May 25, 2021 • 52 mins
This episode is an honest exposé of the unique Spiritual event that changes a person into an infant Christian. It describes how infant Christians are created, and what happens to them afterwards. The show reveals what motivates infant Christians, and reveals a decision that every infant Christian needs to make.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
again, my friends! Welcome toEpisode 13 in our bi-weekly
series of"Saving Christianity"episodes.
(00:21):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian Family Online.
And I'm your host, John Shields.
In this episode, we're going tocontinue our discussion of
Spiritual growth-- and whatpeople call"the deeper Spiritual
walk." In other words, we'regoing to continue discussing how
you and your loved ones can havemore peace, healing, and hope in
(00:45):
your daily lives.
Now, the title of this episodeis:"The Infant Christian." Yeah,
you heard me right,"The InfantChristian." Of course, the title
might make us a littleuncomfortable.
But stay with us.
Most people don't like to thinkof themselves as"infants" in
(01:06):
anything.
Much less as being an"infant"Christian.
I know that's true because I'msomewhat uncomfortable with it
myself, especially the firsttime I heard that term.
So this is going to be anotherchallenging episode.
Just as many of the episodeshave been so far.
(01:26):
Also, as h as been the case inmany of our episodes, you're
going to hear some facts thatyou may not have ever heard
before.
And*that's why we're producingthese episodes for you.
We want you to have the factsabout Christianity that few, if
any, other books, videos,podcasts-- you name it-- can
(01:48):
give you.
But before we continue, we turnnow to our c o-h ost, Owen
Allen.
Owen, are you ready for the showtoday?
Owen (01:57):
Yo, John! I think I'm ready.
And I also want to welcome ourfriends out in podcast land.
At this point in our series, ofcourse, we're now in Chapter 8
of the book*Saving Christianity.
So I hope all of our friendshave read that chapter.
But even if they haven't, Ithink they're going to be
touched and inspired by whatthey're about to hear.
John (02:20):
Wow, I totally agree with that.
That's a big ditto.
This is a very, very, and Iemphasize*very(chuckles)
important and dramatic episode.
Owen (02:30):
Well, it really is, John.
And by the way, just as a littleinsert here, speaking of
"reading." I want to saysomething that's really
important.
I was talking to one of oursubscribers the other day, and
he surprised me.
He told me that he had nevervisited our website to read a
*transcript of our episodes.
(02:51):
And so frankly, I told him whatI'm about to tell our friends
now.
And that's this (02:55):
It's extremely helpful-- not required-- but
helpful, to read the transcriptsof these shows.
And here's why.
Scientists say that 80% of ourlearning comes from our sense of
*sight.
And only 10%(repeats) of ourlearning comes from the sense of
(03:17):
*hearing.
So, think about it.
If our friends only*listen toour shows-- and of course, I
know that's what a podcast isfor-- but if our friends only
*listen to our shows, they'reonly using 10% of their ability
to learn the facts andprinciples in these shows.
(03:38):
But-- but if they happen to goto our website and*read the
transcripts of the episodes,they're using 80% of their
ability to learn.
And think about this.
If for some reason they bothlistened*and read the episodes
at the same time, they'd beusing 90% of their ability to
(04:01):
learn.
And I know a lady who's doingthat.
But see, that's why teachersalways use pictures, posters,
and PowerPoints in classrooms.
They're learning...
or adding, I should say...
Visual Learning to all of thedifferent student's abilities
for Audio Learning.
So, let's urge our friends to goto our website at goSCpod.com(
(04:23):
repeats) and read and listen toour shows-- even at the*same
time.
I enjoy doing that myself.
And if they do, these shows aregoing to mean much, much more to
them.
John (04:40):
Yeah.
They certainly will, Owen.
I just agree with thatcompletely.
I know some subscribers who aretrying this, and they'll tell
you upfront that it makes a hugedifference.
Owen (04:50):
Absolutely.
Well, but John, now let's goahead and kick off our
discussion of something that theEarly Christians called"infant"
Christians(repeats).
And to lay the groundwork, it'llhelp our friends to remember
some of the facts that wediscussed in Episodes 09 and 10.
(05:12):
Remember, those were theepisodes that had the titles:
"The natural person," and"TheSpiritual Growth Charts." This
episode is built on thoseearlier episodes.
Because you know, we haven'tmentioned this enough I guess,
John.
But our podcast is called by thetechnical people a"serial"
(repeats) podcast.
(05:34):
And that means that it's aseries of connected shows that
build on one another.
So, if they want to get readyfor this(episode), our friends
can go back and review Episodes09 and 10 on the website.
John (05:49):
Yeah, that's right, Owen.
And those two earlier episodes--just as a reminder-- told us
that people start out in life as"natural" people.
And then, the first step inSpiritual growth is to become an
"infant" Christian.
Just as it is in the naturalworld, it is in the spiritual
(06:13):
world.
And that means all of us need toknow what"infant" Christians
are.
Owen (06:19):
Well, that's true.
That's true.
And so actually, this episode isgoing to help our friends--
think about this a second-- findout where they*are in the
Spiritual growth process.
And to do that, we're going toanswer five questions in this
episode.
(06:39):
And here are those fivequestions: Number one-"What is a
non-Christian?" Two-" What is aChristian?" Three-"How does a
non-Christian become aChristian?" Four-" How is a
Christian different from anon-Christian?" And five-"What
(07:01):
is an'infant' Christian?"
John (07:04):
These are*extremely important questions.
And I don't think that a lot ofpeople have clear answers to
them.
At least, I don't think a lot ofpeople have the same kind of
clear answers to them that theEarly Christians had.
And Owen, I can't tell you...
I just love talking about this...
(07:25):
bringing clarity to thissubject.
There is just no need for thereto be confusion and
misunderstanding.
And so this is an excitingepisode.
Owen (07:37):
Well, I think so.
I get excited(chuckles) aboutit.
But see John, look.
Here's a big, big problem.
*We are answering these(questions) the way the Early
Christians answered them.
Because, as we say, nobody'sdoing that today.
Listen, we're answering thesefive very deep questions the way
(08:00):
that Peter...
and John...
and Paul...
and Luke...
and Jesus's two half-brothers,James and Jude...
and Jesus Himself...
answered them.
That's the key (08:12):
The way that *they answered them.
John (08:16):
In other words, we're going to define-- something
we've talked about previously--the Fuzzy Words in these
questions with Early Christiandefinitions.
And that's so important.
And then we're going to usethose definitions as models-- a
template if you will-- as itrelates to our daily behavior,
(08:37):
the way we agreed to with thoseThree Ground Rules back in
Episode 08.
Owen (08:43):
Yeah, way back in Episode 08.
We're still building on that.
See John, that's why we are a"serial" podcast.
But look, here we go.
Let's answer the first question.
And that question was:"What is anon-Christian?"(Repeats.)
John (09:02):
Well, I think many people ...
*many people...
would say a"non-Christian" is aperson-- this is probably the
default answer-- is someone whodoesn't go to church.
In other words, a person whodoesn't go to a certain place at
a certain time.
Or maybe, a person who wasn'tchristened as a baby.
(09:26):
Or maybe a person who has neveranswered an-- quote--"altar
call"-- end quote-- at the endof a worship service, and h ad
been prayed for by a pastor orpriest.
And of course, that's just a fewof probably maybe the top five
answers.
There a re many, many, manymore.
Owen (09:44):
That's right.
Maybe there are*too manyanswers.
John (09:46):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Owen (09:47):
And those are totally some of the answers that people would
probably give.
But look at this, John.
Here's the mistake.
Those answers that people couldgive were not*possible for the
Early Christians.
*None of those answers that youjust gave would have been given
by the Early Christians.
Why not?
(10:09):
Because, as we know from all ourprevious episodes: Churches,
church services, pastors, andpriests, didn't*exist in Early
Christianity.
John (10:21):
Yeah, that's right.
And you know, none of thesethings-- wow, think about that--
existed in the First Century.
And those are traditions thatwere started by today's
denominations.
But to the Early Christians--listen to this-- a
"non-Christian" was a person whohad not yet had a*certain
(10:43):
*experience.
Owen (10:44):
Exactly.
And we're going to talk aboutthat*experience.
You know, John, back in Episode09, we laid down sort of a
principle (10:54):
We said that *non-Christians are"natural"
(repeats) people.
And we discussed that at lengthand the Greek meanings of that
word.
But the Early Christians calledthem that because non-Christians
are-- quotes--"naturally"motivated.
Non-Christians are motivated bytheir human"nature." And that's
(11:17):
why they called them"natural"people.
John (11:23):
Yeah.
That's right.
Here's another point, Owen.
I think that's so important.
We can't emphasize it enough.
It's this (11:30):
Non-Christians-- and this is such a significant
statement-- non-Christians onlyhave*one inner motivator.
And as we've discussed over ourdifferent episodes, that may be
a new, or maybe even an unusualway of thinking about it, in
(11:52):
terms of a"motivator." Butthey're*only motivated by their
Selfish Human Natures.
And that's a huge problem forthem.
Owen (12:04):
That*is a huge problem.
You know, remember John, back inEpisode 09.
We talked about the 2,400psychiatrists in San Francisco,
who met there for this bigmeeting.
And they announced to the worldthat-- check this out-- our
Selfish Human Nature is thecause...
(12:28):
our natures are the cause...
of all the trouble in the world.
Look at that.
And so what does that fact meanto non-Christians?
It reminds me of a mother I onceknew who always said that her
children,"Couldn't stay out oftrouble." Well, that's what
happens to non-Christians, I'msorry to report.
"They can't stay out oftrouble."
John (12:51):
Yeah, that's right.
You know, back in Episode 10, wehad a...
actually a*Spiritual GrowthChart for our friends that
showed a"picture" of anon-Christian's motivation.
And that chart, if you recall,was totally*black.
And so let's...
Owen, remind our friends aboutthat chart.
You...
(13:11):
that chart is your idea.
Owen (13:14):
Yeah(chuckles).
Yeah.
Great, great, John.
Thinking it...
to be deathbed honest, it's theHoly Spirit's idea.
But that's another story.
We did discuss that Black Chart,if you want to call it that, at
the end of Episode 10.
And remember, it's also on page89 of the book,*Saving
(13:34):
Christianity.
So, right here in this script--let's see, we're actually about
13 or 14 minutes into the script-- we're going to put it right
here again in the transcript.
So when they pull it up on thewebsite, they can look at it.
But John, as we said, the tragicthing about this particular
(13:56):
chart is that it's completely*black.
And I'm looking at a picture ofit here in the transcript now.
It's completely*black.
Why is it completely black?
It's completely black becausenon-Christian motivation starts
at the bottom-right of the chartwith the Selfish Human Nature--
(14:18):
moves up the chart throughpeople's Minds at the top--
moves back down the other sideto the bottom-left into the
Human Spirit.
And so what that means is...
why it's*black...
is because non-Christians, withthem, the Selfish Human Nature
dominates their*entire(repeats)motivational system.
John (14:43):
Owen, just briefly, I can remember teaching this concept
one time in a classroom setting.
And with some less thanflattering words describing our
Selfish Human Nature.
And one of my students, anadult, was so offended by that,
that they(*sic) literally turnedtheir back to me.
(15:07):
They continued to listen.
But they would not...
it was their(chuckles) pushbackon that.
That they just could not bringthemselves to believe that.
But you say,"How do you guysreally know that?" Well, we
start by looking in the mirrorevery morning.
(Laughter.) And so we understandthat completely.
The only thing motivating anon-Christian is Our Selfish
(15:32):
Nature.
Non-Christians...
and here's the punch line...
non-Christians only have*oneinner motivator.
One.
And what is that?
Well, it's all black.
And that's scary for all of us.
Owen (15:48):
You know, I had to laugh, John.
I had a lady in a class onetime, who got up and walked out
and never came back.
She said because hergrandchildren were so sweet
(laughter) as babies, and socute, and sweet, and gentle,
that there's no possible waythat they were totally negative
(16:11):
in their behavior.
And she dropped out of theclass.
So it is scary to people.
But our friends are strongerthan that out in Podcast Land.
They're hanging on.
Because we said that*selfish*motivator is the cause of all
the world's trouble.
That's what we need to dealwith.
It's the cause of all the crime...
(16:33):
drug abuse...
divorce...
child abuse...
suicides...
and all the other trouble in theworld.
And that's important.
John (16:40):
Yes, it is important.
And the bad news is thatnon-Christians, can't...
that's right...
we*can't control this selfishmotivation.
At least, for not a very longperiod of time.
No matter how hard we try.
We are, as human beings,*naturally selfish.
(17:04):
And Owen, back to your comment amoment ago about the babies.
You know, isn't it interestingthat we never had to teach our
children to do*wrong?
Never.
We had to teach them, as earlyas they can understand, to do
*right! Because it camenaturally to them to do wrong,
(17:26):
to be selfish.
And again, that's why the EarlyChristians called them"natural"
people.
It just makes sense.
Owen (17:34):
And you know, John, that's so true.
Anybody that's raised children,or lived any life at all, knows
that's true.
Yeah, I say in my book, children-- as you say"naturally"-- steal
one another's toys, lie aboutwhether not they've eaten their
spinach, and all those types ofthings.
(Chuckles.) And that just comes*natural to them.
(17:55):
So, John, the most importantthing that you've said so far is
that non-Christians*cannotcontrol their selfishness.
At least not for long.
They*think they control it.
And they*say they control it.
But in real life, they*can't.
John (18:14):
Yeah, it always comes creeping back.
And let's prove that, Owen, witha story of Jesus's original 12
disciples.
You remember, Jesus taught themfor three years.
They lived with Him, and Heshowed them miracles.
They heard all of His teachingfor three years, up close and
personal.
(18:34):
But, was His intense trainingable to help them control their
selfishness?
Owen (18:41):
That's a great question, John.
Because when I was growing up,as a boy in Sunday school and
all those types of things, Inaturally thought that Peter...
and John...
and Andrew...
and Philip...
and all of those original 12apostles that walked with Jesus
were*Spiritual people.
Well, let's find out.
(19:01):
And I think the quickest way todo that-- again we're in Chapter
8 today-- I want to read acouple of things from pages 95
and 96 in the book.
Because it says,"Let's look backat the*behavior of the 12
original disciples that traveledwith Jesus." Number one: The
(19:22):
whole time Jesus was teachingthem, they argued among
themselves about which one ofthem was the*greatest disciple.
And then toward the end of theirtraining period, one of the
disciples made a secret dealwith Jesus's enemies(repeats) to
*betray him, and then actuallyled an armed mob to Jesus's
(19:45):
hiding place to*arrest Him.
Of course, Jesus knew that Hewas about to be betrayed.
So He asked three(repeats) ofHis most trusted disciples to
come and pray with Him for thestrength and courage to face the
ordeal.
But, instead of praying withHim, the three disciples went to
(20:07):
*sleep.
And then(chuckles), when the mobarrived to arrest Jesus, and
they dragged Him to the chiefpriest's home to be
interrogated, one of Jesus'sdisciples followed at a
distance, and lingered in thecourtyard to see what was going
to happen.
Of course, that was Peter.
(20:28):
But when some of the priest'sdisciples recognized him, and
accused him of being a disciple,what did he do?
He swore, cursed, and said he'dnever even met Jesus.
Finally, John.
Horrible, horrible.
After Jesus was tried, andexecuted, and buried, the
disciples hid behind lockeddoors and wouldn't even go
(20:51):
outside.
Why?
Because they were afraid they'dbe recognized as Jesus's former
disciples.
So, I think let's stop here.
We could keep reading.
There are other examples in thebook.
But here's our surprise fromdocumented history, John.
(21:11):
Think about this now.
There were no Spiritual peopleon planet earth when Jesus
walked here.
*Not even his own disciples*.
Why?
Because there were no Christiansat that time.
Everybody on earth was anon-Christian.
That meant everybody wasselfish.
(21:33):
There were no Spiritual peopleuntil after(repeats) Jesus rose
from the dead and returned toheaven.
John (21:43):
So we've actually answered our first question.
We've defined a"non-Christian"as a person who can't control
his or her selfishness,
Owen (21:56):
Right.
That's actually true.
So we have answered thequestion,"What is a non
Christian?" partially.
Let's flesh it out slightly.
Non-Christians are people whohave only*one inner motivator.
That one inner motivator istheir Selfish Human Nature.
They don't have a motivator forSpiritual growth.
John (22:20):
Right.
You can't access somethingthat's not there.
Owen (22:23):
You can't"sell out of an empty wagon." So they don't have
...
listen, they do not have*supernatural-- there's the key
word-- they do not have*supernatural peace, healing,
and hope, in their lives.
John (22:39):
And that is a terrible problem for millions and
millions of people the worldover.
Bad habits, addictions, conflictin their lives.
In fact, it's everywhere.
And despite our best intentions,we can't do anything about it to
(23:00):
bring really...
bring change...
as you say, Owen, so much: "Change isn't change until there (23:03):
undefined
*is change." So t hey're likeJesus's 12 original disciples.
T hey're living selfish lives.
They may not*want to.
They may*wish it weren't true.
But they can't*stop themselvesfrom doing it.
Owen (23:21):
That's the thing about it, John.
You know, selfishness is sort oflike an addiction.
You know,"You can't eat justone."(Chuckles.) But exactly
right, John.
And that fact...
and the fact is, that Jesus'smost highly trained disciples
could*not be Spiritual.
And so that proves that nonon-Christian anywhere can be
(23:45):
Christian(error)...
uh...
can be*Spiritual.
They don't have the equipmentwithin themselves to be
Spiritual.
John (23:51):
Yeah.
And Owen, I know when we saythat, it seems hopeless for
millions of people.
And in many ways it is.
But, as we've said from thebeginning broadcast here, that
the Good News is that there*is asolution.
Right! We're not just talkingabout the problem.
(24:12):
But there*is a solution.
Non-Christians have the samesolution that Jesus's disciples
had after he returned to heaven.
Man, that is some powerful, GoodNews.
Because that's when thedisciples became the Spiritual
people on earth.
Owen (24:32):
Hot dog! Yeah.
That's exactly right, John.
And so here we are.
We're answering now the secondbig question on our list:"What
is a Christian?" Number twoquestion:"What is a Christian?"
And I think maybe the best wayto answer that John, properly,
(24:53):
would be to tell our friendswhat happened at the very last
meal that Jesus had with hisdisciples.
Because obviously, He knew theycouldn't control their
selfishness.
He frequently lost his temperabout it, and chastised them
about it.
But all the time, He had a plan-- a plan to solve their problem
(25:15):
.
John (25:16):
Um.
Thankfully, yeah.
He understood them completely.
He understands us completely.
And we're talking about what isreferenced in the Bible as"The
Last Supper." And it was at thatmeal that Jesus brought forth a
revelation that He had asolution for the problem of
(25:39):
their selfishness.
Owen (25:40):
Imagine, imagine, what we're saying here.
But sadly, even that...
obviously John, they didn'tunderstand.
Because as we've said so often,Spiritual matters are only
Spiritually understood.
And they weren't Spiritual atthat time.
So they didn't understand thatthis solution that He was
talking about was that He wasgoing-- within the eight next
(26:05):
weeks-- He was going toestablish a new Spiritual
movement on earth.
And that new Spiritual movementwould eventually be known as
"Christianity." But they didn'tunderstand that.
(Chuckles.) They didn't evenunderstand this was their last
meal with Him.
John (26:23):
That's right.
But here we go.
Jesus explained the solution toselfishness.
Isn't that something?
And that solution-- this is whatgets my motor running-- is still
available to all of us today.
So Owen, let's go with the GoodNews.
(26:43):
Let's tell our friends what thatsolution is.
Owen (26:46):
John, it happened as we said at"The Last Supper." And
frankly, it's such a...
Jesus made a statement that isso powerful that for me, at
least, it's hard to read withoutgetting emotional.
But let's try.
He said that after He had leftearth and returned to heaven--
(27:06):
think about it now-- this iswhat He was going to*do up in
heaven.
And this is what he said tothem:"I will ask the Father, and
He will give you another Helperwho will give you a deeper
knowledge of the truth, who willgive you the supernatural
(27:27):
strength you need for everydaylife.
And this other Helper, orComforter, is the Holy Spirit.
He will live*in you.
And He will teach you allthings.
And He will guide you into alltruth."
John (27:51):
So let's think about it in the context and the verbiage
we've been using along the way.
In other words, He was going tosend back to earth, a second
(repeats)*inner*motivator forpeople.
Think about that.
And that motivator would be thesolution to the problem that
(28:14):
humankind has controlling theirselfish behavior.
Owen (28:18):
Absolutely.
See, because once this newmotivator-- who is supernatural,
and who is coming straight fromthe throne room of heaven-- was
inside people, they would thenbecome known as"Christians." And
that tells us that one of the*purposes of Christianity is to
(28:40):
give people the ability to beSpiritual.
And again-- defining our terms--by being"Spiritual," we mean the
ability to overcome pride, lust,bad habits, addictions, and
every form of selfishness.
John (28:58):
That's amazing.
I never get tired of tellingthis story.
So let's continue.
Let's tell our friends whatJesus did next.
Let's tell them how He fulfilled...
how it actually came to be...
this incredible promise for allpeople.
Owen (29:17):
This is so important
that occurred immediately afterthis last meal with the
disciples.
Later that same night, He(Jesus)was arrested.
And within a few hours, He wassentenced to death...
was crucified...
and died...
and was buried.
(29:38):
But-- three days later, He rosefrom the dead, appeared to the
disciples at their hideout intheir locked room, and He gave
them their final instructionsbefore He returned to heaven.
And here's what He said to them: "Don't leave Jerusalem. (29:53):
undefined
Wait here for the promise thatyou heard me tell about.
In a few days, you'll be*baptized in the Holy Spirit.
And you'll receive supernaturalpower when He comes*in you."
John (30:16):
Yes.
Wow.
Amen.
Hallelujah.
And on and on.
Praise be to God.
Jesus was telling them what wasgoing to happen ten days later,
doing during a Jewishwheat-harvest festival that the
people called the"Festival ofPentecost." But the most
(30:39):
important word in Jesus'sinstructions was the word
"baptized." And so it's veryimportant that we define that
Fuzzy Word for our friends.
Owen (30:53):
Um, that's right, John.
That's the key to Christianity.
And it's probably one of themost misunderstood words in
Christianity today.
The word"baptized" in the FirstCentury Greek sense is an
extremely important word.
In fact, it is the key tounderstanding Christianity.
(31:13):
But see, when people hear theword"baptized" today, they think
it's a religious word.
They think it's referring to thewater-baptisms that today's
denominations perform: Christening babies, pouring (31:24):
undefined
water on adults, or immersingpeople in pools of water.
John (31:32):
But, at The Last Supper, Jesus was using the word
"baptize" with its First Centurymeaning.
And that had nothing to do withputting water on people.
Owen (31:45):
(Chuckles.) No, it didn't.
Check this out now.
Let's be very careful here.
To First Century people, theword"baptize" was not-- was not
-- a religious word.
It was an everyday word that allmen, women and children used in
everyday life.
And here's what the word meantto First Century people: It
(32:08):
meant to immerse something in asubstance-- it could be water,
oil, other substances-- and thenlet it soak in that substance
until its makeup was permanently*changed.
For example, when First Centurypeople made pickles(repeats),
they soaked cucumbers in vinegaruntil the cucumbers turned into
(32:33):
pickles.
And then guess what they said.
They said they had now"baptized"the cucumbers.
John (32:41):
So, when Jesus told the disciples that they were going
to be"baptized in the Spirit,"with their ears they understood
the word, of course, in theircontext of the First Century.
They understood that the HolySpirit was going to come down
from heaven, and immerse a partof them until that part of them
(33:05):
was permanently changed.
Is that the way to understand it?
Owen (33:10):
Absolutely.
Just think about that.
But see, then I'm sure ourfriends in Podcast Land are
thinking(chuckles),"Okay, wellwhat part of them was the Holy
Spirit going to immerse?
How was that going to change thedisciples?
When was that going to happen?
And what would the long-termresults?"
John (33:29):
Then these are history-changing questions, to
be sure.
In fact, they are watershedquestions that point us back to
the flowchart that we're using.
We're talking about Circle#3 atthe bottom-left of the chart.
And that's the circle thatrepresents the Human Spirit(or
Soul).
(33:50):
And remember, we said that inits original condition the Human
Spirit is Spiritually"dead." Inother words, it has no ability
to motivate people towardsSpiritual living.
Owen (34:06):
That's true, John.
And there's so much to be saidthere.
We covered all those points inan earlier episode.
But as I'm just listening to youand thinking about it, the
internal spirit, or soul, inpeople is keeping them alive.
That's the life force in humans.
It came from heaven.
It returns to heaven.
John (34:27):
That invisible part of us!
Owen (34:29):
That invisible, immortal part of us.
That's the very part of peoplethat the Holy Spirit indwells
them, and soaks in power to makethem Christians.
That's the part that the HolySpirit-- quote--"baptizes." That
means immerses, and soaks insupernatural power, just as
(34:53):
Jesus promised at The LastSupper.
But, let's slow down just asecond now.
Because we really need toclearly understand what happened
next.
Because what happened next isone...
I believe*is the...
most important day in humanhistory.
(35:13):
Yet, it's a day that most peopledon't know anything about.
It's a day that scientists andhistorians call"The Day of
Pentecost."
John (35:23):
Yeah, and just to remind us, this is a real calendar day
in history.
We need to talk about whathappened on that morning.
It was the annual"Feast ofPentecost." Now, that feast
wasn't unusual.
But something(chuckles)*veryunusual was going to happen on
(35:44):
that day.
Because that day became theBirthday of Christianity.
That's the morning thatChristianity was founded.
Owen (35:55):
Exactly.
A lot of people don't realizethere has not*always been a
Christianity.
(Chuckles.) It was founded thatmorning in the First Century.
But here's what happened.
Jesus had left earth andreturned to heaven just like He
said.
And the disciples obeyed Hiscommand, and they stayed in
Jerusalem, just like He toldthem.
(36:16):
They moved into a house togetherto wait for whatever it was.
Remember, they didn't fullyunderstand whatever it was that
was going to happen to them.
You know, there were 120 packedin that house.
That included the 12 originaldisciples, plus Jesus's mother
and brothers and sisters.
(36:37):
We don't know where His(step-father) was at that point.
We assume Joseph had died.
And there were a hundred more ofJesus's most loyal disciples,
all waiting patiently in thathouse.
John (36:50):
Right.
And the days tick by.
In other words, for 10 days,they did that.
And nothing happened.
Oh, but when it happened, on themorning of the Feast of
Pentecost, the whole world waschanged in just a few minutes,
Owen (37:08):
That's right, John.
The whole world changed in a fewminutes.
And a lot of people don'trealize, most Jewish feasts were
at least a week long.
The Feast of Pentecost was aone-day feast.
Because the people had to getback to the fields and harvest.
So here it was (37:24):
This morning of this one-day feast called
"Pentecost." It was nineo'clock, their time, in the
morning.
The date was May 30th, in theyear 30 AD.
And so there they were, on thisone-day wheat-harvest festival,
waiting patiently.
And by the way, Jerusalem-- andthis is important-- was filled
(37:47):
with thousands of visitors.
Thousands of pilgrims.
And the record states that theywere representing every known
nation on earth.
There were pilgrims from everyknown nation.
And they had come to town forthat*one day to celebrate.
John (38:05):
Yeah.
And then that day, Christianitywas born.
Owen (38:10):
Amen.
Christianity was born.
Here's what happened (38:12):
The disciples had finished
breakfast.
They were sitting in clusterstalking and praying-- as you
said John, they had done for 10days.
And suddenly, now this is 9:00am in the morning.
Clear sky.
Mild day.
Suddenly, they heard the soundof a roaring...
like an approaching tornado.
(38:34):
And that sound came right totheir house.
And they started looking aroundin wonder.
And then they saw what appearedto be fire filling the rooms of
that house.
They(the disciples) were allthrough the house, even on the
upper roof.
And the fire divided itself intosmaller individual flames.
(38:57):
And these little small flames--the Greek word says--"settled
down*in" each disciple.
And their inner spirits weresoaked...
were immersed and soaked insupernatural power.
John (39:15):
And that is...
if you're driving, you may wantto pull over on that one.
(Chuckles.) That is the"baptism." That is the immersion
in Spiritual power that Jesushad promised them at The Last
Supper.
It was now fulfilled.
And that's the"certainexperience" we said earlier that
(39:38):
makes a*Christian.
So this event was the Birthdayof Christianity.
Owen (39:44):
That's right.
And it's never died to this day.
So, this was the"baptism in theHoly Spirit" that Jesus had
promised the disciples at thatlast meal, approximately eight
weeks earlier.
And now the promise had cometrue.
But let's be clear on one point,John.
(40:04):
The part of the disciples thatthe Holy Spirit indwelled and
immersed with power that morningwas their Human Spirits.
A synonym for that inChristianity is their"soul." We
(Christians) talk about"soulsaving." But that's what makes a
Christian.
That immersion, that indwelling,immersion, soaking with power,
(40:29):
is what makes a Christian.
The Holy Spirit indwells people-- non-Christians-- immerses
their souls in power, awakensthose souls to Spiritual life,
and gives those souls theability to do what?
To*resist natural selfishness.
John (40:48):
So now, Owen, we've answered, I think very clearly
and specifically, the questionof how a non-Christian becomes a
Christian.
And we've used Early Christiandefinitions to do it, just as we
promised early on.
Owen (41:07):
Exactly.
And so we've actually*alsoanswered our*third big question
that we mentioned earlier:"Howdoes a non-Christian become a
Christian?" And we now know thatnon-Christians realize-- they
come to some awareness-- thatthey*can't control their own
(41:27):
selfishness.
They get sick and tired of allthe trouble their own
selfishness is causing them.
So what do they simply have todo?
They pray for the very sameexperience the 120 disciples had
on Pentecost morning.
They pray to commit their livesto Jesus-- to Christ-- and to be
(41:48):
indwelled by the Spirit.
Then guess what?
They have a personal Pentecost.
Always.
They always have it.
It never fails.
And that's all there is, really,to becoming a Christian.
John (42:02):
Wow.
And that's just incredible.
And and these facts-- this isthe truth-- also answer another
question.
And it also tells us howChristians are"different" from
non-Christians.
Owen (42:19):
That's very true, John.
Because the fourth question onour list was:"How is a Christian
*different from anon-Christian?"(Repeats.) And
John, let me just stick in athought here.
I don't want to get too lengthy.
But in my book I tell the story-- I believe the name of that
(42:41):
little story is"The Friday(Night) Group"-- and I tell the
story about a small group ofChristian men that used to meet
in my home every Friday night.
And all of these were highlyexperienced Christians.
Several were pastors.
Several had been missionaries.
And so, one night I asked themthat question:"How is a
(43:03):
Christian*different from anon-Christian?" And you know,
they couldn't(chuckles) answerit.
They could not answer it.
That was in my learning period.
I was stunned.
That was years ago.
But there is one specificSpiritual difference between a
Christian and a non-Christian.
And here it is.
John (43:21):
Owen, before you give the definition.
I want to jump in and just saythis.
I really do think that manypeople don't understand that
this is this something thatactually happens*in you.
And they associate Christianity,"Oh, you guys are people who
(43:41):
live and walk by faith." Thatthere somehow isn't a*reality to
it.
Right! And so this definition isso helpful.
Owen (43:52):
Huh.
Well, let's tell our friendsthen.
Here we go.
A Christian is a person who isindwelled by the Holy Spirit,
and has had his or her innerspirit baptized in supernatural
power.
So that he or she now has theability to live a Spiritual
(44:15):
life.
But-- but-- a non-Christian is*not indwelled by the Holy
Spirit, and does*not have theability to live a Spiritual
life.
John (44:29):
And that same definition also answers our*final question
of the episode.
You can see how they're linkedtogether.
And it also tells us what aninfant Christian is.
Owen (44:41):
Exactly, exactly.
So we have answered the fifthand final question without
actually doing it.
Because the purpose of thisepisode was to tell our friends
what an"infant" Christian is.
That's our title of Episode 13,"The Infant Christian." So
question number five.
Last question.
(45:02):
"What is an*infant Christian?"And we know the answer.
And here it is.
"Infant" Christians are newChristians who've been indwelled
by the Holy Spirit, yes.
They've had their inner spiritsbaptized in Spiritual power,
yes.
But, as new Christians-- hang on-- they aren't allowing the
(45:27):
indwelling Holy Spirit tomotivate them.
And that's why the Gallup pollswe've talked about so much show
that today's average Christianis*no more spiritual than a
non-Christian.
It's simply because today'saverage Christian is an"infant"
Christian(chuckles), and theGallup polls are surveying
(45:51):
"infant" Christians!
John (45:53):
Right.
And Owen, we have a chart forthat, showing that, here in the
script, that...
the chart shows us what thatlooks like.
Owen (46:03):
Right.
Right here at about 45 minutesin, we've got that chart.
And this time the chart is notcompletely*black.
The left side of it's*white.
And in that chart, the wholeleft arm up and down the side is
*white.
That's the whole left side thatincludes Circle#3 at the bottom,
(46:24):
the spirit.
And the mind(Circle#2) at thetop-- the human mind at the top
-- is linked.
And so there's a little bit of*white even flowing up into the
mind.
Not totally, but a little bit.
John (46:36):
Owen, I just think about this, just listening, talking
about this, that Barna's surveyor Gallop's polls, and all of
those things.
And I think what saddens me somuch is that one of the
motivators for this entirepodcast is that so many people
don't even know this.
(46:58):
Don't understand it.
And their infancy is...
(it) literally comes from noteven understanding this.
Owen (47:06):
That's right, that's right.
No question about it.
And so, the trouble that happensthere is that these new
Christians, these...
in the First Century theyactually called them"children"
regardless of their age.
And that wasn't a put down.
It was a fact.
(47:26):
Their spirit was now alive andnow ready to motivate: Flow up
in the person's mind, try tomotivate him or her to resist
the flesh.
But the operative word is"trying." Because, and here's
the final point.
This is where today's Christian"crisis" enters the picture.
Because John,*why aren't peoplebeing motivated?
(47:52):
Why*aren't Christians Spiritual?
Because-- here it is-- they'renot being*taught how to be
Spiritually motivated.
They're not being taught whatwe're calling"The Early
Christian Lifestyle" ofSpiritual fruit and Spiritual
gifts in their daily lives.
Today's InstitutionalDenominations*don't teach that.
John (48:16):
And that's so true, and so unfortunate.
And we've said so many times inthese episodes that a lot of
Christians think that as long asthey are"saved"-- is the word.
That apart from that, there'snothing else to be done.
They've bought their"fireinsurance." So when they die
that will take effect.
(48:37):
And they've built their"fireescape." And now all they need
to do is just relax(chuckles)and enjoy life on their terms.
And they believe that,"Well,everything's good for the next
life."
Owen (48:52):
And that's true, John.
I mean, they are safe.
They will go to heaven.
But-- but-- it's*not true inthis respect.
Because, as we've said in theseepisodes.
And this is the biggest lessonthat I've learned in my long
life as a Christian.
One of the*purposes ofChristianity is for Christians
(49:13):
to live"a little bit of heaven"here on earth.
We've been saying that since thefirst episode.
One of the*purposes is toexperience the marvelous Fruit
of the Spirit, and the wonderfulGifts of the Spirit, in everyday
life.
So John, I don't know.
I think maybe we should closethis episode the way we closed
(49:39):
Episode 09, back earlier.
I think we should close with aprayer for our friends.
In Episode 09, we prayed for ourfriends to have the strength and
courage to accept the teachingthat human nature is selfish,
and that we can't control it.
And so, to close this episode,maybe we should pray two things
for our friends (50:02):
First, if they're*not indwelled by the
Holy Spirit and made intoChristians, let's pray that
they'll pray for that experienceimmediately.
And second, if they*are alreadyindwelled, and if they*are
already Christians, let's praythat they'll immediately start
(50:27):
letting the Holy Spirit motivatemore of their everyday behavior.
John (50:34):
Yeah, let's pray for them -- pray for them right now--
that God would cut through allthe misunderstanding and Fuzzy
Words:"And Lord, we ask You tohelp every person listening to
this episode right now to acceptJesus as their Savior.
Give them their own personalPentecost right this minute.
(50:59):
Then help them to start to growSpiritually, and be, and become,
all that God created them to beand to become."
Owen (51:12):
Uh.
Amen.
Thank you, John.
Well, would you believe it?
The big clock on the wall istelling us that it's time to
close.
And this has been anotherincredible episode.
But it's time to go.
John (51:28):
And, I want to remind everyone that this is Episode
13, and that a script andrecording is available on our
website at (51:37):
goSCpod.com.
Owen (51:42):
And for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (51:44):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf,
saying...
Owen (51:48):
...
May the God of our fathers blessyou, and keep you, and guide
you, and protect you, until wemeet again.
Owen and John (51:59):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
again, my friends! Welcome toEpisode 13 in our bi-weekly
series of"Saving Christianity"episodes.
(00:21):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian Family Online.
And I'm your host, John Shields.
In this episode, we're going tocontinue our discussion of
Spiritual growth-- and whatpeople call"the deeper Spiritual
walk." In other words, we'regoing to continue discussing how
you and your loved ones can havemore peace, healing, and hope in
(00:45):
your daily lives.
Now, the title of this episodeis:"The Infant Christian." Yeah,
you heard me right,"The InfantChristian." Of course, the title
might make us a littleuncomfortable.
But stay with us.
Most people don't like to thinkof themselves as"infants" in
(01:06):
anything.
Much less as being an"infant"Christian.
I know that's true because I'msomewhat uncomfortable with it
myself, especially the firsttime I heard that term.
So this is going to be anotherchallenging episode.
Just as many of the episodeshave been so far.
(01:26):
Also, as h as been the case inmany of our episodes, you're
going to hear some facts thatyou may not have ever heard
before.
And*that's why we're producingthese episodes for you.
We want you to have the factsabout Christianity that few, if
any, other books, videos,podcasts-- you name it-- can
(01:48):
give you.
But before we continue, we turnnow to our c o-h ost, Owen
Allen.
Owen, are you ready for the showtoday?
Owen (01:57):
Yo, John! I think I'm ready.
And I also want to welcome ourfriends out in podcast land.
At this point in our series, ofcourse, we're now in Chapter 8
of the book*Saving Christianity.
So I hope all of our friendshave read that chapter.
But even if they haven't, Ithink they're going to be
touched and inspired by whatthey're about to hear.
John (02:20):
Wow, I totally agree with that.
That's a big ditto.
This is a very, very, and Iemphasize*very(chuckles)
important and dramatic episode.
Owen (02:30):
Well, it really is, John.
And by the way, just as a littleinsert here, speaking of
"reading." I want to saysomething that's really
important.
I was talking to one of oursubscribers the other day, and
he surprised me.
He told me that he had nevervisited our website to read a
*transcript of our episodes.
(02:51):
And so frankly, I told him whatI'm about to tell our friends
now.
And that's this (02:55):
It's extremely helpful-- not required-- but
helpful, to read the transcriptsof these shows.
And here's why.
Scientists say that 80% of ourlearning comes from our sense of
*sight.
And only 10%(repeats) of ourlearning comes from the sense of
(03:17):
*hearing.
So, think about it.
If our friends only*listen toour shows-- and of course, I
know that's what a podcast isfor-- but if our friends only
*listen to our shows, they'reonly using 10% of their ability
to learn the facts andprinciples in these shows.
(03:38):
But-- but if they happen to goto our website and*read the
transcripts of the episodes,they're using 80% of their
ability to learn.
And think about this.
If for some reason they bothlistened*and read the episodes
at the same time, they'd beusing 90% of their ability to
(04:01):
learn.
And I know a lady who's doingthat.
But see, that's why teachersalways use pictures, posters,
and PowerPoints in classrooms.
They're learning...
or adding, I should say...
Visual Learning to all of thedifferent student's abilities
for Audio Learning.
So, let's urge our friends to goto our website at goSCpod.com(
(04:23):
repeats) and read and listen toour shows-- even at the*same
time.
I enjoy doing that myself.
And if they do, these shows aregoing to mean much, much more to
them.
John (04:40):
Yeah.
They certainly will, Owen.
I just agree with thatcompletely.
I know some subscribers who aretrying this, and they'll tell
you upfront that it makes a hugedifference.
Owen (04:50):
Absolutely.
Well, but John, now let's goahead and kick off our
discussion of something that theEarly Christians called"infant"
Christians(repeats).
And to lay the groundwork, it'llhelp our friends to remember
some of the facts that wediscussed in Episodes 09 and 10.
(05:12):
Remember, those were theepisodes that had the titles:
"The natural person," and"TheSpiritual Growth Charts." This
episode is built on thoseearlier episodes.
Because you know, we haven'tmentioned this enough I guess,
John.
But our podcast is called by thetechnical people a"serial"
(repeats) podcast.
(05:34):
And that means that it's aseries of connected shows that
build on one another.
So, if they want to get readyfor this(episode), our friends
can go back and review Episodes09 and 10 on the website.
John (05:49):
Yeah, that's right, Owen.
And those two earlier episodes--just as a reminder-- told us
that people start out in life as"natural" people.
And then, the first step inSpiritual growth is to become an
"infant" Christian.
Just as it is in the naturalworld, it is in the spiritual
(06:13):
world.
And that means all of us need toknow what"infant" Christians
are.
Owen (06:19):
Well, that's true.
That's true.
And so actually, this episode isgoing to help our friends--
think about this a second-- findout where they*are in the
Spiritual growth process.
And to do that, we're going toanswer five questions in this
episode.
(06:39):
And here are those fivequestions: Number one-"What is a
non-Christian?" Two-" What is aChristian?" Three-"How does a
non-Christian become aChristian?" Four-" How is a
Christian different from anon-Christian?" And five-"What
(07:01):
is an'infant' Christian?"
John (07:04):
These are*extremely important questions.
And I don't think that a lot ofpeople have clear answers to
them.
At least, I don't think a lot ofpeople have the same kind of
clear answers to them that theEarly Christians had.
And Owen, I can't tell you...
I just love talking about this...
(07:25):
bringing clarity to thissubject.
There is just no need for thereto be confusion and
misunderstanding.
And so this is an excitingepisode.
Owen (07:37):
Well, I think so.
I get excited(chuckles) aboutit.
But see John, look.
Here's a big, big problem.
*We are answering these(questions) the way the Early
Christians answered them.
Because, as we say, nobody'sdoing that today.
Listen, we're answering thesefive very deep questions the way
(08:00):
that Peter...
and John...
and Paul...
and Luke...
and Jesus's two half-brothers,James and Jude...
and Jesus Himself...
answered them.
That's the key (08:12):
The way that *they answered them.
John (08:16):
In other words, we're going to define-- something
we've talked about previously--the Fuzzy Words in these
questions with Early Christiandefinitions.
And that's so important.
And then we're going to usethose definitions as models-- a
template if you will-- as itrelates to our daily behavior,
(08:37):
the way we agreed to with thoseThree Ground Rules back in
Episode 08.
Owen (08:43):
Yeah, way back in Episode 08.
We're still building on that.
See John, that's why we are a"serial" podcast.
But look, here we go.
Let's answer the first question.
And that question was:"What is anon-Christian?"(Repeats.)
John (09:02):
Well, I think many people ...
*many people...
would say a"non-Christian" is aperson-- this is probably the
default answer-- is someone whodoesn't go to church.
In other words, a person whodoesn't go to a certain place at
a certain time.
Or maybe, a person who wasn'tchristened as a baby.
(09:26):
Or maybe a person who has neveranswered an-- quote--"altar
call"-- end quote-- at the endof a worship service, and h ad
been prayed for by a pastor orpriest.
And of course, that's just a fewof probably maybe the top five
answers.
There a re many, many, manymore.
Owen (09:44):
That's right.
Maybe there are*too manyanswers.
John (09:46):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Owen (09:47):
And those are totally some of the answers that people would
probably give.
But look at this, John.
Here's the mistake.
Those answers that people couldgive were not*possible for the
Early Christians.
*None of those answers that youjust gave would have been given
by the Early Christians.
Why not?
(10:09):
Because, as we know from all ourprevious episodes: Churches,
church services, pastors, andpriests, didn't*exist in Early
Christianity.
John (10:21):
Yeah, that's right.
And you know, none of thesethings-- wow, think about that--
existed in the First Century.
And those are traditions thatwere started by today's
denominations.
But to the Early Christians--listen to this-- a
"non-Christian" was a person whohad not yet had a*certain
(10:43):
*experience.
Owen (10:44):
Exactly.
And we're going to talk aboutthat*experience.
You know, John, back in Episode09, we laid down sort of a
principle (10:54):
We said that *non-Christians are"natural"
(repeats) people.
And we discussed that at lengthand the Greek meanings of that
word.
But the Early Christians calledthem that because non-Christians
are-- quotes--"naturally"motivated.
Non-Christians are motivated bytheir human"nature." And that's
(11:17):
why they called them"natural"people.
John (11:23):
Yeah.
That's right.
Here's another point, Owen.
I think that's so important.
We can't emphasize it enough.
It's this (11:30):
Non-Christians-- and this is such a significant
statement-- non-Christians onlyhave*one inner motivator.
And as we've discussed over ourdifferent episodes, that may be
a new, or maybe even an unusualway of thinking about it, in
(11:52):
terms of a"motivator." Butthey're*only motivated by their
Selfish Human Natures.
And that's a huge problem forthem.
Owen (12:04):
That*is a huge problem.
You know, remember John, back inEpisode 09.
We talked about the 2,400psychiatrists in San Francisco,
who met there for this bigmeeting.
And they announced to the worldthat-- check this out-- our
Selfish Human Nature is thecause...
(12:28):
our natures are the cause...
of all the trouble in the world.
Look at that.
And so what does that fact meanto non-Christians?
It reminds me of a mother I onceknew who always said that her
children,"Couldn't stay out oftrouble." Well, that's what
happens to non-Christians, I'msorry to report.
"They can't stay out oftrouble."
John (12:51):
Yeah, that's right.
You know, back in Episode 10, wehad a...
actually a*Spiritual GrowthChart for our friends that
showed a"picture" of anon-Christian's motivation.
And that chart, if you recall,was totally*black.
And so let's...
Owen, remind our friends aboutthat chart.
You...
(13:11):
that chart is your idea.
Owen (13:14):
Yeah(chuckles).
Yeah.
Great, great, John.
Thinking it...
to be deathbed honest, it's theHoly Spirit's idea.
But that's another story.
We did discuss that Black Chart,if you want to call it that, at
the end of Episode 10.
And remember, it's also on page89 of the book,*Saving
(13:34):
Christianity.
So, right here in this script--let's see, we're actually about
13 or 14 minutes into the script-- we're going to put it right
here again in the transcript.
So when they pull it up on thewebsite, they can look at it.
But John, as we said, the tragicthing about this particular
(13:56):
chart is that it's completely*black.
And I'm looking at a picture ofit here in the transcript now.
It's completely*black.
Why is it completely black?
It's completely black becausenon-Christian motivation starts
at the bottom-right of the chartwith the Selfish Human Nature--
(14:18):
moves up the chart throughpeople's Minds at the top--
moves back down the other sideto the bottom-left into the
Human Spirit.
And so what that means is...
why it's*black...
is because non-Christians, withthem, the Selfish Human Nature
dominates their*entire(repeats)motivational system.
John (14:43):
Owen, just briefly, I can remember teaching this concept
one time in a classroom setting.
And with some less thanflattering words describing our
Selfish Human Nature.
And one of my students, anadult, was so offended by that,
that they(*sic) literally turnedtheir back to me.
(15:07):
They continued to listen.
But they would not...
it was their(chuckles) pushbackon that.
That they just could not bringthemselves to believe that.
But you say,"How do you guysreally know that?" Well, we
start by looking in the mirrorevery morning.
(Laughter.) And so we understandthat completely.
The only thing motivating anon-Christian is Our Selfish
(15:32):
Nature.
Non-Christians...
and here's the punch line...
non-Christians only have*oneinner motivator.
One.
And what is that?
Well, it's all black.
And that's scary for all of us.
Owen (15:48):
You know, I had to laugh, John.
I had a lady in a class onetime, who got up and walked out
and never came back.
She said because hergrandchildren were so sweet
(laughter) as babies, and socute, and sweet, and gentle,
that there's no possible waythat they were totally negative
(16:11):
in their behavior.
And she dropped out of theclass.
So it is scary to people.
But our friends are strongerthan that out in Podcast Land.
They're hanging on.
Because we said that*selfish*motivator is the cause of all
the world's trouble.
That's what we need to dealwith.
It's the cause of all the crime...
(16:33):
drug abuse...
divorce...
child abuse...
suicides...
and all the other trouble in theworld.
And that's important.
John (16:40):
Yes, it is important.
And the bad news is thatnon-Christians, can't...
that's right...
we*can't control this selfishmotivation.
At least, for not a very longperiod of time.
No matter how hard we try.
We are, as human beings,*naturally selfish.
(17:04):
And Owen, back to your comment amoment ago about the babies.
You know, isn't it interestingthat we never had to teach our
children to do*wrong?
Never.
We had to teach them, as earlyas they can understand, to do
*right! Because it camenaturally to them to do wrong,
(17:26):
to be selfish.
And again, that's why the EarlyChristians called them"natural"
people.
It just makes sense.
Owen (17:34):
And you know, John, that's so true.
Anybody that's raised children,or lived any life at all, knows
that's true.
Yeah, I say in my book, children-- as you say"naturally"-- steal
one another's toys, lie aboutwhether not they've eaten their
spinach, and all those types ofthings.
(Chuckles.) And that just comes*natural to them.
(17:55):
So, John, the most importantthing that you've said so far is
that non-Christians*cannotcontrol their selfishness.
At least not for long.
They*think they control it.
And they*say they control it.
But in real life, they*can't.
John (18:14):
Yeah, it always comes creeping back.
And let's prove that, Owen, witha story of Jesus's original 12
disciples.
You remember, Jesus taught themfor three years.
They lived with Him, and Heshowed them miracles.
They heard all of His teachingfor three years, up close and
personal.
(18:34):
But, was His intense trainingable to help them control their
selfishness?
Owen (18:41):
That's a great question, John.
Because when I was growing up,as a boy in Sunday school and
all those types of things, Inaturally thought that Peter...
and John...
and Andrew...
and Philip...
and all of those original 12apostles that walked with Jesus
were*Spiritual people.
Well, let's find out.
(19:01):
And I think the quickest way todo that-- again we're in Chapter
8 today-- I want to read acouple of things from pages 95
and 96 in the book.
Because it says,"Let's look backat the*behavior of the 12
original disciples that traveledwith Jesus." Number one: The
(19:22):
whole time Jesus was teachingthem, they argued among
themselves about which one ofthem was the*greatest disciple.
And then toward the end of theirtraining period, one of the
disciples made a secret dealwith Jesus's enemies(repeats) to
*betray him, and then actuallyled an armed mob to Jesus's
(19:45):
hiding place to*arrest Him.
Of course, Jesus knew that Hewas about to be betrayed.
So He asked three(repeats) ofHis most trusted disciples to
come and pray with Him for thestrength and courage to face the
ordeal.
But, instead of praying withHim, the three disciples went to
(20:07):
*sleep.
And then(chuckles), when the mobarrived to arrest Jesus, and
they dragged Him to the chiefpriest's home to be
interrogated, one of Jesus'sdisciples followed at a
distance, and lingered in thecourtyard to see what was going
to happen.
Of course, that was Peter.
(20:28):
But when some of the priest'sdisciples recognized him, and
accused him of being a disciple,what did he do?
He swore, cursed, and said he'dnever even met Jesus.
Finally, John.
Horrible, horrible.
After Jesus was tried, andexecuted, and buried, the
disciples hid behind lockeddoors and wouldn't even go
(20:51):
outside.
Why?
Because they were afraid they'dbe recognized as Jesus's former
disciples.
So, I think let's stop here.
We could keep reading.
There are other examples in thebook.
But here's our surprise fromdocumented history, John.
(21:11):
Think about this now.
There were no Spiritual peopleon planet earth when Jesus
walked here.
*Not even his own disciples*.
Why?
Because there were no Christiansat that time.
Everybody on earth was anon-Christian.
That meant everybody wasselfish.
(21:33):
There were no Spiritual peopleuntil after(repeats) Jesus rose
from the dead and returned toheaven.
John (21:43):
So we've actually answered our first question.
We've defined a"non-Christian"as a person who can't control
his or her selfishness,
Owen (21:56):
Right.
That's actually true.
So we have answered thequestion,"What is a non
Christian?" partially.
Let's flesh it out slightly.
Non-Christians are people whohave only*one inner motivator.
That one inner motivator istheir Selfish Human Nature.
They don't have a motivator forSpiritual growth.
John (22:20):
Right.
You can't access somethingthat's not there.
Owen (22:23):
You can't"sell out of an empty wagon." So they don't have
...
listen, they do not have*supernatural-- there's the key
word-- they do not have*supernatural peace, healing,
and hope, in their lives.
John (22:39):
And that is a terrible problem for millions and
millions of people the worldover.
Bad habits, addictions, conflictin their lives.
In fact, it's everywhere.
And despite our best intentions,we can't do anything about it to
(23:00):
bring really...
bring change...
as you say, Owen, so much: "Change isn't change until there (23:03):
undefined
*is change." So t hey're likeJesus's 12 original disciples.
T hey're living selfish lives.
They may not*want to.
They may*wish it weren't true.
But they can't*stop themselvesfrom doing it.
Owen (23:21):
That's the thing about it, John.
You know, selfishness is sort oflike an addiction.
You know,"You can't eat justone."(Chuckles.) But exactly
right, John.
And that fact...
and the fact is, that Jesus'smost highly trained disciples
could*not be Spiritual.
And so that proves that nonon-Christian anywhere can be
(23:45):
Christian(error)...
uh...
can be*Spiritual.
They don't have the equipmentwithin themselves to be
Spiritual.
John (23:51):
Yeah.
And Owen, I know when we saythat, it seems hopeless for
millions of people.
And in many ways it is.
But, as we've said from thebeginning broadcast here, that
the Good News is that there*is asolution.
Right! We're not just talkingabout the problem.
(24:12):
But there*is a solution.
Non-Christians have the samesolution that Jesus's disciples
had after he returned to heaven.
Man, that is some powerful, GoodNews.
Because that's when thedisciples became the Spiritual
people on earth.
Owen (24:32):
Hot dog! Yeah.
That's exactly right, John.
And so here we are.
We're answering now the secondbig question on our list:"What
is a Christian?" Number twoquestion:"What is a Christian?"
And I think maybe the best wayto answer that John, properly,
(24:53):
would be to tell our friendswhat happened at the very last
meal that Jesus had with hisdisciples.
Because obviously, He knew theycouldn't control their
selfishness.
He frequently lost his temperabout it, and chastised them
about it.
But all the time, He had a plan-- a plan to solve their problem
(25:15):
.
John (25:16):
Um.
Thankfully, yeah.
He understood them completely.
He understands us completely.
And we're talking about what isreferenced in the Bible as"The
Last Supper." And it was at thatmeal that Jesus brought forth a
revelation that He had asolution for the problem of
(25:39):
their selfishness.
Owen (25:40):
Imagine, imagine, what we're saying here.
But sadly, even that...
obviously John, they didn'tunderstand.
Because as we've said so often,Spiritual matters are only
Spiritually understood.
And they weren't Spiritual atthat time.
So they didn't understand thatthis solution that He was
talking about was that He wasgoing-- within the eight next
(26:05):
weeks-- He was going toestablish a new Spiritual
movement on earth.
And that new Spiritual movementwould eventually be known as
"Christianity." But they didn'tunderstand that.
(Chuckles.) They didn't evenunderstand this was their last
meal with Him.
John (26:23):
That's right.
But here we go.
Jesus explained the solution toselfishness.
Isn't that something?
And that solution-- this is whatgets my motor running-- is still
available to all of us today.
So Owen, let's go with the GoodNews.
(26:43):
Let's tell our friends what thatsolution is.
Owen (26:46):
John, it happened as we said at"The Last Supper." And
frankly, it's such a...
Jesus made a statement that isso powerful that for me, at
least, it's hard to read withoutgetting emotional.
But let's try.
He said that after He had leftearth and returned to heaven--
(27:06):
think about it now-- this iswhat He was going to*do up in
heaven.
And this is what he said tothem:"I will ask the Father, and
He will give you another Helperwho will give you a deeper
knowledge of the truth, who willgive you the supernatural
(27:27):
strength you need for everydaylife.
And this other Helper, orComforter, is the Holy Spirit.
He will live*in you.
And He will teach you allthings.
And He will guide you into alltruth."
John (27:51):
So let's think about it in the context and the verbiage
we've been using along the way.
In other words, He was going tosend back to earth, a second
(repeats)*inner*motivator forpeople.
Think about that.
And that motivator would be thesolution to the problem that
(28:14):
humankind has controlling theirselfish behavior.
Owen (28:18):
Absolutely.
See, because once this newmotivator-- who is supernatural,
and who is coming straight fromthe throne room of heaven-- was
inside people, they would thenbecome known as"Christians." And
that tells us that one of the*purposes of Christianity is to
(28:40):
give people the ability to beSpiritual.
And again-- defining our terms--by being"Spiritual," we mean the
ability to overcome pride, lust,bad habits, addictions, and
every form of selfishness.
John (28:58):
That's amazing.
I never get tired of tellingthis story.
So let's continue.
Let's tell our friends whatJesus did next.
Let's tell them how He fulfilled...
how it actually came to be...
this incredible promise for allpeople.
Owen (29:17):
This is so important
that occurred immediately afterthis last meal with the
disciples.
Later that same night, He(Jesus)was arrested.
And within a few hours, He wassentenced to death...
was crucified...
and died...
and was buried.
(29:38):
But-- three days later, He rosefrom the dead, appeared to the
disciples at their hideout intheir locked room, and He gave
them their final instructionsbefore He returned to heaven.
And here's what He said to them: "Don't leave Jerusalem. (29:53):
undefined
Wait here for the promise thatyou heard me tell about.
In a few days, you'll be*baptized in the Holy Spirit.
And you'll receive supernaturalpower when He comes*in you."
John (30:16):
Yes.
Wow.
Amen.
Hallelujah.
And on and on.
Praise be to God.
Jesus was telling them what wasgoing to happen ten days later,
doing during a Jewishwheat-harvest festival that the
people called the"Festival ofPentecost." But the most
(30:39):
important word in Jesus'sinstructions was the word
"baptized." And so it's veryimportant that we define that
Fuzzy Word for our friends.
Owen (30:53):
Um, that's right, John.
That's the key to Christianity.
And it's probably one of themost misunderstood words in
Christianity today.
The word"baptized" in the FirstCentury Greek sense is an
extremely important word.
In fact, it is the key tounderstanding Christianity.
(31:13):
But see, when people hear theword"baptized" today, they think
it's a religious word.
They think it's referring to thewater-baptisms that today's
denominations perform: Christening babies, pouring (31:24):
undefined
water on adults, or immersingpeople in pools of water.
John (31:32):
But, at The Last Supper, Jesus was using the word
"baptize" with its First Centurymeaning.
And that had nothing to do withputting water on people.
Owen (31:45):
(Chuckles.) No, it didn't.
Check this out now.
Let's be very careful here.
To First Century people, theword"baptize" was not-- was not
-- a religious word.
It was an everyday word that allmen, women and children used in
everyday life.
And here's what the word meantto First Century people: It
(32:08):
meant to immerse something in asubstance-- it could be water,
oil, other substances-- and thenlet it soak in that substance
until its makeup was permanently*changed.
For example, when First Centurypeople made pickles(repeats),
they soaked cucumbers in vinegaruntil the cucumbers turned into
(32:33):
pickles.
And then guess what they said.
They said they had now"baptized"the cucumbers.
John (32:41):
So, when Jesus told the disciples that they were going
to be"baptized in the Spirit,"with their ears they understood
the word, of course, in theircontext of the First Century.
They understood that the HolySpirit was going to come down
from heaven, and immerse a partof them until that part of them
(33:05):
was permanently changed.
Is that the way to understand it?
Owen (33:10):
Absolutely.
Just think about that.
But see, then I'm sure ourfriends in Podcast Land are
thinking(chuckles),"Okay, wellwhat part of them was the Holy
Spirit going to immerse?
How was that going to change thedisciples?
When was that going to happen?
And what would the long-termresults?"
John (33:29):
Then these are history-changing questions, to
be sure.
In fact, they are watershedquestions that point us back to
the flowchart that we're using.
We're talking about Circle#3 atthe bottom-left of the chart.
And that's the circle thatrepresents the Human Spirit(or
Soul).
(33:50):
And remember, we said that inits original condition the Human
Spirit is Spiritually"dead." Inother words, it has no ability
to motivate people towardsSpiritual living.
Owen (34:06):
That's true, John.
And there's so much to be saidthere.
We covered all those points inan earlier episode.
But as I'm just listening to youand thinking about it, the
internal spirit, or soul, inpeople is keeping them alive.
That's the life force in humans.
It came from heaven.
It returns to heaven.
John (34:27):
That invisible part of us!
Owen (34:29):
That invisible, immortal part of us.
That's the very part of peoplethat the Holy Spirit indwells
them, and soaks in power to makethem Christians.
That's the part that the HolySpirit-- quote--"baptizes." That
means immerses, and soaks insupernatural power, just as
(34:53):
Jesus promised at The LastSupper.
But, let's slow down just asecond now.
Because we really need toclearly understand what happened
next.
Because what happened next isone...
I believe*is the...
most important day in humanhistory.
(35:13):
Yet, it's a day that most peopledon't know anything about.
It's a day that scientists andhistorians call"The Day of
Pentecost."
John (35:23):
Yeah, and just to remind us, this is a real calendar day
in history.
We need to talk about whathappened on that morning.
It was the annual"Feast ofPentecost." Now, that feast
wasn't unusual.
But something(chuckles)*veryunusual was going to happen on
(35:44):
that day.
Because that day became theBirthday of Christianity.
That's the morning thatChristianity was founded.
Owen (35:55):
Exactly.
A lot of people don't realizethere has not*always been a
Christianity.
(Chuckles.) It was founded thatmorning in the First Century.
But here's what happened.
Jesus had left earth andreturned to heaven just like He
said.
And the disciples obeyed Hiscommand, and they stayed in
Jerusalem, just like He toldthem.
(36:16):
They moved into a house togetherto wait for whatever it was.
Remember, they didn't fullyunderstand whatever it was that
was going to happen to them.
You know, there were 120 packedin that house.
That included the 12 originaldisciples, plus Jesus's mother
and brothers and sisters.
(36:37):
We don't know where His(step-father) was at that point.
We assume Joseph had died.
And there were a hundred more ofJesus's most loyal disciples,
all waiting patiently in thathouse.
John (36:50):
Right.
And the days tick by.
In other words, for 10 days,they did that.
And nothing happened.
Oh, but when it happened, on themorning of the Feast of
Pentecost, the whole world waschanged in just a few minutes,
Owen (37:08):
That's right, John.
The whole world changed in a fewminutes.
And a lot of people don'trealize, most Jewish feasts were
at least a week long.
The Feast of Pentecost was aone-day feast.
Because the people had to getback to the fields and harvest.
So here it was (37:24):
This morning of this one-day feast called
"Pentecost." It was nineo'clock, their time, in the
morning.
The date was May 30th, in theyear 30 AD.
And so there they were, on thisone-day wheat-harvest festival,
waiting patiently.
And by the way, Jerusalem-- andthis is important-- was filled
(37:47):
with thousands of visitors.
Thousands of pilgrims.
And the record states that theywere representing every known
nation on earth.
There were pilgrims from everyknown nation.
And they had come to town forthat*one day to celebrate.
John (38:05):
Yeah.
And then that day, Christianitywas born.
Owen (38:10):
Amen.
Christianity was born.
Here's what happened (38:12):
The disciples had finished
breakfast.
They were sitting in clusterstalking and praying-- as you
said John, they had done for 10days.
And suddenly, now this is 9:00am in the morning.
Clear sky.
Mild day.
Suddenly, they heard the soundof a roaring...
like an approaching tornado.
(38:34):
And that sound came right totheir house.
And they started looking aroundin wonder.
And then they saw what appearedto be fire filling the rooms of
that house.
They(the disciples) were allthrough the house, even on the
upper roof.
And the fire divided itself intosmaller individual flames.
(38:57):
And these little small flames--the Greek word says--"settled
down*in" each disciple.
And their inner spirits weresoaked...
were immersed and soaked insupernatural power.
John (39:15):
And that is...
if you're driving, you may wantto pull over on that one.
(Chuckles.) That is the"baptism." That is the immersion
in Spiritual power that Jesushad promised them at The Last
Supper.
It was now fulfilled.
And that's the"certainexperience" we said earlier that
(39:38):
makes a*Christian.
So this event was the Birthdayof Christianity.
Owen (39:44):
That's right.
And it's never died to this day.
So, this was the"baptism in theHoly Spirit" that Jesus had
promised the disciples at thatlast meal, approximately eight
weeks earlier.
And now the promise had cometrue.
But let's be clear on one point,John.
(40:04):
The part of the disciples thatthe Holy Spirit indwelled and
immersed with power that morningwas their Human Spirits.
A synonym for that inChristianity is their"soul." We
(Christians) talk about"soulsaving." But that's what makes a
Christian.
That immersion, that indwelling,immersion, soaking with power,
(40:29):
is what makes a Christian.
The Holy Spirit indwells people-- non-Christians-- immerses
their souls in power, awakensthose souls to Spiritual life,
and gives those souls theability to do what?
To*resist natural selfishness.
John (40:48):
So now, Owen, we've answered, I think very clearly
and specifically, the questionof how a non-Christian becomes a
Christian.
And we've used Early Christiandefinitions to do it, just as we
promised early on.
Owen (41:07):
Exactly.
And so we've actually*alsoanswered our*third big question
that we mentioned earlier:"Howdoes a non-Christian become a
Christian?" And we now know thatnon-Christians realize-- they
come to some awareness-- thatthey*can't control their own
(41:27):
selfishness.
They get sick and tired of allthe trouble their own
selfishness is causing them.
So what do they simply have todo?
They pray for the very sameexperience the 120 disciples had
on Pentecost morning.
They pray to commit their livesto Jesus-- to Christ-- and to be
(41:48):
indwelled by the Spirit.
Then guess what?
They have a personal Pentecost.
Always.
They always have it.
It never fails.
And that's all there is, really,to becoming a Christian.
John (42:02):
Wow.
And that's just incredible.
And and these facts-- this isthe truth-- also answer another
question.
And it also tells us howChristians are"different" from
non-Christians.
Owen (42:19):
That's very true, John.
Because the fourth question onour list was:"How is a Christian
*different from anon-Christian?"(Repeats.) And
John, let me just stick in athought here.
I don't want to get too lengthy.
But in my book I tell the story-- I believe the name of that
(42:41):
little story is"The Friday(Night) Group"-- and I tell the
story about a small group ofChristian men that used to meet
in my home every Friday night.
And all of these were highlyexperienced Christians.
Several were pastors.
Several had been missionaries.
And so, one night I asked themthat question:"How is a
(43:03):
Christian*different from anon-Christian?" And you know,
they couldn't(chuckles) answerit.
They could not answer it.
That was in my learning period.
I was stunned.
That was years ago.
But there is one specificSpiritual difference between a
Christian and a non-Christian.
And here it is.
John (43:21):
Owen, before you give the definition.
I want to jump in and just saythis.
I really do think that manypeople don't understand that
this is this something thatactually happens*in you.
And they associate Christianity,"Oh, you guys are people who
(43:41):
live and walk by faith." Thatthere somehow isn't a*reality to
it.
Right! And so this definition isso helpful.
Owen (43:52):
Huh.
Well, let's tell our friendsthen.
Here we go.
A Christian is a person who isindwelled by the Holy Spirit,
and has had his or her innerspirit baptized in supernatural
power.
So that he or she now has theability to live a Spiritual
(44:15):
life.
But-- but-- a non-Christian is*not indwelled by the Holy
Spirit, and does*not have theability to live a Spiritual
life.
John (44:29):
And that same definition also answers our*final question
of the episode.
You can see how they're linkedtogether.
And it also tells us what aninfant Christian is.
Owen (44:41):
Exactly, exactly.
So we have answered the fifthand final question without
actually doing it.
Because the purpose of thisepisode was to tell our friends
what an"infant" Christian is.
That's our title of Episode 13,"The Infant Christian." So
question number five.
Last question.
(45:02):
"What is an*infant Christian?"And we know the answer.
And here it is.
"Infant" Christians are newChristians who've been indwelled
by the Holy Spirit, yes.
They've had their inner spiritsbaptized in Spiritual power,
yes.
But, as new Christians-- hang on-- they aren't allowing the
(45:27):
indwelling Holy Spirit tomotivate them.
And that's why the Gallup pollswe've talked about so much show
that today's average Christianis*no more spiritual than a
non-Christian.
It's simply because today'saverage Christian is an"infant"
Christian(chuckles), and theGallup polls are surveying
(45:51):
"infant" Christians!
John (45:53):
Right.
And Owen, we have a chart forthat, showing that, here in the
script, that...
the chart shows us what thatlooks like.
Owen (46:03):
Right.
Right here at about 45 minutesin, we've got that chart.
And this time the chart is notcompletely*black.
The left side of it's*white.
And in that chart, the wholeleft arm up and down the side is
*white.
That's the whole left side thatincludes Circle#3 at the bottom,
(46:24):
the spirit.
And the mind(Circle#2) at thetop-- the human mind at the top
-- is linked.
And so there's a little bit of*white even flowing up into the
mind.
Not totally, but a little bit.
John (46:36):
Owen, I just think about this, just listening, talking
about this, that Barna's surveyor Gallop's polls, and all of
those things.
And I think what saddens me somuch is that one of the
motivators for this entirepodcast is that so many people
don't even know this.
(46:58):
Don't understand it.
And their infancy is...
(it) literally comes from noteven understanding this.
Owen (47:06):
That's right, that's right.
No question about it.
And so, the trouble that happensthere is that these new
Christians, these...
in the First Century theyactually called them"children"
regardless of their age.
And that wasn't a put down.
It was a fact.
(47:26):
Their spirit was now alive andnow ready to motivate: Flow up
in the person's mind, try tomotivate him or her to resist
the flesh.
But the operative word is"trying." Because, and here's
the final point.
This is where today's Christian"crisis" enters the picture.
Because John,*why aren't peoplebeing motivated?
(47:52):
Why*aren't Christians Spiritual?
Because-- here it is-- they'renot being*taught how to be
Spiritually motivated.
They're not being taught whatwe're calling"The Early
Christian Lifestyle" ofSpiritual fruit and Spiritual
gifts in their daily lives.
Today's InstitutionalDenominations*don't teach that.
John (48:16):
And that's so true, and so unfortunate.
And we've said so many times inthese episodes that a lot of
Christians think that as long asthey are"saved"-- is the word.
That apart from that, there'snothing else to be done.
They've bought their"fireinsurance." So when they die
that will take effect.
(48:37):
And they've built their"fireescape." And now all they need
to do is just relax(chuckles)and enjoy life on their terms.
And they believe that,"Well,everything's good for the next
life."
Owen (48:52):
And that's true, John.
I mean, they are safe.
They will go to heaven.
But-- but-- it's*not true inthis respect.
Because, as we've said in theseepisodes.
And this is the biggest lessonthat I've learned in my long
life as a Christian.
One of the*purposes ofChristianity is for Christians
(49:13):
to live"a little bit of heaven"here on earth.
We've been saying that since thefirst episode.
One of the*purposes is toexperience the marvelous Fruit
of the Spirit, and the wonderfulGifts of the Spirit, in everyday
life.
So John, I don't know.
I think maybe we should closethis episode the way we closed
(49:39):
Episode 09, back earlier.
I think we should close with aprayer for our friends.
In Episode 09, we prayed for ourfriends to have the strength and
courage to accept the teachingthat human nature is selfish,
and that we can't control it.
And so, to close this episode,maybe we should pray two things
for our friends (50:02):
First, if they're*not indwelled by the
Holy Spirit and made intoChristians, let's pray that
they'll pray for that experienceimmediately.
And second, if they*are alreadyindwelled, and if they*are
already Christians, let's praythat they'll immediately start
(50:27):
letting the Holy Spirit motivatemore of their everyday behavior.
John (50:34):
Yeah, let's pray for them -- pray for them right now--
that God would cut through allthe misunderstanding and Fuzzy
Words:"And Lord, we ask You tohelp every person listening to
this episode right now to acceptJesus as their Savior.
Give them their own personalPentecost right this minute.
(50:59):
Then help them to start to growSpiritually, and be, and become,
all that God created them to beand to become."
Owen (51:12):
Uh.
Amen.
Thank you, John.
Well, would you believe it?
The big clock on the wall istelling us that it's time to
close.
And this has been anotherincredible episode.
But it's time to go.
John (51:28):
And, I want to remind everyone that this is Episode
13, and that a script andrecording is available on our
website at (51:37):
goSCpod.com.
Owen (51:42):
And for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (51:44):
...
and this is John Shields, alongwith our producer, Shannon Wolf,
saying...
Owen (51:48):
...
May the God of our fathers blessyou, and keep you, and guide
you, and protect you, until wemeet again.
Owen and John (51:59):
Owen and John end the episode.
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