March 30, 2021 • 40 mins
The convention that met in San Francisco to discover why there's so much trouble in the world. The definition of a "natural" person, and the truth about human nature. Where fear and hate come from – and the biggest challenge that people face, with one decision that every person must make.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying:
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, hello again friends, and welcome.
Or welcome back.
This is Episode 09 in ourbi-weekly series of the"Saving
Christianity" episodes.
And we're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday, from
Christian Family Online.
I'm your host, John Shields.
And in this episode, we're goingto continue our discussion of
the"Spiritual basics" that westarted in the previous episode.
(00:41):
We're going to continue talkingabout what people call the
"Deeper Walk." In other words,talking about how to be more
Spiritual.
So that our loved ones (00:51):
How we can have more peace, healing,
and hope.
And as I say, most days, I thinkthat's something that we all
want more of.
Now, the title of this episodeis"The Natural Person."
(Repeats.) And it's going to beone of our most challenging
(01:18):
episodes.
I promise.
Because we're going to revealsome things that you've probably
never heard before.
But stick with us to the end.
If you do, this episode is goingto give some very Spiritual
insight that can permanentlychange your way of thinking
(01:40):
about Christianity, andChristian Spiritual growth.
Now, I know that's saying a lot,and promising a lot.
But stay to the end.
And I don't think you'll bedisappointed.
But first, let's pause here tointroduce our co-host, Owen
Allen.
Owen (01:57):
Well, thank you, John.
And hello friends! Greetings toall of you out there in Podcast
Land.
We're still in Chapter 6 of thebook, Saving Christianity.
So I hope you've read thatchapter.
But even if you haven't, you'regoing to be challenged by what
you're about to hear.
You know, to tell you the truth,Christianity in some senses,
(02:22):
requires some courage.
It requires being willing tothink about new ways, and
something different, and tobelieve that something better
can and will happen.
So that's what this is allabout.
That's what we're talking aboutin these podcasts.
(02:43):
And so John, if we're going tocontinue with"The Spiritual
Basics" where we left offpreviously and...
our friends, they may need toreview Episode 08.
The one that just came beforehere.
And if they can do that, bygoing to our podcast website at:
goSCpod.com.
(03:07):
www.goSCpod.com, on theInternet, they can do that.
John (03:14):
Right, and now we're going a lot deeper today into this
subject of Spiritual basics.
And I think it's going to bechallenging to everyone.
Owen (03:25):
I think so too.
In fact, I'm sure of it.
Our friends will remember thatin the previous episode, we
talked about how to"Define FuzzyWords" the way the original
Christians defined them.
And we talked about using thoseoriginal meanings as"Models for
Daily Behavior." So, in thisepisode now, we're about to use
(03:50):
those techniques for the veryfirst time.
John (03:54):
Yeah, that's true.
So, why don't we...
let's just start in the usualplace.
Even though(chuckles) that makessome people uncomfortable.
Owen (04:03):
Yeah, we might as well meet the problem"head-on," as
they say.
(Yes.) And so let's start bytelling our friends-- maybe
they've wondered about this inthe dark of night-- why there's
so much trouble in the world.
And to do that, let's tell them,John, what happened at that
famous medical convention in SanFrancisco.
John (04:26):
Uh-huh.
Okay, let's do that.
That's definitely where we needto start.
Because it's a true story thatneeds telling.
And also because it highlightsthe key to Spiritual growth.
Owen (04:39):
Right! So here's the story.
Now this is in Chapter 6 of thebook.
But let's skim through it here.
Several years ago, 2,400 of themost famous psychiatrists in the
world met in San Francisco,California for a convention.
Now, we all know thatpsychiatrists are medical
(05:01):
doctors.
But they're MDs who specializein treating people's emotional
problems.
And, this group met for a veryinteresting and important
purpose.
Here was their purpose, why theymet! 2,400 of them met to decide
(05:23):
what the w orld's most serioustroubles are.
And then to tell the world whatto do about those most serious
trouble.
John (05:35):
And that was a pretty tall order, wasn't it?
Weren't they biting off a littlemore than they could chew, as
they say?
Owen (05:42):
Yes, and it has turned out, they were.
(Chuckles.) They did bite offmore than they could chew.
But listen, on the other hand,to be fair about it, think about
how important their assignmentwas.
I mean, I respect them for that.
Imagine what it would be like ifwe all knew the cause of drug
(06:03):
abuse...
theft...
divorce...
murder...
war...
all the other troubles in theworld.
And-- imagine if we knew what todo about those troubles!
John (06:13):
Well, that would be an "earthquake discovery" to say
the least.
That would be a discovery thatwould change the world.
But let's talk about whatactually happened.
Did they find the cause of theworld's troubles?
And did they tell the world whatto do about it?
Owen (06:31):
Well...
the answers are the old,"Yes andNo." They did make a good list
of the world's most serioustroubles.
And I think that was good.
And they did issue a report tothe media about those troubles.
And those were steps in theright direction.
But-- the group failed in twoimportant ways.
John (06:52):
Yeah, I think they failed in the two most important ways.
And I think our listeners willfind this fascinating.
Owen (07:01):
Yeah.
So here's what happened.
The psychologists failed in twoways.
First...
oh, the psychiatrists, I meantto say...
failed in two ways.
First, they didn't tell themedia what's causing-- what's
causing-- the world troubles.
And that's disappointing.
But second, the solution theyrecommended for solving the
(07:23):
world's troubles, to me, didn'tmake any sense.
And that was disappointing, too.
John (07:29):
Yes, and those two failures pretty much invalidated
(chuckles) their convention.
But let's tell our friends whatthe psychiatrists did report to
the media.
Owen (07:42):
Yeah, this is important.
This was carried in all thenewspapers.
Their report was in four parts.
Part number one (07:47):
This is very, very important.
They reported that peopleworldwide, people everywhere,
are breaking more moral codestoday than at any other time in
history.
Think about that a second.
(08:07):
In other words, people are moreunspiritual today than at any
other time in world history.
Number two (08:14):
They reported that this is true of all people
everywhere.
In other words, it's true inevery language...
every nation...
every culture...
every religion.
Everyone in the world is havingexactly the same troubles.
(08:34):
Think about that a second.
And then they reported-- the2,400 psychiatrists reported--
that the reason that people arebreaking all these moral codes
is because they are lonely, anddepressed, and filled with fear
...
(08:56):
hate...
lust...
greed...
envy...
selfishness...
and sexual perversion.
And now, hang on.
Number four part of theirreport: The solution they
recommended to solve thesehorrible troubles was the
standard psychiatric solution.
(09:18):
They said that everyone in theworld should lie down on a couch
and let their fantasies emerge.
John (09:28):
Owen! If this wasn't so serious, it would be...
ahh, I don't even have a wordfor it.
It's certainly illogical.
Because there aren't enoughpsychiatrists in the world, or
enough psychiatric couches inthe world, to have everyone
(laughs) on earth lie down andlet their fantasies emerge.
Owen (09:51):
It is.
And John, in some ways it'sfunny.
As the old joke goes, you know,you(chuckles) have to laugh it
hurts so bad.
Well, but I think their solutionwas even more illogical than
that.
Even if there were enoughpsychiatrists.
Even if the were enough couches.
I don't think the solution wouldwork anyway.
(10:12):
Why?
Because I don't think lettingpeople's fantasies emerge is a
good cure for drug abuse...
theft...
divorce...
murder...
and war, do you?
John (10:24):
No.
Not at all.
But we certainly don't believethat.
But let's explain a littlefurther what we mean.
Owen (10:32):
Well, we've talked about this, John.
But I think that lettingpeople's fantasies emerge is the
cause of trouble.
A cause, at least, of it.
Not a cure for it.
Think about this.
Now be honest.
If people fantasize about havingan affair, they'll probably end
(10:55):
up having one.
If people fantasize aboutstealing a piece of jewelry,
they'll probably end up stealingit.
So I think that fantasizing is acause of trouble.
Not a cure.
John (11:10):
That seems clear to me.
But that also means we need tofind two answers for world
trouble (11:16):
We need to know what's causing it.
And we need to know the cure forit.
Owen (11:23):
Exactly.
And the good news is, we'regoing to give those two answers
in these episodes.
And to get us started, let'sdeal with our first"Fuzzy" word
of the podcast.
We talked about this lastepisode.
But let's define this Fuzzy wordin the way that we learned in
(11:44):
the previous episode.
John (11:46):
Okay, so here's the Fuzzy word
referred to some people as"natural" people.
But the word"natural" is a Fuzzyword.
It has more than one meaning.
And it indicates more than onebehavior.
(12:06):
So, we need to define the word"natural" the way the first
Christians defined it.
Owen (12:14):
Absolutely right.
And so now let's use thetechnique that we learned in the
last episode.
Let's ask the Fuzzy wordquestion.
And here we go:"What did theoriginal Christians mean by
[NATURAL] people?""What did theymean by-- quotes--'NATURAL'
(12:34):
people?"
John (12:35):
And that's the way we learned to use the Fuzzy word
question in the previousepisode.
And we can use it to define anyChristian word that's Fuzzy.
But, what did the originalChristians mean by"NATURAL"
people?
Owen (12:53):
Okay, and following our Ground Rule#2 from the last
episode, we go to the First andSecond Centuries for the
original meaning.
And what those Christians meantby"natural" people was:
Non-Christians! A natural personwas their term for a
(13:13):
non-Christian.
John (13:15):
That's right.
The Early Christians callednon-Christians"natural" people.
And to prove that, let's giveour listeners an example from
Early Christian writing.
Owen (13:28):
Right.
Let's go back to the Middle ofthe First Century.
Let's go back to 56 AD.
And the apostle Paul was livingin Ephesus, Turkey at the time.
And while he was there, he wrotea letter back to his Christian
friends...
(his) brothers and sisters...
in the small groups of Corinth,Greece.
(13:50):
And in that letter, Paul madethe following statement about
non-Christians.
And let me quote it.
Here he goes.
He said-- quote--"The naturalperson..." Now stop.
Time out.
He's talking aboutnon-Christians there.
Right?
Listen to what he says aboutthem:(para)"The'natural' person
(14:12):
can't understand the things thatcome from the Spirit of God.
They're foolishness to him orher.
Because Spiritual things canonly be Spiritually understood."
And he means there that...
because non-Christians don'thave the Spirit.
(14:35):
So you can see that they wereusing this word"natural"-- they
were using the Greek word for it-- but they were using this word
"natural" to indicate people whowere non-Christians, and who did
not understand, and could notunderstand, things that came
(14:56):
from the Holy Spirit.
John (14:58):
Yeah, I know that I have thought for years, and have said
to people, that this is one ofthe most insightful passages of
scripture.
That explains so much.
Paul is...
in this, he's also giving anextremely important fact for our
friends to remember (15:16):
Spiritual things can only be Spiritually
understood.
We need to memorize that.
Owen (15:28):
Yeah, we need to paste that on our forehead.
Or on our shaving mirror, orsomething.
Nothing could be more important.
But listen.
This is the key.
We promised this at the top ofthe show.
That's the key to a"DeeperWalk." That's what we're saying
here.
Paul is saying"natural" people--non-Christians-- the reason they
(15:49):
can't understand Spiritualthings is because they don't
have the Holy Spirit.
Think about it.
If they did...
if a non-Christian did have theHoly spirit...
he or she could understandSpiritual things.
And that's the most, one of themost, important facts in human
(16:09):
history.
John (16:10):
Yeah, and to reiterate that
the most important thing we'regoing to be talking about in
these episodes.
Owen (16:20):
There you go! You talk about a key! So, to be
completely sure that our friendsin Podcast Land have this.
Now let's repeat it:"Natural"people-- quotes, Fuzzy word--
"natural" people, arenon-Christians.
And they're non- Spiritual.
And they're non- Spiritualbecause they don't have the Holy
(16:44):
Spirit...
hold on...
so they live"natural" lives.
And that's why the EarlyChristians called them"natural"
people.
John (16:57):
I don't have the words to tell our friends how important
this definition is.
It's desperately necessary forall of us to have the Holy
Spirit, so we can live Spirituallives.
Owen (17:13):
Well.
So the lesson is this (17:14):
If we understand"natural" people, we
understand how people becomeChristians.
And if we understand that, weunderstand the difference
between a Christian and anon-Christian.
Which, I may say John, manypeople cannot tell you what is
(17:36):
the difference between aChristian and a non-Christian!
John (17:40):
And the bigger lesson is that becoming a Christian is the
only way we can gain more peace,healing, and hope.
Because those come from the HolySpirit.
Owen (17:54):
Bingo.
How important, how important.
So, let's start understandingwhat the Early Christians called
"natural" people.
And to do that, let's talk abouttheir behavior.
Because"natural" people arecalled*natural* people because
they behave*naturally*.
(18:15):
So let's ask ourselves a bigquestion: What is-- what is--
*natural* behavior?
John (18:23):
Now we've opened the door to the subject of"motivators."
Because we're really talkingabout*natural* motivation.
So let's talk about that alittle more.
Owen (18:37):
Yeah.
This is another very importantword.
It's not in the Early Christianwriting.
But"motivator" comes from aLatin verb that means,"to move."
So*motivators* are drives, orurges, deep inside us, that move
us to*behave*.
(18:59):
They create our outer behavior.
So you could say, here would bethe definition:(para)
"Motivators" are inner drives,urges, that create the emotions
in us that produce our outerbehavior."
John (19:15):
Right.
Now we're beginning to get thewhole picture.
We said that loneliness and fearand hate are the causes of the
world's troubles.
(Right.) And those are emotions.
But they are*negative* emotions.
And we need to tell our friendswhere those negative emotions
(19:36):
come from.
Owen (19:37):
Isn't that interesting?
Wouldn't that be important?
So, here's the answer (19:40):
There is a motivator-- a motivator; it's
one motivator-- inside each ofus, that produces the*negative*
emotions of loneliness, andfear, and hate, and all the
other unspiritual motivationsthat all of us feel at times.
(20:05):
And those"unspiritual emotions"-- let's call them that-- they
are what is creating drug abuse,and crime, and divorce, and war,
and all the other troubles inthe world.
John (20:19):
Yes.
And let's tell our friends whatthat motivator is in us.
Let's talk about that innerdrive that creates*negative*
emotions in people, and thatproduces*unspiritual* behavior
in us.
Owen (20:36):
See, I don't know what could be more important, John.
This is what those 2,400psychiatrists in Frisco should
have been working on.
But let me say this.
We all need to tighten ourshoulder harness and our seat
belt.
Because this is where it getschallenging.
We promised(chuckles) at the topof the show that it would be.
(20:59):
Because...
and the original Christians werehonest.
They were more direct and morefactual than we are today.
Just to tell the truth.
John (21:10):
Yeah, that's true.
But so, regardless of that.
Let's tough it out.
And let's talk about what themotivator is that makes us
unspiritual.
Owen (21:21):
Okay.
Well, first we need to rememberthat the Early Christians wrote
in Greek.
So that was the internationallanguage of their day.
And they had a specific Greekword for this motivator that
we're talking about-- the onethat makes us unspiritual.
(21:42):
And that Greek word literallytranslates into English as
"flesh." As human flesh.
Like the*flesh* on our bones.
But figuratively...
and that's how they were usingit...
it translates into English as--hang on-- the Selfish Human
Nature.
John (22:02):
Hmm.
I'm thinking, Owen, maybe weneed to slow down just a moment.
Let's tap the brakes.
I want to be sure that everyone...
that we're getting this.
Because this is one of the mostimportant facts in our episodes.
We're saying that the EarlyChristians taught that basic
(22:24):
human nature is*selfish*.
Owen (22:29):
Aha! So, let's repeat that
taught that basic human natureis*selfish*.
In other words,"natural"behavior is*selfish* behavior.
Or, to say it another way,non-Christian behavior is
*selfish* behavior.
John (22:51):
Wow.
Now this is where it getschallenging.
Because many of us have beentaught that humans are basically
*good*.
And we've been taught that-- allthings, other things-- being
equal.
That people always do the rightthing in situations.
Owen (23:13):
Yeah.
I was taught that.
Probably everybody listening wastaught that.
But, it's not true.
That idea, that principle,doesn't pass the"smell test" of
everyday practical living.
Anyone who has any lifeexperience at all, knows that
(23:35):
people-- listen to this-- people*don't* always do the kind,
gentle, loving, thing in dailysituations.
John (23:47):
Yeah, unfortunately.
And we explained all of that soclearly in the book, Saving
Christianity.
So let's read one of my favoriteparagraphs from Chapter 6 in the
book.
Owen (24:00):
Yeah.
I believe you're talking aboutthat paragraph, John, that we
like on page 77 of Chapter 6.
But let's quote it here.
And I quote:(para)"What else butconceit and arrogance could
cause the crime...
drug abuse...
divorce...
child abuse...
adultery...
(24:20):
pornography...
wars...
drive-by shootings...
workplace massacres...
that we see all around us.
Only the*negative* emotions ofthe Selfish Human Nature can
explain all of that.
So, the beginning-- here we go--the beginning of Spiritual
(24:41):
growth is to accept the factthat human nature, human nature,
is*not* Spiritual.
That's just common sense.
And every-- listen-- everyreligion in the world teaches
it.
A lot of people don't know that.
The only difference betweenChristianity and all the other
(25:05):
religions of the world, is thatChristianity emphasizes the fact
that human nature is*not*Spiritual.
And teaches what to*do* aboutit.
John (25:19):
That paragraph teaches us everything we need to know about
human nature.
And it also teaches us thecause-and-effect linkage that
proves human nature is thesource of all the trouble in the
world.
Owen (25:37):
Yeah.
Cause-and-effect linkages.
I taught that for years inmanagement classes.
Let's look at three quick links.
Link#1 (25:45):
The Selfish Human Nature in people-- what the Early
Christians called our"flesh"--creates negative emotions in us.
Emotions, if you want somesamples, like greed, pride,
lust, and hate.
(26:06):
Now those negative emotionstrigger Link#2.
These negative emotions createnegative outer behavior in
people, like drug abuse, childabuse, adultery, divorce, crime,
and so on.
And then, third link(Link#3).
(26:27):
All of these negative outerbehaviors in people create all
the trouble in the world-- wars,poverty, failing economies,
disease, and so on and so forth.
John (26:40):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking as I'm sittinghere, Owen, that it that helps
us to understand why peopledon't understand.
That's a clear explanation ofthe world's troubles.
And it shows that the world'stroubles link right back to the
human-- there is an answer tothis!-- To the human"flesh" in
(27:02):
people.
That's right back to the SelfishHuman Nature.
Owen (27:08):
Well, that's right, John.
And listen.
No amount of teaching-- and it*is* taught-- no amount of
teaching that humans are born*good*...
humans are born*good*...
can deny that linkage.
Here's a quick example.
One teaching that I've heard inthe classroom, is that all
(27:28):
humans are born*good*.
But then when they grow up andenter society, they turn*bad*,
because society is*bad*.
But you can prove that's falseby asking yourself one question
(chuckles):"If all people areborn*good*, then where did*bad*
society come from!"
John (27:46):
( Laughter.) Exactly! Sometimes we don't think things
through to a common senseconclusion.
And as we said, it's just plaincommon sense that human nature
is basically*selfish*.
And that's why all the religionsin the world teach that.
And Owen, I think about it froma very practical level.
(28:09):
With our four children, I neverhad to teach our children to do
*bad*.
(Whoa.) It came"naturally" tothem.
(Laughter.) But we did have toteach them to do*good* and to do
*right*.
Owen (28:22):
(Laughs.) You talk about common sense, John.
It's like the old farmer said: "It's only common sense. (28:27):
undefined
But sense ain't so common!"(Laughter.) Well, let's go back
to the big challenge for amoment, John.
I don't want to lose this.
We said earlier that thisepisode was very challenging.
Here's the challenge (28:42):
Most people-- many people--*deny*
that human nature is selfish.
And whenever they hear somebodysay...
like we're saying right now...
that human nature is selfish,they immediately start having
some thoughts.
And here's probably what'sthey're thinking:(para)"No, wait
(29:04):
a minute.
Wait a minute.
That may be true of others.
But it's not true of me.
Naturally, I make an occasionalmistake.
Who doesn't?
But, my basic nature isn'tselfish.
It's kind, and generous, and Ialways try to do the right thing
(29:24):
in every situation."
John (29:26):
Yeah, I've definitely gotten some push back on that
one in the classroom.
I've heard many people say thatmany times.
And they say it with acompletely straight face.
Owen (29:35):
Uh-huh.
That's right.
But see, John, the very fact(laughing) that people have
these thoughts prove that humannature is*selfish*.
Because only a self-centeredperson could say all that with a
straight face.
John (29:51):
Hmm.
Yeah, what's funny is that whenpeople have these kinds of
thoughts...
we're only proving that thisEarly Christian teaching is
truth.
Because these thoughtsthemselves are*selfish*.
Owen (30:06):
Yeah, and they're also a trap.
Because listen.
They prevent people from growingSpiritually.
And*that*...
dear friends...
is the big lesson in thisepisode, and the big take-away
from Episode 09.
So let's repeat it.
The key to Spiritual growth isto admit that our basic nature
(30:31):
is*selfish*.
(Starting point!) Amen.
To admit that human flesh isselfish.
Because as long as we believewe're*not* selfish, we can't
grow Spiritually.
Why?
Here we go:*Because the purposeof Spiritual growth is to
(30:52):
overcome selfishness*.
(Repeats.) So, if we cling tothe belief that we're*not*
selfish...
we'll never grow Spiritually.
John (31:06):
Yeah...
as long as we live with thismentality that's so common:"I'm
Okay- You're Okay."(Chuckles.)As long as we deny that our
basic nature is self-centered.
Ah, I struggle with why we denythat.
We prevent our own Spiritualgrowth.
And that's why many people don'tgrow.
(31:29):
They've never been willing toadmit that they're selfish.
Owen (31:34):
Well, in Chapter 6 of the book, Saving Christianity, that
chapter closes with a*decision*-- it's right there in the book
-- that every person needs tomake at some point in their
lives.
And that*decision* offers themthree alternatives.
(31:57):
And here they are.
(para?) Alternative#1 (31:57):
I can accept the Early Christian
teaching that my inner humannature, my flesh, is lustful,
proud, selfish, andself-centered.
Or Alternative#2 (32:12):
I can deny that Early Christian teaching,
and cling to the worldlyteaching that human nature is
good, and sweet, and humble.
Or, and this is very popular,Alternative#3: I can avoid that
(32:34):
teaching, and leave it to thinkabout some other day.
John (32:40):
Hmm.
While our life is imploding!(Chuckles.) But our point is
this.
We're asking our friends out inPodcast Land, wherever you're
listening to this...
driving down the road...
to make this decision now.
Right here in this episode.
Because the choice that we make-- that*you* make-- listening to
(33:01):
this right now, will determinehow much you can grow
Spiritually in future episodesof this podcast.
Owen (33:11):
That's sooo, sooo true.
Sooo, if our friends listeningto this episode*can* accept the
fact, as they listen to thesewords, that everybody's human
nature is basically selfish.
They will have taken the firstgiant step towards Spiritual
growth.
(33:32):
You know, John.
You and I took that step manyyears ago.
We accepted the fact that wewere selfish.
And our lives were never thesame.
John (33:42):
Right.
Absolutely.
And that's the big challenge wepromised our friends at the top
of the show.
The question now is (33:50):
Can you-- can our listeners, can our
friends-- face your ownselfishness?
And I think you can.
And I believe that you will.
Owen (34:04):
Me too, John.
I think it, too.
Ditto that! And everyone whoaccepts this Early Christian,
ancient 2000-year-old teaching,that human nature is selfish,
immediately-- that second!--Immediately starts to grow
Spiritually.
John (34:24):
Right.
That's because Spiritual growthstarts with that decision.
It starts with admitting ourselfishness.
And that's why the EarlyChristians called human nature
our"Sin Nature." They called itthat because our human nature is
what creates a sinful behaviorin us.
Owen (34:47):
That's right.
And you know, John.
I'm sitting here thinking.
There's an old saying inmanagement that I used to teach:
"You can eat an*elephant*, ifyou take small enough bites."
(Repeats.) So we want ourfriends to take one small bite
(35:07):
in this episode.
Don't get ahead of the game.
Don't get alarmed.
Just one small decision...
one small bite...
in this episode.
Well, John, I tell you what I'deven like to do.
And I think this is the firsttime we've done this in our
episodes.
Let's stop right here, and prayfor our friends out there in
(35:31):
Podcast Land.
Whether they're in their car, intheir kitchen, wherever they are
right this minute, that they'llbe able to accept that ancient,
proven fact that all humannature-- yours, mine, theirs--
is basically selfish.
John (35:48):
Yeah.
And left to ourselves, we can'tfix it.
So let's pray for them:(para)Lord, we ask you right now to
help every person listening tothis episode to accept the Early
Christian teaching that we'vebeen talking about-- that human
nature is selfish, and we do nothave, in and of ourselves, the
(36:15):
remedy for it.
So as I say so often, the mostexciting thing is that that God
offers to us the solution (36:24):
That He will do for us what we cannot
do for ourselves.
And it begins as we admit this.
And that He gives us that partof Him that we call the Holy
Spirit.
We thank You now for what Youare doing in the lives of
(36:49):
countless people.
And we pray this in Your son,Jesus, His name.
Amen.
Owen (36:57):
And, amen.
Thank you, John.
And let me tell you out there inPodcast Land-- all our dear
friends-- John and I actuallypray for you every day, pray for
you daily, during our devotionaltime.
And we'll continue to do that aswe discuss our way through these
episodes.
(37:17):
But John, the big clock on thewall(laughter) is hollering at
me again, and saying it's timeto close.
But I think this has beenanother wonderful episode.
John (37:28):
Yes, it has.
And I think Episode 10 will bean even bigger step forward in
Spiritual growth.
Because it's going to describefor the first time our unique
*diagrams* that show howSpiritual growth works.
And I...
Owen, I can speak for myself ofjust my first exposure is
(37:52):
something that is etched in mymind and in my heart.
It's something that I've usedfor many years now teaching.
Owen (38:01):
Well, you know, John, I'll just...
I've said it before, I'll say itagain.
I don't know of any otherpodcast on the Internet that
explains the things that we'reexplaining.
And, the*diagrams* that we'regoing to start in the next
episode are unique.
I don't know of any other placeon the Internet, or anywhere
(38:22):
else, that they exist.
John (38:23):
Yeah, that's right.
And no one else that I'm awarehas them.
And frankly, I am anxious tostart showing them next.
Owen (38:33):
And we will.
In the meantime, our friendsneed to remember that this is
Episode 09.
And a script and recording of itare on our podcast website, with
our new Internet address: www.goSCpod.com. (38:44):
undefined
And obviously,"SC" means"SavingChristianity." www.goSCpod.com.
Even though the old address,www.CFOpods.com still works.
(39:05):
Remember, these episodes are aseries.
A new episode we're publishingevery-other-Tuesday.
They're connected.
They're in sequence.
And if you haven't been able to,please go all the way back to
the first episode and listenforward, so that you don't miss
anything-- as these facts buildupon one another.
(39:29):
But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (39:33):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf
...
Owen (39:38):
...
saying (39:38):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (39:58):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying:
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, hello again friends, and welcome.
Or welcome back.
This is Episode 09 in ourbi-weekly series of the"Saving
Christianity" episodes.
And we're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday, from
Christian Family Online.
I'm your host, John Shields.
And in this episode, we're goingto continue our discussion of
the"Spiritual basics" that westarted in the previous episode.
(00:41):
We're going to continue talkingabout what people call the
"Deeper Walk." In other words,talking about how to be more
Spiritual.
So that our loved ones (00:51):
How we can have more peace, healing,
and hope.
And as I say, most days, I thinkthat's something that we all
want more of.
Now, the title of this episodeis"The Natural Person."
(Repeats.) And it's going to beone of our most challenging
(01:18):
episodes.
I promise.
Because we're going to revealsome things that you've probably
never heard before.
But stick with us to the end.
If you do, this episode is goingto give some very Spiritual
insight that can permanentlychange your way of thinking
(01:40):
about Christianity, andChristian Spiritual growth.
Now, I know that's saying a lot,and promising a lot.
But stay to the end.
And I don't think you'll bedisappointed.
But first, let's pause here tointroduce our co-host, Owen
Allen.
Owen (01:57):
Well, thank you, John.
And hello friends! Greetings toall of you out there in Podcast
Land.
We're still in Chapter 6 of thebook, Saving Christianity.
So I hope you've read thatchapter.
But even if you haven't, you'regoing to be challenged by what
you're about to hear.
You know, to tell you the truth,Christianity in some senses,
(02:22):
requires some courage.
It requires being willing tothink about new ways, and
something different, and tobelieve that something better
can and will happen.
So that's what this is allabout.
That's what we're talking aboutin these podcasts.
(02:43):
And so John, if we're going tocontinue with"The Spiritual
Basics" where we left offpreviously and...
our friends, they may need toreview Episode 08.
The one that just came beforehere.
And if they can do that, bygoing to our podcast website at:
goSCpod.com.
(03:07):
www.goSCpod.com, on theInternet, they can do that.
John (03:14):
Right, and now we're going a lot deeper today into this
subject of Spiritual basics.
And I think it's going to bechallenging to everyone.
Owen (03:25):
I think so too.
In fact, I'm sure of it.
Our friends will remember thatin the previous episode, we
talked about how to"Define FuzzyWords" the way the original
Christians defined them.
And we talked about using thoseoriginal meanings as"Models for
Daily Behavior." So, in thisepisode now, we're about to use
(03:50):
those techniques for the veryfirst time.
John (03:54):
Yeah, that's true.
So, why don't we...
let's just start in the usualplace.
Even though(chuckles) that makessome people uncomfortable.
Owen (04:03):
Yeah, we might as well meet the problem"head-on," as
they say.
(Yes.) And so let's start bytelling our friends-- maybe
they've wondered about this inthe dark of night-- why there's
so much trouble in the world.
And to do that, let's tell them,John, what happened at that
famous medical convention in SanFrancisco.
John (04:26):
Uh-huh.
Okay, let's do that.
That's definitely where we needto start.
Because it's a true story thatneeds telling.
And also because it highlightsthe key to Spiritual growth.
Owen (04:39):
Right! So here's the story.
Now this is in Chapter 6 of thebook.
But let's skim through it here.
Several years ago, 2,400 of themost famous psychiatrists in the
world met in San Francisco,California for a convention.
Now, we all know thatpsychiatrists are medical
(05:01):
doctors.
But they're MDs who specializein treating people's emotional
problems.
And, this group met for a veryinteresting and important
purpose.
Here was their purpose, why theymet! 2,400 of them met to decide
(05:23):
what the w orld's most serioustroubles are.
And then to tell the world whatto do about those most serious
trouble.
John (05:35):
And that was a pretty tall order, wasn't it?
Weren't they biting off a littlemore than they could chew, as
they say?
Owen (05:42):
Yes, and it has turned out, they were.
(Chuckles.) They did bite offmore than they could chew.
But listen, on the other hand,to be fair about it, think about
how important their assignmentwas.
I mean, I respect them for that.
Imagine what it would be like ifwe all knew the cause of drug
(06:03):
abuse...
theft...
divorce...
murder...
war...
all the other troubles in theworld.
And-- imagine if we knew what todo about those troubles!
John (06:13):
Well, that would be an "earthquake discovery" to say
the least.
That would be a discovery thatwould change the world.
But let's talk about whatactually happened.
Did they find the cause of theworld's troubles?
And did they tell the world whatto do about it?
Owen (06:31):
Well...
the answers are the old,"Yes andNo." They did make a good list
of the world's most serioustroubles.
And I think that was good.
And they did issue a report tothe media about those troubles.
And those were steps in theright direction.
But-- the group failed in twoimportant ways.
John (06:52):
Yeah, I think they failed in the two most important ways.
And I think our listeners willfind this fascinating.
Owen (07:01):
Yeah.
So here's what happened.
The psychologists failed in twoways.
First...
oh, the psychiatrists, I meantto say...
failed in two ways.
First, they didn't tell themedia what's causing-- what's
causing-- the world troubles.
And that's disappointing.
But second, the solution theyrecommended for solving the
(07:23):
world's troubles, to me, didn'tmake any sense.
And that was disappointing, too.
John (07:29):
Yes, and those two failures pretty much invalidated
(chuckles) their convention.
But let's tell our friends whatthe psychiatrists did report to
the media.
Owen (07:42):
Yeah, this is important.
This was carried in all thenewspapers.
Their report was in four parts.
Part number one (07:47):
This is very, very important.
They reported that peopleworldwide, people everywhere,
are breaking more moral codestoday than at any other time in
history.
Think about that a second.
(08:07):
In other words, people are moreunspiritual today than at any
other time in world history.
Number two (08:14):
They reported that this is true of all people
everywhere.
In other words, it's true inevery language...
every nation...
every culture...
every religion.
Everyone in the world is havingexactly the same troubles.
(08:34):
Think about that a second.
And then they reported-- the2,400 psychiatrists reported--
that the reason that people arebreaking all these moral codes
is because they are lonely, anddepressed, and filled with fear
...
(08:56):
hate...
lust...
greed...
envy...
selfishness...
and sexual perversion.
And now, hang on.
Number four part of theirreport: The solution they
recommended to solve thesehorrible troubles was the
standard psychiatric solution.
(09:18):
They said that everyone in theworld should lie down on a couch
and let their fantasies emerge.
John (09:28):
Owen! If this wasn't so serious, it would be...
ahh, I don't even have a wordfor it.
It's certainly illogical.
Because there aren't enoughpsychiatrists in the world, or
enough psychiatric couches inthe world, to have everyone
(laughs) on earth lie down andlet their fantasies emerge.
Owen (09:51):
It is.
And John, in some ways it'sfunny.
As the old joke goes, you know,you(chuckles) have to laugh it
hurts so bad.
Well, but I think their solutionwas even more illogical than
that.
Even if there were enoughpsychiatrists.
Even if the were enough couches.
I don't think the solution wouldwork anyway.
(10:12):
Why?
Because I don't think lettingpeople's fantasies emerge is a
good cure for drug abuse...
theft...
divorce...
murder...
and war, do you?
John (10:24):
No.
Not at all.
But we certainly don't believethat.
But let's explain a littlefurther what we mean.
Owen (10:32):
Well, we've talked about this, John.
But I think that lettingpeople's fantasies emerge is the
cause of trouble.
A cause, at least, of it.
Not a cure for it.
Think about this.
Now be honest.
If people fantasize about havingan affair, they'll probably end
(10:55):
up having one.
If people fantasize aboutstealing a piece of jewelry,
they'll probably end up stealingit.
So I think that fantasizing is acause of trouble.
Not a cure.
John (11:10):
That seems clear to me.
But that also means we need tofind two answers for world
trouble (11:16):
We need to know what's causing it.
And we need to know the cure forit.
Owen (11:23):
Exactly.
And the good news is, we'regoing to give those two answers
in these episodes.
And to get us started, let'sdeal with our first"Fuzzy" word
of the podcast.
We talked about this lastepisode.
But let's define this Fuzzy wordin the way that we learned in
(11:44):
the previous episode.
John (11:46):
Okay, so here's the Fuzzy word
referred to some people as"natural" people.
But the word"natural" is a Fuzzyword.
It has more than one meaning.
And it indicates more than onebehavior.
(12:06):
So, we need to define the word"natural" the way the first
Christians defined it.
Owen (12:14):
Absolutely right.
And so now let's use thetechnique that we learned in the
last episode.
Let's ask the Fuzzy wordquestion.
And here we go:"What did theoriginal Christians mean by
[NATURAL] people?""What did theymean by-- quotes--'NATURAL'
(12:34):
people?"
John (12:35):
And that's the way we learned to use the Fuzzy word
question in the previousepisode.
And we can use it to define anyChristian word that's Fuzzy.
But, what did the originalChristians mean by"NATURAL"
people?
Owen (12:53):
Okay, and following our Ground Rule#2 from the last
episode, we go to the First andSecond Centuries for the
original meaning.
And what those Christians meantby"natural" people was:
Non-Christians! A natural personwas their term for a
(13:13):
non-Christian.
John (13:15):
That's right.
The Early Christians callednon-Christians"natural" people.
And to prove that, let's giveour listeners an example from
Early Christian writing.
Owen (13:28):
Right.
Let's go back to the Middle ofthe First Century.
Let's go back to 56 AD.
And the apostle Paul was livingin Ephesus, Turkey at the time.
And while he was there, he wrotea letter back to his Christian
friends...
(his) brothers and sisters...
in the small groups of Corinth,Greece.
(13:50):
And in that letter, Paul madethe following statement about
non-Christians.
And let me quote it.
Here he goes.
He said-- quote--"The naturalperson..." Now stop.
Time out.
He's talking aboutnon-Christians there.
Right?
Listen to what he says aboutthem:(para)"The'natural' person
(14:12):
can't understand the things thatcome from the Spirit of God.
They're foolishness to him orher.
Because Spiritual things canonly be Spiritually understood."
And he means there that...
because non-Christians don'thave the Spirit.
(14:35):
So you can see that they wereusing this word"natural"-- they
were using the Greek word for it-- but they were using this word
"natural" to indicate people whowere non-Christians, and who did
not understand, and could notunderstand, things that came
(14:56):
from the Holy Spirit.
John (14:58):
Yeah, I know that I have thought for years, and have said
to people, that this is one ofthe most insightful passages of
scripture.
That explains so much.
Paul is...
in this, he's also giving anextremely important fact for our
friends to remember (15:16):
Spiritual things can only be Spiritually
understood.
We need to memorize that.
Owen (15:28):
Yeah, we need to paste that on our forehead.
Or on our shaving mirror, orsomething.
Nothing could be more important.
But listen.
This is the key.
We promised this at the top ofthe show.
That's the key to a"DeeperWalk." That's what we're saying
here.
Paul is saying"natural" people--non-Christians-- the reason they
(15:49):
can't understand Spiritualthings is because they don't
have the Holy Spirit.
Think about it.
If they did...
if a non-Christian did have theHoly spirit...
he or she could understandSpiritual things.
And that's the most, one of themost, important facts in human
(16:09):
history.
John (16:10):
Yeah, and to reiterate that
the most important thing we'regoing to be talking about in
these episodes.
Owen (16:20):
There you go! You talk about a key! So, to be
completely sure that our friendsin Podcast Land have this.
Now let's repeat it:"Natural"people-- quotes, Fuzzy word--
"natural" people, arenon-Christians.
And they're non- Spiritual.
And they're non- Spiritualbecause they don't have the Holy
(16:44):
Spirit...
hold on...
so they live"natural" lives.
And that's why the EarlyChristians called them"natural"
people.
John (16:57):
I don't have the words to tell our friends how important
this definition is.
It's desperately necessary forall of us to have the Holy
Spirit, so we can live Spirituallives.
Owen (17:13):
Well.
So the lesson is this (17:14):
If we understand"natural" people, we
understand how people becomeChristians.
And if we understand that, weunderstand the difference
between a Christian and anon-Christian.
Which, I may say John, manypeople cannot tell you what is
(17:36):
the difference between aChristian and a non-Christian!
John (17:40):
And the bigger lesson is that becoming a Christian is the
only way we can gain more peace,healing, and hope.
Because those come from the HolySpirit.
Owen (17:54):
Bingo.
How important, how important.
So, let's start understandingwhat the Early Christians called
"natural" people.
And to do that, let's talk abouttheir behavior.
Because"natural" people arecalled*natural* people because
they behave*naturally*.
(18:15):
So let's ask ourselves a bigquestion: What is-- what is--
*natural* behavior?
John (18:23):
Now we've opened the door to the subject of"motivators."
Because we're really talkingabout*natural* motivation.
So let's talk about that alittle more.
Owen (18:37):
Yeah.
This is another very importantword.
It's not in the Early Christianwriting.
But"motivator" comes from aLatin verb that means,"to move."
So*motivators* are drives, orurges, deep inside us, that move
us to*behave*.
(18:59):
They create our outer behavior.
So you could say, here would bethe definition:(para)
"Motivators" are inner drives,urges, that create the emotions
in us that produce our outerbehavior."
John (19:15):
Right.
Now we're beginning to get thewhole picture.
We said that loneliness and fearand hate are the causes of the
world's troubles.
(Right.) And those are emotions.
But they are*negative* emotions.
And we need to tell our friendswhere those negative emotions
(19:36):
come from.
Owen (19:37):
Isn't that interesting?
Wouldn't that be important?
So, here's the answer (19:40):
There is a motivator-- a motivator; it's
one motivator-- inside each ofus, that produces the*negative*
emotions of loneliness, andfear, and hate, and all the
other unspiritual motivationsthat all of us feel at times.
(20:05):
And those"unspiritual emotions"-- let's call them that-- they
are what is creating drug abuse,and crime, and divorce, and war,
and all the other troubles inthe world.
John (20:19):
Yes.
And let's tell our friends whatthat motivator is in us.
Let's talk about that innerdrive that creates*negative*
emotions in people, and thatproduces*unspiritual* behavior
in us.
Owen (20:36):
See, I don't know what could be more important, John.
This is what those 2,400psychiatrists in Frisco should
have been working on.
But let me say this.
We all need to tighten ourshoulder harness and our seat
belt.
Because this is where it getschallenging.
We promised(chuckles) at the topof the show that it would be.
(20:59):
Because...
and the original Christians werehonest.
They were more direct and morefactual than we are today.
Just to tell the truth.
John (21:10):
Yeah, that's true.
But so, regardless of that.
Let's tough it out.
And let's talk about what themotivator is that makes us
unspiritual.
Owen (21:21):
Okay.
Well, first we need to rememberthat the Early Christians wrote
in Greek.
So that was the internationallanguage of their day.
And they had a specific Greekword for this motivator that
we're talking about-- the onethat makes us unspiritual.
(21:42):
And that Greek word literallytranslates into English as
"flesh." As human flesh.
Like the*flesh* on our bones.
But figuratively...
and that's how they were usingit...
it translates into English as--hang on-- the Selfish Human
Nature.
John (22:02):
Hmm.
I'm thinking, Owen, maybe weneed to slow down just a moment.
Let's tap the brakes.
I want to be sure that everyone...
that we're getting this.
Because this is one of the mostimportant facts in our episodes.
We're saying that the EarlyChristians taught that basic
(22:24):
human nature is*selfish*.
Owen (22:29):
Aha! So, let's repeat that
taught that basic human natureis*selfish*.
In other words,"natural"behavior is*selfish* behavior.
Or, to say it another way,non-Christian behavior is
*selfish* behavior.
John (22:51):
Wow.
Now this is where it getschallenging.
Because many of us have beentaught that humans are basically
*good*.
And we've been taught that-- allthings, other things-- being
equal.
That people always do the rightthing in situations.
Owen (23:13):
Yeah.
I was taught that.
Probably everybody listening wastaught that.
But, it's not true.
That idea, that principle,doesn't pass the"smell test" of
everyday practical living.
Anyone who has any lifeexperience at all, knows that
(23:35):
people-- listen to this-- people*don't* always do the kind,
gentle, loving, thing in dailysituations.
John (23:47):
Yeah, unfortunately.
And we explained all of that soclearly in the book, Saving
Christianity.
So let's read one of my favoriteparagraphs from Chapter 6 in the
book.
Owen (24:00):
Yeah.
I believe you're talking aboutthat paragraph, John, that we
like on page 77 of Chapter 6.
But let's quote it here.
And I quote:(para)"What else butconceit and arrogance could
cause the crime...
drug abuse...
divorce...
child abuse...
adultery...
(24:20):
pornography...
wars...
drive-by shootings...
workplace massacres...
that we see all around us.
Only the*negative* emotions ofthe Selfish Human Nature can
explain all of that.
So, the beginning-- here we go--the beginning of Spiritual
(24:41):
growth is to accept the factthat human nature, human nature,
is*not* Spiritual.
That's just common sense.
And every-- listen-- everyreligion in the world teaches
it.
A lot of people don't know that.
The only difference betweenChristianity and all the other
(25:05):
religions of the world, is thatChristianity emphasizes the fact
that human nature is*not*Spiritual.
And teaches what to*do* aboutit.
John (25:19):
That paragraph teaches us everything we need to know about
human nature.
And it also teaches us thecause-and-effect linkage that
proves human nature is thesource of all the trouble in the
world.
Owen (25:37):
Yeah.
Cause-and-effect linkages.
I taught that for years inmanagement classes.
Let's look at three quick links.
Link#1 (25:45):
The Selfish Human Nature in people-- what the Early
Christians called our"flesh"--creates negative emotions in us.
Emotions, if you want somesamples, like greed, pride,
lust, and hate.
(26:06):
Now those negative emotionstrigger Link#2.
These negative emotions createnegative outer behavior in
people, like drug abuse, childabuse, adultery, divorce, crime,
and so on.
And then, third link(Link#3).
(26:27):
All of these negative outerbehaviors in people create all
the trouble in the world-- wars,poverty, failing economies,
disease, and so on and so forth.
John (26:40):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking as I'm sittinghere, Owen, that it that helps
us to understand why peopledon't understand.
That's a clear explanation ofthe world's troubles.
And it shows that the world'stroubles link right back to the
human-- there is an answer tothis!-- To the human"flesh" in
(27:02):
people.
That's right back to the SelfishHuman Nature.
Owen (27:08):
Well, that's right, John.
And listen.
No amount of teaching-- and it*is* taught-- no amount of
teaching that humans are born*good*...
humans are born*good*...
can deny that linkage.
Here's a quick example.
One teaching that I've heard inthe classroom, is that all
(27:28):
humans are born*good*.
But then when they grow up andenter society, they turn*bad*,
because society is*bad*.
But you can prove that's falseby asking yourself one question
(chuckles):"If all people areborn*good*, then where did*bad*
society come from!"
John (27:46):
( Laughter.) Exactly! Sometimes we don't think things
through to a common senseconclusion.
And as we said, it's just plaincommon sense that human nature
is basically*selfish*.
And that's why all the religionsin the world teach that.
And Owen, I think about it froma very practical level.
(28:09):
With our four children, I neverhad to teach our children to do
*bad*.
(Whoa.) It came"naturally" tothem.
(Laughter.) But we did have toteach them to do*good* and to do
*right*.
Owen (28:22):
(Laughs.) You talk about common sense, John.
It's like the old farmer said: "It's only common sense. (28:27):
undefined
But sense ain't so common!"(Laughter.) Well, let's go back
to the big challenge for amoment, John.
I don't want to lose this.
We said earlier that thisepisode was very challenging.
Here's the challenge (28:42):
Most people-- many people--*deny*
that human nature is selfish.
And whenever they hear somebodysay...
like we're saying right now...
that human nature is selfish,they immediately start having
some thoughts.
And here's probably what'sthey're thinking:(para)"No, wait
(29:04):
a minute.
Wait a minute.
That may be true of others.
But it's not true of me.
Naturally, I make an occasionalmistake.
Who doesn't?
But, my basic nature isn'tselfish.
It's kind, and generous, and Ialways try to do the right thing
(29:24):
in every situation."
John (29:26):
Yeah, I've definitely gotten some push back on that
one in the classroom.
I've heard many people say thatmany times.
And they say it with acompletely straight face.
Owen (29:35):
Uh-huh.
That's right.
But see, John, the very fact(laughing) that people have
these thoughts prove that humannature is*selfish*.
Because only a self-centeredperson could say all that with a
straight face.
John (29:51):
Hmm.
Yeah, what's funny is that whenpeople have these kinds of
thoughts...
we're only proving that thisEarly Christian teaching is
truth.
Because these thoughtsthemselves are*selfish*.
Owen (30:06):
Yeah, and they're also a trap.
Because listen.
They prevent people from growingSpiritually.
And*that*...
dear friends...
is the big lesson in thisepisode, and the big take-away
from Episode 09.
So let's repeat it.
The key to Spiritual growth isto admit that our basic nature
(30:31):
is*selfish*.
(Starting point!) Amen.
To admit that human flesh isselfish.
Because as long as we believewe're*not* selfish, we can't
grow Spiritually.
Why?
Here we go:*Because the purposeof Spiritual growth is to
(30:52):
overcome selfishness*.
(Repeats.) So, if we cling tothe belief that we're*not*
selfish...
we'll never grow Spiritually.
John (31:06):
Yeah...
as long as we live with thismentality that's so common:"I'm
Okay- You're Okay."(Chuckles.)As long as we deny that our
basic nature is self-centered.
Ah, I struggle with why we denythat.
We prevent our own Spiritualgrowth.
And that's why many people don'tgrow.
(31:29):
They've never been willing toadmit that they're selfish.
Owen (31:34):
Well, in Chapter 6 of the book, Saving Christianity, that
chapter closes with a*decision*-- it's right there in the book
-- that every person needs tomake at some point in their
lives.
And that*decision* offers themthree alternatives.
(31:57):
And here they are.
(para?) Alternative#1 (31:57):
I can accept the Early Christian
teaching that my inner humannature, my flesh, is lustful,
proud, selfish, andself-centered.
Or Alternative#2 (32:12):
I can deny that Early Christian teaching,
and cling to the worldlyteaching that human nature is
good, and sweet, and humble.
Or, and this is very popular,Alternative#3: I can avoid that
(32:34):
teaching, and leave it to thinkabout some other day.
John (32:40):
Hmm.
While our life is imploding!(Chuckles.) But our point is
this.
We're asking our friends out inPodcast Land, wherever you're
listening to this...
driving down the road...
to make this decision now.
Right here in this episode.
Because the choice that we make-- that*you* make-- listening to
(33:01):
this right now, will determinehow much you can grow
Spiritually in future episodesof this podcast.
Owen (33:11):
That's sooo, sooo true.
Sooo, if our friends listeningto this episode*can* accept the
fact, as they listen to thesewords, that everybody's human
nature is basically selfish.
They will have taken the firstgiant step towards Spiritual
growth.
(33:32):
You know, John.
You and I took that step manyyears ago.
We accepted the fact that wewere selfish.
And our lives were never thesame.
John (33:42):
Right.
Absolutely.
And that's the big challenge wepromised our friends at the top
of the show.
The question now is (33:50):
Can you-- can our listeners, can our
friends-- face your ownselfishness?
And I think you can.
And I believe that you will.
Owen (34:04):
Me too, John.
I think it, too.
Ditto that! And everyone whoaccepts this Early Christian,
ancient 2000-year-old teaching,that human nature is selfish,
immediately-- that second!--Immediately starts to grow
Spiritually.
John (34:24):
Right.
That's because Spiritual growthstarts with that decision.
It starts with admitting ourselfishness.
And that's why the EarlyChristians called human nature
our"Sin Nature." They called itthat because our human nature is
what creates a sinful behaviorin us.
Owen (34:47):
That's right.
And you know, John.
I'm sitting here thinking.
There's an old saying inmanagement that I used to teach:
"You can eat an*elephant*, ifyou take small enough bites."
(Repeats.) So we want ourfriends to take one small bite
(35:07):
in this episode.
Don't get ahead of the game.
Don't get alarmed.
Just one small decision...
one small bite...
in this episode.
Well, John, I tell you what I'deven like to do.
And I think this is the firsttime we've done this in our
episodes.
Let's stop right here, and prayfor our friends out there in
(35:31):
Podcast Land.
Whether they're in their car, intheir kitchen, wherever they are
right this minute, that they'llbe able to accept that ancient,
proven fact that all humannature-- yours, mine, theirs--
is basically selfish.
John (35:48):
Yeah.
And left to ourselves, we can'tfix it.
So let's pray for them:(para)Lord, we ask you right now to
help every person listening tothis episode to accept the Early
Christian teaching that we'vebeen talking about-- that human
nature is selfish, and we do nothave, in and of ourselves, the
(36:15):
remedy for it.
So as I say so often, the mostexciting thing is that that God
offers to us the solution (36:24):
That He will do for us what we cannot
do for ourselves.
And it begins as we admit this.
And that He gives us that partof Him that we call the Holy
Spirit.
We thank You now for what Youare doing in the lives of
(36:49):
countless people.
And we pray this in Your son,Jesus, His name.
Amen.
Owen (36:57):
And, amen.
Thank you, John.
And let me tell you out there inPodcast Land-- all our dear
friends-- John and I actuallypray for you every day, pray for
you daily, during our devotionaltime.
And we'll continue to do that aswe discuss our way through these
episodes.
(37:17):
But John, the big clock on thewall(laughter) is hollering at
me again, and saying it's timeto close.
But I think this has beenanother wonderful episode.
John (37:28):
Yes, it has.
And I think Episode 10 will bean even bigger step forward in
Spiritual growth.
Because it's going to describefor the first time our unique
*diagrams* that show howSpiritual growth works.
And I...
Owen, I can speak for myself ofjust my first exposure is
(37:52):
something that is etched in mymind and in my heart.
It's something that I've usedfor many years now teaching.
Owen (38:01):
Well, you know, John, I'll just...
I've said it before, I'll say itagain.
I don't know of any otherpodcast on the Internet that
explains the things that we'reexplaining.
And, the*diagrams* that we'regoing to start in the next
episode are unique.
I don't know of any other placeon the Internet, or anywhere
(38:22):
else, that they exist.
John (38:23):
Yeah, that's right.
And no one else that I'm awarehas them.
And frankly, I am anxious tostart showing them next.
Owen (38:33):
And we will.
In the meantime, our friendsneed to remember that this is
Episode 09.
And a script and recording of itare on our podcast website, with
our new Internet address: www.goSCpod.com. (38:44):
undefined
And obviously,"SC" means"SavingChristianity." www.goSCpod.com.
Even though the old address,www.CFOpods.com still works.
(39:05):
Remember, these episodes are aseries.
A new episode we're publishingevery-other-Tuesday.
They're connected.
They're in sequence.
And if you haven't been able to,please go all the way back to
the first episode and listenforward, so that you don't miss
anything-- as these facts buildupon one another.
(39:29):
But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (39:33):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf
...
Owen (39:38):
...
saying (39:38):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (39:58):
Owen and John end the episode.
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