Episode 00. “Where Have all the Christians Gone?”

Radio and TV host Manwell Grady interviews the co-hosts of Saving Christianity.  He asks about their careers, educations, and families, and asks why they created such a challenging podcast.  The interview is blunt and honest about today's Christian crisis, with clear advice for Christians feeling overwhelmed by today's hostile world.

Episode Transcript

Manwell (00:00):
Manwell Grady opens the interview by saying
friends! I'm Manwell Grady.
Today, I'm in Greensboro, NorthCarolina, with the Christian
Family Online in Americaorganization.

(00:22):
I'm here to report on a newpodcast that Christian Family
Online is launching.
It has the intriguing n ame,"Saving Christianity." I'm here
to interview the co-hosts ofthis unusual podcast.
Their names are Owen Allen andJohn Shields.
They're here with me now in thestudio.
So let's start by greeting them.

(00:42):
Hello, Owen and John! Good to bewith you this morning! How are
you guys doing?

Owen (00:45):
Oh, thank you, Manwell.
It's a joy to be here.

John (00:47):
Yeah, I'm excited that we can be together.

Manwell (00:48):
Well, welcome to you both! Now, let's start at the
beginning.
The name of your new podcast is,"Saving Christianity." So why do
you think Christianity evenneeds saving?
And Owen, why don't you start?
Then John, you jump in whenOwen's finished.

Owen (01:07):
That's a perfect question, Manwell.
That's the title of my new book,"Saving Christianity." Many
people may see it in thebookstore or somewhere and
think, well, I didn't realizeChristianity needed saving.
But when you stop and thinkabout it, in the Bible, both in
Hebrew of the Old Testament, andin the Greek of the New

(01:30):
Testament; and even in theEnglish translation of those two
ancient languages, the word"saving" means the same thing:
It means to preserve.
It means to restore.
It means to keep for future use.
It means to deliver fromjudgment.
It has many similar meanings.
Now, I've studied Christianhistory and the Christian

(01:55):
denominations most of my life.
And I know we've talked aboutthis off-camera.
But actually, with Christianity,you can measure it a couple of
different ways.
Number one, as far as worshipattendance on the Lord's Day,
that has been steadily droppingsince 1950.

(02:16):
Most people don't realize that.
The most recent attendancefigure was that only 16% of the
American population is nowattending in-person worship.
And of course, I personallybelieve that now with the
horrible 2020 we've seen withthe Covid-19 crisis, I feel sure

(02:40):
that's at 10% or less now.
And here's the kicker.
Those people will probably nevercome back.
Surveys show that most of themwill either drop out of
Christianity completely, orthey'll join some other
religion, such the New Age orwhatever.
But finally, another thing wecan measure is the decreased

(03:02):
influence that Christianity hason America.
We know that in the 1600s,1700s, and 1800s, church
buildings and the Christianexperience were central to
communities.
Many times, the so-called"churchbuilding" doubled as a classroom

(03:22):
and a community center forcommunities.
But beyond all of that, you cantell by the change in the
morality of the Americanculture, or what I call the
coarsening of the Americanculture.
I mean, I hear things, comments,and words being used on network

(03:46):
TV and radio today by newscommentators that would have
caused them to be cut off theair 40 or 50 years ago.
But now, that kind of language,that kind of slang, is accepted.
And so for all those reasons, Ithought that somebody has got to
do something about this crisis.

(04:07):
And with John's encouragement,sitting here beside me, I wrote
this book.
It was published in February of2020.
And we're very excited, becausewe think we have some of the
answers to this terrible crisis.

John (04:21):
Yeah, for sure.
For me Manwell, it's a ditto toeverything Owen just said.
But a couple things really standout f or me.
One is the disparity betweenwhat Christianity is in its
essence, according to not onlywhat the Bible has to say, but

(04:46):
how it's actually lived out.
When you lay that template overour culture, you see a wide gap
between what the Bible says, andhow people are living.
Everywhere we look, there arepeople struggling and hurting.
And at the end of the day, o uronly hope is in the message of

(05:12):
Ch ristianity.
It's the Good News that we alltalk about, but many people
never really experienced.
And that's not becauseChristianity has failed.
It's because we have failed tounderstand Christianity for what
it truly is.
So in some measure, we're tryingto get back to original

(05:33):
Christianity to make adifference, a real difference,
in people's everyday lives--including our own lives.

Manwell (05:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, the way we lookat it, this could be somewhat of
a bleak outlook.
But as you said, this is theGood News.
It's not filled yet.
But perhaps we can f ill i t.
So, O wen, I understand that theidea for the podcast came from
your latest book, SavingChristianity, which was
published this year by Seymourpress.

(06:01):
Now, tell us why you wrote thebook, and what the book is all
about.

Owen (06:05):
Well, we've really been touching on that already,
Manwell.
But what I have discovered in mylife, frankly, since childhood,
is that it's like an old sayinga friend of mine used to use.
He'd say,"Don't you think God isbigger than what you see on
Sunday morning?" In other words,God is bigger than the

(06:28):
traditional denominationalworship services that we see.
And I'm sure we'll get into somemore of this as we go along.
But the point is, that they bearno resemblance to the kind of
worship experiences the firstChristians had.
The people I call the"original"Christians in the first three
centuries of Christianity.

(06:50):
So I made it my business yearsago to study and find out what
it was that they did.
Why were they so different fromChristians today?
Where did their Spiritual powercome from?
Where did the healings, and thevisions, and the other wonderful
experiences come from?
I began to study all that, and Ifeel that I found some of the

(07:11):
answers.
And I wrote the book to putthose answers on paper, so other
people could see them and readthem.
So, essentially, what's the bookall about?
It's about what Christianity wasoriginally, and how we can we
get back to that today.
It's all about what I call the"Early Christian Lifestyle."

(07:34):
John has already touched onthat.
There's a little motto I use.
It says,"If we do what they did,we'll have what they had." And
that's the theme of the book.

John (07:46):
Well, let me jump in and say this.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
What we've seen in many peopleis that they're not engaged.
They have some level of faith inChrist.
They haven't really rejectedHim.
They know some of what God'sWord says.

(08:08):
But they've rejected today'sdistorted, confused, generic
part of what authentic faithreally is.
And so what we're hoping throughthe book, and the podcast, is
that God will allow is to helppeople to come back, and to see

(08:31):
the original template, or theoriginal blueprint, of
Christianity.
Or at least, to be able to makea decision based on that.
A decision that's accurate.

Manwell (08:43):
That's good.
You know, I learned many yearsago from one of my mentors, that
you have to piggyback on others.
None of us know all there is toknow.
And we're seeing from yourstatement that people often
haven't rejected the Person ofJesus.
They've rejected ourpresentation of Him, one t hat
has been in e rror.
Our lives inform us of ourworld, and why we get involved

(09:05):
in what we get involved in, andit s hakes our w orld view, and
even our view of Christ.
But now, Owen, on a p e rsonal no te, te ll us a little bit
about your background.
Where you're from, do you havechildren, and what's your career
and educational background?

Owen (09:19):
Well, let me just tuck in something sideways here,
something that should be evidentfrom all that we're saying.
And it's this.
There are many, many religionson earth.
Many people have never stoppedto think about that.
Some sources say there are 400major religions on the planet.
Some say there are many more.
But, of all of those religions,and all those religious

(09:42):
experiences, Christianity is themost amazing, powerful,
rewarding, and exciting religionon the face of the earth.
And we want more people, evenprofessing Christians, who are
not experiencing that, to startexperiencing it! Now, about me,

(10:06):
I don't like to talk aboutmyself much.
But as one of my editors used tosay,"I'm the oldest horse in the
barn." Joanna and I have fourchildren and 12 grandchildren.
And so far, we have eightgreat-grandchildren.
So we have a fairly big family.

(10:26):
But I'm a Floridian.
My parents lived in Jacksonvillewhen I was born.
And then, when I was eight ornine or 10, I don't remember the
age, we moved to Tampa.
So I grew up in Tampa, and itwas a wonderful experience.
We were on a ranch there, andthere are many things I could
talk about.
But at the age of 17, I joinedthe Marines, and left Florida
when I was 18, and never wentback, except for vacations.

I've lived all over the country: St. (10:49):
undefined
Louis, New York, Chicago, anddifferent places.
As far as my career, when I wasin my thirties, I started my own
consulting company, and ran ituntil recently.
It was an internationalconsulting and training practice
, in which I taughtproblem-solving, decision

(11:11):
-making, and problem-preventionto major companies.
I'm sure we'll come back to thatin a few minutes.
But educationally, I guess I'mwhat they call a"professional
student." I started in the1950s, and I still study today.
But my doctoral degree is inorganizational behavior.
We'll probably mention thisagain, but it finally occurred

to me (11:30):
Why shouldn't I take the principles that I was using in
team-building, for example, withmy clients-- which were
companies like general electric,John Deere, and Hilton hotels--
and why didn't I apply thoseprinciples back to Christianity?
Because it gradually dawned onme that the small groups the

(11:55):
Christians had in the First,Second, Third Centuries were
really what we call"teams" todayin"team-building." So that's
where all of this folded into mybook.
We just put a Christian spin orapplication on it.
I've been a Christian since Iwas 11.
But I've been disillusioned mostof those years.

(12:18):
So that's a little about me.

Manwell (12:20):
Okay.
Now let's get back into asubject matter here.
Because the question comes tomind:"If things are so bad i n
Christianity, then how do weexplain the growth of the
"mega-churches"?
I mean, I know o f mega-churchest hat h ave t wo or three
thousand members a nd more.
And so I'd be willing to wagerthat t heir pastors don't see a
"problem" with Christianity.

(12:41):
Because the n ickels and noses--the money and the attendance--
and things like that, may insome people's minds reflect a
certain degree of success, andeven favor from God.
So John, speak to that.

John (12:55):
Yeah.

I would say to that (12:55):
It all gets back to how you actually measure
success, right?
If you're measuring it byattendance numbers, then for
sure, those pastors wouldn't seea"problem." But if you look
beyond the attendance numbers,and look at the Spirituality of
the people...

Manwell (13:14):
That's a good book title!"Look Beyond The Numbers."
(Laughter.)

John (13:19):
...
and it how they're actuallyliving their lives.
What are they actuallyexperiencing in their daily
walk?
And what influence-- or the lackthereof-- are they having on our
communities, and on our cultureat large?
Then you don't have to go veryfar to see that,"Houston, we

(13:41):
have a problem!"

Manwell (13:42):
Absolutely.
Owen, you fill in on that.
All the numbers, and thebuildings.

Owen (13:47):
Yeah.
And there's another way to lookat that.
Because back some years ago,there were only five or six
mega-churches in America.
Mega-churches are defined ashaving a minimum of 2000
worshipers every Lord's Day.
Now, there are, at the lastfigure I saw, about 1,500.

(14:09):
So t hey jumped from six orseven, to over a thousand.
So people say,"Hot dog! Look atthat.
There's no problem inChristianity." A nd many pastors
will say that on radio and TV.
They don't see a problem.
But let's stop and think asecond.
Why are the mega-churchesgrowing?

(14:29):
Where are those people comingfrom?
Actually, we know that the pool,the overall pool of Christianity
-- I'm sorry to say-- isshrinking.
We know that several decadesago, 91% of the American
population professed to beChristians.
Today, only 71% do.

(14:50):
And that number is continuing todrop.
Well, if that's happening, thenwhere is the growth in the
mega-churches coming from?
What analysis shows is that, asthe smaller churches fail and
close-- and we'll probably comeback to this thought-- the
survivors are looking forsomewhere to go.
Half of them stay home.
But the other half look foranother church.

(15:13):
Not so much, mind you, for thespirituality.
But for the excitement of theprograms.
The Scouts, and the concerts,and all the h oopla t hat the
mega churches can offer.
That's what attracts people.
So, what the pastors of themega-churches-- many of whom I
know personally-- don't realize,is that th ey're g etting the

(15:37):
survivors of a disaster.
The growth of their church inattendance is not an indication
that Christianity is successfulan d g rowing.

Manwell (15:45):
Right.
And so that becomes acannibalization of the church, a
kind of feeding off itself inparasitic way.
There was a pastor who told mesomething years ago.
He said, basically, that themega-churches"swallow up"-- that
was his term-- the smallerchurches.
And then you have this.

(16:06):
I want to be delicate here.
But this is"inbreeding," for thelack of a better term.
We're not really winning peopleto Christ.
We're just shuffling the peopleback and forth.
And so, based on this, when Ithink about the numbers of
questions we're dealing with,John, there are a lot of things
that are big.

(16:26):
Years ago, I had some swellingin my arm, and it looked great!
(Laughter.) It was about twoyears ago, and I was maybe 160
pounds back then.
And it looked great on the outside.
It was like a muscle.
But it was a swelling.
And the Lord spoke to me andsaid,"Swelling is not growth."
So there are a lot of thingsthat might be swollen a nd

(16:47):
large.
But they're not necessarilygrowth.
So, when we look at this, ifthis is true, let me ask you
this.
Can either of you give ourlisteners an example of a church
building closing?
Because to be honest, I haven'tseen any church buildings
closing in my neighborhood!

Owen (17:04):
Let me take a shot at that before John.
Statistics show that severalthousand church buildings are
being abandoned each and everyyear nationwide.
For example, where we live inthe State of North Carolina, in

(17:25):
the past three or four years,real estate records show that 40
church buildings have beenabandoned.
And then in the County in whichI live, in the past couple of
years, 10 have been abandoned.
So that's telling you that thepool of Christians is shrinking
because nobody's attending.
So they close up the buildings.

Manwell (17:45):
You said the past couple of years! So we can't
blame this on the Covid-19pandemic.
Correct?

Owen (17:50):
Exactly.
And I can give you a verypainful example.
My wife, Joanna's, homecongregation was in Greensboro,
North Carolina.
And several years ago, they weredown to 10 or 11 attendees! Now,
when she was a young woman, anda young girl, they had several

(18:10):
hundred attendees.
So they padlocked the building,with everything completely as it
was.
Hymn books in the pews.
There were files on the pastor'sdesk.
The library was full of books.
They padlocked the building.
They kept the heat and utilitieson for several years.

(18:31):
But they couldn't do anythingwith it.
Recently-- about a year ago--they had their final reunion.
I went to it with my wife.
They had a covered dish dinner,and everybody hugged and cried.
And then they bulldozed thebuilding.
Today, it's a parking lot.
That's not a random experience.

(18:53):
That's a national experience.
And that's why we're alarmed.
That's why I wrote this book.

John (19:00):
Yeah.
And from our studio here,Manwell, we could leave, and
within a five mile radius ofthis place, I know for a fact
that there are church buildingsall around us that, week to
week, have only 20 or 25 people.

(19:24):
And no prospects for growth inany way.
And so-- unfortunately-- unlessGod intervenes, that's going to
be the story of these othercongregations as well.

Manwell (19:43):
And that's dire.
Because there are tributaries ofeffect of that.
The collateral damage of that ismore far-reaching than we have
time to discuss in this episode.
Because when that happens, apastor's or leader's, self-worth
comes into question.
"What am I doing wrong?
What's wrong with me?" Maybesome of the congregates say,

(20:03):
"Well, only if you'd been here,my brother wouldn't have died."
There are so many other thingswe see, like pastoral depression
and, unfortunately, suicides.
Even that's there.
So I've g ot t o confess t o youguys, to be honest, I did some
research before I came to thestudio today.

(20:24):
And I know that w hat the two ofyou are saying is true.
There are a plethora of churchesabout t o close.
And so, we've given thisinterview the title,"Where Have
All The Christians Gone?"(Repeats title.) And I know some
people may think that'sfantastical or whatever.
But actually I did find that theChristian population in America

(20:45):
has shrunken, as we said.
When you look at the statisticsfrom 91% to 71% in recent
decades, that's a 20% drop inthe Christian population.
So we have a real situationhere.
Actually, I did find thatworship attendance has also
fallen, from 50% of thepopulation each Sunday-- which

(21:06):
any kind of attendance where youget half of the population out,
whether it's football...
or whatever, that would begreat.
From 50% each Sunday to 16% eachSunday in just a few decades.
That's a 34% drop in attendance.
That would shake the knees ofany of your corporate clients,
from Hilton to anybody, t o havet hat kind of drop.

(21:29):
It's a free fall.
So, I see what's motivating youguys.
S o t ell me this.
What makes the two of you thinkthat your"Saving Christianity"
podcast can help in the crisisthat we're facing in
Christianity?

Owen (21:43):
Well, let me take a shot at that first.
And then John can pick it up.
There's a beautiful scripture in(the Bible book of) Hebrews that
says,"Jesus is the sameyesterday, today, and forever."
And so, when you stop and thinkabout it, the Spirituality, the

(22:08):
Spiritual power of Christianity,is the very same today as it was
in the First Century, whenChristianity was founded.

So the question now becomes: Well then, what's happened? (22:19):
undefined
Because many Christians today donot have the power-- the
Spiritual power-- the Gifts andthe Fruit of the Spirit that
they had in ancient times.
So, where did it go?
God didn't go anywhere! The HolySpirit didn't go anywhere.

(22:41):
The Fruit and the Gifts didn'tgo anywhere.
So what has happened?
That was the question I set outto solve in my book.
What happened to the power, andcan we get it back?
And I found both answers, andthey're in that book.
So that's the way I feel aboutit.

John (23:02):
And I would just add to that for both of us.
Owen is a little bit older thanI am.
So he experienced this earlierthan I did.
But nevertheless, we have bothexperienced it.
For me, it was early on in myChristian experience, in the

(23:22):
early 1980s, where we"lived itout." Both of us did.
We"lived it out" in community,just what the book is about, and
what we're talking about.
And quite frankly, we miss that.
And that's the way we know it'sreal and that it's available.

(23:43):
But we know that we've got 20centuries of sediment to dig
through.
But we feel like it's worth thedig.

Manwell (23:57):
A little bit of "Spiritual Archaeology" going on
there! So as you mentioned, youguys have been friends for over
30 years.
That's worth the price ofadmission to a podcast that
itself is related torelationships! So how did you
guys to meet?
And how have you remainedfriends for all these many
years?

John (24:16):
Well, for me, I met Owen first when I was a young Bible
college student, preparing tovocationally serve as a
minister.
And we were just friends.

(24:39):
Not to have a cliche, but it wasjust"a God thing." I don't know
that he necessarily looked at(things) like I did.
But particularly, I saw him ashaving so much more life
experience than I had.
Whatever I could learn from himto help me, I knew that would be

(25:01):
beneficial.
And it was just alike-mindedness from the
beginning.
And I saw him as Paul, and I wasa Timothy.
I think everybody needs a Paul and a Timothy in their life.
And so, under circumstances, Imoved away for a while, and then

(25:25):
I moved back.
It was just the b usiness oflife.
But we were able to really getback connected in 1994.
And w e've been on a deepfriendship, working together
ever since then.

Manwell (25:42):
And from that, tell us a little bit about your

background (25:44):
Your wife, children, where you've worked, education?

John (25:49):
Well, Owen is a Floridian and I'm a Virginian.

Manwell (25:53):
All right! That sounds like a football rally!
(Laughter.)

John (25:54):
Yeah, it does.
But I grew up in Virginia, insmall town, rural Virginia.
I worked on a farm all my lifegrowing up.
I actually thought that's whereI'd be born, live, and die.
And that was kind of my worldview.
And thankfully, God had a biggerplan than that.

(26:16):
And when I came to faith, when Iwas about 21 years old, I came
to faith, and it's been quite anadventure since then.
I'm married, and my wife's nameis"Kit." We have four children
that are grown and gone now.

Manwell (26:36):
Hallelujah! Yeah, I've got one that was gone, and she
came back!

John (26:41):
Right, yeah! A boomerang instead of an arrow! But it's
just us and the dog.
I went to a Bible college.
I finished Bible college andwent to seminary, and graduated
from seminary.
And I've been pastoringvocationally for almost almost

(27:02):
30 years now.

Manwell (27:03):
So you have a degree in theology, correct?
You went to seminary, but didany of that prepare you for what
we're facing today inChristianity?
(No!) Are you sure?
(Laughter.) You want me to giveyou another shot at that?

John (27:15):
I don't think so! I don't have to think long and hard
about that.

Manwell (27:21):
Okay, let me ask, as a full-time pastor, does it make
you uncomfortable to be theco-host of a podcast that says
Christianity is in trouble?
What do your members think, yourcongregation, about your
podcast, and these things goingpublic?

(27:42):
Because we're kind of talkingabout the"family business" now,
you know.
Some of the things that we usedto cover, thinking almost to the
point that what happens in thishouse stays in this house.
But the house has a leak in it,correct?

John (27:55):
No, I'm not uncomfortable at all in it.
In fact, it's a breath of freshair for me.
(Right.
It's refreshing!) It's extremelyrefreshing.
You know, it's one thing to seethe problem.
But it's another to be able towork towards a solution.

(28:18):
Once, I was working during abreak in ministry a few years
ago, and the gentleman I workedfor, every morning at our staff
meeting, he would tell us that,"If you bring me a problem, then
you need to bring a solutionwith you."

Manwell (28:38):
Yeah, I've heard that.
Bring two or three solutions.

John (28:41):
So, we've been in different circles.
We've been with people who seethat there is a problem.
They can't put their finger onwhat that problem is, exactly.
But nevertheless, we know thatthere is one.
And so we've been able to reallyidentify that problem-- what we

(29:07):
perceive it to be-- and not justtalk about it.
But,"Let's look for a solution!"And we believe we're on to the
solution to this.

Manwell (29:18):
And it's so true, because the reality is that as
it relates,"the emperor has noclothes." And we don't want to
talk about the fact that theemperor is up there unclothed.
But it is evident, and we havehidden it behind things like,
"Oh, we're in transition.""It'sa shaking, a falling away."(It's

(29:38):
a revival!) Oh, we've dressed itin so much, using religious
language as an excuse so as notto deal with it.
And I think it's important,because our people see it, they
see when they come to church...
there is less and less passion.
So, Owen.
Okay, let me ask you the samequestion.
Your education is anorganizational behavior.

(30:00):
And so you were formally, as youmentioned, a management
consultant for fortune 500companies-- John Deere, General
Electric Hilton Hotels, and allof them.
So, why do you think theprinciples of organizational
behavior can help the crisisthat we're in with Christianity?
And first of all, for ourlisteners, describe what
organizational behavior is, as avocational capacity.

Owen (30:23):
Well, if you go to Management Schools, or Schools
of Management, one of the majorsthat you can major in is
Organizational Behavior, whichwe students called"OB," for
short.
And organizational behavior is anew discipline.
It's 20 to 30 years old,compared to math and stuff,

(30:45):
which have been around forcenturies.
OB is a combination discipline,actually.
It includes psychology,sociology, archaeology, and
anthropology, all of those aremixed together.
And I had courses in all ofthem.
I studied intently, and did alot of work in human

personality (31:06):
Why people do the things that they do.
Motivation, and all those areas.
And so you can obviously seewhere that not only helped major
companies that I worked with.
And I tell some stories aboutthat in the book.
But also, you can see that's whyyou eventually swing around and

(31:29):
focus that on Christianity andwhat's going on.
For example, Gallup polls areextremely interesting, and most
people know what a Gallup pollis.
I knew George Gallop personally.
He's deceased now.
But one night, we were havingdinner in Washington and talking

(31:49):
about it.
He, by the way, was a strongChristian.
He was very concerned about it,and he used to speak on TV about
the problem that we're talkingabout.
So, we were talking about howwhen he does Gallup polls of
Christians, and asks thembehavioral questions, like,"How

(32:10):
do you feel about morningworship," for example.
Or,"How do you feel about thecongregation of which you're a
member," or"of which you justdropped out recently?"
(Laughter.) And the answers werealways the same.
And have been for decades.
Imagine this now.
Fasten your seatbelt.
Because the Gallup polls showthat most Christians, even those

(32:33):
who are active attendees-- thinkabout that a second-- will tell
a pollster privately that theyfeel that their congregation is
hypocritical.
That their congregation isirrelevant.
That their congregation reallyhas no impact on their life at
all.
So you say,"Well, why do youattend t hen?

(32:56):
" And they say,"What choice do Ihave?
It's either that, or stay homeand read a book." It's horrible.
I t m akes y ou want to tearyour hair out.

So, to answer your question (33:05):
How does organizational behavior fit
the picture?
I t ouched on it earlier.
But I did a tremendous amount oftraining in what we call"teams"
and"team-work," right, for thesemajor companies for years.

(33:28):
And it would completelyrevolutionize their production,
their productivity.
You say,"Well, who cares aboutthat?" Well, wait a minute.
Shouldn't Christians beproductive?
Shouldn't Christians beconcerned with productivity?
The only difference is, we'renot producing lawnmowers.
We're trying to produceSpiritual p eople.

(33:49):
Whereas, many people today, ofcourse, are n ot Spiritual, or
they're unspiritual, if you wantto use that word.
So, I believe that theprinciples that worked in my
business career as a consultant,and as a trainer, and as a
business writer-- I wrote anumber of business books before

(34:13):
I wrote this Christian book--they apply just as well.
Because behavior, motivation,and human nature, a re the same
everywhere you go.
Whether it's at John Deere, orwhether it's at your local
Christian congregation.
And there's an old saying inmanagement that,"Recognizing

(34:38):
that a problem exists, is halfof the solution." And I r
ecognized that a big problemexists.
And so now we're trying to crafta solution.

Manwell (34:50):
That's good.
You know, in my pastorate, manyyears ago, we would have the
state of the union address bythe president.
And I would do the state of ourchurch address.
And one of the things I did,that a lot of pastors thought
perhaps wasn't a good idea, iswhat you recommended.
I would put out a survey, andamong those questions, it would

(35:11):
be like,"What do you not enjoy?"Like you said, we're all so
hypocritical.
It's whatever.
But it helped me.
And it helped me to tune upmyself.
And I think a lot of leadersdon't want to self-evaluate.
And if you don't self-evaluate,you end up doing the"autopsy" of
your ministry.
(Laughter.) So it's better to goto the doctor-- the natural and

(35:33):
the Spiritual! Well, gentlemen,let's summarize our discussion
to this point, so our listenerscan get a good overview of what
we've been discussing here.
So, given all that we've saidtoday, let's ask this question:
Don't you think that peopletoday are too educated, too
technical, perhaps too busy, tobe bothered with a deeper walk

(35:56):
in Christianity?
And Owen, you go first, thenJohn.
You know, one of the things wehave on Sunday morning, it used
to be that it was unthinkablewhen you were children to(not go
to church).
I'm only about 10 or 15 yearsyounger than you gentlemen.
But to wake up on Sundaymorning, and if you were a
Christian household, to not goto church.
Now we wake up, and we're makingup o ur mind: Are we going to
church?
A re we g oing to golf?

(36:17):
Are we going to brunch?
I would want to go to CrackerBarrel.
(Laughter.) The options that wehave leveled against worship are
a little bit disturbing to me.
So John, w e start with you.
Are we too technical, tooeducated?

John (36:29):
Well, the answer to that is
No question about that.
We recognize that.
But that being said, the otherside of that is"No." We also
recognize the masses.

(36:52):
You know, God has a heart forthe masses.
But we also know that the masseshave not, and will not, respond.
So we believe there is-- I don'tknow what the percentage is--
but we believe t here's a fairlylarge percentage of people out

(37:12):
there who are, despite thedistractions, are searching.
They're actually searching.
And they, a nd their life-- ifthey were judgment day honest--
are empty.
And they feel that emptiness.
And now they try to fill it, ofcourse, in a thousand different

(37:33):
ways.
But at the end of the day, it'sempty.
And yeah, we definitely believe...
you know, we're not arrogant.
As the Bible says, we don'tthink too highly of ourselves,
to think that we're the only twopeople that have figured out the

(37:54):
problem.
But nevertheless, we do believethat this is of God, and this is
of the Spirit, and so we'refollowing His leading.
It's just not Owen and me.
It's not just a good idea wecame up with.

(38:14):
So therefore, we're trying to doour due diligence.
And the results are going to be...
we're"swinging for the fence!"(We have to!) And so the results
...
we're going to just trust toHim.

Manwell (38:32):
The stakes are too high to"bunt" right now.
We've got a swing for the fence.
And not to be overly dramatic,but you know, at one point, the
Lord said,"I've got 7,000 more."That's about the need, when
someone thought that maybe theywere out there by themselves.
And the fact that I'm at thistable with you gentlemen in the
studio, I think is symbolic ofthe many like-minded men and
women who have a true concernfor this, and maybe have not

(38:55):
found a platform.
I'm so excited about thepodcast.
But same question to you, Owen.
As we look at people's busyness,their education, the technical
acumen that we have, thatperhaps the ego...
E-G-0...
has edged us out.

Owen (39:10):
Well, you know, we've sort of answered that in a roundabout
way through several of ourquestions.
But we said that the Holy Spirithas not changed since the First
Century.
And if you think about it--neither have people! And a lot
of times, we don't realize that,until we read their letters and

(39:34):
read the history, read thediaries that they left behind,
that the people in the FirstCentury, the people that I call
the original Christians, wereexactly the same as we are.
They were very busy for onething.
Many of them worked, as the oldfarmer said,"from can't to
can't." They"can't see" whenthey get up, and they"can't see"

(39:57):
when they go to bed.
You know, from dark to dark.
Many of them were extremelybusy.
Many of them were extremelyintelligent.
Paul for example, had theequivalent of a doctorate of his
day, and was a very brilliant,educated man.
So, when you think about it,they were as busy as we are.
And there's another thing, oneother real quick thing, that

(40:19):
people don't realize.
Israel, in those days was anenemy occupied country.
In the same way, for example,that maybe the Nazis occupied
France and our time.
The Roman army had conqueredIsrael, and installed a Roman
governor from Rome over thecountry.

(40:41):
Soldiers dominated everything.
And you had to do what theysaid.
If a soldier stopped you on thestreet and said,"Carry my
luggage!" You had to carry it.
Those types of things.
And then, of course, there wereterrible abuses.

And so think about it now (40:56):
Here are these Early Christians.
They're living in an enemyoccupied country.
They're surrounded by enemysoldiers.
They're working from dark todark.
Many of them were highlyeducated.
Of course, many were not.
In those days, the averageperson couldn't read or write.
But, they were still bright.

(41:18):
They were humans.
And they had all the feelingsthat we have now.
Then, if they were driven, andmotivated, and compelled, to
become Christians, there had tobe a reason.
And that's why I don't callChristianity a"religion." I call
it an"experience." And then that"experience" goes deeper, and

(41:44):
deeper, and deeper.
And so, you said you named thissegment, this episode,"Where
Have All The Christians Gone?"Well, I would say-- why did they
go somewhere?
Why didn't they stay where theywere worshiping?
Or why did they never worship atall?

(42:06):
You know, there are many, manyprofessing Christians who don't
worship anywhere.
As we've already said, from thestatistics.
So, there's much that we couldsay there.

But let me say this (42:16):
When you've experienced the deeper walk of
Christianity, you're differentforever...
and you hunger for it forever...
and you want more of it forever.
And this is what we wanteverybody we know-- and that we
can contact-- to experience.

(42:37):
And this is why we're startingthis new podcast, and I'm
published this new book.

Manwell (42:43):
Absolutely.
And you will know them by theirlove.
It is an evolving, life-changingexperience.
And so, friends, there you haveit! This concludes today's
interview with the co-hosts ofChristian Family Online's new
podcast,"Saving Christianity."And this is a fascinating new
podcast, based on Spiritualprinciples in this amazing new

(43:04):
book,"Saving Christianity." Ithink all of you out there
listening to us will agree thatthis has been an unusual, and an
interesting interview.
I've read the book,"SavingChristianity" myself, and I was
just involved with it in itsreading.
So I'm looking forward tosubscribing to the"Saving
Christianity, podcast, so I canhear its unique episodes.

(43:25):
I hope you'll join me, andsubscribe to it as well.
Just pull up your favoritepodcast app, or open your
favorite podcast directory, andclick on the yellow logo with
the sign of the fish in it.
And by the way, while you're onthe internet, go to Amazon
books, or to the Barnes andnoble books website, and order a
copy of this book,"SavingChristianity." It's one of the

(43:48):
most inspiring books you willever read.
I personally have recommendedit, and sent links to so many of
my friends.
And best of all, you can useyour copy to read along with
Owen and John, as they d iscussthe amazing facts in the book
during the episodes of thepodcast.
And now, until our nextinterview together, this is
Manwell Grady, signing off formyself, O wen A llen, and John

(44:10):
Shields.
Goodbye from the three of us.
And we pray that in the future,each of your days will be m ore
S piritual than the day thatcame before it.
Manwell Grady ends theinterview.