April 19, 2024 • 29 mins
Episode 165. If you hear the term "CEL-24" and the first thing you think of is prison, and not a sake yeast, I don't think anyone would blame you. But today we're here to spread the word on CEL-24 sake yeast and it's role in bringing us some of the most fruit-driven sake aromas on the planet. Developed in Kochi prefecture in the 90's, CEL-24 was a response to the market demands for more aromatic and fruity sake styles. And after tasting a CEL-24 sake for ourselves, we can say that the apple, pineapple and other fruit aromas are strong and powerful as promised. Yeast can have a big impact on a sake's aromatics and CEL-24 yeast really shows this to be true. Join us as we explore the world of sake yeast and perhaps push the boundary of how fruity a sake can be! #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Puma (00:21):
Hello everybody.
And welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast, and I'm your host, John
Puma from the Sake Notes.
Also the administrator over atthe internet sake discord and
lead mod at Reddit's rslash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:38):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I am a Sake Samurai.
I'm a sake educator, as well asthe founder of the Urban Sake
website.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it Fun.
And easy to understand.
Hello, John.
John Puma (00:55):
Tim, that was a, that was a little bumpy or open than
we're used to.
It feels like we haven't donethis in a while.
Timothy Sullivan (01:02):
Speak for yourself.
a seasoned professional.
John Puma (01:05):
Well, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah.
No, we are, we are both seasonedprofessionals.
Um, but I think that, uh, Ithink we're going to take a
brief moment here and addressthe small elephant in the room.
Timothy Sullivan (01:14):
no,
John Puma (01:15):
that is our.
Timothy Sullivan (01:16):
It's, it's, it's a, it's a tiny little puppy
in the corner.
Not an elephant.
John Puma (01:21):
the puppy in the corner, the puppy in the sake
education corner, um,
Timothy Sullivan (01:25):
We've been away.
John Puma (01:26):
is that we haven't done this in a while.
We haven't recorded a newepisode in a little bit and
it's, you know, it's, it'snothing, I just want to say
nothing bad has happened to Timor I.
We're, we're still doing ourthing.
We're still.
Uh, you know, we're still livinglife and still, we're happy and
healthy, but, um, uh, our, ourprofessional lives, our day
jobs, so to speak, had somereally large projects of late,
Timothy Sullivan (01:49):
Yes,
John Puma (01:50):
and it's, it's made, uh, doing the show a little bit
more difficult than it had been,uh, in the past.
Right, Tim?
Timothy Sullivan (01:57):
absolutely.
Yeah.
So I've been working on a bigproject out at Brooklyn Kura.
We opened the Sake StudiesCenter and we've been developing
programming and holding classes.
And that's been a whole bigproject, but very rewarding and
very fun.
And hopefully we'll have somecollabs with the Sake Studies
(02:17):
Center soon.
Uh, but you and I, John are backin the saddle, aren't we?
John Puma (02:22):
We are.
The saddle is the chair at mydesk at my home.
And, uh, and we're here.
I, I'm sitting, I've got mymicrophone, I've got my
headphones.
There's a wine glass and abottle of sake next to me.
I am ready to get back into it.
Timothy Sullivan (02:36):
All right.
Well, what could be moreexciting and more thrilling for
our listeners than talking aboutsake yeast?
John Puma (02:44):
So, so hang on, hang on a second.
So we have so many series onthis show.
We've got series devoted torice, drinking vessels, well,
you know, everything under thesun.
And we never really delved intoyeast,
Timothy Sullivan (03:00):
we did have one episode on flower yeast,
remember?
John Puma (03:04):
we did have.
Yeah, yeah.
But that wasn't like, we weren'tstarting a series.
That was just a fun one off.
Wasn't it?
Timothy Sullivan (03:10):
it, was a
John Puma (03:10):
or was it stealthily?
It was secret, the secret originof our new series.
Timothy Sullivan (03:18):
My evil plan worked perfectly.
John Puma (03:21):
goodness, Timothy, what have you been doing?
Timothy Sullivan (03:23):
I tricked you into a new series without your
approval.
John Puma (03:27):
So here we are with a new series about sake yeast, I
guess, is that what that wasofficially is happening now?
Timothy Sullivan (03:34):
It's official now.
There are many varieties of sakeyeast, and it may not be the
sexiest topic on the surface,but we're going to make it
interesting, aren't we?
We'll see.
John Puma (03:45):
I think, yes, it is not the sexiest topic on the
surface, but one thing I dothink is that it's kind of
important.
I think it's underrated.
We always talk about howimportant rice is and
regionality and, but the yeastis like kind of where a lot of
the aroma and the flavor comefrom, isn't it?
Right.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (04:05):
Yes, yeast is incredibly important when it
comes to the aroma of the sake.
So maybe we should talk justreally briefly about what yeast
is and what it does for peoplewho are just getting started
understanding alcoholicfermentation, but yeast is one
of the microorganisms that'sinvolved in making alcohol and
(04:25):
it's used in wine, beer, andsake.
And what we do with the yeast,the yeast is put into the, uh,
the the mash, and it eats sugarand then metabolizes it and
gives off alcohol and CO2.
And that is what I call theengine of fermentation.
So it's a microorganism thatbasically makes the alcohol as a
(04:46):
byproduct of its metabolism.
John Puma (04:49):
Right.
wouldn't that be a funsuperpower to have in your
metabolism?
Timothy Sullivan (04:54):
Well, there's, there's all different kinds of
sake yeast in Japan, and most ofthem are numbered.
If they're, if they're, Ifthey're maintained by the, um,
the Kyokai or the BrewersAssociation of Japan, they have
a number, like there's a yeastnumber seven, there's a yeast
number nine, there's a yeastnumber 1801, and those can be
(05:15):
purchased if you have a brewinglicense in Japan.
And they all have differentcharacteristics and brewers are
just going to, you know, usuallypurchase the type of yeast that
fits the style of sake they wantto make.
But today we're going to talkabout Something a little
different.
John Puma (05:32):
Uh, second episode about on the yeast topic and
we're already doing weird stuff.
I like it.
Timothy Sullivan (05:36):
Yes.
this is connected to the GinjoBoom.
Have you, have you ever heardabout the Ginjo
John Puma (05:42):
ginjo boom.
That's my rap name.
That's now that's
Timothy Sullivan (05:51):
DJ Ginjo Boom.
We are
John Puma (05:52):
that's it.
That's my, that's my DJ.
That's my DJ name.
Ginjo boom.
Timothy Sullivan (05:56):
We are not cutting that out.
All right.
Okay.
Mr.
Boom.
John Puma (06:02):
Anyway,
Timothy Sullivan (06:03):
So you obviously got your rap name from
the real Ginjo Boom, right?
John Puma (06:09):
obviously now, I mean, you know, I have a
reputation for enjoying big,fun, aromatic sake and so yeah,
ginjo.
Timothy Sullivan (06:20):
Well, in the late eighties and early
nineties, there was a, there wasan economic boom in Japan.
Real estate prices were throughthe roof and there was lots of
money being made.
And there was a demand suddenlyfor more aromatic, more quote
unquote, modern styles of sake.
And What happened was that a lotof the larger breweries kind of
(06:41):
had a stranglehold on the yeastthat were used to make these
more fragrant modern styles.
And when we say ginjo styles,what are we talking about, John?
John Puma (06:53):
We're talking big, fruity, the, the, the fruit
bombs.
Timothy Sullivan (06:57):
Yes.
Lots of pineapple, banana, andapple, right?
John Puma (07:00):
Ooh, Yes.
Timothy Sullivan (07:02):
Yes.
And I know that's very much aswe say, your wheelhouse, as
we've said
John Puma (07:08):
it is on brand for me is what it is.
Timothy Sullivan (07:13):
some of the other prefectures or areas were
wanting to get in on this ginjoboom and produce these types of
sakes and the yeast were not asreadily available.
So one of your favoriteprefectures, John, Kochi, we're
going to talk about KochiPrefecture.
John Puma (07:33):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (07:34):
You've been there.
I've been there.
John Puma (07:36):
Yes, We do.
We do.
But the thing is that Kochi isso known for.
Kind of dry sake.
They've got a rep, right?
Is that, is that, is that a goodway to put it?
They have a reputation.
They have a, you know, obviouslythere's a, there's, there's
exceptions to every rule, butkind of like when you think of
Niigata, you've got that kind oflike that light, classic sake.
(07:58):
When you think of Kochi, youthink of something really dry.
It's going to go with food.
Timothy Sullivan (08:01):
Yes.
They do have a reputation forproducing dry sake, but they
also have a reputation nowafter, yeah, uh, for producing,
uh, really fruity and juicysake.
And The Kochi PerfecturalIndustrial Technology Center
(08:22):
just rolls off the tongue, butthat institute was tasked with
finding a fruit forward.
yeast that they could use in theprefecture.
And in 1993, they developed atype of yeast, two yeasts
(08:42):
actually.
One is called CEL 19 and one iscalled CEL 24.
That's the letters C E L.
I know it sounds like somethingyou'd find in a jail, but um,
this is,
John Puma (08:56):
There's only one L in this one, Tim.
Timothy Sullivan (08:59):
This is what they, um, they've, they decided
to call the yeast strain.
So we're going to be talking inparticular about CEL-24 today.
So this was developed in Kochiby the scientists at the
Prefectural IndustrialTechnology Center in the early
nineties.
And it had some characteristicsthat.
(09:20):
really turned up the volume onwhat they wanted.
John Puma (09:25):
Yeah.
Um, it's almost like they werelike, Oh, Dry sake, huh?
We've got dry sake.
I'll show you dry.
And then they went and made thisextremely fruity, big, bold
yeast, or rather, I'm sorry,this, this yeast that makes
extremely big, bold flavors.
It's a, um, it's kind ofinteresting.
It almost feels like they weretrying to, um, play against type
(09:45):
in a way that they, you know,they're like, well, we've got
this style down.
Let's do this other thing.
Um, and then, and then, andwe've got it.
But the early nineties is notthat long ago.
So this is a, uh, would you sayit's like a young yeast then?
Does that, is that, you know?
Timothy Sullivan (10:00):
I think so.
I mean, we, we talked
John Puma (10:02):
like 31 years.
That's not too bad.
Timothy Sullivan (10:04):
Yeah.
When we talked about Masumi, wetalked about yeast number seven
in our Masumi episode, right?
Yeah.
And that was in the post warperiod, I think, that they
discovered yeast number seven.
So there, there is acharacteristic that CEL-24 gives
to the sake and we're going toget a little scientific y right
(10:26):
now, but this is called, haveyou ever heard of ethyl
caproate?
John Puma (10:30):
Once or twice.
Timothy Sullivan (10:32):
Okay.
This is like an aroma compoundthat is in the sake and it is
One of the key aromas for ginjoor fruity style.
This one is known particularlywhen you have a high ethyl
caproate compounds in the sake.
(10:52):
You get fruity aromas, sweetaromas, and especially apple
like aromas.
So it's a, very concentratedappley, apple peel, apple aroma,
and it's The CEL-24 was,developed in such a way to have
double the ethyl caproate ofother sake yeasts.
John Puma (11:15):
So the go big or go home?
Timothy Sullivan (11:17):
Absolutely.
You know, they turned the, uh,they turned the, they turned the
speaker up to 11 with ethylcaproate.
Yes.
So.
John Puma (11:29):
Wow.
Timothy Sullivan (11:31):
Yeah, so they asked for, uh, I actually heard
a story.
I don't know if this is true,but I heard a story that the
scientist who developed CEL-24,um, Haruhiko Uehigashi, he
worked at the, the KochiPrefectural Center.
I heard that.
(11:51):
He actually is not the biggestfan of sake made with the yeast
he discovered.
It's too fruity for him and it'stoo juicy and over-the-top.
John Puma (12:01):
Hmm.
Hey, you know,
Timothy Sullivan (12:02):
yeah.To
John Puma (12:04):
each their own.
I don't want to, I don't want totell the man what he's allowed
to like, but it's a littleironic that he ended up not
being a fan
Timothy Sullivan (12:13):
But he gave the people what they asked for,
right?
John Puma (12:17):
that he did.
You know, you want something bigand fruity.
We got that.
We can, we can make this happen.
Timothy Sullivan (12:23):
All right, now there are a number of sakes.
that use CEL-24 and we're goingto focus in on one in particular
today, aren't we?
John Puma (12:33):
We are.
when I think of CEL-24 in the U.
S., this is the one that comesto mind.
and as you pointed out, we'redealing with Kochi.
So the sake is from
Timothy Sullivan (12:41):
Has to come from Kochi.
John Puma (12:43):
has to come.
So no, wait, wait, wait.
So no, they're not distributingor they're not sharing this
yeast with any breweries outsideof Kochi.
That's interesting.
It's not shocking, but it'sinteresting.
Timothy Sullivan (12:52):
I think CEL-24 is a Kochi prefectural
John Puma (12:55):
Wow.
Timothy Sullivan (12:58):
Yeah.
John Puma (12:59):
kind of cool.
I like that.
Like the guy, you know, thatthey're keeping it, they're
keeping it, keeping it close tothe vest.
Uh,
Timothy Sullivan (13:08):
Yeah.
So let's, let's look at thesake.
What brewery do we have here?
John Puma (13:14):
so, this is, Kamezumi Shuzo over in Kochi, Kochi, of
course on.
Shikoku Island down in SouthernJapan.
and this is their, Junmai,Ginjo, Nama, Genshu.
So kitchen sink on there withall the names,
Timothy Sullivan (13:32):
That's my line.
John Puma (13:34):
I know I'm stealing it.
Um, CEL-24, the name they'regiving it here is Eternal
Spring.
I kind of like that.
What do you think of EternalSpring?
It has a nice ring to it.
Timothy Sullivan (13:46):
That has to refer to the juicy, fruity,
spring like characteristics ofthis.
Like you can, you can tap intospringtime any, anytime you want
by drinking this
John Puma (13:56):
Yes.
Now, can we take a moment hereand talk about this label?
Because it's very interesting.
It's very unique.
Timothy Sullivan (14:02):
So I do have some intel on this label.
John Puma (14:04):
Ooh, okay.
Timothy Sullivan (14:05):
so for those of you listening, please check
out SakeRevolution.Com to see aphoto of the bottle and this
label we're about to talk about.
But the label is designed insuch a way where it's just like
handwritten the name of thesake, the stats, and there's a
little red stamp that saysunpasteurized sake or Nama sake,
(14:28):
and it looks like almostunfinished label.
And according to the Jotowebsite, the.
Sake was so popular and in suchdemand when it came out that
they didn't have time to designa label.
They just had their internalhandwritten stats on the label
for, you know, the internal use.
(14:50):
And they just went with that forthe commercial label because
they didn't have time to designand print.
A label.
So it looks very hand drawn,doesn't it?
John Puma (15:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I've seen other, I'veseen other brands do similar,
similar styles, but I think thatin my mind, I think Kameizumi
might be like kind of the first,um, or at least it's, it's the
one that I think of.
I love how it looks.
So it just looks like somebodygrabbed a marker and just wrote
all the stats down on the front.
Uh, it's, it's very interesting.
It's very, um, striking.
(15:22):
however, uh, For people in theStates, there's one thing that
we want to explain, though, thatthere is really no English on
the front of this label, though.
Uh, you do have to flip itaround to the back to see, um,
what you're dealing with.
Timothy Sullivan (15:33):
but it's a very striking
John Puma (15:35):
Oh, but you're not yet.
It's very striking.
You can see the one with all thestats on it out there is the
only, uh, like Romaji, the onlylike, English lettering is the
cell in CEL-24.
So if you find the CEL-24, youhave found it.
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
Yes.
Yes.
Um, so it does look like ahandwritten label and that's the
story that they had to rush itto market and didn't have time
to design a label.
So they just went with theirinternal label.
Internal label, which I thoughtwas really cool.
John Puma (16:06):
That is amazing.
Timothy Sullivan (16:08):
Yeah.
So what about the stats on this?
We know what the yeast is.
We know the yeast is CEL-24.
Uh, what else do we got?
John Puma (16:15):
well, I'm glad we established that part.
So, uh, the rice here is aHattan-Nishiki and me.
So, uh, Hattan-Nishiki we'vetalked about plenty of times and
I think actually we spotlightedit.
Once, um, it's, it's oftenassociated with Hiroshima, which
is very nearby.
Uh, and I am unfamiliarpersonally with Matsuyama me.
(16:38):
they have been, polished down to50 percent of their original
size.
Timothy Sullivan (16:43):
The only, the only intel I have on Matsuyama
Mei is that it comes from EhimePrefecture.
Yes.
John Puma (16:52):
So they're borrowing some, some outside rice.
Timothy Sullivan (16:54):
Other than that, I don't know much, but I
did read that the Matsuyama Meirice that they use for this sake
is from Ehime.
John Puma (17:02):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Thank you.
the ABV on this is 14.
So even though we said, uh, youknow, it's, oh, it's a nama
genshu and blah, blah, blah.
Genshu does mean kind of your,your quote, unquote, your cask
strength, your, your undiluted,uh, Um, doesn't mean that it's
high in alcohol.
It just means they didn't addwater to it.
Uh, and so in this case, 14%, sothat's a touch low.
(17:23):
And here's where we have thefun, the nihonshu do, the sake
meter value, that measure of dryto sweet, where you go low, you
go sweet.
And this is minus 17.
This, we should have featuredthis on the extreme series.
Timothy Sullivan (17:41):
That's not that
John Puma (17:42):
It's not that I know it, but all we use for extreme
was actually far more.
Uh, and then the acidity is two,which is also high, uh, and, and
may counterbalance that nihonshudo just a tad that sake meter
value.
one other bit that we don'tusually get this bit of
information, but I like thatthey added it, the shubo method
is a sokujo, So Like, like mostsake, it's Like 90, percent sake
Timothy Sullivan (18:08):
Yeah.
That's great.
All right.
we know this is a Namazake and aGenshu.
So even though it's loweralcohol, there's, um, little to
no water added for that.
And this sake does have areputation, don't you think?
John Puma (18:26):
It does.
It certainly does.
Um, I think we should probablytaste a little bit and I'll talk
about his reputation and compareit to what we're experiencing.
Timothy Sullivan (18:36):
All right.
John Puma (18:37):
All
Timothy Sullivan (18:37):
I'm, I'm on board.
Sold.
John Puma (18:40):
Sold.
It's sold to the man with theheadphones on.
Timothy Sullivan (18:44):
All right, here we go.
I can smell it already.
I just opened the bottle and Ican smell it.
Oh my gosh.
John Puma (18:58):
a ginjo punch in the face is what this is.
Timothy Sullivan (19:01):
is, it's a ginjo ka.
Ginjo ka again means ginjoaroma.
Ginjo ka, punch in the face.
I think that, that is, uh, one
John Puma (19:12):
It's just, it's just a lot.
Timothy Sullivan (19:13):
Yeah.
John Puma (19:15):
Um, I mean, I, I like my, my ginjo aromas as much as
the next guy, possibly more thanthe next guy, but this is
intense.
It's all, it is so much,
Timothy Sullivan (19:24):
John and I both have this in the glass and
we're going to give it a smell.
Bring it to the nose.
John Puma (19:30):
is
Timothy Sullivan (19:30):
right.
It's a very big aroma, first ofall, very perfumed, lots of
aroma pouring out of the glass.
And what I smell is a lot of,fruity notes primarily.
There's, um, apple, there'sbanana, Pineapple as well.
I'm getting a lot of pineapplesmell.
(19:51):
Some strawberry as well.
Very much a fruit salad onsteroids.
Turned up to 11.
Juicy, juicy
John Puma (20:02):
Very, it smells like it's going to be juicy.
It's one of those things.
It's just got that, yeah, thatfruit salad up.
Yeah, it's just, it's also alittle jammy to me.
Like it's like it's, it's fruitsalad and maybe a little pure
little fruit puree.
You know what I mean?
Timothy Sullivan (20:15):
Strawberry preserves.
John Puma (20:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it is, it is big and likeit's, it is, it's a lot.
Now we've,
Timothy Sullivan (20:25):
we talked about the ethyl caproate, which
is that apple and fruity aroma.
But there's also another factorthat is produced, and that is
malic acid.
And so
John Puma (20:42):
acid before.
Timothy Sullivan (20:44):
so we said the acidity was a 2.
0, um, which is just a touch onthe, the high end of the scale
for the average.
Um, but we want to keep thatwhen we taste this as well, we
want to keep an eye out for theacidity on the palate and, um,
see how those fruit flavors andacidity transfer to what we
(21:05):
taste.
So you ready to give it a taste?
John Puma (21:07):
Let's do it.
Timothy Sullivan (21:08):
All right.
Hmm.
Okay.
It tastes like a liquid fruitroll up to me.
John Puma (21:16):
Laughter That is a very astute observation, Tim.
Laughter And now, I can't thinkof anything else.
Laughter Yeah, I think that'sit's on the nose.
Timothy Sullivan (21:30):
Yeah,
John Puma (21:31):
Mm,
Timothy Sullivan (21:33):
yeah, it has a, that Jolly Rancher fruit roll
up fruitiness.
Intense, concentrated, jammy,rich.
Um, there's melon, again,pineapple, lots of pineapple for
me.
Um, some strawberry preserves.
(21:54):
Some smuckers action going onwith the palate.
John Puma (21:56):
action going on.
I agree, um, but it's It's, it'sintense.
And there's also, there's like,there's, there's, there's some
gas in here still.
So you can feel that a littlebit.
The mouth feel is, is nice.
The ni the mouth feel is, um,one of the more interesting
things and I think it, itdistracts nicely from the
(22:19):
intensity of the fruit.
I think that the, um, I thinkthat without the mouthfeel, it
might just be like, too much.
that tiny bit of effervescencereally goes a long way towards
balancing it out.
Timothy Sullivan (22:31):
I will say it's delicious.
But it is, there's a lot ofsweetness here too, right?
Yeah.
It's, it's quite sweet and verycoating on the palate and it's
just, it's an intense sake
John Puma (22:48):
Yeah, this is not, to me at least, this is not a sake
that I am going to be sippingand then, oh wow, where did the
bottle go?
Because it's, you're, you'reaware of how much of it you're
drinking.
It's a lot.
Not that you're drinking a lotof it, but the flavor is a lot.
It's very intense.
It coats the mouth.
It's, it is in charge.
Timothy Sullivan (23:10):
Yeah.
I never do this, but I'm goingto make a wine comparison.
Like I, I'm, I'm usually againstthis, but I'm going to break my
own rule
John Puma (23:18):
Oh my goodness.
Timothy Sullivan (23:20):
has like, the weight and the body and the
punch in the face of like a bigtannic red wine.
And if you compare that to likea light, clean sipping white
wine for summer, that's drier.
And you know, it's like thatkind of a difference with the,
the, the body, the aroma, theperfume, the weight is all just
(23:45):
super intense and
John Puma (23:47):
I get exactly what you're
Timothy Sullivan (23:48):
on top of that, it's like, this is a rich,
a rich, fruity sake.
And this is going to be a bigattract, attraction for some
types of consumers.
But I think other consumers whomay be like clean, light, easy
drinking, sipping sakes, thismay be too bold, too rich.
John Puma (24:09):
This, this, yes, perhaps if you, you know, are a
scientist who makes yeast andmade this, you may be like, Hmm,
not my thing.
Yeah, no, this is definitely notfor everybody.
I don't think any sake isnecessarily for everybody.
Um, but I think that this one isespecially, it's going to have
its fans and they're going tolove it.
and then it's going to havepeople who, who thinks it, who
(24:30):
think it's, um, you know, Verytasty and fun to sip on.
I think that I fit into thatcategory and I think you're
going to find people who thinkit's just, it's just too much,
you know?
And I, and for me, like I'm,I'm, I'm in the enjoying it,
having a good time.
Um, category.
I'm like, where, where do youfit in on that?
Timothy Sullivan (24:51):
love nama sake.
I love unpasteurized sake.
I love fruity sake, but I thinkthat this type of nama sake is
really best consumed super,super, super fresh to get the
most enjoyment out of the, theethyl caproate fruitiness that's
John Puma (25:10):
hmm.
I think I know exactly what youmean.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (25:15):
Um, but hey, Kochi Prefecture ordered some
Super over the top fruity yeastand the Kochi Prefectural
Industrial Technology Center,they delivered.
John Puma (25:29):
They definitely
Timothy Sullivan (25:30):
they ordered.
John Puma (25:31):
They did.
They didn't, you know, it's becareful what you wish for,
because uh, this is exactly whatit is.
One thing is I thought therewere only like a handful of
CEL-24 sake is cause I reallyhad only seen a handful.
And then when I was in Kochi, Ifound out that most of the
breweries there haveexperimented with CEL-24 at some
point or another.
And then if you look around,you'll find.
Uh, you'll find bottles thatthey've, uh, that they've done,
(25:54):
and, and the, the vibe is alittle different off of them,
even though they're still bigand loud, you can't, this is not
a yeast that can be tamed by anystretch of the imagination, but
you can bring it down a notchand, and control it a little
bit, I think, I had one fromBijofu that I thought was a lot
of fun.
Um, that was a little bit, itwas a little bit muted next to
(26:16):
this.
So it was a little bit more myspeed, but it was still really
sweet.
Um, and, and it's still, it'sstill quite the, the fruit
explosion.
I'm going beyond fruit bomb,Tim.
This is fruit explosion,
Timothy Sullivan (26:29):
Yes.
one other, point about CEL-24that I read is that it produces
alcohol very slowly, so theycannot reach the higher alcohol
levels with CEL-24.
John Puma (26:45):
so that's why it's 14%.
Timothy Sullivan (26:47):
It is very fruity, geared more towards
lower alcohol sakes.
Um, so that may be anotherreason why we're, we're clocking
in here at 14 percent and it'sstill a genshu or undiluted.
John Puma (27:03):
Very nice.
Timothy Sullivan (27:04):
Okay, John.
Well, you know, for being awayfor a little bit, I think you
know, it's like riding a bike,
John Puma (27:11):
was about to say that too.
It is like riding a bike andit's, and honestly, it's really
good to be back.
It's so nice to be doing thiswith you again.
I really
Timothy Sullivan (27:21):
Absolutely.
I am so glad to be sharing this.
Super fruity Puma WheelhouseSake with you today.
John Puma (27:30):
more than the wheelhouse.
This is.
The wheel, the house is full.
No, it is delicious though.
Timothy Sullivan (27:38):
yeah, it is delicious.
Uh, it was so great to tastewith you, John.
And, I'm, very happy to be backbehind the microphone and, uh,
so happy to, have all of ourlisteners tuning in again.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
I want to send a special thankyou to all of our patrons as
well.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting Sake Revolution
(28:02):
podcasts, please visitPatreon.com/SakeRevolution to
learn more.
John Puma (28:08):
And remember that every episode of Sake Revolution
comes complete with show notes.
Show notes have a transcript ofeverything we talked about.
They have photos usually of thelabels and photos of labels
really important, especiallywhen you're dealing with a sake
like this, which has a fun andunique label.
So get over to the site andcheck that out.
Uh, we've a link to our shopthere where you can buy things
(28:30):
like stickers and t shirts and,um, well, we're not dealing with
work projects.
One of these days we're going toadd more stuff.
That's, that's the plan.
That's on the, that's, that's onmy 2024 roadmap.
So Tim, on that note, pleasegrab your glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand.
Kampai!
Hello everybody.
And welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first sakepodcast, and I'm your host, John
Puma from the Sake Notes.
Also the administrator over atthe internet sake discord and
lead mod at Reddit's rslash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:38):
And I'm your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I am a Sake Samurai.
I'm a sake educator, as well asthe founder of the Urban Sake
website.
And every week, John and I willbe here tasting and chatting
about all things sake and doingour best to make it Fun.
And easy to understand.
Hello, John.
John Puma (00:55):
Tim, that was a, that was a little bumpy or open than
we're used to.
It feels like we haven't donethis in a while.
Timothy Sullivan (01:02):
Speak for yourself.
a seasoned professional.
John Puma (01:05):
Well, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah.
No, we are, we are both seasonedprofessionals.
Um, but I think that, uh, Ithink we're going to take a
brief moment here and addressthe small elephant in the room.
Timothy Sullivan (01:14):
no,
John Puma (01:15):
that is our.
Timothy Sullivan (01:16):
It's, it's, it's a, it's a tiny little puppy
in the corner.
Not an elephant.
John Puma (01:21):
the puppy in the corner, the puppy in the sake
education corner, um,
Timothy Sullivan (01:25):
We've been away.
John Puma (01:26):
is that we haven't done this in a while.
We haven't recorded a newepisode in a little bit and
it's, you know, it's, it'snothing, I just want to say
nothing bad has happened to Timor I.
We're, we're still doing ourthing.
We're still.
Uh, you know, we're still livinglife and still, we're happy and
healthy, but, um, uh, our, ourprofessional lives, our day
jobs, so to speak, had somereally large projects of late,
Timothy Sullivan (01:49):
Yes,
John Puma (01:50):
and it's, it's made, uh, doing the show a little bit
more difficult than it had been,uh, in the past.
Right, Tim?
Timothy Sullivan (01:57):
absolutely.
Yeah.
So I've been working on a bigproject out at Brooklyn Kura.
We opened the Sake StudiesCenter and we've been developing
programming and holding classes.
And that's been a whole bigproject, but very rewarding and
very fun.
And hopefully we'll have somecollabs with the Sake Studies
(02:17):
Center soon.
Uh, but you and I, John are backin the saddle, aren't we?
John Puma (02:22):
We are.
The saddle is the chair at mydesk at my home.
And, uh, and we're here.
I, I'm sitting, I've got mymicrophone, I've got my
headphones.
There's a wine glass and abottle of sake next to me.
I am ready to get back into it.
Timothy Sullivan (02:36):
All right.
Well, what could be moreexciting and more thrilling for
our listeners than talking aboutsake yeast?
John Puma (02:44):
So, so hang on, hang on a second.
So we have so many series onthis show.
We've got series devoted torice, drinking vessels, well,
you know, everything under thesun.
And we never really delved intoyeast,
Timothy Sullivan (03:00):
we did have one episode on flower yeast,
remember?
John Puma (03:04):
we did have.
Yeah, yeah.
But that wasn't like, we weren'tstarting a series.
That was just a fun one off.
Wasn't it?
Timothy Sullivan (03:10):
it, was a
John Puma (03:10):
or was it stealthily?
It was secret, the secret originof our new series.
Timothy Sullivan (03:18):
My evil plan worked perfectly.
John Puma (03:21):
goodness, Timothy, what have you been doing?
Timothy Sullivan (03:23):
I tricked you into a new series without your
approval.
John Puma (03:27):
So here we are with a new series about sake yeast, I
guess, is that what that wasofficially is happening now?
Timothy Sullivan (03:34):
It's official now.
There are many varieties of sakeyeast, and it may not be the
sexiest topic on the surface,but we're going to make it
interesting, aren't we?
We'll see.
John Puma (03:45):
I think, yes, it is not the sexiest topic on the
surface, but one thing I dothink is that it's kind of
important.
I think it's underrated.
We always talk about howimportant rice is and
regionality and, but the yeastis like kind of where a lot of
the aroma and the flavor comefrom, isn't it?
Right.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (04:05):
Yes, yeast is incredibly important when it
comes to the aroma of the sake.
So maybe we should talk justreally briefly about what yeast
is and what it does for peoplewho are just getting started
understanding alcoholicfermentation, but yeast is one
of the microorganisms that'sinvolved in making alcohol and
(04:25):
it's used in wine, beer, andsake.
And what we do with the yeast,the yeast is put into the, uh,
the the mash, and it eats sugarand then metabolizes it and
gives off alcohol and CO2.
And that is what I call theengine of fermentation.
So it's a microorganism thatbasically makes the alcohol as a
(04:46):
byproduct of its metabolism.
John Puma (04:49):
Right.
wouldn't that be a funsuperpower to have in your
metabolism?
Timothy Sullivan (04:54):
Well, there's, there's all different kinds of
sake yeast in Japan, and most ofthem are numbered.
If they're, if they're, Ifthey're maintained by the, um,
the Kyokai or the BrewersAssociation of Japan, they have
a number, like there's a yeastnumber seven, there's a yeast
number nine, there's a yeastnumber 1801, and those can be
(05:15):
purchased if you have a brewinglicense in Japan.
And they all have differentcharacteristics and brewers are
just going to, you know, usuallypurchase the type of yeast that
fits the style of sake they wantto make.
But today we're going to talkabout Something a little
different.
John Puma (05:32):
Uh, second episode about on the yeast topic and
we're already doing weird stuff.
I like it.
Timothy Sullivan (05:36):
Yes.
this is connected to the GinjoBoom.
Have you, have you ever heardabout the Ginjo
John Puma (05:42):
ginjo boom.
That's my rap name.
That's now that's
Timothy Sullivan (05:51):
DJ Ginjo Boom.
We are
John Puma (05:52):
that's it.
That's my, that's my DJ.
That's my DJ name.
Ginjo boom.
Timothy Sullivan (05:56):
We are not cutting that out.
All right.
Okay.
Mr.
Boom.
John Puma (06:02):
Anyway,
Timothy Sullivan (06:03):
So you obviously got your rap name from
the real Ginjo Boom, right?
John Puma (06:09):
obviously now, I mean, you know, I have a
reputation for enjoying big,fun, aromatic sake and so yeah,
ginjo.
Timothy Sullivan (06:20):
Well, in the late eighties and early
nineties, there was a, there wasan economic boom in Japan.
Real estate prices were throughthe roof and there was lots of
money being made.
And there was a demand suddenlyfor more aromatic, more quote
unquote, modern styles of sake.
And What happened was that a lotof the larger breweries kind of
(06:41):
had a stranglehold on the yeastthat were used to make these
more fragrant modern styles.
And when we say ginjo styles,what are we talking about, John?
John Puma (06:53):
We're talking big, fruity, the, the, the fruit
bombs.
Timothy Sullivan (06:57):
Yes.
Lots of pineapple, banana, andapple, right?
John Puma (07:00):
Ooh, Yes.
Timothy Sullivan (07:02):
Yes.
And I know that's very much aswe say, your wheelhouse, as
we've said
John Puma (07:08):
it is on brand for me is what it is.
Timothy Sullivan (07:13):
some of the other prefectures or areas were
wanting to get in on this ginjoboom and produce these types of
sakes and the yeast were not asreadily available.
So one of your favoriteprefectures, John, Kochi, we're
going to talk about KochiPrefecture.
John Puma (07:33):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (07:34):
You've been there.
I've been there.
John Puma (07:36):
Yes, We do.
We do.
But the thing is that Kochi isso known for.
Kind of dry sake.
They've got a rep, right?
Is that, is that, is that a goodway to put it?
They have a reputation.
They have a, you know, obviouslythere's a, there's, there's
exceptions to every rule, butkind of like when you think of
Niigata, you've got that kind oflike that light, classic sake.
(07:58):
When you think of Kochi, youthink of something really dry.
It's going to go with food.
Timothy Sullivan (08:01):
Yes.
They do have a reputation forproducing dry sake, but they
also have a reputation nowafter, yeah, uh, for producing,
uh, really fruity and juicysake.
And The Kochi PerfecturalIndustrial Technology Center
(08:22):
just rolls off the tongue, butthat institute was tasked with
finding a fruit forward.
yeast that they could use in theprefecture.
And in 1993, they developed atype of yeast, two yeasts
(08:42):
actually.
One is called CEL 19 and one iscalled CEL 24.
That's the letters C E L.
I know it sounds like somethingyou'd find in a jail, but um,
this is,
John Puma (08:56):
There's only one L in this one, Tim.
Timothy Sullivan (08:59):
This is what they, um, they've, they decided
to call the yeast strain.
So we're going to be talking inparticular about CEL-24 today.
So this was developed in Kochiby the scientists at the
Prefectural IndustrialTechnology Center in the early
nineties.
And it had some characteristicsthat.
(09:20):
really turned up the volume onwhat they wanted.
John Puma (09:25):
Yeah.
Um, it's almost like they werelike, Oh, Dry sake, huh?
We've got dry sake.
I'll show you dry.
And then they went and made thisextremely fruity, big, bold
yeast, or rather, I'm sorry,this, this yeast that makes
extremely big, bold flavors.
It's a, um, it's kind ofinteresting.
It almost feels like they weretrying to, um, play against type
(09:45):
in a way that they, you know,they're like, well, we've got
this style down.
Let's do this other thing.
Um, and then, and then, andwe've got it.
But the early nineties is notthat long ago.
So this is a, uh, would you sayit's like a young yeast then?
Does that, is that, you know?
Timothy Sullivan (10:00):
I think so.
I mean, we, we talked
John Puma (10:02):
like 31 years.
That's not too bad.
Timothy Sullivan (10:04):
Yeah.
When we talked about Masumi, wetalked about yeast number seven
in our Masumi episode, right?
Yeah.
And that was in the post warperiod, I think, that they
discovered yeast number seven.
So there, there is acharacteristic that CEL-24 gives
to the sake and we're going toget a little scientific y right
(10:26):
now, but this is called, haveyou ever heard of ethyl
caproate?
John Puma (10:30):
Once or twice.
Timothy Sullivan (10:32):
Okay.
This is like an aroma compoundthat is in the sake and it is
One of the key aromas for ginjoor fruity style.
This one is known particularlywhen you have a high ethyl
caproate compounds in the sake.
(10:52):
You get fruity aromas, sweetaromas, and especially apple
like aromas.
So it's a, very concentratedappley, apple peel, apple aroma,
and it's The CEL-24 was,developed in such a way to have
double the ethyl caproate ofother sake yeasts.
John Puma (11:15):
So the go big or go home?
Timothy Sullivan (11:17):
Absolutely.
You know, they turned the, uh,they turned the, they turned the
speaker up to 11 with ethylcaproate.
Yes.
So.
John Puma (11:29):
Wow.
Timothy Sullivan (11:31):
Yeah, so they asked for, uh, I actually heard
a story.
I don't know if this is true,but I heard a story that the
scientist who developed CEL-24,um, Haruhiko Uehigashi, he
worked at the, the KochiPrefectural Center.
I heard that.
(11:51):
He actually is not the biggestfan of sake made with the yeast
he discovered.
It's too fruity for him and it'stoo juicy and over-the-top.
John Puma (12:01):
Hmm.
Hey, you know,
Timothy Sullivan (12:02):
yeah.To
John Puma (12:04):
each their own.
I don't want to, I don't want totell the man what he's allowed
to like, but it's a littleironic that he ended up not
being a fan
Timothy Sullivan (12:13):
But he gave the people what they asked for,
right?
John Puma (12:17):
that he did.
You know, you want something bigand fruity.
We got that.
We can, we can make this happen.
Timothy Sullivan (12:23):
All right, now there are a number of sakes.
that use CEL-24 and we're goingto focus in on one in particular
today, aren't we?
John Puma (12:33):
We are.
when I think of CEL-24 in the U.
S., this is the one that comesto mind.
and as you pointed out, we'redealing with Kochi.
So the sake is from
Timothy Sullivan (12:41):
Has to come from Kochi.
John Puma (12:43):
has to come.
So no, wait, wait, wait.
So no, they're not distributingor they're not sharing this
yeast with any breweries outsideof Kochi.
That's interesting.
It's not shocking, but it'sinteresting.
Timothy Sullivan (12:52):
I think CEL-24 is a Kochi prefectural
John Puma (12:55):
Wow.
Timothy Sullivan (12:58):
Yeah.
John Puma (12:59):
kind of cool.
I like that.
Like the guy, you know, thatthey're keeping it, they're
keeping it, keeping it close tothe vest.
Uh,
Timothy Sullivan (13:08):
Yeah.
So let's, let's look at thesake.
What brewery do we have here?
John Puma (13:14):
so, this is, Kamezumi Shuzo over in Kochi, Kochi, of
course on.
Shikoku Island down in SouthernJapan.
and this is their, Junmai,Ginjo, Nama, Genshu.
So kitchen sink on there withall the names,
Timothy Sullivan (13:32):
That's my line.
John Puma (13:34):
I know I'm stealing it.
Um, CEL-24, the name they'regiving it here is Eternal
Spring.
I kind of like that.
What do you think of EternalSpring?
It has a nice ring to it.
Timothy Sullivan (13:46):
That has to refer to the juicy, fruity,
spring like characteristics ofthis.
Like you can, you can tap intospringtime any, anytime you want
by drinking this
John Puma (13:56):
Yes.
Now, can we take a moment hereand talk about this label?
Because it's very interesting.
It's very unique.
Timothy Sullivan (14:02):
So I do have some intel on this label.
John Puma (14:04):
Ooh, okay.
Timothy Sullivan (14:05):
so for those of you listening, please check
out SakeRevolution.Com to see aphoto of the bottle and this
label we're about to talk about.
But the label is designed insuch a way where it's just like
handwritten the name of thesake, the stats, and there's a
little red stamp that saysunpasteurized sake or Nama sake,
(14:28):
and it looks like almostunfinished label.
And according to the Jotowebsite, the.
Sake was so popular and in suchdemand when it came out that
they didn't have time to designa label.
They just had their internalhandwritten stats on the label
for, you know, the internal use.
(14:50):
And they just went with that forthe commercial label because
they didn't have time to designand print.
A label.
So it looks very hand drawn,doesn't it?
John Puma (15:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I've seen other, I'veseen other brands do similar,
similar styles, but I think thatin my mind, I think Kameizumi
might be like kind of the first,um, or at least it's, it's the
one that I think of.
I love how it looks.
So it just looks like somebodygrabbed a marker and just wrote
all the stats down on the front.
Uh, it's, it's very interesting.
It's very, um, striking.
(15:22):
however, uh, For people in theStates, there's one thing that
we want to explain, though, thatthere is really no English on
the front of this label, though.
Uh, you do have to flip itaround to the back to see, um,
what you're dealing with.
Timothy Sullivan (15:33):
but it's a very striking
John Puma (15:35):
Oh, but you're not yet.
It's very striking.
You can see the one with all thestats on it out there is the
only, uh, like Romaji, the onlylike, English lettering is the
cell in CEL-24.
So if you find the CEL-24, youhave found it.
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
Yes.
Yes.
Um, so it does look like ahandwritten label and that's the
story that they had to rush itto market and didn't have time
to design a label.
So they just went with theirinternal label.
Internal label, which I thoughtwas really cool.
John Puma (16:06):
That is amazing.
Timothy Sullivan (16:08):
Yeah.
So what about the stats on this?
We know what the yeast is.
We know the yeast is CEL-24.
Uh, what else do we got?
John Puma (16:15):
well, I'm glad we established that part.
So, uh, the rice here is aHattan-Nishiki and me.
So, uh, Hattan-Nishiki we'vetalked about plenty of times and
I think actually we spotlightedit.
Once, um, it's, it's oftenassociated with Hiroshima, which
is very nearby.
Uh, and I am unfamiliarpersonally with Matsuyama me.
(16:38):
they have been, polished down to50 percent of their original
size.
Timothy Sullivan (16:43):
The only, the only intel I have on Matsuyama
Mei is that it comes from EhimePrefecture.
Yes.
John Puma (16:52):
So they're borrowing some, some outside rice.
Timothy Sullivan (16:54):
Other than that, I don't know much, but I
did read that the Matsuyama Meirice that they use for this sake
is from Ehime.
John Puma (17:02):
Excellent.
Excellent.
Thank you.
the ABV on this is 14.
So even though we said, uh, youknow, it's, oh, it's a nama
genshu and blah, blah, blah.
Genshu does mean kind of your,your quote, unquote, your cask
strength, your, your undiluted,uh, Um, doesn't mean that it's
high in alcohol.
It just means they didn't addwater to it.
Uh, and so in this case, 14%, sothat's a touch low.
(17:23):
And here's where we have thefun, the nihonshu do, the sake
meter value, that measure of dryto sweet, where you go low, you
go sweet.
And this is minus 17.
This, we should have featuredthis on the extreme series.
Timothy Sullivan (17:41):
That's not that
John Puma (17:42):
It's not that I know it, but all we use for extreme
was actually far more.
Uh, and then the acidity is two,which is also high, uh, and, and
may counterbalance that nihonshudo just a tad that sake meter
value.
one other bit that we don'tusually get this bit of
information, but I like thatthey added it, the shubo method
is a sokujo, So Like, like mostsake, it's Like 90, percent sake
Timothy Sullivan (18:08):
Yeah.
That's great.
All right.
we know this is a Namazake and aGenshu.
So even though it's loweralcohol, there's, um, little to
no water added for that.
And this sake does have areputation, don't you think?
John Puma (18:26):
It does.
It certainly does.
Um, I think we should probablytaste a little bit and I'll talk
about his reputation and compareit to what we're experiencing.
Timothy Sullivan (18:36):
All right.
John Puma (18:37):
All
Timothy Sullivan (18:37):
I'm, I'm on board.
Sold.
John Puma (18:40):
Sold.
It's sold to the man with theheadphones on.
Timothy Sullivan (18:44):
All right, here we go.
I can smell it already.
I just opened the bottle and Ican smell it.
Oh my gosh.
John Puma (18:58):
a ginjo punch in the face is what this is.
Timothy Sullivan (19:01):
is, it's a ginjo ka.
Ginjo ka again means ginjoaroma.
Ginjo ka, punch in the face.
I think that, that is, uh, one
John Puma (19:12):
It's just, it's just a lot.
Timothy Sullivan (19:13):
Yeah.
John Puma (19:15):
Um, I mean, I, I like my, my ginjo aromas as much as
the next guy, possibly more thanthe next guy, but this is
intense.
It's all, it is so much,
Timothy Sullivan (19:24):
John and I both have this in the glass and
we're going to give it a smell.
Bring it to the nose.
John Puma (19:30):
is
Timothy Sullivan (19:30):
right.
It's a very big aroma, first ofall, very perfumed, lots of
aroma pouring out of the glass.
And what I smell is a lot of,fruity notes primarily.
There's, um, apple, there'sbanana, Pineapple as well.
I'm getting a lot of pineapplesmell.
(19:51):
Some strawberry as well.
Very much a fruit salad onsteroids.
Turned up to 11.
Juicy, juicy
John Puma (20:02):
Very, it smells like it's going to be juicy.
It's one of those things.
It's just got that, yeah, thatfruit salad up.
Yeah, it's just, it's also alittle jammy to me.
Like it's like it's, it's fruitsalad and maybe a little pure
little fruit puree.
You know what I mean?
Timothy Sullivan (20:15):
Strawberry preserves.
John Puma (20:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it is, it is big and likeit's, it is, it's a lot.
Now we've,
Timothy Sullivan (20:25):
we talked about the ethyl caproate, which
is that apple and fruity aroma.
But there's also another factorthat is produced, and that is
malic acid.
And so
John Puma (20:42):
acid before.
Timothy Sullivan (20:44):
so we said the acidity was a 2.
0, um, which is just a touch onthe, the high end of the scale
for the average.
Um, but we want to keep thatwhen we taste this as well, we
want to keep an eye out for theacidity on the palate and, um,
see how those fruit flavors andacidity transfer to what we
(21:05):
taste.
So you ready to give it a taste?
John Puma (21:07):
Let's do it.
Timothy Sullivan (21:08):
All right.
Hmm.
Okay.
It tastes like a liquid fruitroll up to me.
John Puma (21:16):
Laughter That is a very astute observation, Tim.
Laughter And now, I can't thinkof anything else.
Laughter Yeah, I think that'sit's on the nose.
Timothy Sullivan (21:30):
Yeah,
John Puma (21:31):
Mm,
Timothy Sullivan (21:33):
yeah, it has a, that Jolly Rancher fruit roll
up fruitiness.
Intense, concentrated, jammy,rich.
Um, there's melon, again,pineapple, lots of pineapple for
me.
Um, some strawberry preserves.
(21:54):
Some smuckers action going onwith the palate.
John Puma (21:56):
action going on.
I agree, um, but it's It's, it'sintense.
And there's also, there's like,there's, there's, there's some
gas in here still.
So you can feel that a littlebit.
The mouth feel is, is nice.
The ni the mouth feel is, um,one of the more interesting
things and I think it, itdistracts nicely from the
(22:19):
intensity of the fruit.
I think that the, um, I thinkthat without the mouthfeel, it
might just be like, too much.
that tiny bit of effervescencereally goes a long way towards
balancing it out.
Timothy Sullivan (22:31):
I will say it's delicious.
But it is, there's a lot ofsweetness here too, right?
Yeah.
It's, it's quite sweet and verycoating on the palate and it's
just, it's an intense sake
John Puma (22:48):
Yeah, this is not, to me at least, this is not a sake
that I am going to be sippingand then, oh wow, where did the
bottle go?
Because it's, you're, you'reaware of how much of it you're
drinking.
It's a lot.
Not that you're drinking a lotof it, but the flavor is a lot.
It's very intense.
It coats the mouth.
It's, it is in charge.
Timothy Sullivan (23:10):
Yeah.
I never do this, but I'm goingto make a wine comparison.
Like I, I'm, I'm usually againstthis, but I'm going to break my
own rule
John Puma (23:18):
Oh my goodness.
Timothy Sullivan (23:20):
has like, the weight and the body and the
punch in the face of like a bigtannic red wine.
And if you compare that to likea light, clean sipping white
wine for summer, that's drier.
And you know, it's like thatkind of a difference with the,
the, the body, the aroma, theperfume, the weight is all just
(23:45):
super intense and
John Puma (23:47):
I get exactly what you're
Timothy Sullivan (23:48):
on top of that, it's like, this is a rich,
a rich, fruity sake.
And this is going to be a bigattract, attraction for some
types of consumers.
But I think other consumers whomay be like clean, light, easy
drinking, sipping sakes, thismay be too bold, too rich.
John Puma (24:09):
This, this, yes, perhaps if you, you know, are a
scientist who makes yeast andmade this, you may be like, Hmm,
not my thing.
Yeah, no, this is definitely notfor everybody.
I don't think any sake isnecessarily for everybody.
Um, but I think that this one isespecially, it's going to have
its fans and they're going tolove it.
and then it's going to havepeople who, who thinks it, who
(24:30):
think it's, um, you know, Verytasty and fun to sip on.
I think that I fit into thatcategory and I think you're
going to find people who thinkit's just, it's just too much,
you know?
And I, and for me, like I'm,I'm, I'm in the enjoying it,
having a good time.
Um, category.
I'm like, where, where do youfit in on that?
Timothy Sullivan (24:51):
love nama sake.
I love unpasteurized sake.
I love fruity sake, but I thinkthat this type of nama sake is
really best consumed super,super, super fresh to get the
most enjoyment out of the, theethyl caproate fruitiness that's
John Puma (25:10):
hmm.
I think I know exactly what youmean.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (25:15):
Um, but hey, Kochi Prefecture ordered some
Super over the top fruity yeastand the Kochi Prefectural
Industrial Technology Center,they delivered.
John Puma (25:29):
They definitely
Timothy Sullivan (25:30):
they ordered.
John Puma (25:31):
They did.
They didn't, you know, it's becareful what you wish for,
because uh, this is exactly whatit is.
One thing is I thought therewere only like a handful of
CEL-24 sake is cause I reallyhad only seen a handful.
And then when I was in Kochi, Ifound out that most of the
breweries there haveexperimented with CEL-24 at some
point or another.
And then if you look around,you'll find.
Uh, you'll find bottles thatthey've, uh, that they've done,
(25:54):
and, and the, the vibe is alittle different off of them,
even though they're still bigand loud, you can't, this is not
a yeast that can be tamed by anystretch of the imagination, but
you can bring it down a notchand, and control it a little
bit, I think, I had one fromBijofu that I thought was a lot
of fun.
Um, that was a little bit, itwas a little bit muted next to
(26:16):
this.
So it was a little bit more myspeed, but it was still really
sweet.
Um, and, and it's still, it'sstill quite the, the fruit
explosion.
I'm going beyond fruit bomb,Tim.
This is fruit explosion,
Timothy Sullivan (26:29):
Yes.
one other, point about CEL-24that I read is that it produces
alcohol very slowly, so theycannot reach the higher alcohol
levels with CEL-24.
John Puma (26:45):
so that's why it's 14%.
Timothy Sullivan (26:47):
It is very fruity, geared more towards
lower alcohol sakes.
Um, so that may be anotherreason why we're, we're clocking
in here at 14 percent and it'sstill a genshu or undiluted.
John Puma (27:03):
Very nice.
Timothy Sullivan (27:04):
Okay, John.
Well, you know, for being awayfor a little bit, I think you
know, it's like riding a bike,
John Puma (27:11):
was about to say that too.
It is like riding a bike andit's, and honestly, it's really
good to be back.
It's so nice to be doing thiswith you again.
I really
Timothy Sullivan (27:21):
Absolutely.
I am so glad to be sharing this.
Super fruity Puma WheelhouseSake with you today.
John Puma (27:30):
more than the wheelhouse.
This is.
The wheel, the house is full.
No, it is delicious though.
Timothy Sullivan (27:38):
yeah, it is delicious.
Uh, it was so great to tastewith you, John.
And, I'm, very happy to be backbehind the microphone and, uh,
so happy to, have all of ourlisteners tuning in again.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
I want to send a special thankyou to all of our patrons as
well.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting Sake Revolution
(28:02):
podcasts, please visitPatreon.com/SakeRevolution to
learn more.
John Puma (28:08):
And remember that every episode of Sake Revolution
comes complete with show notes.
Show notes have a transcript ofeverything we talked about.
They have photos usually of thelabels and photos of labels
really important, especiallywhen you're dealing with a sake
like this, which has a fun andunique label.
So get over to the site andcheck that out.
Uh, we've a link to our shopthere where you can buy things
(28:30):
like stickers and t shirts and,um, well, we're not dealing with
work projects.
One of these days we're going toadd more stuff.
That's, that's the plan.
That's on the, that's, that's onmy 2024 roadmap.
So Tim, on that note, pleasegrab your glass.
Remember to keep drinking sakeand.
Kampai!
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