June 5, 2025 • 31 mins
Not all recruiters are equal — and hiring the wrong one could cost you time, money, and top talent.
In this episode, Josh Matthews explains exactly how to vet a recruiter, what red flags to avoid, and how speed and quality can work together to deliver better hires. Learn why specialization, transparency, and relationship-building are non-negotiable if you want to build a high-performing Salesforce team.
Listen in and upgrade your hiring strategy.
#Recruiting #SalesforceHiring #Leadership #BusinessStrategy #HiringTips
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Matthews (00:00):
Yeah, it's about speed, not quality, right, it's
about trying to secure and lockdown candidates before anyone
else calls them.
And so, if you think about thisthis is my favorite example I
want you to imagine it's taxseason and you've got to get
your taxes done and you sendyour taxes to five CPAs and then
(00:20):
you're just going to actuallypay the only person who finished
first, not best, not highestquality, they didn't save you
the most money in taxes.
It's just a race.
You know it's silly, youwouldn't do that.
Welcome to Salesforce HiringEdge, the show for leaders who
want to hire smarter and scalefaster with Salesforce.
Josh LeQuire (00:39):
Whether you're building a team or bringing in a
consulting partner.
We're breaking down whatactually works in the real world
.
Josh Matthews (00:45):
All right, let's get into it.
Josh LeQuire (00:49):
This episode is brought to you by
thesalesforcerecruitercom.
Josh Matthews (00:52):
Well, today's kind of a neat episode because
Josh LaQuire is actually goingto be interviewing me.
I haven't been interviewed in areally long time, so I'm
excited about this topic.
Why don't you share witheverybody what we're going to?
Josh LeQuire (01:04):
cover today.
Sure Thanks, Josh.
I want to cover the topic abouthow to vet a good recruiter.
Let's start with the positives.
When a business leader isevaluating a recruiter, what are
some immediate green lights orpositive signs they should look
for?
Josh Matthews (01:17):
Great question.
Experience counts.
I mean you want to hire arecruiter like you're hiring
someone for your team right, andso they really should have some
level of depth of experiencespecifically in your field.
There are so many differenttypes of recruiters.
There are specializedrecruiters, there are generalist
recruiters.
Some people recruit foraccountants and office staff and
(01:38):
technologists.
Other people just focus ontechnology.
There's still generalists.
But if you've got a verycritical, very specific role in
mind or a team that you'retrying to build, I would just
pick whoever is a specialist.
I saw someone yesterday who hadreferred me she's a specialist
in NetSuite.
That's all she does all daylong, and so when you've got
(01:58):
that depth of experience or thatspecialty focus, you're
probably going to have one abetter reputation in the
ecosystem.
You're going to be moreconnected to people.
Let's say somebody talks to 500people a year or 1,000 people a
year.
You would want them to betalking to the 500 or 1,000
people that do what you do, not50 of the 500 do the role that
(02:22):
you're trying to hire for.
So that's where I would start.
Josh LeQuire (02:25):
Maybe take that a step further.
I'm really curious, beyond justsaying a recruiter would
specialize in Salesforce, howcan a leader verify a
recruiter's actual depth ofknowledge in the Salesforce
ecosystem, the different roles,products, market demands?
Josh Matthews (02:42):
Yeah, I would say this is true for any ecosystem,
not just Salesforce.
Just first jump on theirLinkedIn, see how long they've
been doing it.
I mean everything that you wantto know about someone.
If they're a recruiter, they'reon LinkedIn.
For one, it's going to bepretty apparent how much
influence they have in themarketplace based on followers,
(03:03):
how active they are.
Are they promoting thoughtleadership?
You don't have to be an old guylike me to be a great recruiter.
By the way, I'd say mostrecruiters are in their 20s and
30s and some of them are reallyfantastic.
So if they don't have 20,000followers, it's okay.
You just want to see thatthey're involved.
(03:24):
Do they have a history ofsuccess in their own firms?
I mean, we look at job hoppersall the time.
I mean, if you're talking to arecruiter and they've got 10
years of experience, but it's at10 different companies, chances
are they're not that great,right?
I mean, if they were great,they would have stayed somewhere
and grown in that organization.
So you just evaluate in a verycursory way your recruiter, the
(03:49):
same way that you would beevaluating a candidate to come
on board.
You don't have to be ascritical, you don't have to have
as many conversations, but youneed to approach it with.
I just want to make sure thatthis person is in the right
space and other people like them.
There's been some sort ofsuccess.
A little bit of searching onsocial media will tell you that,
(04:12):
reviews will tell you that, andoftentimes I think it's really
important to state whencompanies are looking for a
recruiter, they often don't knowwho to go to from an individual
standpoint.
They're thinking about thecompanies, right.
So what company should I use?
And especially with largercompanies, you're going to get
this massive range of skill set.
(04:34):
If you're trying to hire arealtor and you go to REMAX,
well, some people have one monthof real estate experience and
other people have 25 years ofsuccessful, progressive
knowledge and experience in yourspecific neighborhood, in your
specific town.
I mean, go to them.
They don't cost more.
That makes a lot of sense.
Josh LeQuire (04:53):
Josh, now I do want to dive a little bit.
You had mentioned fees a minuteago, and this is an interesting
topic in my opinion.
What kind of transparencyshould a leader expect working
with a recruiter regardingprocess sourcing fee structures?
Josh Matthews (05:06):
Yeah, well, that's a lot.
So I'll just start with feestructures.
I think it's very helpful if arecruiter, if you ask them what
are the fees, one, I wouldn'task that before you've built
some sort of rapport with them.
This is just like they'reinterviewing you too, and I say
no to companies, maybe not everysingle week, but certainly
(05:28):
every month.
If they just call up and saywhat are your fees?
Guess what?
I am not going to beat thelowest bidder.
There's no way I'm going tobeat the lowest bidder.
I'm going to be greater value,yeah, of course.
So you want to figure outwhat's going on there and I
think when push comes to shove,you should just tell them.
(05:48):
A good recruiter should justtell you this is my fee
structure and for full-timehires it's generally a
percentage of someone's basesalary.
You also want to understand howdo they mark up contractors?
We, generally we don't do apercentage.
Back in the old days when I waswith a Fortune 500, we'd do a
(06:08):
percentage and I was gettingsome of the highest percentages.
You could get like 83% markup.
I think the market's changedand so I just go with a flat
number, a flat dollar amount perhour on someone, so it's more
transparent and at the end ofthe day, you really want, I
think, most of your money to begoing to the candidate.
When you spend more on acandidate, you generally get a
(06:30):
higher value candidate who cando more and cause less headaches
and cause less problems.
So at the low level there'salways that minimum that someone
wants to make.
But when you get to the higherlevel more expensive people like
architects and stuff I just capthe fee at a certain amount per
hour and I think companies thatdo that are being responsible
to their customers.
(06:50):
They're giving them a betterchance.
Josh LeQuire (06:53):
Makes sense right?
I would think you know, beingin my shoes, working with you,
josh, knowing what to expect andwhat to pay is paramount.
I don't necessarily care aboutwhat margin you're making.
I care about what my costs aregoing to be.
Josh Matthews (07:05):
to be very brutally honest with you, and
the quality of the candidatethat you're going to get, of
course, yeah, so I think that'sa.
I would start there withpricing, you know.
Just here's the other thingconversion fees.
So there's something out therecalled contract to hire.
I'm not a huge fan of it, butit's a thing, it's a real thing,
and when it comes to contractto hire, usually someone's
(07:26):
bringing on a contractor andthen, over time, the longer are
companies out there that won'tdo that competitors of mine even
where nope, that's them as acontractor, and if you want them
(07:49):
, you're going to pay the fullfee.
I think that there should be alittle bit of a give, a little
bit of uh, hey, you know, costreduction for having already
earned X amount.
Josh LeQuire (08:00):
On a on the placement of a candidate, yeah,
Well, I'm curious, uh, you know,going a step further how does a
truly effective recruiter goabout understanding the specific
needs and, I would sayimportantly, the culture of your
client's company, rather thanjust matching keywords on a
resume?
Josh Matthews (08:19):
Yeah, I mean you've got to start with a
relationship right, andrelationships take time and
that's time together.
So the more time you spend withsomeone everybody knows this
the more time you spend withsomeone and then the more
intense those experiences are,the deeper the bonds with those
people go.
There's taking the job order,but then it really requires
(08:44):
having that direct communication, ideally with the hiring
manager.
The fewer steps or people inbetween the headhunter or the
recruiter and the actual personthat they're going to be placing
the person with theprofessional with, the more
you're going to understand theirpersonality, the more you're
going to understand theirpersonality right, the more
you're going to understandexactly what their needs are.
(09:05):
Now, that's a big, nice sort oflong way of saying just get to
know somebody.
But in the short term, how doyou do that?
Well, you've got to ask reallygood questions.
I mean, you asked about culture.
Culture gets defined in likefive to 10 different ways.
I like to think of it as commonbehaviors within a company.
Work culture isn't taco Tuesdaylunches or summer Fridays,
(09:29):
you're off at two.
That's not culture, those arebenefits, those are cool little
things.
Culture is actually and we didthis with your, you'll recall.
This is like six years ago atthe Coterie.
We did a big evaluation.
We used profiles to reallydetermine what are the
attributes, the commonattributes, of the people who
are most successful.
(09:50):
Now if you really want to likego hardcore and figure out what
your culture is, then you can dopsychometric testing of top
team members and then evaluatecandidates against that.
I definitely recommend it.
It takes a little bit longer,it adds a little bit of cost,
but it's a great way to do it.
Now, if you're not going to dothat and that's fine, you don't
have to, most people don't thenwhat you have to do is just find
(10:12):
out, tell me about your topperformers.
What are they like?
What do they do?
And sometimes they justdescribe it like hey, look,
they're really funny.
Everyone here is really funny.
They're pretty relaxed, they'rehardworking, but they don't
kill themselves at it.
Other companies are going to saylike, hey, we put in the time.
I know people have families,but we've got important critical
(10:34):
work we're doing.
If you're leaving at five,you're leaving way too early.
You don't want to be the newperson who's walking out at five
o'clock and you turn aroundthere's 40 people still sitting
at their desk.
I know we're all remote now soit doesn't really work, but
still, you don't want to be thefirst person to be away on the
Slack channel.
I guess You're right.
You just figure out what arethose things.
(10:54):
Are they hardworking?
Are they patient?
Are they good listeners?
Are they drivers?
Do they push hard?
Are they yes, people just nodand get it done?
Are they independent?
Do people operate independently?
Are you going to be reallymanaging them?
Are you going to be getting allup in their jazz, josh?
How much are you going toactually be involved with their
(11:17):
day-to-day?
Or do you need someone who islike, just leave it to me, I'll
give you a report on Thursday,we can talk for 10 minutes on
Friday and then I'm going tokeep going, and so you just have
to ask questions around thatfrom a culture standpoint.
Josh LeQuire (11:30):
You hit on a lot of really interesting points
there, josh, and I think whatmade you very attractive to me
and my partners at my last jobas a recruiter was exactly that
you weren't just necessarilyfilling an order right.
You were really trying tounderstand us, who we were, how
we operated.
I think you did a good jobdiscerning that, translating
(11:50):
that into a workable strategy tohelp us find great candidates,
and it worked out well Any goodrecruiter is going to do that.
Josh Matthews (11:59):
I think it's really important to note.
I mean this is because you'reasking me questions about what
people can do and I think it'sreally important to share, kind
of like we talked about clientengagement on the episode,
similar episode, but more abouthow do you hire the right
consulting firm that clientengagement piece is no different
when it comes to recruiting,that manager access is important
(12:22):
.
Consulting firm that clientengagement piece is no different
when it comes to recruiting.
That manager access isimportant.
And when you're selecting agood recruiter, you want someone
who's not going to be afraid ornervous to have conversations
with senior leadership or topush back.
I think, as a customer of arecruiting firm, the clients
really should number one picksomeone who's great, Just pick
someone who's really good, Startthere and then carve out time
(12:48):
for that person, Especially ifyou're just going to hire one
person whatever one person ayear, it's not a big deal.
If you're trying to really builda team, you should really get
to know the recruiter, Becauseif you're getting to know them,
they're getting to know you andif they're getting to know you,
they're going to be able to do away better job of protecting
your time.
They're not going to send youcandidates that aren't going to
work out.
They're going to send peoplethat are going to join your
(13:10):
company and last for a reallylong time.
I think, too, it's reallyimportant to.
If you can work with a singlerecruiter, you can work with a
lot of recruiters.
If you don't trust therecruiters that you're working
with, Does that make sense?
Josh LeQuire (13:25):
It does.
It's almost like you're kind ofputting them in a competitive
situation.
And I'm curious, Josh, and Idon't mean to take you off track
here, but we have multiplerecruiters working for you in a
competitive situation.
Doesn't that elicit differentbehavior from the recruiters
themselves and what they'regoing to do for you?
Josh Matthews (13:41):
Yeah, it's about speed, not quality.
Right, it's about trying tosecure and lock down candidates
before anyone else calls them.
And so if you think about this,this is my favorite example.
I want you to imagine it's taxseason and you've got to get
your taxes done and you sendyour taxes to five CPAs and then
(14:01):
you're just going to actuallypay.
The only person who finishedfirst, not best, not highest
quality, they didn't save youthe most money in taxes.
It's just a race.
You know it's silly.
We don't do that.
Josh LeQuire (14:14):
I think there's, you know, as a hiring manager,
when you're working with yourrecruiter.
Maybe a good tip here is toreally think about, you know,
the spectrum of fast, cheap andgood.
Right, you know, pick two, theway we like to say in our
business Do you want it fast, doyou want it good?
You know and I think itprobably applies to your
(14:34):
business as much as it does mineyou have to really kind of
balance that spectrum and figureout what the optimal you know
kind of risk equation is for youtotally, and like, dude, we are
not like, if you're not inhealth group called up and said,
josh, we need 30 developers.
Josh Matthews (14:46):
You know, by the end of june, like I'm not, I'm
not your guy, like it's notgoing to happen, like I'm it's
just not, maybe sunday.
But we're not big enough to dothat and it would probably
require us to skirt some of thethings that we do, like video
interviewing, versus just quickphone calls and getting them in
the loop.
That kind of thing, yeah.
Josh LeQuire (15:04):
Makes a lot of sense.
Josh, now I'm really curious.
I'd love to flip to the otherside.
What are some significant redflags that a hiring manager
might make a hiring managerpause or even walk away when
they're first engaging with arecruiter?
Josh Matthews (15:18):
I mean just, can they gain rapport with you?
If someone's talking in arobotic way?
If they're communicating, it'sjust like any sales thing.
If the recruiter can't buildrapport with you, it's unlikely
that they're going to bebuilding rapport with the top
candidates that you like, right?
Josh LeQuire (15:35):
Very good point.
Josh Matthews (15:36):
Now the good news is most recruiters I think most
recruiters maybe not all, maybenot even half, but at a certain
level, like if they've beendoing it for a few years then
they're probably going to bepretty good at developing
rapport, and that's a reallygood thing, because a recruiter
who can build rapport with youcan build rapport with the
candidates.
(15:56):
If they can build rapport withthe candidates, the candidates
will open up to them.
If the candidates open up tothem, they will know more about
them and be able to help guideyou whether or not it's a good
decision to bring someone on oreven bring them on.
However, you're going to haveto keep this person really busy.
They get bored fast, like.
(16:17):
That kind of insight can bevery helpful versus waiting
three or four months and goingwhat happened.
I thought this person wasawesome and the whole time that
candidate's not communicatingwhat they need.
But the recruiter could havesaid keep this person busy.
You know, give them a lot ofwork, they get bored fast.
Josh LeQuire (16:34):
I think you're you're touching on the human
side of all this.
Right, we tend to or I tend tomake the mistake sometimes I
won't speak for everybody that Ilook at these things as jobs or
projects or tasks, butforgetting that, hey, this is a
human resource and we need tothink about the relationship and
everything around the job andthe task.
And that's uh, I think I I gotto be honest with you, with my
(16:56):
clients, with my suppliers, withmy business people, I, people
who have hired me, I don't know,not everybody out there kind of
thinks at that level ofrelationship.
So these are really good pearlsof wisdom.
I have some other questions I'dlike to ask.
I think the next one that comesto mind is my experience, and
(17:17):
I'm sure a lot of folkslistening to the show have
experienced this.
We hear quite a bit aboutrecruiters who spam companies
with irrelevant resumes, and howcan our listeners identify
recruiters more focused onquality over quantity, and why
is that approach spammingresumes detrimental?
Josh Matthews (17:32):
Well, it actually works for one.
It actually works.
It doesn't work for my business, but it does work.
The problem with the irrelevantresumes is it's just cheap
content.
Does that make sense?
I have a different approach.
We put a lot of time intocreating these videos or writing
blogs or going to conferences.
If you're out there and gettinginvolved, then you can send
things more than just a bunch ofresumes.
(17:54):
But the idea is to just staytop of mind, right?
It's not that this NETdeveloper that someone sent you
from some company, probably inIndia, wants to pitch you.
It's that like, oh, that's arecruiter and I need a recruiter
, and click respond hey, I don'tneed that, but I do need this.
It's just top of mind.
So it does work.
But it's kind of annoying.
(18:15):
Josh, I think that this part'sreally important.
Very few people go to collegeto be headhunters.
I think there's one program inthe country in college.
No one wakes up and like Ican't, I'm going to grow up and
I'm going to, you know, work atan agency and and be a
headhunter or be a recruiter fora tech technical staffing.
That's no one's dream, okay,but what it does attract are all
(18:37):
the people who are pretty goodwith people, okay with sales,
but don't necessarily reallywant to be full-blown
salespeople, right, and they'rejust interested in people more
than things.
It attracts a lot of the Idon't know what I want to do
people.
I was an art major so of courseI'm a headhunter, right.
So, knowing that that a lot ofpeople are going to come in,
(19:00):
especially to the largecompanies, and there's churn,
there's massive churn.
I mean very few people make ita full year.
So, especially the larger thecompany that you're engaging
with, the more likely you are tosee high turnover.
And so if you call up a bigcompany like a robert half or
K-Force or Tech Systems, thoseare great companies.
They have helped thousands ofcompanies all over the world.
(19:22):
Probably tens of thousands ofmanagers build great teams, but
not everyone in that company hasdone a great job.
So when you call, it's like,hey, who is your most
experienced person whospecializes in this in my town
or in my field?
You just call the front desk.
They'll tell you say great, canyou connect me with them?
(19:42):
Or you can get referrals inyour own network.
Hey, who have you worked for orworked with?
That's been awesome and that'swhat we do.
We work on referrals all thetime.
You do, I mean everyonelistening to this show knows
what referrals are.
Go get a referral.
Call your friends, who have youguys used?
And they'll be like, ah, theywere okay.
(20:02):
If they say they're okay, itmeans they were bad.
If they say that they werepretty good, it means they were
average.
If they say they're likefreaking amazing.
Oh, my God changed our business.
That's who you want to workwith.
Josh LeQuire (20:14):
That's good advice .
Yeah, I think people willgenerally be kind.
They're not going to saysomebody was terrible unless you
know they feel comfortablesaying that, but they will say
somebody's great when they thinksomebody's great.
That's 100% true.
Yeah, that's interesting, josh.
So you kind of played intosomething else that I hear a lot
from folks I've worked withthat sometimes recruiters can be
(20:35):
a little pushy, right?
I'm really curious what yourthoughts are about pressure
tactics.
You know, how can leaders,hiring managers handle
recruiters might seem aggressiveor pushy.
Is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing?
What are some good and badthings about?
You know kind of the sales sideof recruiting and pushing
candidates and that kind ofstuff.
Josh Matthews (20:54):
No one has ever asked me that before.
That is a really good question.
Yeah, any quality maximized toomuch becomes a liability.
The quality of being quoteunquote pushy is a good thing.
I'm like greed for lack of abetter word is good, right.
So, gordon Gekko, over here.
The reality is you want a levelof that pushiness.
(21:17):
The top candidates are out ofreach.
The top candidates can't becontacted.
The top candidates don't careabout your stupid LinkedIn
message it's the 30th, they'vegot that week.
Or the 40th, they've got thatweek.
Or that phone number that popsup that they don't recognize.
They're never even going tolisten to your voicemail.
So if you don't have a certainlevel of I'll call it
(21:37):
persistence and creativity to beable to access those candidates
, then you've already lost therace.
You're not going to be able todeliver great people and by
great people I mean probably notalways, but 90% of the time
people who are currently workingand not necessarily looking.
So to access that, you have tohave that quality, but you can
(22:01):
overdo it, so it's a goodquality.
I do think that there is apoint when clients need to
listen to the recruiter whenthey're being pushy.
I might say to you, josh, Isubmitted this candidate to you
24 hours ago.
It's not a resume to review.
I've reviewed it.
I pre-screened them.
(22:22):
I did a 45-minute hour-longinterview with them.
You've got all the notes youneed to schedule time.
You haven't given me timesavailable.
This person's hot.
They're interviewing elsewhere.
By the way, they're talking toDeloitte.
Deloitte will drop $30,000 onday one just to get him to go
over.
You don't have that budget.
All you have is speed and I'mnot seeing it so pretty pleased
(22:44):
with sugar on top.
What is your next available 45minute time slot that you can
talk to this person?
right, you should listen to thatthat's pushy, but that's to
your benefit.
Josh LeQuire (22:55):
It is right.
I think the message here isspeed does matter when you're
vetting a good candidate and youneed to trust that the
recruiter you hired is actuallydoing these things for you, not
against you, right, Like youhave to have that level of.
I hired the right expert to dothis job and this expert is
telling me to move fast and Ineed to move fast, yeah.
Josh Matthews (23:17):
I call it tempo right.
Have a good tempo, ideally fromthe time you talk to someone to
the time you're done with yourinterview process.
Now, this is not all companiesright.
We know Salesforce takes a longtime.
We know Netflix has eightinterviews.
We know that the more seniorthe role, the longer that will
go, typically, and it could betwo months from start to finish.
(23:39):
But you definitely want someone.
I think once they're in theloop at least in our industry
for technical roles andfunctional roles you would
ideally want to get someone fromtalking to them and then
through your process, yourtechnical interview, your
cultural conversations or teammember meetings, whatever else
(23:59):
you've got.
That's part of your process.
You want to get them throughthat process inside of two weeks
.
Josh LeQuire (24:05):
Interesting, I've never heard that before.
Josh Matthews (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's just they're looking.
I mean, if you're talking it'sdifferent If someone's like well
, here's something to consider.
I want you to imagine that youneed some unicorn.
Your recruiter finds thatunicorn for you.
Take some three weeks.
They find that unicorn for you.
They present that candidate toyou.
What's going to happen?
(24:27):
As soon as that passivecandidate who has a job that
they like, who's alreadycompensated very well, who
wasn't even thinking aboutleaving their company but will
for the right offer and for theright opportunity, that person's
brain is now going.
Huh, these people are treatingme really nicely.
They're talking big numbers.
I wonder what else is out there.
Passive candidates only staypassive for a couple weeks.
(24:50):
As soon as you get them, as soonas they agree to interview with
you.
That's not a passive candidateanymore and now the world's
their oyster.
Josh LeQuire (24:59):
That makes a lot of sense, josh, and that,
honestly, is great perspectivefor me.
Selfishly, I'm going to keepthat in mind for my next hire,
but I think that's good advicefor all the folks listening to
this show.
I think we kind of tend tothink like, oh, we're in the
driver's seat, we're hiringsomebody, we're throwing the
paychecks out, they can wait onus.
(25:20):
But that's not the rightmentality.
I think as a hiring manager, asan employer, that's a dangerous
assumption.
Josh Matthews (25:27):
Here's a tip for everyone out there, regardless
of who you're hiring, who you'regoing through, who you're
working with, whatever, when youknow that you need to hire
someone, it's because you'reunderstaffed.
I mean, there's a handful ofpeople that are like, oh, we've
got this project and we'reresource planning and it's going
to come up.
But no, let's face it, ifyou're listening to this show,
(25:49):
chances are at some point inyour life you've been like I'm
overwhelmed, my team'soverwhelmed, the work's not
getting done.
Now you're in a horribleposition because you didn't
resource plan, or maybe someonequit right and you're just kind
of left holding the bag, andthat's not a good feeling.
That doesn't feel good at all.
So what happens is you're sobusy now that you don't have
(26:09):
time for recruiting, but youronly way out of this pit is to
have interviews and hire someone.
So carve out time.
Just time block.
If you're working with arecruiter, you say hey, josh,
how many interviews do youexpect?
I'll likely have with initialinterviews next week.
You might say three, andthey'll each need to be 45
(26:30):
minutes.
Can you give me two time blocksof two hours so I can work with
that?
And then you go into yourcalendar and you hit block and
then no one can book a meeting.
And you're not booking ameeting.
And guess what If there's nomeeting at that time?
That's okay, you're going toget other work done, but it's at
least protected.
Josh LeQuire (26:47):
These sound like trivial things, but they're not
right.
Carving out time is theultimate roadblock to getting
any of the remaining cascadingnine or 10 events that need to
occur, so that's incredibly goodadvice, Josh.
Josh Matthews (27:00):
Client engagement .
It starts with your calendar.
Make the time.
Josh LeQuire (27:04):
Thank you, Ryan.
What are two or three of themost critical questions they
should ask during the initialvetting call or vetting process?
Josh Matthews (27:13):
Yeah, I mean again, I think we kind of
covered some of it at thebeginning how long have you done
this?
Can you tell me about a coupleof recent placements and what's
your process?
If the process doesn't includevideo interviewing, then you're
dealing with a different levelof recruiter.
So do you do video interviewing?
Do you give me a write-up?
(27:34):
Can you send me an example of aprofile that you've put
together for someone?
So, as an example, when I'msubmitting a candidate, I take
all of my notes from probablytwo conversations and I put that
together so that they can getthe insights.
A lot of people will put innotes and all they're doing are
(27:54):
highlights from the resume.
Highlights from the resume.
Right?
Oh, this person has five yearsexperience and they have a
degree in this and they havethese certifications and they
have two years as a solutionarchitect.
Okay, I could see that in fiveseconds on the resume.
What I want to know is whenthings go wrong, what do they do
(28:16):
?
What's the one thing thatthey're actually really working
on?
What's the third-party evidence?
What would their managers agreeon consistently?
If there's one thing that theirfamily believes would improve
their life the most, what wouldbe that thing?
Man.
You'll hear all sorts of stuff.
My temper, you'll hear.
(28:36):
I could lose weight, I couldcarve out more time for my
family, I could be more patient.
You're going to learn a lotabout someone and it's the
recruiter's job to pull that out, because you, as a hiring
manager, you're not aprofessional interviewer.
You probably never were.
If you've got a hundredinterviews under your belt,
congratulations.
You've got three months ofjunior recruiting experience.
(28:59):
That's nothing.
Josh LeQuire (29:00):
And you and I talked about this once.
I remember you'd ask me howmany interviews have you done,
josh, and I thought maybe 80 or100.
And then I asked you and yousaid oh, I think maybe 15,000 or
20,000.
Josh Matthews (29:10):
And it kind of blew my mind.
No, it wasn't 20, but yeah,yeah, something like that, yeah,
yeah.
And you just think about, Ithink about, like Malcolm
Gladwell's, you know, the 10,000hours of expertise.
So what do you need there?
Well, you need, that's, fivesolid years.
Someone hasn't done it for fiveyears.
They're going to be prettyjunior.
It doesn't mean, don't givethem a shot.
(29:30):
They might be really good, butthey should cut their teeth on
someone other than you.
Makes sense.
Josh LeQuire (29:36):
What is the ultimate advice you could give
to our audience when they'relooking for a recruiter who
would genuinely drive theirbusiness forward by finding the
right talent?
What would that be?
What's that ultimate advice?
Josh Matthews (29:50):
That's such a hard question.
I would invest in your owninterviewing ability.
I mean, you can lean on arecruiter, you can lean on me,
I'll be your friend.
But if the process sort ofstops there, the quality of the
process stops there, I don'tknow.
(30:11):
I don't know if your success isgonna be that great.
Get really good at doing yourpart.
You can pick a good recruiterand work with them.
They're gonna take care of you.
But you've got to take care ofall of those conversations
inside.
Have a process.
What kinds of questions are youasking?
How do you interpret thoseanswers?
Get good at interviewing.
Watch some YouTube videos,practice, train it.
(30:32):
Come in with a plan and thencheck your biases.
Or check your bias.
If I'm in love with thiscandidate, I need to find out
why I'm not.
You know, I got to find somedirt on them.
If I don't like this person, Igot to find a reason why you
know I really like them.
Josh LeQuire (30:48):
Thank you, this has been wonderful.
I really appreciate everythingyou've shared here.
It's been insightful for meespecially, and I plan on taking
this, integrating this, into myown endeavors Right on man.
Josh Matthews (31:00):
If you're serious about leveling up your
Salesforce game, hit upccurrentscom for pro-level
implementations, services andapplication development, and if
you're hiring or looking,thesalesforcerecruitercom.
It's where connections are made.
Yeah, it's about speed, not quality, right, it's
about trying to secure and lockdown candidates before anyone
else calls them.
And so, if you think about thisthis is my favorite example I
want you to imagine it's taxseason and you've got to get
your taxes done and you sendyour taxes to five CPAs and then
(00:20):
you're just going to actuallypay the only person who finished
first, not best, not highestquality, they didn't save you
the most money in taxes.
It's just a race.
You know it's silly, youwouldn't do that.
Welcome to Salesforce HiringEdge, the show for leaders who
want to hire smarter and scalefaster with Salesforce.
Josh LeQuire (00:39):
Whether you're building a team or bringing in a
consulting partner.
We're breaking down whatactually works in the real world
.
Josh Matthews (00:45):
All right, let's get into it.
Josh LeQuire (00:49):
This episode is brought to you by
thesalesforcerecruitercom.
Josh Matthews (00:52):
Well, today's kind of a neat episode because
Josh LaQuire is actually goingto be interviewing me.
I haven't been interviewed in areally long time, so I'm
excited about this topic.
Why don't you share witheverybody what we're going to?
Josh LeQuire (01:04):
cover today.
Sure Thanks, Josh.
I want to cover the topic abouthow to vet a good recruiter.
Let's start with the positives.
When a business leader isevaluating a recruiter, what are
some immediate green lights orpositive signs they should look
for?
Josh Matthews (01:17):
Great question.
Experience counts.
I mean you want to hire arecruiter like you're hiring
someone for your team right, andso they really should have some
level of depth of experiencespecifically in your field.
There are so many differenttypes of recruiters.
There are specializedrecruiters, there are generalist
recruiters.
Some people recruit foraccountants and office staff and
(01:38):
technologists.
Other people just focus ontechnology.
There's still generalists.
But if you've got a verycritical, very specific role in
mind or a team that you'retrying to build, I would just
pick whoever is a specialist.
I saw someone yesterday who hadreferred me she's a specialist
in NetSuite.
That's all she does all daylong, and so when you've got
(01:58):
that depth of experience or thatspecialty focus, you're
probably going to have one abetter reputation in the
ecosystem.
You're going to be moreconnected to people.
Let's say somebody talks to 500people a year or 1,000 people a
year.
You would want them to betalking to the 500 or 1,000
people that do what you do, not50 of the 500 do the role that
(02:22):
you're trying to hire for.
So that's where I would start.
Josh LeQuire (02:25):
Maybe take that a step further.
I'm really curious, beyond justsaying a recruiter would
specialize in Salesforce, howcan a leader verify a
recruiter's actual depth ofknowledge in the Salesforce
ecosystem, the different roles,products, market demands?
Josh Matthews (02:42):
Yeah, I would say this is true for any ecosystem,
not just Salesforce.
Just first jump on theirLinkedIn, see how long they've
been doing it.
I mean everything that you wantto know about someone.
If they're a recruiter, they'reon LinkedIn.
For one, it's going to bepretty apparent how much
influence they have in themarketplace based on followers,
(03:03):
how active they are.
Are they promoting thoughtleadership?
You don't have to be an old guylike me to be a great recruiter.
By the way, I'd say mostrecruiters are in their 20s and
30s and some of them are reallyfantastic.
So if they don't have 20,000followers, it's okay.
You just want to see thatthey're involved.
(03:24):
Do they have a history ofsuccess in their own firms?
I mean, we look at job hoppersall the time.
I mean, if you're talking to arecruiter and they've got 10
years of experience, but it's at10 different companies, chances
are they're not that great,right?
I mean, if they were great,they would have stayed somewhere
and grown in that organization.
So you just evaluate in a verycursory way your recruiter, the
(03:49):
same way that you would beevaluating a candidate to come
on board.
You don't have to be ascritical, you don't have to have
as many conversations, but youneed to approach it with.
I just want to make sure thatthis person is in the right
space and other people like them.
There's been some sort ofsuccess.
A little bit of searching onsocial media will tell you that,
(04:12):
reviews will tell you that, andoftentimes I think it's really
important to state whencompanies are looking for a
recruiter, they often don't knowwho to go to from an individual
standpoint.
They're thinking about thecompanies, right.
So what company should I use?
And especially with largercompanies, you're going to get
this massive range of skill set.
(04:34):
If you're trying to hire arealtor and you go to REMAX,
well, some people have one monthof real estate experience and
other people have 25 years ofsuccessful, progressive
knowledge and experience in yourspecific neighborhood, in your
specific town.
I mean, go to them.
They don't cost more.
That makes a lot of sense.
Josh LeQuire (04:53):
Josh, now I do want to dive a little bit.
You had mentioned fees a minuteago, and this is an interesting
topic in my opinion.
What kind of transparencyshould a leader expect working
with a recruiter regardingprocess sourcing fee structures?
Josh Matthews (05:06):
Yeah, well, that's a lot.
So I'll just start with feestructures.
I think it's very helpful if arecruiter, if you ask them what
are the fees, one, I wouldn'task that before you've built
some sort of rapport with them.
This is just like they'reinterviewing you too, and I say
no to companies, maybe not everysingle week, but certainly
(05:28):
every month.
If they just call up and saywhat are your fees?
Guess what?
I am not going to beat thelowest bidder.
There's no way I'm going tobeat the lowest bidder.
I'm going to be greater value,yeah, of course.
So you want to figure outwhat's going on there and I
think when push comes to shove,you should just tell them.
(05:48):
A good recruiter should justtell you this is my fee
structure and for full-timehires it's generally a
percentage of someone's basesalary.
You also want to understand howdo they mark up contractors?
We, generally we don't do apercentage.
Back in the old days when I waswith a Fortune 500, we'd do a
(06:08):
percentage and I was gettingsome of the highest percentages.
You could get like 83% markup.
I think the market's changedand so I just go with a flat
number, a flat dollar amount perhour on someone, so it's more
transparent and at the end ofthe day, you really want, I
think, most of your money to begoing to the candidate.
When you spend more on acandidate, you generally get a
(06:30):
higher value candidate who cando more and cause less headaches
and cause less problems.
So at the low level there'salways that minimum that someone
wants to make.
But when you get to the higherlevel more expensive people like
architects and stuff I just capthe fee at a certain amount per
hour and I think companies thatdo that are being responsible
to their customers.
(06:50):
They're giving them a betterchance.
Josh LeQuire (06:53):
Makes sense right?
I would think you know, beingin my shoes, working with you,
josh, knowing what to expect andwhat to pay is paramount.
I don't necessarily care aboutwhat margin you're making.
I care about what my costs aregoing to be.
Josh Matthews (07:05):
to be very brutally honest with you, and
the quality of the candidatethat you're going to get, of
course, yeah, so I think that'sa.
I would start there withpricing, you know.
Just here's the other thingconversion fees.
So there's something out therecalled contract to hire.
I'm not a huge fan of it, butit's a thing, it's a real thing,
and when it comes to contractto hire, usually someone's
(07:26):
bringing on a contractor andthen, over time, the longer are
companies out there that won'tdo that competitors of mine even
where nope, that's them as acontractor, and if you want them
(07:49):
, you're going to pay the fullfee.
I think that there should be alittle bit of a give, a little
bit of uh, hey, you know, costreduction for having already
earned X amount.
Josh LeQuire (08:00):
On a on the placement of a candidate, yeah,
Well, I'm curious, uh, you know,going a step further how does a
truly effective recruiter goabout understanding the specific
needs and, I would sayimportantly, the culture of your
client's company, rather thanjust matching keywords on a
resume?
Josh Matthews (08:19):
Yeah, I mean you've got to start with a
relationship right, andrelationships take time and
that's time together.
So the more time you spend withsomeone everybody knows this
the more time you spend withsomeone and then the more
intense those experiences are,the deeper the bonds with those
people go.
There's taking the job order,but then it really requires
(08:44):
having that direct communication, ideally with the hiring
manager.
The fewer steps or people inbetween the headhunter or the
recruiter and the actual personthat they're going to be placing
the person with theprofessional with, the more
you're going to understand theirpersonality, the more you're
going to understand theirpersonality right, the more
you're going to understandexactly what their needs are.
(09:05):
Now, that's a big, nice sort oflong way of saying just get to
know somebody.
But in the short term, how doyou do that?
Well, you've got to ask reallygood questions.
I mean, you asked about culture.
Culture gets defined in likefive to 10 different ways.
I like to think of it as commonbehaviors within a company.
Work culture isn't taco Tuesdaylunches or summer Fridays,
(09:29):
you're off at two.
That's not culture, those arebenefits, those are cool little
things.
Culture is actually and we didthis with your, you'll recall.
This is like six years ago atthe Coterie.
We did a big evaluation.
We used profiles to reallydetermine what are the
attributes, the commonattributes, of the people who
are most successful.
(09:50):
Now if you really want to likego hardcore and figure out what
your culture is, then you can dopsychometric testing of top
team members and then evaluatecandidates against that.
I definitely recommend it.
It takes a little bit longer,it adds a little bit of cost,
but it's a great way to do it.
Now, if you're not going to dothat and that's fine, you don't
have to, most people don't thenwhat you have to do is just find
(10:12):
out, tell me about your topperformers.
What are they like?
What do they do?
And sometimes they justdescribe it like hey, look,
they're really funny.
Everyone here is really funny.
They're pretty relaxed, they'rehardworking, but they don't
kill themselves at it.
Other companies are going to saylike, hey, we put in the time.
I know people have families,but we've got important critical
(10:34):
work we're doing.
If you're leaving at five,you're leaving way too early.
You don't want to be the newperson who's walking out at five
o'clock and you turn aroundthere's 40 people still sitting
at their desk.
I know we're all remote now soit doesn't really work, but
still, you don't want to be thefirst person to be away on the
Slack channel.
I guess You're right.
You just figure out what arethose things.
(10:54):
Are they hardworking?
Are they patient?
Are they good listeners?
Are they drivers?
Do they push hard?
Are they yes, people just nodand get it done?
Are they independent?
Do people operate independently?
Are you going to be reallymanaging them?
Are you going to be getting allup in their jazz, josh?
How much are you going toactually be involved with their
(11:17):
day-to-day?
Or do you need someone who islike, just leave it to me, I'll
give you a report on Thursday,we can talk for 10 minutes on
Friday and then I'm going tokeep going, and so you just have
to ask questions around thatfrom a culture standpoint.
Josh LeQuire (11:30):
You hit on a lot of really interesting points
there, josh, and I think whatmade you very attractive to me
and my partners at my last jobas a recruiter was exactly that
you weren't just necessarilyfilling an order right.
You were really trying tounderstand us, who we were, how
we operated.
I think you did a good jobdiscerning that, translating
(11:50):
that into a workable strategy tohelp us find great candidates,
and it worked out well Any goodrecruiter is going to do that.
Josh Matthews (11:59):
I think it's really important to note.
I mean this is because you'reasking me questions about what
people can do and I think it'sreally important to share, kind
of like we talked about clientengagement on the episode,
similar episode, but more abouthow do you hire the right
consulting firm that clientengagement piece is no different
when it comes to recruiting,that manager access is important
(12:22):
.
Consulting firm that clientengagement piece is no different
when it comes to recruiting.
That manager access isimportant.
And when you're selecting agood recruiter, you want someone
who's not going to be afraid ornervous to have conversations
with senior leadership or topush back.
I think, as a customer of arecruiting firm, the clients
really should number one picksomeone who's great, Just pick
someone who's really good, Startthere and then carve out time
(12:48):
for that person, Especially ifyou're just going to hire one
person whatever one person ayear, it's not a big deal.
If you're trying to really builda team, you should really get
to know the recruiter, Becauseif you're getting to know them,
they're getting to know you andif they're getting to know you,
they're going to be able to do away better job of protecting
your time.
They're not going to send youcandidates that aren't going to
work out.
They're going to send peoplethat are going to join your
(13:10):
company and last for a reallylong time.
I think, too, it's reallyimportant to.
If you can work with a singlerecruiter, you can work with a
lot of recruiters.
If you don't trust therecruiters that you're working
with, Does that make sense?
Josh LeQuire (13:25):
It does.
It's almost like you're kind ofputting them in a competitive
situation.
And I'm curious, Josh, and Idon't mean to take you off track
here, but we have multiplerecruiters working for you in a
competitive situation.
Doesn't that elicit differentbehavior from the recruiters
themselves and what they'regoing to do for you?
Josh Matthews (13:41):
Yeah, it's about speed, not quality.
Right, it's about trying tosecure and lock down candidates
before anyone else calls them.
And so if you think about this,this is my favorite example.
I want you to imagine it's taxseason and you've got to get
your taxes done and you sendyour taxes to five CPAs and then
(14:01):
you're just going to actuallypay.
The only person who finishedfirst, not best, not highest
quality, they didn't save youthe most money in taxes.
It's just a race.
You know it's silly.
We don't do that.
Josh LeQuire (14:14):
I think there's, you know, as a hiring manager,
when you're working with yourrecruiter.
Maybe a good tip here is toreally think about, you know,
the spectrum of fast, cheap andgood.
Right, you know, pick two, theway we like to say in our
business Do you want it fast, doyou want it good?
You know and I think itprobably applies to your
(14:34):
business as much as it does mineyou have to really kind of
balance that spectrum and figureout what the optimal you know
kind of risk equation is for youtotally, and like, dude, we are
not like, if you're not inhealth group called up and said,
josh, we need 30 developers.
Josh Matthews (14:46):
You know, by the end of june, like I'm not, I'm
not your guy, like it's notgoing to happen, like I'm it's
just not, maybe sunday.
But we're not big enough to dothat and it would probably
require us to skirt some of thethings that we do, like video
interviewing, versus just quickphone calls and getting them in
the loop.
That kind of thing, yeah.
Josh LeQuire (15:04):
Makes a lot of sense.
Josh, now I'm really curious.
I'd love to flip to the otherside.
What are some significant redflags that a hiring manager
might make a hiring managerpause or even walk away when
they're first engaging with arecruiter?
Josh Matthews (15:18):
I mean just, can they gain rapport with you?
If someone's talking in arobotic way?
If they're communicating, it'sjust like any sales thing.
If the recruiter can't buildrapport with you, it's unlikely
that they're going to bebuilding rapport with the top
candidates that you like, right?
Josh LeQuire (15:35):
Very good point.
Josh Matthews (15:36):
Now the good news is most recruiters I think most
recruiters maybe not all, maybenot even half, but at a certain
level, like if they've beendoing it for a few years then
they're probably going to bepretty good at developing
rapport, and that's a reallygood thing, because a recruiter
who can build rapport with youcan build rapport with the
candidates.
(15:56):
If they can build rapport withthe candidates, the candidates
will open up to them.
If the candidates open up tothem, they will know more about
them and be able to help guideyou whether or not it's a good
decision to bring someone on oreven bring them on.
However, you're going to haveto keep this person really busy.
They get bored fast, like.
(16:17):
That kind of insight can bevery helpful versus waiting
three or four months and goingwhat happened.
I thought this person wasawesome and the whole time that
candidate's not communicatingwhat they need.
But the recruiter could havesaid keep this person busy.
You know, give them a lot ofwork, they get bored fast.
Josh LeQuire (16:34):
I think you're you're touching on the human
side of all this.
Right, we tend to or I tend tomake the mistake sometimes I
won't speak for everybody that Ilook at these things as jobs or
projects or tasks, butforgetting that, hey, this is a
human resource and we need tothink about the relationship and
everything around the job andthe task.
And that's uh, I think I I gotto be honest with you, with my
(16:56):
clients, with my suppliers, withmy business people, I, people
who have hired me, I don't know,not everybody out there kind of
thinks at that level ofrelationship.
So these are really good pearlsof wisdom.
I have some other questions I'dlike to ask.
I think the next one that comesto mind is my experience, and
(17:17):
I'm sure a lot of folkslistening to the show have
experienced this.
We hear quite a bit aboutrecruiters who spam companies
with irrelevant resumes, and howcan our listeners identify
recruiters more focused onquality over quantity, and why
is that approach spammingresumes detrimental?
Josh Matthews (17:32):
Well, it actually works for one.
It actually works.
It doesn't work for my business, but it does work.
The problem with the irrelevantresumes is it's just cheap
content.
Does that make sense?
I have a different approach.
We put a lot of time intocreating these videos or writing
blogs or going to conferences.
If you're out there and gettinginvolved, then you can send
things more than just a bunch ofresumes.
(17:54):
But the idea is to just staytop of mind, right?
It's not that this NETdeveloper that someone sent you
from some company, probably inIndia, wants to pitch you.
It's that like, oh, that's arecruiter and I need a recruiter
, and click respond hey, I don'tneed that, but I do need this.
It's just top of mind.
So it does work.
But it's kind of annoying.
(18:15):
Josh, I think that this part'sreally important.
Very few people go to collegeto be headhunters.
I think there's one program inthe country in college.
No one wakes up and like Ican't, I'm going to grow up and
I'm going to, you know, work atan agency and and be a
headhunter or be a recruiter fora tech technical staffing.
That's no one's dream, okay,but what it does attract are all
(18:37):
the people who are pretty goodwith people, okay with sales,
but don't necessarily reallywant to be full-blown
salespeople, right, and they'rejust interested in people more
than things.
It attracts a lot of the Idon't know what I want to do
people.
I was an art major so of courseI'm a headhunter, right.
So, knowing that that a lot ofpeople are going to come in,
(19:00):
especially to the largecompanies, and there's churn,
there's massive churn.
I mean very few people make ita full year.
So, especially the larger thecompany that you're engaging
with, the more likely you are tosee high turnover.
And so if you call up a bigcompany like a robert half or
K-Force or Tech Systems, thoseare great companies.
They have helped thousands ofcompanies all over the world.
(19:22):
Probably tens of thousands ofmanagers build great teams, but
not everyone in that company hasdone a great job.
So when you call, it's like,hey, who is your most
experienced person whospecializes in this in my town
or in my field?
You just call the front desk.
They'll tell you say great, canyou connect me with them?
(19:42):
Or you can get referrals inyour own network.
Hey, who have you worked for orworked with?
That's been awesome and that'swhat we do.
We work on referrals all thetime.
You do, I mean everyonelistening to this show knows
what referrals are.
Go get a referral.
Call your friends, who have youguys used?
And they'll be like, ah, theywere okay.
(20:02):
If they say they're okay, itmeans they were bad.
If they say that they werepretty good, it means they were
average.
If they say they're likefreaking amazing.
Oh, my God changed our business.
That's who you want to workwith.
Josh LeQuire (20:14):
That's good advice .
Yeah, I think people willgenerally be kind.
They're not going to saysomebody was terrible unless you
know they feel comfortablesaying that, but they will say
somebody's great when they thinksomebody's great.
That's 100% true.
Yeah, that's interesting, josh.
So you kind of played intosomething else that I hear a lot
from folks I've worked withthat sometimes recruiters can be
(20:35):
a little pushy, right?
I'm really curious what yourthoughts are about pressure
tactics.
You know, how can leaders,hiring managers handle
recruiters might seem aggressiveor pushy.
Is that a good thing?
Is that a bad thing?
What are some good and badthings about?
You know kind of the sales sideof recruiting and pushing
candidates and that kind ofstuff.
Josh Matthews (20:54):
No one has ever asked me that before.
That is a really good question.
Yeah, any quality maximized toomuch becomes a liability.
The quality of being quoteunquote pushy is a good thing.
I'm like greed for lack of abetter word is good, right.
So, gordon Gekko, over here.
The reality is you want a levelof that pushiness.
(21:17):
The top candidates are out ofreach.
The top candidates can't becontacted.
The top candidates don't careabout your stupid LinkedIn
message it's the 30th, they'vegot that week.
Or the 40th, they've got thatweek.
Or that phone number that popsup that they don't recognize.
They're never even going tolisten to your voicemail.
So if you don't have a certainlevel of I'll call it
(21:37):
persistence and creativity to beable to access those candidates
, then you've already lost therace.
You're not going to be able todeliver great people and by
great people I mean probably notalways, but 90% of the time
people who are currently workingand not necessarily looking.
So to access that, you have tohave that quality, but you can
(22:01):
overdo it, so it's a goodquality.
I do think that there is apoint when clients need to
listen to the recruiter whenthey're being pushy.
I might say to you, josh, Isubmitted this candidate to you
24 hours ago.
It's not a resume to review.
I've reviewed it.
I pre-screened them.
(22:22):
I did a 45-minute hour-longinterview with them.
You've got all the notes youneed to schedule time.
You haven't given me timesavailable.
This person's hot.
They're interviewing elsewhere.
By the way, they're talking toDeloitte.
Deloitte will drop $30,000 onday one just to get him to go
over.
You don't have that budget.
All you have is speed and I'mnot seeing it so pretty pleased
(22:44):
with sugar on top.
What is your next available 45minute time slot that you can
talk to this person?
right, you should listen to thatthat's pushy, but that's to
your benefit.
Josh LeQuire (22:55):
It is right.
I think the message here isspeed does matter when you're
vetting a good candidate and youneed to trust that the
recruiter you hired is actuallydoing these things for you, not
against you, right, Like youhave to have that level of.
I hired the right expert to dothis job and this expert is
telling me to move fast and Ineed to move fast, yeah.
Josh Matthews (23:17):
I call it tempo right.
Have a good tempo, ideally fromthe time you talk to someone to
the time you're done with yourinterview process.
Now, this is not all companiesright.
We know Salesforce takes a longtime.
We know Netflix has eightinterviews.
We know that the more seniorthe role, the longer that will
go, typically, and it could betwo months from start to finish.
(23:39):
But you definitely want someone.
I think once they're in theloop at least in our industry
for technical roles andfunctional roles you would
ideally want to get someone fromtalking to them and then
through your process, yourtechnical interview, your
cultural conversations or teammember meetings, whatever else
(23:59):
you've got.
That's part of your process.
You want to get them throughthat process inside of two weeks
.
Josh LeQuire (24:05):
Interesting, I've never heard that before.
Josh Matthews (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's just they're looking.
I mean, if you're talking it'sdifferent If someone's like well
, here's something to consider.
I want you to imagine that youneed some unicorn.
Your recruiter finds thatunicorn for you.
Take some three weeks.
They find that unicorn for you.
They present that candidate toyou.
What's going to happen?
(24:27):
As soon as that passivecandidate who has a job that
they like, who's alreadycompensated very well, who
wasn't even thinking aboutleaving their company but will
for the right offer and for theright opportunity, that person's
brain is now going.
Huh, these people are treatingme really nicely.
They're talking big numbers.
I wonder what else is out there.
Passive candidates only staypassive for a couple weeks.
(24:50):
As soon as you get them, as soonas they agree to interview with
you.
That's not a passive candidateanymore and now the world's
their oyster.
Josh LeQuire (24:59):
That makes a lot of sense, josh, and that,
honestly, is great perspectivefor me.
Selfishly, I'm going to keepthat in mind for my next hire,
but I think that's good advicefor all the folks listening to
this show.
I think we kind of tend tothink like, oh, we're in the
driver's seat, we're hiringsomebody, we're throwing the
paychecks out, they can wait onus.
(25:20):
But that's not the rightmentality.
I think as a hiring manager, asan employer, that's a dangerous
assumption.
Josh Matthews (25:27):
Here's a tip for everyone out there, regardless
of who you're hiring, who you'regoing through, who you're
working with, whatever, when youknow that you need to hire
someone, it's because you'reunderstaffed.
I mean, there's a handful ofpeople that are like, oh, we've
got this project and we'reresource planning and it's going
to come up.
But no, let's face it, ifyou're listening to this show,
(25:49):
chances are at some point inyour life you've been like I'm
overwhelmed, my team'soverwhelmed, the work's not
getting done.
Now you're in a horribleposition because you didn't
resource plan, or maybe someonequit right and you're just kind
of left holding the bag, andthat's not a good feeling.
That doesn't feel good at all.
So what happens is you're sobusy now that you don't have
(26:09):
time for recruiting, but youronly way out of this pit is to
have interviews and hire someone.
So carve out time.
Just time block.
If you're working with arecruiter, you say hey, josh,
how many interviews do youexpect?
I'll likely have with initialinterviews next week.
You might say three, andthey'll each need to be 45
(26:30):
minutes.
Can you give me two time blocksof two hours so I can work with
that?
And then you go into yourcalendar and you hit block and
then no one can book a meeting.
And you're not booking ameeting.
And guess what If there's nomeeting at that time?
That's okay, you're going toget other work done, but it's at
least protected.
Josh LeQuire (26:47):
These sound like trivial things, but they're not
right.
Carving out time is theultimate roadblock to getting
any of the remaining cascadingnine or 10 events that need to
occur, so that's incredibly goodadvice, Josh.
Josh Matthews (27:00):
Client engagement .
It starts with your calendar.
Make the time.
Josh LeQuire (27:04):
Thank you, Ryan.
What are two or three of themost critical questions they
should ask during the initialvetting call or vetting process?
Josh Matthews (27:13):
Yeah, I mean again, I think we kind of
covered some of it at thebeginning how long have you done
this?
Can you tell me about a coupleof recent placements and what's
your process?
If the process doesn't includevideo interviewing, then you're
dealing with a different levelof recruiter.
So do you do video interviewing?
Do you give me a write-up?
(27:34):
Can you send me an example of aprofile that you've put
together for someone?
So, as an example, when I'msubmitting a candidate, I take
all of my notes from probablytwo conversations and I put that
together so that they can getthe insights.
A lot of people will put innotes and all they're doing are
(27:54):
highlights from the resume.
Highlights from the resume.
Right?
Oh, this person has five yearsexperience and they have a
degree in this and they havethese certifications and they
have two years as a solutionarchitect.
Okay, I could see that in fiveseconds on the resume.
What I want to know is whenthings go wrong, what do they do
(28:16):
?
What's the one thing thatthey're actually really working
on?
What's the third-party evidence?
What would their managers agreeon consistently?
If there's one thing that theirfamily believes would improve
their life the most, what wouldbe that thing?
Man.
You'll hear all sorts of stuff.
My temper, you'll hear.
(28:36):
I could lose weight, I couldcarve out more time for my
family, I could be more patient.
You're going to learn a lotabout someone and it's the
recruiter's job to pull that out, because you, as a hiring
manager, you're not aprofessional interviewer.
You probably never were.
If you've got a hundredinterviews under your belt,
congratulations.
You've got three months ofjunior recruiting experience.
(28:59):
That's nothing.
Josh LeQuire (29:00):
And you and I talked about this once.
I remember you'd ask me howmany interviews have you done,
josh, and I thought maybe 80 or100.
And then I asked you and yousaid oh, I think maybe 15,000 or
20,000.
Josh Matthews (29:10):
And it kind of blew my mind.
No, it wasn't 20, but yeah,yeah, something like that, yeah,
yeah.
And you just think about, Ithink about, like Malcolm
Gladwell's, you know, the 10,000hours of expertise.
So what do you need there?
Well, you need, that's, fivesolid years.
Someone hasn't done it for fiveyears.
They're going to be prettyjunior.
It doesn't mean, don't givethem a shot.
(29:30):
They might be really good, butthey should cut their teeth on
someone other than you.
Makes sense.
Josh LeQuire (29:36):
What is the ultimate advice you could give
to our audience when they'relooking for a recruiter who
would genuinely drive theirbusiness forward by finding the
right talent?
What would that be?
What's that ultimate advice?
Josh Matthews (29:50):
That's such a hard question.
I would invest in your owninterviewing ability.
I mean, you can lean on arecruiter, you can lean on me,
I'll be your friend.
But if the process sort ofstops there, the quality of the
process stops there, I don'tknow.
(30:11):
I don't know if your success isgonna be that great.
Get really good at doing yourpart.
You can pick a good recruiterand work with them.
They're gonna take care of you.
But you've got to take care ofall of those conversations
inside.
Have a process.
What kinds of questions are youasking?
How do you interpret thoseanswers?
Get good at interviewing.
Watch some YouTube videos,practice, train it.
(30:32):
Come in with a plan and thencheck your biases.
Or check your bias.
If I'm in love with thiscandidate, I need to find out
why I'm not.
You know, I got to find somedirt on them.
If I don't like this person, Igot to find a reason why you
know I really like them.
Josh LeQuire (30:48):
Thank you, this has been wonderful.
I really appreciate everythingyou've shared here.
It's been insightful for meespecially, and I plan on taking
this, integrating this, into myown endeavors Right on man.
Josh Matthews (31:00):
If you're serious about leveling up your
Salesforce game, hit upccurrentscom for pro-level
implementations, services andapplication development, and if
you're hiring or looking,thesalesforcerecruitercom.
It's where connections are made.
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