April 13, 2021 • 46 mins
An introduction to Christian Family Online's unique series of Motivational Diagrams. This episode describes the "Three Circles" Spiritual Growth flowcharts in the book Saving Christianity – and provides a mental image for listeners to visualize their Spiritual growth. These unusual diagrams are not available in any other podcast, book, or video.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends.
This is episode 10 in ourbi-weekly series of the"Saving
Christianity" episodes.
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
(00:23):
Christian Family Online.
I'm your host, John Shields.
And I am...
I can't explain(chuckles) howexcited I am about today's
episode.
The title of this episode is: "The Spiritual Growth Charts." (00:33):
undefined
That's right.
"The Spiritual Growth Charts."And this episode is important
because it introduces us to useour unique series of
Motivational Diagrams.
(00:53):
We don't know any other podcast,video, TV show, or book that has
these unique diagrams.
Their purpose is to show youvisually how to be more
Spiritual.
In other words, to show youvisually how to have more peace,
healing, and hope, in your life.
(01:16):
And we think that's unusual.
In fact, we know that it isunusual.
And it's important.
And it's essential.
These diagrams-- and by the way,we also call them"charts"-- show
you how and why Christians aredifferent from non-Christians.
(01:38):
Now, I know that we have allheard the saying that"a picture
paints a thousand words." Well,that is so true when it comes to
this.
But the most important thingthey(the diagrams) do is to show
us how to live the"EarlyChristian Lifestyle" that we've
(01:58):
been discussing in all of theseepisodes.
However, before we startdescribing the diagrams, let's
pause here to introduce ourco-host, who you know well by
now, Owen Allen.
Owen (02:11):
Yo ho, John, mon ami.
("My friend," in French.) A big"hello" to our friends out there
in Podcast Land.
And to all of us here in thestudio.
You know, it's wonderful to behere again.
Driving in, and the beautifulspring weather.
And there's nowhere I'd ratherbe right this minute, John, than
with you and our belovedproducer, Shannon Wolfe.
(02:32):
And most of all, though, outthere in Podcast Land, all of
you, our dear, dear friends whoare listening, and who are
reading these transcripts on ourwebsite at www.goSCpod.com.
We'll talk about that later.
But as John said, this isextremely important.
We were talking before we satdown in the studio.
(02:56):
Today's episode is a difficultone for us to think through and
to record for you.
But it can be a life-changingexperience.
And so I'm ready to get started.
John (03:10):
Yes.
And our friends need to knowthat this episode also starts
Chapter 7 in the book, SavingChristianity.
And it's a pivotal episodebecause it explains our
Spiritual Growth Charts.
Owen (03:27):
That's right, John.
And you know, we've waitedreally until this point,'til
Episode 10, I guess, to evenmention these.
But they are so important.
Our friends will remember backin Episode 09, we talked about
that inner motivator within eachof us that the Early Christians
(03:49):
called our"flesh." A strangeterm in English.
But in Greek, you can translatethat as our"selfish human
nature." And we talked aboutthat negative-- if I dare say it
-- motivator is the source ofall the trouble in the world.
(04:09):
Remember, we said that it's thecause of every kind of problem--
just think about this a second--from crime, to war, to drug
abuse.
Even, as I see on TV, parentsfighting at their children's
Little League games.
John (04:24):
And unfortunately that's true.
Maybe you've never thought aboutit.
But the problem is (04:28):
Motivators-- our motivation-- and they're
hard to visualize, for sure.
And many people can't describehow a motivator works.
And they definitely can't draw achart of one.
So we've created our Series ofDiagrams just to show our
(04:50):
friends how motivators createbehavior.
You know, the Bible says that wewalk by faith, and not by sight.
And of course, we know thatultimately that's true.
But a little"sight" along theway helps us in describing, and
understanding, and actuallyapplying, these things that
(05:14):
we've been teaching now forthese past nine weeks.
Owen (05:18):
Well...
and that's why I think, John,that this series of charts that
we've created is so important.
And here's why.
Actually understandingmotivation is the key to
understanding what we call the"Early Christian Lifestyle." In
other words, it's the key toSpiritual growth.
And yet, many people-- evenincluding some pastors and
(05:44):
priests-- have never stopped toconsider the fact that
motivation is what makes theDeeper Spiritual Walk even
possible.
John (05:55):
Again, that's true.
So I want to just repeat forclarity the purpose of this
episode.
We want to show-- the best wecan-- our friends the basics of
how people are motivated.
We want to show them what it isin people that creates good and
(06:19):
bad behavior.
Owen (06:21):
Hmm.
Think about that a second.
Well, and it's important for ourfriends to know how.
Because this is the deal.
We're speaking verbally here.
But these diagrams are includedin this transcript of this
episode on our website at: goSCpod.com. (06:35):
undefined
Also, you mentioned John,they're in Chapter 7 of the
book, Saving Christianity.
But, I think our friends will bepatient with us but our problem
here is to describe thesediagrams verbally.
(06:56):
So we've decided that in thisepisode, we're going to give our
friends a mental image.
(Repeats.) And that way, whenthey're listening in their car
...
their office...
their kitchen...
wherever they are, they canvisualize what we're talking
about.
John (07:14):
All right.
Having our friends see thediagrams in this transcript, and
in the book, really is totallynecessary.
But it's also important for themto have a mental picture of
motivation while listening tothese episodes.
Owen (07:33):
Well, that's true.
So with that sort of preface,John, let's go ahead and dive
in.
And let's start giving ourfriends this mental image...
this mental picture.
You said,"A picture is worth athousand words." But this, we're
trying to paint a picture ofhuman motivation.
Think about that.
(07:53):
And here's the trick.
We see motivation as happeningin three parts, or three pieces.
And those three parts can bevisualized very simply, as
simply three circles on a pieceof paper.
And that's why we sometimes callthis series,"The Three Circles."
John (08:14):
Yeah.
And these three circles are easyto visualize.
That's another reason why theseries of diagrams is unique.
And to prove that, let's tellour friends the story of"The
Three Dinner Plates."
Owen (08:30):
Yeah.
This is where it starts.
So, now to do this, let's askour friends, and all of us
listening, just to imagine thatthey're sitting at a table.
It could be their dinner table,their breakfast table.
But there's absolutely nothingon that table but three large
white dinner plates.
(08:50):
So they're sitting there, andthey're looking at these three
plates, and they decide to playa game with the three plates.
And they decide what they'll dois arrange these three dinner
plates on the tabletop in theshape of a triangle.
So first, they position two ofthe plates horizontally in front
(09:11):
of them, side-by-side.
Let's say about 12 inches apart.
And these two plates sitting infront of them now will be the
"base" of our triangle.
Second, they take the third andfinal plate, and they put it on
the table about 12 inches abovethe first two plates.
And it'll be the"top" of thetriangle.
(09:33):
So now we've got a pyramid ofwhite plates.
It's sort of in the shape of aChristmas tree.
John (09:42):
Well, now that's easy to visualize.
Three plates on a table, arearranged in a triangle.
One plate is at the top as the"peak" of the triangle.
The other two plates areside-by-side below the top plate
as the"base" of the triangle.
(10:03):
Is that right?
Owen (10:04):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Now, before we get toocomplicated, here's what that
little design of plates-- thatlittle Christmas tree on the
table-- here's what itrepresents.
First, it represents"The ThreeCircles" diagram that are a
major part of our book, SavingChristianity.
And second, the diagrams in thebook itself represent how people
(10:30):
are motivated...
check this out...
for good or bad behavior duringthe day.
John (10:37):
So this image-- I can't overemphasize-- it's very
important.
Because until we understand howpeople are motivated, we can't
understand Spiritual growth.
Owen (10:51):
Hmm.
Absolutely.
Now, here's the best part.
Here's the most interesting partof this mental image.
So here we're sitting at thetable.
We've got these three largewhite dinner plates arranged in
front of us as a pyramid, or asa Christmas tree.
But now that's imagine we've gotsomething else.
We gone to the kitchen, andwe've got two cardboard tubes.
(11:13):
(Repeats.) These are like theones that are left over when a
roll of paper towels is all usedup around your kitchen sink.
Instead of throwing them away,we're going to connect our
plates, the three plates in thetriangle, with these two
cardboard tubes.
John (11:34):
So this is the most interesting part of the image.
Owen (11:38):
Well, I think so.
So here's what's going tohappen.
We take our first tube, and weplace it on the table so that
one end of it is resting on the"top" plate in the pyramid.
Then we turn around, and we movethe other end so that it's
resting on the bottom right-handplate of the"base." And so now
(11:58):
we've connected the tworight-hand plates, and we have a
complete side now of thattriangle.
Then we do the same thing withthe second cardboard tube.
We place one end of it, restingon the top plate.
But we twist it around, and theother end of it is now resting
on the bottom left-hand plate,on the left-hand side of the
(12:23):
triangle.
And now we've completed thattoo.
Those two plates are connected.
And so now we have a completetriangle, with both sides
connected coming down with thesetwo tubes.
John (12:37):
Yes.
But there's one(chuckles)there's one more thing, if
you're tracking with us.
The bottom of the triangle isstill open.
In other words, the two bottomplates are not connected.
Owen (12:51):
Right, John.
And they never will be.
That's correct.
And there's a reason for that.
But you're right, the two bottomplates are not connected.
So actually-- if we canvisualize it-- our triangle
looks like what they call an"inverted vee." Or an"upside
down vee." Scientists actuallyuse this symbol in chemistry and
(13:13):
other areas.
But they call it an"upwardpointing vee."
John (13:19):
And it looks like you're looking at the rafters in a
house.
Or maybe a sagging coat hangerthat doesn't have its crossbar.
Owen (13:29):
That's right.
We've got some coat hangers withno crossbar, and they do sag.
(Chuckles.) So those are goodexamples.
But look, let's stop a secondnow.
Let's get our footing.
Why are we giving our friendsthis image?
Here's why (13:42):
For our listeners who haven't read the book yet--
the book Saving Christianity--or who haven't visited the
website yet, we want you to beable to visualize motivation
too.
We want you to know what causesgood and bad behavior t oo.
(14:05):
And that's why we're trying tovisualize this"upward pointing
vee." And why that's soimportant.
John (14:13):
Yeah, and this image is more about...
more than just understandingmotivation.
As important as that is.
It's also about helping ourfriends live this same
miraculous lifestyle...
which we've said from thebeginning that the Early
Christians lived.
(14:34):
And Owen, I would just like tosay-- add-- you know our Savior,
Jesus, talked in parables orstories.
And that's essentially whatwe're doing.
We're painting a picture forpeople today, and understanding
in a very unique way.
(14:55):
It's one thing to say, you know,we need to live or be like
Christ, or et cetera, et cetera.
And people-- we all kind ofscratch our heads.
But it's another thing to beable to have an"ah ha!" moment
looking at this diagram.
And I know I say that because ithad that effect on me.
(15:15):
It really, really did.
Owen (15:17):
Me, too, pal.
And I tell you this.
This is extremely important.
You know, John, if I could breakin and say this: I think one of
the ways that our podcast isdifferent from many others is
that we're trying to bepractical.
We're trying to be utilitarian.
(15:37):
We're trying to show peopleactually feet-on-the-ground,
step-by-step, how is it that yoube Spiritual?
And just to say-- and we've bothbeen through this, John.
So many times, Christians get...
could I call it"theological"?
And they want to sit and readScripture to one another.
(15:57):
And we do that.
But i t comes a time and a placewhen you need to just say,"Okay,
step one...
step two...
here's what you do." That's themost important part.
Well, and in that regard, let mesay this.
In management classes, when Iwas a professor.
(16:18):
I used to teach what we call"flowcharts."(Repeats.) A
"flowchart" is a group ofcircles-- does that sound
familiar-- on a piece of paper.
Or it could be on a computerscreen, or some other device.
But what a flowchart does, inthis instance, it shows how a
product flows through a factory.
(16:40):
For example, it might show how anew car moves through a car
factory (16:43):
from workstation...
to workstation...
to workstation...
as the fenders, and bumpers, anddoors, and parts are assembled
on that new car.
John (16:54):
Right! And our"Three Circles" image is actually a
flowchart that shows howmotivation flows through a
person to create good or badbehavior in him or her.
Owen (17:11):
Exactly.
Think about that a second.
Where can you go to find thatout?
So...
but now look.
Let's get back to the"image" tohelp our friends visualize this
flowchart even better.
Let's give a number to each ofthe circles.
Now as we said, we're readingthis chart from right-to-left.
(17:34):
That's the opposite of how we inEnglish normally read things.
I was thinking about it thismorning, John.
Do you know there are about overa dozen languages in the world
that read from right-to-left.
For example, Aramaic-- whichJesus spoke-- reads from
(17:54):
right-to-left.
And so does Hebrew-- which thepriests used in the temple(in
Jerusalem).
And so do all the Arabic...
uh...
Arabian languages to this day,are read from right-to-left.
So to be, I guess, sort of likethe original Christians.
We're going to read our chartfrom right-to-left.
(18:17):
And that means the bottomright-hand circle is now Circle
#1.
And we put the big number ONE init.
That's in our transcript.
And here's the key.
"Natural" motivation, whichwe've talked about so much,
starts in Circle#1 at the bottomright-hand side of this chart.
John (18:39):
Right! And let's add quickly, that is the"natural"
motivation is where everyonestarts.
We all start in that.
"Natural" motivation originatesin Chart#1, at the bottom-right
of the chart.
(18:59):
So that's a starting point forall of us-- assuming we're
reading the chart fromright-to-left, the opposite of
how we normally read.
Owen (19:09):
Yeah, now here's the critical step.
And here's where our cardboardtubes come into play.
Because we need to know whatthose two tubes represent.
And of course they obviouslyrepresent"conduits," or
"channels," or"pipes"-- or everhow you want to think about it--
between the circles.
And here's why.
Motivation now is going to flowfrom circle-to-circle, as we
(19:34):
explain this, by moving throughthose tubes...
through those conduits...
from circle-to-circle.
And the"natural" motivation thatJohn just mentioned-- those of
you that remember previousepisodes,"natural" motivation is
that original motivation thatall of us have as babies, and as
(19:56):
the non-Christians have-- and itflows from Circle#1 at the
bottom-right, and goes up thetube, would you, and it comes to
Circle#2 at the top of thechart.
And so we now put a big numberTWO in that top circle.
John (20:13):
And that's why we call the image a flowchart.
"Natural" motivation flowsthrough the tubes to create
"natural" behavior in people.
Owen (20:27):
Right, roger! So here's what happens
motivation flows up from Circle#1 to Circle#2.
And, as we'll see in ourdiscussions here in this
podcast, it has tremendousimpact...
unimaginable impact...
on Circle#2 at the top.
John (20:49):
Right.
And then that leaves for usCircle#3-- which is at the
bottom left-hand side of theflowchart-- to be explained.
Owen (20:59):
Yeah, because here's the explanation of that
"natural" motivation doesn'tstop.
It doesn't sit at the top.
It continues to flow like ariver...
like a waterfall...
and it moves down now fromCircle#2 at the top, and it goes
through that left-hand tube thatwe discussed.
(21:21):
And it terminates at the bottomleft-hand side of the chart,
which is Circle#3, and has thebig number THREE in it.
And John, let me just say thisbefore we leave that thought.
Circle#3 is the most importantcircle in the flowchart.
The most important.
(21:42):
It's an astonishing circle.
But, it plays no role in"natural" motivation.
And so we won't even explain itin detail at this point.
John (21:53):
Yeah, and so just to finalize, that completes our
mental image.
We took three dinner plates;(and) two cardboard tubes; and
we created a flowchart in theshape of an"upside down vee."
Owen (22:09):
Roger, dodger.
And so our friends need to knownow-- let's mention it again--
that a picture of this flowchartthat we've described with the
Numbers 1- 2- 3 in it appears atthis point in the transcript of
this episode.
John (22:29):
And that flowchart is included in the transcript in
Episode 10, at about 22 minutesin.
You will be able to see thisflowchart in its completed
visual.
And the same flowchart is alsoincluded on pages 88 and 89 of
(22:53):
the book, Saving Christianity.
So you can go to either of thoseplaces and see it for yourself.
Owen (23:00):
That's right, John.
That's right.
Yeah, so the big clock on thewall told us that was at about
22 minutes.
And we'll have another couple ofpoints of that.
But, so, now let's talk aboutsymbolism a minute.
You know, John, you mentionedthat Jesus taught in symbols.
When you stop and think aboutit, the Bible is absolutely full
(23:23):
of symbols.
And they're wonderful symbols.
For example, we've talked aboutthe Holy spirit.
There were many symbols for Him: water, fire, the dove... (23:30):
undefined
many beautiful symbols.
So let's talk about symbols fora minute.
We've given our friends a mentalpicture of this flowchart.
We've described how"natural"human motivation flows from the
bottom-right, up through thetop, and back down to the
(23:53):
bottom-left.
But let's fill in the blanksnow.
And let's tell our friends whateach of these circles actually
represents.
John (24:02):
Yeah.
And here, we're going to giveour friends some-- as they say--
real meat.
This is where we can see howfascinating the flowchart really
is.
Owen (24:15):
That's right.
As we said, and we're readingnow together Chapter 7 in the
book, Saving Christianity.
And that chapter is where westart giving the details of how
people...
of how all humans...
are motivated for good and badbehavior.
In other words, this is where westart giving the details of--
(24:37):
hold on-- why people do good andbad things.
John (24:43):
Personally...
personally, Owen, I thinkChapter 7 is one of the most
important chapters in the entirebook.
But then again, that's hard tosay(chuckles), because all the
chapters are important.
Owen (24:56):
Well...
that's right, that's right.
But, and I continue to believethat...
I mean we think about raisingour children.
We think about conflicts withour spouses.
We think about all of thesethings.
I think it's important forpeople to know why...
our listeners to understand why...
people do good and bad things.
(25:18):
But let's break the ice now.
And give our friends a quickoverview of what each of the
circles means (25:24):
Starting with Circle#1, bottom-right of the
flowchart, where we agreed thatthis is where"natural" human
motivation originates.
John (25:37):
What Circle#1 represents.
Well...
you know, we explained back inEpisode 09, the"natural"
motivation that's standardequipment for all human beings.
(They) are motivated by theirflesh-- our flesh.
By their selfish-- our selfish--human nature, as it's called.
(26:00):
And that's what the first circleat the bottom-right of the
flowchart represents.
Owen (26:06):
That's right.
And we need to remembersomething we're coming to, John.
That's the only motivator.
That's the only motivation thatmany people have.
But here's the shocking, sad,tragic, point.
As we've agreed in previousepisodes,"natural" motivation is
basically selfish.
(26:26):
We said that it's the cause ofall the trouble in the world.
People will remember our storyabout the 2,400 psychiatrists
who met in San Francisco tofigure out what was causing all
the trouble in the world.
And this is it.
And we said, people are bornwith that selfish motivation.
(26:47):
And listen to this.
It stays with them all the daysof their lives.
Just to tuck in a thought here,we're going to find in later
discussions that Christiansstill have it too.
So we said, that's why the EarlyChristians in the First Century
called non-Christians-- quotes--"natural" people.
(27:11):
They did that because thesepeople-- non-Christians-- they
have this"naturally" selfishhuman nature.
John (27:20):
Yeah, you know, when you think about that just logically,
what else would...
what else would be...
motivating you?
You know, that's why allexplanations of motivation must
start with the selfish humannature.
We were born with it.
And here's something (27:39):
We can't change it.
And that's why we call it our"Birthright Motivator."
Owen (27:47):
Yeah.
(Chuckles.) Lots you could sayright there! Our"Birthright
Motivator." Born with it.
Can't change it.
Can't do anything about it.
At least in human terms.
Well, let's summarize then: Circle#1 represents what the (27:58):
undefined
Early Christians called our"flesh." That strange term, that
just simply means people's"naturally" selfish behavior.
John (28:13):
Yeah, now it's time, let's talk about why we use the color
black in our motivationalflowcharts.
Owen (28:19):
Well...
you know...
you would think people likecolor.
You know, there's an old sayingin the printing world that black
and white tells, but colorsells.
So...
but our flow charts are verysimple, in the transcript and
the book.
They're printed simply in blackand white.
We don't use red, and yellow,and blue, and other colors.
But here's why.
(28:41):
There's a symbolic reason.
A logical reason.
Down through history, the colorblack has represented death and
immoral things (28:50):
Spiritual death, physical death, immoral things.
That's why people wear blackarmbands at funerals.
That's why hearses are black.
And that's why even villains inmovies and plays always wear
black.
It's because their motives areimmoral.
John (29:10):
Hmm, let's not forget Dracula.
And how about Darth Vader?
They were villains who woreblack.
And we all remember terms likethe"Black Plague," and"Black
Sheep."
Owen (29:22):
Well, that's right.
And here's something funny,John.
If you look in a dictionary, didyou know that one of the
synonyms for the color black inthe dictionary is"bad"?
Imagine that.
Isn't that neat?
Black is"bad." So down throughhistory, the color black has
represented these bad things,things-- we're speaking
(29:44):
motivationally now-- people'sbehaviors that are harmful and
immoral.
And so that's why Circle#1 atthe bottom-right of the chart is
colored black.
When you see it in print, it'sblack.
And that's because it'srepresenting human selfishness,
which-- hold on-- is SpirituallyDEAD.
(30:07):
Let's repeat that.
Human selfishness is SpirituallyDEAD.
John (30:13):
That is an incredibly important principle for us to
remember (30:17):
Selfish Human Nature is spiritually DEAD.
And the behavior it creates isSpiritually DEAD too.
Owen (30:30):
Totally.
That'll curl your hair.
Well, you could call it...
even you could say that selfishbehavior is"unspiritual." Or you
could say"non-spiritual" inmodern terms.
But here's the point of it.
Think about this a second: Selfish behavior does not meet (30:44):
undefined
the needs of either God or otherpeople.
I think that's important.
John (30:56):
Incredibly.
And that's why there's a blackarrow in the right-hand tube of
the flowchart.
Now let's talk about that.
Owen (31:06):
Yeah, because if you look at it...
see our chart in print...
you'll see that this Circle#1 atthe bottom-right has a big,
black arrow in it.
And it's pointing up to...
toward...
Circle#2(repeats) at the top.
And symbolically, what that'stelling us is that selfish human
(31:30):
nature-- our BirthrightMotivator-- is constantly
pressuring, pushing, motivating,upward toward Circle#2 at the
top of the chart.
John (31:44):
And frankly, it's scary to know that our selfish human
nature, originally, is our onlymotivator at birth.
And that it's constantly pushingupward towards Circle#2 at the
top.
So let's tell our friends whatCircle#2 at the top represents.
Owen (32:05):
Yes, this is the biggie.
This is where the circle turns.
Or the worm turns.
Because Circle#2 at the top ofthe chart represents Our Human
Mind.
It represents that part ofpeople that thinks, makes
decisions, and creates behavior.
So what's happening is this: Circle#1, at the bottom (32:27):
undefined
right-hand side of the chart, isproducing this selfishness-- our
Birthright Motivator.
This selfishness is flowing upthe right-hand side of the
triangle, and entering our mind,which is Circle#2 at the top.
(32:49):
And guess what?
Circle#2 at the top is nowcolored black too.
So the whole right-hand side ofthe triangle, Circles#1 and#2,
are now colored black in print.
Why?
Because they're being dominated-- controlled-- by selfishness.
(33:11):
And that's why"natural" behaviorin people, coming out of that
colored-dark mind, is selfish.
John (33:20):
Ouch, ooh.
Our friends, we should besmelling a rat by now.
Because we're starting to seewhere all the trouble in the
world comes from.
You know, there is an answer forthis.
It comes from the fact-- asmaybe as hard as it is to admit
-- that people, all of us, areborn with minds dominated by
(33:45):
selfishness.
Owen (33:49):
Boy, that's a horrible thought.
(It is!) But you know John,here's the sad thing about that:
Is that many people have neverheard this fact before.
I never heard it.
But, this fact, as uncomfortableas it may make us, is the key to
understanding human motivation.
And motivation is the key tounderstanding why people have
(34:14):
bad behavior.
And you know what, John, wedon't want bad behavior.
But we have it.
John (34:19):
Right.
And I don't have the words, thevocabulary, to tell our friends
just how important this is.
I mean, after all, what could bemore important than
understanding why we have crime,cruelty, and hate, and all the
other things that are in theworld-- in fact, dominate our
(34:43):
world.
Owen (34:44):
Yeah, and you know, you watch TV, you listen to the
radio, and you think,"My mercy!"Why are people doing these
things?
Well-- now we know.
And I want to say this, John.
Way back in Episode 03, wequoted a little motto, or little
ditty, or something, that I usedto tell my management students.
(35:05):
And it's this:"Recognizing aproblem is half of its
solution." So, if people don'trecognize that they're being
motivated by selfishness...
and we talked about that earlier...
most people think that they'rebeing motivated in a good
fashion.
(35:25):
But if they don't recognize thatthey're motivated by selfishness
...
then guess what?
They don't see a need for asolution to it.
I know that was true of me.
I had no idea for years why Idid the stupid, selfish things
that I did.
John (35:44):
Well, that was true of me.
And I think it's true, really,of everyone.
We hear things like when you'reyoung, we often say,"Well, you
don't know what you don't know."We also say things like,"Well,
they are just what they are."And we just kind of settle for
that.
(36:04):
There's an old saying that'slike:"Youth is just another word
for inexperience." And and thatanswers a lot of life's
questions.
Owen (36:14):
It answered a lot of my life!(Chuckles.) So...
but the Good News...
here's the Good News about allof this.
None of this could, or should,apply to our friends out there
in Podcast Land.
Why?
Because previously in Episode09, we asked all of our friends
(36:35):
to think about it...
pray about it...
and accept the fact-- accept theEarly Christian teaching-- that
human nature, raw human nature,is lustful, and proud, and
selfish, and self- centered.
And that was the start ofSpiritual growth is to...
was for them to accept that.
(36:55):
And I think they did.
I'm sure they did.
And so now they're ready for thesolution to that selfishness.
John (37:02):
For sure.
And we also need to know thatyou can see our complete
flowchart, which is veryimportant, with the black arrow
pointing upward, at about 37minutes into this transcript.
And it's also on page 88 of thebook saving Christianity.
Owen (37:24):
That's right, John.
Well, here, we're ready now forthe big one.
Here we come to Circle#3.
And this finishes up theflowchart, the mental image,
that we're trying to give ourfriends.
And this is the most importantone: Circle#3 at the bottom left
of the chart.
John (37:43):
Well, Owen, I can't tell you.
I'm glad we're getting to thesolution.
We're glad to hear that there isa solution to our selfish
behavior, as in Circle#3 of theflowchart.
Owen (37:57):
Yeah.
This is important.
This is amazing.
This is astonishing to a lot ofpeople.
But it's true.
And it's real.
Circle#3 at the bottom left sideof our flowchart represents the
human soul.
Our soul.
S-O-U-L.
It represents that part of us--of all of us-- that gives life
(38:22):
to our bodies, that livesforever after our bodies die.
This is the so-called immortalpart of us.
And frankly, the EarlyChristians just call this our
"spirit"...
our"spirit." So the words"soul"and"spirit" are synonyms.
(38:44):
They mean the same thing.
And it's like you just said aminute ago, John.
That this part of our humanmakeup, this third circle-- our
spirit, our soul-- is the key...
is the key...
to stopping this selfishbehavior, and trouble, and
(39:04):
failure, in our lives.
John (39:06):
Yeah, this is definitely the most interesting part, and
the most important part, of ourmakeup.
But strange as it may seem, it'salso the part that many, many,
people know the least about.
Owen (39:24):
Absolutely.
I'd hate to say it, but I was inmy 30s before I realized I had a
soul or a spirit.
That's how scary it is.
Oh, and here's something we needto clear up just real quick as a
sidebar, John.
So there's no confusion.
There's a difference betweenGod's Holy Spirit, the Third
(39:45):
Part of the Trinity, Who isSpiritual, Who is the source of
Spirituality.
And our human spirit, which-- aswe've said, in its original
condition-- is unspiritual.
The two of these are verydifferent things.
God's Holy Spirit, which is thesource of Spirituality.
And our human spirit, which isthe source of selfishness(poorly
(40:08):
worded).
Well(correction), it doesn'tfight off selfishness, frankly.
(Chuckles.) We'll talk aboutthat later.
But these are two very differentthings.
John (40:17):
And that is so important.
In fact, I don't know anythingmore important than
understanding that.
Owen (40:26):
Well, and here's a tip.
On pages 86 through 88 of thebook, Saving Christianity--
that's back in Chapter 7-- wehave a full description of our
inner spirits.
We even quote examples from theEarly Christian records that
describe our inner spirit andhow it works.
It makes a really amazingreading.
John (40:49):
Yeah, and as you know, the truth is that our inner spirits
-- represented by Circle#3 onthe flowchart-- are the key to
Spiritual growth.
And they're also the key toliving a life of peace, of
healing, and hope.
Owen (41:07):
Uh- uh, those are wonderful, wonderful points,
John.
And well, I see we'reapproaching the end of this
episode.
But I want to make one final,tragic, point.
And it's this (41:18):
Selfishness flows up the flowchart, as we said,
from Circle#1.
Floods our mind with selfishness-- this is Circle#2.
And then it doesn't stop.
It continues, as we saidearlier.
It flows down the left side ofthe flowchart to Circle#3, which
is our spirit.
(41:39):
And it floods that too.
Think about it.
So what happens?
If you look at this flowchart inthe book, or here in the
transcript.
When it's complete, the entireflowchart is black.
And that means that anon-Christian's motivational
system is completely selfish.
John (42:02):
That's right.
Because neither our mind nor ourspirit can resist the flood of
selfishness coming up fromCircle#1.
And that's why naturalmotivation-- not sometimes, but
is always-- unspiritual.
Owen (42:22):
Hmm.
That's right.
And again, our friends will wantto see this black flowchart.
And it appears in our transcripthere at about 42 minutes.
And it's also on page 89 of thebook, Saving Christianity.
But it's a kind of a gruesomething to look at it.
(42:44):
Being completely black that way.
And knowing the symbology of thecolor that we've talked about:
That black representingselfishness and bad things.
And you know, John we're beingconfronted again.
I just have to say this.
We talked in previous episodes,that many people have been
(43:06):
taught that humans are born"good." Remember those
discussions?
And that humans will always dothe"right" thing in a pinch.
And of course, that fails thelogic test, that we said in one
episode.
That fails the test of commonsense.
We know humans don't always dothe sweet, kind, thing in a
(43:30):
pinch.
And so, we wanted to deal withthat.
And we know that we cannot growSpiritually until we do deal
with that.
And so this chart is right inour face, now.
We can paste it on our mirrorand look at it.
And it's confronting us withthat fact.
Our Birthright Motivation isselfishness.
(43:52):
And in future episodes, we'regoing to give all the details of
each of these three circles.
And we're going to talk aboutexactly how motivation works in
people-- for good and for bad.
And those will be incrediblyimportant discussions.
But you know, John?
I hate it, man.
(44:12):
But there's that big clock onthe wall staring at me.
It's time to close up shop fortoday.
But this has been anotherincredible episode.
And I'm just sorry to say ourtime is up.
But the Good News is we've gotan infinite number of wonderful
episodes comingevery-other-Tuesday, we're going
(44:34):
to publish one for our friends.
John (44:36):
Yeah, time is up, unfortunately.
But believe it or not, we dohave more interesting and
exciting episodes coming up.
For example, we're going to"getpersonal" next.
Don't let that scare you.
You and I, Owen, we're going totalk about ourselves a little
bit.
Hope that's not too boring.
Owen (44:56):
That's going to be a little embarrassing.
(Chuckles.) But we're going todo it anyway.
You know, it's time to"spill ourguts"(chuckles).
In the meantime, our friendsshould remember that this is
Episode 10, and that our scriptand recording of it are on the
Christian Family Online website.
And they just simply go to: goSCpod.com on the internet-- (45:15):
undefined
goSCpod.com on the internet.
Also, in our early episodes, wehad a different address.
It was CFOpods.com.
And that still works too.
But for now, John and Shannon,this is Owen Allen...
John (45:37):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer Shannon Wolf
...
Owen (45:42):
...
saying (45:42):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (46:04):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends.
This is episode 10 in ourbi-weekly series of the"Saving
Christianity" episodes.
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
(00:23):
Christian Family Online.
I'm your host, John Shields.
And I am...
I can't explain(chuckles) howexcited I am about today's
episode.
The title of this episode is: "The Spiritual Growth Charts." (00:33):
undefined
That's right.
"The Spiritual Growth Charts."And this episode is important
because it introduces us to useour unique series of
Motivational Diagrams.
(00:53):
We don't know any other podcast,video, TV show, or book that has
these unique diagrams.
Their purpose is to show youvisually how to be more
Spiritual.
In other words, to show youvisually how to have more peace,
healing, and hope, in your life.
(01:16):
And we think that's unusual.
In fact, we know that it isunusual.
And it's important.
And it's essential.
These diagrams-- and by the way,we also call them"charts"-- show
you how and why Christians aredifferent from non-Christians.
(01:38):
Now, I know that we have allheard the saying that"a picture
paints a thousand words." Well,that is so true when it comes to
this.
But the most important thingthey(the diagrams) do is to show
us how to live the"EarlyChristian Lifestyle" that we've
(01:58):
been discussing in all of theseepisodes.
However, before we startdescribing the diagrams, let's
pause here to introduce ourco-host, who you know well by
now, Owen Allen.
Owen (02:11):
Yo ho, John, mon ami.
("My friend," in French.) A big"hello" to our friends out there
in Podcast Land.
And to all of us here in thestudio.
You know, it's wonderful to behere again.
Driving in, and the beautifulspring weather.
And there's nowhere I'd ratherbe right this minute, John, than
with you and our belovedproducer, Shannon Wolfe.
(02:32):
And most of all, though, outthere in Podcast Land, all of
you, our dear, dear friends whoare listening, and who are
reading these transcripts on ourwebsite at www.goSCpod.com.
We'll talk about that later.
But as John said, this isextremely important.
We were talking before we satdown in the studio.
(02:56):
Today's episode is a difficultone for us to think through and
to record for you.
But it can be a life-changingexperience.
And so I'm ready to get started.
John (03:10):
Yes.
And our friends need to knowthat this episode also starts
Chapter 7 in the book, SavingChristianity.
And it's a pivotal episodebecause it explains our
Spiritual Growth Charts.
Owen (03:27):
That's right, John.
And you know, we've waitedreally until this point,'til
Episode 10, I guess, to evenmention these.
But they are so important.
Our friends will remember backin Episode 09, we talked about
that inner motivator within eachof us that the Early Christians
(03:49):
called our"flesh." A strangeterm in English.
But in Greek, you can translatethat as our"selfish human
nature." And we talked aboutthat negative-- if I dare say it
-- motivator is the source ofall the trouble in the world.
(04:09):
Remember, we said that it's thecause of every kind of problem--
just think about this a second--from crime, to war, to drug
abuse.
Even, as I see on TV, parentsfighting at their children's
Little League games.
John (04:24):
And unfortunately that's true.
Maybe you've never thought aboutit.
But the problem is (04:28):
Motivators-- our motivation-- and they're
hard to visualize, for sure.
And many people can't describehow a motivator works.
And they definitely can't draw achart of one.
So we've created our Series ofDiagrams just to show our
(04:50):
friends how motivators createbehavior.
You know, the Bible says that wewalk by faith, and not by sight.
And of course, we know thatultimately that's true.
But a little"sight" along theway helps us in describing, and
understanding, and actuallyapplying, these things that
(05:14):
we've been teaching now forthese past nine weeks.
Owen (05:18):
Well...
and that's why I think, John,that this series of charts that
we've created is so important.
And here's why.
Actually understandingmotivation is the key to
understanding what we call the"Early Christian Lifestyle." In
other words, it's the key toSpiritual growth.
And yet, many people-- evenincluding some pastors and
(05:44):
priests-- have never stopped toconsider the fact that
motivation is what makes theDeeper Spiritual Walk even
possible.
John (05:55):
Again, that's true.
So I want to just repeat forclarity the purpose of this
episode.
We want to show-- the best wecan-- our friends the basics of
how people are motivated.
We want to show them what it isin people that creates good and
(06:19):
bad behavior.
Owen (06:21):
Hmm.
Think about that a second.
Well, and it's important for ourfriends to know how.
Because this is the deal.
We're speaking verbally here.
But these diagrams are includedin this transcript of this
episode on our website at: goSCpod.com. (06:35):
undefined
Also, you mentioned John,they're in Chapter 7 of the
book, Saving Christianity.
But, I think our friends will bepatient with us but our problem
here is to describe thesediagrams verbally.
(06:56):
So we've decided that in thisepisode, we're going to give our
friends a mental image.
(Repeats.) And that way, whenthey're listening in their car
...
their office...
their kitchen...
wherever they are, they canvisualize what we're talking
about.
John (07:14):
All right.
Having our friends see thediagrams in this transcript, and
in the book, really is totallynecessary.
But it's also important for themto have a mental picture of
motivation while listening tothese episodes.
Owen (07:33):
Well, that's true.
So with that sort of preface,John, let's go ahead and dive
in.
And let's start giving ourfriends this mental image...
this mental picture.
You said,"A picture is worth athousand words." But this, we're
trying to paint a picture ofhuman motivation.
Think about that.
(07:53):
And here's the trick.
We see motivation as happeningin three parts, or three pieces.
And those three parts can bevisualized very simply, as
simply three circles on a pieceof paper.
And that's why we sometimes callthis series,"The Three Circles."
John (08:14):
Yeah.
And these three circles are easyto visualize.
That's another reason why theseries of diagrams is unique.
And to prove that, let's tellour friends the story of"The
Three Dinner Plates."
Owen (08:30):
Yeah.
This is where it starts.
So, now to do this, let's askour friends, and all of us
listening, just to imagine thatthey're sitting at a table.
It could be their dinner table,their breakfast table.
But there's absolutely nothingon that table but three large
white dinner plates.
(08:50):
So they're sitting there, andthey're looking at these three
plates, and they decide to playa game with the three plates.
And they decide what they'll dois arrange these three dinner
plates on the tabletop in theshape of a triangle.
So first, they position two ofthe plates horizontally in front
(09:11):
of them, side-by-side.
Let's say about 12 inches apart.
And these two plates sitting infront of them now will be the
"base" of our triangle.
Second, they take the third andfinal plate, and they put it on
the table about 12 inches abovethe first two plates.
And it'll be the"top" of thetriangle.
(09:33):
So now we've got a pyramid ofwhite plates.
It's sort of in the shape of aChristmas tree.
John (09:42):
Well, now that's easy to visualize.
Three plates on a table, arearranged in a triangle.
One plate is at the top as the"peak" of the triangle.
The other two plates areside-by-side below the top plate
as the"base" of the triangle.
(10:03):
Is that right?
Owen (10:04):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Now, before we get toocomplicated, here's what that
little design of plates-- thatlittle Christmas tree on the
table-- here's what itrepresents.
First, it represents"The ThreeCircles" diagram that are a
major part of our book, SavingChristianity.
And second, the diagrams in thebook itself represent how people
(10:30):
are motivated...
check this out...
for good or bad behavior duringthe day.
John (10:37):
So this image-- I can't overemphasize-- it's very
important.
Because until we understand howpeople are motivated, we can't
understand Spiritual growth.
Owen (10:51):
Hmm.
Absolutely.
Now, here's the best part.
Here's the most interesting partof this mental image.
So here we're sitting at thetable.
We've got these three largewhite dinner plates arranged in
front of us as a pyramid, or asa Christmas tree.
But now that's imagine we've gotsomething else.
We gone to the kitchen, andwe've got two cardboard tubes.
(11:13):
(Repeats.) These are like theones that are left over when a
roll of paper towels is all usedup around your kitchen sink.
Instead of throwing them away,we're going to connect our
plates, the three plates in thetriangle, with these two
cardboard tubes.
John (11:34):
So this is the most interesting part of the image.
Owen (11:38):
Well, I think so.
So here's what's going tohappen.
We take our first tube, and weplace it on the table so that
one end of it is resting on the"top" plate in the pyramid.
Then we turn around, and we movethe other end so that it's
resting on the bottom right-handplate of the"base." And so now
(11:58):
we've connected the tworight-hand plates, and we have a
complete side now of thattriangle.
Then we do the same thing withthe second cardboard tube.
We place one end of it, restingon the top plate.
But we twist it around, and theother end of it is now resting
on the bottom left-hand plate,on the left-hand side of the
(12:23):
triangle.
And now we've completed thattoo.
Those two plates are connected.
And so now we have a completetriangle, with both sides
connected coming down with thesetwo tubes.
John (12:37):
Yes.
But there's one(chuckles)there's one more thing, if
you're tracking with us.
The bottom of the triangle isstill open.
In other words, the two bottomplates are not connected.
Owen (12:51):
Right, John.
And they never will be.
That's correct.
And there's a reason for that.
But you're right, the two bottomplates are not connected.
So actually-- if we canvisualize it-- our triangle
looks like what they call an"inverted vee." Or an"upside
down vee." Scientists actuallyuse this symbol in chemistry and
(13:13):
other areas.
But they call it an"upwardpointing vee."
John (13:19):
And it looks like you're looking at the rafters in a
house.
Or maybe a sagging coat hangerthat doesn't have its crossbar.
Owen (13:29):
That's right.
We've got some coat hangers withno crossbar, and they do sag.
(Chuckles.) So those are goodexamples.
But look, let's stop a secondnow.
Let's get our footing.
Why are we giving our friendsthis image?
Here's why (13:42):
For our listeners who haven't read the book yet--
the book Saving Christianity--or who haven't visited the
website yet, we want you to beable to visualize motivation
too.
We want you to know what causesgood and bad behavior t oo.
(14:05):
And that's why we're trying tovisualize this"upward pointing
vee." And why that's soimportant.
John (14:13):
Yeah, and this image is more about...
more than just understandingmotivation.
As important as that is.
It's also about helping ourfriends live this same
miraculous lifestyle...
which we've said from thebeginning that the Early
Christians lived.
(14:34):
And Owen, I would just like tosay-- add-- you know our Savior,
Jesus, talked in parables orstories.
And that's essentially whatwe're doing.
We're painting a picture forpeople today, and understanding
in a very unique way.
(14:55):
It's one thing to say, you know,we need to live or be like
Christ, or et cetera, et cetera.
And people-- we all kind ofscratch our heads.
But it's another thing to beable to have an"ah ha!" moment
looking at this diagram.
And I know I say that because ithad that effect on me.
(15:15):
It really, really did.
Owen (15:17):
Me, too, pal.
And I tell you this.
This is extremely important.
You know, John, if I could breakin and say this: I think one of
the ways that our podcast isdifferent from many others is
that we're trying to bepractical.
We're trying to be utilitarian.
(15:37):
We're trying to show peopleactually feet-on-the-ground,
step-by-step, how is it that yoube Spiritual?
And just to say-- and we've bothbeen through this, John.
So many times, Christians get...
could I call it"theological"?
And they want to sit and readScripture to one another.
(15:57):
And we do that.
But i t comes a time and a placewhen you need to just say,"Okay,
step one...
step two...
here's what you do." That's themost important part.
Well, and in that regard, let mesay this.
In management classes, when Iwas a professor.
(16:18):
I used to teach what we call"flowcharts."(Repeats.) A
"flowchart" is a group ofcircles-- does that sound
familiar-- on a piece of paper.
Or it could be on a computerscreen, or some other device.
But what a flowchart does, inthis instance, it shows how a
product flows through a factory.
(16:40):
For example, it might show how anew car moves through a car
factory (16:43):
from workstation...
to workstation...
to workstation...
as the fenders, and bumpers, anddoors, and parts are assembled
on that new car.
John (16:54):
Right! And our"Three Circles" image is actually a
flowchart that shows howmotivation flows through a
person to create good or badbehavior in him or her.
Owen (17:11):
Exactly.
Think about that a second.
Where can you go to find thatout?
So...
but now look.
Let's get back to the"image" tohelp our friends visualize this
flowchart even better.
Let's give a number to each ofthe circles.
Now as we said, we're readingthis chart from right-to-left.
(17:34):
That's the opposite of how we inEnglish normally read things.
I was thinking about it thismorning, John.
Do you know there are about overa dozen languages in the world
that read from right-to-left.
For example, Aramaic-- whichJesus spoke-- reads from
(17:54):
right-to-left.
And so does Hebrew-- which thepriests used in the temple(in
Jerusalem).
And so do all the Arabic...
uh...
Arabian languages to this day,are read from right-to-left.
So to be, I guess, sort of likethe original Christians.
We're going to read our chartfrom right-to-left.
(18:17):
And that means the bottomright-hand circle is now Circle
#1.
And we put the big number ONE init.
That's in our transcript.
And here's the key.
"Natural" motivation, whichwe've talked about so much,
starts in Circle#1 at the bottomright-hand side of this chart.
John (18:39):
Right! And let's add quickly, that is the"natural"
motivation is where everyonestarts.
We all start in that.
"Natural" motivation originatesin Chart#1, at the bottom-right
of the chart.
(18:59):
So that's a starting point forall of us-- assuming we're
reading the chart fromright-to-left, the opposite of
how we normally read.
Owen (19:09):
Yeah, now here's the critical step.
And here's where our cardboardtubes come into play.
Because we need to know whatthose two tubes represent.
And of course they obviouslyrepresent"conduits," or
"channels," or"pipes"-- or everhow you want to think about it--
between the circles.
And here's why.
Motivation now is going to flowfrom circle-to-circle, as we
(19:34):
explain this, by moving throughthose tubes...
through those conduits...
from circle-to-circle.
And the"natural" motivation thatJohn just mentioned-- those of
you that remember previousepisodes,"natural" motivation is
that original motivation thatall of us have as babies, and as
(19:56):
the non-Christians have-- and itflows from Circle#1 at the
bottom-right, and goes up thetube, would you, and it comes to
Circle#2 at the top of thechart.
And so we now put a big numberTWO in that top circle.
John (20:13):
And that's why we call the image a flowchart.
"Natural" motivation flowsthrough the tubes to create
"natural" behavior in people.
Owen (20:27):
Right, roger! So here's what happens
motivation flows up from Circle#1 to Circle#2.
And, as we'll see in ourdiscussions here in this
podcast, it has tremendousimpact...
unimaginable impact...
on Circle#2 at the top.
John (20:49):
Right.
And then that leaves for usCircle#3-- which is at the
bottom left-hand side of theflowchart-- to be explained.
Owen (20:59):
Yeah, because here's the explanation of that
"natural" motivation doesn'tstop.
It doesn't sit at the top.
It continues to flow like ariver...
like a waterfall...
and it moves down now fromCircle#2 at the top, and it goes
through that left-hand tube thatwe discussed.
(21:21):
And it terminates at the bottomleft-hand side of the chart,
which is Circle#3, and has thebig number THREE in it.
And John, let me just say thisbefore we leave that thought.
Circle#3 is the most importantcircle in the flowchart.
The most important.
(21:42):
It's an astonishing circle.
But, it plays no role in"natural" motivation.
And so we won't even explain itin detail at this point.
John (21:53):
Yeah, and so just to finalize, that completes our
mental image.
We took three dinner plates;(and) two cardboard tubes; and
we created a flowchart in theshape of an"upside down vee."
Owen (22:09):
Roger, dodger.
And so our friends need to knownow-- let's mention it again--
that a picture of this flowchartthat we've described with the
Numbers 1- 2- 3 in it appears atthis point in the transcript of
this episode.
John (22:29):
And that flowchart is included in the transcript in
Episode 10, at about 22 minutesin.
You will be able to see thisflowchart in its completed
visual.
And the same flowchart is alsoincluded on pages 88 and 89 of
(22:53):
the book, Saving Christianity.
So you can go to either of thoseplaces and see it for yourself.
Owen (23:00):
That's right, John.
That's right.
Yeah, so the big clock on thewall told us that was at about
22 minutes.
And we'll have another couple ofpoints of that.
But, so, now let's talk aboutsymbolism a minute.
You know, John, you mentionedthat Jesus taught in symbols.
When you stop and think aboutit, the Bible is absolutely full
(23:23):
of symbols.
And they're wonderful symbols.
For example, we've talked aboutthe Holy spirit.
There were many symbols for Him: water, fire, the dove... (23:30):
undefined
many beautiful symbols.
So let's talk about symbols fora minute.
We've given our friends a mentalpicture of this flowchart.
We've described how"natural"human motivation flows from the
bottom-right, up through thetop, and back down to the
(23:53):
bottom-left.
But let's fill in the blanksnow.
And let's tell our friends whateach of these circles actually
represents.
John (24:02):
Yeah.
And here, we're going to giveour friends some-- as they say--
real meat.
This is where we can see howfascinating the flowchart really
is.
Owen (24:15):
That's right.
As we said, and we're readingnow together Chapter 7 in the
book, Saving Christianity.
And that chapter is where westart giving the details of how
people...
of how all humans...
are motivated for good and badbehavior.
In other words, this is where westart giving the details of--
(24:37):
hold on-- why people do good andbad things.
John (24:43):
Personally...
personally, Owen, I thinkChapter 7 is one of the most
important chapters in the entirebook.
But then again, that's hard tosay(chuckles), because all the
chapters are important.
Owen (24:56):
Well...
that's right, that's right.
But, and I continue to believethat...
I mean we think about raisingour children.
We think about conflicts withour spouses.
We think about all of thesethings.
I think it's important forpeople to know why...
our listeners to understand why...
people do good and bad things.
(25:18):
But let's break the ice now.
And give our friends a quickoverview of what each of the
circles means (25:24):
Starting with Circle#1, bottom-right of the
flowchart, where we agreed thatthis is where"natural" human
motivation originates.
John (25:37):
What Circle#1 represents.
Well...
you know, we explained back inEpisode 09, the"natural"
motivation that's standardequipment for all human beings.
(They) are motivated by theirflesh-- our flesh.
By their selfish-- our selfish--human nature, as it's called.
(26:00):
And that's what the first circleat the bottom-right of the
flowchart represents.
Owen (26:06):
That's right.
And we need to remembersomething we're coming to, John.
That's the only motivator.
That's the only motivation thatmany people have.
But here's the shocking, sad,tragic, point.
As we've agreed in previousepisodes,"natural" motivation is
basically selfish.
(26:26):
We said that it's the cause ofall the trouble in the world.
People will remember our storyabout the 2,400 psychiatrists
who met in San Francisco tofigure out what was causing all
the trouble in the world.
And this is it.
And we said, people are bornwith that selfish motivation.
(26:47):
And listen to this.
It stays with them all the daysof their lives.
Just to tuck in a thought here,we're going to find in later
discussions that Christiansstill have it too.
So we said, that's why the EarlyChristians in the First Century
called non-Christians-- quotes--"natural" people.
(27:11):
They did that because thesepeople-- non-Christians-- they
have this"naturally" selfishhuman nature.
John (27:20):
Yeah, you know, when you think about that just logically,
what else would...
what else would be...
motivating you?
You know, that's why allexplanations of motivation must
start with the selfish humannature.
We were born with it.
And here's something (27:39):
We can't change it.
And that's why we call it our"Birthright Motivator."
Owen (27:47):
Yeah.
(Chuckles.) Lots you could sayright there! Our"Birthright
Motivator." Born with it.
Can't change it.
Can't do anything about it.
At least in human terms.
Well, let's summarize then: Circle#1 represents what the (27:58):
undefined
Early Christians called our"flesh." That strange term, that
just simply means people's"naturally" selfish behavior.
John (28:13):
Yeah, now it's time, let's talk about why we use the color
black in our motivationalflowcharts.
Owen (28:19):
Well...
you know...
you would think people likecolor.
You know, there's an old sayingin the printing world that black
and white tells, but colorsells.
So...
but our flow charts are verysimple, in the transcript and
the book.
They're printed simply in blackand white.
We don't use red, and yellow,and blue, and other colors.
But here's why.
(28:41):
There's a symbolic reason.
A logical reason.
Down through history, the colorblack has represented death and
immoral things (28:50):
Spiritual death, physical death, immoral things.
That's why people wear blackarmbands at funerals.
That's why hearses are black.
And that's why even villains inmovies and plays always wear
black.
It's because their motives areimmoral.
John (29:10):
Hmm, let's not forget Dracula.
And how about Darth Vader?
They were villains who woreblack.
And we all remember terms likethe"Black Plague," and"Black
Sheep."
Owen (29:22):
Well, that's right.
And here's something funny,John.
If you look in a dictionary, didyou know that one of the
synonyms for the color black inthe dictionary is"bad"?
Imagine that.
Isn't that neat?
Black is"bad." So down throughhistory, the color black has
represented these bad things,things-- we're speaking
(29:44):
motivationally now-- people'sbehaviors that are harmful and
immoral.
And so that's why Circle#1 atthe bottom-right of the chart is
colored black.
When you see it in print, it'sblack.
And that's because it'srepresenting human selfishness,
which-- hold on-- is SpirituallyDEAD.
(30:07):
Let's repeat that.
Human selfishness is SpirituallyDEAD.
John (30:13):
That is an incredibly important principle for us to
remember (30:17):
Selfish Human Nature is spiritually DEAD.
And the behavior it creates isSpiritually DEAD too.
Owen (30:30):
Totally.
That'll curl your hair.
Well, you could call it...
even you could say that selfishbehavior is"unspiritual." Or you
could say"non-spiritual" inmodern terms.
But here's the point of it.
Think about this a second: Selfish behavior does not meet (30:44):
undefined
the needs of either God or otherpeople.
I think that's important.
John (30:56):
Incredibly.
And that's why there's a blackarrow in the right-hand tube of
the flowchart.
Now let's talk about that.
Owen (31:06):
Yeah, because if you look at it...
see our chart in print...
you'll see that this Circle#1 atthe bottom-right has a big,
black arrow in it.
And it's pointing up to...
toward...
Circle#2(repeats) at the top.
And symbolically, what that'stelling us is that selfish human
(31:30):
nature-- our BirthrightMotivator-- is constantly
pressuring, pushing, motivating,upward toward Circle#2 at the
top of the chart.
John (31:44):
And frankly, it's scary to know that our selfish human
nature, originally, is our onlymotivator at birth.
And that it's constantly pushingupward towards Circle#2 at the
top.
So let's tell our friends whatCircle#2 at the top represents.
Owen (32:05):
Yes, this is the biggie.
This is where the circle turns.
Or the worm turns.
Because Circle#2 at the top ofthe chart represents Our Human
Mind.
It represents that part ofpeople that thinks, makes
decisions, and creates behavior.
So what's happening is this: Circle#1, at the bottom (32:27):
undefined
right-hand side of the chart, isproducing this selfishness-- our
Birthright Motivator.
This selfishness is flowing upthe right-hand side of the
triangle, and entering our mind,which is Circle#2 at the top.
(32:49):
And guess what?
Circle#2 at the top is nowcolored black too.
So the whole right-hand side ofthe triangle, Circles#1 and#2,
are now colored black in print.
Why?
Because they're being dominated-- controlled-- by selfishness.
(33:11):
And that's why"natural" behaviorin people, coming out of that
colored-dark mind, is selfish.
John (33:20):
Ouch, ooh.
Our friends, we should besmelling a rat by now.
Because we're starting to seewhere all the trouble in the
world comes from.
You know, there is an answer forthis.
It comes from the fact-- asmaybe as hard as it is to admit
-- that people, all of us, areborn with minds dominated by
(33:45):
selfishness.
Owen (33:49):
Boy, that's a horrible thought.
(It is!) But you know John,here's the sad thing about that:
Is that many people have neverheard this fact before.
I never heard it.
But, this fact, as uncomfortableas it may make us, is the key to
understanding human motivation.
And motivation is the key tounderstanding why people have
(34:14):
bad behavior.
And you know what, John, wedon't want bad behavior.
But we have it.
John (34:19):
Right.
And I don't have the words, thevocabulary, to tell our friends
just how important this is.
I mean, after all, what could bemore important than
understanding why we have crime,cruelty, and hate, and all the
other things that are in theworld-- in fact, dominate our
(34:43):
world.
Owen (34:44):
Yeah, and you know, you watch TV, you listen to the
radio, and you think,"My mercy!"Why are people doing these
things?
Well-- now we know.
And I want to say this, John.
Way back in Episode 03, wequoted a little motto, or little
ditty, or something, that I usedto tell my management students.
(35:05):
And it's this:"Recognizing aproblem is half of its
solution." So, if people don'trecognize that they're being
motivated by selfishness...
and we talked about that earlier...
most people think that they'rebeing motivated in a good
fashion.
(35:25):
But if they don't recognize thatthey're motivated by selfishness
...
then guess what?
They don't see a need for asolution to it.
I know that was true of me.
I had no idea for years why Idid the stupid, selfish things
that I did.
John (35:44):
Well, that was true of me.
And I think it's true, really,of everyone.
We hear things like when you'reyoung, we often say,"Well, you
don't know what you don't know."We also say things like,"Well,
they are just what they are."And we just kind of settle for
that.
(36:04):
There's an old saying that'slike:"Youth is just another word
for inexperience." And and thatanswers a lot of life's
questions.
Owen (36:14):
It answered a lot of my life!(Chuckles.) So...
but the Good News...
here's the Good News about allof this.
None of this could, or should,apply to our friends out there
in Podcast Land.
Why?
Because previously in Episode09, we asked all of our friends
(36:35):
to think about it...
pray about it...
and accept the fact-- accept theEarly Christian teaching-- that
human nature, raw human nature,is lustful, and proud, and
selfish, and self- centered.
And that was the start ofSpiritual growth is to...
was for them to accept that.
(36:55):
And I think they did.
I'm sure they did.
And so now they're ready for thesolution to that selfishness.
John (37:02):
For sure.
And we also need to know thatyou can see our complete
flowchart, which is veryimportant, with the black arrow
pointing upward, at about 37minutes into this transcript.
And it's also on page 88 of thebook saving Christianity.
Owen (37:24):
That's right, John.
Well, here, we're ready now forthe big one.
Here we come to Circle#3.
And this finishes up theflowchart, the mental image,
that we're trying to give ourfriends.
And this is the most importantone: Circle#3 at the bottom left
of the chart.
John (37:43):
Well, Owen, I can't tell you.
I'm glad we're getting to thesolution.
We're glad to hear that there isa solution to our selfish
behavior, as in Circle#3 of theflowchart.
Owen (37:57):
Yeah.
This is important.
This is amazing.
This is astonishing to a lot ofpeople.
But it's true.
And it's real.
Circle#3 at the bottom left sideof our flowchart represents the
human soul.
Our soul.
S-O-U-L.
It represents that part of us--of all of us-- that gives life
(38:22):
to our bodies, that livesforever after our bodies die.
This is the so-called immortalpart of us.
And frankly, the EarlyChristians just call this our
"spirit"...
our"spirit." So the words"soul"and"spirit" are synonyms.
(38:44):
They mean the same thing.
And it's like you just said aminute ago, John.
That this part of our humanmakeup, this third circle-- our
spirit, our soul-- is the key...
is the key...
to stopping this selfishbehavior, and trouble, and
(39:04):
failure, in our lives.
John (39:06):
Yeah, this is definitely the most interesting part, and
the most important part, of ourmakeup.
But strange as it may seem, it'salso the part that many, many,
people know the least about.
Owen (39:24):
Absolutely.
I'd hate to say it, but I was inmy 30s before I realized I had a
soul or a spirit.
That's how scary it is.
Oh, and here's something we needto clear up just real quick as a
sidebar, John.
So there's no confusion.
There's a difference betweenGod's Holy Spirit, the Third
(39:45):
Part of the Trinity, Who isSpiritual, Who is the source of
Spirituality.
And our human spirit, which-- aswe've said, in its original
condition-- is unspiritual.
The two of these are verydifferent things.
God's Holy Spirit, which is thesource of Spirituality.
And our human spirit, which isthe source of selfishness(poorly
(40:08):
worded).
Well(correction), it doesn'tfight off selfishness, frankly.
(Chuckles.) We'll talk aboutthat later.
But these are two very differentthings.
John (40:17):
And that is so important.
In fact, I don't know anythingmore important than
understanding that.
Owen (40:26):
Well, and here's a tip.
On pages 86 through 88 of thebook, Saving Christianity--
that's back in Chapter 7-- wehave a full description of our
inner spirits.
We even quote examples from theEarly Christian records that
describe our inner spirit andhow it works.
It makes a really amazingreading.
John (40:49):
Yeah, and as you know, the truth is that our inner spirits
-- represented by Circle#3 onthe flowchart-- are the key to
Spiritual growth.
And they're also the key toliving a life of peace, of
healing, and hope.
Owen (41:07):
Uh- uh, those are wonderful, wonderful points,
John.
And well, I see we'reapproaching the end of this
episode.
But I want to make one final,tragic, point.
And it's this (41:18):
Selfishness flows up the flowchart, as we said,
from Circle#1.
Floods our mind with selfishness-- this is Circle#2.
And then it doesn't stop.
It continues, as we saidearlier.
It flows down the left side ofthe flowchart to Circle#3, which
is our spirit.
(41:39):
And it floods that too.
Think about it.
So what happens?
If you look at this flowchart inthe book, or here in the
transcript.
When it's complete, the entireflowchart is black.
And that means that anon-Christian's motivational
system is completely selfish.
John (42:02):
That's right.
Because neither our mind nor ourspirit can resist the flood of
selfishness coming up fromCircle#1.
And that's why naturalmotivation-- not sometimes, but
is always-- unspiritual.
Owen (42:22):
Hmm.
That's right.
And again, our friends will wantto see this black flowchart.
And it appears in our transcripthere at about 42 minutes.
And it's also on page 89 of thebook, Saving Christianity.
But it's a kind of a gruesomething to look at it.
(42:44):
Being completely black that way.
And knowing the symbology of thecolor that we've talked about:
That black representingselfishness and bad things.
And you know, John we're beingconfronted again.
I just have to say this.
We talked in previous episodes,that many people have been
(43:06):
taught that humans are born"good." Remember those
discussions?
And that humans will always dothe"right" thing in a pinch.
And of course, that fails thelogic test, that we said in one
episode.
That fails the test of commonsense.
We know humans don't always dothe sweet, kind, thing in a
(43:30):
pinch.
And so, we wanted to deal withthat.
And we know that we cannot growSpiritually until we do deal
with that.
And so this chart is right inour face, now.
We can paste it on our mirrorand look at it.
And it's confronting us withthat fact.
Our Birthright Motivation isselfishness.
(43:52):
And in future episodes, we'regoing to give all the details of
each of these three circles.
And we're going to talk aboutexactly how motivation works in
people-- for good and for bad.
And those will be incrediblyimportant discussions.
But you know, John?
I hate it, man.
(44:12):
But there's that big clock onthe wall staring at me.
It's time to close up shop fortoday.
But this has been anotherincredible episode.
And I'm just sorry to say ourtime is up.
But the Good News is we've gotan infinite number of wonderful
episodes comingevery-other-Tuesday, we're going
(44:34):
to publish one for our friends.
John (44:36):
Yeah, time is up, unfortunately.
But believe it or not, we dohave more interesting and
exciting episodes coming up.
For example, we're going to"getpersonal" next.
Don't let that scare you.
You and I, Owen, we're going totalk about ourselves a little
bit.
Hope that's not too boring.
Owen (44:56):
That's going to be a little embarrassing.
(Chuckles.) But we're going todo it anyway.
You know, it's time to"spill ourguts"(chuckles).
In the meantime, our friendsshould remember that this is
Episode 10, and that our scriptand recording of it are on the
Christian Family Online website.
And they just simply go to: goSCpod.com on the internet-- (45:15):
undefined
goSCpod.com on the internet.
Also, in our early episodes, wehad a different address.
It was CFOpods.com.
And that still works too.
But for now, John and Shannon,this is Owen Allen...
John (45:37):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer Shannon Wolf
...
Owen (45:42):
...
saying (45:42):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (46:04):
Owen and John end the episode.
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