April 27, 2021 • 60 mins
An interview of Owen Allen, co-founder of the "Saving Christianity" podcast, by Shannon Wolfe, the podcast's producer. Shannon probes Owen's life with vigor, asking questions about how Owen grew up in Florida – the miracles in his life – why he wrote the book, Saving Christianity – and why he co-founded this podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Shannon Wolfe (00:00):
Shannon Wolfe opens the episode by saying:
Hello, friends! This is Episode11 in our bi-weekly series of
the"Saving Christianity"episodes, coming to you
every-other-Tuesday fromChristian Family Online.
(00:23):
I'm Shannon Wolf, the producerof the"Saving Christianity"
podcast, and I'm your host forthis episode.
The title is episode is:"Owen'sStory." Again, that's"Owen's
Story." And in this episode, I'mgoing to interview Dr.
Owen Allen, the co-founder ofthis podcast.
I think we'd all like to have alittle bit more insight into
what God has done in his life inthe past, and what God is doing
(00:44):
today.
We'd also like to know why hewrote the challenging book,
Saving Christianity.
And why he co-founded thispodcast.
So let's welcome Dr.
Owen Allen to our show.
Owen (00:56):
Well, thank you, Shannon! And God bless you, for taking
your time out of your busyschedule to plan this interview.
And God's blessings on all ofour friends who're listening out
there in Podcast Land.
Shannon (01:12):
Well, Dr.
Owen, I've grown to know you alittle bit over the past years
or so.
And I know a little bit aboutyou.
But I think a lot of ourlisteners-- including myself--
are excited to know a little bitmore about your story.
And so, let's just start fromthe beginning.
Where are you from originally?
Owen (01:28):
Well, I'm a rare animal actually.
In fact, I think recently theyput me on the"endangered species
list." I'm an actual Floridian.
And only 36% of the peopleliving in Florida were actually
native to Florida-- born there.
And that percentage is droppingevery year.
(01:49):
My parents had a home, and myfather had a career in
Jacksonville, when I was born.
And so my earliest years werespent there.
Then at about age 10...
I don't know the exact age...
my father made a career changeand moved us to Tampa.
And so I grew up in Tampa,Florida...
(02:11):
lived there'til I graduated highschool and joined the service.
But I led a wonderful life--looking back on it, Shannon-- of
a typical Floridian of thosedays: Boating, spearfishing,
camping, all kinds ofadventures.
And looking back now withperspective of years, I was
richly blessed by God to have awonderful childhood there in
(02:37):
Florida.
Shannon (02:38):
That does sound like a typical boy's life.
So that's great.
What about your your family,your parents?
Tell us a little bit more aboutthem please.
Owen (02:46):
Well, my father was a very creative person, looking back on
it.
He was an engineer and aninventor, and he worked in the
natural gas industry.
So he traveled a lot.
My mother was a homemaker.
I guess you call it that.
I had one sibling, a brother bythe name of James, two years
(03:07):
younger than me.
He like me, grew up to be apastor.
(He lived in) Columbia, SouthCarolina.
He's in heaven now.
And so are my parents.
Shannon (03:16):
"Mom" is definitely more than a homemaker.
That's one of the most importantjobs in the whole world.
(Chuckles.) Well, what aboutschool?
I know how I was in school, andall that.
But what about you?
Were you a good student?
Owen (03:29):
Nah, I wish it could be.
But not at first.
I was probably a"C" student,with a few"As,""Bs," and"Ds"
thrown in.
And there was a reason for thatShannon.
Again looking back, as the oldsaying goes,"You have 20/20
hindsight, and Zero/Zeroforesight." I was too distracted
(03:51):
by outside activities to be agood student.
Looking back on it now, Irealize that from my youngest
days, I had a very strong desirefor travel and adventure.
And I didn't understand that atthe time, of course.
I just thought that was how youlived.
And I was too distracted bythose desires to really excel in
(04:13):
the classroom.
Shannon (04:15):
Got you! So, when you said that you were distracted by
"outside activities"...
did you...
are you talking about, likesports?
What are you talking about withthose activities?
Owen (04:24):
Yes, and no, as far as sports are concerned.
Frankly, I was too distractedwith these other activities for
the intense training and timecommitment that the sport teams
require.
So I didn't-- did not-- playbaseball, basketball, and
football, like most youngpeople.
(04:45):
I did letter in track.
And I was good at track, and didthat because that team required
the least practice and trainingthat I could get on and still
letter.
And like I said, I was good atit.
In fact, in my junior and senioryears of high school, we were
Tampa Bay Champions, and alsoFlorida State Champions.
Shannon (05:10):
Well, that's great.
So, besides track, were thereany other"outside activities"
that you were talking about thatkept you from being a good
student?
Owen (05:18):
Well, again, being adventuresome, I guess, from the
time I could walk...
I don't know when it started.
But as very small child, Iremember walking in the woods
with my"Red Ryder" Daisy BB gun.
I remember camping in thebackyard.
Of course I joined Scouts.
The big news is when I was...
(05:39):
I don't know, 12 or 13, maybe...
my best friend, Don Davis, and Ibegan spearfishing and
snorkeling under Gandy bridge inTampa Bay.
And looking back on it, I don'tknow why my parents(chuckles)
allowed this.
But we'd get on our bicyclesbefore sunrise, and ride out to
the marina.
(05:59):
And we'd rent a row boat.
Of course we didn't have anoutboard motor.
But we'd rent a rowboat.
We'd row out to Gandy bridge,and tie up under it.
And we'd stay there all day,spearfishing and snorkeling.
We even had lunch, and a littlerest break in the boat.
And then we'd stay out tosunset.
(06:19):
Then we'd ride-- row-- back tothe Marina.
Get back on our bikes, and ridehome.
So it was a wonderful,incredible life.
I still tell stories about itthat people don't believe.
But we had adventures withsharks, and dolphins, and manta
rays, and every kind of fish andmarine life.
And you know, Shannon, sincethose days, I've loved boats and
(06:43):
the sea ever since.
And there's something elsefunny, I'll just throw in here.
That was the time period when Ialso started my first company, I
call it.
It was a lawn maintenance deal,work, and operation.
And I had an agreement withneighbors, three, four neighbors
-- I believe there were four--to maintain their lawns for
(07:07):
them.
And I did that every month.
I would mow and trim theirlawns.
So I always had pocket money forScouts, and spearfishing,
camping, boats, movies, anythingI wanted to do.
And looking back on it, I guessI was active and independent.
Maybe too much so.
And then the final nail in thecoffin: When I was about 15, my
(07:31):
parents moved to a small ranchoutside of Tampa, on a place
called Valrico Lake.
And of course t hat added horseshows and rodeos and all kinds
of adventures to my many, manydistractions.
Shannon (07:46):
So, I understand that you were a big reader, as well
as challenged.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Owen (07:48):
Well, I don't understand that myself, frankly.
Reading is something I've doneas long as I can remember.
And frankly, I believe it's atalent that God gave me.
I remember-- this is funny,Shannon-- at a very young age,
when my parents would go on cartrips.
(08:08):
I'd sit in the back seat andlook out the window, and I would
read the billboards to them aswe went along.
And I remember my parentsglancing at each other and, you
know, looking surprised, when Iwould read some of those
billboards.
And looking back on it, that'sprobably the only thing that
kept me from failing out ofschool(chuckles)-- was my habit,
(08:32):
or talent, for reading.
Here's one last quick story.
I'll never forget that there wasa branch of the Tampa public
library only one block from myschool.
So after school-- check this out-- instead of riding the school
bus home with the otherchildren, I'd walk down to this
library and read all afternoon,until dinner time.
(08:54):
Then I'd catch the city bus andtake that home for dinner.
And you know, I never readfiction.
I still don't like fiction.
I only read nonfiction.
Mostly history.
And I loved...
and to this day I love...
exciting biographies ofexplorers, and soldiers, and
other adventuresome people.
Shannon (09:16):
I love that.
Just movies that I've seen, youknow, as a kid.
And just thinking about a boy'slife.
This really and truly soundslike something that was a really
good"boy adventure." And so itwas just wholesome, and who
would think today that you couldwalk away from your school, and
walk to somewhere else, and thenride the city buses-- and all
(09:36):
that as a child! I mean, that'sjust...
but again...
that's just what makes yourchildhood unique to you.
But also unusual.
And so...
but let's shift gears here, andget a little closer to the theme
of this episode, and let's talkabout your Spiritual life.
Were you raised in a Christianhome?
Owen (09:55):
Hmm.
Well, the answer to that is,"Yes." And again, that's another
incredible blessing that Ididn't appreciate at the time.
My parents were Christians.
And so, I've been a member ofInstitutional Christianity since
what they call"The Cradle Roll."And I'm still a member today.
But our family, when growing up,we had devotions and Bible
(10:18):
readings at meals.
We had bedtime prayers at night.
My parents were active.
They sang in the choir.
They served on committees.
I remember as a small childhelping my mother carry baskets
to needy people, and ringingtheir doorbell, and giving them
baskets of food and stuff.
(10:39):
And those are very earlymemories.
My brother and I attendedmorning services, evening
services, Sunday school, youthgroup, youth choir, summer camp.
And oddly enough, Shannon...
as I mentioned earlier...
we both became pastors later inlife.
Shannon (10:56):
And that, to me, sounds like a typical family.
It sounds like, you know, whatwe think of as"I go to church."
This is probably the-- quote--one billion or so that claim
that they're"Christians," kindof thing.
But it stops at, for somepeople, it stops at attending
(11:16):
morning services.
Attending evening services.
Sunday school.
Youth group.
Youth choir, et cetera, etcetera.
But-- what we really want toknow now is when were you
"saved"?
In other words, when did you"give your life to Christ"?
Owen (11:31):
Hallelujah.
Well, you know, this issomething I've thought about a
lot, Shannon.
Like many Christians, I don'tremember the exact day that I
was"saved." I know somedenominations demand that.
But I was very young.
I don't remember the day.
But I do remember exactly how ithappened.
(11:51):
I was about 11 at the time.
And we were members of one ofthese denominations that was
very formal, and had a veryrigid program.
And part of this program, eachand every Lord's Day, was that
the entire congregation stood uptogether in unison, and recited
"The Apostle's Creed." This isevery single Lord's Day.
(12:16):
The whole congregation-- men,women, and children of all ages
-- stood up and recited thosebeautiful words:"I believe in
God the Father Almighty, makerof heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His onlySon, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the HolyGhost.
Born of the Virgin Mary.
(12:37):
Suffered under Pontius Pilate..." You know, Shannon, I could
quote those 110 words instantlyin my sleep to this day.
So...
this one particular Lord's Day,we're all standing reciting
these words.
And a very strange, clearthought popped in my head.
(12:58):
And that thought was:"I reallydo believe this! I really
believe this!" And I rememberfeeling surprised at the
thought, and having a tinglingsensation.
And I realized that I really didbelieve"The Apostle's Creed."
Every word of the 110 words.
(13:21):
And I believe it today.
And so I did believe JesusChrist was God, and was
conceived by the Holy ghost, andwas born of the Virgin Mary, and
all the rest of it.
And so, I think that was theday, Shannon, that the Holy
Spirit indwelled me, andbaptized my inner spirit in
(13:42):
supernatural power.
And that's what we call"gettingsaved." Or"accepting Christ." Or
being"born again." Of course, Ididn't know...
and here's the problem...
I didn't know that being"saved"only made me an infant
Christian.
Nobody told me that.
And so, like millions of otherChristians-- you mentioned
(14:05):
"billions" of us earlier.
I assumed that there was nothingelse to be done.
That's all I needed to do.
And I didn't find out, Shannon,'til many years later, that I
also needed to grow, and becomea mature Christian.
Shannon (14:23):
Well, earlier you mentioned a title.
And I don't think it's like theRotary Club, or the Lion's Club,
or the Moose Lodge, or whatever.
I don't think it's actually aphysical organization.
But you mentioned that you werea member of the"Institutional
Christianity" since you wereborn.
(14:44):
And so, that's a curious word,or couple of words, there:
"Institutional Christianity."Tell us a little bit more about
what you mean by that.
Owen (14:55):
Well, that's a great question, Shannon, frankly.
And I'm sure that it took memany, many decades of life to
figure that out myself.
But, if you think about it, asan organizational group-- or a
group of a couple of billionpeople-- Christianity can be
divided into two very broadcategories, or groups.
(15:18):
The first category is what wecall"small groups," that meet
informally in homes.
And they let the Holy spiritguide their worship.
And that's what the originalChristians had.
That's all they had in the earlycenturies.
Now today, there are still thosegroups.
They still exist.
(15:39):
But they're very rare.
Now, the second category islarge groups that meet formally
in large buildings, and have arigid program that guides their
worship.
Frankly, that's the...
what we call today...
the"Denominations." That wouldbe the Baptists, Methodists,
(15:59):
Lutherans, Catholics, and allthe others.
And they are what we usuallyrefer to as"Institutional
Christianity." They're formally,many times in most cases,
they're legal corporations.
And they have, you know,bookkeepers and all the things
that go with it.
(16:19):
And they are formally aninstitution.
And that's what I've been amember of since"The Cradle
Roll." Frankly, I never saw myfirst Early Christian Type Small
Group until I was in mythirties.
Shannon (16:34):
Well, like most, since you've been a member of the--
quote-- Chris...
excuse me,"InstitutionalChristianity" your whole life.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Has your membership been a happyone?
Owen (16:48):
"Has it been a happy one?" Well, how do I answer that,
Shannon?
Like most Christians, I wastaught to attend the
Denominations by my parents.
So I didn't know, and theydidn't know, and nobody else
knew, that there was anythingelse that we could do.
But,"No." To be deathbed honest,as I say,"No." Attending the
(17:11):
denominations hasn't always beenhappy.
And in fact, some of my most...
the most...
painful experiences in my lifehave happened as being member of
some of the Denominations.
Shannon (17:27):
Well, and having been an administrator since I was in
my early 20s, it is hard to hearthat people do have painful
experiences often accompaniedwith denominationalism, or with
the"church," just in general.
So what do you mean by whenyou're saying"painful
experiences"?
Give us a little bit moreinsight into that please.
Owen (17:50):
Well, let's see.
Let's back up one step.
I said that after I was"saved"in Tampa as a child, I was an
infant Christian until my 30s.
And that meant that thesupernatural power of the Holy
spirit laid dormant in me allthose years.
And I did know that of course.
And that He had very littleinfluence over my early
(18:14):
behavior.
We've talked so much aboutbehavior in these episodes.
And this is one of the reasonswhy my behavior-- as we said in
the previous episode, I didn'tknow it at the time-- was
totally selfish all these, allthose, early years.
And the Holy Spirit'ssupernatural power had very
(18:37):
little influence over me.
Shannon (18:40):
Gotcha.
So, really, truly, no one taughtyou how to grow Spiritually?
No one taught you how to let theHoly Spirit guide your daily
life?
Owen (18:51):
Well, that's right.
And you know what?
That lack of guidance by theHoly Spirit was the root of all
the trouble in my life.
And I had my share of baddecisions and troubles in the
service, and college, and otherplaces.
And as we've said (19:07):
That's also the root of all the trouble in
today's Christianity.
We've talked about that,Shannon, in earlier episodes:
That Institutional Christianitytoday...
just recently, there was aGallup-- a new Gallup poll came
(19:28):
out on that this week.
But Christian attendance isdeclining.
And also, the Christianinfluence in our culture is
declining.
Shannon (19:39):
Got you! So can you give us an example then of a
time when you were growing upwhen you were not taught the
importance of being guided bythe Holy Spirit?
Owen (19:48):
Oh, my goodness.
(Chuckles.) What a question!Well-- I mean-- my whole life
until my 30s would answer that.
But let me think a second.
I could give you many, probably,from my childhood.
Some of them humorous.
I don't know.
But here's one that pops in myhead.
When I was...
my brother and I, I mentionedearlier, always went to summer
(20:11):
camp.
This was a denominationalChristian camp.
And I remember one year, Ibelieve I was 14 that summer.
One of the things that we didwas when camp was over, I've
forgotten now how many weeksthat was-- but several weeks.
And when camp was over, wealways had a graduation night.
And we had a banquet.
(20:32):
And we had a service.
And all the parents and thepastors of the different
congregations represented by thechildren, came to the camp that
night to see the service andhave the banquet.
And then the next morning, wepacked our cars and went home.
So one of the things that we didis this...
(20:53):
you're not going to believethis, but it's true...
at that graduation service andthat banquet, each of our dorms
-- we lived in dorms-- had topresent a skit, a little play.
And these skits had to beapproved by the camp counselors.
And they were supposed topresent a Christian theme.
(21:17):
So check this out.
That year, when I was 14, ourdorm did our skit for the
parents that night.
And we did a"Frankenstein" skit(laughter), a"Frankenstein"
skit.
One of the boys built up someplatform shoes, and he dressed
(21:37):
up like Frankenstein.
And the rest of us dressed uplike the ragged villagers.
And in the skit, we pretended tofight Frankenstein with these
long sticks that we'd gonethrough the woods and picked up.
And here's the beautiful thing.
We got a standing ovation fromthe counselors, the parents, and
(21:58):
the pastors, when our skit wasover.
But here's the point (22:02):
All of the dorms that night presented skits
based on book and movie themeslike we did.
And nobody told us-- nobody toldus-- maybe because apparently it
didn't occur to the counselors,and the parents, and the pastors
(22:24):
in the audience, that our skitswere not Spiritual.
They weren't even Christianskits.
Nobody at the camp seemed torealize that our skits did not
have a Christian message, andhad nothing to do with teaching
us children how to growSpiritually.
Shannon (22:47):
Well, that's definitely interesting.
I definitely can see the pictureof what you're trying to say a
little more clearly now.
So, you're not against-- quote--"Institutional Christianity" as
such.
You just feel that it doesn'tteach its members how to have
Spiritual behavior.
Owen (23:04):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
I love the"InstitutionalChristianity." Always have,
always will.
I'm active in it today.
I love the people in it.
But let's face it.
You've got to...
you know, it's...
Shannon, in this podcast, we'retrying to be absolutely what I
(23:26):
call"deathbed honest." We'retrying to be practical.
We're trying to be logical.
We're trying to look at thingswith"our feet on the ground."
And remember, we've said so manytimes in these episodes: The
Gallup polls show that today'saverage Christian is no more
Spiritual than a non-Christian.
(23:50):
Think about that a second.
That's devastating.
And that's why I wrote the book,Saving Christianity.
And that's why John and I haveco-founded this podcast.
And we want people to have abook to read, and episodes to
listen to, that will teach themhow to be-- how to have--
(24:12):
Spiritual behavior.
Let me add this real quick,Shannon.
Somebody asked me this about aweek ago.
And here's how I answered them.
I said, look, what if I was aQuality Control Manager at a
John Deere factory buildingtractors.
(24:33):
And what if those tractorsstarted coming off the assembly
line with one wheel missing.
Now, I'm the Quality Manager.
Would I be critical?
Would I be doing something ugly?
If I went to the foreman of thatassembly line and said,"Pardon
me.
But do you know that tractorsare coming off with one wheel
(24:56):
missing?
And we ought to do something!"That's silly...
but that's what Quality Controlpeople do! And they're not
criticized.
And nobody's mad at them.
Because they're supposed tocontrol the quality in a
process, and highlight anydeviations from that quality.
(25:17):
And that's sort of how I feelabout Institutional
Christianity.
I just see when a wheel comesoff, and I feel like I should
tell somebody,
Shannon (25:27):
Well, there's definitely no use in having a
tractor with only three wheels!(Chuckles.) And that's
definitely something that you'vegot to say something about that.
Or you're going to shut down theplant.
Because you're making a bunch ofjunk.
And so, but you said something,Dr.
Owen, that I think is very muchworth repeating again.
And it hurts to hear it.
But it also...
(25:48):
you want to take aself-evaluation when you hear
this kind information, and go,"Okay, where am I at?" This is a
self-check for me.
Just even as you know, as apastor myself.
I still...
we need to be taking self-checksall the time.
And so, you give a poll aboutChristians.
(26:10):
And it hurts on one hand.
But on the other hand, it causesus to go, like you're saying,
with this Quality Control, andnot produce tractors with three
wheels.
But also, not to produce,Institutional Christians.
What did you say that poll wasagain?
Owen (26:28):
Well, there have been a lot of these polls, Shannon.
And I love the Gallup pollsbecause I knew Gallup
personally.
And in fact, I had dinner withhim one night in Washington many
years ago.
George Gallop, Jr.
He's deceased now.
He's in heaven.
He was a Christian.
And we talked over dinner aboutwhat these Gallup poll show.
And here's what they show (26:53):
That today's average Christian is no
more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
And that's why-- to tie back asecond-- that's why the
counselors, and parents, andpastors, at summer camp that
year thought"Frankenstein" was aChristian skit.
Shannon (27:16):
Hmm.
Interesting.
I want to know, is this...
was this skit in black and whiteback then?
Or was it in color?
(Laughter.) I shouldn't havesaid that! Picking on your age!
Sorry.
Owen (27:26):
It was in total color.
No, I believe it was really*black*.
I think the"black dog"performed!(A reference to
natural human selfishnessperforming.)
Shannon (27:33):
All right.
Well, let's talk a little bitmore about your book.
Actually, before we do thatthough, let's go back to how you
grew up.
And you were telling us a littlebit about your high school
years.
What happened after high school?
Owen (27:48):
Well, I did graduate, and I went directly into the
military.
Young people today don'trealize, I guess, Shannon, that
America had the draft in thosedays.
And every boy had to go, whetheror not he wanted to.
But I was anxious to go becauseof my very strong need for
travel and adventure.
(28:08):
And so, I joined the Marinesright after high school
graduation, and left for activeduty.
And while I was on active dutythough...
sort of a tragedy, I guess in mylife.
It still hurts a little.
But while I was on active duty,my father had another career
change.
And he moved the family to SouthCarolina.
(28:29):
So, when I got out of theMarines, off active duty.
I had to go there to join myfamily.
And South Carolina became myhome then for several years.
And I never returned to Floridaexcept for vacations.
Shannon (28:45):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
So, when you were in SouthCarolina, where did you work at?
What did you do when you werethere?
Owen (28:52):
Well,(chuckles) I found out that-- real quick-- that I
didn't have any civilian skills.
We need to remember that I justwas a high school graduate at
that time.
And then had been in theMarines.
And so I found out there were nojobs there for ex-Marine tank
commanders.
(Chuckles.) So I tried severalunsuitable jobs for a few
(29:15):
months.
I remember I worked in a printshop, and different things.
And then one day my fathercalled me in.
And he said that what I reallyneeded to do, to shape up my
life, was to enroll in college.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout that, oddly enough.
You talk about"clueless." Ididn't know anything growing up.
So, except to have fun.
(29:38):
So I did.
I enrolled in college in SouthCarolina.
And that was a big turning pointin my life.
Really the first one.
Shannon (29:48):
Gotcha! So what did college have to do with giving
you a big turning point in yourlife?
Owen (29:52):
Well, you have to remember, now, what we've talked
about.
The only civilian job experiencethat I had at the time was my
teenage years on the ranch onValrico Lake, Florida.
And so this sounds strangetoday.
I can't even believe I'm sayingit.
But when I arrived on thecampus, you had to pick a major.
(30:15):
And I enrolled in college withan agricultural major, thinking
that maybe someday I might own aranch or something.
And that was when God stepped inwith the first really big
supernatural miracle of my life.
Shannon (30:31):
Your first big miracle was in college?
Owen (30:34):
Tell me about it.
It was.
And you know, it happened,Shannon, in my third semester.
I was sitting in my dorm oneday, minding my own business,
and the phone rang.
And a voice told me to report tothe office of Professor Patricia
K.
Hill, was her name.
I still remember her.
An Elderly lady.
(30:57):
And she was my Englishprofessor.
Well, naturally, I thought I wasin trouble-- that I had failed a
paper, or something.
So I jumped up and went to heroffice.
And when I got there, she sat medown and talked to me like what
they used to call"a Dutchuncle." She really laid it on
the line.
(31:17):
And she told me that I waswasting my time being in
agriculture.
She said that I had more writingtalent than any of our other
students.
And she said that I needed tochange my major immediately from
agriculture to English.
(Chuckles.) Can you imagine!Well, here I'm sitting here like
(31:39):
a dumb bunny, wearing cowboyboots and everything.
And I'd never thought about acareer in writing.
I had no idea that I had writingtalent.
And the strangest part, though,about this entire thing, is that
I was completely calm andpeaceful as Professor Hill told
(32:02):
me these things.
And I've thought about that,Shannon.
Remember, I was still an infantChristian during these years.
And so I didn't understand thatthe reason that I felt so calm
and peaceful was that the HolySpirit was guiding me in this
massive change in my life.
Shannon (32:24):
Well, what happened?
Did you actually change majors?
Owen (32:26):
Well, I did.
But here's the funny part.
I didn't question professorHill.
I didn't phone my parents.
I didn't even contact my classadvisor on the campus.
Instead, I stood up, I leftprofessor Hill's office, I
walked straight to theregistrar's office, changed my
(32:47):
major from agriculture toEnglish-- and in less than an
hour-- the Holy Spirit had givenme a completely new life.
Shannon (32:57):
Interesting.
So, exactly what was this newlife that He gave you?
Owen (33:02):
Well, there were two more semesters.
The next two semesters for me,there on the campus, a whole new
world opened that I didn't evenknow existed.
I was appointed a tutor for theEnglish department.
I was appointed a writer for thecampus magazine.
I was elected president of thecampus writer's club.
(33:24):
And this is funny.
I even began to socialize withthe English professors on the
campus, instead of with theother students.
And I would go to their homesand have dinner with them, and
all that sort of stuff.
And so, I set new goals for mywhole life: First to become a
college professor.
And second to become a best-selling author.
Shannon (33:47):
Well, have you reached those goals yet?
Owen (33:49):
I did reach them.
But sweetheart, it was manyyears later.
(Laughter.) Because due tofamily and financial problems, I
had to drop out of college in myjunior year and enter the world
of business.
But here's what's interesting.
I guess I became what they calla"professional student" then.
(34:12):
Because for years and yearsafter that, while I was fairly
successful in business, Icontinued to take a night school
and online courses.
And you know what, Shannon?
Eventually that way I earnedthree undergraduate degrees, and
two graduate degrees, includingmy doctorate in organizational
(34:36):
behavior.
And I even had advanced studiesat Oxford in England.
Shannon (34:41):
Well, that's very interesting.
It's a far cry from agriculture,that's for sure.
(Chuckles.) And my wife, shewould say she was the same
thing.
She would...
if she could be just a"professional student," she
would go to school all the time.
And so that really, truly is anincredible story.
Dr.
Owen, thank you so much.
Let's look a little bit back nowat Spiritual growth for a
(35:02):
minute.
You said that you were still aninfant several times during
these years.
When did you actually start togrow Spiritually?
Owen (35:12):
Well, that's another incredible miraculous story,
actually.
You know...
sometimes...
I'll say this to the side here,Shannon.
I've often said in my life thatone way that I know when God is
doing something in my life--when I know that something is
(35:32):
God's will in my life-- is whenit's the last thing I would ever
have thought about.
Think about that a second.
You know, God's rightintelligent.
And I'm certainly not.
And so, just like the storyabout Professor Hill.
The next big turning point in mylife was when the Holy Spirit
(35:55):
moved a second time.
Overnight, virtually-- just likein Dr.
Hill's office-- He gave me acompletely new life.
The sad thing is I was 33 at thetime.
I had wasted all of those years.
And this happened in a New Yorkcity hotel room.
Shannon (36:13):
Uh, you started Spiritual growth in hotel room
(laughter) in New York city,okay?
Owen (36:18):
That would scare anybody! But you know, the truth is,
Shannon, that I lived in St.
Louis at the time.
I had long since left SouthCarolina, and was comfortable in
St.
Louis.
And I was the co-founder andexecutive vice president of a
computer company at the time.
(36:38):
It was a wonderful company.
In fact, believe this or not, weowned the copyright to the words
"Data Base," if you can imaginethat in those days.
And...
but the company was in financialtrouble.
And I won't go into all thereasons why.
But the reason I was in New Yorkthat day was to raise money to
(36:58):
save the company.
And my efforts failed.
And I had come out of a verydisastrous conference with a
bunch of stock brokers andinvestors.
And they had refused to help.
And so, walking back to myhotel, I realized for the first
time that the company was goingto fail-- was going to close--
(37:22):
and I was probably going to loseeverything.
So I went back to my room, andthis was very unlike me then,
obviously-- I hadn't doneanything like this since
childhood-- but I knelt andprayed in that room for help...
prayed to God for help.
And for the first time in mylife, I experienced what
(37:45):
Christians call Spirit-filling.
This was my first Spirit-fillingand, you know, my crisis was
dramatic at that time.
And so the experience with theHoly spirit was dramatic, too.
And my whole room f illed with ablue mist...
and I felt like I was far away.
(38:07):
Like I was in the bottom of awell.
Shannon (38:10):
Well, that's very interesting! So what happened
next?
Owen (38:13):
Well, I don't know...
uh...
looking back on it now.
I do a lot of looking back, asyou can tell.
(Chuckles.) It was a visionexperience.
But it was like I was talking toGod in the room, Shannon.
And He revealed everything thatwas going to happen to me, and
(38:33):
what the outcome of it all wasgoing to be.
And it was one of the mostSpiritual experiences of my
life.
It hasn't(chuckles) beensurpassed but a couple of times
since then.
In fact, it changed me socompletely that when I got home,
friends on the street didn'trecognize me.
Shannon (38:55):
Huh.
So, the company...
did the company fail?
Owen (38:59):
Yeah, it totally failed.
It did close.
I did lose everything.
And so, there at the age of 33,I started over from scratch,
exactly as the Holy Spirit said.
But here's the Good News again.
Just like in Professor Hill'soffice, I was completely calm
(39:21):
and peaceful.
Never had any stress.
And overnight, virtually, theHoly Spirit gave me a whole new
life.
He moved me to North Carolina,where we still are today.
He guided me in starting a newcompany-- if you can imagine
that-- just weeks after the oldcompany had failed.
(39:42):
And I operated that new companyinternationally for the next 45
years.
But here's the funny part...
and I didn't expect this either...
He also started me in ministry.
And all this within just a fewmonths.
And I want our friends who arelistening to this to know that
(40:04):
that's the power of Spiritualgrowth.
The Holy Spirit can completelychange our lives virtually
overnight.
Shannon (40:13):
Wow! So, just to kind of slow down a little bit.
Let's clear up a point that youjust said.
You said the Holy Spirit startedyou in the-- quote--"ministry"
then.
However, you had no religiouseducation.
How is that possible?
Owen (40:29):
Well, that's true.
That is funny, isn't it?
Talk about a miraculous God--which, I might point out, He is!
Yeah, I had read a lot, and hada lot of education.
But I didn't have one day of...
I guess we'd call it religioustraining.
But so, that was part of themiraculous new life that the
(40:49):
Holy Spirit gave me when Hemoved me to North Carolina.
And we've got to remember thatthe Bible says,"*Nothing* is
impossible with God." I believethe Bible in Luke says that four
or five times.
I think there are 50 differentverses that indicate that.
And I was thinking the otherday, that was a song, wasn't it?
(41:12):
"Nothing is impossible, when youput your trust in God." Glory,
hallelujah.
So that's what I did.
And when I got, obviously, toNorth Carolina, I joined the
institution, as we've beentalking.
I joined a Christiancongregation near my home there,
and-- check this out now-- soon,without my knowledge or even
(41:36):
guessing it, a group of theteenagers in the congregation
sent a delegation...
went to the pastor.
And asked the pastor and theelders for me to be hired as
their Youth Pastor.
And so, when I was called in andpresented with this...
and I don't know why I did it,but I did.
(41:58):
(Chuckles.) I accepted theposition.
Well-- I know why I did it! It was Holy Spirit! I accepted the
position.
And that was my gateway intoChristian service.
I entered the ministry throughthe back door, if you want to
call it that, of the YouthMinistry.
Because in that denomination,that required less rigorous
(42:22):
religious education.
Shannon (42:24):
Okay.
Well, that makes sense.
I understand.
And I also understand that'swhen you were exposed to Early
Christian Type Small Groups forthe first time.
Is that right?
Owen (42:35):
Well, there you go again.
It's just absolutely amazing.
I mean, I'm surprised in myselffor giving these answers,
Shannon, the way God wove all ofthis together in a beautiful,
beautiful picture.
But yeah, a Spiritual awakeningwas going on in that part of
(42:55):
North Carolina at the time.
I guess(it was) what weChristians call a"Revival." And
people were meeting in smallgroups in their homes to pray
about this revival.
And I didn't know any of this atthe time, but the Holy spirit
was moving in new and differentways in the small groups.
And there were healings, andmiracles of all kinds happening
(43:19):
in people's homes in these smallgroups.
Well of course, I was in theYouth Ministry.
And the young people startedtalking about all this stuff.
So I began to visit some ofthese groups with them-- where
the young people were going.
And this is where I first heardthe term"Spirit-filled." And
(43:40):
this was when I realized for thefirst time...
because remember, I didn't haveany religious training...
this was where I realized forthe first time that my early--
earlier-- experience in that NewYork hotel room had been my
first Spirit-filling.
Well, eventually...
(44:00):
it's a long, long story...
but eventually, I formed a FirstCentury Style Small Group in my
own home.
And those years were some of mygreatest Spiritual growth, and
the most incredible Spiritualmiracles.
Shannon (44:15):
So is this also when you discovered the-- quote--
"Early Christian Lifestyle" aswell?
Owen (44:21):
Yeah.
That all happened during thisvery same period.
I had met a man, in one of thesemeetings, who was a retired
military officer.
And he's a very rare person.
He's in heaven now.
But he had studied the EarlyChristian Lifestyle for years.
And so he invited me to come tohis home over a period of weeks.
(44:45):
And I sat with him on his patio.
I don't know why, but that'swhere we sat.
He had some nice patiofurniture.
And he walked me through theBible.
And he showed me how the EarlyChristians had originally lived
and worshiped.
Of course, I'd never heard anyof this before(chuckles), even
(45:06):
though I had been a Christiansince childhood.
He explained to me what hadhappened to me in that New York
hotel room.
And he explained what washappening in the Youth Ministry.
And he explained what washappening in my small group.
And he was first person to evertell me that I could have the
(45:31):
Fruit of the Spirit, and theGifts of the Spirit, in my daily
life.
And that's what I'm calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle." So
this man, again, I met him--quotes--"by coincidence." You
know the old saying,"If God hadmade His name'coincidence,'
there wouldn't be any Atheists."So, this man entered my life in
(45:56):
one of these small groups.
And it was another tremendousturning point in my life.
You can see, I've(chuckles) hada lot of"turning points" in my
life from the Holy Spirit.
Shannon (46:07):
And that's all great! And I love that part of your
story.
So now you've written a book,and you've started a podcast,
and you're teaching others howto live the"Early Christian
Lifestyle"?
Owen (46:21):
That's the plan! John Shields and I thought it was
about time for somebody,somewhere, to step up to the
plate, and tell people whyChristianity is in crisis today,
and what we can do about it.
Shannon (46:38):
So you're mentioning a "crisis"...
Christianity in a"crisis."Actually, several times I've
heard this throughout thesepodcasts and recordings.
And so, just clear that up alittle bit more for us, please.
What does that mean?
Owen (46:53):
Well...
think about it.
As we said, InstitutionalChristianity, the modern
Denominations, is what mostChristians attend-- or did
attend-- or once attended.
But we know from what we've saidabout the Gallup polls, that the
institution, the denominations,are struggling these days.
(47:16):
Attendance is declining.
We've mentioned earlier in anepisode that in recent years
only 16 percent of the Americanpopulation regularly attended
the denominations.
And now, of course, the mostrecent polls are showing that
because of the Covid-19 pandemicof the year 2020, attendance is
(47:41):
even less.
Dropping like a brick.
And so, worse than that ofcourse, Christianity has almost
completely lost its influence onculture.
How do we know that?
Look around.
Look at the high levels ofcrime, divorce, drug abuse,
(48:02):
child abuse, all the negativebehavior in society.
And think about this.
If Institutional Christianitywas more effective teaching
Spiritual growth, can't we agreethat all that negative behavior
-- those levels of negativebehavior-- would probably not be
(48:25):
that high?
Shannon (48:26):
I think we definitely could, especially looking back.
So your book, this podcast withPastor John Shields, they say
that Christianity is definitelydeclining because of the-- quote
--"Institutional Denominations,"they're not teaching their
members how to live the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
(48:47):
Is that right?
Owen (48:48):
Yep.
That's what the book and thepodcast say.
Shannon (48:52):
So, really, what you're saying is that one of the
biggest lessons that you learnedis that living the-- quote--
"Early Christian Lifestyle" isthe answer to all of our
problems in life?
Is that right?
Owen (49:04):
That's right.
I mean, look at the stories thatI've told here just very
briefly.
The major turning points in mylife, many of which were very
troubling-- like my companyfailing in St.
Louis.
And yet, I went through all ofthose troubles with complete
peace, and complete comfort.
And the Holy Spirit turned eachcorner...
(49:27):
turned each page in the story ofmy life, so to speak...
painlessly.
And so that's why the motto thatJohn and I use in the book and
the podcast is this:"If we dowhat they did, we'll have what
they had." And we're speaking ofthe Early Christians.
Shannon (49:51):
I love that.
I love that.
What exactly does that mottomean then?
Owen (49:55):
Well(sighs)...
the"Early Christian Lifestyle,"we just mean by that: How the
original Christians lived in theearly centuries.
And their behavior, if you readthe written record-- both in the
Bible and outside of the Bible--their daily behavior was
motivated by the Holy Spirit.
(50:18):
Their motivator was the HolySpirit.
Not their"flesh." Think aboutthis.
And so they had the Fruit of theSpirit, and the Gifts of the
Spirit, in their daily behaviorat home and at work.
Shannon (50:34):
Okay.
So most of us have heard of theFruit of the Spirit, and the
Gifts of the Spirit.
Explain them a little bit moreto us.
And the application of those, asyou were just saying-- the daily
behavior that motivated theEarly Christians.
How can we implement thosetoday?
Owen (50:51):
Well, it's a funny thing, you know.
A lot of people talk about beingSpiritual, and Spiritual growth,
and rant rave.
And being Spirit-filled.
And you say,"Okay, define thatfor me.
What is that in practical,everyday terms?" And they look
blank.
So, what we're saying is thatthe Fruit of the Spirit, and the
(51:11):
Gifts of the spirit, is whatdefines Spirituality for
Christians.
That is Spiritual growth.
That is, having more of that isSpiritual growth.
And the process of doing that isbeing Spirit-filled-- what
happened to me in my New Yorkhotel room so strongly that
people didn't recognize me whenI got home.
That's what we're talking about: The Gifts of the Spirit, and the (51:32):
undefined
Fruit of the Spirit.
Shannon (51:39):
Okay.
So then, what you're saying is: If a person is Spirit-filled, (51:39):
undefined
then he or she has the Fruit ofthe Spirit, and the Gifts of the
Spirit.
And that's what you're callingliving the Early Christian
Lifestyle.
Is that right?
Owen (51:54):
Exactly, exactly.
And here's the big thing,Shannon.
Remember that the Gifts, and theFruit, are supernatural.
What happened to me in that NewYork hotel room, and in
Professor Hill's office, andthese other times that we've
discussed, was supernatural.
What I mean by that (52:14):
Those experiences did not come from my
human mind.
They came from the Holy Spirit.
And that's a big difference.
Shannon (52:26):
I love that.
You've pinpointed places in yourlife where you've seen the Lord
turn corners with you.
Our pastor, Pastor John, wouldsay you're driving a stake in
the ground.
I love that.
You've done that.
And so with that, then can youexplain the Fruit of the Spirit
and the Gifts of the Spirit alittle more clearly for us?
Owen (52:45):
Yeah.
Let's keep it very simple.
The Fruit of the Spirit is*behavior.
It's supernatural*behavior oflove, and joy, and peace, and
patience, and kindness, andgentleness, and hope, and all
those wonderful things that theBible lists.
There are about 20 of them.
And they come only from the HolySpirit.
(53:07):
And then the Gifts of theSpirit, of course, are
*abilities.
They're supernatural*abilities--abilities that humans don't have
"naturally," to make a pun(chuckles).
These are things like Spiritualdreams, and visions, and
prophecies, and healings, andwisdom, and all of these
wonderful things.
(53:28):
Again, there are about 20 ofthose supernatural abilities.
And they only come from the HolySpirit.
Shannon (53:35):
Okay.
So for me, in my mind.
You're saying that the Fruit ofthe Spirit are the kind of
things that we*do, when you saysupernatural*behavior.
And then, Gifts of the Spiritare something that we couldn't
otherwise do without the help ofthe Holy...
well, both of them, we have tohave the Holy Spirit to help us.
But more supernatural, in thatrealm of the Gifts of the
(53:57):
Spirit, are things that we get--we step back and go,"Wow! That
only comes from God!" For bothof those.
And so, the book and the podcastare teaching us how to have the
Fruit of the Spirit, and theGifts of the Spirit, in our
daily lives and behaviors.
Owen (54:14):
Exactly right.
Shannon (54:17):
Okay.
Well, Dr.
Owen, you have had quite a life.
So let's back up one last time.
This episode is supposed to beabout what God is doing in your
life.
And that would include yourfamily.
So tell us a little bit moreabout your family before we end,
please.
Owen (54:34):
Yeah, that's...
I'm glad you mentioned that,Shannon.
Yeah, you remember back in ourvery first episode, when we were
interviewed by TV personality,Manwell Grady.
I talked about my family.
And so I'll just repeat just alittle bit of that in the
interest of time.
(54:55):
I'm married to the love of mylife.
Her name is Joanna.
We've been together now foralmost 40 years.
Between us, we have fourchildren, 12 grandchildren, and
nine great-grandchildren.
So that's a heap.
And I know that our full storywould have to be for another
day.
But I do want to say thatmeeting her-- check this out--
(55:20):
was another one of those greatbig turning points in my life
that the Holy spirit changed,literally within 24-hours, my
complete life.
He put us together through anamazing sequence of supernatural
events that'd make a movie.
She was in Switzerland.
And I was in Central America.
(55:41):
And-- just-- it's a tremendousstory, that we can't get into
today.
But I would put it this way,Shannon.
When we say, Joanna and I, thatwe"have a marriage made in
heaven." We mean it.
(Chuckles.) Because our marriagereally was made in heaven.
Shannon (56:02):
That sounds great.
I...
maybe one day we can can tellthat story in a future episode.
Or maybe one day we'll make amovie, or something out of it.
(Laughter.) But for now, as wedefinitely come to the end of
this episode, I've got a fewnotes here.
So I'd like to summarize alittle bit about what I'm
feeling like that God has taughtyou over your lifetime.
Is that okay?
Owen (56:21):
Well, that ought to be interesting.
Her rip, pal.
Shannon (56:24):
(Laughter.) Okay, well here's what we have.
First (56:25):
Being a Christian can be divided into two parts.
That's being saved.
And being Spirit-filled.
Being saved is common.
Being Spirit-filled is rare.
Owen (56:36):
Yep.
Shannon (56:37):
Okay.
Second, here's what I've got: Christianity itself can be (56:37):
undefined
divided into two parts.
Institutional Christianity,which means like today's
denominations...
denominationalism.
And then also, the other one isEarly Christian Type Small
Groups.
Denominations are common.
Early Christian Type SmallGroups are rare.
Owen (56:57):
Totally.
Shannon (57:00):
All right.
And, thirdly (57:01):
Spiritual growth ...
which means being Spirit-filled...
can also be divided into twoparts.
Having the Fruit of the Spirit.
And having the Gifts of theSpirit.
Again, both of these are raretoday, though.
Owen (57:15):
Absolutely.
And that's what the Gallup pollsprove.
Shannon (57:18):
Wow! Okay.
All right.
And fourthly (57:20):
Today's denominations do not do a good
job of teaching these lessons.
The result is that they're incrisis today, with declining
attendance, and declining socialinfluence.
Owen (57:35):
Tragically, yeah.
Shannon (57:36):
Okay.
All right.
Fifth (57:38):
Because of this lack of teaching, then, today's average
Christian is no more Spiritualthan a non-Christian.
There it is.
There's that poll that you weretalking about.
Owen (57:50):
Yeah.
Double, double tragic.
Shannon (57:53):
Okay.
All right, and then lastly(sixth): Whether or not a person
attends a denomination, theeasiest way to grow Spiritually
is to form a small group, likethe ones that original
Christians had.
And to meet and worship, youknow, the way they did.
Owen (58:11):
That's right.
That's a-- goodness!-- that's awonderful summary, Shannon.
I'm very impressed.
(Chuckles.) And you'reabsolutely right there, on Point
Number...
I believe you called it PointSixth.
And that's something we're goingto talk a great deal about in
future episodes (58:27):
About small groups, and how they function,
and how they should function,whether or not you're a member
of a denomination.
Because like we always say,"Ifwe do what they did, we'll have
what they had."
Shannon (58:46):
Well, I must say Dr.
Owen, I feel like I've knownyou, you know, for a little
while.
Pastor John, back in the day,would call you his"invisible
friend." And now that we've metyou, and you're very involved
with, even within ourcongregation.
I just appreciate everythingthat you've done for us.
But for me personally, this hasbeen a fun episode.
(59:07):
A great way to get to know you alittle bit more.
And I've enjoyed your life'sstory.
I'm sure the listeners have.
And we certainly pray that theHoly Spirit continues to bless
you with miracles all the daysof your remaining life.
Owen (59:22):
Well, God bless you, Shannon.
And that's my prayer for you.
That's my prayer for all of ourfriends out in Podcast Land.
Shannon (59:30):
Yes.
And our friends in Podcast Landdefinitely need to remember that
this is Episode 11 in ourseries, and that we have a new
episode every-other-Tuesday.
And also, even more importantly,you know, than listening, but
grabbing these transcripts andrecordings of our episodes is
important.
Because you can follow along,and you can make notes.
(59:51):
And just...
you know, I'm a visual learner.
And so, not only listening, butalso looking, and following
along.
And they're on the website.
And so, to get these transcriptsand recordings, all you need to
do is simply go on the Internet,and go to: www.goSCpod.com.
(01:00:13):
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
But for now, this is ShannonWolfe...
Owen (01:00:21):
...
and this is Owen Allen, saying: May the God of our fathers bless (01:00:21):
undefined
you, and keep you, and guideyou, and protect you, until we
meet again.
Owen and Shannon (01:00:45):
Owen and Shannon end the episode.
Shannon Wolfe opens the episode by saying:
Hello, friends! This is Episode11 in our bi-weekly series of
the"Saving Christianity"episodes, coming to you
every-other-Tuesday fromChristian Family Online.
(00:23):
I'm Shannon Wolf, the producerof the"Saving Christianity"
podcast, and I'm your host forthis episode.
The title is episode is:"Owen'sStory." Again, that's"Owen's
Story." And in this episode, I'mgoing to interview Dr.
Owen Allen, the co-founder ofthis podcast.
I think we'd all like to have alittle bit more insight into
what God has done in his life inthe past, and what God is doing
(00:44):
today.
We'd also like to know why hewrote the challenging book,
Saving Christianity.
And why he co-founded thispodcast.
So let's welcome Dr.
Owen Allen to our show.
Owen (00:56):
Well, thank you, Shannon! And God bless you, for taking
your time out of your busyschedule to plan this interview.
And God's blessings on all ofour friends who're listening out
there in Podcast Land.
Shannon (01:12):
Well, Dr.
Owen, I've grown to know you alittle bit over the past years
or so.
And I know a little bit aboutyou.
But I think a lot of ourlisteners-- including myself--
are excited to know a little bitmore about your story.
And so, let's just start fromthe beginning.
Where are you from originally?
Owen (01:28):
Well, I'm a rare animal actually.
In fact, I think recently theyput me on the"endangered species
list." I'm an actual Floridian.
And only 36% of the peopleliving in Florida were actually
native to Florida-- born there.
And that percentage is droppingevery year.
(01:49):
My parents had a home, and myfather had a career in
Jacksonville, when I was born.
And so my earliest years werespent there.
Then at about age 10...
I don't know the exact age...
my father made a career changeand moved us to Tampa.
And so I grew up in Tampa,Florida...
(02:11):
lived there'til I graduated highschool and joined the service.
But I led a wonderful life--looking back on it, Shannon-- of
a typical Floridian of thosedays: Boating, spearfishing,
camping, all kinds ofadventures.
And looking back now withperspective of years, I was
richly blessed by God to have awonderful childhood there in
(02:37):
Florida.
Shannon (02:38):
That does sound like a typical boy's life.
So that's great.
What about your your family,your parents?
Tell us a little bit more aboutthem please.
Owen (02:46):
Well, my father was a very creative person, looking back on
it.
He was an engineer and aninventor, and he worked in the
natural gas industry.
So he traveled a lot.
My mother was a homemaker.
I guess you call it that.
I had one sibling, a brother bythe name of James, two years
(03:07):
younger than me.
He like me, grew up to be apastor.
(He lived in) Columbia, SouthCarolina.
He's in heaven now.
And so are my parents.
Shannon (03:16):
"Mom" is definitely more than a homemaker.
That's one of the most importantjobs in the whole world.
(Chuckles.) Well, what aboutschool?
I know how I was in school, andall that.
But what about you?
Were you a good student?
Owen (03:29):
Nah, I wish it could be.
But not at first.
I was probably a"C" student,with a few"As,""Bs," and"Ds"
thrown in.
And there was a reason for thatShannon.
Again looking back, as the oldsaying goes,"You have 20/20
hindsight, and Zero/Zeroforesight." I was too distracted
(03:51):
by outside activities to be agood student.
Looking back on it now, Irealize that from my youngest
days, I had a very strong desirefor travel and adventure.
And I didn't understand that atthe time, of course.
I just thought that was how youlived.
And I was too distracted bythose desires to really excel in
(04:13):
the classroom.
Shannon (04:15):
Got you! So, when you said that you were distracted by
"outside activities"...
did you...
are you talking about, likesports?
What are you talking about withthose activities?
Owen (04:24):
Yes, and no, as far as sports are concerned.
Frankly, I was too distractedwith these other activities for
the intense training and timecommitment that the sport teams
require.
So I didn't-- did not-- playbaseball, basketball, and
football, like most youngpeople.
(04:45):
I did letter in track.
And I was good at track, and didthat because that team required
the least practice and trainingthat I could get on and still
letter.
And like I said, I was good atit.
In fact, in my junior and senioryears of high school, we were
Tampa Bay Champions, and alsoFlorida State Champions.
Shannon (05:10):
Well, that's great.
So, besides track, were thereany other"outside activities"
that you were talking about thatkept you from being a good
student?
Owen (05:18):
Well, again, being adventuresome, I guess, from the
time I could walk...
I don't know when it started.
But as very small child, Iremember walking in the woods
with my"Red Ryder" Daisy BB gun.
I remember camping in thebackyard.
Of course I joined Scouts.
The big news is when I was...
(05:39):
I don't know, 12 or 13, maybe...
my best friend, Don Davis, and Ibegan spearfishing and
snorkeling under Gandy bridge inTampa Bay.
And looking back on it, I don'tknow why my parents(chuckles)
allowed this.
But we'd get on our bicyclesbefore sunrise, and ride out to
the marina.
(05:59):
And we'd rent a row boat.
Of course we didn't have anoutboard motor.
But we'd rent a rowboat.
We'd row out to Gandy bridge,and tie up under it.
And we'd stay there all day,spearfishing and snorkeling.
We even had lunch, and a littlerest break in the boat.
And then we'd stay out tosunset.
(06:19):
Then we'd ride-- row-- back tothe Marina.
Get back on our bikes, and ridehome.
So it was a wonderful,incredible life.
I still tell stories about itthat people don't believe.
But we had adventures withsharks, and dolphins, and manta
rays, and every kind of fish andmarine life.
And you know, Shannon, sincethose days, I've loved boats and
(06:43):
the sea ever since.
And there's something elsefunny, I'll just throw in here.
That was the time period when Ialso started my first company, I
call it.
It was a lawn maintenance deal,work, and operation.
And I had an agreement withneighbors, three, four neighbors
-- I believe there were four--to maintain their lawns for
(07:07):
them.
And I did that every month.
I would mow and trim theirlawns.
So I always had pocket money forScouts, and spearfishing,
camping, boats, movies, anythingI wanted to do.
And looking back on it, I guessI was active and independent.
Maybe too much so.
And then the final nail in thecoffin: When I was about 15, my
(07:31):
parents moved to a small ranchoutside of Tampa, on a place
called Valrico Lake.
And of course t hat added horseshows and rodeos and all kinds
of adventures to my many, manydistractions.
Shannon (07:46):
So, I understand that you were a big reader, as well
as challenged.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Owen (07:48):
Well, I don't understand that myself, frankly.
Reading is something I've doneas long as I can remember.
And frankly, I believe it's atalent that God gave me.
I remember-- this is funny,Shannon-- at a very young age,
when my parents would go on cartrips.
(08:08):
I'd sit in the back seat andlook out the window, and I would
read the billboards to them aswe went along.
And I remember my parentsglancing at each other and, you
know, looking surprised, when Iwould read some of those
billboards.
And looking back on it, that'sprobably the only thing that
kept me from failing out ofschool(chuckles)-- was my habit,
(08:32):
or talent, for reading.
Here's one last quick story.
I'll never forget that there wasa branch of the Tampa public
library only one block from myschool.
So after school-- check this out-- instead of riding the school
bus home with the otherchildren, I'd walk down to this
library and read all afternoon,until dinner time.
(08:54):
Then I'd catch the city bus andtake that home for dinner.
And you know, I never readfiction.
I still don't like fiction.
I only read nonfiction.
Mostly history.
And I loved...
and to this day I love...
exciting biographies ofexplorers, and soldiers, and
other adventuresome people.
Shannon (09:16):
I love that.
Just movies that I've seen, youknow, as a kid.
And just thinking about a boy'slife.
This really and truly soundslike something that was a really
good"boy adventure." And so itwas just wholesome, and who
would think today that you couldwalk away from your school, and
walk to somewhere else, and thenride the city buses-- and all
(09:36):
that as a child! I mean, that'sjust...
but again...
that's just what makes yourchildhood unique to you.
But also unusual.
And so...
but let's shift gears here, andget a little closer to the theme
of this episode, and let's talkabout your Spiritual life.
Were you raised in a Christianhome?
Owen (09:55):
Hmm.
Well, the answer to that is,"Yes." And again, that's another
incredible blessing that Ididn't appreciate at the time.
My parents were Christians.
And so, I've been a member ofInstitutional Christianity since
what they call"The Cradle Roll."And I'm still a member today.
But our family, when growing up,we had devotions and Bible
(10:18):
readings at meals.
We had bedtime prayers at night.
My parents were active.
They sang in the choir.
They served on committees.
I remember as a small childhelping my mother carry baskets
to needy people, and ringingtheir doorbell, and giving them
baskets of food and stuff.
(10:39):
And those are very earlymemories.
My brother and I attendedmorning services, evening
services, Sunday school, youthgroup, youth choir, summer camp.
And oddly enough, Shannon...
as I mentioned earlier...
we both became pastors later inlife.
Shannon (10:56):
And that, to me, sounds like a typical family.
It sounds like, you know, whatwe think of as"I go to church."
This is probably the-- quote--one billion or so that claim
that they're"Christians," kindof thing.
But it stops at, for somepeople, it stops at attending
(11:16):
morning services.
Attending evening services.
Sunday school.
Youth group.
Youth choir, et cetera, etcetera.
But-- what we really want toknow now is when were you
"saved"?
In other words, when did you"give your life to Christ"?
Owen (11:31):
Hallelujah.
Well, you know, this issomething I've thought about a
lot, Shannon.
Like many Christians, I don'tremember the exact day that I
was"saved." I know somedenominations demand that.
But I was very young.
I don't remember the day.
But I do remember exactly how ithappened.
(11:51):
I was about 11 at the time.
And we were members of one ofthese denominations that was
very formal, and had a veryrigid program.
And part of this program, eachand every Lord's Day, was that
the entire congregation stood uptogether in unison, and recited
"The Apostle's Creed." This isevery single Lord's Day.
(12:16):
The whole congregation-- men,women, and children of all ages
-- stood up and recited thosebeautiful words:"I believe in
God the Father Almighty, makerof heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His onlySon, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the HolyGhost.
Born of the Virgin Mary.
(12:37):
Suffered under Pontius Pilate..." You know, Shannon, I could
quote those 110 words instantlyin my sleep to this day.
So...
this one particular Lord's Day,we're all standing reciting
these words.
And a very strange, clearthought popped in my head.
(12:58):
And that thought was:"I reallydo believe this! I really
believe this!" And I rememberfeeling surprised at the
thought, and having a tinglingsensation.
And I realized that I really didbelieve"The Apostle's Creed."
Every word of the 110 words.
(13:21):
And I believe it today.
And so I did believe JesusChrist was God, and was
conceived by the Holy ghost, andwas born of the Virgin Mary, and
all the rest of it.
And so, I think that was theday, Shannon, that the Holy
Spirit indwelled me, andbaptized my inner spirit in
(13:42):
supernatural power.
And that's what we call"gettingsaved." Or"accepting Christ." Or
being"born again." Of course, Ididn't know...
and here's the problem...
I didn't know that being"saved"only made me an infant
Christian.
Nobody told me that.
And so, like millions of otherChristians-- you mentioned
(14:05):
"billions" of us earlier.
I assumed that there was nothingelse to be done.
That's all I needed to do.
And I didn't find out, Shannon,'til many years later, that I
also needed to grow, and becomea mature Christian.
Shannon (14:23):
Well, earlier you mentioned a title.
And I don't think it's like theRotary Club, or the Lion's Club,
or the Moose Lodge, or whatever.
I don't think it's actually aphysical organization.
But you mentioned that you werea member of the"Institutional
Christianity" since you wereborn.
(14:44):
And so, that's a curious word,or couple of words, there:
"Institutional Christianity."Tell us a little bit more about
what you mean by that.
Owen (14:55):
Well, that's a great question, Shannon, frankly.
And I'm sure that it took memany, many decades of life to
figure that out myself.
But, if you think about it, asan organizational group-- or a
group of a couple of billionpeople-- Christianity can be
divided into two very broadcategories, or groups.
(15:18):
The first category is what wecall"small groups," that meet
informally in homes.
And they let the Holy spiritguide their worship.
And that's what the originalChristians had.
That's all they had in the earlycenturies.
Now today, there are still thosegroups.
They still exist.
(15:39):
But they're very rare.
Now, the second category islarge groups that meet formally
in large buildings, and have arigid program that guides their
worship.
Frankly, that's the...
what we call today...
the"Denominations." That wouldbe the Baptists, Methodists,
(15:59):
Lutherans, Catholics, and allthe others.
And they are what we usuallyrefer to as"Institutional
Christianity." They're formally,many times in most cases,
they're legal corporations.
And they have, you know,bookkeepers and all the things
that go with it.
(16:19):
And they are formally aninstitution.
And that's what I've been amember of since"The Cradle
Roll." Frankly, I never saw myfirst Early Christian Type Small
Group until I was in mythirties.
Shannon (16:34):
Well, like most, since you've been a member of the--
quote-- Chris...
excuse me,"InstitutionalChristianity" your whole life.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Has your membership been a happyone?
Owen (16:48):
"Has it been a happy one?" Well, how do I answer that,
Shannon?
Like most Christians, I wastaught to attend the
Denominations by my parents.
So I didn't know, and theydidn't know, and nobody else
knew, that there was anythingelse that we could do.
But,"No." To be deathbed honest,as I say,"No." Attending the
(17:11):
denominations hasn't always beenhappy.
And in fact, some of my most...
the most...
painful experiences in my lifehave happened as being member of
some of the Denominations.
Shannon (17:27):
Well, and having been an administrator since I was in
my early 20s, it is hard to hearthat people do have painful
experiences often accompaniedwith denominationalism, or with
the"church," just in general.
So what do you mean by whenyou're saying"painful
experiences"?
Give us a little bit moreinsight into that please.
Owen (17:50):
Well, let's see.
Let's back up one step.
I said that after I was"saved"in Tampa as a child, I was an
infant Christian until my 30s.
And that meant that thesupernatural power of the Holy
spirit laid dormant in me allthose years.
And I did know that of course.
And that He had very littleinfluence over my early
(18:14):
behavior.
We've talked so much aboutbehavior in these episodes.
And this is one of the reasonswhy my behavior-- as we said in
the previous episode, I didn'tknow it at the time-- was
totally selfish all these, allthose, early years.
And the Holy Spirit'ssupernatural power had very
(18:37):
little influence over me.
Shannon (18:40):
Gotcha.
So, really, truly, no one taughtyou how to grow Spiritually?
No one taught you how to let theHoly Spirit guide your daily
life?
Owen (18:51):
Well, that's right.
And you know what?
That lack of guidance by theHoly Spirit was the root of all
the trouble in my life.
And I had my share of baddecisions and troubles in the
service, and college, and otherplaces.
And as we've said (19:07):
That's also the root of all the trouble in
today's Christianity.
We've talked about that,Shannon, in earlier episodes:
That Institutional Christianitytoday...
just recently, there was aGallup-- a new Gallup poll came
(19:28):
out on that this week.
But Christian attendance isdeclining.
And also, the Christianinfluence in our culture is
declining.
Shannon (19:39):
Got you! So can you give us an example then of a
time when you were growing upwhen you were not taught the
importance of being guided bythe Holy Spirit?
Owen (19:48):
Oh, my goodness.
(Chuckles.) What a question!Well-- I mean-- my whole life
until my 30s would answer that.
But let me think a second.
I could give you many, probably,from my childhood.
Some of them humorous.
I don't know.
But here's one that pops in myhead.
When I was...
my brother and I, I mentionedearlier, always went to summer
(20:11):
camp.
This was a denominationalChristian camp.
And I remember one year, Ibelieve I was 14 that summer.
One of the things that we didwas when camp was over, I've
forgotten now how many weeksthat was-- but several weeks.
And when camp was over, wealways had a graduation night.
And we had a banquet.
(20:32):
And we had a service.
And all the parents and thepastors of the different
congregations represented by thechildren, came to the camp that
night to see the service andhave the banquet.
And then the next morning, wepacked our cars and went home.
So one of the things that we didis this...
(20:53):
you're not going to believethis, but it's true...
at that graduation service andthat banquet, each of our dorms
-- we lived in dorms-- had topresent a skit, a little play.
And these skits had to beapproved by the camp counselors.
And they were supposed topresent a Christian theme.
(21:17):
So check this out.
That year, when I was 14, ourdorm did our skit for the
parents that night.
And we did a"Frankenstein" skit(laughter), a"Frankenstein"
skit.
One of the boys built up someplatform shoes, and he dressed
(21:37):
up like Frankenstein.
And the rest of us dressed uplike the ragged villagers.
And in the skit, we pretended tofight Frankenstein with these
long sticks that we'd gonethrough the woods and picked up.
And here's the beautiful thing.
We got a standing ovation fromthe counselors, the parents, and
(21:58):
the pastors, when our skit wasover.
But here's the point (22:02):
All of the dorms that night presented skits
based on book and movie themeslike we did.
And nobody told us-- nobody toldus-- maybe because apparently it
didn't occur to the counselors,and the parents, and the pastors
(22:24):
in the audience, that our skitswere not Spiritual.
They weren't even Christianskits.
Nobody at the camp seemed torealize that our skits did not
have a Christian message, andhad nothing to do with teaching
us children how to growSpiritually.
Shannon (22:47):
Well, that's definitely interesting.
I definitely can see the pictureof what you're trying to say a
little more clearly now.
So, you're not against-- quote--"Institutional Christianity" as
such.
You just feel that it doesn'tteach its members how to have
Spiritual behavior.
Owen (23:04):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
I love the"InstitutionalChristianity." Always have,
always will.
I'm active in it today.
I love the people in it.
But let's face it.
You've got to...
you know, it's...
Shannon, in this podcast, we'retrying to be absolutely what I
(23:26):
call"deathbed honest." We'retrying to be practical.
We're trying to be logical.
We're trying to look at thingswith"our feet on the ground."
And remember, we've said so manytimes in these episodes: The
Gallup polls show that today'saverage Christian is no more
Spiritual than a non-Christian.
(23:50):
Think about that a second.
That's devastating.
And that's why I wrote the book,Saving Christianity.
And that's why John and I haveco-founded this podcast.
And we want people to have abook to read, and episodes to
listen to, that will teach themhow to be-- how to have--
(24:12):
Spiritual behavior.
Let me add this real quick,Shannon.
Somebody asked me this about aweek ago.
And here's how I answered them.
I said, look, what if I was aQuality Control Manager at a
John Deere factory buildingtractors.
(24:33):
And what if those tractorsstarted coming off the assembly
line with one wheel missing.
Now, I'm the Quality Manager.
Would I be critical?
Would I be doing something ugly?
If I went to the foreman of thatassembly line and said,"Pardon
me.
But do you know that tractorsare coming off with one wheel
(24:56):
missing?
And we ought to do something!"That's silly...
but that's what Quality Controlpeople do! And they're not
criticized.
And nobody's mad at them.
Because they're supposed tocontrol the quality in a
process, and highlight anydeviations from that quality.
(25:17):
And that's sort of how I feelabout Institutional
Christianity.
I just see when a wheel comesoff, and I feel like I should
tell somebody,
Shannon (25:27):
Well, there's definitely no use in having a
tractor with only three wheels!(Chuckles.) And that's
definitely something that you'vegot to say something about that.
Or you're going to shut down theplant.
Because you're making a bunch ofjunk.
And so, but you said something,Dr.
Owen, that I think is very muchworth repeating again.
And it hurts to hear it.
But it also...
(25:48):
you want to take aself-evaluation when you hear
this kind information, and go,"Okay, where am I at?" This is a
self-check for me.
Just even as you know, as apastor myself.
I still...
we need to be taking self-checksall the time.
And so, you give a poll aboutChristians.
(26:10):
And it hurts on one hand.
But on the other hand, it causesus to go, like you're saying,
with this Quality Control, andnot produce tractors with three
wheels.
But also, not to produce,Institutional Christians.
What did you say that poll wasagain?
Owen (26:28):
Well, there have been a lot of these polls, Shannon.
And I love the Gallup pollsbecause I knew Gallup
personally.
And in fact, I had dinner withhim one night in Washington many
years ago.
George Gallop, Jr.
He's deceased now.
He's in heaven.
He was a Christian.
And we talked over dinner aboutwhat these Gallup poll show.
And here's what they show (26:53):
That today's average Christian is no
more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
And that's why-- to tie back asecond-- that's why the
counselors, and parents, andpastors, at summer camp that
year thought"Frankenstein" was aChristian skit.
Shannon (27:16):
Hmm.
Interesting.
I want to know, is this...
was this skit in black and whiteback then?
Or was it in color?
(Laughter.) I shouldn't havesaid that! Picking on your age!
Sorry.
Owen (27:26):
It was in total color.
No, I believe it was really*black*.
I think the"black dog"performed!(A reference to
natural human selfishnessperforming.)
Shannon (27:33):
All right.
Well, let's talk a little bitmore about your book.
Actually, before we do thatthough, let's go back to how you
grew up.
And you were telling us a littlebit about your high school
years.
What happened after high school?
Owen (27:48):
Well, I did graduate, and I went directly into the
military.
Young people today don'trealize, I guess, Shannon, that
America had the draft in thosedays.
And every boy had to go, whetheror not he wanted to.
But I was anxious to go becauseof my very strong need for
travel and adventure.
(28:08):
And so, I joined the Marinesright after high school
graduation, and left for activeduty.
And while I was on active dutythough...
sort of a tragedy, I guess in mylife.
It still hurts a little.
But while I was on active duty,my father had another career
change.
And he moved the family to SouthCarolina.
(28:29):
So, when I got out of theMarines, off active duty.
I had to go there to join myfamily.
And South Carolina became myhome then for several years.
And I never returned to Floridaexcept for vacations.
Shannon (28:45):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
So, when you were in SouthCarolina, where did you work at?
What did you do when you werethere?
Owen (28:52):
Well,(chuckles) I found out that-- real quick-- that I
didn't have any civilian skills.
We need to remember that I justwas a high school graduate at
that time.
And then had been in theMarines.
And so I found out there were nojobs there for ex-Marine tank
commanders.
(Chuckles.) So I tried severalunsuitable jobs for a few
(29:15):
months.
I remember I worked in a printshop, and different things.
And then one day my fathercalled me in.
And he said that what I reallyneeded to do, to shape up my
life, was to enroll in college.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout that, oddly enough.
You talk about"clueless." Ididn't know anything growing up.
So, except to have fun.
(29:38):
So I did.
I enrolled in college in SouthCarolina.
And that was a big turning pointin my life.
Really the first one.
Shannon (29:48):
Gotcha! So what did college have to do with giving
you a big turning point in yourlife?
Owen (29:52):
Well, you have to remember, now, what we've talked
about.
The only civilian job experiencethat I had at the time was my
teenage years on the ranch onValrico Lake, Florida.
And so this sounds strangetoday.
I can't even believe I'm sayingit.
But when I arrived on thecampus, you had to pick a major.
(30:15):
And I enrolled in college withan agricultural major, thinking
that maybe someday I might own aranch or something.
And that was when God stepped inwith the first really big
supernatural miracle of my life.
Shannon (30:31):
Your first big miracle was in college?
Owen (30:34):
Tell me about it.
It was.
And you know, it happened,Shannon, in my third semester.
I was sitting in my dorm oneday, minding my own business,
and the phone rang.
And a voice told me to report tothe office of Professor Patricia
K.
Hill, was her name.
I still remember her.
An Elderly lady.
(30:57):
And she was my Englishprofessor.
Well, naturally, I thought I wasin trouble-- that I had failed a
paper, or something.
So I jumped up and went to heroffice.
And when I got there, she sat medown and talked to me like what
they used to call"a Dutchuncle." She really laid it on
the line.
(31:17):
And she told me that I waswasting my time being in
agriculture.
She said that I had more writingtalent than any of our other
students.
And she said that I needed tochange my major immediately from
agriculture to English.
(Chuckles.) Can you imagine!Well, here I'm sitting here like
(31:39):
a dumb bunny, wearing cowboyboots and everything.
And I'd never thought about acareer in writing.
I had no idea that I had writingtalent.
And the strangest part, though,about this entire thing, is that
I was completely calm andpeaceful as Professor Hill told
(32:02):
me these things.
And I've thought about that,Shannon.
Remember, I was still an infantChristian during these years.
And so I didn't understand thatthe reason that I felt so calm
and peaceful was that the HolySpirit was guiding me in this
massive change in my life.
Shannon (32:24):
Well, what happened?
Did you actually change majors?
Owen (32:26):
Well, I did.
But here's the funny part.
I didn't question professorHill.
I didn't phone my parents.
I didn't even contact my classadvisor on the campus.
Instead, I stood up, I leftprofessor Hill's office, I
walked straight to theregistrar's office, changed my
(32:47):
major from agriculture toEnglish-- and in less than an
hour-- the Holy Spirit had givenme a completely new life.
Shannon (32:57):
Interesting.
So, exactly what was this newlife that He gave you?
Owen (33:02):
Well, there were two more semesters.
The next two semesters for me,there on the campus, a whole new
world opened that I didn't evenknow existed.
I was appointed a tutor for theEnglish department.
I was appointed a writer for thecampus magazine.
I was elected president of thecampus writer's club.
(33:24):
And this is funny.
I even began to socialize withthe English professors on the
campus, instead of with theother students.
And I would go to their homesand have dinner with them, and
all that sort of stuff.
And so, I set new goals for mywhole life: First to become a
college professor.
And second to become a best-selling author.
Shannon (33:47):
Well, have you reached those goals yet?
Owen (33:49):
I did reach them.
But sweetheart, it was manyyears later.
(Laughter.) Because due tofamily and financial problems, I
had to drop out of college in myjunior year and enter the world
of business.
But here's what's interesting.
I guess I became what they calla"professional student" then.
(34:12):
Because for years and yearsafter that, while I was fairly
successful in business, Icontinued to take a night school
and online courses.
And you know what, Shannon?
Eventually that way I earnedthree undergraduate degrees, and
two graduate degrees, includingmy doctorate in organizational
(34:36):
behavior.
And I even had advanced studiesat Oxford in England.
Shannon (34:41):
Well, that's very interesting.
It's a far cry from agriculture,that's for sure.
(Chuckles.) And my wife, shewould say she was the same
thing.
She would...
if she could be just a"professional student," she
would go to school all the time.
And so that really, truly is anincredible story.
Dr.
Owen, thank you so much.
Let's look a little bit back nowat Spiritual growth for a
(35:02):
minute.
You said that you were still aninfant several times during
these years.
When did you actually start togrow Spiritually?
Owen (35:12):
Well, that's another incredible miraculous story,
actually.
You know...
sometimes...
I'll say this to the side here,Shannon.
I've often said in my life thatone way that I know when God is
doing something in my life--when I know that something is
(35:32):
God's will in my life-- is whenit's the last thing I would ever
have thought about.
Think about that a second.
You know, God's rightintelligent.
And I'm certainly not.
And so, just like the storyabout Professor Hill.
The next big turning point in mylife was when the Holy Spirit
(35:55):
moved a second time.
Overnight, virtually-- just likein Dr.
Hill's office-- He gave me acompletely new life.
The sad thing is I was 33 at thetime.
I had wasted all of those years.
And this happened in a New Yorkcity hotel room.
Shannon (36:13):
Uh, you started Spiritual growth in hotel room
(laughter) in New York city,okay?
Owen (36:18):
That would scare anybody! But you know, the truth is,
Shannon, that I lived in St.
Louis at the time.
I had long since left SouthCarolina, and was comfortable in
St.
Louis.
And I was the co-founder andexecutive vice president of a
computer company at the time.
(36:38):
It was a wonderful company.
In fact, believe this or not, weowned the copyright to the words
"Data Base," if you can imaginethat in those days.
And...
but the company was in financialtrouble.
And I won't go into all thereasons why.
But the reason I was in New Yorkthat day was to raise money to
(36:58):
save the company.
And my efforts failed.
And I had come out of a verydisastrous conference with a
bunch of stock brokers andinvestors.
And they had refused to help.
And so, walking back to myhotel, I realized for the first
time that the company was goingto fail-- was going to close--
(37:22):
and I was probably going to loseeverything.
So I went back to my room, andthis was very unlike me then,
obviously-- I hadn't doneanything like this since
childhood-- but I knelt andprayed in that room for help...
prayed to God for help.
And for the first time in mylife, I experienced what
(37:45):
Christians call Spirit-filling.
This was my first Spirit-fillingand, you know, my crisis was
dramatic at that time.
And so the experience with theHoly spirit was dramatic, too.
And my whole room f illed with ablue mist...
and I felt like I was far away.
(38:07):
Like I was in the bottom of awell.
Shannon (38:10):
Well, that's very interesting! So what happened
next?
Owen (38:13):
Well, I don't know...
uh...
looking back on it now.
I do a lot of looking back, asyou can tell.
(Chuckles.) It was a visionexperience.
But it was like I was talking toGod in the room, Shannon.
And He revealed everything thatwas going to happen to me, and
(38:33):
what the outcome of it all wasgoing to be.
And it was one of the mostSpiritual experiences of my
life.
It hasn't(chuckles) beensurpassed but a couple of times
since then.
In fact, it changed me socompletely that when I got home,
friends on the street didn'trecognize me.
Shannon (38:55):
Huh.
So, the company...
did the company fail?
Owen (38:59):
Yeah, it totally failed.
It did close.
I did lose everything.
And so, there at the age of 33,I started over from scratch,
exactly as the Holy Spirit said.
But here's the Good News again.
Just like in Professor Hill'soffice, I was completely calm
(39:21):
and peaceful.
Never had any stress.
And overnight, virtually, theHoly Spirit gave me a whole new
life.
He moved me to North Carolina,where we still are today.
He guided me in starting a newcompany-- if you can imagine
that-- just weeks after the oldcompany had failed.
(39:42):
And I operated that new companyinternationally for the next 45
years.
But here's the funny part...
and I didn't expect this either...
He also started me in ministry.
And all this within just a fewmonths.
And I want our friends who arelistening to this to know that
(40:04):
that's the power of Spiritualgrowth.
The Holy Spirit can completelychange our lives virtually
overnight.
Shannon (40:13):
Wow! So, just to kind of slow down a little bit.
Let's clear up a point that youjust said.
You said the Holy Spirit startedyou in the-- quote--"ministry"
then.
However, you had no religiouseducation.
How is that possible?
Owen (40:29):
Well, that's true.
That is funny, isn't it?
Talk about a miraculous God--which, I might point out, He is!
Yeah, I had read a lot, and hada lot of education.
But I didn't have one day of...
I guess we'd call it religioustraining.
But so, that was part of themiraculous new life that the
(40:49):
Holy Spirit gave me when Hemoved me to North Carolina.
And we've got to remember thatthe Bible says,"*Nothing* is
impossible with God." I believethe Bible in Luke says that four
or five times.
I think there are 50 differentverses that indicate that.
And I was thinking the otherday, that was a song, wasn't it?
(41:12):
"Nothing is impossible, when youput your trust in God." Glory,
hallelujah.
So that's what I did.
And when I got, obviously, toNorth Carolina, I joined the
institution, as we've beentalking.
I joined a Christiancongregation near my home there,
and-- check this out now-- soon,without my knowledge or even
(41:36):
guessing it, a group of theteenagers in the congregation
sent a delegation...
went to the pastor.
And asked the pastor and theelders for me to be hired as
their Youth Pastor.
And so, when I was called in andpresented with this...
and I don't know why I did it,but I did.
(41:58):
(Chuckles.) I accepted theposition.
Well-- I know why I did it! It was Holy Spirit! I accepted the
position.
And that was my gateway intoChristian service.
I entered the ministry throughthe back door, if you want to
call it that, of the YouthMinistry.
Because in that denomination,that required less rigorous
(42:22):
religious education.
Shannon (42:24):
Okay.
Well, that makes sense.
I understand.
And I also understand that'swhen you were exposed to Early
Christian Type Small Groups forthe first time.
Is that right?
Owen (42:35):
Well, there you go again.
It's just absolutely amazing.
I mean, I'm surprised in myselffor giving these answers,
Shannon, the way God wove all ofthis together in a beautiful,
beautiful picture.
But yeah, a Spiritual awakeningwas going on in that part of
(42:55):
North Carolina at the time.
I guess(it was) what weChristians call a"Revival." And
people were meeting in smallgroups in their homes to pray
about this revival.
And I didn't know any of this atthe time, but the Holy spirit
was moving in new and differentways in the small groups.
And there were healings, andmiracles of all kinds happening
(43:19):
in people's homes in these smallgroups.
Well of course, I was in theYouth Ministry.
And the young people startedtalking about all this stuff.
So I began to visit some ofthese groups with them-- where
the young people were going.
And this is where I first heardthe term"Spirit-filled." And
(43:40):
this was when I realized for thefirst time...
because remember, I didn't haveany religious training...
this was where I realized forthe first time that my early--
earlier-- experience in that NewYork hotel room had been my
first Spirit-filling.
Well, eventually...
(44:00):
it's a long, long story...
but eventually, I formed a FirstCentury Style Small Group in my
own home.
And those years were some of mygreatest Spiritual growth, and
the most incredible Spiritualmiracles.
Shannon (44:15):
So is this also when you discovered the-- quote--
"Early Christian Lifestyle" aswell?
Owen (44:21):
Yeah.
That all happened during thisvery same period.
I had met a man, in one of thesemeetings, who was a retired
military officer.
And he's a very rare person.
He's in heaven now.
But he had studied the EarlyChristian Lifestyle for years.
And so he invited me to come tohis home over a period of weeks.
(44:45):
And I sat with him on his patio.
I don't know why, but that'swhere we sat.
He had some nice patiofurniture.
And he walked me through theBible.
And he showed me how the EarlyChristians had originally lived
and worshiped.
Of course, I'd never heard anyof this before(chuckles), even
(45:06):
though I had been a Christiansince childhood.
He explained to me what hadhappened to me in that New York
hotel room.
And he explained what washappening in the Youth Ministry.
And he explained what washappening in my small group.
And he was first person to evertell me that I could have the
(45:31):
Fruit of the Spirit, and theGifts of the Spirit, in my daily
life.
And that's what I'm calling the"Early Christian Lifestyle." So
this man, again, I met him--quotes--"by coincidence." You
know the old saying,"If God hadmade His name'coincidence,'
there wouldn't be any Atheists."So, this man entered my life in
(45:56):
one of these small groups.
And it was another tremendousturning point in my life.
You can see, I've(chuckles) hada lot of"turning points" in my
life from the Holy Spirit.
Shannon (46:07):
And that's all great! And I love that part of your
story.
So now you've written a book,and you've started a podcast,
and you're teaching others howto live the"Early Christian
Lifestyle"?
Owen (46:21):
That's the plan! John Shields and I thought it was
about time for somebody,somewhere, to step up to the
plate, and tell people whyChristianity is in crisis today,
and what we can do about it.
Shannon (46:38):
So you're mentioning a "crisis"...
Christianity in a"crisis."Actually, several times I've
heard this throughout thesepodcasts and recordings.
And so, just clear that up alittle bit more for us, please.
What does that mean?
Owen (46:53):
Well...
think about it.
As we said, InstitutionalChristianity, the modern
Denominations, is what mostChristians attend-- or did
attend-- or once attended.
But we know from what we've saidabout the Gallup polls, that the
institution, the denominations,are struggling these days.
(47:16):
Attendance is declining.
We've mentioned earlier in anepisode that in recent years
only 16 percent of the Americanpopulation regularly attended
the denominations.
And now, of course, the mostrecent polls are showing that
because of the Covid-19 pandemicof the year 2020, attendance is
(47:41):
even less.
Dropping like a brick.
And so, worse than that ofcourse, Christianity has almost
completely lost its influence onculture.
How do we know that?
Look around.
Look at the high levels ofcrime, divorce, drug abuse,
(48:02):
child abuse, all the negativebehavior in society.
And think about this.
If Institutional Christianitywas more effective teaching
Spiritual growth, can't we agreethat all that negative behavior
-- those levels of negativebehavior-- would probably not be
(48:25):
that high?
Shannon (48:26):
I think we definitely could, especially looking back.
So your book, this podcast withPastor John Shields, they say
that Christianity is definitelydeclining because of the-- quote
--"Institutional Denominations,"they're not teaching their
members how to live the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
(48:47):
Is that right?
Owen (48:48):
Yep.
That's what the book and thepodcast say.
Shannon (48:52):
So, really, what you're saying is that one of the
biggest lessons that you learnedis that living the-- quote--
"Early Christian Lifestyle" isthe answer to all of our
problems in life?
Is that right?
Owen (49:04):
That's right.
I mean, look at the stories thatI've told here just very
briefly.
The major turning points in mylife, many of which were very
troubling-- like my companyfailing in St.
Louis.
And yet, I went through all ofthose troubles with complete
peace, and complete comfort.
And the Holy Spirit turned eachcorner...
(49:27):
turned each page in the story ofmy life, so to speak...
painlessly.
And so that's why the motto thatJohn and I use in the book and
the podcast is this:"If we dowhat they did, we'll have what
they had." And we're speaking ofthe Early Christians.
Shannon (49:51):
I love that.
I love that.
What exactly does that mottomean then?
Owen (49:55):
Well(sighs)...
the"Early Christian Lifestyle,"we just mean by that: How the
original Christians lived in theearly centuries.
And their behavior, if you readthe written record-- both in the
Bible and outside of the Bible--their daily behavior was
motivated by the Holy Spirit.
(50:18):
Their motivator was the HolySpirit.
Not their"flesh." Think aboutthis.
And so they had the Fruit of theSpirit, and the Gifts of the
Spirit, in their daily behaviorat home and at work.
Shannon (50:34):
Okay.
So most of us have heard of theFruit of the Spirit, and the
Gifts of the Spirit.
Explain them a little bit moreto us.
And the application of those, asyou were just saying-- the daily
behavior that motivated theEarly Christians.
How can we implement thosetoday?
Owen (50:51):
Well, it's a funny thing, you know.
A lot of people talk about beingSpiritual, and Spiritual growth,
and rant rave.
And being Spirit-filled.
And you say,"Okay, define thatfor me.
What is that in practical,everyday terms?" And they look
blank.
So, what we're saying is thatthe Fruit of the Spirit, and the
(51:11):
Gifts of the spirit, is whatdefines Spirituality for
Christians.
That is Spiritual growth.
That is, having more of that isSpiritual growth.
And the process of doing that isbeing Spirit-filled-- what
happened to me in my New Yorkhotel room so strongly that
people didn't recognize me whenI got home.
That's what we're talking about: The Gifts of the Spirit, and the (51:32):
undefined
Fruit of the Spirit.
Shannon (51:39):
Okay.
So then, what you're saying is: If a person is Spirit-filled, (51:39):
undefined
then he or she has the Fruit ofthe Spirit, and the Gifts of the
Spirit.
And that's what you're callingliving the Early Christian
Lifestyle.
Is that right?
Owen (51:54):
Exactly, exactly.
And here's the big thing,Shannon.
Remember that the Gifts, and theFruit, are supernatural.
What happened to me in that NewYork hotel room, and in
Professor Hill's office, andthese other times that we've
discussed, was supernatural.
What I mean by that (52:14):
Those experiences did not come from my
human mind.
They came from the Holy Spirit.
And that's a big difference.
Shannon (52:26):
I love that.
You've pinpointed places in yourlife where you've seen the Lord
turn corners with you.
Our pastor, Pastor John, wouldsay you're driving a stake in
the ground.
I love that.
You've done that.
And so with that, then can youexplain the Fruit of the Spirit
and the Gifts of the Spirit alittle more clearly for us?
Owen (52:45):
Yeah.
Let's keep it very simple.
The Fruit of the Spirit is*behavior.
It's supernatural*behavior oflove, and joy, and peace, and
patience, and kindness, andgentleness, and hope, and all
those wonderful things that theBible lists.
There are about 20 of them.
And they come only from the HolySpirit.
(53:07):
And then the Gifts of theSpirit, of course, are
*abilities.
They're supernatural*abilities--abilities that humans don't have
"naturally," to make a pun(chuckles).
These are things like Spiritualdreams, and visions, and
prophecies, and healings, andwisdom, and all of these
wonderful things.
(53:28):
Again, there are about 20 ofthose supernatural abilities.
And they only come from the HolySpirit.
Shannon (53:35):
Okay.
So for me, in my mind.
You're saying that the Fruit ofthe Spirit are the kind of
things that we*do, when you saysupernatural*behavior.
And then, Gifts of the Spiritare something that we couldn't
otherwise do without the help ofthe Holy...
well, both of them, we have tohave the Holy Spirit to help us.
But more supernatural, in thatrealm of the Gifts of the
(53:57):
Spirit, are things that we get--we step back and go,"Wow! That
only comes from God!" For bothof those.
And so, the book and the podcastare teaching us how to have the
Fruit of the Spirit, and theGifts of the Spirit, in our
daily lives and behaviors.
Owen (54:14):
Exactly right.
Shannon (54:17):
Okay.
Well, Dr.
Owen, you have had quite a life.
So let's back up one last time.
This episode is supposed to beabout what God is doing in your
life.
And that would include yourfamily.
So tell us a little bit moreabout your family before we end,
please.
Owen (54:34):
Yeah, that's...
I'm glad you mentioned that,Shannon.
Yeah, you remember back in ourvery first episode, when we were
interviewed by TV personality,Manwell Grady.
I talked about my family.
And so I'll just repeat just alittle bit of that in the
interest of time.
(54:55):
I'm married to the love of mylife.
Her name is Joanna.
We've been together now foralmost 40 years.
Between us, we have fourchildren, 12 grandchildren, and
nine great-grandchildren.
So that's a heap.
And I know that our full storywould have to be for another
day.
But I do want to say thatmeeting her-- check this out--
(55:20):
was another one of those greatbig turning points in my life
that the Holy spirit changed,literally within 24-hours, my
complete life.
He put us together through anamazing sequence of supernatural
events that'd make a movie.
She was in Switzerland.
And I was in Central America.
(55:41):
And-- just-- it's a tremendousstory, that we can't get into
today.
But I would put it this way,Shannon.
When we say, Joanna and I, thatwe"have a marriage made in
heaven." We mean it.
(Chuckles.) Because our marriagereally was made in heaven.
Shannon (56:02):
That sounds great.
I...
maybe one day we can can tellthat story in a future episode.
Or maybe one day we'll make amovie, or something out of it.
(Laughter.) But for now, as wedefinitely come to the end of
this episode, I've got a fewnotes here.
So I'd like to summarize alittle bit about what I'm
feeling like that God has taughtyou over your lifetime.
Is that okay?
Owen (56:21):
Well, that ought to be interesting.
Her rip, pal.
Shannon (56:24):
(Laughter.) Okay, well here's what we have.
First (56:25):
Being a Christian can be divided into two parts.
That's being saved.
And being Spirit-filled.
Being saved is common.
Being Spirit-filled is rare.
Owen (56:36):
Yep.
Shannon (56:37):
Okay.
Second, here's what I've got: Christianity itself can be (56:37):
undefined
divided into two parts.
Institutional Christianity,which means like today's
denominations...
denominationalism.
And then also, the other one isEarly Christian Type Small
Groups.
Denominations are common.
Early Christian Type SmallGroups are rare.
Owen (56:57):
Totally.
Shannon (57:00):
All right.
And, thirdly (57:01):
Spiritual growth ...
which means being Spirit-filled...
can also be divided into twoparts.
Having the Fruit of the Spirit.
And having the Gifts of theSpirit.
Again, both of these are raretoday, though.
Owen (57:15):
Absolutely.
And that's what the Gallup pollsprove.
Shannon (57:18):
Wow! Okay.
All right.
And fourthly (57:20):
Today's denominations do not do a good
job of teaching these lessons.
The result is that they're incrisis today, with declining
attendance, and declining socialinfluence.
Owen (57:35):
Tragically, yeah.
Shannon (57:36):
Okay.
All right.
Fifth (57:38):
Because of this lack of teaching, then, today's average
Christian is no more Spiritualthan a non-Christian.
There it is.
There's that poll that you weretalking about.
Owen (57:50):
Yeah.
Double, double tragic.
Shannon (57:53):
Okay.
All right, and then lastly(sixth): Whether or not a person
attends a denomination, theeasiest way to grow Spiritually
is to form a small group, likethe ones that original
Christians had.
And to meet and worship, youknow, the way they did.
Owen (58:11):
That's right.
That's a-- goodness!-- that's awonderful summary, Shannon.
I'm very impressed.
(Chuckles.) And you'reabsolutely right there, on Point
Number...
I believe you called it PointSixth.
And that's something we're goingto talk a great deal about in
future episodes (58:27):
About small groups, and how they function,
and how they should function,whether or not you're a member
of a denomination.
Because like we always say,"Ifwe do what they did, we'll have
what they had."
Shannon (58:46):
Well, I must say Dr.
Owen, I feel like I've knownyou, you know, for a little
while.
Pastor John, back in the day,would call you his"invisible
friend." And now that we've metyou, and you're very involved
with, even within ourcongregation.
I just appreciate everythingthat you've done for us.
But for me personally, this hasbeen a fun episode.
(59:07):
A great way to get to know you alittle bit more.
And I've enjoyed your life'sstory.
I'm sure the listeners have.
And we certainly pray that theHoly Spirit continues to bless
you with miracles all the daysof your remaining life.
Owen (59:22):
Well, God bless you, Shannon.
And that's my prayer for you.
That's my prayer for all of ourfriends out in Podcast Land.
Shannon (59:30):
Yes.
And our friends in Podcast Landdefinitely need to remember that
this is Episode 11 in ourseries, and that we have a new
episode every-other-Tuesday.
And also, even more importantly,you know, than listening, but
grabbing these transcripts andrecordings of our episodes is
important.
Because you can follow along,and you can make notes.
(59:51):
And just...
you know, I'm a visual learner.
And so, not only listening, butalso looking, and following
along.
And they're on the website.
And so, to get these transcriptsand recordings, all you need to
do is simply go on the Internet,and go to: www.goSCpod.com.
(01:00:13):
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
But for now, this is ShannonWolfe...
Owen (01:00:21):
...
and this is Owen Allen, saying: May the God of our fathers bless (01:00:21):
undefined
you, and keep you, and guideyou, and protect you, until we
meet again.
Owen and Shannon (01:00:45):
Owen and Shannon end the episode.
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