October 20, 2025 • 33 mins
Episode 182. In December of 2024 "Sake" received a special recognition from UNESCO - the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. UNESCO is probably most famous for recognizing cultural heritage sites... like Mount Fuji or Himeji Castle. But in the case of of sake made with koji, it was recognized officially as an "Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity". How cool is that? While this is not exactly hot-off-the-presses breaking news, we wanted to take a moment to recognize and reflect on this milestone. The craft of making sake with koji is worth protecting, celebrating and handing down to the next generation of artisans. Join us as we sip some some sake and enjoy our favorite Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity together. #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
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John Puma (00:22):
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first Sakepodcast.
I am, uh, your host, John Puma.
I am the guy who runs theinternet sake Discord, as well
as Reddits r slash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:40):
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm the Director of Educationat the Sake Studies Center.
As well as the founder of theUrban Sake website, and every
week John and I will be heretasting and chatting about all
things sake and doing our bestto make it fun and easy to
understand.
John Puma (00:59):
Well, hello Tim.
How are you doing today?
Timothy Sullivan (01:04):
Hey John, good to see you.
I'm doing good.
John Puma (01:07):
Excellent.
I'm glad to hear it.
today's episode is gonna be alittle more, uh, informative, I
think or, or focused oninformation and Yeah, but, but
not, but not the normal kind ofhow sake is made.
Kinda information.
We're not gonna be talkingabout Ginjo necessairly and
what, but we're gonna be talkingabout something a little bit
more, uh, a little bit more, um,intangible maybe.
(01:29):
Maybe,
Timothy Sullivan (01:31):
Well.
I, let me start by asking youthis.
If I say the word unesco, firstof all, unesco, do you know
what that stands for?
And what do you think of whenyou hear the word unesco?
John Puma (01:44):
I think of high school 'cause I think that's
when I first heard the termunesco.
I think it's also the last timeI knew what UNESCO stood for.
Timothy Sullivan (01:54):
Well, I can refresh your memory.
UNESCO means the United NationsEducational, scientific and
Cultural Organization.
So this is an agency of theUnited Nations fosters
international cooperation witheducation, science, and culture.
So it's a, it's an agency ofthe United Nations.
(02:16):
And I think there's one thingthat UNESCO is really famous
for, right?
John Puma (02:20):
I know that they do the world heritage stuff.
They focus on kind of findingthings that are like culturally
relevant to different, todifferent countries, uh, and,
you know, and their, and theirimpact on the world at large.
And try to represent and, andfocus on these things and be
like, okay, this is special andthis is why it's special.
Timothy Sullivan (02:40):
Yeah.
What I think most people thinkof when they think of UNESCO is
the World Heritage Program,which, uh, is a program that
UNESCO runs to identify,preserve, and protect cultural
and natural sites that they sayare of outstanding universal
value, and.
In the US we have a number ofUNESCO World heritage sites.
(03:04):
The Grand Canyon is one.
The Statue of Liberty is one,but they also have some in
Japan.
So Himeji Castle and Mount Fujiare both cultural heritage
sites.
Um, yeah.
Everywhere around the worldthey have about.
1,248 as of right now.
(03:25):
So there's 1,248 of these, uh,world Heritage sites around the
world.
John Puma (03:34):
Cool.
That's pretty nice.
Timothy Sullivan (03:36):
And that's like, that's I think, the most
famous thing that you UNESCOdoes.
And when you visit a place andthey say, oh, we're a World
Heritage site, you know, thathas a certain cachet, right.
John Puma (03:47):
Right.
Or or at least, or at leastthey want you to think so.
No.
No.
Um, no.
Uh, yes.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Timothy Sullivan (03:55):
Yeah.
So, but in addition to that,UNESCO has, uh, many layers to,
to what they do.
They also have a program thatrecognizes what they call
intangible cultural heritage.
So the, the world heritagesites are physical places.
John Puma (04:13):
Sure.
Timothy Sullivan (04:14):
And the intangible cultural heritage of
humanity is another thing thatthey focus on, and that's more.
Uh, you know, as intangible asyou said before, it's, it's
things that are, uh, traditionsor expressions of humanity that
are passed down from ancestors,ancestors to descendants.
(04:36):
These could be things likeperforming arts, rituals.
Festival events, but what we'regonna focus on today is
something that was recentlyadded to this intangible
cultural heritage of humanitythat has to do with sake.
And this falls into thetradition of preserving
traditional crafts.
John Puma (04:58):
So now sake is considered a traditional craft.
Timothy Sullivan (05:01):
Yes.
John Puma (05:02):
Ooh, sake making, I guess I should say.
Timothy Sullivan (05:04):
yes.
So.
The official description ofwhat they have recognized as an
intangible cultural heritage ofhumanity is the traditional
knowledge and skills of sakemaking with Koji mold in Japan.
John Puma (05:22):
That's very specific.
Timothy Sullivan (05:24):
Let me, let me read that again.
The traditional knowledge andskills of sake making with Koji
mold in Japan.
John Puma (05:30):
So, hang on a second, is you said sake making.
Timothy Sullivan (05:35):
yes.
John Puma (05:35):
I'm an American, so I need to ask you, are we talking
sake making h you making or arewe talking sake making alcohol?
Making,
Timothy Sullivan (05:45):
Yeah, so that's a really good point,
John.
In Japan, the word sake meansalcohol in general.
I think we've mentioned thatbefore on the podcast.
John Puma (05:55):
if we didn't, we're not to run our jobs.
Timothy Sullivan (05:57):
No, I remember we did the How to Order Sake in
Japan, episode one of our mostpopular travel.
Travel sake vocabulary episode,and we mentioned there that the
word sake in Japan meansalcohol in general.
So when they say here thatthey're recognizing the
traditional knowledge and skillsof sake making with Koji mold,
(06:21):
they're referring to makingalcohol with Koji.
That includes what we call sakenihonshu, but it also refers to
awamori and Shochu for thatmatter.
John Puma (06:32):
Interesting.
So, so even though we'retalking about sake on this
podcast, nihonshu, if you're inJapan, uh, this unesco uh,
recognition is that, is that theright word for it?
Timothy Sullivan (06:46):
yeah.
That's right.
John Puma (06:47):
Okay.
This recognition covers thewhole thing, the whole gamut.
Timothy Sullivan (06:53):
Any alcohol in Japan made with Koji Falls
under the recognition of thisUNESCO listing.
And there are over 670 elementsthat have been added to
UNESCO's intangible culturalhistory lists.
Um, in Jamaica, reggae music isrecognized as an, uh.
(07:18):
As a intangible culturalheritage of humanity.
And in India, they'verecognized yoga.
John Puma (07:25):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (07:26):
Uh, in Japan.
In Japan, they have a number ofintangible cultural heritages,
including kabuki theater thatwas recognized in 2008.
Um.
washi paper making, you thatVery delicate Japanese paper
making.
And also washoku, which istraditional Japanese cuisine.
(07:47):
So Japanese cuisine was alsorecognized as an intangible
cultural heritage of humanity.
So to this li very esteemedlist, they
John Puma (07:57):
right up there with reggae?
No, I, I actually, I, Ihonestly am like, yeah, reggae
should be on there.
That's like, awesome.
I think that's really cool.
Timothy Sullivan (08:07):
Yeah.
And it's, if you know, we'llput a link to the UNESCO World
Heritage Site and it's fun tojust like look through and see
what for different cultures ofthe world, like what they've
petitioned to be recognized assomething that is of such a
value to humanity, that itshould be preserved and
protected.
And I think that, you know,I've listened to a few
(08:31):
interviews with.
Representatives from Japan, andthis is something where you
have to do a lot of paperworkand applications and you know,
you have to apply to have thisrecognized, and it's a political
effort to, to get everyone inyour country on board with
submitting this to UNESCO andgetting it recognized.
(08:52):
But I think that there are,three reasons why they wanted to
do this for sake, making withKoji.
John Puma (09:01):
Hang on a second before you go any further.
I love that you said thatthere's a lot of paperwork and,
and, and effort that goes intothis.
And lemme tell you, if there'sa country that has people that,
uh, that have that respect andappreciate the effort of
paperwork, it is Japan.
So they
Timothy Sullivan (09:17):
my
John Puma (09:17):
been like, let's go, you know, let's do this.
Timothy Sullivan (09:20):
You have not lived until you've gone to a
Japanese stationary store.
Oh my gosh.
It, it is like a little sliceof heaven for me.
Uh.
So that's true, John.
Yeah, they, they were down withthat and they got it done.
So this recognition wasofficially registered with
(09:41):
UNESCO in December of last year,so 2024.
So this recognition isn't evena year old, but it was so much
work, so much paperwork, so muchpolitical will to get this
done.
Why would they want to do thisUNESCO recognition for.
Sake made with Koji.
John Puma (10:03):
Well, I, I, in my mind, I feel like just is
something that Japan would wantwith, with sake being a, a, a
special thing to them and with.
Sake, breweries popping upoutside of Japan, at a rapid
clip these days.
And also, you know, sake makingin Japan is a little bit in
under threat, not just through,not just due to climate change,
(10:26):
but also, uh, due to kind oflike lagging domestic sales and
things like that.
I think this is something thatthey were hoping could maybe,
uh, kind of given a punch in thearm.
Was I right on any of that?
Timothy Sullivan (10:36):
Well, you were right saying that.
The market for sake in Japan isshrinking.
No one can dispute that it isshrinking and the market is not
growing in Japan.
But from the interviews Ilistened to for the different,
uh, representatives that theyactually have an ambassador to,
uh, the UN from Japan, and thatperson kind of leads the charge
(10:58):
for these types of recognitions.
And I listened to an interviewwith him and he mentioned three
things that.
Really we're the driving forcebehind wanting to get this
recognition for sake making withKoji.
Uh, the first one is that theyhope that for everyday regular
Japanese citizens, this willrenew the interest in sake.
John Puma (11:19):
Okay.
So, so that, that number one,it's that, that, boom, I got
that one.
Timothy Sullivan (11:26):
Yeah.
And I think that makes sense.
If something that is every day.
In your culture is recognizedon the world stage like that,
how can it not help you, like,refocus your energy on that?
I think that one is good.
Uh, the next thing theymentioned was, uh, transmitting
the skills of Koji making andsake making to the next
generation.
(11:46):
So when you have this renewedinterest, maybe there will be
more young people up and comingwho will wanna learn these.
Skills.
It's been recognized assomething that is of cultural
importance to humanity, not justto Japanese people, but to
humanity.
And these, uh, traditionalcrafts and methods of making
(12:07):
Koji need to be preserved andprotected.
So that was another hope thatthis recognition will get people
of younger generations to wannalearn how to do this.
John Puma (12:18):
Okay.
All right.
That makes sense.
I, I got the, uh, the pop, theaging population, and, and I
think we've talked about this onthe show before.
Now, I'm sure we've talkedabout this on the show before,
but there is this, this idea inJapan among, specifically among
the young people that sake islike the grandpa's drink, right?
It's not, I don't, I don't eventhink it's like your dad's
(12:40):
drink anymore.
It's probably moved on to likegrandpa's drink.
Uh, and so, you know, a lot ofthe, the Sake Izakayas is that
do really well or ones that areappealing to younger people and
able to get them in the door anduh, and, and, and bring this to
a new generation.
Timothy Sullivan (12:54):
Yeah.
And the, uh, the third thingthat they mentioned was
connected to exports.
Like the, the one area of sakesales that's really growing is
the export market for Japanesemade sake.
So, um, bolstering thereputation of sake on the world
stage through this UNESCOrecognition.
(13:15):
I think they also hope thatthat will support and.
Continue that trend of exportsgrowing year over year and
having it recognized, um, shouldsupport that according to the
ambassador to the UN from Japan.
And I think all those thingsmake sense and, uh, yeah.
John Puma (13:37):
that's pretty cool.
Timothy Sullivan (13:38):
So do you think they'll be effective with
those things?
What do you think about thistype of recognition?
How does it land with you, JP?
John Puma (13:46):
I'm very glad they're doing this, and I think that.
It is important to showcase,you know, things that are
special about your culture.
And to me, obviously, I, I am aperson that journeys to Japan
every year to try new andinteresting sake.
And I live in a city that isvery friendly to receiving sake.
(14:09):
So, yeah, like I, I think that,it fits the bill, right?
This is something very specialand unique about their culture,
about their situation.
Uh, and I, and I, I love theidea of, the rest of the world
stage, recognizing that at leastthat that's my takeaway.
That's my main takeaway.
Timothy Sullivan (14:30):
Yeah.
Well, maybe as.
A button on this wholediscussion.
I actually went to the UNESCOsite and I mentioned there was
paperwork and forms to fill out,and there's actually an
application form for thisrecognition that was online.
And they had a brief summary oftheir argument for wanting to
(14:52):
get this recognition.
And maybe as a way to concludeour discussion, would it, would
you indulge me and let me justread this little paragraph
about, uh, their thinking on
John Puma (15:02):
Please.
Timothy Sullivan (15:03):
Alright, so this is from the brief or the
application to become a.
Intangible cultural heritage ofhumanity for sake making with
Koji.
this is the nomination of thetraditional knowledge and skills
for sake making that have beendeveloped through the
accumulation of experience ofcraftspersons since ancient
(15:26):
times
John Puma (15:27):
Mm.
Timothy Sullivan (15:27):
sake, also known as a Japanese alcoholic
beverage made from grains andquality waters is deeply rooted
in Japanese culture.
An important feature of thiselement or of this application
is using Koji mold, whichconverts starch in the
(15:48):
ingredients into sugarcraftspersons sprinkle koji mold
spores onto steamed grain tostart the fermentation process
and oversee it to make sure theKoji mold grows to its optimal
condition.
They make adjustments to thetemperature and humidity, which
requires full use of their fivesenses.
(16:09):
Their labor decides the qualityof the sake, the skills using
koji mold have been developedreflecting the natural features
and climate of regions.
And gave rise to various kindsof sake, meaning various kinds
of alcohol such as nihonshu,which we know as sake, Shochu
(16:31):
and awamori.
John Puma (16:32):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (16:33):
So they are proud of their skills and the
public and private sectors thatsupport them.
This application is vital inpresent day Japan as a living
heritage.
John Puma (16:47):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (16:47):
So they explained that really the crux
here is the use of Koji and kindof harnessing koji mold as a
way to get sugars out of grainsand makes different alcohols
from that is really at the cruxof this application.
So I think if you, if you lookat the headline for this, it
(17:11):
sounds like, oh sake is acultural thing.
By unesco, but it's really not.
It's not what you and I callsake.
It's really alcohol made usingKoji and the craft of using Koji
and how important that is.
And I think that's really cool.
You do have to dig a littledeeper.
You have to scratch the surfaceto get down to the true meaning
(17:33):
of this intangible culturalheritage.
But, uh, it's really worthwhileto read the descriptions and
learn what they're reallyprotecting here, which is the
traditional craft and knowledgeof making Koji.
John Puma (17:50):
Yeah, I, I wanna say that, you know, prior to
looking.
Further into it.
And this is Oh, absolutely whatyou did here too.
Uh, you know, when I, you firsthear, oh, sake, blah, blah,
blah, blah, unesco, and youthink that they're recognizing
nihonshu like that is, uh, the,the immediate thought.
Um, because in the West we justthink of it that way and, and,
(18:10):
uh.
Even in my circles, in my headI hear, because they're saying
sake.
I didn't think to think theymeant the Japanese term for
sake.
It is very interesting that itis the broader definition.
Um, but yeah, it's a thing thatI'm glad they're doing.
You know, it's a, I think it's,it's important.
I don't know, you know, I neverknow how much of an impact
these things are gonna have.
You know, I, I, all we can dois try, but we never know what,
(18:33):
you know, what the end resultwill be.
Uh, what do you think?
Timothy Sullivan (18:36):
Yeah, I think that 99% of the English speaking
world when they read sakemaking with Koji, they're gonna
think of, of nihonshu of sake,that the way you and I
understand it, and unfortunatelyI think that's gonna leave
Shochu and awamori a little bit.
Uh, forgotten, but they're inthere too.
They're, they're totally a partof this.
(18:57):
So anyone who digs a littledeeper will get the full
picture.
For me, as someone who has sakeas a career, having this, as
something to talk about in myclasses, to talk to my students
about this.
You know, being recognized as acultural heritage of humanity
and how this craft needs to bepassed on to the next generation
(19:18):
and how important it is.
Uh, that's just really, reallycool.
And I think it's well, wellworth the effort
John Puma (19:26):
I think so too.
Um, speaking of, qualityproducts made with Koji that
have the word sake in them, um,you know, we haven't had any
sake yet, Tim.
I think we've got a, if we'regonna be talking about, uh,
about this and celebratingthis,, this achievement, we
should.
We celebrated our own way andsip some of it.
(19:49):
Now, I don't have any shochu orAwamori on my desk right now,
but I do, I do.
As often.
Is the case on this show have anihonshu?
Uh, and I believe you do too.
Is that, is that the case?
Timothy Sullivan (20:01):
Yes, do not, do not tell Japan distilled, but
I am freshed out of Shochuright at the moment.
John Puma (20:07):
Well.
Timothy Sullivan (20:08):
I think we're gonna have to go with some old
fashioned nihonshu, as we say,Japanese sake.
And, uh, you and I have bothselected one of our.
Favorite brands each.
And a wonderful, a wonderfulexpression of sake made from
Koji.
(20:28):
And uh, so John, why don't yougive us the lowdown on what you
are tasting and then I'll do thesame for my sake.
John Puma (20:35):
This is.
A sake I did not expect to haveon this show because one thing
that we always try to focus onis sake that you can get in the
United States, and this is asake that earlier this year I
had in Japan, and the reason Ihad it was because the brand I
love dearly, and it was abottle.
(20:57):
I thought there'd be no chancewe'd be coming to the United
States.
So when I was in Hiroshima.
I was at a, an izakaya and Isaw they had this bottle of the
Gangi Natsu Junmai, the, theSummer Sake from Gangi.
And I absolutely love Gangi.
Gangi is from Yamaguchi rightby Hiroshima.
Really, really great stuffthere.
(21:17):
And so I had, I had a sip ofit, and this is, and I thought
it was lovely, and I thoughtthat was gonna be the last time
I had that sake for quite awhile.
Lo and behold.
Our friends here in New York atMutual Trading have picked up
this sake, and it's nowavailable here, and I could not
be happier because I, I'm,again, a big fan of their stuff
(21:39):
and, and I also really likeNatsu sake.
I'm happy when people bring itover and I'm always happy to see
more of it here.
So,
Timothy Sullivan (21:46):
Now, let's clarify.
You're saying Natsu.
Natsu, which means summer?
John Puma (21:53):
This is summer sake.
This is not anything else.
Oh my goodness, Tim, I didn'teven think of that.
Uh.
Anyway, so, um, this is, um,I'm gonna be drinking the, uh,
Gangi Natsu, uh, they're,they're calling it Karakuchi, so
it is a little dry, apparently.
Uh, Junmai, uh, it is madewith, Yamadanishiki for the
(22:14):
Koji.
And, uh, Saito no Shizuku forthe Kakemai, the, uh, the Starch
component.
The rice polishing for both is60%.
We're dealing with, Kyokai 9 01 yeast.
The sake meter value, thatmeasure of dry just sweet is
plus nine.
So that karakuchi was true.
It is a touch dry, um, uh, alittle more than a touch.
(22:35):
The acidity is two and the A BVis 15%.
So, uh, touch light, not aslight as some natsu, but but a
touch on the lighter side ofthings.
Now, while I'm getting ready topour this, Tim, why aren't you
talking about what you've got?
Timothy Sullivan (22:52):
Yeah, so I also wanted to pick a very
classic and much loved brandfrom Japan to highlight this
UNESCO honoring sake making withKoji.
So I went with a sake fromSuigei, Often known in English
as drunken whale.
This is a Junmai Ginjo, andthis is their Suigei Koiku 54.
John Puma (23:17):
Yes, Uh, that's a wonderful sake.
Timothy Sullivan (23:22):
Yeah.
Uh, the rice variety that'sused is Gin no Yume polished to
50% remaining.
The alcohol is 16%.
Uh, the SMV is plus 6.7 with anacidity of 1.3.
Uh, so I think this falls intothe light and dry cleaner
category.
(23:42):
Right?
Sounds right up
John Puma (23:44):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (23:45):
And, yeah.
And the Prefecture is KochiPrefecture.
John Puma (23:51):
Yeah.
Wonderful sake from a wonderfulPrefecture and a wonderful
brewery.
Timothy Sullivan (23:55):
Yeah.
All right, so I'm going to openthis and get it into my glass.
John Puma (23:59):
Mm-hmm.
And while you are getting thatone into your glass, I'm going
to take a little whiff of thearoma on my Gangi Natsu
Timothy Sullivan (24:12):
All right, John, so go for it.
Why don't you do your tastingfirst?
Let's hear.
Um, I, I have not had the GangiNatsu, but I don't think it's a
secret If I reveal to the worldhere and now that I am a Gangi
fanboy of the first order,
John Puma (24:26):
It just means you have taste, Tim.
It's okay.
Timothy Sullivan (24:28):
okay.
John Puma (24:31):
Hmm.
Uh, so the aroma on this is, itis just a nice light, like
fluffy kind of, um, pillowyaroma.
Like a, like a very, not, notginjo ka in your face, but a
soft sort of, um, almost sweetrice.
Very, very soft hints of fruit.
This is wonderful.
(24:52):
Very subtle.
Uh, and then on the taste onthe palate.
Mm.
So this is nice and dry,especially on the Finish.
Nice and crisp.
You would love this, Tim.
This is right up your alley.
Uh.
there's, there's a tiny, it'sstill a little bit of acidity on
(25:13):
it too, not nothing toodistracting just really goes
really well.
It's all very well balanced.
Hmm.
It's dry.
It's not aggressively dry.
This wants food desperately.
And I think it's gonna go witha lot of nice things that you
compare with it.
That dryness is gonna go superwell with fish, especially, I
think this is the sushi lover'sdream right here.
(25:35):
Hmm.
Really good stuff.
I'm very happy about it.
Timothy Sullivan (25:40):
Let's talk for one moment about Natsu sake,
um, summer, summer sake.
What?
If I'm a consumer and I seethat the bottle says Natsu or
summer sake on it, what can youkind of expect from that?
Like what do you think I've,I've got some ideas about what
it means and what, how I wouldserve it, but do you have any
(26:03):
thoughts on that?
John Puma (26:04):
I do In my mind, uh, the Natsu, the Summer sakes,
you're generally gonna get alittle bit of a lower A BV
because this is, you know.
You're not just dealing withsummer in, in whatever part of
the world you're in, you'redealing with summer in Japan,
which can be punishingly, hotand humid and super high A BV
sake.
You know, it's, it's, it's nota great idea.
(26:26):
When it's really hot out, it'sgonna, you know, dehydrated.
It's, it's not a, you know,it's not the move.
So, a little bit lower on thealcohol content and.
also a little bit tend to be atiny bit like crisper and drier,
which I really enjoy.
you know, just, just very like,you know, soft and drinkable
stuff with a, with that, withthat nice little bit of
(26:47):
crispness on the, on the finish.
I see that a lot.
You know, you don't get the,the viscous fruit bombs.
You get the lighter, thinner,soft-bodied stuff, not the
heavy, you know.
It's hot out.
I'm gonna drink this heavy,high alcohol sake.
Like, no, it's gonna be stuffthat's gonna go nice and cold.
It's gonna be stuff that's niceand smooth.
Timothy Sullivan (27:07):
Yeah, I think for me the primary note on
serving a Natsu sake Susa isthat it should be nice and
chilly willy, like nice andcold.
Uh, it is summer in Japan, asyou said, and if you're out
there sweating to the oldies.
Getting around Japan, you know,you want something that is
(27:28):
gonna be cold and crisp, and Ithink that the drier styles lend
themselves to that servingtemperature, so, so well.
So, uh, when I see Natsu, Ithink like this should be served
icy, cold and crisp.
John Puma (27:43):
Absolutely.
Timothy Sullivan (27:44):
Yeah.
John Puma (27:45):
So let's talk about the Suigei.
Timothy Sullivan (27:48):
Drunken whale.
John Puma (27:49):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (27:51):
Koiku 54.
Uh, again from Suigei.
If I give this a little, aromatest.
Let's see.
John Puma (27:58):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (27:59):
Okay, so this has aromatics that lean more
towards the Rice-y side of sake.
I'm not getting.
Tropical fruits or a classicginjo ka, I'm getting more of a
balanced rice aroma, and itgives me the impression from
smelling this, that I might geta hint of dryness on the palate,
uh, just from like my intuitionfrom smelling this type of
(28:22):
aroma.
So a little bit on the riceside, but very balanced, not
overpowering, uh, not too muchethanol or alcohol aroma.
Just really good balance, butmore, more on the Rice-y side
and let's give it a taste.
Hmm.
So this is, really interesting.
It does.
It is overall dry.
The finish is dry, uh, but it'snot crisp and light.
(28:46):
This has a little bit oflayered richness to it, and the
rice flavor comes forward.
The most.
So again, I'm not getting muchof a fruity characteristic at
all.
It's, uh, bringing that Gin noYume rice flavor forward.
John Puma (29:03):
Uh, for everybody at home.
The Gin no yume was a ricecultivated by sake, well, not by
sake brewers, but by farmers inKochi, for sake, brewing
specifically.
So it is a local, specificallya local rice that's been, that's
been bred specifically forKochi sake.
Timothy Sullivan (29:19):
Yeah.
When I sip on this, the wordthat keeps coming to mind is
like layered or depth of flavor.
Like you get the initial hit ofthe flavor and then it unlocks
a few more layers.
As the sake washes across yourpalate, and these are a little
bit more grain or rice forward.
Again, not getting muchfruitiness or, uh, tropical
(29:42):
fruits here, uh, more, uh, riceforward, but really delicious
and above all, the balance isthere, which is a danger when
something.
You'd call it rice.
Is it too rice?
No.
You've got balance between the,small amount of residual sugar,
the alcohol and the riceflavor.
That kind of, um, like a, justa, a, a whisper of umami as
(30:05):
well.
All kind of play togetherreally well and bring great
balance.
So I think this is a foodfriendly sake.
The finish is, is a littledrier than I was expecting, but
I'm really enjoying it.
John Puma (30:17):
I mean, Ika is kind of known for making dry sake.
I think they, the TokubetsuJunmai is like the king of dry
sake in some cases.
Some people encountered that astheir first, like first like
super dry sake and they reallylike it a lot for that reason.
Timothy Sullivan (30:30):
yeah,
John Puma (30:31):
I think that this comes in a little bit lighter
than, um, than the TokubetsuJunmai.
I think it's a fabulous sakethat's so drinkable.
Timothy Sullivan (30:39):
Yeah, the Tokubetsu Junmai from Suigei,
which we've had on the show afew times as well, that is like
the poster child for mediumbodied, dry sake.
You know, just like, just, youknow, if you're out with your
friend and they don't know whatto get, just say, just give them
that and just say, here, drinkthis.
You're gonna love it.
And it like wins every time.
John Puma (30:59):
It's really good.
Timothy Sullivan (31:00):
Yeah.
John Puma (31:02):
So, Tim, this was a lot of fun.
I, I, I learned a few thingstoday about unesco.
It's been a long time sinceI've even thought about unesco.
Uh, and thank you for bringingit to my attention.
Uh, also fun to sip this withyou.
Timothy Sullivan (31:16):
Yeah, I think that, you know, this happened
last December, so we can'tclassify this as breaking news.
but I thought that this stillwarranted an episode and it
warranted us taking a moment topause and alert our listeners,
who are all.
You know, emerging sake fansof, all levels that, this is
(31:41):
something that happened latelast year and it's something we
can all look to, to raise theprofile of sake across the
world.
So, uh, we couldn't let it.
Go without acknowledging thisamazing elevation of, sake made
with Koji as an intangiblecultural heritage.
So happy to talk to you aboutthis.
(32:01):
Thanks for indulging me, jp.
John Puma (32:04):
always a good time.
Always a good time.
Timothy Sullivan (32:07):
All right.
Well, it was great to tastewith you.
We had two amazing sakes on theshow today.
Um, I also want to thank all ofour listeners for tuning in.
Thank you so much.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
A special hello and thank youto all of our Patreon members.
If you're looking for a way tosupport Sake Revolution, one
thing you can do is join us andsupport us on Patreon.
(32:30):
Please visitpatreon.com/sakerevolution to
learn more.
John Puma (32:35):
And if you're a fan of ours and you wanna check out
our show notes, we talk aboutour show notes a lot on this
show.
And honestly, that's because weput a lot of effort into them.
And so, um, you know, there's.
Not just, uh, you know,pictures of the bottles for
everything that we drink.
We have a lot more in depthstatistics on a lot of the sakes
that we have.
We also have a full transcript.
(32:56):
If you, you know, wanna readsomething instead of listening,
that's completely fine.
Yeah, so get over tosakerevolution.com and, uh, and
check all of that out.
Now, Tim, grab your glass andyou went home too.
Make sure you grab yourglasses, we're gonna
congratulate sake on itsintangible cultural heritage
recognition from unesco.
(33:18):
So remember to keep drinkingsake and kanpai.
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution.
This is America's first Sakepodcast.
I am, uh, your host, John Puma.
I am the guy who runs theinternet sake Discord, as well
as Reddits r slash sakecommunity.
Timothy Sullivan (00:40):
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan.
I'm a Sake Samurai.
I'm the Director of Educationat the Sake Studies Center.
As well as the founder of theUrban Sake website, and every
week John and I will be heretasting and chatting about all
things sake and doing our bestto make it fun and easy to
understand.
John Puma (00:59):
Well, hello Tim.
How are you doing today?
Timothy Sullivan (01:04):
Hey John, good to see you.
I'm doing good.
John Puma (01:07):
Excellent.
I'm glad to hear it.
today's episode is gonna be alittle more, uh, informative, I
think or, or focused oninformation and Yeah, but, but
not, but not the normal kind ofhow sake is made.
Kinda information.
We're not gonna be talkingabout Ginjo necessairly and
what, but we're gonna be talkingabout something a little bit
more, uh, a little bit more, um,intangible maybe.
(01:29):
Maybe,
Timothy Sullivan (01:31):
Well.
I, let me start by asking youthis.
If I say the word unesco, firstof all, unesco, do you know
what that stands for?
And what do you think of whenyou hear the word unesco?
John Puma (01:44):
I think of high school 'cause I think that's
when I first heard the termunesco.
I think it's also the last timeI knew what UNESCO stood for.
Timothy Sullivan (01:54):
Well, I can refresh your memory.
UNESCO means the United NationsEducational, scientific and
Cultural Organization.
So this is an agency of theUnited Nations fosters
international cooperation witheducation, science, and culture.
So it's a, it's an agency ofthe United Nations.
(02:16):
And I think there's one thingthat UNESCO is really famous
for, right?
John Puma (02:20):
I know that they do the world heritage stuff.
They focus on kind of findingthings that are like culturally
relevant to different, todifferent countries, uh, and,
you know, and their, and theirimpact on the world at large.
And try to represent and, andfocus on these things and be
like, okay, this is special andthis is why it's special.
Timothy Sullivan (02:40):
Yeah.
What I think most people thinkof when they think of UNESCO is
the World Heritage Program,which, uh, is a program that
UNESCO runs to identify,preserve, and protect cultural
and natural sites that they sayare of outstanding universal
value, and.
In the US we have a number ofUNESCO World heritage sites.
(03:04):
The Grand Canyon is one.
The Statue of Liberty is one,but they also have some in
Japan.
So Himeji Castle and Mount Fujiare both cultural heritage
sites.
Um, yeah.
Everywhere around the worldthey have about.
1,248 as of right now.
(03:25):
So there's 1,248 of these, uh,world Heritage sites around the
world.
John Puma (03:34):
Cool.
That's pretty nice.
Timothy Sullivan (03:36):
And that's like, that's I think, the most
famous thing that you UNESCOdoes.
And when you visit a place andthey say, oh, we're a World
Heritage site, you know, thathas a certain cachet, right.
John Puma (03:47):
Right.
Or or at least, or at leastthey want you to think so.
No.
No.
Um, no.
Uh, yes.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Timothy Sullivan (03:55):
Yeah.
So, but in addition to that,UNESCO has, uh, many layers to,
to what they do.
They also have a program thatrecognizes what they call
intangible cultural heritage.
So the, the world heritagesites are physical places.
John Puma (04:13):
Sure.
Timothy Sullivan (04:14):
And the intangible cultural heritage of
humanity is another thing thatthey focus on, and that's more.
Uh, you know, as intangible asyou said before, it's, it's
things that are, uh, traditionsor expressions of humanity that
are passed down from ancestors,ancestors to descendants.
(04:36):
These could be things likeperforming arts, rituals.
Festival events, but what we'regonna focus on today is
something that was recentlyadded to this intangible
cultural heritage of humanitythat has to do with sake.
And this falls into thetradition of preserving
traditional crafts.
John Puma (04:58):
So now sake is considered a traditional craft.
Timothy Sullivan (05:01):
Yes.
John Puma (05:02):
Ooh, sake making, I guess I should say.
Timothy Sullivan (05:04):
yes.
So.
The official description ofwhat they have recognized as an
intangible cultural heritage ofhumanity is the traditional
knowledge and skills of sakemaking with Koji mold in Japan.
John Puma (05:22):
That's very specific.
Timothy Sullivan (05:24):
Let me, let me read that again.
The traditional knowledge andskills of sake making with Koji
mold in Japan.
John Puma (05:30):
So, hang on a second, is you said sake making.
Timothy Sullivan (05:35):
yes.
John Puma (05:35):
I'm an American, so I need to ask you, are we talking
sake making h you making or arewe talking sake making alcohol?
Making,
Timothy Sullivan (05:45):
Yeah, so that's a really good point,
John.
In Japan, the word sake meansalcohol in general.
I think we've mentioned thatbefore on the podcast.
John Puma (05:55):
if we didn't, we're not to run our jobs.
Timothy Sullivan (05:57):
No, I remember we did the How to Order Sake in
Japan, episode one of our mostpopular travel.
Travel sake vocabulary episode,and we mentioned there that the
word sake in Japan meansalcohol in general.
So when they say here thatthey're recognizing the
traditional knowledge and skillsof sake making with Koji mold,
(06:21):
they're referring to makingalcohol with Koji.
That includes what we call sakenihonshu, but it also refers to
awamori and Shochu for thatmatter.
John Puma (06:32):
Interesting.
So, so even though we'retalking about sake on this
podcast, nihonshu, if you're inJapan, uh, this unesco uh,
recognition is that, is that theright word for it?
Timothy Sullivan (06:46):
yeah.
That's right.
John Puma (06:47):
Okay.
This recognition covers thewhole thing, the whole gamut.
Timothy Sullivan (06:53):
Any alcohol in Japan made with Koji Falls
under the recognition of thisUNESCO listing.
And there are over 670 elementsthat have been added to
UNESCO's intangible culturalhistory lists.
Um, in Jamaica, reggae music isrecognized as an, uh.
(07:18):
As a intangible culturalheritage of humanity.
And in India, they'verecognized yoga.
John Puma (07:25):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (07:26):
Uh, in Japan.
In Japan, they have a number ofintangible cultural heritages,
including kabuki theater thatwas recognized in 2008.
Um.
washi paper making, you thatVery delicate Japanese paper
making.
And also washoku, which istraditional Japanese cuisine.
(07:47):
So Japanese cuisine was alsorecognized as an intangible
cultural heritage of humanity.
So to this li very esteemedlist, they
John Puma (07:57):
right up there with reggae?
No, I, I actually, I, Ihonestly am like, yeah, reggae
should be on there.
That's like, awesome.
I think that's really cool.
Timothy Sullivan (08:07):
Yeah.
And it's, if you know, we'llput a link to the UNESCO World
Heritage Site and it's fun tojust like look through and see
what for different cultures ofthe world, like what they've
petitioned to be recognized assomething that is of such a
value to humanity, that itshould be preserved and
protected.
And I think that, you know,I've listened to a few
(08:31):
interviews with.
Representatives from Japan, andthis is something where you
have to do a lot of paperworkand applications and you know,
you have to apply to have thisrecognized, and it's a political
effort to, to get everyone inyour country on board with
submitting this to UNESCO andgetting it recognized.
(08:52):
But I think that there are,three reasons why they wanted to
do this for sake, making withKoji.
John Puma (09:01):
Hang on a second before you go any further.
I love that you said thatthere's a lot of paperwork and,
and, and effort that goes intothis.
And lemme tell you, if there'sa country that has people that,
uh, that have that respect andappreciate the effort of
paperwork, it is Japan.
So they
Timothy Sullivan (09:17):
my
John Puma (09:17):
been like, let's go, you know, let's do this.
Timothy Sullivan (09:20):
You have not lived until you've gone to a
Japanese stationary store.
Oh my gosh.
It, it is like a little sliceof heaven for me.
Uh.
So that's true, John.
Yeah, they, they were down withthat and they got it done.
So this recognition wasofficially registered with
(09:41):
UNESCO in December of last year,so 2024.
So this recognition isn't evena year old, but it was so much
work, so much paperwork, so muchpolitical will to get this
done.
Why would they want to do thisUNESCO recognition for.
Sake made with Koji.
John Puma (10:03):
Well, I, I, in my mind, I feel like just is
something that Japan would wantwith, with sake being a, a, a
special thing to them and with.
Sake, breweries popping upoutside of Japan, at a rapid
clip these days.
And also, you know, sake makingin Japan is a little bit in
under threat, not just through,not just due to climate change,
(10:26):
but also, uh, due to kind oflike lagging domestic sales and
things like that.
I think this is something thatthey were hoping could maybe,
uh, kind of given a punch in thearm.
Was I right on any of that?
Timothy Sullivan (10:36):
Well, you were right saying that.
The market for sake in Japan isshrinking.
No one can dispute that it isshrinking and the market is not
growing in Japan.
But from the interviews Ilistened to for the different,
uh, representatives that theyactually have an ambassador to,
uh, the UN from Japan, and thatperson kind of leads the charge
(10:58):
for these types of recognitions.
And I listened to an interviewwith him and he mentioned three
things that.
Really we're the driving forcebehind wanting to get this
recognition for sake making withKoji.
Uh, the first one is that theyhope that for everyday regular
Japanese citizens, this willrenew the interest in sake.
John Puma (11:19):
Okay.
So, so that, that number one,it's that, that, boom, I got
that one.
Timothy Sullivan (11:26):
Yeah.
And I think that makes sense.
If something that is every day.
In your culture is recognizedon the world stage like that,
how can it not help you, like,refocus your energy on that?
I think that one is good.
Uh, the next thing theymentioned was, uh, transmitting
the skills of Koji making andsake making to the next
generation.
(11:46):
So when you have this renewedinterest, maybe there will be
more young people up and comingwho will wanna learn these.
Skills.
It's been recognized assomething that is of cultural
importance to humanity, not justto Japanese people, but to
humanity.
And these, uh, traditionalcrafts and methods of making
(12:07):
Koji need to be preserved andprotected.
So that was another hope thatthis recognition will get people
of younger generations to wannalearn how to do this.
John Puma (12:18):
Okay.
All right.
That makes sense.
I, I got the, uh, the pop, theaging population, and, and I
think we've talked about this onthe show before.
Now, I'm sure we've talkedabout this on the show before,
but there is this, this idea inJapan among, specifically among
the young people that sake islike the grandpa's drink, right?
It's not, I don't, I don't eventhink it's like your dad's
(12:40):
drink anymore.
It's probably moved on to likegrandpa's drink.
Uh, and so, you know, a lot ofthe, the Sake Izakayas is that
do really well or ones that areappealing to younger people and
able to get them in the door anduh, and, and, and bring this to
a new generation.
Timothy Sullivan (12:54):
Yeah.
And the, uh, the third thingthat they mentioned was
connected to exports.
Like the, the one area of sakesales that's really growing is
the export market for Japanesemade sake.
So, um, bolstering thereputation of sake on the world
stage through this UNESCOrecognition.
(13:15):
I think they also hope thatthat will support and.
Continue that trend of exportsgrowing year over year and
having it recognized, um, shouldsupport that according to the
ambassador to the UN from Japan.
And I think all those thingsmake sense and, uh, yeah.
John Puma (13:37):
that's pretty cool.
Timothy Sullivan (13:38):
So do you think they'll be effective with
those things?
What do you think about thistype of recognition?
How does it land with you, JP?
John Puma (13:46):
I'm very glad they're doing this, and I think that.
It is important to showcase,you know, things that are
special about your culture.
And to me, obviously, I, I am aperson that journeys to Japan
every year to try new andinteresting sake.
And I live in a city that isvery friendly to receiving sake.
(14:09):
So, yeah, like I, I think that,it fits the bill, right?
This is something very specialand unique about their culture,
about their situation.
Uh, and I, and I, I love theidea of, the rest of the world
stage, recognizing that at leastthat that's my takeaway.
That's my main takeaway.
Timothy Sullivan (14:30):
Yeah.
Well, maybe as.
A button on this wholediscussion.
I actually went to the UNESCOsite and I mentioned there was
paperwork and forms to fill out,and there's actually an
application form for thisrecognition that was online.
And they had a brief summary oftheir argument for wanting to
(14:52):
get this recognition.
And maybe as a way to concludeour discussion, would it, would
you indulge me and let me justread this little paragraph
about, uh, their thinking on
John Puma (15:02):
Please.
Timothy Sullivan (15:03):
Alright, so this is from the brief or the
application to become a.
Intangible cultural heritage ofhumanity for sake making with
Koji.
this is the nomination of thetraditional knowledge and skills
for sake making that have beendeveloped through the
accumulation of experience ofcraftspersons since ancient
(15:26):
times
John Puma (15:27):
Mm.
Timothy Sullivan (15:27):
sake, also known as a Japanese alcoholic
beverage made from grains andquality waters is deeply rooted
in Japanese culture.
An important feature of thiselement or of this application
is using Koji mold, whichconverts starch in the
(15:48):
ingredients into sugarcraftspersons sprinkle koji mold
spores onto steamed grain tostart the fermentation process
and oversee it to make sure theKoji mold grows to its optimal
condition.
They make adjustments to thetemperature and humidity, which
requires full use of their fivesenses.
(16:09):
Their labor decides the qualityof the sake, the skills using
koji mold have been developedreflecting the natural features
and climate of regions.
And gave rise to various kindsof sake, meaning various kinds
of alcohol such as nihonshu,which we know as sake, Shochu
(16:31):
and awamori.
John Puma (16:32):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (16:33):
So they are proud of their skills and the
public and private sectors thatsupport them.
This application is vital inpresent day Japan as a living
heritage.
John Puma (16:47):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (16:47):
So they explained that really the crux
here is the use of Koji and kindof harnessing koji mold as a
way to get sugars out of grainsand makes different alcohols
from that is really at the cruxof this application.
So I think if you, if you lookat the headline for this, it
(17:11):
sounds like, oh sake is acultural thing.
By unesco, but it's really not.
It's not what you and I callsake.
It's really alcohol made usingKoji and the craft of using Koji
and how important that is.
And I think that's really cool.
You do have to dig a littledeeper.
You have to scratch the surfaceto get down to the true meaning
(17:33):
of this intangible culturalheritage.
But, uh, it's really worthwhileto read the descriptions and
learn what they're reallyprotecting here, which is the
traditional craft and knowledgeof making Koji.
John Puma (17:50):
Yeah, I, I wanna say that, you know, prior to
looking.
Further into it.
And this is Oh, absolutely whatyou did here too.
Uh, you know, when I, you firsthear, oh, sake, blah, blah,
blah, blah, unesco, and youthink that they're recognizing
nihonshu like that is, uh, the,the immediate thought.
Um, because in the West we justthink of it that way and, and,
(18:10):
uh.
Even in my circles, in my headI hear, because they're saying
sake.
I didn't think to think theymeant the Japanese term for
sake.
It is very interesting that itis the broader definition.
Um, but yeah, it's a thing thatI'm glad they're doing.
You know, it's a, I think it's,it's important.
I don't know, you know, I neverknow how much of an impact
these things are gonna have.
You know, I, I, all we can dois try, but we never know what,
(18:33):
you know, what the end resultwill be.
Uh, what do you think?
Timothy Sullivan (18:36):
Yeah, I think that 99% of the English speaking
world when they read sakemaking with Koji, they're gonna
think of, of nihonshu of sake,that the way you and I
understand it, and unfortunatelyI think that's gonna leave
Shochu and awamori a little bit.
Uh, forgotten, but they're inthere too.
They're, they're totally a partof this.
(18:57):
So anyone who digs a littledeeper will get the full
picture.
For me, as someone who has sakeas a career, having this, as
something to talk about in myclasses, to talk to my students
about this.
You know, being recognized as acultural heritage of humanity
and how this craft needs to bepassed on to the next generation
(19:18):
and how important it is.
Uh, that's just really, reallycool.
And I think it's well, wellworth the effort
John Puma (19:26):
I think so too.
Um, speaking of, qualityproducts made with Koji that
have the word sake in them, um,you know, we haven't had any
sake yet, Tim.
I think we've got a, if we'regonna be talking about, uh,
about this and celebratingthis,, this achievement, we
should.
We celebrated our own way andsip some of it.
(19:49):
Now, I don't have any shochu orAwamori on my desk right now,
but I do, I do.
As often.
Is the case on this show have anihonshu?
Uh, and I believe you do too.
Is that, is that the case?
Timothy Sullivan (20:01):
Yes, do not, do not tell Japan distilled, but
I am freshed out of Shochuright at the moment.
John Puma (20:07):
Well.
Timothy Sullivan (20:08):
I think we're gonna have to go with some old
fashioned nihonshu, as we say,Japanese sake.
And, uh, you and I have bothselected one of our.
Favorite brands each.
And a wonderful, a wonderfulexpression of sake made from
Koji.
(20:28):
And uh, so John, why don't yougive us the lowdown on what you
are tasting and then I'll do thesame for my sake.
John Puma (20:35):
This is.
A sake I did not expect to haveon this show because one thing
that we always try to focus onis sake that you can get in the
United States, and this is asake that earlier this year I
had in Japan, and the reason Ihad it was because the brand I
love dearly, and it was abottle.
(20:57):
I thought there'd be no chancewe'd be coming to the United
States.
So when I was in Hiroshima.
I was at a, an izakaya and Isaw they had this bottle of the
Gangi Natsu Junmai, the, theSummer Sake from Gangi.
And I absolutely love Gangi.
Gangi is from Yamaguchi rightby Hiroshima.
Really, really great stuffthere.
(21:17):
And so I had, I had a sip ofit, and this is, and I thought
it was lovely, and I thoughtthat was gonna be the last time
I had that sake for quite awhile.
Lo and behold.
Our friends here in New York atMutual Trading have picked up
this sake, and it's nowavailable here, and I could not
be happier because I, I'm,again, a big fan of their stuff
(21:39):
and, and I also really likeNatsu sake.
I'm happy when people bring itover and I'm always happy to see
more of it here.
So,
Timothy Sullivan (21:46):
Now, let's clarify.
You're saying Natsu.
Natsu, which means summer?
John Puma (21:53):
This is summer sake.
This is not anything else.
Oh my goodness, Tim, I didn'teven think of that.
Uh.
Anyway, so, um, this is, um,I'm gonna be drinking the, uh,
Gangi Natsu, uh, they're,they're calling it Karakuchi, so
it is a little dry, apparently.
Uh, Junmai, uh, it is madewith, Yamadanishiki for the
(22:14):
Koji.
And, uh, Saito no Shizuku forthe Kakemai, the, uh, the Starch
component.
The rice polishing for both is60%.
We're dealing with, Kyokai 9 01 yeast.
The sake meter value, thatmeasure of dry just sweet is
plus nine.
So that karakuchi was true.
It is a touch dry, um, uh, alittle more than a touch.
(22:35):
The acidity is two and the A BVis 15%.
So, uh, touch light, not aslight as some natsu, but but a
touch on the lighter side ofthings.
Now, while I'm getting ready topour this, Tim, why aren't you
talking about what you've got?
Timothy Sullivan (22:52):
Yeah, so I also wanted to pick a very
classic and much loved brandfrom Japan to highlight this
UNESCO honoring sake making withKoji.
So I went with a sake fromSuigei, Often known in English
as drunken whale.
This is a Junmai Ginjo, andthis is their Suigei Koiku 54.
John Puma (23:17):
Yes, Uh, that's a wonderful sake.
Timothy Sullivan (23:22):
Yeah.
Uh, the rice variety that'sused is Gin no Yume polished to
50% remaining.
The alcohol is 16%.
Uh, the SMV is plus 6.7 with anacidity of 1.3.
Uh, so I think this falls intothe light and dry cleaner
category.
(23:42):
Right?
Sounds right up
John Puma (23:44):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (23:45):
And, yeah.
And the Prefecture is KochiPrefecture.
John Puma (23:51):
Yeah.
Wonderful sake from a wonderfulPrefecture and a wonderful
brewery.
Timothy Sullivan (23:55):
Yeah.
All right, so I'm going to openthis and get it into my glass.
John Puma (23:59):
Mm-hmm.
And while you are getting thatone into your glass, I'm going
to take a little whiff of thearoma on my Gangi Natsu
Timothy Sullivan (24:12):
All right, John, so go for it.
Why don't you do your tastingfirst?
Let's hear.
Um, I, I have not had the GangiNatsu, but I don't think it's a
secret If I reveal to the worldhere and now that I am a Gangi
fanboy of the first order,
John Puma (24:26):
It just means you have taste, Tim.
It's okay.
Timothy Sullivan (24:28):
okay.
John Puma (24:31):
Hmm.
Uh, so the aroma on this is, itis just a nice light, like
fluffy kind of, um, pillowyaroma.
Like a, like a very, not, notginjo ka in your face, but a
soft sort of, um, almost sweetrice.
Very, very soft hints of fruit.
This is wonderful.
(24:52):
Very subtle.
Uh, and then on the taste onthe palate.
Mm.
So this is nice and dry,especially on the Finish.
Nice and crisp.
You would love this, Tim.
This is right up your alley.
Uh.
there's, there's a tiny, it'sstill a little bit of acidity on
(25:13):
it too, not nothing toodistracting just really goes
really well.
It's all very well balanced.
Hmm.
It's dry.
It's not aggressively dry.
This wants food desperately.
And I think it's gonna go witha lot of nice things that you
compare with it.
That dryness is gonna go superwell with fish, especially, I
think this is the sushi lover'sdream right here.
(25:35):
Hmm.
Really good stuff.
I'm very happy about it.
Timothy Sullivan (25:40):
Let's talk for one moment about Natsu sake,
um, summer, summer sake.
What?
If I'm a consumer and I seethat the bottle says Natsu or
summer sake on it, what can youkind of expect from that?
Like what do you think I've,I've got some ideas about what
it means and what, how I wouldserve it, but do you have any
(26:03):
thoughts on that?
John Puma (26:04):
I do In my mind, uh, the Natsu, the Summer sakes,
you're generally gonna get alittle bit of a lower A BV
because this is, you know.
You're not just dealing withsummer in, in whatever part of
the world you're in, you'redealing with summer in Japan,
which can be punishingly, hotand humid and super high A BV
sake.
You know, it's, it's, it's nota great idea.
(26:26):
When it's really hot out, it'sgonna, you know, dehydrated.
It's, it's not a, you know,it's not the move.
So, a little bit lower on thealcohol content and.
also a little bit tend to be atiny bit like crisper and drier,
which I really enjoy.
you know, just, just very like,you know, soft and drinkable
stuff with a, with that, withthat nice little bit of
(26:47):
crispness on the, on the finish.
I see that a lot.
You know, you don't get the,the viscous fruit bombs.
You get the lighter, thinner,soft-bodied stuff, not the
heavy, you know.
It's hot out.
I'm gonna drink this heavy,high alcohol sake.
Like, no, it's gonna be stuffthat's gonna go nice and cold.
It's gonna be stuff that's niceand smooth.
Timothy Sullivan (27:07):
Yeah, I think for me the primary note on
serving a Natsu sake Susa isthat it should be nice and
chilly willy, like nice andcold.
Uh, it is summer in Japan, asyou said, and if you're out
there sweating to the oldies.
Getting around Japan, you know,you want something that is
(27:28):
gonna be cold and crisp, and Ithink that the drier styles lend
themselves to that servingtemperature, so, so well.
So, uh, when I see Natsu, Ithink like this should be served
icy, cold and crisp.
John Puma (27:43):
Absolutely.
Timothy Sullivan (27:44):
Yeah.
John Puma (27:45):
So let's talk about the Suigei.
Timothy Sullivan (27:48):
Drunken whale.
John Puma (27:49):
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (27:51):
Koiku 54.
Uh, again from Suigei.
If I give this a little, aromatest.
Let's see.
John Puma (27:58):
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (27:59):
Okay, so this has aromatics that lean more
towards the Rice-y side of sake.
I'm not getting.
Tropical fruits or a classicginjo ka, I'm getting more of a
balanced rice aroma, and itgives me the impression from
smelling this, that I might geta hint of dryness on the palate,
uh, just from like my intuitionfrom smelling this type of
(28:22):
aroma.
So a little bit on the riceside, but very balanced, not
overpowering, uh, not too muchethanol or alcohol aroma.
Just really good balance, butmore, more on the Rice-y side
and let's give it a taste.
Hmm.
So this is, really interesting.
It does.
It is overall dry.
The finish is dry, uh, but it'snot crisp and light.
(28:46):
This has a little bit oflayered richness to it, and the
rice flavor comes forward.
The most.
So again, I'm not getting muchof a fruity characteristic at
all.
It's, uh, bringing that Gin noYume rice flavor forward.
John Puma (29:03):
Uh, for everybody at home.
The Gin no yume was a ricecultivated by sake, well, not by
sake brewers, but by farmers inKochi, for sake, brewing
specifically.
So it is a local, specificallya local rice that's been, that's
been bred specifically forKochi sake.
Timothy Sullivan (29:19):
Yeah.
When I sip on this, the wordthat keeps coming to mind is
like layered or depth of flavor.
Like you get the initial hit ofthe flavor and then it unlocks
a few more layers.
As the sake washes across yourpalate, and these are a little
bit more grain or rice forward.
Again, not getting muchfruitiness or, uh, tropical
(29:42):
fruits here, uh, more, uh, riceforward, but really delicious
and above all, the balance isthere, which is a danger when
something.
You'd call it rice.
Is it too rice?
No.
You've got balance between the,small amount of residual sugar,
the alcohol and the riceflavor.
That kind of, um, like a, justa, a, a whisper of umami as
(30:05):
well.
All kind of play togetherreally well and bring great
balance.
So I think this is a foodfriendly sake.
The finish is, is a littledrier than I was expecting, but
I'm really enjoying it.
John Puma (30:17):
I mean, Ika is kind of known for making dry sake.
I think they, the TokubetsuJunmai is like the king of dry
sake in some cases.
Some people encountered that astheir first, like first like
super dry sake and they reallylike it a lot for that reason.
Timothy Sullivan (30:30):
yeah,
John Puma (30:31):
I think that this comes in a little bit lighter
than, um, than the TokubetsuJunmai.
I think it's a fabulous sakethat's so drinkable.
Timothy Sullivan (30:39):
Yeah, the Tokubetsu Junmai from Suigei,
which we've had on the show afew times as well, that is like
the poster child for mediumbodied, dry sake.
You know, just like, just, youknow, if you're out with your
friend and they don't know whatto get, just say, just give them
that and just say, here, drinkthis.
You're gonna love it.
And it like wins every time.
John Puma (30:59):
It's really good.
Timothy Sullivan (31:00):
Yeah.
John Puma (31:02):
So, Tim, this was a lot of fun.
I, I, I learned a few thingstoday about unesco.
It's been a long time sinceI've even thought about unesco.
Uh, and thank you for bringingit to my attention.
Uh, also fun to sip this withyou.
Timothy Sullivan (31:16):
Yeah, I think that, you know, this happened
last December, so we can'tclassify this as breaking news.
but I thought that this stillwarranted an episode and it
warranted us taking a moment topause and alert our listeners,
who are all.
You know, emerging sake fansof, all levels that, this is
(31:41):
something that happened latelast year and it's something we
can all look to, to raise theprofile of sake across the
world.
So, uh, we couldn't let it.
Go without acknowledging thisamazing elevation of, sake made
with Koji as an intangiblecultural heritage.
So happy to talk to you aboutthis.
(32:01):
Thanks for indulging me, jp.
John Puma (32:04):
always a good time.
Always a good time.
Timothy Sullivan (32:07):
All right.
Well, it was great to tastewith you.
We had two amazing sakes on theshow today.
Um, I also want to thank all ofour listeners for tuning in.
Thank you so much.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
A special hello and thank youto all of our Patreon members.
If you're looking for a way tosupport Sake Revolution, one
thing you can do is join us andsupport us on Patreon.
(32:30):
Please visitpatreon.com/sakerevolution to
learn more.
John Puma (32:35):
And if you're a fan of ours and you wanna check out
our show notes, we talk aboutour show notes a lot on this
show.
And honestly, that's because weput a lot of effort into them.
And so, um, you know, there's.
Not just, uh, you know,pictures of the bottles for
everything that we drink.
We have a lot more in depthstatistics on a lot of the sakes
that we have.
We also have a full transcript.
(32:56):
If you, you know, wanna readsomething instead of listening,
that's completely fine.
Yeah, so get over tosakerevolution.com and, uh, and
check all of that out.
Now, Tim, grab your glass andyou went home too.
Make sure you grab yourglasses, we're gonna
congratulate sake on itsintangible cultural heritage
recognition from unesco.
(33:18):
So remember to keep drinkingsake and kanpai.
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