January 5, 2021 • 40 mins
Christianity is in a crisis today. Millions are dropping out, hundreds of churches are closing, thousands of pastors leaving. The average Christian is now no more Spiritual than a non-Christian – the opposite of how it should be. This episode explains why this is happening and what to do about it.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
Episode 03 of the"SavingChristianity" podcast, brought
to you by the Christian FamilyOnline in America.
(00:23):
I'm your host, John Shields.
And in this episode, we're goingto continue talking about some
of the shocking facts in the newbook Saving Christianity-- the
book that tells us how to havemore peace, healing, and hope in
our lives, and the book thatgave this podcast its name.
(00:45):
We are so glad to be here,talking this morning about this
very important subject.
And we're especially thankfulthat you're taking the time to
listen to this podcast.
Our title today is"The FallingAway."(Repeats.) And you're
(01:06):
going to hear more facts aboutChristianity that you may never
have heard before.
But that's going to give youmore hope for the future.
Why?
Because you and I can't have thesame supernatural peace and
healing that the EarlyChristians had until we know why
(01:29):
they had those traits.
And more to the point, why somany Christians today don't have
those traits! But now, I want tointroduce my best friend and the
co- host of the"SavingChristianity" podcast, Owen
Allen.
Owen, would you like to say afew words to our friends?
Owen (01:49):
Yeah, John! Thank you so much! And it's a great pleasure
to be here again.
You know, I'm really enjoyingthese episodes because I love
talking about the book SavingChristianity.
And you know, John, I've reallybeen touched by how well the
book, and these episodes, arebeing received over the
(02:09):
internet, and among our friendsand contacts.
And so, I'm anxious to getstarted with this episode
because it just might be one ofthe most surprising and
disturbing episodes that we'vedone.
John (02:25):
I agree, Owen.
So let's just get right to oursubject.
Let's start telling our friendsabout the falling away that's
happening in today'sChristianity.
Owen (02:36):
Absolutely, John.
Because it's a horrible tragedythat most people probably are
not even aware is happening.
But let's sort of pick up andcontinue where we left off in
the previous episode.
And of course, just to remindour friends that if they want to
hear that previous episode, theycan do it by going to
(02:58):
www.CFOPODS.com-- that'sC-F-O-P-O-D-S.com-- on the
Internet.
And that's where they can findEpisode 02, which was our
previous episode.
But now, let's remind everybodythat in the previous episode, we
said that we wanted to talkabout what happened to the
(03:21):
ancient people who were calledthe"Followers of The Way." They
were the original members ofwhat we now call"Christianity,"
when it was founded.
And they're the ones who livesuch supernatural lives, that
they changed the entire worldSpiritually in only 70 years.
(03:41):
But remember John, as we closedlast time, we asked a couple of
interesting questions.
We said,"Are there any Followersof The Way still left?
Do they exist anywhere in theworld?
And if they do...
do any of them live in America?
And if they do...
do they still have thesupernatural peace, healing, and
(04:04):
hope, that the Christ-Followersoriginally had?"
John (04:08):
Yes, Owen, I remember those questions well.
And they're vitally importantquestions, too.
Owen (04:15):
Well, I think-- you know, John-- I think they're the most
important questions in life,from birth to death.
So let's start answering thosequestions though.
And just as sort of a warning,the answers we're about to give
can be painful.
They might be a little painfulto our friends who are
listening.
(04:35):
But, I like the old managementsaying that came from my years
as a management consultant.
It went like this:"Recognizing aproblem is half of its
solution!"(Repeats.) So, if wedon't even realize that a
(04:55):
problem is existing inChristianity today, we can't be
part of the solution to thatproblem! And that's the
situation many people are intoday.
They don't realize there's acrisis.
So they're not being part of thesolution.
John (05:12):
Yeah, that's very true.
Many people don't realize thatChristianity is in serious
trouble.
So let's give our friends somebackground on this crisis.
Owen (05:24):
Well...
maybe a good place to do that,John, as we're moving into
Chapter 2 of the book SavingChristianity, is just let me
read a fact from that.
Chapter 2 tells us that thepeople who were known in Early
Christian history as the"Followers of The Way" are now
(05:45):
today's interdenominationalChristians.
Let's repeat that.
The people who were known inEarly Christian history-- the
first three centuries of history-- as the"Followers of The Way,"
are what we call todaydenominational Christians.
(06:05):
And so, what does that mean inpractical terms?
(Chuckles.) The people sittingin the"pews"-- in quotes-- of
America's"church buildings"-- inquotes-- are the direct
descendants of the Followers ofThe Way in America, and in Early
Christian history.
So, If we ask our firstquestions:"Are there any
(06:28):
Followers of The Way alivetoday?
And, do any of them live inAmerica?" The answers to both
questions is,"Yes!"
John (06:37):
I bet that's something that most people have never
thought about.
Owen (06:41):
(Chuckles.) I bet so too, John.
But let's go ahead and answerour third question.
And it's a little moreunsettling.
This is where the pain starts.
Because we said:"Do any of theseFollowers of The Way-- these
denominational Christians todayin America-- have the same
(07:01):
supernatural peace, healing, andhope, that the original
Followers of The Way-- the EarlyChristians-- do they have that
same peace, healing, and hope?
And tragically, the answer is,that many don't! Maybe some do.
But a whole bunch don't! Andhere's why.
(07:25):
in Chapter 2 of the book SavingChristianity, we've got a
section with this title:"TheShrinkage of Christianity."
(Repeats.) And that section hassome incredible facts in it.
You might remember some ofthose, John.
(07:45):
But let's give the folks a few.
First(Point One), think aboutthis.
I was stunned the first time Iread this in a national survey.
An estimated two million-- twomillion with an"M"-- Christians
are dropping out of theChristian congregations-- the
(08:06):
Christian denominations-- eachand every year.
Can you imagine what wouldhappen to any organization...
the government...
the military...
anybody...
that was losing two millionmembers a year?
John (08:22):
Owen, I want to interject here just how fresh this is.
This morning I talked to someone, and they were telling me that
as some of the(Corona Viruspandemic) restrictions are being
eased, they are starting to meetagain.
And they are estimating thathalf of their congregation is
(08:44):
not going to return.
And some of those people--they're not assuming that--
they're actually telling themthat they're not coming back.
So, this is not ancient news.
This is today's news.
Owen (08:59):
It is, John! And I'll just throw in another personal story.
There's a congregation whereJoanna(Owen's wife) and I
worship frequently.
At one time, they had 450members.
I heard just last night, thatthey have reopened, and they
have counted 45 members.
(09:22):
And the pastor and the eldersare panicking.
They don't know if the rest ofthose people will come back.
And I'm afraid they won't.
And this is going to lead us toPoint Two, John.
Because of all these dropouts--two million a year-- an
estimated 4,000(repeats) churchbuildings are closing every year
(09:48):
because of low attendance.
And many of them are actuallybeing bulldozed and torn down.
Some are being converted to newuses.
They're becoming Seven-11s(quickshops) or something.
And quite frankly-- hold on toyour seatbelt-- many of them are
being converted into bars.
(10:11):
Can you imagine! Restaurants andlounges! And I'll just throw in
another personal story, John.
There was a local churchbuilding where we live, in the
area where we live, that was mywife's home congregation.
It's where she grew up andbecame a Christian and went to
(10:32):
Sunday school, and all of thosethings.
It was recently bulldozed.
And that site is now a parkinglot.
So this is what's happening.
When we talk about the"shrinkageof Christianity." These are real
facts.
John (10:48):
I think it's important, Owen, for our listeners to know
that this is not just somethingthat we've read in a book, or
we're quoting.
But these are things that evenin our own community, we're
seeing and experiencing.
Owen (11:03):
Yeah, and it's absolutely stunning.
And let's give them anotherscary one.
Because of all of theseChristian buildings being
bulldozed and closed.
Check this out(Point Three) (11:14):
An estimated 18,000 Christian
workers are leaving Christianwork each year for non-Christian
jobs.
In other words, these are people-- pastors, priests, chaplains,
choir leaders, youth leaders,missionaries, and all the rest--
(11:35):
(who) are giving up and takingsecular jobs as sales people, or
engineers, or whatever jobs theycan get.
John (11:45):
Those trends are a disaster on any level.
And I think that most Christianssense, at least my observation
is, that something is wrong inChristianity today.
But I don't think many realizethat it's just that bad.
Owen (12:03):
Well, I know.
I mean, and I feel the same way.
And the bad news is, it getsworse! Because think about this
now.
Let's go to the logical(Point)Four: The bigger problem is that
because of these negative trendsin Christianity...
America as a nation isdeveloping a non-Christian
(12:27):
culture.
I doubt many people would arguewith that-- a non-Christian
culture.
How do we know?
Well, all we have to do is surfTV or the Internet for a few
minutes.
We will see more crime,violence, profanity, nudity,
vulgarity-- openly and proudlydisplayed-- than at any time in
(12:49):
U.S.
history! John, a lot of ourlisteners won't know this, but I
can remember a time,"in the goodold days," when if somebody said
something even slightlyoff-color on radio or TV, the
screen immediately went blackand they were cut off.
That's not done anymore! You cansay, and do, and show, anything
(13:13):
on TV(and radio) now-- proudlyand openly-- and nobody cuts you
off.
John (13:18):
Right, and typically the worst it is, the better people
like it.
(Laughter.) So we can, I think,safely reach the conclusion that
a lot of the violence andprofanity in public today(are) a
direct result of Christiansdropping out of congregations...
(13:39):
of church buildings being closed...
and pastors and priests movingto non-Christian jobs.
Owen (13:48):
Well, I think that's right, John.
That's what the national surveysshow.
Several best-selling books havebeen written about that.
And here's what scares me alittle bit.
Or actually, turns my stomach.
People are saying that thisviolence and profanity that
we're talking about is the"NewNormal" in America.
Think about that.
(14:09):
The"New Normal." This is whatour children and grandchildren
are going to think is"normal."And here's the point: This
unspiritual behavior-- as youjust said-- but I want to repeat
it, is a direct result of thedecline of Christianity in
America.
(14:30):
You know, we were taught inmanagement to-- if you had a
problem-- look for what changedin, about, or around, the
timeframe and position of thatproblem: And you'd find the
cause.
Okay, ask yourself (14:44):
In recent decades, what has changed in
America that could produce this"New Normal"?
And the only big thing that h aschanged...
consistently on a downtrendstarting back in about 1950...
has been the decline ofChristianity in America.
(15:06):
So, at least in part, all ofthat's due to the shrinkage of
Christianity.
And think about this, John.
If you take any group of peopleanywhere in the world-- as they
become less Spiritual--violence, selfishness,(and)
(15:26):
profanity increase in thatgroup.
Isn't that logical?
John (15:31):
Oh, yeah, it absolutely makes sense.
And I think our listeners aregetting a window into a sense of
the urgency of our podcast, andwhat motivated us to even be
doing this.
But does all of this mean, Owen,that American Christians are
becoming less Spiritual?
(15:52):
Now...
we know that many are droppingout of their congregations.
But does that also mean thatthey're actually becoming less
Spiritual?
Owen (16:01):
Well, sadly again, John.
I hate to keep repeating myself.
But that's what the surveys--and a recent best-selling book--
are saying.
That's an explosive question.
The answer is explosive too.
Because, as catastrophic as itmay be, I think the answer is,
"Yes." Every poll, survey, andinterview, shows that, as a
(16:26):
group, Christians are becomingless Spiritual.
Obviously, they're individualChristians.
Probably many(are) listening tous now...
in their car...
in their kitchen...
and their living room...
wherever they are.
But as a group, on an average,Christians are becoming less
(16:47):
Spiritual.
Think about it.
If you quit associating withother Christians, if you quit
going to Christian classes,reading Christian books, even
reading the Bible, even praying-- and these are a lot of the
things that these dropouts aredoing-- what's going to happen?
The end result is lessSpirituality.
(17:09):
And that's why, John, if you goback and listen to Episodes 01
and 02, we said this principleover and over.
And I quote:"The averageChristian today is no more
Spiritual than a non-Christian."
John (17:26):
Yeah, and every time, Owen, I hear that...
we've said it several times...
"shocking" is, I think, theright word! Our friends are
going to remember that principlefrom previous episodes.
Owen (17:41):
And it makes anybody cringe, really, to say it.
I resent having to say it.
But let's ask, John, a deeperquestion.
What does it mean when we say,"Christians are no more
Spiritual than non-Christians?"What does that look like in
(18:02):
everyday life?
John (18:03):
Yeah, I'm not sure I want to know the answer! But it's a
critical question.
What do unspiritual Christianslook like in everyday life?
Owen (18:15):
So...
let's think about it.
What would you think they wouldlook like?
And let's quote a few pointsfrom the book...
Chapter 2, of the book...
Saving Christianity.
Actually, John, there are twointeresting sections in Chapter
2, that I think our friends whoare listening would want to
refer to.
(18:35):
One section is called,"Today'sUnspiritual Christians." And the
second section of that chapteris titled,"The SuperChristian."
(Repeats.) And these twosections have some shocking,
very disturbing facts.
(18:56):
I mean, you can't read thesewithout staying awake at night.
Let's just give our friends acouple of points to illustrate.
Number one (19:06):
National polls show that many gangsters,
prostitutes, child molesters,pornographers, and alcoholics,
say that they're Christians.
Here's an example.
In one survey, 40% of the drugdealers who were surveyed-- drug
(19:29):
dealers!-- said they wereChristians, and were active in a
Christian congregation.
Here's another one, John.
Most people have heard this one,I'm sure, on radio and TV.
But the Christian divorce ratein most counties and states is
(19:50):
the same as the non-Christiandivorce rate.
And one final point here.
Just a couple more ideas.
In the book, we've got the storyof a Christian who got angry at
a deacon's meeting.
So he just shot the otherdeacons.
(20:13):
There's another story about aChristian who robbed banks.
And, when he was arrested andbrought before the judge, he
said he did it to pay for hisprostitutes.
There's another story about aChristian who was married and
divorced 28 times.
And by the way, he was anordained pastor.
(20:35):
And finally, just quickly, astory about a Christian-- he was
one we called"SuperChristian"--who internationally traveled and
spoke.
In fact, he's in the GuinnessBook of World Records.
It turned out that for 22 years,he had molested children during
his travels.
(20:56):
Finally, the FBI tracked himdown and arrested him.
And there are many more storieslike this, John.
That we list, or we document, inthe book, Saving Christianity.
John (21:11):
Yeah, simply appalling, to put it lightly, and stunning.
Owen (21:16):
(Chuckles.) Well...
they(these stories) aresickening.
They're outrageous.
But they also help explain whyAmerica is developing a
non-Christian culture.
It's because many AmericanChristians are unspiritual.
And John, let me say, this isnot a bad thing.
(21:37):
This is a good thing.
Because this podcast, and whatwe're dedicated to doing, is
showing Christians-- whether ornot they attend a denomination--
how to get back to theSpirituality of the First
Century.
John (21:56):
Yeah, Owen.
Once we get over the shock ofsome of these examples--
something that we've had ourhands in for many years now...
and know the answer to...
but our friends need to know WHYChristians are so unspiritual
(22:17):
today.
Owen (22:18):
Yeah, you know-- why is this happening?
Why is this horrible thinghappening?
And happily, or fortunately,there's another section in our
book with the title,"WhyChristians Are Unspiritual."
(Repeats.) And we're just urgingall of our friends who are
(22:39):
listening to read that section.
But let me say this.
What we have in that section issort of a Problem-Solving
Exercise of the type that I usedto do when I was a management
consultant.
And it explains why Christiansare unspiritual.
But you know, John, our time'slimited here in this episode.
(23:02):
So I don't think we could gothrough that entire
Problem-Solving Exercise here inthe episode.
So instead, let's let ourfriends read that for themselves
in their copy of the book.
But, here in the episode, let'ssummarize that exercise this
(23:24):
way.
Here we go.
Here's the answer (23:26):
Many Christians are unspiritual
because they attend, or theyused to attend before they
dropped out, congregations--hang on-- that don't teach the
"Early Christian Lifestyle." Inother words, they attend, or
(23:46):
used to attend, congregationsthat don't teach Spiritual
living the way the EarlyChristians taught it.
John (23:56):
That is so important, Owen.
I don't think we can evenover-emphasize that.
But it's devastating.
Owen (24:03):
I would say"devastating" is the right word.
I mean, we're talking about--how can you express it-- global
disasters here, John.
But let's prove this, okay?
Let's don't just throw(out)ideas and opinions.
We're talking documented factshere.
(24:25):
So, let's prove thatcongregations aren't teaching
Spiritual living today.
Let me read what the nationalpolls say about it.
This is why the national polls,Gallup and Pew and others, say
this is the reason whyChristians are dropping out of
congregations, becomingunspiritual, and starting to
(24:47):
live like non-Christians.
And let me quote a few linesfrom the book, Chapter 2, of
Saving Christianity.
And I quote:"Christians aredropping out of their
congregations because attendingthose congregations is not
rewarding.
Attending those congregations isnot changing their lives for the
(25:12):
better.
Attending today's congregationsis not the experience of love,
joy, healings, visions, andmiracles, that it was for the
Followers of The Way.
For many Christians today, theprograms of their congregations
are the opposite-- the opposite-- of the wonderful experience
(25:36):
that the original Christiansenjoyed in those early years.
Instead, national polls showthat many Christians today feel
that the programs in theircongregation are-- count it off
-- irrelevant, boring, andhypocritical."
John (25:55):
Yeah.
Ouch.
That quote really hurts.
But at the same time, I have afeeling that our listeners,
wherever they are listeningfrom, are nodding their head in
agreement.
Owen (26:09):
I think so too.
And John, I want to saysomething.
There was one very famous pollthat was done that showed-- and
this was of active Christianswho were actively attending
congregations-- they wereinterviewed by pollsters.
And guess what the result was?
(26:30):
Half-- half of the Christianswho walk out of Sunday morning
services-- walk out moredepressed than they were when
they went in.
And that's why attendance isfalling off, and Christians are
throwing in the towel, andstarting to live like
(26:53):
non-Christians.
John (26:56):
Yeah, I'm sure those experiences are ringing true for
a lot of our friends who arelistening.
Owen (27:02):
Yeah.
But you know, now we've arrivedat a huge problem that's
connected to everything thatwe've been saying, John.
And here's that huge problem: Many Christians think that what (27:11):
undefined
they see-- that what theyexperience-- in their Sunday
morning worship services is--"IS"-- is Christianity.
In other words, they go to theseboring, hypocritical services,
(27:32):
and they sit there, and theylook at what's going on, and
they say,"Well, this isChristianity, and I just don't
see anything to it!"
John (27:41):
Yeah.
I'm afraid, Owen, that littleworn out cliche' that's been
around now for a few yearsprobably:"Been There, Done
That," is applicable here.
Owen (27:51):
( Laughter.) And didn't like it, right?
So, well, let's explain thatwith a few more lines from
Saving Christianity.
And it goes like this:"Millionsof Christians have dropped out
of Christian congregationsbecause they thought those
congregations were--'WERE'--Christianity.
(28:16):
The services, rituals, andprograms, that they saw were the
only Christianity they'd everseen.
And since'THAT'-- in quotes--Christianity didn't meet their
needs, they gave up and droppedout of what they thought was
'Christianity.' And they startedliving non-religious lives."
John (28:37):
So the problem was that the dropouts...
we can say...
they never saw the originaltemplate of the Christian
lifestyle.
They never saw the EarlyChristian Lifestyle lived out
the way the first Christianslived.
Owen (28:54):
Well, that's totally correct.
And let's turn that cart around,and look at it backwards, John.
What do you think would happenif Christians today and
encountered an actual Christianwho was living the First Century
lifestyle-- was walking in thepresence of angels and Spiritual
power?
Do you think they'd be bored anddisappointed with that?
(29:17):
I don't think so!(Chuckles.) So,the real tragedy, John, with all
this, is that people-- if Icould put it this way-- are
dropping out of the wrongChristianity! They've never had
a chance to see originalChristianity, and see if they
liked it.
Or, to put it another way, theydropped out of their
(29:39):
congregation because they didn'tsee real Christianity in action
in that congregation.
John (29:48):
Whoa, I bet a lot of our friends have never thought about
it quite that way.
Owen (29:53):
Well, probably not! But remember this, John.
What we're saying-- and this isreally sad-- about this
misunderstanding of what"IS"real Christianity: It applies
not only to the dropouts, but(also) to Christians who are
still in their congregations.
(30:13):
Some of these that we mentionedearlier...
the 45 that I mentioned thathave come back...
many of them were puzzled andconfused and-- sadly-- they feel
guilty.
They feel guilty because theprograms in their congregation
aren't satisfying them.
They don't know why.
(30:34):
And they're making the samemistake that the dropouts are
making.
They're thinking the boringprograms that they're seeing
"ARE" Christianity.
And that this is the only"Christianity" there is.
And they give up.
But-- how can we say this loudlyenough-- those hypocritical,
boring programs are not the onlyChristianity there is.
(31:01):
Now, they are one DESIGN ofChristianity.
Because we're going to talkabout Organizational Design a
lot.
They're, one DESIGN ofChristianity.
But, they're not the design thatthe Followers of The Way used in
their day!
John (31:19):
Hmmm.
Okay.
So, that's a mess, Owen.
Owen (31:24):
Yeah, I think that word fits well.
It is a"mess." But, here's someGood News, John.
Now we have-- and our friendslistening have-- a basic
principle of Christianity nowthat we can talk about and
discuss.
Because in the previousepisodes, we talked about the
(31:49):
"two different Christianlifestyles" that appear in
history.
I mean, we talked about that inthe previous episode.
The First Lifestyle, is thatSpiritual lifestyle that the
Early Christians lived.
And the Second Lifestyle, is theunspiritual lifestyle that many
Christians are living today.
(32:11):
And you can compare those, andsee the differences.
John (32:15):
Yes, I hope everyone remembers that earlier
comparison of those twoChristian lifestyles.
Owen (32:22):
Well, me too! But remember, these lifestyles are
in conflict.
They're in opposition.
And so, that gives us somethingto think about.
There must be something inhistory that caused these two
different lifestyles.
You know (32:39):
Where did the unspiritual lifestyle come from?
Why did the Spiritual lifestyleend?
Think about that.
These two different designs forthe structure of Christian
congregations (32:53):
One design Spiritual.
One design unspiritual.
Where did they come from?
John (33:01):
Hmmm.
So wow! So, you're saying thattoday's Christian congregations
are built on one of those twodifferent designs.
Owen (33:10):
Absolutely.
I think we can all agree onthis.
And here's what that means (33:13):
The cause of all the trouble in
today's Christianity-- we'rerepeating a little bit here, but
let's do it-- is that manyChristian congregations are
based on that unspiritualdesign.
They're not based on theSpiritual design
John (33:35):
And that is incredibly important.
But what here...
this is what I like...
what can be done about it?
Because most congregations wouldbe unwilling to change their
structure.
Owen (33:49):
That's right! They're totally unwilling.
They would go down in flamesfirst.
And that's sad, but true.
But you know, human nature issuch-- habits have such a hold
on us-- that they're almostimpossible to change.
So, many congregations areunwilling, or unable, to change.
But there is a solution.
(34:10):
And that's one reason for thispodcast! There is something
Christians can do.
And let me read a few lines fromSaving Christianity that
explains that.
And I quote:"If we comparetoday's Christian services,
rituals, and programs, to theEarly Christian Lifestyle of
(34:31):
Spiritual living, the two areentirely different.
But, the Good News is that thetwo styles are not mutually
exclusive.
They can co-exist.
They can operate at the sametime.
In other words, today'sChristians can live-- could live
(34:54):
-- the early Christianlifestyle, whether or not they
attend a traditionalcongregation.
They can live it if they do.
They can live it if they don't.
And that's why this book waswritten.
It was written to show thedifference between these two
lifestyles, and to show thattoday's Christians can...
(35:18):
(there's a little a nurseryrhyme, I-think-I-can,
I-think-I-can, I-can!)...
today's Christians can have morepeace, hope, miracles, and
supernatural living-- regardlessof whether or not they're active
in a traditional congregation."
John (35:38):
And we've actually mapped out(what) we're going to cover
in the future episodes of thispodcast.
We're going to answer three bigquestions.
Owen (35:47):
Right! Three big questions in future episodes! And here
they are.
First (35:52):
Where did the Unspiritual Design for Christian
congregations come from?
Second (35:59):
What are the details of the Spiritual Design-- the
design that we're calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle"?
And third (36:09):
How can today's Christians start living that
Spiritual Design...
the one that we're calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle"?
John (36:21):
Yeah, I think those three questions are so important...
so important that their impacton our lives can't be
overstated.
Owen (36:29):
I think that's true.
I mean, you know, one of thethings that we talk about so
much, John, is this issue ofexperience.
Most Christians have neverexperienced the Early Christian
Lifestyle.
They've not experienced themiraculous walk-- the
supernatural walk-- that theEarly Christians lived.
(36:54):
And you know, you can'tunderstand it until you try it.
You can't understand that untilyou've experienced it.
John (37:01):
Yeah, and so that's why we're producing these episodes--
to help us, to help people,rediscover that supernatural
peace, and healing, and hope,that the early Christians had.
Owen (37:15):
Amen, totally true! Well, again John, I always hate to say
it.
But the big clock on the wall istelling me that it's time to
close Episode 03.
So let's just tell our friends...
wherever they are...
wherever they're listening...
that we're going to cover in thenext episode, some very exciting
(37:37):
things.
And I want to read a fewsentences from the end of
Chapter 2 of Saving Christianityto prove that.
John (37:44):
Yeah, what sentences are you referring to, Owen?
Owen (37:48):
Well, I'll tell you, let's read the last paragraph of that
chapter.
And I think it'll give ourfriends a hint, a sense, of
what's coming, in our nextepisode.
And it's this.
Quote:"In the next episode,we're going to return to our
discussion of theProblem-Solving Exercise that we
(38:10):
were working on earlier.
We're going to return to thatnow, and we're going to talk
about, and explain, anddescribe, when, where, and why,
in history, Christians stoppedliving the Early Christian
Lifestyle of supernatural powerand miracles." So-- we're going
(38:34):
to start answering these threequestions in a big and exciting
way.
And talk about where thatUnspiritual Design of Christian
congregations came from.
And I think that as we close,John, all of us: You, Me, our
Listeners, our Producer--everybody-- should be asking
(38:57):
some serious questions.
For example, which design ofChristianity is my life based
on?
The Spiritual Design?
Or the Unspiritual Design?
If I'm a member of acongregation, which design of
Christianity is it based on?
(39:18):
The Spiritual Design?
Or the Unspiritual Design?
John (39:21):
Yes, and Episode 04 is going to be a great help in
answering those questions.
Because it's going to tell uswhere the Unspiritual Design
came from, right?
Owen (39:32):
So, remember, my friends, that this is Episode 03 in our
podcast, and a script and arecording for it are on the
Christian Family Online inAmerica website.
But simply, to get to that,navigate to www.CFOPODS.com on
(39:54):
the Internet.
C-F-O-P-O-D-S.com on theInternet.
John (39:59):
Yes, and please subscribe to this podcast so you'll get
the notifications for ourepisodes, specifically, our next
one-- Number 04-- and the restof the upcoming episodes.
Owen (40:11):
Roger that! And don't forget to grab a copy of Saving
Christianity, so you can followalong, and review and study,
these important principles.
John (40:20):
Yeah, that is important.
Because there are many morefacts in the book than we're
able to cover in these shortepisodes.
Owen (40:29):
Absolutely true! But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (40:33):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf
saying...
Owen (40:39):
...
may the God of our fathers blessyou, and keep you, and guide
you, and protect you, until wemeet again.
Owen and John (40:58):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
Episode 03 of the"SavingChristianity" podcast, brought
to you by the Christian FamilyOnline in America.
(00:23):
I'm your host, John Shields.
And in this episode, we're goingto continue talking about some
of the shocking facts in the newbook Saving Christianity-- the
book that tells us how to havemore peace, healing, and hope in
our lives, and the book thatgave this podcast its name.
(00:45):
We are so glad to be here,talking this morning about this
very important subject.
And we're especially thankfulthat you're taking the time to
listen to this podcast.
Our title today is"The FallingAway."(Repeats.) And you're
(01:06):
going to hear more facts aboutChristianity that you may never
have heard before.
But that's going to give youmore hope for the future.
Why?
Because you and I can't have thesame supernatural peace and
healing that the EarlyChristians had until we know why
(01:29):
they had those traits.
And more to the point, why somany Christians today don't have
those traits! But now, I want tointroduce my best friend and the
co- host of the"SavingChristianity" podcast, Owen
Allen.
Owen, would you like to say afew words to our friends?
Owen (01:49):
Yeah, John! Thank you so much! And it's a great pleasure
to be here again.
You know, I'm really enjoyingthese episodes because I love
talking about the book SavingChristianity.
And you know, John, I've reallybeen touched by how well the
book, and these episodes, arebeing received over the
(02:09):
internet, and among our friendsand contacts.
And so, I'm anxious to getstarted with this episode
because it just might be one ofthe most surprising and
disturbing episodes that we'vedone.
John (02:25):
I agree, Owen.
So let's just get right to oursubject.
Let's start telling our friendsabout the falling away that's
happening in today'sChristianity.
Owen (02:36):
Absolutely, John.
Because it's a horrible tragedythat most people probably are
not even aware is happening.
But let's sort of pick up andcontinue where we left off in
the previous episode.
And of course, just to remindour friends that if they want to
hear that previous episode, theycan do it by going to
(02:58):
www.CFOPODS.com-- that'sC-F-O-P-O-D-S.com-- on the
Internet.
And that's where they can findEpisode 02, which was our
previous episode.
But now, let's remind everybodythat in the previous episode, we
said that we wanted to talkabout what happened to the
(03:21):
ancient people who were calledthe"Followers of The Way." They
were the original members ofwhat we now call"Christianity,"
when it was founded.
And they're the ones who livesuch supernatural lives, that
they changed the entire worldSpiritually in only 70 years.
(03:41):
But remember John, as we closedlast time, we asked a couple of
interesting questions.
We said,"Are there any Followersof The Way still left?
Do they exist anywhere in theworld?
And if they do...
do any of them live in America?
And if they do...
do they still have thesupernatural peace, healing, and
(04:04):
hope, that the Christ-Followersoriginally had?"
John (04:08):
Yes, Owen, I remember those questions well.
And they're vitally importantquestions, too.
Owen (04:15):
Well, I think-- you know, John-- I think they're the most
important questions in life,from birth to death.
So let's start answering thosequestions though.
And just as sort of a warning,the answers we're about to give
can be painful.
They might be a little painfulto our friends who are
listening.
(04:35):
But, I like the old managementsaying that came from my years
as a management consultant.
It went like this:"Recognizing aproblem is half of its
solution!"(Repeats.) So, if wedon't even realize that a
(04:55):
problem is existing inChristianity today, we can't be
part of the solution to thatproblem! And that's the
situation many people are intoday.
They don't realize there's acrisis.
So they're not being part of thesolution.
John (05:12):
Yeah, that's very true.
Many people don't realize thatChristianity is in serious
trouble.
So let's give our friends somebackground on this crisis.
Owen (05:24):
Well...
maybe a good place to do that,John, as we're moving into
Chapter 2 of the book SavingChristianity, is just let me
read a fact from that.
Chapter 2 tells us that thepeople who were known in Early
Christian history as the"Followers of The Way" are now
(05:45):
today's interdenominationalChristians.
Let's repeat that.
The people who were known inEarly Christian history-- the
first three centuries of history-- as the"Followers of The Way,"
are what we call todaydenominational Christians.
(06:05):
And so, what does that mean inpractical terms?
(Chuckles.) The people sittingin the"pews"-- in quotes-- of
America's"church buildings"-- inquotes-- are the direct
descendants of the Followers ofThe Way in America, and in Early
Christian history.
So, If we ask our firstquestions:"Are there any
(06:28):
Followers of The Way alivetoday?
And, do any of them live inAmerica?" The answers to both
questions is,"Yes!"
John (06:37):
I bet that's something that most people have never
thought about.
Owen (06:41):
(Chuckles.) I bet so too, John.
But let's go ahead and answerour third question.
And it's a little moreunsettling.
This is where the pain starts.
Because we said:"Do any of theseFollowers of The Way-- these
denominational Christians todayin America-- have the same
(07:01):
supernatural peace, healing, andhope, that the original
Followers of The Way-- the EarlyChristians-- do they have that
same peace, healing, and hope?
And tragically, the answer is,that many don't! Maybe some do.
But a whole bunch don't! Andhere's why.
(07:25):
in Chapter 2 of the book SavingChristianity, we've got a
section with this title:"TheShrinkage of Christianity."
(Repeats.) And that section hassome incredible facts in it.
You might remember some ofthose, John.
(07:45):
But let's give the folks a few.
First(Point One), think aboutthis.
I was stunned the first time Iread this in a national survey.
An estimated two million-- twomillion with an"M"-- Christians
are dropping out of theChristian congregations-- the
(08:06):
Christian denominations-- eachand every year.
Can you imagine what wouldhappen to any organization...
the government...
the military...
anybody...
that was losing two millionmembers a year?
John (08:22):
Owen, I want to interject here just how fresh this is.
This morning I talked to someone, and they were telling me that
as some of the(Corona Viruspandemic) restrictions are being
eased, they are starting to meetagain.
And they are estimating thathalf of their congregation is
(08:44):
not going to return.
And some of those people--they're not assuming that--
they're actually telling themthat they're not coming back.
So, this is not ancient news.
This is today's news.
Owen (08:59):
It is, John! And I'll just throw in another personal story.
There's a congregation whereJoanna(Owen's wife) and I
worship frequently.
At one time, they had 450members.
I heard just last night, thatthey have reopened, and they
have counted 45 members.
(09:22):
And the pastor and the eldersare panicking.
They don't know if the rest ofthose people will come back.
And I'm afraid they won't.
And this is going to lead us toPoint Two, John.
Because of all these dropouts--two million a year-- an
estimated 4,000(repeats) churchbuildings are closing every year
(09:48):
because of low attendance.
And many of them are actuallybeing bulldozed and torn down.
Some are being converted to newuses.
They're becoming Seven-11s(quickshops) or something.
And quite frankly-- hold on toyour seatbelt-- many of them are
being converted into bars.
(10:11):
Can you imagine! Restaurants andlounges! And I'll just throw in
another personal story, John.
There was a local churchbuilding where we live, in the
area where we live, that was mywife's home congregation.
It's where she grew up andbecame a Christian and went to
(10:32):
Sunday school, and all of thosethings.
It was recently bulldozed.
And that site is now a parkinglot.
So this is what's happening.
When we talk about the"shrinkageof Christianity." These are real
facts.
John (10:48):
I think it's important, Owen, for our listeners to know
that this is not just somethingthat we've read in a book, or
we're quoting.
But these are things that evenin our own community, we're
seeing and experiencing.
Owen (11:03):
Yeah, and it's absolutely stunning.
And let's give them anotherscary one.
Because of all of theseChristian buildings being
bulldozed and closed.
Check this out(Point Three) (11:14):
An estimated 18,000 Christian
workers are leaving Christianwork each year for non-Christian
jobs.
In other words, these are people-- pastors, priests, chaplains,
choir leaders, youth leaders,missionaries, and all the rest--
(11:35):
(who) are giving up and takingsecular jobs as sales people, or
engineers, or whatever jobs theycan get.
John (11:45):
Those trends are a disaster on any level.
And I think that most Christianssense, at least my observation
is, that something is wrong inChristianity today.
But I don't think many realizethat it's just that bad.
Owen (12:03):
Well, I know.
I mean, and I feel the same way.
And the bad news is, it getsworse! Because think about this
now.
Let's go to the logical(Point)Four: The bigger problem is that
because of these negative trendsin Christianity...
America as a nation isdeveloping a non-Christian
(12:27):
culture.
I doubt many people would arguewith that-- a non-Christian
culture.
How do we know?
Well, all we have to do is surfTV or the Internet for a few
minutes.
We will see more crime,violence, profanity, nudity,
vulgarity-- openly and proudlydisplayed-- than at any time in
(12:49):
U.S.
history! John, a lot of ourlisteners won't know this, but I
can remember a time,"in the goodold days," when if somebody said
something even slightlyoff-color on radio or TV, the
screen immediately went blackand they were cut off.
That's not done anymore! You cansay, and do, and show, anything
(13:13):
on TV(and radio) now-- proudlyand openly-- and nobody cuts you
off.
John (13:18):
Right, and typically the worst it is, the better people
like it.
(Laughter.) So we can, I think,safely reach the conclusion that
a lot of the violence andprofanity in public today(are) a
direct result of Christiansdropping out of congregations...
(13:39):
of church buildings being closed...
and pastors and priests movingto non-Christian jobs.
Owen (13:48):
Well, I think that's right, John.
That's what the national surveysshow.
Several best-selling books havebeen written about that.
And here's what scares me alittle bit.
Or actually, turns my stomach.
People are saying that thisviolence and profanity that
we're talking about is the"NewNormal" in America.
Think about that.
(14:09):
The"New Normal." This is whatour children and grandchildren
are going to think is"normal."And here's the point: This
unspiritual behavior-- as youjust said-- but I want to repeat
it, is a direct result of thedecline of Christianity in
America.
(14:30):
You know, we were taught inmanagement to-- if you had a
problem-- look for what changedin, about, or around, the
timeframe and position of thatproblem: And you'd find the
cause.
Okay, ask yourself (14:44):
In recent decades, what has changed in
America that could produce this"New Normal"?
And the only big thing that h aschanged...
consistently on a downtrendstarting back in about 1950...
has been the decline ofChristianity in America.
(15:06):
So, at least in part, all ofthat's due to the shrinkage of
Christianity.
And think about this, John.
If you take any group of peopleanywhere in the world-- as they
become less Spiritual--violence, selfishness,(and)
(15:26):
profanity increase in thatgroup.
Isn't that logical?
John (15:31):
Oh, yeah, it absolutely makes sense.
And I think our listeners aregetting a window into a sense of
the urgency of our podcast, andwhat motivated us to even be
doing this.
But does all of this mean, Owen,that American Christians are
becoming less Spiritual?
(15:52):
Now...
we know that many are droppingout of their congregations.
But does that also mean thatthey're actually becoming less
Spiritual?
Owen (16:01):
Well, sadly again, John.
I hate to keep repeating myself.
But that's what the surveys--and a recent best-selling book--
are saying.
That's an explosive question.
The answer is explosive too.
Because, as catastrophic as itmay be, I think the answer is,
"Yes." Every poll, survey, andinterview, shows that, as a
(16:26):
group, Christians are becomingless Spiritual.
Obviously, they're individualChristians.
Probably many(are) listening tous now...
in their car...
in their kitchen...
and their living room...
wherever they are.
But as a group, on an average,Christians are becoming less
(16:47):
Spiritual.
Think about it.
If you quit associating withother Christians, if you quit
going to Christian classes,reading Christian books, even
reading the Bible, even praying-- and these are a lot of the
things that these dropouts aredoing-- what's going to happen?
The end result is lessSpirituality.
(17:09):
And that's why, John, if you goback and listen to Episodes 01
and 02, we said this principleover and over.
And I quote:"The averageChristian today is no more
Spiritual than a non-Christian."
John (17:26):
Yeah, and every time, Owen, I hear that...
we've said it several times...
"shocking" is, I think, theright word! Our friends are
going to remember that principlefrom previous episodes.
Owen (17:41):
And it makes anybody cringe, really, to say it.
I resent having to say it.
But let's ask, John, a deeperquestion.
What does it mean when we say,"Christians are no more
Spiritual than non-Christians?"What does that look like in
(18:02):
everyday life?
John (18:03):
Yeah, I'm not sure I want to know the answer! But it's a
critical question.
What do unspiritual Christianslook like in everyday life?
Owen (18:15):
So...
let's think about it.
What would you think they wouldlook like?
And let's quote a few pointsfrom the book...
Chapter 2, of the book...
Saving Christianity.
Actually, John, there are twointeresting sections in Chapter
2, that I think our friends whoare listening would want to
refer to.
(18:35):
One section is called,"Today'sUnspiritual Christians." And the
second section of that chapteris titled,"The SuperChristian."
(Repeats.) And these twosections have some shocking,
very disturbing facts.
(18:56):
I mean, you can't read thesewithout staying awake at night.
Let's just give our friends acouple of points to illustrate.
Number one (19:06):
National polls show that many gangsters,
prostitutes, child molesters,pornographers, and alcoholics,
say that they're Christians.
Here's an example.
In one survey, 40% of the drugdealers who were surveyed-- drug
(19:29):
dealers!-- said they wereChristians, and were active in a
Christian congregation.
Here's another one, John.
Most people have heard this one,I'm sure, on radio and TV.
But the Christian divorce ratein most counties and states is
(19:50):
the same as the non-Christiandivorce rate.
And one final point here.
Just a couple more ideas.
In the book, we've got the storyof a Christian who got angry at
a deacon's meeting.
So he just shot the otherdeacons.
(20:13):
There's another story about aChristian who robbed banks.
And, when he was arrested andbrought before the judge, he
said he did it to pay for hisprostitutes.
There's another story about aChristian who was married and
divorced 28 times.
And by the way, he was anordained pastor.
(20:35):
And finally, just quickly, astory about a Christian-- he was
one we called"SuperChristian"--who internationally traveled and
spoke.
In fact, he's in the GuinnessBook of World Records.
It turned out that for 22 years,he had molested children during
his travels.
(20:56):
Finally, the FBI tracked himdown and arrested him.
And there are many more storieslike this, John.
That we list, or we document, inthe book, Saving Christianity.
John (21:11):
Yeah, simply appalling, to put it lightly, and stunning.
Owen (21:16):
(Chuckles.) Well...
they(these stories) aresickening.
They're outrageous.
But they also help explain whyAmerica is developing a
non-Christian culture.
It's because many AmericanChristians are unspiritual.
And John, let me say, this isnot a bad thing.
(21:37):
This is a good thing.
Because this podcast, and whatwe're dedicated to doing, is
showing Christians-- whether ornot they attend a denomination--
how to get back to theSpirituality of the First
Century.
John (21:56):
Yeah, Owen.
Once we get over the shock ofsome of these examples--
something that we've had ourhands in for many years now...
and know the answer to...
but our friends need to know WHYChristians are so unspiritual
(22:17):
today.
Owen (22:18):
Yeah, you know-- why is this happening?
Why is this horrible thinghappening?
And happily, or fortunately,there's another section in our
book with the title,"WhyChristians Are Unspiritual."
(Repeats.) And we're just urgingall of our friends who are
(22:39):
listening to read that section.
But let me say this.
What we have in that section issort of a Problem-Solving
Exercise of the type that I usedto do when I was a management
consultant.
And it explains why Christiansare unspiritual.
But you know, John, our time'slimited here in this episode.
(23:02):
So I don't think we could gothrough that entire
Problem-Solving Exercise here inthe episode.
So instead, let's let ourfriends read that for themselves
in their copy of the book.
But, here in the episode, let'ssummarize that exercise this
(23:24):
way.
Here we go.
Here's the answer (23:26):
Many Christians are unspiritual
because they attend, or theyused to attend before they
dropped out, congregations--hang on-- that don't teach the
"Early Christian Lifestyle." Inother words, they attend, or
(23:46):
used to attend, congregationsthat don't teach Spiritual
living the way the EarlyChristians taught it.
John (23:56):
That is so important, Owen.
I don't think we can evenover-emphasize that.
But it's devastating.
Owen (24:03):
I would say"devastating" is the right word.
I mean, we're talking about--how can you express it-- global
disasters here, John.
But let's prove this, okay?
Let's don't just throw(out)ideas and opinions.
We're talking documented factshere.
(24:25):
So, let's prove thatcongregations aren't teaching
Spiritual living today.
Let me read what the nationalpolls say about it.
This is why the national polls,Gallup and Pew and others, say
this is the reason whyChristians are dropping out of
congregations, becomingunspiritual, and starting to
(24:47):
live like non-Christians.
And let me quote a few linesfrom the book, Chapter 2, of
Saving Christianity.
And I quote:"Christians aredropping out of their
congregations because attendingthose congregations is not
rewarding.
Attending those congregations isnot changing their lives for the
(25:12):
better.
Attending today's congregationsis not the experience of love,
joy, healings, visions, andmiracles, that it was for the
Followers of The Way.
For many Christians today, theprograms of their congregations
are the opposite-- the opposite-- of the wonderful experience
(25:36):
that the original Christiansenjoyed in those early years.
Instead, national polls showthat many Christians today feel
that the programs in theircongregation are-- count it off
-- irrelevant, boring, andhypocritical."
John (25:55):
Yeah.
Ouch.
That quote really hurts.
But at the same time, I have afeeling that our listeners,
wherever they are listeningfrom, are nodding their head in
agreement.
Owen (26:09):
I think so too.
And John, I want to saysomething.
There was one very famous pollthat was done that showed-- and
this was of active Christianswho were actively attending
congregations-- they wereinterviewed by pollsters.
And guess what the result was?
(26:30):
Half-- half of the Christianswho walk out of Sunday morning
services-- walk out moredepressed than they were when
they went in.
And that's why attendance isfalling off, and Christians are
throwing in the towel, andstarting to live like
(26:53):
non-Christians.
John (26:56):
Yeah, I'm sure those experiences are ringing true for
a lot of our friends who arelistening.
Owen (27:02):
Yeah.
But you know, now we've arrivedat a huge problem that's
connected to everything thatwe've been saying, John.
And here's that huge problem: Many Christians think that what (27:11):
undefined
they see-- that what theyexperience-- in their Sunday
morning worship services is--"IS"-- is Christianity.
In other words, they go to theseboring, hypocritical services,
(27:32):
and they sit there, and theylook at what's going on, and
they say,"Well, this isChristianity, and I just don't
see anything to it!"
John (27:41):
Yeah.
I'm afraid, Owen, that littleworn out cliche' that's been
around now for a few yearsprobably:"Been There, Done
That," is applicable here.
Owen (27:51):
( Laughter.) And didn't like it, right?
So, well, let's explain thatwith a few more lines from
Saving Christianity.
And it goes like this:"Millionsof Christians have dropped out
of Christian congregationsbecause they thought those
congregations were--'WERE'--Christianity.
(28:16):
The services, rituals, andprograms, that they saw were the
only Christianity they'd everseen.
And since'THAT'-- in quotes--Christianity didn't meet their
needs, they gave up and droppedout of what they thought was
'Christianity.' And they startedliving non-religious lives."
John (28:37):
So the problem was that the dropouts...
we can say...
they never saw the originaltemplate of the Christian
lifestyle.
They never saw the EarlyChristian Lifestyle lived out
the way the first Christianslived.
Owen (28:54):
Well, that's totally correct.
And let's turn that cart around,and look at it backwards, John.
What do you think would happenif Christians today and
encountered an actual Christianwho was living the First Century
lifestyle-- was walking in thepresence of angels and Spiritual
power?
Do you think they'd be bored anddisappointed with that?
(29:17):
I don't think so!(Chuckles.) So,the real tragedy, John, with all
this, is that people-- if Icould put it this way-- are
dropping out of the wrongChristianity! They've never had
a chance to see originalChristianity, and see if they
liked it.
Or, to put it another way, theydropped out of their
(29:39):
congregation because they didn'tsee real Christianity in action
in that congregation.
John (29:48):
Whoa, I bet a lot of our friends have never thought about
it quite that way.
Owen (29:53):
Well, probably not! But remember this, John.
What we're saying-- and this isreally sad-- about this
misunderstanding of what"IS"real Christianity: It applies
not only to the dropouts, but(also) to Christians who are
still in their congregations.
(30:13):
Some of these that we mentionedearlier...
the 45 that I mentioned thathave come back...
many of them were puzzled andconfused and-- sadly-- they feel
guilty.
They feel guilty because theprograms in their congregation
aren't satisfying them.
They don't know why.
(30:34):
And they're making the samemistake that the dropouts are
making.
They're thinking the boringprograms that they're seeing
"ARE" Christianity.
And that this is the only"Christianity" there is.
And they give up.
But-- how can we say this loudlyenough-- those hypocritical,
boring programs are not the onlyChristianity there is.
(31:01):
Now, they are one DESIGN ofChristianity.
Because we're going to talkabout Organizational Design a
lot.
They're, one DESIGN ofChristianity.
But, they're not the design thatthe Followers of The Way used in
their day!
John (31:19):
Hmmm.
Okay.
So, that's a mess, Owen.
Owen (31:24):
Yeah, I think that word fits well.
It is a"mess." But, here's someGood News, John.
Now we have-- and our friendslistening have-- a basic
principle of Christianity nowthat we can talk about and
discuss.
Because in the previousepisodes, we talked about the
(31:49):
"two different Christianlifestyles" that appear in
history.
I mean, we talked about that inthe previous episode.
The First Lifestyle, is thatSpiritual lifestyle that the
Early Christians lived.
And the Second Lifestyle, is theunspiritual lifestyle that many
Christians are living today.
(32:11):
And you can compare those, andsee the differences.
John (32:15):
Yes, I hope everyone remembers that earlier
comparison of those twoChristian lifestyles.
Owen (32:22):
Well, me too! But remember, these lifestyles are
in conflict.
They're in opposition.
And so, that gives us somethingto think about.
There must be something inhistory that caused these two
different lifestyles.
You know (32:39):
Where did the unspiritual lifestyle come from?
Why did the Spiritual lifestyleend?
Think about that.
These two different designs forthe structure of Christian
congregations (32:53):
One design Spiritual.
One design unspiritual.
Where did they come from?
John (33:01):
Hmmm.
So wow! So, you're saying thattoday's Christian congregations
are built on one of those twodifferent designs.
Owen (33:10):
Absolutely.
I think we can all agree onthis.
And here's what that means (33:13):
The cause of all the trouble in
today's Christianity-- we'rerepeating a little bit here, but
let's do it-- is that manyChristian congregations are
based on that unspiritualdesign.
They're not based on theSpiritual design
John (33:35):
And that is incredibly important.
But what here...
this is what I like...
what can be done about it?
Because most congregations wouldbe unwilling to change their
structure.
Owen (33:49):
That's right! They're totally unwilling.
They would go down in flamesfirst.
And that's sad, but true.
But you know, human nature issuch-- habits have such a hold
on us-- that they're almostimpossible to change.
So, many congregations areunwilling, or unable, to change.
But there is a solution.
(34:10):
And that's one reason for thispodcast! There is something
Christians can do.
And let me read a few lines fromSaving Christianity that
explains that.
And I quote:"If we comparetoday's Christian services,
rituals, and programs, to theEarly Christian Lifestyle of
(34:31):
Spiritual living, the two areentirely different.
But, the Good News is that thetwo styles are not mutually
exclusive.
They can co-exist.
They can operate at the sametime.
In other words, today'sChristians can live-- could live
(34:54):
-- the early Christianlifestyle, whether or not they
attend a traditionalcongregation.
They can live it if they do.
They can live it if they don't.
And that's why this book waswritten.
It was written to show thedifference between these two
lifestyles, and to show thattoday's Christians can...
(35:18):
(there's a little a nurseryrhyme, I-think-I-can,
I-think-I-can, I-can!)...
today's Christians can have morepeace, hope, miracles, and
supernatural living-- regardlessof whether or not they're active
in a traditional congregation."
John (35:38):
And we've actually mapped out(what) we're going to cover
in the future episodes of thispodcast.
We're going to answer three bigquestions.
Owen (35:47):
Right! Three big questions in future episodes! And here
they are.
First (35:52):
Where did the Unspiritual Design for Christian
congregations come from?
Second (35:59):
What are the details of the Spiritual Design-- the
design that we're calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle"?
And third (36:09):
How can today's Christians start living that
Spiritual Design...
the one that we're calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle"?
John (36:21):
Yeah, I think those three questions are so important...
so important that their impacton our lives can't be
overstated.
Owen (36:29):
I think that's true.
I mean, you know, one of thethings that we talk about so
much, John, is this issue ofexperience.
Most Christians have neverexperienced the Early Christian
Lifestyle.
They've not experienced themiraculous walk-- the
supernatural walk-- that theEarly Christians lived.
(36:54):
And you know, you can'tunderstand it until you try it.
You can't understand that untilyou've experienced it.
John (37:01):
Yeah, and so that's why we're producing these episodes--
to help us, to help people,rediscover that supernatural
peace, and healing, and hope,that the early Christians had.
Owen (37:15):
Amen, totally true! Well, again John, I always hate to say
it.
But the big clock on the wall istelling me that it's time to
close Episode 03.
So let's just tell our friends...
wherever they are...
wherever they're listening...
that we're going to cover in thenext episode, some very exciting
(37:37):
things.
And I want to read a fewsentences from the end of
Chapter 2 of Saving Christianityto prove that.
John (37:44):
Yeah, what sentences are you referring to, Owen?
Owen (37:48):
Well, I'll tell you, let's read the last paragraph of that
chapter.
And I think it'll give ourfriends a hint, a sense, of
what's coming, in our nextepisode.
And it's this.
Quote:"In the next episode,we're going to return to our
discussion of theProblem-Solving Exercise that we
(38:10):
were working on earlier.
We're going to return to thatnow, and we're going to talk
about, and explain, anddescribe, when, where, and why,
in history, Christians stoppedliving the Early Christian
Lifestyle of supernatural powerand miracles." So-- we're going
(38:34):
to start answering these threequestions in a big and exciting
way.
And talk about where thatUnspiritual Design of Christian
congregations came from.
And I think that as we close,John, all of us: You, Me, our
Listeners, our Producer--everybody-- should be asking
(38:57):
some serious questions.
For example, which design ofChristianity is my life based
on?
The Spiritual Design?
Or the Unspiritual Design?
If I'm a member of acongregation, which design of
Christianity is it based on?
(39:18):
The Spiritual Design?
Or the Unspiritual Design?
John (39:21):
Yes, and Episode 04 is going to be a great help in
answering those questions.
Because it's going to tell uswhere the Unspiritual Design
came from, right?
Owen (39:32):
So, remember, my friends, that this is Episode 03 in our
podcast, and a script and arecording for it are on the
Christian Family Online inAmerica website.
But simply, to get to that,navigate to www.CFOPODS.com on
(39:54):
the Internet.
C-F-O-P-O-D-S.com on theInternet.
John (39:59):
Yes, and please subscribe to this podcast so you'll get
the notifications for ourepisodes, specifically, our next
one-- Number 04-- and the restof the upcoming episodes.
Owen (40:11):
Roger that! And don't forget to grab a copy of Saving
Christianity, so you can followalong, and review and study,
these important principles.
John (40:20):
Yeah, that is important.
Because there are many morefacts in the book than we're
able to cover in these shortepisodes.
Owen (40:29):
Absolutely true! But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (40:33):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf
saying...
Owen (40:39):
...
may the God of our fathers blessyou, and keep you, and guide
you, and protect you, until wemeet again.
Owen and John (40:58):
Owen and John end the episode.
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