March 16, 2021 • 46 mins
The details for "getting back to the basics" of Christianity, and for living the kind of supernatural life that the Early Christians lived. The three ground rules for living the "Early Christian Lifestyle" – and the biggest mistake Christian teachers make today, with the five words that many Christians can't define.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends and listeners! Can youbelieve this is Episode 08 in
our bi-weekly series of the"Saving Christianity" episodes.
(00:23):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian family Online.
And I'm your host, John Shields.
Today, in this episode, we'regoing to continue discussing how
to have more peace, healing, andhope, in our life, and in the
lives of our loved ones.
And to do that, we want to digdeeper into the principles of
(00:47):
original Christianity asdescribed in the book, Saving
Christianity.
Now, this episode is titled,"TheSpiritual Basics." That's right,
"The Spiritual Basics." Think ofit as the"ABCs" of Christianity.
And we're going to explain whyso many Christians today don't
(01:12):
understand how Spiritual growthworks.
So I think this is going to be avery interesting episode for us!
But before we start, let's pausehere to introduce my sidekick of
30 years, and the co-host of thepodcast, Owen Allen.
Owen (01:33):
Well, hello, John! And hello to all of our friends! And
I want everybody out in PodcastLand to know that I never get
tired of talking about howincredibly satisfying what we're
calling the Early ChristianLifestyle is.
Brings an interesting thought tomind, doesn't it?
(01:54):
(It sure does!) How is theChristian lifestyle then,
different from the Christianlifestyle today?
And why would that be true?
Anyway, I never tire of tellinghow living this original type of
Christian life changed me yearsago, and my family, and my
(02:14):
friends over the years.
And you know, we say so often,John and I, and Shannon, here in
the studio (02:20):
Our goal is to live a few minutes of heaven here on
earth-- instead of waiting until, as they say in Ireland,"We're
on the other side of the sod."But now John, why don't we just
pick up where we left off lasttime?
That was back in Episode 07.
(02:41):
But before we start, we need tomake an announcement, and tell
our friends that we're in theprocess of building a new
website for the podcast.
And also a new website address.
Now of course, you've all beenusing www.CFOpods.com for weeks
(03:02):
now.
But our new address is going tobe, or already is: goSCpod.com.
So that would be (03:09):
www.goSC-- which obviously stands for
"Saving Christianity"--goSCpod.com.
That takes you to our website.
And there you can scroll backand see and listen to the
previous episodes.
(03:30):
But more importantly, you canlook at the pictures of all of
us.
John is especially handsome, andso is Shannon.
And we also have not only thepictures, but most importantly,
the transcripts-- a verbatimtranscript of what we've been
saying on these recordings.
(03:52):
But anyway, John! It's time toturn now to"The Spiritual
Basics."
John (03:57):
Yeah, okay.
Let's do that! And I'm excitedabout that.
And just to remind everyone, inprevious episodes, we were
talking about how to have"TheDeeper Christian Walk." And to
do that, how we said we neededto"get back to the basics" of
original Christian Spirituality.
Owen (04:19):
Well, that's right! And the key word is"original," isn't
it?
(Chuckles.) In fact, way back inEpisode 06, we mentioned that
we're now moving into Part Twoof the book, Saving Christianity
...
sort of a guidebook that we'refollowing here in these podcast
episodes.
And that Part Two was headed,"The Early Christian Basics."
(04:45):
That's interesting, isn't it?
What would the"basics" be, ofearly Christianity?
And those of you that rememberEpisode 07-- we had a
round-table discussion with theradio and TV host, Manwell
Grady.
And we were asking ourselves,"Isit even possible to have a
(05:05):
deeper walk today?
To go deeper into Spiritualitytoday, as a Christian?" And we
decided in that episode that itis still possible to live like
an original Christian, even...
though today's environment is sohostile and so confusing.
John (05:27):
And, yeah, we agreed that it is.
And I want to emphasize the"is."It is still possible.
And we agreed that today'sChristians can, and do, live
with the same peace, healing,hope, and miracles that the
Early Christians had.
Owen (05:48):
Well, that's absolutely right, John.
So, here now, in Episode 08,we're going to dig deeper into
what does it take?
What is required to live like anoriginal Christian?
That is, to live the wayChristians lived?
Think about this (06:03):
When Christianity was founded.
And the best way to do that, thething that's needed, is what we
keep saying.
We need, as Christians, to getback to the basics.
John (06:18):
Yeah, right.
And as we always say,"If we dowhat they did, we'll have what
they had!" And that's just not acliche.
And the purpose of the"SavingChristianity" episodes is to
show our friends what the EarlyChristians had.
And then to show them how theycan have the same things.
Owen (06:42):
Exactly.
That's what we want to have: What they had! And to make this (06:43):
undefined
clearer, John, for our friendsout there in Podcast Land, let's
ask ourselves a question.
"What was it?
What was it that the EarlyChristians had?" And we think
about that a moment, and here'sthe answer.
(07:03):
They had peace, healing, andhope, that were the envy of the
world.
They had love, kindness, andcourage, that stunned other
people.
And that's how they changed theworld Spiritually in only 70
years.
Other people saw what they had,and wanted it.
(07:24):
And to get it, they becameChristians too.
And that's how Christianityspread around the world.
It was a process ofnon-Christians observing the
Spiritual behavior of(the Early)Christians.
John (07:39):
Yeah, but unfortunately, that's actually the problem,
isn't it?
And doesn't that bring us rightback to today's Christian
crisis?
Because people aren't seeing--they are not seeing-- enough
Spiritual behavior in today'sChristians, are they.
Owen (07:58):
No.
Sadly-- maybe tragically--they're not! You know, think
about this, John.
Many people today don't envyChristians...
envy Christians...
think about it...
the way they did in the FirstCentury.
Today, many people mockChristians.
(08:18):
Think about that.
For example, Hollywood-- we allknow-- portrays Christians as
"unsophisticated"...
that's a polite word...
as out of touch with reality.
As comical figures.
But, they never portrayChristians as people to be
envied.
John (08:38):
That hurts! It's actually painful.
But we all know it's true.
Owen (08:42):
Well...
and then so here's anotherquestion for our friends:"Why is
that happening?
Why don't people envy Christianstoday?"
John (08:53):
Well, I think we know the answer, Owen.
But we've been saying it now formany episodes.
It's because, at least in asimplest form, it's because
Christians today...
we aren't living the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
Owen (09:10):
Well-- tragically again-- that's right.
You know...
think...
or put it...
I could maybe paraphrase whatyou said, John.
People don't envy Christiansanymore, because Christians
today aren't living with theSpiritual power that the Early
Christians had.
May I say it?
They're living likenon-Christians.
(09:31):
We know that's true because ofthe national polls we've
mentioned several times in theseepisodes: Which find that today,
the average Christian is no moreSpiritual than a non-Christian.
So, as a friend of mine says,John,"to be deathbed honest,"
(09:51):
why would people envy Christianstoday?
There's not(chuckles) much toenvy!
John (09:55):
Wow.
This is getting rough Owen!
Owen (09:58):
Well, maybe.
But listen, isn't it time forsomebody, somewhere, to start
telling the truth about today'sChristianity?
Think about it.
Institutional attendance isdropping like a stone.
We've talked about that.
"Church" buildings are beingbulldozed.
(10:18):
I told in one episode how mywife's home congregation is a
parking lot today.
Some of them-- according to thenewspapers-- are being turned
into bars.
And Christians are comicalfigures, as we said, in movies,
TV shows, stage plays.
Listen, nobody has stopped ask asimple question.
(10:43):
Or if they have, I haven't heardit.
And that question is:"Why?" Andthe second question is:"What can
we do about it?"
John (10:53):
And that's where we come in.
(Amen.) Our goal is to showChristians...
to show everyone...
how to have the same kinds ofSpiritual experiences that the
Early Christians had-- that samepeace, miracles, and
contentment, that they had.
Owen (11:13):
Well...
and I think John, thateverybody, somewhere deep in the
back of their mind, wants that.
I mean, who wouldn't want tolive a miraculous life like we
read about in Early Christianliterature.
So what you're saying is true,and that brings us right back to
the subject of this episode.
(11:33):
As we said, we're entering PartTwo of the book.
And Part Two of the book istitled,"The Early Christian
Basics." Of course, we've beendigging a foundation since the
first episode.
But now we're starting to builda structure on that foundation.
John (11:51):
And it's time to actually take break in our discussion of
the Roman emperor Constantine.
And to take a break in ourdiscussion of Institutional
Christianity.
And it's time now to focus onthe lifestyle of the Early
Christians who lived beforeConstantine was born.
Owen (12:13):
Yeah, and that's the operative phrase, John:"Before
Constantine was born." Let'sremember way back, the title of
Episode 01 was,"The TimeCapsule." And our theme in that
whole episode was, that the mostaccurate evidence-- the most
accurate evidence-- availableabout the original Christians
(12:37):
and how they lived is found inthe letters...
the symbols...
the paintings...
the artifacts...
and the ruins...
that they left behind in aspecific time zone, or specific
framework, from the Middle ofthe First Century, to the Middle
of the Second Century...
about a brief 100-year snapshotin world history.
John (13:02):
Which means for us, if we're going to talk about
"getting back to the basics" ofChristian Spirituality, then we
must talk about what theoriginal Christians said and did
in that time period, between twoGoal Posts of the First and the
(13:22):
Second centuries.
Isn't that right?
Owen (13:24):
I think that's vital, John.
Because listen, think aboutthis: If we talk about what
Christians said and did after--after-- the Middle of the Second
Century, we're not talking aboutthe original Christians.
Remember, we talked in oneepisode about the families-- of
(13:45):
the three generations of yourtypical immediate family.
And that's what we're talkingabout here.
Sadly though...
sadly though...
many Christians today don'tstudy the original evidence.
They study other sources.
John (14:03):
That's right.
Many, many, today only talkabout their Institutional
leaders...
what they're saying and doingright now.
Owen (14:15):
Well...
that's right.
But in my view, there's simplynot enough historical focus in
Christianity today.
Ask yourselves out there inPodcast Land,"When was the last
time you heard another Christianmention something that
Christians said and did in theSecond Century?" Probably never,
(14:37):
right?
John (14:38):
I'm sure that's true.
It's critical-- it's critical--that we stay within those two
Goal Posts of history.
And staying within the First andSecond Centuries puts
"boundaries" around us.
And quite honestly, we shouldn't"step out of bounds."
Owen (14:56):
That's right.
And you know, let's stick thisin sideways, John.
I don't know of another podcastdoing that.
But we want to be unique.
We set out to be unique.
And so, as part of staying nowwithin those Goal Posts, we come
to an extremely importanttechnique.
(15:17):
And it's a technique that Itaught for many years in
management classes.
And the purpose of thistechnique is to help us
understand the basics ofSpiritual growth.
John (15:30):
And I can't stress enough how extremely important this is.
This might be the most importanttechnique we'll discuss.
And so, as our teachers used totell us when we were in school,
"It's time to put on ourlistening ears!" It's time to
tell our friends now about: Defining Key Fuzzy Words. (15:51):
undefined
Owen (15:58):
Yes...
and I've had people laugh formany, many years about that
term, John.
"Fuzzy words." I remember I usedto teach in Mexico, and they
called them,"Fusi palabras." Sobut,"Fuzzy words." And before we
explain now what a Fuzzy wordis, let's make the broader
point (16:14):
The one thing I've learned down through the years
as a Christian, is that there'rethree Ground Rules that are
going to help us understandSpiritual growth better.
And think about this in the sameway that baseball and football
need Ground Rules, I believethat Spiritual growth needs
(16:36):
Ground Rules, too.
John (16:38):
For sure.
And in fact, even more thanbaseball and football do!
Owen (16:43):
That's true, that's true! So, here's the first of our
three Ground Rules.
We've already mentioned it.
But Ground Rule#1 is (16:49):
Defining Key Fuzzy words in Christianity.
John (16:56):
I think that this role is more than a necessity.
In fact, it's an absoluterequirement.
Owen (17:04):
Absolutely, too! Yeah...
the truth is we can't understandSpiritual growth without it.
And if you read that backwards,that's one reason a lot of us
are not growing Spiritually.
So here we go.
We've all heard people saythings like,"Aww, you're just
talking in warm fuzzes." And weall do that.
But, what does the word-- quote--"Fuzzes" actually mean?
John (17:30):
Yeah...
our friends know that it means"not clear," and"confused." But
let's talk about it in thecontext of Spiritual growth.
Owen (17:41):
All right.
Well, here's how it applies toSpiritual growth.
As humans, we often talk to oneanother in a way that gives
other people a feeling that wewant them to know something, or
we want them to do something.
But, we never tell themspecifically what it is that we
(18:01):
want them to know or to do.
John (18:04):
Yeah, that's right.
For example, I'm thinking aSunday school teacher might say
to their class.
"Hey, pay special attention toLesson Six this week." And that
gives the class a feeling.
But it doesn't tell themspecifically what it is that
they're supposed to know or do.
Owen (18:21):
Exactly.
And see normally, speakingauthorities, and speech
teachers, call that"small talk,"or"talking in generalities." But
whatever we call it, speakingand writing in Fuzzy words does
not give people the specificfacts that they need to learn,
(18:43):
or the specific behavior thatthey need to follow.
John (18:48):
And I just want to remind our listeners-- our friends--
that Fuzzy words, in and ofthemselves, aren't a bad thing,
socially.
We all use them every day.
But that's just part of beinghuman.
Owen (19:02):
That's exactly right.
Socially, they're fine.
In fact, they save time andeffort.
They can even be fun, if youthink about it.
Poetry...
one of my daughters is a poet...
poetry is built on Fuzzy words.
So Fuzzy words can be good.
Except for one thing (19:18):
Fuzzy words are dangerous when we're
teaching something important.
And that means they're dangerouswhen we're teaching how to grow
Spiritually.
John (19:32):
And we need to be able to see this clearly.
We're only saying that Fuzzywords are dangerous when we're
trying to grow Spiritually.
In everyday social life, Fuzzywords are okay.
Owen (19:46):
That's right! So now let's define a Fuzzy word for our
friends.
And here is the definition:"AFuzzy word is a word, any word,
that has more than one meaning.
Of course, most words do.
And therefore, can indicate morethan one behavior.
But, the person who's speakingor writing doesn't tell us which
(20:11):
meaning, or which behavior, thathe or she is referring to."
John (20:16):
Well, that's heavy, Owen.
Because it means that many ofthe words and phrases that we
use to teach Spiritual growthare actually Fuzzy words.
So let's just give a fewexamples of that.
Owen (20:29):
Yeah, that'll be...
that's a great idea.
Let's imagine that we're sittingin a coffee shop, or something,
with another Christian.
And we ask this friend,"Listen,how can I grow Spiritually?"
Here's a typical answer that heor she might give us.
He or she might say,"Well, youjust need to spend more time in
(20:51):
your prayer closet."
John (20:53):
Hmm, that's a good one, and a common one.
Or, they could say,"You justneed to pray through!"
Owen (20:59):
(Chuckles.) I hear that one a lot.
Or, this dear, sweet friendmight say,"Well, just stand on
the Word, and you'll be fine."
John (21:07):
Here's another one.
"You need to pray until youtouch the hem of His garment."
Owen (21:11):
Glory, that's a biggie.
(Chuckles.) Well, let's stophere.
Because most of us have heardthis kind of advice all of our
lives.
But notice something important.
This kind of advice is full ofFuzzy words.
How do we know that?
Well, the words"pray through,"and"stand on the Word." What do
(21:31):
they actually mean?
But even more...
specifically, what behavior dothey indicate for us?
If you tell me to spend moretime in my"prayer closet," or to
"stand on the word," what doesthat mean?
I once saw man put his Bible onthe floor and stand on it, and
(21:52):
say he was"standing on theWord." But I don't know that
anybody in the room became moreSpiritual.
John (21:59):
Right, these are certainly great examples of Fuzzy
Christian teaching.
And the thing(is), it's socommon that it's almost become
the norm.
So now, let's tell our friends--our listeners-- what is
something we can do about it?
Let's talk about the techniquethat is used to Define Fuzzy
(22:20):
Words.
Owen (22:21):
Great, great, John.
And the technique is so simplethat it's almost laughable.
But here's the crisis (22:28):
Today's Christian teaching is full of
Fuzzy words.
And I don't mean that in anyugly way.
But if you watch a TV program,or radio program, these days, of
a Christian speaking in public,and their words are almost all
(22:50):
Fuzzy.
So what do we do?
What is the technique?
Simply we ask a simple littlequestion.
I taught this to managementgroups for years and years.
And here's that little question: "What does'BLANK' mean?" In (23:01):
undefined
other words, you insert theFuzzy word in that hole there.
So:"What does'BLANK' mean?" Andto check that...
how that works...
let's use the one that youmentioned a minute ago, John:
(23:21):
"You need to pray until you'touch the hem of his garment'."
How would we use that sittingwith our friend in the coffee
shop?
We'd just simply say:"Oh, great...
and what does'touch the hem ofhis garment mean'?"(Repeats.)
That's not offensive.
(23:41):
That doesn't hurt anybody'sfeelings.
And that person says,"Oh well,you know...
remember back in Matthew 8, inverses 43 through 48, where the
sick woman had so much faith,that she stuck her hand through
the crowd, and she touched thehem of Jesus's garment, and she
(24:02):
was healed.
And so, then what would thatphrase mean?
It would mean (24:06):
Pray until you have enough faith to start
growing Spiritually."
John (24:13):
Hmm.
That's a big difference betweenthose two sentences, isn't it?
And that's why so much Christianteaching-- we've concluded-- is
ineffective today.
It's full of Fuzzy words.
And Christians don't understand...
unfortunately...
what they're being told.
Or, what they're supposed to do.
Owen (24:33):
Tragically, tragically.
So Ground Rule#1 then, is: Define Key Fuzzy Words, as we're (24:35):
undefined
going here through theseepisodes.
John (24:44):
Okay, now.
So now, let's tell our friendsout here listening, some of the
Christian Fuzzy words we'regoing to define for them in the
coming episodes.
Owen (24:55):
I think this is really important, John.
( Yeah.) In the field ofSpiritual growth, there are five
very, very important key wordsthat most people never stop to
define.
They just assume that everybodyknows what they mean.
What are some of these words?
Let me list them (25:13):
Christian...
baptism...
Spiritual...
worship...
small group.
Now, imagine if we used ourmagic question:"What do you mean
by'Christian'?" Or,"What do youmean by'baptism'?"
John (25:28):
Yeah, they are(chuckles), they are biggies, aren't they?
(Absolutely.) I mean, everyChristian, you would think, we
should be able to define thosewords, right off the top of our
head.
But I wonder...
I wonder...
how many can actually do it?
Owen (25:46):
Hmm.
If I had to guess, it wouldprobably be the answer,"Not
many." I know that for years, Icouldn't! Now listen, all of
these words (25:55):
Christian...
Spiritual...
worship...
give you a feeling that youthink you know what they mean.
And you think you know whatbehaviors are indicated.
But, factually, truthfully, whatdo they really mean?
And what are the real behaviorsthat"worship," and"Spiritual,"
and"Christian," would indicate?
John (26:16):
Yeah, and those are profound questions.
And that's why we're talking inthis episode about the"basics"
of Spirituality.
After all, how can we beSpiritual, if we don't even
understand the basic words ofSpirituality?
Owen (26:35):
Ouch.
That hurts.
Well...
and I think too, John, that'swhy so many Christians are
unspiritual these days.
Their Christian teachers-- ifthey have any!-- assume that
they know the meanings of thesewords.
And assume they know whatbehavior is indicated, if
somebody says,"worship," or"Spiritual."
John (26:55):
Yeah.
But we know that's not true.
They don't! And the worst partof it is, that their teachers
often don't know what the wordsmean either!
Owen (27:05):
Very true.
I know for years I stood in thepublic, and had no idea what I
was telling them.
Well, so if we're going todefine these words now-- these
key Christian words-- the nextweird question is:"Where would
we get the dictionary?
What type of dictionary would weuse to look up those
(27:26):
definitions?"
John (27:29):
Well, I know one thing, Owen.
We aren't-- we are not-- goingto use Webster's! We aren't
going to use Google! Or anyother modern source of
definitions.
Owen (27:40):
That's right.
I mean we keep...
I keep beating my little tindrum...
that we've got to go back to theFirst and Second Centuries.
Today, John, this is a weirdthought: If we're looking for a
dictionary for Christian words,the big problem is, that there
are too many of them! Thinkabout that a second.
So let's list some of thedictionaries that Christians use
(28:02):
today.
John (28:03):
Yeah, you're going to like this, because this is an
important principle.
Owen (28:08):
So...
let's say that we're going toask ourselves: Where does the
average Christian today get hisor her understanding of the most
common Christian words?
And the first place is, many ofthem take their definitions...
their understanding...
of Spiritual growth...
(28:29):
from the books, radio programs,(and) TV shows, produced by the
pastors of what we call the"mega-churches" today.
And they do that because theythink,"Well, mercy.
This person is a pastor of achurch that averages 2,000
people per service.
So they must be right."
John (28:51):
Yeah, that's true.
We see and hear programsproduced by the-- quote--
"mega-churches"-- end quote--every day.
And we accept their definitions.
In fact, we don't really haveanything to compare it to.
So we accept it...
their Christian words...
their definitions...
because they are from the"mega-churches."
Owen (29:12):
You got it! But, let's say we get smart.
And we say,"Look it, I'm justgoing to go deeper than what my
local pastor is telling me." Andso, other Christians take their
definitions from the groupcalled"The Great Evangelists" of
the 1700s and 1800s.
These were the people likeDwight L.
(29:32):
Moody, and John Wesley.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, okay.
These people were so popular intheir day! They had thousands of
people lined up in a pasture tolisten to them.
So they must have been right."
John (29:48):
Yeah, that's true again.
For example, I know these"GreatEvangelists" are required
reading in many Sunday schools,and even seminary classes.
Owen (29:58):
Absolutely, they are.
Let's say a person says,"Naah, Iwant to go a lot deeper." So,
there are other Christians whotake their definitions from"The
Great Reformers" of the MiddleAges.
These were the people like JohnCalvin, and Martin Luther.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, these Reformers were
so brave in their day.
(30:20):
They were facing being torturedfor what they were teaching.
They must have been right."
John (30:26):
Yeah, right.
Again,"The Great Reformers" arealso required reading.
I feel like I'm a broken record,Owen!
Owen (30:33):
( Chuckles.) Yes, indeed.
So well, but then again, we gothrough...
let's say a person said,"Look, Iwant to go absolutely as deep as
I can go." So, some Christiansthen are taking their definition
from the so-called"ChurchFathers" of the Fifth and Sixth
Centuries.
(30:54):
And these are writers like S t.
Jerome, and S t.
Augustine, and S t.
Gregory.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, look.
Those people were sophilosophical in their day.
So learned in their day.
They must have been, right."
John (31:10):
Yeah, I've known Christians who took definitions
from all these sources.
But I also see a pattern here.
It's this (31:18):
Very few Christians today are taking their
definitions...
their understanding of keyChristian words...
from the original Christians.
Owen (31:30):
Exactly.
Go back to the inventor.
Go back to the founder, everytime.
And that's exactly the problemthat we want our friends in
Podcast Land to see in thisepisode.
Not enough of us today aretaking our definitions of the
key Christian words...
the key Christian Fuzzy words...
(31:53):
from the writings, and symbols,and paintings, of the original
Christians in the First andSecond Centuries.
Well, who were these people?
These were the Christian writers-- these names may sound
familiar to you (32:06):
Peter...
Paul...
James...
John...
Luke in the First Century.
And then, lesser known (32:15):
Clement ...
Ignatius...
and the others in the SecondCentury.
John (32:21):
Yeah.
That's so, so, very interesting.
And actually it's theunderpinning of everything that
we are talking about.
So let's tell our friends onceagain why this is such a bad
thing.
Owen (32:35):
Well...
remember we said back inEpisodes 01 and 02, where we
were talking about"The TimeCapsule" in the First and Second
Centuries, that was the periodof time when the most accurate
evidence existed on whatChristianity was, and was meant
to be.
(32:55):
In other words, the fundamentalsof it.
The foundations of it.
And after that, the further wego away from there, through into
the Fourth Century and beyond,that accurate evidence just
simply fades away.
John (33:11):
So that means that Christians who take their
definitions from writers whowrote-- or who are writing--
after the Fourth Century, we canconclude, do not have the most
accurate definitions for theirwords.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Owen (33:32):
Yeah, and I mean that's tragic.
Because they mean well.
It's not their fault.
They were taught that too.
(Right.) But think about it.
Any writer who wrote-- or is nowwriting-- after the Fourth
Century is either a member ofnow, or a former member of,
(33:54):
Institutional Christianity.
And so, no matter how hard theytry, they're heavily influenced
by the structure and traditionsof Institutional Christianity.
John (34:08):
Uh-huh.
It's the lens.
They're always looking.
So, Christian writers today,what you're saying is, they
can't help speaking and writingfrom the viewpoint of their
denominations or traditions.
And they define their Fuzzywords the way their
denominations define them.
(34:29):
Because their reputations andincome depend on it.
And, we might add, theyliterally...
and we don't mean thiscondescendingly...
don't know any better.
Owen (34:40):
Yeah.
That's true.
As you say so often, John,"Youdon't know what you don't know."
And I think that's a very(chuckles) insightful comment.
But look it, what that means is,their definitions for Christian
Spiritual worship are 1,700years removed from the
(35:00):
definitions of those words bythe original Christians.
Here's something we need toremember, John.
The denominations, as we knowthem today, were founded in the
Middle Ages.
They were not founded by theoriginal Christians.
Now, I know there are somedenominations...
I'm thinking of one specifically...
(35:22):
that claim that they werefounded by the Early Christians
in the First Century.
But they weren't.
We know they were founded byConstantine in the Fourth
Century.
John (35:34):
Yeah, and I know, as you're listening to this, that
this-- especially for the firsttime-- may sound just a little
heady.
But we can't emphasize enoughthat the point of all of this is
simple.
It's simply this (35:49):
If Christians don't...
if we don't...
understand the basic words forSpiritual growth, how are we
ever going to learn about, notonly learn but live, Spiritual
growth?
Owen (36:06):
Experience it! That's right.
Exactly.
And you know, John.
I too, join you.
I hope this doesn't sound tooharsh.
But back in Episode 01, we saidit was important to learn from
people who had known Jesus.
Or people who had known peoplewho had known Jesus.
(36:26):
And that's exactly what we'retalking about by taking our
definitions from the Middle ofthe First and Second Centuries.
John (36:34):
Yeah.
No, Owen.
I don't think this principle--excuse me-- I think this
principle is so important thatwe can't...
we can't...
be too harsh with it.
Owen (36:45):
Yeah.
Well...
so let's summarize what we'vesaid, then.
Ground Rule#1 is:"Define TheseKey Fuzzy Words." Ground Rule#2
is:"To Define Them Using OnlyFirst and Second Century
Definitions."
John (37:02):
And I think our first two ground rules:"Define Fuzzy
Words," and"Use First and SecondCentury Definitions," make
perfect sense.
And I don't see why anyone wouldnot...
we would not...
want to use them as ourresource.
Owen (37:19):
Yeah! Because what would be holding us back?
What would we be afraid of?
Well...
so now, here's#3.
Here's our last, and could be(our), most important Ground
Rule.
And it's this.
These word meanings that we'retalking about are:"Models for
Behavior."
John (37:39):
Hmm.
Wow.
I think that's going to be abiggie, Owen.
Very few Christians use EarlyChristian word meanings as
models for daily behavior.
Owen (37:50):
Yeah, think about it.
I mean, that's sad, but true.
To be again"deathbed honest,"most Christians just behave the
way each day that thenon-Christians around them are
behaving.
And you know, we'll talk aboutPeer Group Pressure-- a great
big subject-- in anotherepisode.
But, that is exactly the reasonwhy the national polls show no
(38:14):
Spiritual difference betweenChristians and non-Christians.
So, a big part of Defining FuzzyWords is knowing what behavior
...
what daily behavior...
they're indicating for usChristians.
Like we've said, Christianity isa supernatural experience.
(38:37):
It's a religion of supernaturalbehavior.
It's not a religion ofintellectual ideas for us to sit
around and debate.
John (38:48):
Yeah, and as we've said so often, that's why Christianity
spread worldwide in only 70years.
Non-Christians saw thesupernatural behavior that the
Christians had.
And they wanted it too.
I'm sure they did.
That's why we're doing this.
(39:09):
And so they became Christians toget it.
Owen (39:12):
Yeah, John.
And let's read that backwards.
Think about this.
If Christians had not hadsupernatural behavior in the
First Century, Christianitywould not have spread worldwide,
and there wouldn't be anyChristians today.
John (39:29):
Huh.
A lot of us have never thoughtof it that way! I think that's a
vital principle.
Owen (39:34):
So...
let's go even deeper with that.
One of the reasons whyChristianity is in crisis today
is because it no longer teachesthat Christianity is
supernatural behavior.
When have you ever heardsomebody tell you that?
Today, it's largely a"DebateClub." We sit around with tea
(39:58):
and cookies, and we debate.
And we tell one another what wethink we can do, and will do,
and don't believe, and dobelieve.
John (40:07):
Yeah, we sit around and ask one another opinion
questions.
I understand completely.
Things like:"Do you think theseare the end times?" And,"Do you
think people in heaven can seewhat we're doing?"
Owen (40:20):
I heard that this week! (Chuckles.) But listen, John.
As my wife's mother used to say,"In the light of eternity, what
do these questions matter?" Thefact is, they don't help us have
supernatural behavior each day.
You know what?
They probably detract from it.
John (40:41):
Yeah, I think so.
So, here's the point.
That one of the emphases of ourpodcast is: Christianity isn't
an opinion.
Right?
It's a supernatural experience.
And that means the more"OpinionQuestions" we ask each other,
the more like a"Debate Club" webecome.
Owen (41:03):
(Chuckles.) That's a good lesson, John.
You know...
again...
I say back in Episodes 01 and02, we were talking about
behavior in those episodes.
And you know what?
We said that the EarlyChristians were originally
called, Followers of The Way.
They were not called,"Followersof The Opinion."(Right!) So
John, here's the principle (41:25):
The definitions that the Early
Christians wrote about...
and their definitions weredefinitions of Spiritual
behavior.
They were tools for teachingSpiritual behavior.
We don't often see that.
And that's why those samedefinitions are so necessary
(41:47):
today.
John (41:49):
Yeah, and that's why our episodes are...
that's what they're all about.
And we're excited, because we'regoing to talk about what those
original Early Christians...
how they defined this.
Owen (42:04):
That's right.
Absolutely.
Well John, here we go again.
I see from the big clock on thewall that it's almost time to
close.
But let's summarize.
So, we've talked about"TheSpiritual basics." And we've
said that there's a lack ofunderstanding of the Spiritual
(42:26):
basics today.
And that's causing-- that's thereason why-- so many Christians
are confused about Spiritualgrowth.
John (42:36):
Yes, and now we know why people are confused.
It's because no one is givingthem the original definitions
for Christianity's key-- what wecall"Fuzzy words." So we're
doing that in these episodes.
Owen (42:56):
That's right.
And you know, here's thisimportant fact again.
When defined correctly, theseChristian words, like"worship"
...
like"Spiritual"...
like"Christian"...
are behavior words.
They're not opinion words.
And that's why, John, we say sooften-- you said it at the top
(43:16):
of the show:"If we do"-- that'sbehavior--"If we do what they
did, we'll have what they have."
John (43:26):
Yeah, and Owen, I just recently(had) a conversation
with someone who made thestatement-- it's just so true--
that actions always trump ourwords.
They will always carry the day.
Our actions over what we say.
So we can't, we cannot,overemphasize the importance of
(43:48):
that.
Christianity is a matter ofbehavior.
Of actions.
Not opinions and words.
Spiritual growth is a behavior.
It's a lifestyle.
It's not opinion.
Owen (44:02):
That's so, so well said, John! Well...
so look, as we come to the closeof the episode, let's review.
There are three Ground Rules.
Because listen, we're going touse them from now on.
Ground Rule#1 (44:16):
Define Our Key Fuzzy Words.
Ground Rule#2 (44:20):
Define Them With First and Second Century
Definitions.
And Ground Rule#3 (44:25):
Use Those Meanings as Models for Behavior.
Not as goals or items of debate.
So, we're going to stick tothese now in our future
episodes, and not say probablymuch more about it.
We're just going to do it.
(44:47):
So I don't know, John...
I think as we close, this hasbeen one of our most important
episodes.
John (44:53):
Yeah, it clearly has been.
And our friends should rememberthat this is Episode 08, and
that pictures, a script, and arecording of it-- all of these--
are on our podcast website,along with all the other
episodes in the series.
Owen (45:12):
That's right.
And remember, as we said earlier, our new podcast address is:
www.goSCpod.com.
And that's G-O-S-C-P-O-D...
goSCpod.com.
Of course, the old address, thatwe've given you in earlier
(45:34):
episodes, CFOpods.com, is stillgood.
And also, listen, remember thatthese episodes are a series.
And we're giving a new episodeevery-other-Tuesday.
But the episodes are connectedsequentially.
So, they build on one another.
(45:55):
And we hope and pray that you'llgo back, if you haven't, and
listen to the original...
some of the earlier episodesthat build up to this one.
But anyway, for now, this isOwen Allen...
John (46:08):
...
and this is John Shields,together with our producer,
Shannon Wolfe...
Owen (46:13):
...
saying (46:13):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (46:34):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends and listeners! Can youbelieve this is Episode 08 in
our bi-weekly series of the"Saving Christianity" episodes.
(00:23):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian family Online.
And I'm your host, John Shields.
Today, in this episode, we'regoing to continue discussing how
to have more peace, healing, andhope, in our life, and in the
lives of our loved ones.
And to do that, we want to digdeeper into the principles of
(00:47):
original Christianity asdescribed in the book, Saving
Christianity.
Now, this episode is titled,"TheSpiritual Basics." That's right,
"The Spiritual Basics." Think ofit as the"ABCs" of Christianity.
And we're going to explain whyso many Christians today don't
(01:12):
understand how Spiritual growthworks.
So I think this is going to be avery interesting episode for us!
But before we start, let's pausehere to introduce my sidekick of
30 years, and the co-host of thepodcast, Owen Allen.
Owen (01:33):
Well, hello, John! And hello to all of our friends! And
I want everybody out in PodcastLand to know that I never get
tired of talking about howincredibly satisfying what we're
calling the Early ChristianLifestyle is.
Brings an interesting thought tomind, doesn't it?
(01:54):
(It sure does!) How is theChristian lifestyle then,
different from the Christianlifestyle today?
And why would that be true?
Anyway, I never tire of tellinghow living this original type of
Christian life changed me yearsago, and my family, and my
(02:14):
friends over the years.
And you know, we say so often,John and I, and Shannon, here in
the studio (02:20):
Our goal is to live a few minutes of heaven here on
earth-- instead of waiting until, as they say in Ireland,"We're
on the other side of the sod."But now John, why don't we just
pick up where we left off lasttime?
That was back in Episode 07.
(02:41):
But before we start, we need tomake an announcement, and tell
our friends that we're in theprocess of building a new
website for the podcast.
And also a new website address.
Now of course, you've all beenusing www.CFOpods.com for weeks
(03:02):
now.
But our new address is going tobe, or already is: goSCpod.com.
So that would be (03:09):
www.goSC-- which obviously stands for
"Saving Christianity"--goSCpod.com.
That takes you to our website.
And there you can scroll backand see and listen to the
previous episodes.
(03:30):
But more importantly, you canlook at the pictures of all of
us.
John is especially handsome, andso is Shannon.
And we also have not only thepictures, but most importantly,
the transcripts-- a verbatimtranscript of what we've been
saying on these recordings.
(03:52):
But anyway, John! It's time toturn now to"The Spiritual
Basics."
John (03:57):
Yeah, okay.
Let's do that! And I'm excitedabout that.
And just to remind everyone, inprevious episodes, we were
talking about how to have"TheDeeper Christian Walk." And to
do that, how we said we neededto"get back to the basics" of
original Christian Spirituality.
Owen (04:19):
Well, that's right! And the key word is"original," isn't
it?
(Chuckles.) In fact, way back inEpisode 06, we mentioned that
we're now moving into Part Twoof the book, Saving Christianity
...
sort of a guidebook that we'refollowing here in these podcast
episodes.
And that Part Two was headed,"The Early Christian Basics."
(04:45):
That's interesting, isn't it?
What would the"basics" be, ofearly Christianity?
And those of you that rememberEpisode 07-- we had a
round-table discussion with theradio and TV host, Manwell
Grady.
And we were asking ourselves,"Isit even possible to have a
(05:05):
deeper walk today?
To go deeper into Spiritualitytoday, as a Christian?" And we
decided in that episode that itis still possible to live like
an original Christian, even...
though today's environment is sohostile and so confusing.
John (05:27):
And, yeah, we agreed that it is.
And I want to emphasize the"is."It is still possible.
And we agreed that today'sChristians can, and do, live
with the same peace, healing,hope, and miracles that the
Early Christians had.
Owen (05:48):
Well, that's absolutely right, John.
So, here now, in Episode 08,we're going to dig deeper into
what does it take?
What is required to live like anoriginal Christian?
That is, to live the wayChristians lived?
Think about this (06:03):
When Christianity was founded.
And the best way to do that, thething that's needed, is what we
keep saying.
We need, as Christians, to getback to the basics.
John (06:18):
Yeah, right.
And as we always say,"If we dowhat they did, we'll have what
they had!" And that's just not acliche.
And the purpose of the"SavingChristianity" episodes is to
show our friends what the EarlyChristians had.
And then to show them how theycan have the same things.
Owen (06:42):
Exactly.
That's what we want to have: What they had! And to make this (06:43):
undefined
clearer, John, for our friendsout there in Podcast Land, let's
ask ourselves a question.
"What was it?
What was it that the EarlyChristians had?" And we think
about that a moment, and here'sthe answer.
(07:03):
They had peace, healing, andhope, that were the envy of the
world.
They had love, kindness, andcourage, that stunned other
people.
And that's how they changed theworld Spiritually in only 70
years.
Other people saw what they had,and wanted it.
(07:24):
And to get it, they becameChristians too.
And that's how Christianityspread around the world.
It was a process ofnon-Christians observing the
Spiritual behavior of(the Early)Christians.
John (07:39):
Yeah, but unfortunately, that's actually the problem,
isn't it?
And doesn't that bring us rightback to today's Christian
crisis?
Because people aren't seeing--they are not seeing-- enough
Spiritual behavior in today'sChristians, are they.
Owen (07:58):
No.
Sadly-- maybe tragically--they're not! You know, think
about this, John.
Many people today don't envyChristians...
envy Christians...
think about it...
the way they did in the FirstCentury.
Today, many people mockChristians.
(08:18):
Think about that.
For example, Hollywood-- we allknow-- portrays Christians as
"unsophisticated"...
that's a polite word...
as out of touch with reality.
As comical figures.
But, they never portrayChristians as people to be
envied.
John (08:38):
That hurts! It's actually painful.
But we all know it's true.
Owen (08:42):
Well...
and then so here's anotherquestion for our friends:"Why is
that happening?
Why don't people envy Christianstoday?"
John (08:53):
Well, I think we know the answer, Owen.
But we've been saying it now formany episodes.
It's because, at least in asimplest form, it's because
Christians today...
we aren't living the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
Owen (09:10):
Well-- tragically again-- that's right.
You know...
think...
or put it...
I could maybe paraphrase whatyou said, John.
People don't envy Christiansanymore, because Christians
today aren't living with theSpiritual power that the Early
Christians had.
May I say it?
They're living likenon-Christians.
(09:31):
We know that's true because ofthe national polls we've
mentioned several times in theseepisodes: Which find that today,
the average Christian is no moreSpiritual than a non-Christian.
So, as a friend of mine says,John,"to be deathbed honest,"
(09:51):
why would people envy Christianstoday?
There's not(chuckles) much toenvy!
John (09:55):
Wow.
This is getting rough Owen!
Owen (09:58):
Well, maybe.
But listen, isn't it time forsomebody, somewhere, to start
telling the truth about today'sChristianity?
Think about it.
Institutional attendance isdropping like a stone.
We've talked about that.
"Church" buildings are beingbulldozed.
(10:18):
I told in one episode how mywife's home congregation is a
parking lot today.
Some of them-- according to thenewspapers-- are being turned
into bars.
And Christians are comicalfigures, as we said, in movies,
TV shows, stage plays.
Listen, nobody has stopped ask asimple question.
(10:43):
Or if they have, I haven't heardit.
And that question is:"Why?" Andthe second question is:"What can
we do about it?"
John (10:53):
And that's where we come in.
(Amen.) Our goal is to showChristians...
to show everyone...
how to have the same kinds ofSpiritual experiences that the
Early Christians had-- that samepeace, miracles, and
contentment, that they had.
Owen (11:13):
Well...
and I think John, thateverybody, somewhere deep in the
back of their mind, wants that.
I mean, who wouldn't want tolive a miraculous life like we
read about in Early Christianliterature.
So what you're saying is true,and that brings us right back to
the subject of this episode.
(11:33):
As we said, we're entering PartTwo of the book.
And Part Two of the book istitled,"The Early Christian
Basics." Of course, we've beendigging a foundation since the
first episode.
But now we're starting to builda structure on that foundation.
John (11:51):
And it's time to actually take break in our discussion of
the Roman emperor Constantine.
And to take a break in ourdiscussion of Institutional
Christianity.
And it's time now to focus onthe lifestyle of the Early
Christians who lived beforeConstantine was born.
Owen (12:13):
Yeah, and that's the operative phrase, John:"Before
Constantine was born." Let'sremember way back, the title of
Episode 01 was,"The TimeCapsule." And our theme in that
whole episode was, that the mostaccurate evidence-- the most
accurate evidence-- availableabout the original Christians
(12:37):
and how they lived is found inthe letters...
the symbols...
the paintings...
the artifacts...
and the ruins...
that they left behind in aspecific time zone, or specific
framework, from the Middle ofthe First Century, to the Middle
of the Second Century...
about a brief 100-year snapshotin world history.
John (13:02):
Which means for us, if we're going to talk about
"getting back to the basics" ofChristian Spirituality, then we
must talk about what theoriginal Christians said and did
in that time period, between twoGoal Posts of the First and the
(13:22):
Second centuries.
Isn't that right?
Owen (13:24):
I think that's vital, John.
Because listen, think aboutthis: If we talk about what
Christians said and did after--after-- the Middle of the Second
Century, we're not talking aboutthe original Christians.
Remember, we talked in oneepisode about the families-- of
(13:45):
the three generations of yourtypical immediate family.
And that's what we're talkingabout here.
Sadly though...
sadly though...
many Christians today don'tstudy the original evidence.
They study other sources.
John (14:03):
That's right.
Many, many, today only talkabout their Institutional
leaders...
what they're saying and doingright now.
Owen (14:15):
Well...
that's right.
But in my view, there's simplynot enough historical focus in
Christianity today.
Ask yourselves out there inPodcast Land,"When was the last
time you heard another Christianmention something that
Christians said and did in theSecond Century?" Probably never,
(14:37):
right?
John (14:38):
I'm sure that's true.
It's critical-- it's critical--that we stay within those two
Goal Posts of history.
And staying within the First andSecond Centuries puts
"boundaries" around us.
And quite honestly, we shouldn't"step out of bounds."
Owen (14:56):
That's right.
And you know, let's stick thisin sideways, John.
I don't know of another podcastdoing that.
But we want to be unique.
We set out to be unique.
And so, as part of staying nowwithin those Goal Posts, we come
to an extremely importanttechnique.
(15:17):
And it's a technique that Itaught for many years in
management classes.
And the purpose of thistechnique is to help us
understand the basics ofSpiritual growth.
John (15:30):
And I can't stress enough how extremely important this is.
This might be the most importanttechnique we'll discuss.
And so, as our teachers used totell us when we were in school,
"It's time to put on ourlistening ears!" It's time to
tell our friends now about: Defining Key Fuzzy Words. (15:51):
undefined
Owen (15:58):
Yes...
and I've had people laugh formany, many years about that
term, John.
"Fuzzy words." I remember I usedto teach in Mexico, and they
called them,"Fusi palabras." Sobut,"Fuzzy words." And before we
explain now what a Fuzzy wordis, let's make the broader
point (16:14):
The one thing I've learned down through the years
as a Christian, is that there'rethree Ground Rules that are
going to help us understandSpiritual growth better.
And think about this in the sameway that baseball and football
need Ground Rules, I believethat Spiritual growth needs
(16:36):
Ground Rules, too.
John (16:38):
For sure.
And in fact, even more thanbaseball and football do!
Owen (16:43):
That's true, that's true! So, here's the first of our
three Ground Rules.
We've already mentioned it.
But Ground Rule#1 is (16:49):
Defining Key Fuzzy words in Christianity.
John (16:56):
I think that this role is more than a necessity.
In fact, it's an absoluterequirement.
Owen (17:04):
Absolutely, too! Yeah...
the truth is we can't understandSpiritual growth without it.
And if you read that backwards,that's one reason a lot of us
are not growing Spiritually.
So here we go.
We've all heard people saythings like,"Aww, you're just
talking in warm fuzzes." And weall do that.
But, what does the word-- quote--"Fuzzes" actually mean?
John (17:30):
Yeah...
our friends know that it means"not clear," and"confused." But
let's talk about it in thecontext of Spiritual growth.
Owen (17:41):
All right.
Well, here's how it applies toSpiritual growth.
As humans, we often talk to oneanother in a way that gives
other people a feeling that wewant them to know something, or
we want them to do something.
But, we never tell themspecifically what it is that we
(18:01):
want them to know or to do.
John (18:04):
Yeah, that's right.
For example, I'm thinking aSunday school teacher might say
to their class.
"Hey, pay special attention toLesson Six this week." And that
gives the class a feeling.
But it doesn't tell themspecifically what it is that
they're supposed to know or do.
Owen (18:21):
Exactly.
And see normally, speakingauthorities, and speech
teachers, call that"small talk,"or"talking in generalities." But
whatever we call it, speakingand writing in Fuzzy words does
not give people the specificfacts that they need to learn,
(18:43):
or the specific behavior thatthey need to follow.
John (18:48):
And I just want to remind our listeners-- our friends--
that Fuzzy words, in and ofthemselves, aren't a bad thing,
socially.
We all use them every day.
But that's just part of beinghuman.
Owen (19:02):
That's exactly right.
Socially, they're fine.
In fact, they save time andeffort.
They can even be fun, if youthink about it.
Poetry...
one of my daughters is a poet...
poetry is built on Fuzzy words.
So Fuzzy words can be good.
Except for one thing (19:18):
Fuzzy words are dangerous when we're
teaching something important.
And that means they're dangerouswhen we're teaching how to grow
Spiritually.
John (19:32):
And we need to be able to see this clearly.
We're only saying that Fuzzywords are dangerous when we're
trying to grow Spiritually.
In everyday social life, Fuzzywords are okay.
Owen (19:46):
That's right! So now let's define a Fuzzy word for our
friends.
And here is the definition:"AFuzzy word is a word, any word,
that has more than one meaning.
Of course, most words do.
And therefore, can indicate morethan one behavior.
But, the person who's speakingor writing doesn't tell us which
(20:11):
meaning, or which behavior, thathe or she is referring to."
John (20:16):
Well, that's heavy, Owen.
Because it means that many ofthe words and phrases that we
use to teach Spiritual growthare actually Fuzzy words.
So let's just give a fewexamples of that.
Owen (20:29):
Yeah, that'll be...
that's a great idea.
Let's imagine that we're sittingin a coffee shop, or something,
with another Christian.
And we ask this friend,"Listen,how can I grow Spiritually?"
Here's a typical answer that heor she might give us.
He or she might say,"Well, youjust need to spend more time in
(20:51):
your prayer closet."
John (20:53):
Hmm, that's a good one, and a common one.
Or, they could say,"You justneed to pray through!"
Owen (20:59):
(Chuckles.) I hear that one a lot.
Or, this dear, sweet friendmight say,"Well, just stand on
the Word, and you'll be fine."
John (21:07):
Here's another one.
"You need to pray until youtouch the hem of His garment."
Owen (21:11):
Glory, that's a biggie.
(Chuckles.) Well, let's stophere.
Because most of us have heardthis kind of advice all of our
lives.
But notice something important.
This kind of advice is full ofFuzzy words.
How do we know that?
Well, the words"pray through,"and"stand on the Word." What do
(21:31):
they actually mean?
But even more...
specifically, what behavior dothey indicate for us?
If you tell me to spend moretime in my"prayer closet," or to
"stand on the word," what doesthat mean?
I once saw man put his Bible onthe floor and stand on it, and
(21:52):
say he was"standing on theWord." But I don't know that
anybody in the room became moreSpiritual.
John (21:59):
Right, these are certainly great examples of Fuzzy
Christian teaching.
And the thing(is), it's socommon that it's almost become
the norm.
So now, let's tell our friends--our listeners-- what is
something we can do about it?
Let's talk about the techniquethat is used to Define Fuzzy
(22:20):
Words.
Owen (22:21):
Great, great, John.
And the technique is so simplethat it's almost laughable.
But here's the crisis (22:28):
Today's Christian teaching is full of
Fuzzy words.
And I don't mean that in anyugly way.
But if you watch a TV program,or radio program, these days, of
a Christian speaking in public,and their words are almost all
(22:50):
Fuzzy.
So what do we do?
What is the technique?
Simply we ask a simple littlequestion.
I taught this to managementgroups for years and years.
And here's that little question: "What does'BLANK' mean?" In (23:01):
undefined
other words, you insert theFuzzy word in that hole there.
So:"What does'BLANK' mean?" Andto check that...
how that works...
let's use the one that youmentioned a minute ago, John:
(23:21):
"You need to pray until you'touch the hem of his garment'."
How would we use that sittingwith our friend in the coffee
shop?
We'd just simply say:"Oh, great...
and what does'touch the hem ofhis garment mean'?"(Repeats.)
That's not offensive.
(23:41):
That doesn't hurt anybody'sfeelings.
And that person says,"Oh well,you know...
remember back in Matthew 8, inverses 43 through 48, where the
sick woman had so much faith,that she stuck her hand through
the crowd, and she touched thehem of Jesus's garment, and she
(24:02):
was healed.
And so, then what would thatphrase mean?
It would mean (24:06):
Pray until you have enough faith to start
growing Spiritually."
John (24:13):
Hmm.
That's a big difference betweenthose two sentences, isn't it?
And that's why so much Christianteaching-- we've concluded-- is
ineffective today.
It's full of Fuzzy words.
And Christians don't understand...
unfortunately...
what they're being told.
Or, what they're supposed to do.
Owen (24:33):
Tragically, tragically.
So Ground Rule#1 then, is: Define Key Fuzzy Words, as we're (24:35):
undefined
going here through theseepisodes.
John (24:44):
Okay, now.
So now, let's tell our friendsout here listening, some of the
Christian Fuzzy words we'regoing to define for them in the
coming episodes.
Owen (24:55):
I think this is really important, John.
( Yeah.) In the field ofSpiritual growth, there are five
very, very important key wordsthat most people never stop to
define.
They just assume that everybodyknows what they mean.
What are some of these words?
Let me list them (25:13):
Christian...
baptism...
Spiritual...
worship...
small group.
Now, imagine if we used ourmagic question:"What do you mean
by'Christian'?" Or,"What do youmean by'baptism'?"
John (25:28):
Yeah, they are(chuckles), they are biggies, aren't they?
(Absolutely.) I mean, everyChristian, you would think, we
should be able to define thosewords, right off the top of our
head.
But I wonder...
I wonder...
how many can actually do it?
Owen (25:46):
Hmm.
If I had to guess, it wouldprobably be the answer,"Not
many." I know that for years, Icouldn't! Now listen, all of
these words (25:55):
Christian...
Spiritual...
worship...
give you a feeling that youthink you know what they mean.
And you think you know whatbehaviors are indicated.
But, factually, truthfully, whatdo they really mean?
And what are the real behaviorsthat"worship," and"Spiritual,"
and"Christian," would indicate?
John (26:16):
Yeah, and those are profound questions.
And that's why we're talking inthis episode about the"basics"
of Spirituality.
After all, how can we beSpiritual, if we don't even
understand the basic words ofSpirituality?
Owen (26:35):
Ouch.
That hurts.
Well...
and I think too, John, that'swhy so many Christians are
unspiritual these days.
Their Christian teachers-- ifthey have any!-- assume that
they know the meanings of thesewords.
And assume they know whatbehavior is indicated, if
somebody says,"worship," or"Spiritual."
John (26:55):
Yeah.
But we know that's not true.
They don't! And the worst partof it is, that their teachers
often don't know what the wordsmean either!
Owen (27:05):
Very true.
I know for years I stood in thepublic, and had no idea what I
was telling them.
Well, so if we're going todefine these words now-- these
key Christian words-- the nextweird question is:"Where would
we get the dictionary?
What type of dictionary would weuse to look up those
(27:26):
definitions?"
John (27:29):
Well, I know one thing, Owen.
We aren't-- we are not-- goingto use Webster's! We aren't
going to use Google! Or anyother modern source of
definitions.
Owen (27:40):
That's right.
I mean we keep...
I keep beating my little tindrum...
that we've got to go back to theFirst and Second Centuries.
Today, John, this is a weirdthought: If we're looking for a
dictionary for Christian words,the big problem is, that there
are too many of them! Thinkabout that a second.
So let's list some of thedictionaries that Christians use
(28:02):
today.
John (28:03):
Yeah, you're going to like this, because this is an
important principle.
Owen (28:08):
So...
let's say that we're going toask ourselves: Where does the
average Christian today get hisor her understanding of the most
common Christian words?
And the first place is, many ofthem take their definitions...
their understanding...
of Spiritual growth...
(28:29):
from the books, radio programs,(and) TV shows, produced by the
pastors of what we call the"mega-churches" today.
And they do that because theythink,"Well, mercy.
This person is a pastor of achurch that averages 2,000
people per service.
So they must be right."
John (28:51):
Yeah, that's true.
We see and hear programsproduced by the-- quote--
"mega-churches"-- end quote--every day.
And we accept their definitions.
In fact, we don't really haveanything to compare it to.
So we accept it...
their Christian words...
their definitions...
because they are from the"mega-churches."
Owen (29:12):
You got it! But, let's say we get smart.
And we say,"Look it, I'm justgoing to go deeper than what my
local pastor is telling me." Andso, other Christians take their
definitions from the groupcalled"The Great Evangelists" of
the 1700s and 1800s.
These were the people likeDwight L.
(29:32):
Moody, and John Wesley.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, okay.
These people were so popular intheir day! They had thousands of
people lined up in a pasture tolisten to them.
So they must have been right."
John (29:48):
Yeah, that's true again.
For example, I know these"GreatEvangelists" are required
reading in many Sunday schools,and even seminary classes.
Owen (29:58):
Absolutely, they are.
Let's say a person says,"Naah, Iwant to go a lot deeper." So,
there are other Christians whotake their definitions from"The
Great Reformers" of the MiddleAges.
These were the people like JohnCalvin, and Martin Luther.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, these Reformers were
so brave in their day.
(30:20):
They were facing being torturedfor what they were teaching.
They must have been right."
John (30:26):
Yeah, right.
Again,"The Great Reformers" arealso required reading.
I feel like I'm a broken record,Owen!
Owen (30:33):
( Chuckles.) Yes, indeed.
So well, but then again, we gothrough...
let's say a person said,"Look, Iwant to go absolutely as deep as
I can go." So, some Christiansthen are taking their definition
from the so-called"ChurchFathers" of the Fifth and Sixth
Centuries.
(30:54):
And these are writers like S t.
Jerome, and S t.
Augustine, and S t.
Gregory.
And they do that because theysay,"Well, look.
Those people were sophilosophical in their day.
So learned in their day.
They must have been, right."
John (31:10):
Yeah, I've known Christians who took definitions
from all these sources.
But I also see a pattern here.
It's this (31:18):
Very few Christians today are taking their
definitions...
their understanding of keyChristian words...
from the original Christians.
Owen (31:30):
Exactly.
Go back to the inventor.
Go back to the founder, everytime.
And that's exactly the problemthat we want our friends in
Podcast Land to see in thisepisode.
Not enough of us today aretaking our definitions of the
key Christian words...
the key Christian Fuzzy words...
(31:53):
from the writings, and symbols,and paintings, of the original
Christians in the First andSecond Centuries.
Well, who were these people?
These were the Christian writers-- these names may sound
familiar to you (32:06):
Peter...
Paul...
James...
John...
Luke in the First Century.
And then, lesser known (32:15):
Clement ...
Ignatius...
and the others in the SecondCentury.
John (32:21):
Yeah.
That's so, so, very interesting.
And actually it's theunderpinning of everything that
we are talking about.
So let's tell our friends onceagain why this is such a bad
thing.
Owen (32:35):
Well...
remember we said back inEpisodes 01 and 02, where we
were talking about"The TimeCapsule" in the First and Second
Centuries, that was the periodof time when the most accurate
evidence existed on whatChristianity was, and was meant
to be.
(32:55):
In other words, the fundamentalsof it.
The foundations of it.
And after that, the further wego away from there, through into
the Fourth Century and beyond,that accurate evidence just
simply fades away.
John (33:11):
So that means that Christians who take their
definitions from writers whowrote-- or who are writing--
after the Fourth Century, we canconclude, do not have the most
accurate definitions for theirwords.
Am I understanding thatcorrectly?
Owen (33:32):
Yeah, and I mean that's tragic.
Because they mean well.
It's not their fault.
They were taught that too.
(Right.) But think about it.
Any writer who wrote-- or is nowwriting-- after the Fourth
Century is either a member ofnow, or a former member of,
(33:54):
Institutional Christianity.
And so, no matter how hard theytry, they're heavily influenced
by the structure and traditionsof Institutional Christianity.
John (34:08):
Uh-huh.
It's the lens.
They're always looking.
So, Christian writers today,what you're saying is, they
can't help speaking and writingfrom the viewpoint of their
denominations or traditions.
And they define their Fuzzywords the way their
denominations define them.
(34:29):
Because their reputations andincome depend on it.
And, we might add, theyliterally...
and we don't mean thiscondescendingly...
don't know any better.
Owen (34:40):
Yeah.
That's true.
As you say so often, John,"Youdon't know what you don't know."
And I think that's a very(chuckles) insightful comment.
But look it, what that means is,their definitions for Christian
Spiritual worship are 1,700years removed from the
(35:00):
definitions of those words bythe original Christians.
Here's something we need toremember, John.
The denominations, as we knowthem today, were founded in the
Middle Ages.
They were not founded by theoriginal Christians.
Now, I know there are somedenominations...
I'm thinking of one specifically...
(35:22):
that claim that they werefounded by the Early Christians
in the First Century.
But they weren't.
We know they were founded byConstantine in the Fourth
Century.
John (35:34):
Yeah, and I know, as you're listening to this, that
this-- especially for the firsttime-- may sound just a little
heady.
But we can't emphasize enoughthat the point of all of this is
simple.
It's simply this (35:49):
If Christians don't...
if we don't...
understand the basic words forSpiritual growth, how are we
ever going to learn about, notonly learn but live, Spiritual
growth?
Owen (36:06):
Experience it! That's right.
Exactly.
And you know, John.
I too, join you.
I hope this doesn't sound tooharsh.
But back in Episode 01, we saidit was important to learn from
people who had known Jesus.
Or people who had known peoplewho had known Jesus.
(36:26):
And that's exactly what we'retalking about by taking our
definitions from the Middle ofthe First and Second Centuries.
John (36:34):
Yeah.
No, Owen.
I don't think this principle--excuse me-- I think this
principle is so important thatwe can't...
we can't...
be too harsh with it.
Owen (36:45):
Yeah.
Well...
so let's summarize what we'vesaid, then.
Ground Rule#1 is:"Define TheseKey Fuzzy Words." Ground Rule#2
is:"To Define Them Using OnlyFirst and Second Century
Definitions."
John (37:02):
And I think our first two ground rules:"Define Fuzzy
Words," and"Use First and SecondCentury Definitions," make
perfect sense.
And I don't see why anyone wouldnot...
we would not...
want to use them as ourresource.
Owen (37:19):
Yeah! Because what would be holding us back?
What would we be afraid of?
Well...
so now, here's#3.
Here's our last, and could be(our), most important Ground
Rule.
And it's this.
These word meanings that we'retalking about are:"Models for
Behavior."
John (37:39):
Hmm.
Wow.
I think that's going to be abiggie, Owen.
Very few Christians use EarlyChristian word meanings as
models for daily behavior.
Owen (37:50):
Yeah, think about it.
I mean, that's sad, but true.
To be again"deathbed honest,"most Christians just behave the
way each day that thenon-Christians around them are
behaving.
And you know, we'll talk aboutPeer Group Pressure-- a great
big subject-- in anotherepisode.
But, that is exactly the reasonwhy the national polls show no
(38:14):
Spiritual difference betweenChristians and non-Christians.
So, a big part of Defining FuzzyWords is knowing what behavior
...
what daily behavior...
they're indicating for usChristians.
Like we've said, Christianity isa supernatural experience.
(38:37):
It's a religion of supernaturalbehavior.
It's not a religion ofintellectual ideas for us to sit
around and debate.
John (38:48):
Yeah, and as we've said so often, that's why Christianity
spread worldwide in only 70years.
Non-Christians saw thesupernatural behavior that the
Christians had.
And they wanted it too.
I'm sure they did.
That's why we're doing this.
(39:09):
And so they became Christians toget it.
Owen (39:12):
Yeah, John.
And let's read that backwards.
Think about this.
If Christians had not hadsupernatural behavior in the
First Century, Christianitywould not have spread worldwide,
and there wouldn't be anyChristians today.
John (39:29):
Huh.
A lot of us have never thoughtof it that way! I think that's a
vital principle.
Owen (39:34):
So...
let's go even deeper with that.
One of the reasons whyChristianity is in crisis today
is because it no longer teachesthat Christianity is
supernatural behavior.
When have you ever heardsomebody tell you that?
Today, it's largely a"DebateClub." We sit around with tea
(39:58):
and cookies, and we debate.
And we tell one another what wethink we can do, and will do,
and don't believe, and dobelieve.
John (40:07):
Yeah, we sit around and ask one another opinion
questions.
I understand completely.
Things like:"Do you think theseare the end times?" And,"Do you
think people in heaven can seewhat we're doing?"
Owen (40:20):
I heard that this week! (Chuckles.) But listen, John.
As my wife's mother used to say,"In the light of eternity, what
do these questions matter?" Thefact is, they don't help us have
supernatural behavior each day.
You know what?
They probably detract from it.
John (40:41):
Yeah, I think so.
So, here's the point.
That one of the emphases of ourpodcast is: Christianity isn't
an opinion.
Right?
It's a supernatural experience.
And that means the more"OpinionQuestions" we ask each other,
the more like a"Debate Club" webecome.
Owen (41:03):
(Chuckles.) That's a good lesson, John.
You know...
again...
I say back in Episodes 01 and02, we were talking about
behavior in those episodes.
And you know what?
We said that the EarlyChristians were originally
called, Followers of The Way.
They were not called,"Followersof The Opinion."(Right!) So
John, here's the principle (41:25):
The definitions that the Early
Christians wrote about...
and their definitions weredefinitions of Spiritual
behavior.
They were tools for teachingSpiritual behavior.
We don't often see that.
And that's why those samedefinitions are so necessary
(41:47):
today.
John (41:49):
Yeah, and that's why our episodes are...
that's what they're all about.
And we're excited, because we'regoing to talk about what those
original Early Christians...
how they defined this.
Owen (42:04):
That's right.
Absolutely.
Well John, here we go again.
I see from the big clock on thewall that it's almost time to
close.
But let's summarize.
So, we've talked about"TheSpiritual basics." And we've
said that there's a lack ofunderstanding of the Spiritual
(42:26):
basics today.
And that's causing-- that's thereason why-- so many Christians
are confused about Spiritualgrowth.
John (42:36):
Yes, and now we know why people are confused.
It's because no one is givingthem the original definitions
for Christianity's key-- what wecall"Fuzzy words." So we're
doing that in these episodes.
Owen (42:56):
That's right.
And you know, here's thisimportant fact again.
When defined correctly, theseChristian words, like"worship"
...
like"Spiritual"...
like"Christian"...
are behavior words.
They're not opinion words.
And that's why, John, we say sooften-- you said it at the top
(43:16):
of the show:"If we do"-- that'sbehavior--"If we do what they
did, we'll have what they have."
John (43:26):
Yeah, and Owen, I just recently(had) a conversation
with someone who made thestatement-- it's just so true--
that actions always trump ourwords.
They will always carry the day.
Our actions over what we say.
So we can't, we cannot,overemphasize the importance of
(43:48):
that.
Christianity is a matter ofbehavior.
Of actions.
Not opinions and words.
Spiritual growth is a behavior.
It's a lifestyle.
It's not opinion.
Owen (44:02):
That's so, so well said, John! Well...
so look, as we come to the closeof the episode, let's review.
There are three Ground Rules.
Because listen, we're going touse them from now on.
Ground Rule#1 (44:16):
Define Our Key Fuzzy Words.
Ground Rule#2 (44:20):
Define Them With First and Second Century
Definitions.
And Ground Rule#3 (44:25):
Use Those Meanings as Models for Behavior.
Not as goals or items of debate.
So, we're going to stick tothese now in our future
episodes, and not say probablymuch more about it.
We're just going to do it.
(44:47):
So I don't know, John...
I think as we close, this hasbeen one of our most important
episodes.
John (44:53):
Yeah, it clearly has been.
And our friends should rememberthat this is Episode 08, and
that pictures, a script, and arecording of it-- all of these--
are on our podcast website,along with all the other
episodes in the series.
Owen (45:12):
That's right.
And remember, as we said earlier, our new podcast address is:
www.goSCpod.com.
And that's G-O-S-C-P-O-D...
goSCpod.com.
Of course, the old address, thatwe've given you in earlier
(45:34):
episodes, CFOpods.com, is stillgood.
And also, listen, remember thatthese episodes are a series.
And we're giving a new episodeevery-other-Tuesday.
But the episodes are connectedsequentially.
So, they build on one another.
(45:55):
And we hope and pray that you'llgo back, if you haven't, and
listen to the original...
some of the earlier episodesthat build up to this one.
But anyway, for now, this isOwen Allen...
John (46:08):
...
and this is John Shields,together with our producer,
Shannon Wolfe...
Owen (46:13):
...
saying (46:13):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (46:34):
Owen and John end the episode.
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