October 16, 2024 • 55 mins
Episode 173. World Sake Day comes once a year on Oct 1st. For sake fans across the globe, this is our big holiday... think Christmas-4th of July-Halloween all rolled into one! What better way for us to mark the day then with a live recording of Sake Revolution in front of a studio audience and featuring an interview and tasting with our two New York City Tojis: Brandon Doughan of Brooklyn Kura and Shinobu Kato of Kato Sake Works. Our friends and sake fans who attended this live recording at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom on Oct 1st, 2024, got to taste along with us as we explored the sake and the stories of these two outstanding brewers. We also welcomed audience questions for a fun-filled roundtable of sake exploration and learning - with lots of laughs along the way. Listen in as we celebrate Sake Day 2024 live and in person! #SakeRevolution
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Puma (00:25):
this is America's First Sake Podcast.
I am one of your intrepid hosts.
My name is John Puma.
You may know me from the SakeNotes or the Internet Sake
Discord or Reddit's r slash sakecommunity.
I like to build sakecommunities, apparently.
Timothy Sullivan (00:38):
And I'm your other host.
My name is Timothy Sullivan.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center.
And I'm the founder of the UrbanSake website.
And every week, we will be heretasting and chatting about all
things sake, and do our best tomake it fun and easy to
understand.
John, so good to see you.
John Puma (00:56):
Yeah, Tim, I'm sitting across the table from
you which is a very rare raretreat, normally we are on zoom
John, so good
Timothy Sullivan (01:00):
Well today is a very special day in the sake
lover's calendar, isn't it?
Yes, today is sake day, and weare celebrating by doing one of
our very rare live sake podcastrecordings.
We are at the Brooklyn KuraTaproom.
We have some VIP guests with us.
(01:22):
And the best thing that we havegoing on today is that we have a
live studio audience.
So,
Shinobu Kato (01:30):
will
Timothy Sullivan (01:34):
alright.
John Puma (01:35):
my.
Yeah, this will be our secondtime doing a live studio
audience.
The first time, of course, waslast year at the, uh, North
American craft Sake Festivaldown in Virginia.
And yeah, it's nice to, nice tohave you guys and we're indoors
this time.
It's a little bit, slightly lesshot than it was in Virginia in
the middle of the summer.
(01:56):
Uh, and it's, it's a lot of funto be here.
Timothy Sullivan (01:59):
Yes, and we decided to focus, since we're in
New York City, we decided tofocus our episode today on some
of the toji's of New York City.
And we've invited the two masterbrewers that we have here in New
York City to join us as guests.
So I would like to welcomeBrandon Doughan of Brooklyn
Kura.
Welcome, Brandon.
Brandon Doughan (02:18):
Thanks so much for having me again.
uh, this is nice of
Timothy Sullivan (02:25):
And we also have Shinobu Kato from Kato Sake
Works, also in New York
John Puma (02:34):
So, uh, this is nice.
So the thing is that neither ofyou guys are strangers to this
show.
You guys have all been here.
At least once.
Shinobu's only been here the onetime.
He was here in, uh, episode 51.
Which I think was a really funtime to have him.
I think he was celebrating hisfirst anniversary of, of Kato
Sake Works.
And, uh, Brandon You're a repeatoffender.
Brandon Doughan (02:56):
I've been here more than Byron a Proper Sake.
Is what my answer to that?
I
John Puma (03:00):
I think this officially puts you ahead of
him.
Brandon Doughan (03:02):
right.
John Puma (03:04):
So, we'll have to have Byron on, you guys can
battle at some point.
I'm going to be excited to seethat.
Timothy Sullivan (03:09):
Awesome.
Well, we would like both of youto introduce yourselves to our
listeners who may not have heardthose previous episodes.
Can you give us a quickintroduction, a little bit about
your background and how you gotinto sake, how you became a sake
brewer.
So, Shinobu, why don't we startwith you?
Shinobu Kato (03:25):
start?
Okay, Okay, uh, my name isShinobu Kato, and, uh, I make
sake at the Kato Sake Works.
Please don't take any questionsfrom that table, because that's
the entire Kato Sake crew, and Iknow that they are putting hard
questions on me.
But, anyway, uh, How I started?
I, I, I've been kind of aserious drinker when I was in,
(03:48):
in Japan, but this countrydoesn't give me like enough sake
that I needed, so I just startedhome brewing at home when I was
in Tennessee.
That was like 10 years ago.
And then, you know, I moved toBrooklyn.
Because I thought nobody'smaking sake here.
John Puma (04:06):
here.
Brandon Doughan (04:07):
here.
Shinobu Kato (04:10):
So that, that, that's my story.
Brandon Doughan (04:12):
Alright
John Puma (04:12):
mostly
Brandon Doughan (04:14):
I'm Brandon Doughan, I'm the master brewer
of Brooklyn Kura.
Um, I got into sake, uh, mostlyout of, uh, interest in
fermentation.
Uh, sake is one of the weirderfermented beverages in the
world.
Um, so, I'm interested in allthings weird fermented, um, and
(04:35):
then I met my business partner,uh, Brian, in Japan, and we
happened to wander into a verytraditional sake brewery and got
the bug, um, and then quit ourold jobs and started making sake
here in Brooklyn.
Timothy Sullivan (04:50):
How long have each of you been brewing?
How Long have you been brewing?
Even starting at home brewing,how many years have you been
practicing your craft?
Shinobu Kato (05:00):
I think like 10 years, I guess.
Yeah, but my first batch waslike, you know, One bucket, one
fridge, you know, I don't knowwhat I was doing, so just follow
the instruction on the internet.
And then I made something likesake.
So,
Brandon Doughan (05:16):
Um, fermentation in general, since
before I was 21.
Um, and it's been beer and wineand lacto fermentation.
Um, even shoyu before sake.
but sake really, seriously, thelast ten years or so.
(05:37):
And and it's true, brewing sakeat home is, is difficult, and
it's very difficult on thatsmall scale to get a good
result.
John Puma (05:46):
Well, um, but one thing that we find really
interesting is that for peoplewho have been to Japan and have
gone to sake breweries in Japan,sake breweries are usually kind
of out there.
They're kind of over in thecountryside, they're kind of,
you gotta take the train to thebus, and then after the bus
you're gonna walk for a bit, andthen you're going to this
parking lot, and then there's arice field on the right, and
(06:06):
then the brewery's on the left.
But you guys are doing this inone of the most major
metropolitan areas in the world.
How's that different?
And what's that do for you guys?
What's that mean for you guys?
Brandon Doughan (06:18):
Well, I think there's pros and cons.
Um, I think the pro is thatwe're in New York City, we're in
the largest Sake market, um, inthe United States.
So we have people such as ouraudience, um, that already kind
of know about sake andappreciate sake.
So we've already got that, youknow, that fan consumer base
(06:39):
there.
Um, another thing, I moved herefrom the West Coast.
Another thing that, um, is greatabout New York City is its
water.
you know, I'm sure you've donemany episodes on terroir for
sake, but, but, but water doesplay an effect, um, and it
doesn't seem like the largestmetropolitan area in the United
States would have good water,but it is fantastic for sake
John Puma (07:00):
and Shinobu?
Shinobu Kato (07:01):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more on the water.
Oh, I didn't do my researchbefore I moved to, so it was
just lucky, but yeah, New YorkCity water is really good.
I don't know, in my case, oh, Igrew up in Tokyo, so I never
lived in the countryside, so Inever thought about that.
And then, you know, I spent tenyears in Tennessee, so I had
enough,
Timothy Sullivan (07:21):
had enough.
It's
Shinobu Kato (07:22):
you know, slow life, so I needed to come back
to the city.
And then I needed to dosomething for myself, so it was
like, no option.
Timothy Sullivan (07:32):
Yeah.
I know that when, when I visitbrewers that are out in the
country, they talk about thepurity of their water, the
purity of the air, you know,it's so clean there.
Uh, do you guys see anychallenges being in the city?
Uh, any, uh, logisticalchallenges or any, any practical
challenges being in such ametropolitan area?
Brandon Doughan (07:53):
I guess, um, I mean, it's, the situation of
sake brewing in the UnitedStates in general is that we, we
are removed from our ricesource.
Like, our, our rice is grown ineither California or Arkansas.
It has to get on a truck and getto us.
Um, uh, um, you know, prettymuch everything but the water
has to get on a truck and get tous.
And so there's that logisticalchallenge.
(08:15):
Um, yeah, what do you think?
Shinobu Kato (08:17):
Yeah, that's true.
That's kind of weird thingbecause you get the rice on the
palate and then that's how youstart making things in the
building, and then once it'sdone, it goes out from the, you
know, the loading dock.
So you don't have a goodconnection to the, to the land
or to the, you know, ecosystemthat everything comes
Brandon Doughan (08:41):
of Yeah, you and I are not growing rice in
the off season.
Timothy Sullivan (08:44):
So one thing you mentioned, Brandon, a moment
ago was about the consumer basethat we have here.
And I think that's so important.
I'd love to talk to you guys alittle bit about that.
I know that.
Shinobu at Kato Sake Works,you're really growing a
community of sake lovers in yourneighborhood, and during the
pandemic, especially, you haddirect outreach.
(09:05):
Can you talk a little bit aboutgrowing that community and
growing sake with your localsthat you have right there?
Shinobu Kato (09:12):
growing Yes, so when I started Kato Sake in NY,
I had a kinda business plan orwhatever the idea that, hey,
maybe I should sell our sakeManhattan, you know, like a nice
omakase place or something likethat.
And then pandemic happened, andthen all the, the trains or
subways were so disgusting, soyou didn't want to even touch
(09:33):
anything in the subway.
Oh, so everybody stayed at home,just, you know, walk around in
your apartment.
And then that's how we startedour business.
And it was a great discovery toknow that, oh, there are more
interests.
In the, just, the people on thestreet, they are very curious,
and if there's an opportunityright next to their apartment,
(09:54):
they are open to try somethingnew, right?
So that was how we started, andthen, you know, I'm, probably we
are still doing that at our ownspace, that most of the
customers are somewhere in,like, in the neighborhood, and
uh, we just, you know, hang outwith people, and then, you know,
dogs, and then kids, and thenit's kind of fun, yeah.
John Puma (10:17):
And in contrast to what Shinobu did during the
pandemic, Brooklyn Kura, youguys did the opposite and you
reached out and started doingdelivery services.
You guys started, started KuraKin at that point and started
doing like, Oh, let's try aninteresting batch and get it out
to people and see what theythink.
What was that process like foryou?
Brandon Doughan (10:35):
Well, we went from, uh, Brian basically, uh,
driving his car around Manhattanand getting a lot of tickets and
delivering sake, uh, to those,to that period in the pandemic,
um, where we started Kurakin,it's our sake subscription, sake
club.
and as far as being the brewer,it, it gave me a chance to, to
(10:57):
try some small batches.
We have a few small tanks.
It gave me a chance toexperiment more because we had
our kind of our big productsthat we had were starting to
refine and make consistent.
but you know, I'm a new brewer.
I don't have a hundred years ofhistory, uh, behind me.
so it's always good to, to trynew things and, and try new
(11:18):
rice, try new yeast, try two newtechniques.
And the Kurakin has really kindof given me that opportunity to
experiment.
and mostly succeed in thoseexperiments and then, and then
have, you know, get feedbackfrom our, from our members.
John Puma (11:33):
so Tim, uh, I think it is time for us to taste a
sake, is that
Timothy Sullivan (11:39):
Yes, we, uh, have the great pleasure to taste
two sakes, one from Brandon, onefrom Shinobu, and uh, I've
remember many visits to Japan,tasting sake with the master
brewer who made it is somethingreally special.
And we're gonna have thatopportunity today and share it
with our studio audience.
(11:59):
Is everyone excited to tastewith the tojis??
Yes.
Alright.
so I'm going to pour the firstsake from Kato Sake Works.
This is a Junmai, and we have todo our what could you call it?
(12:19):
This is our signature it's
John Puma (12:21):
it's our signature ASMR
Timothy Sullivan (12:22):
Yes.
So we're going to see if we cancapture this on audio.
John Puma (12:30):
Pretty good, pretty good.
I think, yeah, I think it didit.
Timothy Sullivan (12:35):
So I'm going to pass that
Shinobu Kato (12:36):
Do I have to do the same thing If
John Puma (12:39):
can, that would be awesome, but, you know.
Timothy Sullivan (12:43):
Shinobu san, we're going to start with you.
And you have brought us yourJunmai sake from Kato Sake
Works.
And I noticed you have a speciallimited label on the bottle, so
I'd love to hear about that.
But can you introduce us to thisfirst sake?
Okay.
Shinobu Kato (13:02):
Sure.
So this is our Junmai.
And although you've been sayingthat I made this Junmai,
actually it's more Maxinesitting over there making this
sake, so, yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (13:13):
Yay,
Maxine! Maxine yeah, but
Shinobu Kato (13:15):
anyway, uh, so this is our flagship Junmai, and
we use 60 percent Calrose.
Uh, Calrose is just likeordinary eating rice that
everybody eat at the, you know,whatever the restaurant that you
go.
So, uh, and then, uh, althoughwe call it Junmai, it's
Technically Junmai, Ginjo, butwe just want to make things
simple.
(13:36):
Oh, very classic, a little bitbolder, had more sugar and
acidity, I think.
Oh, so it's a little bit louder,sake, that when I explain to the
customers, this is more likeAmerican style because you are
loud and then noisy.
Yeah.
I understand,
John Puma (13:52):
yeah, I noticed, I noticed on your label you
actually, um, suggest, uh, inaddition to taste like and pairs
like, you have a pairing formusic, or what it sounds like,
keyboard riffs.
Shinobu Kato (14:05):
yeah, so that's what we do because, uh, more
than half of our team membersare musicians.
Not me, I don't play any musicinstruments, but everybody else
does that.
Uh, especially James and, uh,Maxine.
Uh, but anyway, it's kind of funwhen we are doing the tasting
notes.
You know, tasting note,sometimes people take it so
seriously, and we want people totake tasting note more
(14:27):
personable, right?
Depending on what kind of dietyou grew up with, your Pairing
might be completely different.
In the same way, music is verypersonal, so we just want to
suggest to people that, hey,take the tasting note more like
how you listen to music.
John Puma (14:44):
awesome.
You
Timothy Sullivan (14:45):
That's awesome.
I, you know, I noticed there'ssome brewers and some breweries
that don't want to focus as muchon the stats that the sake geeks
like us really love.
Like, what's the amino acid?
What's the rice millingpercentage?
What's the acidity?
How do you feel about that ingeneral?
Shinobu Kato (15:02):
That's what we probably do.
You know, Maxine has all thedata, but at the end of the day
we are like, yeah, it tastesright, you know?
Timothy Sullivan (15:12):
you.
Awesome.
So, that was a wonderfulintroduction.
So, that was a wonderfulintroduction So, why don't we
take this, uh, in the glass, andlet's give it a smell.
John Puma (15:24):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (15:25):
So there's some lovely rice aromas.
That must be that calrose comingthrough.
Now, you work a lot withcalrose.
Is that the only rice you use?
Shinobu Kato (15:34):
So far, yes, except one time we didn't get
cow roast on time and we have togo to Chinatown to get the Oh
no, but we still get theCalrose, just a different
polish.
That's,
John Puma (15:45):
get is because we polish.
Is
Shinobu Kato (15:50):
Chinese
John Puma (15:51):
Chinatown
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
Is this the Chinatown edition?
John Puma (15:54):
about
Shinobu Kato (15:54):
This is the one that we get pallet on the right
day edition.
John Puma (15:58):
for
Timothy Sullivan (15:58):
wonderful.
Now, now talk to us about thislabel.
You did a special labeling forSake Day.
Is that right?
Shinobu Kato (16:04):
right?
Yes.
So, you know, sake day isspecial, and then people want to
make a, uh, special thing aboutsake day and sake week, but, you
know, So we have a story abouthow sake day started from like
a, you know, brewing season inJapan and how traditionally it
was made.
Oh, but at the same time,probably same is true for
(16:24):
Brandon, but we make sake everyday, every season.
So, you know, the originalmeaning of the sake day, the
starting of the season, doesn'tmean anything.
to us, right?
So our message is, yeah, today'sa great special day and we wanna
celebrate today as a sake day,but can we make sake day as 365
(16:49):
every day so that we cancelebrate this every day?
Timothy Sullivan (16:52):
I love that.
Yeah.
So, while we have it in theglass, let's taste the Junmai
from Kato Sake
John Puma (16:58):
let's.
Timothy Sullivan (16:58):
together.
So, It's lovely.
Yeah.
So, you work magic with calrose,I have to say.
Shinobu Kato (17:06):
Maxine did.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (17:08):
I see.
John Puma (17:11):
Maxine does a lot of magic with Calrose and, and
yeah, it's, it's beeninteresting to see, like you've
been using Cal Roses, uh, for aslong as, uh, Kato Saki works has
been going, but so many of yourSAS tastes different from one
another.
And so it's so interesting thatyou're, a lot of, uh, north
American breweries get excitedabout new types of rices, new
types of Polish.
I said, you're like, I got thisrice, I'm gonna do all these
(17:32):
different things with it.
What was your, your thought waslike, I know I can get this, or
was it more along the lines oflike, I see something more with
this?
Shinobu Kato (17:40):
think initially it was more like logistical and
economical reason, right?
You want to make the same sakeconsistently, but we don't have
a luxury to have a big batch, sowe have to make a small batch
like regularly.
How can we get the rice, thesame type of rice?
Consistently supplied and thenwe don't have a big warehouse so
(18:04):
we don't have a space to getlike five pallets of rice,
right?
So we need to have like halfpallets every week kind of
situation.
John Puma (18:12):
option
Shinobu Kato (18:13):
Only option was calrose, because Yamada Nishiki
and another Sake were not thatconsistent, right?
And then we did not have aluxury to, hey, let's do this
for this batch and then let's dosomething else for other batch,
then we don't have a, uh, likerestaurants that trust us, like,
hey, your sake, like number 14,always taste the same, right?
(18:34):
So kind of, from that kind of,uh, reason that we started using
calrose as a base ingredient.
And then I fell in love with thestory, or history, of Calrose,
like, okay, you know, Japaneseimmigration, and then how it was
adapted in the U.
S.
culture.
And without Calrose as an eatingrice, there was no California
roll.
Without California roll, there'sno omakase in Manhattan right
(18:56):
now.
And without having an omakase inManhattan, maybe there's not two
sake breweries in Brooklyn rightnow.
So, I like that story, and Ilike that idea, and we still
don't have a space to store anyother type of rice at the
brewery yet.
Yeah, so that's another reason.
John Puma (19:12):
That'll be the third iteration of the brewery
Timothy Sullivan (19:13):
Yes.
Brandon Doughan (19:14):
I mean, I, I love Calrose, um, we use a lot
of it as well, and, and I thinkof it as the American sake mai.
like, there, there's, there are,how many, what's the count now
for small sake American brewersnow?
Is it 20, 20, 27, so there's 27small American sake brewers, and
a lot of them are very small,and, and, like, working on
(19:37):
minimal budgets, and, and,calrose is, is an affordable
rice.
Um, uh, Yamada nishiki is anexpensive rice.
Um, so, so, you know, Americanshave leaned into calrose, and I
think they're doing wonderfulthings with it, and maybe people
don't think it's going to be agood sake rice because it's also
(19:58):
a food rice, but it is, and wejust, we just had to learn how
to use it.
Timothy Sullivan (20:02):
Absolutely.
I do want to ask you one morequestion about your sake,
Shinobu.
I want you to speak a little bitabout the sweetness to dryness
profile, because what it comesthrough for me is this is not a
bone dry sake, and there's ahint of noticeable sweetness
there.
So what's, what's your feelingon that balance between sweet
and dry?
Shinobu Kato (20:20):
You know, there's a big discussion going on in the
internet about this.
Dryness of sake in like aJapanese like a sake geek board
kind of thing.
So but anyway, that's completelydifferent topic, but so our sake
probably has more sugar comparedto, uh, like a typical
mainstream, uh, Junmai sake, uh,but also has more acidity, yeah.
(20:43):
So depending on what kind ofdrinking background you have,
you find this sake dry or youfind sake, you find this sake
sweet.
And, uh, still we are learningthat question.
We have a customer like, hey,give me the driest sake you
have, and I, I I gave up, so Iusually give like three
(21:04):
different styles and you tellme.
And each time, people have verydifferent answers.
Yeah, and some people think thatthis sake is too sweet, some
people think that this sake isdry,
Timothy Sullivan (21:17):
Yeah.
Shinobu Kato (21:18):
and I'm completely confused.
John Puma (21:21):
I'm hungry for
Timothy Sullivan (21:25):
Yes.
Good answer.
John Puma (21:26):
very, it's a confusion,
Timothy Sullivan (21:29):
Yes.
Uh, I heard, Uh, there's a veryfamous quote, the customer is
always right in matters of taste
John Puma (21:34):
funny word.
Timothy Sullivan (21:36):
Excellent.
Well, uh, Kato San, this is afantastic Junmai.
Very, very drinkable.
Congratulations to you andMaxine.
It's, it's very, very delicious.
Very good.
Yes.
So, John, should we move on tothe Brooklyn Kura?
John Puma (21:54):
think we should.
Timothy Sullivan (21:55):
right.
So from Brooklyn Kura, we aregoing to be tasting a Junmai
Ginjo, the Grand Prairie.
So let's give this a pour and doour audio.
John Puma (22:06):
are you going to do?
So while we're getting thatpoured out there, Brandon.
Brandon Doughan (22:18):
Yes.
John Puma (22:19):
Grand Prairie.
What's with the name?
Brandon Doughan (22:22):
Um, this name was coined, uh, by a former
bartender of ours, Sam.
Um, and it refers to the areain, Arkansas where rice is
grown.
So it's a, it's a flat area ineastern Arkansas where the
Mississippi has been meanderingfor millions of years and made
And, like, ideal rice paddygrowing area.
John Puma (22:44):
All right.
tell us a little bit about this.
Junmai Ginjo Yamadanishiki.
What
Brandon Doughan (22:47):
so, so, this is, Grand Prairie is, um, made
with Yamada Nishiki, fromArkansas, milled to 60%, and,
and, it changes a little, alittle bit each time.
I'm really trying to, like,Capture what American
yamanashiki tastes like.
(23:08):
Again, I know you've doneterroir or, or, or like, like
what is contributing to thetaste of sake, and it's
complicated.
And it's difficult for me todrink a sake and guess what the
rice is.
John Puma (23:21):
umhum
Brandon Doughan (23:22):
But, but, you know, we, rices available to us,
and, and with this particularginjo, um, I'm trying to like,
Understand what Yamadanishikitastes like.
So I use a yeast that's, that'skind of simple.
Um, I'm, I'm trying to like,let, let the rice be its own
thing.
Um, and, and just trying tobalance the rice, uh, the, the,
(23:46):
the glucose and the acidity tokind of show that off.
John Puma (23:50):
Well, Tim, the aroma,
Timothy Sullivan (23:51):
Yeah, let's get the aroma.
John Puma (23:53):
so I think this also has a lot of that, a little bit
of that Rice-iness
Timothy Sullivan (23:56):
Hmm.
John Puma (23:57):
but it's a different rice.
You can tell that right away.
Timothy Sullivan (24:01):
Absolutely.
And I always, I always find whenI teach sake classes that I
learn so much by side by sidecomparisons.
So I'm actually going to go backto Kato and smell this one,
smell them side by side.
Calrose versus Yamadanishiki Ithink the aroma for the, uh,
Grand Prairie with YamadaNishiki is a little more lifted
and a little more perfumed thanthe Calrose.
John Puma (24:23):
And the calrose comes in, it's a little, it's the
aroma, it makes me think ofsomething to be a little more
tangy, a little more sweet
Timothy Sullivan (24:29):
Hmm.
John Puma (24:29):
Whereas this one feels a little more, uh, a
little more like that, thatsweet rice,
Timothy Sullivan (24:33):
Yeah, so.
John Puma (24:34):
sweet rice.
Timothy Sullivan (24:35):
Let's give the Grand Prairie a taste.
Yeah, so I think with both ofthese sakes the word that keeps
popping to my mind is balance,like this great balance between
sweetness and dryness andacidity and umami.
There's, there's wonderfulbalance and I think that that's
(24:55):
what makes a great sake.
Those people who search for likethe ultimate super dry, or like
that super, super sweet.
I think that's a stool with, youknow, the legs are unbalanced.
But if you have, uh, theacidity, the sugar, and the
umami all in balance, it createsa wonderful experience for sake.
(25:15):
And both of these sakes, for me,represent, Great balance.
What do you think, John?
John Puma (25:19):
I agree, so neither of these are wild or crazy
style.
Timothy Sullivan (25:25):
know,
John Puma (25:26):
they are not to dry or too sweet they are right
where you want them They areboth really approachable..
I think that's a good way to putit.
I find it really interestingthat, um, so Brandon's using
the, you know, the Americanversion of the king of Japanese
Sakamai.
And Shinobu's using the AmericanSakamai.
(25:49):
And I think it's like, it's,it's a little interesting about
that.
I think it's a little fun thatyou guys, it's a fun little
thing we get to play with heretoday.
Timothy Sullivan (25:56):
So, as we're winding up our sake portion, if
anyone has questions thatthey've written out, please
raise your hand, and the staffwill come around and collect
those and bring those up to us.
Uh, we encourage everyone tosubmit questions.
John Puma (26:09):
Um, yeah, So while they're taking care of that,
there's a couple things wewanted to chat with you guys
about.
And that is, you guys are, youknow, we're in New York, you
guys are in the biggestmetropolitan area in the US,
we're going to call it that.
Um, LA may argue, but they'rewrong.
Now, um, but you guys arelooking to get outside and share
your sake with the rest of theworld, Brandon, you were just in
(26:32):
Japan.
You were pouring sake at aJapanese event called Sake Jump.
And Shinobu, you just got donereleasing your sake.
In Puerto Rico, which was not onmy bingo card, but it's super
cool.
I'm really
Shinobu Kato (26:46):
excited
John Puma (26:47):
about that.
So I want to ask each of youkind of like what went on with
that and how that's been for youguys.
So we'll start with Brandon andthen we'll go over to Shinobu.
Brandon Doughan (26:56):
Yeah, so, Japan stays hot much longer than I
thought it does.
So that was the first thing Iremember about Sake Jump, it was
extremely hot.
Um, but it was an incredibleopportunity.
Sake Jump is an event.
tries to draw in, like, young,innovative brewers.
there were a lot of, of, ofthis, uh, doberoku license, this
(27:16):
new doberoku license in Japan.
these young guys there, I'mflattered that they thought I
was young to invite us.
John Puma (27:25):
Um,
Brandon Doughan (27:25):
But we were the first non Japanese sake brewery
to pour at this event, and itwas just overwhelmingly
positive.
I think, I think, you know, asmaybe we all know, uh, sake in
Japan is on the decline.
I mean, the cool kids aredrinking IPA and Japanese
whiskey, um, but, but thisreally is kind of, it seemed
(27:46):
cool to me, um, and, and, andthen like people were really
excited about it and they'rereally enthused, as I, as I
poured sake for them, it wasjust, people were amazed that
somebody outside of Japan wasmake, even making sake, and they
really loved the sake.
So, it was a really like.
Positive, uh, uh, supportiveEvent That's That's
John Puma (28:07):
awesome.
So Shinobu, tell me about PuertoRico.
Shinobu Kato (28:11):
It was good.
that location That was my firstvacation for like five years
since we opened the brewery.
Yeah, so it was good.
Yeah, and I made that as a halfbusiness trip.
But, you know, the ultimatepurpose was to go to the beach.
Brandon Doughan (28:31):
Laughter.
John Puma (28:33):
you succeed?
Shinobu Kato (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, but, uh, you know, we, our, our
brewery is still small, youknow, oh, and then, uh, the
capacity wise, we don't have acapacity to distribute anything
outside of New York City, uh, ormaybe New York State at the
most, right, so we don't haveany plan to go anywhere outside
(28:55):
of New York State, but I justwanted to have a vacation, and,
uh, you know, we have a lot of,But, you know, Bushwick is very
Puertorican, right?
Yeah, so, oh, my neighbor'sPuertorican, you know, uh,
there's like a food stand,Puertorican, like a, what's it
called, pincho stand, and thenrestaurants, everything.
So we wanted to kind ofappreciate and then kind of, uh,
(29:20):
contribute, contribute back tothe community who accepted us
as, like, a new business.
And then, you know, there are acouple of regulars that, hey, I.
I know somebody who wants tohave a sake in Puerto Rico, so
can you ship it?
And we figured it out and then Iwent there and then had a nice
vacation.
Timothy Sullivan (29:38):
Shinobu, that's what we call work life
balance.
Yes.
Very, very well done.
John Puma (29:46):
Tokyo?
No.
Brandon Doughan (29:47):
little bit.
John Puma (29:47):
Okay, good.
Timothy Sullivan (29:49):
Work life balance.
John Puma (29:50):
That's also a balance.
Timothy Sullivan (29:51):
Well, We think it's wonderful that both of you
are reaching outside of NewYork, and it is a wonderful
indication of the growth of thesake industry, It just gets me
thinking, like, when we have ourreunion live episode in five
years, in ten years, where areyou going to be selling?
Yeah, it's going to be amazing.
So, John, we got some questionsfrom the audience
John Puma (30:11):
We did,
Timothy Sullivan (30:12):
did you, uh, do you want to go first
John Puma (30:14):
Sure, sure.
So, so first I have to like,there's this one I need to just
kind of get out of the way.
And, um, that is, somebody askedif there will be a collaboration
sake between Kato Sake works
Timothy Sullivan (30:23):
and
John Puma (30:23):
Brooklyn Kura, and, uh, it happened already.
Brandon Doughan (30:26):
Oh, it's
gonna happen again It's gonna
Shinobu Kato (30:28):
happen
Brandon Doughan (30:28):
It's gonna continue to happen.
Shinobu Kato (30:29):
It's recorded, so happening
Brandon Doughan (30:31):
No, we had a great time.
Uh, we made a sake called, uh,pizza bagel and and that refers
to our common ingredient, whichis our, uh, our New York City
water.
Um, so, so we were just talking,I had a tour with Kato Sake
Works, um, earlier today, and wewere talking about doing this
(30:51):
collaboration again, and I knowthat a lot of other American
sake breweries listen to thispodcast, and I think we should
all be doing that.
Like I think we should, like Iwill do a collaboration with
every other sake brewery in theUnited States, and we should all
be like collaborating and doingsomething together.
John Puma (31:08):
sounds like a lot of fun.
I, I'm down for that.
I want to, I want to taste thosesakes.
Timothy Sullivan (31:13):
Can you remind us, that Pizza, Bagel, sake,
that collaboration you didbefore?
How did that work?
What part did each of you do?
Shinobu Kato (31:21):
So at that time we started talking about the
collaboration and Brandon waslike, Hey, we gonna make.
Moto, so can you make moromi onour space?
And we were like, no, becauseyour moto size is our moromi
size, so there's no space in thetank.
So we did a reverse, and then wemade a moto, and then put into
(31:45):
the, like a 20 liter Cambro, andJohnny, I, and then Evan took an
Uber from Bushwick, and then atthe very end at the industry
city, uh, you know.
It was not fully, properly, uh,secured.
And then Johnny got all the motosplash.
Yes, yes.
(32:06):
But we put together the, thebucket into, uh, the tank.
Uh, and then we made that fromthere.
So from there you did take, tookcare of everything.
So we did a little bit easierpart.
I mean, you took care ofeverything.
John Puma (32:20):
So it was technically a three part collaboration.
It was Kato Sake Works, BrooklynKura,
Brandon Doughan (32:26):
and uber, yeah, I know.
We owe 10%.
I mean, I think, I think we doit again.
We both have a little more setupspace now.
I think we can share theresponsibilities a
Shinobu Kato (32:40):
That's true.
Equally
John Puma (32:41):
Mm hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (32:42):
Okay, I got a great question here.
This question has two heartsdrawn on it, too.
It says, for Brandon andShinobu, what are your favorite
styles of sake to drink versusto brew?
Have brewing challenges everaffected your drinking
preferences?
So let's do the, that's a greatquestion, let's do the first
(33:03):
part first.
What are your favorite styles ofsake to drink versus to brew?
Brandon?
Brandon Doughan (33:08):
I enjoy drinking all styles of sake
John Puma (33:12):
That's very diplomatic
Brandon Doughan (33:13):
I, It's true though.
I i, mean, my friends are bothof you and, and like other sake,
Somms and, and, and, and, andthe whole New York sake
community.
So I go out with people and, andit's like, oh, I've got this
weird bottle, like.
Jamie from Skurnik.
Well, I've been keeping thisbottle under my desk for three
years, and he'll pour mesomething, and it's, the story's
(33:34):
fantastic.
It's good.
I only want one glass of it.
But I enjoy, like, all styles ofdrinking sake, and then my
favorite style to produce, um, Ireally do like Yamahai and
Kimoto, making Yamahai andKimoto, just because it's like
making a sake before you makethe sake.
It's good.
It's got its own, Entirefermentation process that
(33:57):
happens just to make the Shubo,uh, before you go into it and,
and like, and to see how, youknow, that translates, it
affects the fermentation of themain fermentation in the final
taste.
So
John Puma (34:08):
Maybe to do a collab with Proper.
You and Byron in the same room,doing a little Kimoto.
I
Brandon Doughan (34:14):
that'll be
Shinobu Kato (34:14):
that'd be fun.
Timothy Sullivan (34:16):
Shinobu, how about for you, styles you like
to drink versus what you like tobrew?
Shinobu Kato (34:21):
So drink, to drink, probably Junmai,
Timothy Sullivan (34:26):
Junmai, Junmai,
Shinobu Kato (34:29):
That's what I probably end up when I'm, like,
in Japan going to, like, smallizakaya by myself and then, you
know, have some Otsumami andthen drink something.
I'd probably end up the nightwith Junmai.
Maybe room temperature warm orsomething like that, but yeah,
yeah, I like Junmai.
Uh, to make, I agree that, youknow, Kimoto, Yamahai, all those
(34:53):
kind of weird stuff, that's morefun.
You know, it's, it's fun.
Very, you know, unpredictable,that requires a lot of care,
right?
Oh, and of course Maxine cantell because she has to do that.
The hand, hand mixing and thestuff, you know, I do that
sometimes too.
But, yeah, but that's a funthing to brew.
John Puma (35:15):
Nice.
So, uh, we got another questionhere and this is, um, I, I
really like this.
So let me try to get this right.
So what is your favorite happyaccident story about making
sake?
Now, not not disaster stories,but like happy accident stories.
Timothy Sullivan (35:29):
accidents.
Who wants
John Puma (35:32):
Who wants to go first?
Shinobu Kato (35:36):
I have probably ten accidents, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying tothink of a happy one.
Brandon Doughan (35:46):
So
Shinobu Kato (35:47):
Well, so far we are lucky that any accidents
that we've done Had were notdisaster, and what we got was
something that we didn't intend,but tasted interesting.
And, uh, we, as a brewer, had abit of higher standard that,
(36:10):
hey, this didn't taste like whatwe intended.
Dump it, right?
But actually, you know, it'smore like it didn't taste like
what we intended, but stillwithin the boundary of good
craft sake.
Yeah, and the customer kind ofliked it.
John Puma (36:30):
Kusuma
Shinobu Kato (36:35):
Yeah, but one time, like, Johnny was like, No,
we should dump this.
And then I was like, Okay,that's a lot of things to dump.
Maybe let's try to pour the taproom still in people Liked it.
Brandon Doughan (36:45):
I'm trying to hang on to some of those,
because, because if you put themin the back of the walk in or
something, like, you could comeback to them six months later,
and, they're remarkable.
Like it, it's rare that thathave There's most are still
terrible, but, but, um, I, Ithink for me, the, the, the
Whole Kura Kin, the thing wehave, the fact that we have
(37:05):
these small tanks, it's, I mean,maybe they're all accidents, but
like, we're, we're just makingstuff up.
We're not, we're not going offof any thing, out of a book or
something.
And we were following a generalrecipe.
So, we're also, I think, theexciting thing about being in
the US, or at least outside ofJapan, is, is that everything we
(37:26):
do is new.
Like, we're, we're like, like,this year's Calrose or this
year's Yamada is like,relatively very very new, and so
we're going to find out aboutit.
And then, and then, you know,whatever yeast we can get, you
know, however we are personallygrowing koji, like, all that's
going to affect it.
So, so.
It's, it's kind of all of anaccident and, and, um, and I
(37:50):
dunno, they're all my favoriteaccidents.
John Puma (37:52):
all your favorite accidents?
Okay.
This is
Timothy Sullivan (37:54):
question.
These are great.
You guys did amazing.
Thank you for all thesequestions.
So this is another good one.
When you first started brewing,were there any Japanese
breweries that inspired yourstyle or your methods?
Thank you.
That's a very good question.
(38:14):
So did you, yeah.
did you, get any inspirationfrom a particular brewery in
Japan when you first startedbrewing, or any breweries you
wanted to emulate?
Shinobu Kato (38:26):
I'll go first, so when I started was when Around
the time that there was, like,high acidity sake is kind of
becoming a trend in Japan and Iwas already moved to the U.
S.
I didn't have a chance to goback there as often, but I went
back there and my friend took meto some, like, cool, like,
(38:46):
hidden sake, not sake bar, butlike, izakaya in Osaka, and it's
crazy.
They had a pool table, and onthe pool table, there's, like,
a, like, a train, model trains,like, running But like a small
like, you know, whatever thegauge train kind of thing.
Yeah, but they had a like a allthis like high acidity sake that
(39:08):
I've never heard of.
Yeah, like, you know, what wasthat?
Like aramasa and zaku and thosekind of things.
And then I was like, oh, I kindof like this, uh, you know, the,
the acid cutting through the,the palate.
So that was one influence that Igot.
And then also, oh Dassai.,
John Puma (39:29):
um
Shinobu Kato (39:29):
Not the flavor, you know, flavor is great, you
know, don't, don't get me wrong,but the production side.
So I visited their facility andthen I saw how they do things.
And then that was like, Oh God,that's interesting.
Very, you know, that works forus like a small breweries.
Oh, so there's a lot of like,you know, uh, light bulbs moment
(39:52):
to me.
Brandon Doughan (39:53):
of thing.
Yeah, I think, um, for It's notreally about any particular
drinking experience, but it issome early visits.
Like, if it's your firstexperience of making sake, it's
an emotional thing that stickswith you.
So I had a couple, Early sakebreweries that I visited,
(40:15):
Takashima Shuzo is one.
Um, and then also, um, like Ihave maybe less exposure to sake
breweries in Japan than Shinobudoes.
But, uh, We have a cheerleaderfrom Japan that comes over once
in a while.
His name is Kuji san from NanbuBijin.
And so, like, we, like, all theAmerican sake brewers know him
(40:38):
because he comes and he's, andhe is really trying to, like,
make sake brewing outside ofJapan a thing, and, and he's,
like, very immediatelyinspirational.
So, so I think Nanbu Bijin isprobably an influence for me and
several other breweries in theUnited States.
Timothy Sullivan (40:57):
Kujisan on the podcast, and he is a force to be
reckoned with.
Yes.
John Puma (41:02):
quite a character.
Timothy Sullivan (41:03):
Yes.
John Puma (41:06):
All right, so we've got one that they specify this
is for the toji and theyunderlined it.
So Tim, this is not for you orme.
What is your favorite and orleast favorite step of the sake
making process?
Brandon Doughan (41:18):
Uh, favorite and or least favorite?
John Puma (41:20):
And or.
Brandon Doughan (41:21):
Well, I mean, I'm speaking for everybody.
Cleaning is the most frequentand least favorite part, but
it's a necessary part.
part.
Timothy Sullivan (41:29):
ha ha.
ha.
Brandon Doughan (41:30):
Um, actually my favorite part I think is Tim's
least favorite part.
And it's Koji making Am I right?
That's right.
Timothy Sullivan (41:38):
I called it sweating to the oldies.
That was, shh, yes.
we
Shinobu Kato (41:42):
favorite, uh, Well, I hope the The company's
not listening to this podcast,but, uh, we use a software
called ECOS.
That's like a software to, toget the log of everything,
because we have to report howmany alcohol we produced, and
(42:03):
then, you know, so there's likea background, uh, information
management.
And then after you do all thephysical labors of fun stuff,
You have to key in everything,like, okay, how many koji you
made, how many, you know, kojispores you used, and then all
those things, and then that's,everybody's like, okay, oh, I
still have to log in everythingafter the long day of the labor.
(42:26):
Yeah.
Brandon Doughan (42:26):
And it's a program made initially for beer.
Shinobu Kato (42:29):
yeah, yeah.
Brandon Doughan (42:30):
there's no good software for sake, in the United
States at least.
John Puma (42:34):
Sounds like my day job.
Shinobu Kato (42:35):
It's
Timothy Sullivan (42:37):
that's your least favorite.
What's your favorite part ofsake brewing, Shinobu?
Shinobu Kato (42:42):
I don't know, lunch?
We, we,
Brandon Doughan (42:44):
we
Shinobu Kato (42:46):
Yeah, we, we cook lunch every day together.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, like all thebrewers and then some bartenders
who's there, we cook lunch alltogether every day.
And, uh, yeah, yeah, sometimeswe make fancy lunch too, you
know.
Yeah, on Friday, Joni goes tothe farmer's market on the way
and then gets some nicevegetables and we make fancy
(43:08):
lunch.
So, Maybe you should come by anddo the podcast on Friday.
Brandon Doughan (43:12):
have a question.
Timothy Sullivan (43:15):
I'll bring some vegetables.
Okay, moving on.
Um, let's go for anotherquestion.
Now this is a little bit more ofa technical question, uh, but I
think it's still reallyinteresting.
Can you compare New York City'swater profile to a specific
region in Japan that might besimilar?
And, uh, how might that be withhardness, softness, et cetera?
(43:37):
What are your thoughts on thewater,
John Puma (43:39):
That's a
Brandon Doughan (43:39):
mean, it's,
Shinobu Kato (43:40):
Hiroshima?
so?
Brandon Doughan (43:41):
oh, you think so?
Because, because the hardnessnumber for new York is 24?
So, okay, Hiroshima, all right.
Hiroshima is so close to, to,um, like the Miracle Water, like
it's so close to Kobe,
Shinobu Kato (43:56):
so that's but it's super soft.
Okay, so there's a between thoseareas, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (44:02):
okay.
The Tojis conferring amongstamongst themselves.
Shinobu Kato (44:06):
Yeah, but definitely not nada.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (44:10):
can, you translate those numbers for the
rest of us now?
Brandon Doughan (44:12):
well, okay.
So, so I'll, I can, I can mostlyspeak about New York in, in, and
the water.
Our water is on the soft side,so there's a hardness number.
It's 24.
It's a, it's a medium softnumber.
Um.
And I'm not, I won't speak toJapan.
You, you, you two probablycouldn't speak better to the
water regions of Japan, but likeI, my, my understanding is like
(44:33):
northern Japan, it tends to besofter.
Is that
John Puma (44:37):
That's what I've heard
Timothy Sullivan (44:41):
other last questions there, John?
Um, so,
John Puma (44:44):
Um, well, we've got a So this one's a little Well, I'm
just gonna I don't know if it'smorbid or not.
Brandon.
As a neighbor of and volunteerat Greenwood Cemetery.
Oh, yes.
Can you, can you tell us moreabout the Greenwood Kimoto and
how it was developed?
Was it just like you, it was aname because it was placed
nearby or were there somethingto it?
(45:05):
Did you feel particularly goththat day?
Timothy Sullivan (45:08):
spelled about way,
John Puma (45:10):
in the question.
Brandon Doughan (45:11):
I mean, I always feel about 10 percent
goth, but, but the way, the waythat you make Kimoto is you, and
particularly the way we make ithere, is we take our tubs
outside, and we have a portionof our shubo outside
John Puma (45:25):
uh huh.
Brandon Doughan (45:25):
and we have little kids stomp on it.
and get the initial mixinggoing, and
John Puma (45:29):
adults, and also adults.
How many people here havestomped on the rice outside?
All right, so we've
Timothy Sullivan (45:34):
a few
John Puma (45:36):
Not, not as many as I thought, there'd be a little
more.
Brandon Doughan (45:38):
And, and, yeah, there's not many kids here, so.
My favorite part about it is itinvolves, uh, child labor,
unpaid child labor.
in the production of alcohol,um, but, but, but what's
happening there is, is, youknow, we've just taken rice and
steamed it, so it's sterile, andwe bring it outside, so, so
there's bacteria falling on it.
(45:59):
Um, and, and that kicks off thelacto fermentation process, or
the very complicated Kimotoversion of that.
Um, and then that produces acidand makes a nice space for yeast
to grow.
So that's, that's how Kimoto is,is done.
Um, but we're in New York City,um, we've got a little bit of a,
like a pretty courtyard here.
(46:20):
Um, but it's, the rest of it'skind of a concrete jungle, it's,
it's not a lot of like, likenature here.
But very close to us.
is a very old and beautifulcemetery.
So that's gothic, I guess.
But it's very lovely to walkaround Greenwood Cemetery.
Um, I've tried to collect yeastout of the cemetery.
(46:42):
Um, it's, like, it is SouthBrooklyn's nature space.
For better or worse.
But it is, um, and so I'm likekind of paying homage to where
we are.
And that's part of the story.
John Puma (47:00):
Okay.
So we have, um, there are two,um, Two separate questions for
each of our toji today.
Um, and uh, so since, um, let'sgo Kato san, were there any,
were there any issues with theclimate when you make sake every
day?
(47:21):
Uh, because you're making sakeyear round, sometimes it's
wintertime, sometimes it'ssummertime and you're in New
York and you got to deal with,um, with adjusting for that as,
as the things go on.
Does that mess with fermentationfor you?
Do you have to make adjustmentsfor that?
Shinobu Kato (47:35):
for that?
Okay.
John Puma (47:38):
Climate in like keeping your, uh, keeping your,
your
Shinobu Kato (47:41):
I know climate is a problem as a kind of much
bigger, bigger, bigger topic.
John Puma (47:46):
but
Shinobu Kato (47:47):
I know that Climate brewery.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Puma (47:50):
Since, since Japanese breweries just brew in the
wintertime and you're
Shinobu Kato (47:53):
I, I know
John Puma (47:54):
days a year, You know, you gotta adjust.
Shinobu Kato (47:57):
You know, as Brandon said, we don't have like
100 years of experience, sohaving more controlled
environment or climate, meaninglike climate in the building,
helps us a lot.
You know, of course,traditionally, it's been sake is
(48:19):
made in more like a naturalsetup, so you know, you cannot
control the temperature of yourtank.
It's up to the, you know, howcold or warm this winter is,
poses a lot of extra uncertaintyand invaluables for us who does
not have that.
You know, hundred years of logof how to, you know, work with a
(48:42):
different changing environment,right?
Oh, and then there are a fewthings that we can control as a
brewer, and climate, or likeclimate meaning like a more like
a, you know, the system climate,is one of the few things that we
can control.
We cannot control the microbes,but at least we can control the,
the, like a climate, right?
Temperature, humidity, whateverwe have in the tank and in the
(49:06):
space.
So, that's a big benefit for,like, modern brewers.
John Puma (49:11):
uh, I, I, brandon, has, anything about your brewing
process changed since BrooklynKura's partnership with
Hakkaisan?
Uh,
Brandon Doughan (49:22):
yes.
Um, A, we've gone from a 3, 000square foot space to a 20, 000
square foot space.
Um, and, and, and with a lotmore machines, so it's, it's
been a challenge this, this lastyear to wrap our heads around,
um, using all this newequipment, getting it up and
running.
We worked with really greatcontractors to build our space,
(49:46):
but none of them have ever builta sake brewery before.
John Puma (49:50):
ha ha
Brandon Doughan (49:50):
So we've had to like, you know, kind of learn a
lot of new things.
And then the partnership withHakaisan is we're fortunate to
have some very technicalKuribito come and help us get to
this new scale.
And it's really been acollaboration.
So I've, I've, I've like, I'vebeen very open to changing how
(50:12):
I've been making sake.
Um, particularly going from 500kilograms, like the biggest
batches we made previously, to2, 000 kilograms.
and I think there's also achange in the sake brewing on
scale.
So, we were mentioning earlierthat it's really hard to make a
drinkable sake at home.
(50:33):
Like, I, I know that probably alot of people listening to this
podcast have tried, it's, it's,it's tough, so it's not, you're
not, like, doing a bad job, it'sjust really, really hard.
Um, so, so as you get up tolarger scales, a lot of things
take care of themselves.
At 2, 000 kilograms, thetemperature is more moderate,
it's a large thermal mass, soit's easier to control the
(50:55):
temperature in the long range.
and so, I already forgot yourquestion, but like, but the way
our sake has changed is, is, Ithink, I really like how Timothy
put it at once, it's, it's,It's, our newer versions of the
same sake we're brewing are asofter expression.
I think that's true.
I think it's more rounded.
It's, it's just, it's just thescale of it now.
(51:19):
and additionally, we, we can, weused to just lay the rice out,
uh, like, like, like Shinobu,you were doing now, and, and,
and that's rough in August tocool it down to get it to sake
brewing temperatures.
but, but now we, we have the,We're very fortunate to have
machines that cool the rice downvery quickly.
So we, so, so, our seasonalbrewing is more normalized now,
(51:41):
so we're, we're, we're trying tolike, uh, uh, figure that out to
be consistent brewers all yearround.
Timothy Sullivan (51:49):
Yeah.
That's
Shinobu Kato (51:50):
when we were doing the expansion, that yeah,
there's a lot of small problems,but once you're bigger, those
things will go away.
And then actually, they wentaway for us, too.
Brandon Doughan (52:02):
great,
Shinobu Kato (52:02):
Yeah, so I fully agree with what you told me.
Yeah,
John Puma (52:06):
Well, Shinobu, I remember when you were in your
first space, you had your, your,your, like, little, like, uh,
koji closet it was like, it wasprobably smaller than the table
we're sitting at right now.
It was very like a, like a, likea small, like a, like a train
set area.
And, uh, it was like, wow,you're making koji in that?
And you're like, yes, I am.
Timothy Sullivan (52:24):
ha ha
Brandon Doughan (52:25):
And
John Puma (52:26):
And it's delicious.
Brandon Doughan (52:27):
this
Timothy Sullivan (52:29):
this has been absolutely fantastic.
John, I don't know about you,but I cannot think of a better
way to spend sake day than withBrandon and Shinobu and this
wonderful audience we have herewith us today.
Brandon Doughan (52:43):
come and record with us.
Shinobu Kato (52:45):
so fantastic
Timothy Sullivan (52:46):
all.
Shinobu Kato (52:50):
time
John Puma (52:50):
still wrapping my head around the audience part.
Timothy Sullivan (52:52):
Yes, it's fantastic.
John Puma (52:55):
this way towards you guys.
Timothy Sullivan (52:57):
It's been so fantastic to have you guys,
Brandon, Shinobu.
We want to thank you so much formaking the time on Sake day to
come and record with us.
It's so great to get yourinsight, to taste your sake with
you, so special.
And I just can't thank youenough for being with us today,
so thank you very
Brandon Doughan (53:15):
Oh, thanks for having us,
Shinobu Kato (53:16):
so very much.
Thanks for having us.
Some really insightful and
Timothy Sullivan (53:26):
All right.
now now
John Puma (53:29):
you everybody for providing some really insightful
and interesting PG 13 questions.
We
Timothy Sullivan (53:35):
Yes, you're, you're, this, this crowd is
going to put us out of businesswith our sake questions here.
John Puma (53:40):
we We're just gonna steal their ideas and
incorporate them in the show.
Timothy Sullivan (53:43):
Yes, well, it was so wonderful to taste with
both of you, with our beautifulaudience.
John, always a pleasure.
And I just want to thank ourlisteners so much today for
tuning in.
You'll be listening to thisafter the fact, after Sake Day,
but I hope through the audienceparticipation and through our
wonderful toji's here that yougot a sense of how much we
enjoyed Sake Day here atBrooklyn Kura and tasting these
(54:07):
two beautiful sakes.
I also want to take a moment andsay hello and thank you to our
patrons.
Thank you so much for supportingus and for making Sake
Revolution possible.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting our podcast,
please visitPatreon.com/sakerevolution.
John Puma (54:24):
There is also a link at SakeRevolution.
com to visit our Patreon.
But more importantly, there is alink to our show notes in there.
Tim, make sure that everyepisode has a really, really
nice transcript of every singleepisode.
Um, I put a little work intothat.
Tim puts a lot of work intothat, so make sure that you
check it out because it'sawesome.
(54:45):
And, uh, we also talk aboutthis.
We also have all the informationand photos of the sakes that we
taste every time we do this.
And on that note, please raiseyour glass, remember to keep
drinking sake, and Kanpai!
this is America's First Sake Podcast.
I am one of your intrepid hosts.
My name is John Puma.
You may know me from the SakeNotes or the Internet Sake
Discord or Reddit's r slash sakecommunity.
I like to build sakecommunities, apparently.
Timothy Sullivan (00:38):
And I'm your other host.
My name is Timothy Sullivan.
I'm the director of education atthe Sake Studies Center.
And I'm the founder of the UrbanSake website.
And every week, we will be heretasting and chatting about all
things sake, and do our best tomake it fun and easy to
understand.
John, so good to see you.
John Puma (00:56):
Yeah, Tim, I'm sitting across the table from
you which is a very rare raretreat, normally we are on zoom
John, so good
Timothy Sullivan (01:00):
Well today is a very special day in the sake
lover's calendar, isn't it?
Yes, today is sake day, and weare celebrating by doing one of
our very rare live sake podcastrecordings.
We are at the Brooklyn KuraTaproom.
We have some VIP guests with us.
(01:22):
And the best thing that we havegoing on today is that we have a
live studio audience.
So,
Shinobu Kato (01:30):
will
Timothy Sullivan (01:34):
alright.
John Puma (01:35):
my.
Yeah, this will be our secondtime doing a live studio
audience.
The first time, of course, waslast year at the, uh, North
American craft Sake Festivaldown in Virginia.
And yeah, it's nice to, nice tohave you guys and we're indoors
this time.
It's a little bit, slightly lesshot than it was in Virginia in
the middle of the summer.
(01:56):
Uh, and it's, it's a lot of funto be here.
Timothy Sullivan (01:59):
Yes, and we decided to focus, since we're in
New York City, we decided tofocus our episode today on some
of the toji's of New York City.
And we've invited the two masterbrewers that we have here in New
York City to join us as guests.
So I would like to welcomeBrandon Doughan of Brooklyn
Kura.
Welcome, Brandon.
Brandon Doughan (02:18):
Thanks so much for having me again.
uh, this is nice of
Timothy Sullivan (02:25):
And we also have Shinobu Kato from Kato Sake
Works, also in New York
John Puma (02:34):
So, uh, this is nice.
So the thing is that neither ofyou guys are strangers to this
show.
You guys have all been here.
At least once.
Shinobu's only been here the onetime.
He was here in, uh, episode 51.
Which I think was a really funtime to have him.
I think he was celebrating hisfirst anniversary of, of Kato
Sake Works.
And, uh, Brandon You're a repeatoffender.
Brandon Doughan (02:56):
I've been here more than Byron a Proper Sake.
Is what my answer to that?
I
John Puma (03:00):
I think this officially puts you ahead of
him.
Brandon Doughan (03:02):
right.
John Puma (03:04):
So, we'll have to have Byron on, you guys can
battle at some point.
I'm going to be excited to seethat.
Timothy Sullivan (03:09):
Awesome.
Well, we would like both of youto introduce yourselves to our
listeners who may not have heardthose previous episodes.
Can you give us a quickintroduction, a little bit about
your background and how you gotinto sake, how you became a sake
brewer.
So, Shinobu, why don't we startwith you?
Shinobu Kato (03:25):
start?
Okay, Okay, uh, my name isShinobu Kato, and, uh, I make
sake at the Kato Sake Works.
Please don't take any questionsfrom that table, because that's
the entire Kato Sake crew, and Iknow that they are putting hard
questions on me.
But, anyway, uh, How I started?
I, I, I've been kind of aserious drinker when I was in,
(03:48):
in Japan, but this countrydoesn't give me like enough sake
that I needed, so I just startedhome brewing at home when I was
in Tennessee.
That was like 10 years ago.
And then, you know, I moved toBrooklyn.
Because I thought nobody'smaking sake here.
John Puma (04:06):
here.
Brandon Doughan (04:07):
here.
Shinobu Kato (04:10):
So that, that, that's my story.
Brandon Doughan (04:12):
Alright
John Puma (04:12):
mostly
Brandon Doughan (04:14):
I'm Brandon Doughan, I'm the master brewer
of Brooklyn Kura.
Um, I got into sake, uh, mostlyout of, uh, interest in
fermentation.
Uh, sake is one of the weirderfermented beverages in the
world.
Um, so, I'm interested in allthings weird fermented, um, and
(04:35):
then I met my business partner,uh, Brian, in Japan, and we
happened to wander into a verytraditional sake brewery and got
the bug, um, and then quit ourold jobs and started making sake
here in Brooklyn.
Timothy Sullivan (04:50):
How long have each of you been brewing?
How Long have you been brewing?
Even starting at home brewing,how many years have you been
practicing your craft?
Shinobu Kato (05:00):
I think like 10 years, I guess.
Yeah, but my first batch waslike, you know, One bucket, one
fridge, you know, I don't knowwhat I was doing, so just follow
the instruction on the internet.
And then I made something likesake.
So,
Brandon Doughan (05:16):
Um, fermentation in general, since
before I was 21.
Um, and it's been beer and wineand lacto fermentation.
Um, even shoyu before sake.
but sake really, seriously, thelast ten years or so.
(05:37):
And and it's true, brewing sakeat home is, is difficult, and
it's very difficult on thatsmall scale to get a good
result.
John Puma (05:46):
Well, um, but one thing that we find really
interesting is that for peoplewho have been to Japan and have
gone to sake breweries in Japan,sake breweries are usually kind
of out there.
They're kind of over in thecountryside, they're kind of,
you gotta take the train to thebus, and then after the bus
you're gonna walk for a bit, andthen you're going to this
parking lot, and then there's arice field on the right, and
(06:06):
then the brewery's on the left.
But you guys are doing this inone of the most major
metropolitan areas in the world.
How's that different?
And what's that do for you guys?
What's that mean for you guys?
Brandon Doughan (06:18):
Well, I think there's pros and cons.
Um, I think the pro is thatwe're in New York City, we're in
the largest Sake market, um, inthe United States.
So we have people such as ouraudience, um, that already kind
of know about sake andappreciate sake.
So we've already got that, youknow, that fan consumer base
(06:39):
there.
Um, another thing, I moved herefrom the West Coast.
Another thing that, um, is greatabout New York City is its
water.
you know, I'm sure you've donemany episodes on terroir for
sake, but, but, but water doesplay an effect, um, and it
doesn't seem like the largestmetropolitan area in the United
States would have good water,but it is fantastic for sake
John Puma (07:00):
and Shinobu?
Shinobu Kato (07:01):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more on the water.
Oh, I didn't do my researchbefore I moved to, so it was
just lucky, but yeah, New YorkCity water is really good.
I don't know, in my case, oh, Igrew up in Tokyo, so I never
lived in the countryside, so Inever thought about that.
And then, you know, I spent tenyears in Tennessee, so I had
enough,
Timothy Sullivan (07:21):
had enough.
It's
Shinobu Kato (07:22):
you know, slow life, so I needed to come back
to the city.
And then I needed to dosomething for myself, so it was
like, no option.
Timothy Sullivan (07:32):
Yeah.
I know that when, when I visitbrewers that are out in the
country, they talk about thepurity of their water, the
purity of the air, you know,it's so clean there.
Uh, do you guys see anychallenges being in the city?
Uh, any, uh, logisticalchallenges or any, any practical
challenges being in such ametropolitan area?
Brandon Doughan (07:53):
I guess, um, I mean, it's, the situation of
sake brewing in the UnitedStates in general is that we, we
are removed from our ricesource.
Like, our, our rice is grown ineither California or Arkansas.
It has to get on a truck and getto us.
Um, uh, um, you know, prettymuch everything but the water
has to get on a truck and get tous.
And so there's that logisticalchallenge.
(08:15):
Um, yeah, what do you think?
Shinobu Kato (08:17):
Yeah, that's true.
That's kind of weird thingbecause you get the rice on the
palate and then that's how youstart making things in the
building, and then once it'sdone, it goes out from the, you
know, the loading dock.
So you don't have a goodconnection to the, to the land
or to the, you know, ecosystemthat everything comes
Brandon Doughan (08:41):
of Yeah, you and I are not growing rice in
the off season.
Timothy Sullivan (08:44):
So one thing you mentioned, Brandon, a moment
ago was about the consumer basethat we have here.
And I think that's so important.
I'd love to talk to you guys alittle bit about that.
I know that.
Shinobu at Kato Sake Works,you're really growing a
community of sake lovers in yourneighborhood, and during the
pandemic, especially, you haddirect outreach.
(09:05):
Can you talk a little bit aboutgrowing that community and
growing sake with your localsthat you have right there?
Shinobu Kato (09:12):
growing Yes, so when I started Kato Sake in NY,
I had a kinda business plan orwhatever the idea that, hey,
maybe I should sell our sakeManhattan, you know, like a nice
omakase place or something likethat.
And then pandemic happened, andthen all the, the trains or
subways were so disgusting, soyou didn't want to even touch
(09:33):
anything in the subway.
Oh, so everybody stayed at home,just, you know, walk around in
your apartment.
And then that's how we startedour business.
And it was a great discovery toknow that, oh, there are more
interests.
In the, just, the people on thestreet, they are very curious,
and if there's an opportunityright next to their apartment,
(09:54):
they are open to try somethingnew, right?
So that was how we started, andthen, you know, I'm, probably we
are still doing that at our ownspace, that most of the
customers are somewhere in,like, in the neighborhood, and
uh, we just, you know, hang outwith people, and then, you know,
dogs, and then kids, and thenit's kind of fun, yeah.
John Puma (10:17):
And in contrast to what Shinobu did during the
pandemic, Brooklyn Kura, youguys did the opposite and you
reached out and started doingdelivery services.
You guys started, started KuraKin at that point and started
doing like, Oh, let's try aninteresting batch and get it out
to people and see what theythink.
What was that process like foryou?
Brandon Doughan (10:35):
Well, we went from, uh, Brian basically, uh,
driving his car around Manhattanand getting a lot of tickets and
delivering sake, uh, to those,to that period in the pandemic,
um, where we started Kurakin,it's our sake subscription, sake
club.
and as far as being the brewer,it, it gave me a chance to, to
(10:57):
try some small batches.
We have a few small tanks.
It gave me a chance toexperiment more because we had
our kind of our big productsthat we had were starting to
refine and make consistent.
but you know, I'm a new brewer.
I don't have a hundred years ofhistory, uh, behind me.
so it's always good to, to trynew things and, and try new
(11:18):
rice, try new yeast, try two newtechniques.
And the Kurakin has really kindof given me that opportunity to
experiment.
and mostly succeed in thoseexperiments and then, and then
have, you know, get feedbackfrom our, from our members.
John Puma (11:33):
so Tim, uh, I think it is time for us to taste a
sake, is that
Timothy Sullivan (11:39):
Yes, we, uh, have the great pleasure to taste
two sakes, one from Brandon, onefrom Shinobu, and uh, I've
remember many visits to Japan,tasting sake with the master
brewer who made it is somethingreally special.
And we're gonna have thatopportunity today and share it
with our studio audience.
(11:59):
Is everyone excited to tastewith the tojis??
Yes.
Alright.
so I'm going to pour the firstsake from Kato Sake Works.
This is a Junmai, and we have todo our what could you call it?
(12:19):
This is our signature it's
John Puma (12:21):
it's our signature ASMR
Timothy Sullivan (12:22):
Yes.
So we're going to see if we cancapture this on audio.
John Puma (12:30):
Pretty good, pretty good.
I think, yeah, I think it didit.
Timothy Sullivan (12:35):
So I'm going to pass that
Shinobu Kato (12:36):
Do I have to do the same thing If
John Puma (12:39):
can, that would be awesome, but, you know.
Timothy Sullivan (12:43):
Shinobu san, we're going to start with you.
And you have brought us yourJunmai sake from Kato Sake
Works.
And I noticed you have a speciallimited label on the bottle, so
I'd love to hear about that.
But can you introduce us to thisfirst sake?
Okay.
Shinobu Kato (13:02):
Sure.
So this is our Junmai.
And although you've been sayingthat I made this Junmai,
actually it's more Maxinesitting over there making this
sake, so, yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (13:13):
Yay,
Maxine! Maxine yeah, but
Shinobu Kato (13:15):
anyway, uh, so this is our flagship Junmai, and
we use 60 percent Calrose.
Uh, Calrose is just likeordinary eating rice that
everybody eat at the, you know,whatever the restaurant that you
go.
So, uh, and then, uh, althoughwe call it Junmai, it's
Technically Junmai, Ginjo, butwe just want to make things
simple.
(13:36):
Oh, very classic, a little bitbolder, had more sugar and
acidity, I think.
Oh, so it's a little bit louder,sake, that when I explain to the
customers, this is more likeAmerican style because you are
loud and then noisy.
Yeah.
I understand,
John Puma (13:52):
yeah, I noticed, I noticed on your label you
actually, um, suggest, uh, inaddition to taste like and pairs
like, you have a pairing formusic, or what it sounds like,
keyboard riffs.
Shinobu Kato (14:05):
yeah, so that's what we do because, uh, more
than half of our team membersare musicians.
Not me, I don't play any musicinstruments, but everybody else
does that.
Uh, especially James and, uh,Maxine.
Uh, but anyway, it's kind of funwhen we are doing the tasting
notes.
You know, tasting note,sometimes people take it so
seriously, and we want people totake tasting note more
(14:27):
personable, right?
Depending on what kind of dietyou grew up with, your Pairing
might be completely different.
In the same way, music is verypersonal, so we just want to
suggest to people that, hey,take the tasting note more like
how you listen to music.
John Puma (14:44):
awesome.
You
Timothy Sullivan (14:45):
That's awesome.
I, you know, I noticed there'ssome brewers and some breweries
that don't want to focus as muchon the stats that the sake geeks
like us really love.
Like, what's the amino acid?
What's the rice millingpercentage?
What's the acidity?
How do you feel about that ingeneral?
Shinobu Kato (15:02):
That's what we probably do.
You know, Maxine has all thedata, but at the end of the day
we are like, yeah, it tastesright, you know?
Timothy Sullivan (15:12):
you.
Awesome.
So, that was a wonderfulintroduction.
So, that was a wonderfulintroduction So, why don't we
take this, uh, in the glass, andlet's give it a smell.
John Puma (15:24):
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (15:25):
So there's some lovely rice aromas.
That must be that calrose comingthrough.
Now, you work a lot withcalrose.
Is that the only rice you use?
Shinobu Kato (15:34):
So far, yes, except one time we didn't get
cow roast on time and we have togo to Chinatown to get the Oh
no, but we still get theCalrose, just a different
polish.
That's,
John Puma (15:45):
get is because we polish.
Is
Shinobu Kato (15:50):
Chinese
John Puma (15:51):
Chinatown
Timothy Sullivan (15:51):
Is this the Chinatown edition?
John Puma (15:54):
about
Shinobu Kato (15:54):
This is the one that we get pallet on the right
day edition.
John Puma (15:58):
for
Timothy Sullivan (15:58):
wonderful.
Now, now talk to us about thislabel.
You did a special labeling forSake Day.
Is that right?
Shinobu Kato (16:04):
right?
Yes.
So, you know, sake day isspecial, and then people want to
make a, uh, special thing aboutsake day and sake week, but, you
know, So we have a story abouthow sake day started from like
a, you know, brewing season inJapan and how traditionally it
was made.
Oh, but at the same time,probably same is true for
(16:24):
Brandon, but we make sake everyday, every season.
So, you know, the originalmeaning of the sake day, the
starting of the season, doesn'tmean anything.
to us, right?
So our message is, yeah, today'sa great special day and we wanna
celebrate today as a sake day,but can we make sake day as 365
(16:49):
every day so that we cancelebrate this every day?
Timothy Sullivan (16:52):
I love that.
Yeah.
So, while we have it in theglass, let's taste the Junmai
from Kato Sake
John Puma (16:58):
let's.
Timothy Sullivan (16:58):
together.
So, It's lovely.
Yeah.
So, you work magic with calrose,I have to say.
Shinobu Kato (17:06):
Maxine did.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (17:08):
I see.
John Puma (17:11):
Maxine does a lot of magic with Calrose and, and
yeah, it's, it's beeninteresting to see, like you've
been using Cal Roses, uh, for aslong as, uh, Kato Saki works has
been going, but so many of yourSAS tastes different from one
another.
And so it's so interesting thatyou're, a lot of, uh, north
American breweries get excitedabout new types of rices, new
types of Polish.
I said, you're like, I got thisrice, I'm gonna do all these
(17:32):
different things with it.
What was your, your thought waslike, I know I can get this, or
was it more along the lines oflike, I see something more with
this?
Shinobu Kato (17:40):
think initially it was more like logistical and
economical reason, right?
You want to make the same sakeconsistently, but we don't have
a luxury to have a big batch, sowe have to make a small batch
like regularly.
How can we get the rice, thesame type of rice?
Consistently supplied and thenwe don't have a big warehouse so
(18:04):
we don't have a space to getlike five pallets of rice,
right?
So we need to have like halfpallets every week kind of
situation.
John Puma (18:12):
option
Shinobu Kato (18:13):
Only option was calrose, because Yamada Nishiki
and another Sake were not thatconsistent, right?
And then we did not have aluxury to, hey, let's do this
for this batch and then let's dosomething else for other batch,
then we don't have a, uh, likerestaurants that trust us, like,
hey, your sake, like number 14,always taste the same, right?
(18:34):
So kind of, from that kind of,uh, reason that we started using
calrose as a base ingredient.
And then I fell in love with thestory, or history, of Calrose,
like, okay, you know, Japaneseimmigration, and then how it was
adapted in the U.
S.
culture.
And without Calrose as an eatingrice, there was no California
roll.
Without California roll, there'sno omakase in Manhattan right
(18:56):
now.
And without having an omakase inManhattan, maybe there's not two
sake breweries in Brooklyn rightnow.
So, I like that story, and Ilike that idea, and we still
don't have a space to store anyother type of rice at the
brewery yet.
Yeah, so that's another reason.
John Puma (19:12):
That'll be the third iteration of the brewery
Timothy Sullivan (19:13):
Yes.
Brandon Doughan (19:14):
I mean, I, I love Calrose, um, we use a lot
of it as well, and, and I thinkof it as the American sake mai.
like, there, there's, there are,how many, what's the count now
for small sake American brewersnow?
Is it 20, 20, 27, so there's 27small American sake brewers, and
a lot of them are very small,and, and, like, working on
(19:37):
minimal budgets, and, and,calrose is, is an affordable
rice.
Um, uh, Yamada nishiki is anexpensive rice.
Um, so, so, you know, Americanshave leaned into calrose, and I
think they're doing wonderfulthings with it, and maybe people
don't think it's going to be agood sake rice because it's also
(19:58):
a food rice, but it is, and wejust, we just had to learn how
to use it.
Timothy Sullivan (20:02):
Absolutely.
I do want to ask you one morequestion about your sake,
Shinobu.
I want you to speak a little bitabout the sweetness to dryness
profile, because what it comesthrough for me is this is not a
bone dry sake, and there's ahint of noticeable sweetness
there.
So what's, what's your feelingon that balance between sweet
and dry?
Shinobu Kato (20:20):
You know, there's a big discussion going on in the
internet about this.
Dryness of sake in like aJapanese like a sake geek board
kind of thing.
So but anyway, that's completelydifferent topic, but so our sake
probably has more sugar comparedto, uh, like a typical
mainstream, uh, Junmai sake, uh,but also has more acidity, yeah.
(20:43):
So depending on what kind ofdrinking background you have,
you find this sake dry or youfind sake, you find this sake
sweet.
And, uh, still we are learningthat question.
We have a customer like, hey,give me the driest sake you
have, and I, I I gave up, so Iusually give like three
(21:04):
different styles and you tellme.
And each time, people have verydifferent answers.
Yeah, and some people think thatthis sake is too sweet, some
people think that this sake isdry,
Timothy Sullivan (21:17):
Yeah.
Shinobu Kato (21:18):
and I'm completely confused.
John Puma (21:21):
I'm hungry for
Timothy Sullivan (21:25):
Yes.
Good answer.
John Puma (21:26):
very, it's a confusion,
Timothy Sullivan (21:29):
Yes.
Uh, I heard, Uh, there's a veryfamous quote, the customer is
always right in matters of taste
John Puma (21:34):
funny word.
Timothy Sullivan (21:36):
Excellent.
Well, uh, Kato San, this is afantastic Junmai.
Very, very drinkable.
Congratulations to you andMaxine.
It's, it's very, very delicious.
Very good.
Yes.
So, John, should we move on tothe Brooklyn Kura?
John Puma (21:54):
think we should.
Timothy Sullivan (21:55):
right.
So from Brooklyn Kura, we aregoing to be tasting a Junmai
Ginjo, the Grand Prairie.
So let's give this a pour and doour audio.
John Puma (22:06):
are you going to do?
So while we're getting thatpoured out there, Brandon.
Brandon Doughan (22:18):
Yes.
John Puma (22:19):
Grand Prairie.
What's with the name?
Brandon Doughan (22:22):
Um, this name was coined, uh, by a former
bartender of ours, Sam.
Um, and it refers to the areain, Arkansas where rice is
grown.
So it's a, it's a flat area ineastern Arkansas where the
Mississippi has been meanderingfor millions of years and made
And, like, ideal rice paddygrowing area.
John Puma (22:44):
All right.
tell us a little bit about this.
Junmai Ginjo Yamadanishiki.
What
Brandon Doughan (22:47):
so, so, this is, Grand Prairie is, um, made
with Yamada Nishiki, fromArkansas, milled to 60%, and,
and, it changes a little, alittle bit each time.
I'm really trying to, like,Capture what American
yamanashiki tastes like.
(23:08):
Again, I know you've doneterroir or, or, or like, like
what is contributing to thetaste of sake, and it's
complicated.
And it's difficult for me todrink a sake and guess what the
rice is.
John Puma (23:21):
umhum
Brandon Doughan (23:22):
But, but, you know, we, rices available to us,
and, and with this particularginjo, um, I'm trying to like,
Understand what Yamadanishikitastes like.
So I use a yeast that's, that'skind of simple.
Um, I'm, I'm trying to like,let, let the rice be its own
thing.
Um, and, and just trying tobalance the rice, uh, the, the,
(23:46):
the glucose and the acidity tokind of show that off.
John Puma (23:50):
Well, Tim, the aroma,
Timothy Sullivan (23:51):
Yeah, let's get the aroma.
John Puma (23:53):
so I think this also has a lot of that, a little bit
of that Rice-iness
Timothy Sullivan (23:56):
Hmm.
John Puma (23:57):
but it's a different rice.
You can tell that right away.
Timothy Sullivan (24:01):
Absolutely.
And I always, I always find whenI teach sake classes that I
learn so much by side by sidecomparisons.
So I'm actually going to go backto Kato and smell this one,
smell them side by side.
Calrose versus Yamadanishiki Ithink the aroma for the, uh,
Grand Prairie with YamadaNishiki is a little more lifted
and a little more perfumed thanthe Calrose.
John Puma (24:23):
And the calrose comes in, it's a little, it's the
aroma, it makes me think ofsomething to be a little more
tangy, a little more sweet
Timothy Sullivan (24:29):
Hmm.
John Puma (24:29):
Whereas this one feels a little more, uh, a
little more like that, thatsweet rice,
Timothy Sullivan (24:33):
Yeah, so.
John Puma (24:34):
sweet rice.
Timothy Sullivan (24:35):
Let's give the Grand Prairie a taste.
Yeah, so I think with both ofthese sakes the word that keeps
popping to my mind is balance,like this great balance between
sweetness and dryness andacidity and umami.
There's, there's wonderfulbalance and I think that that's
(24:55):
what makes a great sake.
Those people who search for likethe ultimate super dry, or like
that super, super sweet.
I think that's a stool with, youknow, the legs are unbalanced.
But if you have, uh, theacidity, the sugar, and the
umami all in balance, it createsa wonderful experience for sake.
(25:15):
And both of these sakes, for me,represent, Great balance.
What do you think, John?
John Puma (25:19):
I agree, so neither of these are wild or crazy
style.
Timothy Sullivan (25:25):
know,
John Puma (25:26):
they are not to dry or too sweet they are right
where you want them They areboth really approachable..
I think that's a good way to putit.
I find it really interestingthat, um, so Brandon's using
the, you know, the Americanversion of the king of Japanese
Sakamai.
And Shinobu's using the AmericanSakamai.
(25:49):
And I think it's like, it's,it's a little interesting about
that.
I think it's a little fun thatyou guys, it's a fun little
thing we get to play with heretoday.
Timothy Sullivan (25:56):
So, as we're winding up our sake portion, if
anyone has questions thatthey've written out, please
raise your hand, and the staffwill come around and collect
those and bring those up to us.
Uh, we encourage everyone tosubmit questions.
John Puma (26:09):
Um, yeah, So while they're taking care of that,
there's a couple things wewanted to chat with you guys
about.
And that is, you guys are, youknow, we're in New York, you
guys are in the biggestmetropolitan area in the US,
we're going to call it that.
Um, LA may argue, but they'rewrong.
Now, um, but you guys arelooking to get outside and share
your sake with the rest of theworld, Brandon, you were just in
(26:32):
Japan.
You were pouring sake at aJapanese event called Sake Jump.
And Shinobu, you just got donereleasing your sake.
In Puerto Rico, which was not onmy bingo card, but it's super
cool.
I'm really
Shinobu Kato (26:46):
excited
John Puma (26:47):
about that.
So I want to ask each of youkind of like what went on with
that and how that's been for youguys.
So we'll start with Brandon andthen we'll go over to Shinobu.
Brandon Doughan (26:56):
Yeah, so, Japan stays hot much longer than I
thought it does.
So that was the first thing Iremember about Sake Jump, it was
extremely hot.
Um, but it was an incredibleopportunity.
Sake Jump is an event.
tries to draw in, like, young,innovative brewers.
there were a lot of, of, ofthis, uh, doberoku license, this
(27:16):
new doberoku license in Japan.
these young guys there, I'mflattered that they thought I
was young to invite us.
John Puma (27:25):
Um,
Brandon Doughan (27:25):
But we were the first non Japanese sake brewery
to pour at this event, and itwas just overwhelmingly
positive.
I think, I think, you know, asmaybe we all know, uh, sake in
Japan is on the decline.
I mean, the cool kids aredrinking IPA and Japanese
whiskey, um, but, but thisreally is kind of, it seemed
(27:46):
cool to me, um, and, and, andthen like people were really
excited about it and they'rereally enthused, as I, as I
poured sake for them, it wasjust, people were amazed that
somebody outside of Japan wasmake, even making sake, and they
really loved the sake.
So, it was a really like.
Positive, uh, uh, supportiveEvent That's That's
John Puma (28:07):
awesome.
So Shinobu, tell me about PuertoRico.
Shinobu Kato (28:11):
It was good.
that location That was my firstvacation for like five years
since we opened the brewery.
Yeah, so it was good.
Yeah, and I made that as a halfbusiness trip.
But, you know, the ultimatepurpose was to go to the beach.
Brandon Doughan (28:31):
Laughter.
John Puma (28:33):
you succeed?
Shinobu Kato (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, but, uh, you know, we, our, our
brewery is still small, youknow, oh, and then, uh, the
capacity wise, we don't have acapacity to distribute anything
outside of New York City, uh, ormaybe New York State at the
most, right, so we don't haveany plan to go anywhere outside
(28:55):
of New York State, but I justwanted to have a vacation, and,
uh, you know, we have a lot of,But, you know, Bushwick is very
Puertorican, right?
Yeah, so, oh, my neighbor'sPuertorican, you know, uh,
there's like a food stand,Puertorican, like a, what's it
called, pincho stand, and thenrestaurants, everything.
So we wanted to kind ofappreciate and then kind of, uh,
(29:20):
contribute, contribute back tothe community who accepted us
as, like, a new business.
And then, you know, there are acouple of regulars that, hey, I.
I know somebody who wants tohave a sake in Puerto Rico, so
can you ship it?
And we figured it out and then Iwent there and then had a nice
vacation.
Timothy Sullivan (29:38):
Shinobu, that's what we call work life
balance.
Yes.
Very, very well done.
John Puma (29:46):
Tokyo?
No.
Brandon Doughan (29:47):
little bit.
John Puma (29:47):
Okay, good.
Timothy Sullivan (29:49):
Work life balance.
John Puma (29:50):
That's also a balance.
Timothy Sullivan (29:51):
Well, We think it's wonderful that both of you
are reaching outside of NewYork, and it is a wonderful
indication of the growth of thesake industry, It just gets me
thinking, like, when we have ourreunion live episode in five
years, in ten years, where areyou going to be selling?
Yeah, it's going to be amazing.
So, John, we got some questionsfrom the audience
John Puma (30:11):
We did,
Timothy Sullivan (30:12):
did you, uh, do you want to go first
John Puma (30:14):
Sure, sure.
So, so first I have to like,there's this one I need to just
kind of get out of the way.
And, um, that is, somebody askedif there will be a collaboration
sake between Kato Sake works
Timothy Sullivan (30:23):
and
John Puma (30:23):
Brooklyn Kura, and, uh, it happened already.
Brandon Doughan (30:26):
Oh, it's
gonna happen again It's gonna
Shinobu Kato (30:28):
happen
Brandon Doughan (30:28):
It's gonna continue to happen.
Shinobu Kato (30:29):
It's recorded, so happening
Brandon Doughan (30:31):
No, we had a great time.
Uh, we made a sake called, uh,pizza bagel and and that refers
to our common ingredient, whichis our, uh, our New York City
water.
Um, so, so we were just talking,I had a tour with Kato Sake
Works, um, earlier today, and wewere talking about doing this
(30:51):
collaboration again, and I knowthat a lot of other American
sake breweries listen to thispodcast, and I think we should
all be doing that.
Like I think we should, like Iwill do a collaboration with
every other sake brewery in theUnited States, and we should all
be like collaborating and doingsomething together.
John Puma (31:08):
sounds like a lot of fun.
I, I'm down for that.
I want to, I want to taste thosesakes.
Timothy Sullivan (31:13):
Can you remind us, that Pizza, Bagel, sake,
that collaboration you didbefore?
How did that work?
What part did each of you do?
Shinobu Kato (31:21):
So at that time we started talking about the
collaboration and Brandon waslike, Hey, we gonna make.
Moto, so can you make moromi onour space?
And we were like, no, becauseyour moto size is our moromi
size, so there's no space in thetank.
So we did a reverse, and then wemade a moto, and then put into
(31:45):
the, like a 20 liter Cambro, andJohnny, I, and then Evan took an
Uber from Bushwick, and then atthe very end at the industry
city, uh, you know.
It was not fully, properly, uh,secured.
And then Johnny got all the motosplash.
Yes, yes.
(32:06):
But we put together the, thebucket into, uh, the tank.
Uh, and then we made that fromthere.
So from there you did take, tookcare of everything.
So we did a little bit easierpart.
I mean, you took care ofeverything.
John Puma (32:20):
So it was technically a three part collaboration.
It was Kato Sake Works, BrooklynKura,
Brandon Doughan (32:26):
and uber, yeah, I know.
We owe 10%.
I mean, I think, I think we doit again.
We both have a little more setupspace now.
I think we can share theresponsibilities a
Shinobu Kato (32:40):
That's true.
Equally
John Puma (32:41):
Mm hmm.
Timothy Sullivan (32:42):
Okay, I got a great question here.
This question has two heartsdrawn on it, too.
It says, for Brandon andShinobu, what are your favorite
styles of sake to drink versusto brew?
Have brewing challenges everaffected your drinking
preferences?
So let's do the, that's a greatquestion, let's do the first
(33:03):
part first.
What are your favorite styles ofsake to drink versus to brew?
Brandon?
Brandon Doughan (33:08):
I enjoy drinking all styles of sake
John Puma (33:12):
That's very diplomatic
Brandon Doughan (33:13):
I, It's true though.
I i, mean, my friends are bothof you and, and like other sake,
Somms and, and, and, and, andthe whole New York sake
community.
So I go out with people and, andit's like, oh, I've got this
weird bottle, like.
Jamie from Skurnik.
Well, I've been keeping thisbottle under my desk for three
years, and he'll pour mesomething, and it's, the story's
(33:34):
fantastic.
It's good.
I only want one glass of it.
But I enjoy, like, all styles ofdrinking sake, and then my
favorite style to produce, um, Ireally do like Yamahai and
Kimoto, making Yamahai andKimoto, just because it's like
making a sake before you makethe sake.
It's good.
It's got its own, Entirefermentation process that
(33:57):
happens just to make the Shubo,uh, before you go into it and,
and like, and to see how, youknow, that translates, it
affects the fermentation of themain fermentation in the final
taste.
So
John Puma (34:08):
Maybe to do a collab with Proper.
You and Byron in the same room,doing a little Kimoto.
I
Brandon Doughan (34:14):
that'll be
Shinobu Kato (34:14):
that'd be fun.
Timothy Sullivan (34:16):
Shinobu, how about for you, styles you like
to drink versus what you like tobrew?
Shinobu Kato (34:21):
So drink, to drink, probably Junmai,
Timothy Sullivan (34:26):
Junmai, Junmai,
Shinobu Kato (34:29):
That's what I probably end up when I'm, like,
in Japan going to, like, smallizakaya by myself and then, you
know, have some Otsumami andthen drink something.
I'd probably end up the nightwith Junmai.
Maybe room temperature warm orsomething like that, but yeah,
yeah, I like Junmai.
Uh, to make, I agree that, youknow, Kimoto, Yamahai, all those
(34:53):
kind of weird stuff, that's morefun.
You know, it's, it's fun.
Very, you know, unpredictable,that requires a lot of care,
right?
Oh, and of course Maxine cantell because she has to do that.
The hand, hand mixing and thestuff, you know, I do that
sometimes too.
But, yeah, but that's a funthing to brew.
John Puma (35:15):
Nice.
So, uh, we got another questionhere and this is, um, I, I
really like this.
So let me try to get this right.
So what is your favorite happyaccident story about making
sake?
Now, not not disaster stories,but like happy accident stories.
Timothy Sullivan (35:29):
accidents.
Who wants
John Puma (35:32):
Who wants to go first?
Shinobu Kato (35:36):
I have probably ten accidents, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying tothink of a happy one.
Brandon Doughan (35:46):
So
Shinobu Kato (35:47):
Well, so far we are lucky that any accidents
that we've done Had were notdisaster, and what we got was
something that we didn't intend,but tasted interesting.
And, uh, we, as a brewer, had abit of higher standard that,
(36:10):
hey, this didn't taste like whatwe intended.
Dump it, right?
But actually, you know, it'smore like it didn't taste like
what we intended, but stillwithin the boundary of good
craft sake.
Yeah, and the customer kind ofliked it.
John Puma (36:30):
Kusuma
Shinobu Kato (36:35):
Yeah, but one time, like, Johnny was like, No,
we should dump this.
And then I was like, Okay,that's a lot of things to dump.
Maybe let's try to pour the taproom still in people Liked it.
Brandon Doughan (36:45):
I'm trying to hang on to some of those,
because, because if you put themin the back of the walk in or
something, like, you could comeback to them six months later,
and, they're remarkable.
Like it, it's rare that thathave There's most are still
terrible, but, but, um, I, Ithink for me, the, the, the
Whole Kura Kin, the thing wehave, the fact that we have
(37:05):
these small tanks, it's, I mean,maybe they're all accidents, but
like, we're, we're just makingstuff up.
We're not, we're not going offof any thing, out of a book or
something.
And we were following a generalrecipe.
So, we're also, I think, theexciting thing about being in
the US, or at least outside ofJapan, is, is that everything we
(37:26):
do is new.
Like, we're, we're like, like,this year's Calrose or this
year's Yamada is like,relatively very very new, and so
we're going to find out aboutit.
And then, and then, you know,whatever yeast we can get, you
know, however we are personallygrowing koji, like, all that's
going to affect it.
So, so.
It's, it's kind of all of anaccident and, and, um, and I
(37:50):
dunno, they're all my favoriteaccidents.
John Puma (37:52):
all your favorite accidents?
Okay.
This is
Timothy Sullivan (37:54):
question.
These are great.
You guys did amazing.
Thank you for all thesequestions.
So this is another good one.
When you first started brewing,were there any Japanese
breweries that inspired yourstyle or your methods?
Thank you.
That's a very good question.
(38:14):
So did you, yeah.
did you, get any inspirationfrom a particular brewery in
Japan when you first startedbrewing, or any breweries you
wanted to emulate?
Shinobu Kato (38:26):
I'll go first, so when I started was when Around
the time that there was, like,high acidity sake is kind of
becoming a trend in Japan and Iwas already moved to the U.
S.
I didn't have a chance to goback there as often, but I went
back there and my friend took meto some, like, cool, like,
(38:46):
hidden sake, not sake bar, butlike, izakaya in Osaka, and it's
crazy.
They had a pool table, and onthe pool table, there's, like,
a, like, a train, model trains,like, running But like a small
like, you know, whatever thegauge train kind of thing.
Yeah, but they had a like a allthis like high acidity sake that
(39:08):
I've never heard of.
Yeah, like, you know, what wasthat?
Like aramasa and zaku and thosekind of things.
And then I was like, oh, I kindof like this, uh, you know, the,
the acid cutting through the,the palate.
So that was one influence that Igot.
And then also, oh Dassai.,
John Puma (39:29):
um
Shinobu Kato (39:29):
Not the flavor, you know, flavor is great, you
know, don't, don't get me wrong,but the production side.
So I visited their facility andthen I saw how they do things.
And then that was like, Oh God,that's interesting.
Very, you know, that works forus like a small breweries.
Oh, so there's a lot of like,you know, uh, light bulbs moment
(39:52):
to me.
Brandon Doughan (39:53):
of thing.
Yeah, I think, um, for It's notreally about any particular
drinking experience, but it issome early visits.
Like, if it's your firstexperience of making sake, it's
an emotional thing that stickswith you.
So I had a couple, Early sakebreweries that I visited,
(40:15):
Takashima Shuzo is one.
Um, and then also, um, like Ihave maybe less exposure to sake
breweries in Japan than Shinobudoes.
But, uh, We have a cheerleaderfrom Japan that comes over once
in a while.
His name is Kuji san from NanbuBijin.
And so, like, we, like, all theAmerican sake brewers know him
(40:38):
because he comes and he's, andhe is really trying to, like,
make sake brewing outside ofJapan a thing, and, and he's,
like, very immediatelyinspirational.
So, so I think Nanbu Bijin isprobably an influence for me and
several other breweries in theUnited States.
Timothy Sullivan (40:57):
Kujisan on the podcast, and he is a force to be
reckoned with.
Yes.
John Puma (41:02):
quite a character.
Timothy Sullivan (41:03):
Yes.
John Puma (41:06):
All right, so we've got one that they specify this
is for the toji and theyunderlined it.
So Tim, this is not for you orme.
What is your favorite and orleast favorite step of the sake
making process?
Brandon Doughan (41:18):
Uh, favorite and or least favorite?
John Puma (41:20):
And or.
Brandon Doughan (41:21):
Well, I mean, I'm speaking for everybody.
Cleaning is the most frequentand least favorite part, but
it's a necessary part.
part.
Timothy Sullivan (41:29):
ha ha.
ha.
Brandon Doughan (41:30):
Um, actually my favorite part I think is Tim's
least favorite part.
And it's Koji making Am I right?
That's right.
Timothy Sullivan (41:38):
I called it sweating to the oldies.
That was, shh, yes.
we
Shinobu Kato (41:42):
favorite, uh, Well, I hope the The company's
not listening to this podcast,but, uh, we use a software
called ECOS.
That's like a software to, toget the log of everything,
because we have to report howmany alcohol we produced, and
(42:03):
then, you know, so there's likea background, uh, information
management.
And then after you do all thephysical labors of fun stuff,
You have to key in everything,like, okay, how many koji you
made, how many, you know, kojispores you used, and then all
those things, and then that's,everybody's like, okay, oh, I
still have to log in everythingafter the long day of the labor.
(42:26):
Yeah.
Brandon Doughan (42:26):
And it's a program made initially for beer.
Shinobu Kato (42:29):
yeah, yeah.
Brandon Doughan (42:30):
there's no good software for sake, in the United
States at least.
John Puma (42:34):
Sounds like my day job.
Shinobu Kato (42:35):
It's
Timothy Sullivan (42:37):
that's your least favorite.
What's your favorite part ofsake brewing, Shinobu?
Shinobu Kato (42:42):
I don't know, lunch?
We, we,
Brandon Doughan (42:44):
we
Shinobu Kato (42:46):
Yeah, we, we cook lunch every day together.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, like all thebrewers and then some bartenders
who's there, we cook lunch alltogether every day.
And, uh, yeah, yeah, sometimeswe make fancy lunch too, you
know.
Yeah, on Friday, Joni goes tothe farmer's market on the way
and then gets some nicevegetables and we make fancy
(43:08):
lunch.
So, Maybe you should come by anddo the podcast on Friday.
Brandon Doughan (43:12):
have a question.
Timothy Sullivan (43:15):
I'll bring some vegetables.
Okay, moving on.
Um, let's go for anotherquestion.
Now this is a little bit more ofa technical question, uh, but I
think it's still reallyinteresting.
Can you compare New York City'swater profile to a specific
region in Japan that might besimilar?
And, uh, how might that be withhardness, softness, et cetera?
(43:37):
What are your thoughts on thewater,
John Puma (43:39):
That's a
Brandon Doughan (43:39):
mean, it's,
Shinobu Kato (43:40):
Hiroshima?
so?
Brandon Doughan (43:41):
oh, you think so?
Because, because the hardnessnumber for new York is 24?
So, okay, Hiroshima, all right.
Hiroshima is so close to, to,um, like the Miracle Water, like
it's so close to Kobe,
Shinobu Kato (43:56):
so that's but it's super soft.
Okay, so there's a between thoseareas, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (44:02):
okay.
The Tojis conferring amongstamongst themselves.
Shinobu Kato (44:06):
Yeah, but definitely not nada.
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan (44:10):
can, you translate those numbers for the
rest of us now?
Brandon Doughan (44:12):
well, okay.
So, so I'll, I can, I can mostlyspeak about New York in, in, and
the water.
Our water is on the soft side,so there's a hardness number.
It's 24.
It's a, it's a medium softnumber.
Um.
And I'm not, I won't speak toJapan.
You, you, you two probablycouldn't speak better to the
water regions of Japan, but likeI, my, my understanding is like
(44:33):
northern Japan, it tends to besofter.
Is that
John Puma (44:37):
That's what I've heard
Timothy Sullivan (44:41):
other last questions there, John?
Um, so,
John Puma (44:44):
Um, well, we've got a So this one's a little Well, I'm
just gonna I don't know if it'smorbid or not.
Brandon.
As a neighbor of and volunteerat Greenwood Cemetery.
Oh, yes.
Can you, can you tell us moreabout the Greenwood Kimoto and
how it was developed?
Was it just like you, it was aname because it was placed
nearby or were there somethingto it?
(45:05):
Did you feel particularly goththat day?
Timothy Sullivan (45:08):
spelled about way,
John Puma (45:10):
in the question.
Brandon Doughan (45:11):
I mean, I always feel about 10 percent
goth, but, but the way, the waythat you make Kimoto is you, and
particularly the way we make ithere, is we take our tubs
outside, and we have a portionof our shubo outside
John Puma (45:25):
uh huh.
Brandon Doughan (45:25):
and we have little kids stomp on it.
and get the initial mixinggoing, and
John Puma (45:29):
adults, and also adults.
How many people here havestomped on the rice outside?
All right, so we've
Timothy Sullivan (45:34):
a few
John Puma (45:36):
Not, not as many as I thought, there'd be a little
more.
Brandon Doughan (45:38):
And, and, yeah, there's not many kids here, so.
My favorite part about it is itinvolves, uh, child labor,
unpaid child labor.
in the production of alcohol,um, but, but, but what's
happening there is, is, youknow, we've just taken rice and
steamed it, so it's sterile, andwe bring it outside, so, so
there's bacteria falling on it.
(45:59):
Um, and, and that kicks off thelacto fermentation process, or
the very complicated Kimotoversion of that.
Um, and then that produces acidand makes a nice space for yeast
to grow.
So that's, that's how Kimoto is,is done.
Um, but we're in New York City,um, we've got a little bit of a,
like a pretty courtyard here.
(46:20):
Um, but it's, the rest of it'skind of a concrete jungle, it's,
it's not a lot of like, likenature here.
But very close to us.
is a very old and beautifulcemetery.
So that's gothic, I guess.
But it's very lovely to walkaround Greenwood Cemetery.
Um, I've tried to collect yeastout of the cemetery.
(46:42):
Um, it's, like, it is SouthBrooklyn's nature space.
For better or worse.
But it is, um, and so I'm likekind of paying homage to where
we are.
And that's part of the story.
John Puma (47:00):
Okay.
So we have, um, there are two,um, Two separate questions for
each of our toji today.
Um, and uh, so since, um, let'sgo Kato san, were there any,
were there any issues with theclimate when you make sake every
day?
(47:21):
Uh, because you're making sakeyear round, sometimes it's
wintertime, sometimes it'ssummertime and you're in New
York and you got to deal with,um, with adjusting for that as,
as the things go on.
Does that mess with fermentationfor you?
Do you have to make adjustmentsfor that?
Shinobu Kato (47:35):
for that?
Okay.
John Puma (47:38):
Climate in like keeping your, uh, keeping your,
your
Shinobu Kato (47:41):
I know climate is a problem as a kind of much
bigger, bigger, bigger topic.
John Puma (47:46):
but
Shinobu Kato (47:47):
I know that Climate brewery.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John Puma (47:50):
Since, since Japanese breweries just brew in the
wintertime and you're
Shinobu Kato (47:53):
I, I know
John Puma (47:54):
days a year, You know, you gotta adjust.
Shinobu Kato (47:57):
You know, as Brandon said, we don't have like
100 years of experience, sohaving more controlled
environment or climate, meaninglike climate in the building,
helps us a lot.
You know, of course,traditionally, it's been sake is
(48:19):
made in more like a naturalsetup, so you know, you cannot
control the temperature of yourtank.
It's up to the, you know, howcold or warm this winter is,
poses a lot of extra uncertaintyand invaluables for us who does
not have that.
You know, hundred years of logof how to, you know, work with a
(48:42):
different changing environment,right?
Oh, and then there are a fewthings that we can control as a
brewer, and climate, or likeclimate meaning like a more like
a, you know, the system climate,is one of the few things that we
can control.
We cannot control the microbes,but at least we can control the,
the, like a climate, right?
Temperature, humidity, whateverwe have in the tank and in the
(49:06):
space.
So, that's a big benefit for,like, modern brewers.
John Puma (49:11):
uh, I, I, brandon, has, anything about your brewing
process changed since BrooklynKura's partnership with
Hakkaisan?
Uh,
Brandon Doughan (49:22):
yes.
Um, A, we've gone from a 3, 000square foot space to a 20, 000
square foot space.
Um, and, and, and with a lotmore machines, so it's, it's
been a challenge this, this lastyear to wrap our heads around,
um, using all this newequipment, getting it up and
running.
We worked with really greatcontractors to build our space,
(49:46):
but none of them have ever builta sake brewery before.
John Puma (49:50):
ha ha
Brandon Doughan (49:50):
So we've had to like, you know, kind of learn a
lot of new things.
And then the partnership withHakaisan is we're fortunate to
have some very technicalKuribito come and help us get to
this new scale.
And it's really been acollaboration.
So I've, I've, I've like, I'vebeen very open to changing how
(50:12):
I've been making sake.
Um, particularly going from 500kilograms, like the biggest
batches we made previously, to2, 000 kilograms.
and I think there's also achange in the sake brewing on
scale.
So, we were mentioning earlierthat it's really hard to make a
drinkable sake at home.
(50:33):
Like, I, I know that probably alot of people listening to this
podcast have tried, it's, it's,it's tough, so it's not, you're
not, like, doing a bad job, it'sjust really, really hard.
Um, so, so as you get up tolarger scales, a lot of things
take care of themselves.
At 2, 000 kilograms, thetemperature is more moderate,
it's a large thermal mass, soit's easier to control the
(50:55):
temperature in the long range.
and so, I already forgot yourquestion, but like, but the way
our sake has changed is, is, Ithink, I really like how Timothy
put it at once, it's, it's,It's, our newer versions of the
same sake we're brewing are asofter expression.
I think that's true.
I think it's more rounded.
It's, it's just, it's just thescale of it now.
(51:19):
and additionally, we, we can, weused to just lay the rice out,
uh, like, like, like Shinobu,you were doing now, and, and,
and that's rough in August tocool it down to get it to sake
brewing temperatures.
but, but now we, we have the,We're very fortunate to have
machines that cool the rice downvery quickly.
So we, so, so, our seasonalbrewing is more normalized now,
(51:41):
so we're, we're, we're trying tolike, uh, uh, figure that out to
be consistent brewers all yearround.
Timothy Sullivan (51:49):
Yeah.
That's
Shinobu Kato (51:50):
when we were doing the expansion, that yeah,
there's a lot of small problems,but once you're bigger, those
things will go away.
And then actually, they wentaway for us, too.
Brandon Doughan (52:02):
great,
Shinobu Kato (52:02):
Yeah, so I fully agree with what you told me.
Yeah,
John Puma (52:06):
Well, Shinobu, I remember when you were in your
first space, you had your, your,your, like, little, like, uh,
koji closet it was like, it wasprobably smaller than the table
we're sitting at right now.
It was very like a, like a, likea small, like a, like a train
set area.
And, uh, it was like, wow,you're making koji in that?
And you're like, yes, I am.
Timothy Sullivan (52:24):
ha ha
Brandon Doughan (52:25):
And
John Puma (52:26):
And it's delicious.
Brandon Doughan (52:27):
this
Timothy Sullivan (52:29):
this has been absolutely fantastic.
John, I don't know about you,but I cannot think of a better
way to spend sake day than withBrandon and Shinobu and this
wonderful audience we have herewith us today.
Brandon Doughan (52:43):
come and record with us.
Shinobu Kato (52:45):
so fantastic
Timothy Sullivan (52:46):
all.
Shinobu Kato (52:50):
time
John Puma (52:50):
still wrapping my head around the audience part.
Timothy Sullivan (52:52):
Yes, it's fantastic.
John Puma (52:55):
this way towards you guys.
Timothy Sullivan (52:57):
It's been so fantastic to have you guys,
Brandon, Shinobu.
We want to thank you so much formaking the time on Sake day to
come and record with us.
It's so great to get yourinsight, to taste your sake with
you, so special.
And I just can't thank youenough for being with us today,
so thank you very
Brandon Doughan (53:15):
Oh, thanks for having us,
Shinobu Kato (53:16):
so very much.
Thanks for having us.
Some really insightful and
Timothy Sullivan (53:26):
All right.
now now
John Puma (53:29):
you everybody for providing some really insightful
and interesting PG 13 questions.
We
Timothy Sullivan (53:35):
Yes, you're, you're, this, this crowd is
going to put us out of businesswith our sake questions here.
John Puma (53:40):
we We're just gonna steal their ideas and
incorporate them in the show.
Timothy Sullivan (53:43):
Yes, well, it was so wonderful to taste with
both of you, with our beautifulaudience.
John, always a pleasure.
And I just want to thank ourlisteners so much today for
tuning in.
You'll be listening to thisafter the fact, after Sake Day,
but I hope through the audienceparticipation and through our
wonderful toji's here that yougot a sense of how much we
enjoyed Sake Day here atBrooklyn Kura and tasting these
(54:07):
two beautiful sakes.
I also want to take a moment andsay hello and thank you to our
patrons.
Thank you so much for supportingus and for making Sake
Revolution possible.
If you'd like to learn moreabout supporting our podcast,
please visitPatreon.com/sakerevolution.
John Puma (54:24):
There is also a link at SakeRevolution.
com to visit our Patreon.
But more importantly, there is alink to our show notes in there.
Tim, make sure that everyepisode has a really, really
nice transcript of every singleepisode.
Um, I put a little work intothat.
Tim puts a lot of work intothat, so make sure that you
check it out because it'sawesome.
(54:45):
And, uh, we also talk aboutthis.
We also have all the informationand photos of the sakes that we
taste every time we do this.
And on that note, please raiseyour glass, remember to keep
drinking sake, and Kanpai!
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