June 8, 2021 • 56 mins
A conversation between Shields, Wolfe, and Allen, the producers of the "Saving Christianity" podcast. The three admit the consequences of living as infant Christians with true stories that are humorous, tragic, and surprising. They confess their own struggles with Spiritual immaturity, and they reveal the true solution to the crisis.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome back.
Welcome to episode 14 in ourbi-weekly series of"Saving
Christianity." We're coming toyou every-other-Tuesday from
(00:23):
Christian Family Online, and I'myour host, John Shields.
And welcome to today's podcast.
Now, this episode is a sequel...
or maybe better said,"Part Two"of the previous episode, Episode
13.
You may remember that it had thetitle:"The Infant Christian."
(00:46):
That's right.
"The Infant Christian." Now,that previous episode was based
on Chapter 8 in the book,*SavingChristianity.
And we've talked(about) hownon-Christians become
Christians.
We said it happens whennon-Christians get tired of all
their*trouble their selfishnessis causing them, and they pray
(01:11):
to give their lives to Jesus.
And that causes them to have a*personal Pentecost* in which
the Holy Spirit indwells themand*baptizes their inner spirits
in supernatural power.
And this awakens their sleepinginner spirits to start
(01:32):
*motivating them, and makes themChristians.
Now they're new Christians.
And they have a*second innermotivator* that can resist their
natural inclinations, theirnatural selfishness.
Now, that second motivator isthe indwelling of the Holy
(01:55):
Spirit.
And if they allow Him to do it,He will produce in them the
Fruit of the Spirit and theGifts of the Spirit.
But, He can only do that if weallow Him to motivate us.
And many Christians*don't dothat.
And therefore, we remain as*infant Christians.
(02:20):
They'll(infant Christians) go toheaven when they die.
But they're not living any partof heaven while here on earth.
And then finally, we said thatthe reason new Christians*don't
allow the Holy Spirit tomotivate them is because today's
Institutional Christianitydoesn't*teach infant Christians
(02:45):
how to live a Spirit-filledlife.
It doesn't teach(them) how tolive the Early Christian
Lifestyle that we're discussingin these episodes.
So, the title of this episodeis:"The Infant Christian
Crisis."(Repeats.) Now today,this is a three-way conversation
(03:12):
between our producer, ShannonWolfe, our co-founder Owen Allen
, and me.
And we're going to talk aboutwhat it feels like to be an
infant Christian...
and the*trouble that today'sdenominations have because a lot
of their members are infants...
and how society is actuallysuffering because of the infant
(03:39):
Christians in it...
and what infant Christians canactually*do to start growing
spiritually.
So we have a lot to talk about.
Let's get started by introducingShannon Wolfe, our producer, and
our co-founder.
Owen Allen.
Hello guys! And welcome to theepisode!
Owen (03:58):
Well, thank you, John! It's good to be here.
Happy to be here.
Shannon (04:02):
Thank you so much for inviting me to do this.
I'm really excited to be in onthis episode-- and definitely an
eye-opening topic.
John (04:11):
Now, Owen, why don't you get us started.
You do the kickoff today, andthen Shannon and I will jump in
with our ideas as we go along.
Owen (04:22):
Okey- dokey.
Well you know, guys, as I thinkabout it, it seems to me that
maybe the best way to start thisconversation is by recognizing
the fact that there*is a crisisin today's Christianity.
Some people may not realizethat.
And that crisis is happening inthree parts, or three ways, you
might call it (04:43):
First, as we've said so many times,*attendance
in the denominations isdeclining rapidly.
You know in the year 2020, many,many...
most, I guess really...
Christian congregations wereshut down by the Covid-19
Pandemic.
And interestingly enough, 20percent of them*never reopened.
(05:05):
So this attendance of thedenominations continues to
plummet.
Secondly, Christianity'sinfluence on society is
declining rapidly.
If you don't believe that, lookout the window.
So things are disintegrating allaround us.
And third, more and morepastors, priests, choir leaders,
(05:30):
musicians, and other members,staff members, employees of the
-- today's Christian--denominations are leaving, and
dropping out for other work.
So,*why is all this happening?
Think about it this way.
Or, I think about it this way.
As you know from a previousepisode, I'm from Florida.
(05:51):
And I've lived through manyhurricanes.
And I think that the Christiancrisis today is like a
"hurricane." Because hurricanes"feed" themselves-- if you want
to call it that-- as they moveacross the surface of the ocean
by drawing heat out of thewater.
In other words, heat is the"fuel" of their destructive
(06:13):
power.
And that's why they die whenthey hit land-- there's no more
heat for them to draw.
And so they"starve" to death,and they just become a rainstorm
.
And so I think the Christiancrisis is also"feeding" itself,
if we could say that, by drawing"fuel" from its environment.
(06:33):
And I think we*know what that"fuel" is that they're drawing
on.
John (06:37):
Yeah, Owen.
I think that"fuel" is what we'vebeen talking about in the last
few episodes.
The"fuel" that the Christiancrisis is"feeding" on is
*Spiritual immaturity*.
And the"fuel" is the fact thattoday's average Christian-- and
it hurts me to say this-- is*nomore Spiritual than a
(07:01):
non-Christian.
You would think that wouldactually be an oxymoron,
wouldn't you?
In other words, we talked aboutit last time.
The unspirituality-- that is,the*unspirituality-- of today's
infant Christians is"fueling"the Christian crisis.
Today's denominations have somany infant Christians among
(07:23):
their members that they're"fueling" their own destruction.
Owen (07:28):
Well, that's correct, John.
And here's a part of the problemthat many people haven't even
thought about.
One reason the crisis is sodestructive is that it's not
*limited to the rank and filemembers of the denominations.
The crisis also includes some ofthe pastors, and priests, and
(07:49):
elders, and choir leaders,musicians, other denominational
leaders-- because a lot of*them(repeats) are infant Christians,
too.
Shannon (08:01):
You know, that's sad.
And you know, I hadn't reallythought about it.
Several years ago, I went to ayouth workers convention.
And one of the statistics thatthey put out there was that the
average lifespan, or ministryspan for, you know, student
ministry-- even, you know, foryouth pastors-- was about four
years.
And a lot, you know, I thinkkicked into that.
(08:24):
And you're thinking,"Well, maybethat's just discouragement from
people that, you know, don'tlike the way they lead student
ministry." Blah, blah, whatever.
But I think a lot of it, youknow, now even with this topic
coming back up, is that there'sthe*Spiritual immaturity*.
We usually think of leaders indenominations as being
Spiritually mature.
(08:44):
But you know, now we're sayingthat they're*not.
Owen (08:48):
Huh(chuckles), sadly Shannon, that's totally true.
I mean, polls prove it.
Many of them are*not.
Many denominational people,regardless of their job title.
I mean it can be bishop, anarchbishop, and whatever the
title could be.
But they're still infantChristians.
(09:08):
And I...
let me just do this.
Let me tell one quick, truestory that proves what we're
driving at.
It's a horrible story.
But I'm going to tell it to ourfriends anyway.
Recently in our community...
in the middle of the afternoon...
one of our local pastors walkedout into the sanctuary...
(09:29):
threw a rope over the balconyrailing...
and hung himself.
He committed suicide.
True story.
And that afternoon, a littlelater, a TV reporter was
interviewing the congregation'schief elder, and asked*why the
pastor did it.
*Why did the pastor commitsuicide?
(09:49):
And here's what the elderanswered.
He said the pastor did itbecause he was-- quote--"human,"
and that he had the same-- quote--"stress" that all other people
have.
So to me, what does that elder'sanswer-- which was published
(10:10):
locally in the newspapers and TVchannels, so that was all told
to the population-- what doesthis elder's answer*tell us
about today's pastors, andpriests, and evangelists, and
other Spiritual leaders?
John (10:29):
Well, you know, it tells us that Christian leaders are
*infants, too.
Just like many of the rank andfile members.
Even this elder was apparentlyblind to himself.
And so, it is definitelysomething that we've said from
the very beginning, from ourEpisode 01 of the podcast.
(10:51):
The reason, what motivates us,*why we are doing this, is the
problem is*real.
It is affecting people's lives.
It's affecting our culture, oursociety, everywhere.
It's really not untouched bythis.
And rather than being part ofthe solution, unfortunately,
(11:15):
specifically related to infancyas Christians, we have become
*part of the problem.
Owen (11:22):
That's exactly right, that's exactly right.
It's a horrible thing to look inthe mirror and say or think,"I'm
part of the problem instead ofpart of the solution." But you
know, the terrible things thathappened in the congregations...
that have happened to me and myfamily.
And you think,"Well, I could getmore blessing out of this." I
(11:45):
remember a Christian was veryangry one time(chuckles), and he
shouted at me,"I can find morelove in the closest bar than I
can in this congregation!" And(chuckles) sadly-- dare I say--
that was probably true in hislife.
John (12:03):
Yeah.
You know, Owen.
I think about it a lot.
All of us, part of the podcasthere, we think about, and talk
about it, read about it, discussit.
And I just look around, and youjust ask yourself,"Why?"*Why is
this?
*Why has that happened?
(12:25):
And*why is it continuing tohappen?
And is there anything we can*doabout it?
To confront that?
And to hopefully change thetrajectory of this?
And we're pouring all of ourenergy into this.
One of the things we're doing,of course, is the podcast, among
other things.
(12:46):
And I was just thinking aboutthe simplicity of this in one
way.
We come back to the FirstCentury, and we just keep going
back there.
To the original blueprint-- tothe original Christians-- and
reading about their life andtheir experiences.
(13:10):
And we see the disconnect.
And we see that all these manyyears, centuries, that pattern
(chuckles) is not beingduplicated.
And that just breaks our heart.
Owen (13:27):
Well, it does.
And you know, I look at us heresitting together with these
microphones.
We sort of represent in someways three generations.
You know, I'm the oldest horsein the barn.
And then John comes along ageneration or so behind me.
And then Shannon, you're comingalong a generation or so behind
(13:49):
John.
So when you think about it,between the three of us, we
cover a great span of(chuckles)time.
And yet, I bet you all three ofus-- if we were interviewed by
that news reporter-- we wouldsay that we've all seen exactly
the*same things.
Exactly the*same tragedies,problems, suicides.
(14:12):
I know three or four pastorspersonally who committed suicide
in my lifetime.
So these...
you have to say,"Hold it.
Time out.
Something's wrong somewhere.
This ain't Christianity!"
Shannon (14:31):
That's an interesting dynamic that you point that out.
Because I hadn't thought aboutthat.
The three of us in that pattern.
So...
but yeah, that's an interestingthought.
John (14:41):
Owen and Shannon, I come back to just a few thoughts
about this:*Why have we gottenit so wrong?
We know that the enemy isopposed to us.
We know that he is the master ofdeception.
But how have we just gotten thisso wrong?
(15:05):
And why has it taken so long forus to...
I know we're not the first onesto ever feel like that we're on
to the*solution to this.
Right, I understand that.
But, for the sake of thispodcast, and the book,*Saving
(15:26):
Christianity, and all of themotivation behind that, maybe
Owen, talk to us a little bitabout that.
Why is that?
Why is there such a disconnect?
Owen (15:37):
Well, you know, John-- and I think Shannon would agree-- in
this last, our last episode,previous episode, number 13, we
talked about all of the troublesthat...
and we talked about the whole*core of the issue was that so
many Christians are*infants.
(15:59):
All right, in management wetaught a principle called
"Linking." You"Cause-Link"backwards.
What caused, what caused, thecause?
And you get back to the*originalcause that we called the"Cue
Ball."(Chuckles.) And so, whatwas the"Cue Ball"?
In other words,*why are so manyChristians infants?
(16:19):
There has to be a reason.
There's an old saying that,"Nothing comes from nothing."
Something*causes everything.
That's a law of physics.
So, what it turns out is, wetalked about the Day of
Pentecost.
We talked about Jesus's promise: "I will go to heaven, and I will (16:34):
undefined
ask the Father, and He will sendyou another Helper, or
Comforter, to indwell you andgive you Spiritual power.
Well, but here's the trick.
That's not*all the Holy Spiritgave us.
(16:54):
The Holy Spirit also gave us a*structure, a*structure for
living together, and relatingtogether as Christians.
And that*structure-- this willsurprise a lot of our friends
who are listening in their carsor their kitchens-- that
*structure was the Small GroupStructure.
(17:18):
Early Christians met in smallgroups of 10, 15, 18 people,
meeting in private homes.
And their meetings were led bythe Holy Spirit.
Not by a pastor.
Not by a priest.
Not by an elder.
But by the Holy Spirit.
(17:39):
And for three centuries thathappened.
That worked that way.
And then, what occurred?
The Emperor Constantine, theRoman emperor, appeared on the
scene and*rebuilt the structure.
That's what he did.
And he created a big group, bigbuilding, big meeting, structure
(18:03):
that we still have today.
And he*outlawed Christian SmallGroups.
And*that was the turning point1,700 years ago.
And we've never, ever changedit.
I'll start with this, John.
We were talking about thepandemic in 2020 and early 2021.
(18:27):
We were talking about the factthat even in those states where
the requirement for a mask hasbeen lifted, many people still
wear it.
And they don't know why.
And they can't explain it.
But they want to wear it.
Well, that's the power of*habits.
(18:49):
That's the power of a new habit.
And so what Constantineestablished has now become a
1,700-year*habit.
And that's hard to turn around.
John (19:07):
Yeah.
You know, Owen, Shannon.
I was talking to someone thisweek, and I used the Covid-19
Pandemic as an illustration.
And I kind of lay that over whatyou just said, Owen.
From Constantine forward these1,700 years, there's a sense in
which people were"vaccinated."And they got, you know, if you
(19:36):
get a vaccination...
I'm not a doctor...
but I think I understand this.
And when you get thevaccination, they give you a
little bit of the cure.
A little bit of the remedy bygiving you the virus itself.
And what that does, by givingyou just a little bit of it, it
(19:57):
keeps you from getting the wholeof it.
And I think that's whathappened.
We've been"vaccinated." We gotjust enough Christianity to keep
us...
right!...
it's just enough of it to keepus from getting the full-blown
Christian experience! And so Ijust was kind of laying that
(20:20):
template over it.
And to me, it's a pretty goodanalogy.
Owen (20:25):
Well, as I think about it, I had to laugh out loud.
(Laughs.) You know, I said,"Vaccinated, inoculated, against
the truth!"(Laughs.) Because youknow what I have found, John, is
many Christians-- and I guessthis is part and parcel of being
an infant Christian-- but manyChristians, if you start talking
(20:47):
them about this subject, aboutsimply what we're saying.
We're talking about QualityControl in a Management sense.
We want better*quality Christianlife and Christian worship.
And...
but they become angry.
They become bitter.
And they say,"You're againstChristianity.
(21:08):
And you're against theInstitution.
And you're against this, that,and the other.
But that's*not true at all.
And you know, it's...
so look at all the people thathave refused to take the
vaccination in 2020 and 2021 forthe Covid-19.
Why would you*not take thevaccination?
(21:29):
But many people, for whateverreasons-- fear, and resentment,
and whatever it all could be,won't take it.
And so, what we've got to findis some way to break through
that sound barrier.
Break through that glassceiling.
And find some way to show thethree of us at this table, and
(21:53):
everybody, everywhere, thatChristianity is a joyful,
exciting experience.
And if it's*not-- if you're notliving daily miracles-- you need
to look in the mirror.
John (22:07):
You know, I was thinking, Owen, I was talking-- maybe this
is just a too simple of anillustration.
But I was talking to a gentlemanthis week.
And he said he went to a localhardware store and bought a...
some yard equipment.
A particular piece that we referto as a"weed-eater." And anyway,
(22:28):
he got home, and after gettinghome with this new product, he
was never able to get it*started.
So he was never able to use itfor the very reason that it was
produced.
It never benefited him.
So what did he do?
Well, he took it back.
(22:49):
He laid it on the counter.
And he said to the guy,"Hey,this doesn't work!" And they
basically said,"Well, you know,what are we going to*do about
that?" And he said,"Well, that'syour decision.
But it doesn't work.
I'm giving it back.
I'm taking it back.
Here it is." And I think becauseof everything that we're talking
(23:10):
about in these episodes, is thatlots of people kind of look at
their Christianity like that.
We went somewhere-- quote--"thechurch." And we got home, and
we've realized, you know,"Thiswon't*start.
This is not doing what themanufacturer, the person who
(23:32):
sold me this, i.e., theminister, said this is the way
it was going to work.
And it's not working.
And in fact, I can't even get it*started."
Owen (23:40):
A nd nowhere to take it back!
John (23:42):
Right! Yeah.
(Laughter.) And so they justsay,"Okay, well you know, they
advertise this..."(Laughter andjokes.)"They advertise this
product.
But I still got a bunch ofweeds!"
Owen (23:53):
And you know, Shannon, I was thinking about you.
You probably remember from thesegment we did on me.
I got my start in the youthministry.
And my biggest and earliestlessons-- on Spirituality and
non-Spirituality, and therelationship between them-- came
(24:14):
in the youth ministry.
And I think you've had a lot ofthat same experience.
But do you find in today'syounger crowd the same kinds of
issues that John and I found inour days of youth ministry?
Shannon (24:31):
I do.
And I appreciate you asking.
I think, you know, in my mind,just in hearing you guys discuss
, you know, our opening.
Even, you know, with pastorJohn.
There's actually a few thingsthat have stuck out to me.
And going along with yourCovid-19 immunity, immunization,
inoculation-- whatever that wordis-- is that I think people
(24:52):
aren't getting the vaccine.
But also, people don't want totap into Christianity.
Or you know, as you're talking,they get home and it's not
working.
And it comes back.
I think there's just a lot of*fear in there of the unknown.
You know,"I've made thiscommitment to Jesus.
But I still like the way thingswere." You know, as one of the
(25:14):
things that you guys discuss alot:"Change isn't change until
there's change." And so, youknow, even going back to that
phrase is that, you know, justthe fear of,"I don't know what
this is." You know, my wife andI were discussing the vaccine.
And you know, whether I shouldget it.
Whether I shouldn't, blah, blah,and all that.
And you know, ultimately thegood outweighs the bad with it.
(25:39):
But one of my fears was that,you know, my blood type.
Would I get Bell's palsy?
Or you know, is there somethingelse that I might would get in a
long-term thing?
And just the fear of thelong-term.
Even discussing it with my mom.
You know, just the fear of thelong-term.
And so I think that's one thingthat can keep us in that
"immature" or in that"infant"stage of...
(26:03):
even if Christianity is...
(inaudible)...
you know, kind of like Peter.
I want to step on the edge ofthe boat.
(Laughter.) But I'm not ready todip my toes in the water.
Or maybe I am just dipping mytoes in the water.
You know, the white-waterrafting term is a"Lily Dipper."(
Laughter.) You're kind of justputting a paddle just a little
bit in the water, instead ofgetting all the way in.
And so I think*that in our mindsticks out.
(26:27):
As far as student ministry, andeven looking at some of our
topics that we were...
you know, that we could possiblydiscuss.
You know, alcoholism, suicide,porn, you know, sex outside of
marriage.
There's just so many things thatcan keep us in that"infancy" if
we allow it to.
And so, yes, to answer yourquestion:"Yes." You know, that's
(26:49):
not just an"adult thing." Imean, that's a student(thing),
that's a child(thing).
I mean, you know, it's...
those aren't*just"adult topics."You know, those are, you know,
topics...
"human" topics.
Exactly.
And so it really does span the...
(27:10):
you know, it's*everyone.
Owen (27:12):
But you know what, Shannon?
You just said something I don'tthink we've ever mentioned on
these episodes.
And I'll say it this way.
I was talking to a man three,four, days ago, sitting at my
kitchen table.
And we were talking about thejoys of Christianity: The
wonderful Fruit of the Spirit,Gifts of the Spirit, living a
(27:35):
little bit of heaven on earth.
We were talking about angels andwonderful things.
And he looked at me a minute andhe said,"You know what?" He
said,"That would scare the deathout of my congregation." And I
just stared at him.
But I knew that was*true.
Because Shannon, one of the mostfrequent things people say to me
(27:59):
is,"Well, I don't know aboutthat now.
I'd be*afraid of that." And youknow, I think so often: I don't
care what version of the Bibleyou look in.
And there are over 400 versions.
You look in Chapter 5 ofGalatians.
You will*not find the Fruit ofthe Spirit listed there
(28:20):
containing the word"fear." Infact, Paul wrote we were*not
given a"spirit of fear." So theHoly Spirit does*not have fear
in Him.
And He doesn't give it to us.
So where does*fear come from?
What a priest I used to knowused to call"Stinky Flesh." It
(28:44):
comes from our human nature.
And so that's the first hurdlewe have to get over.
"They ain't*nothing scary aboutthe Holy Spirit."
John (28:56):
Owen, I'm thinking about this.
I watch a military show(on TV).
And I really, really enjoy it.
I kind of live vicariouslythrough these actors portraying
those in the military.
And one of the things-- it's avery elite team that this show
(29:18):
is made about-- and one of thethings that they, the leader of
that team, says all the time, nomatter what the issue is, no
matter what it is, he says,"Workthe problem.
Work the problem.
Work the problem." In otherwords, we're not going to stop.
We're going to work the problem.
We're not going to take"No" foran answer.
(29:38):
We're going to, we're going to,work the problem, work the
problem.
And so one of the things we'retrying to do through this
podcast, the book, and othermeans, is to"Work the problem."
We're trying to"Work theproblem." We're not going to be
just satisfied and say,"Oh,nothing can be done." And I
think, and I'm not throwingbouquets at ourselves.
(29:59):
But I think we pretty much have,or reached, some conclusions
about the problem, and what theproblem*is.
I just like to add one more.
And maybe we could kind of shiftthe topic a little more towards
some*solutions here.
I think about it in this way.
(30:19):
I think one of the significantfailures, you now, of the Body
of...
within the Body of Christ, theFamily of God, Christianity, the
"church"(*sic), whatever term weuse, particularly related to the
leadership that we call"pastors." Now, I want to
quickly insert there on that (30:39):
I *am currently a practicing
minister.
Okay?
I*pastor a local congregation.
So I'm looking in the mirror asI say this: Is that it's the
Christian experience, notintentionally, but we have not
given people the*whole truth.
(31:03):
Uh, we haven't discussed forthem.
And so they are looking at uskind of as the*expert, if you
will.
And if we are not able to talkto them about the*solution in
the Christian experience...
then they're going to have toscratch and claw and find it out
(31:24):
for themselves.
And people are not doing that.
And so therefore, the problemjust continues to happen over
and over again, century aftercentury.
And you can see our little to noinfluence in our culture, in our
society.
Which is opposite of whathappened in the first century.
(31:47):
They had a huge impact on thesociety and culture and world.
And we talk about it.
How they literally changed thelandscape of the world.
And that's what we want.
We want to come back.
And we've really done people adisservice, right?
We've just turned Christianityinto an"afterlife insurance
(32:09):
policy." And that is so...
there're many, many words Icould think about that.
But it's a tragedy.
And so, rather than just wallowin our frustration over that.
We really are trying to movetowards some solutions.
(32:32):
You've already mentioned one.
And this is something that waslost.
It's the small group experience.
Owen (32:39):
Totally, I'm a Small Group person.
You know, I was thinking too,Shannon(laughs), about this.
About...
(pauses) most of the...
This hurts.
This hurts, John.
But normally, when you talk topastors, and elders, and
priests, and people.
Deacons, and all the people inauthority in the institution.
(33:02):
And you talk about...
or*they talk about.
They get in pulpit on the Lord'sday, and they talk about making
things better.
You know, you've got books onchurch growth, and church
improvement.
All these types of things.
Dozens and dozens of books inthe bookstore.
And what do they all come downto?
(33:24):
"Work harder in what we've*got."In other words, if you're going
to improve:(Then) attend more.
And give more.
And work harder.
And serve on more committees.
And preach longer(chuckles)sermons.
And sing longer songs.
And don't sing four stanzas, nowsing five stanzas.
(33:45):
And push the envelope on whatwe've*got.
And I sometimes say that's liketrying to make a"lead airplane"
fly.
You know, it's not going to getoff the ground, no matter how
hard you push it.
John (34:00):
Yeah, I don't mean to sound negative.
But I just...
I think it's important that weget this.
We're just honest, and real,about...
authentic about this.
And exactly what you're talkingabout is for instance-- somehow,
somewhere along the way, wetransitioned from hymns that are
(34:20):
beautiful, well-written, deepBible-based hymns.
And we came to this conclusion: "Oh, no, no, no. (34:25):
undefined
Let's go modern, morecontemporary, that's going to be
better.
That's gonna work." And then wesaid,"Well, no, we need to do
away with the pews.
And we just need to have chairs.
And we need to do away withstained glass.
And we need to paint our entiresanctuary black." And then we
(34:47):
said,"Well, no, no, we just needa better sound system and smoke
machines.
And we need all kinds offlashing lights...
and all of these sorts ofthings." And then we said,"Well,
no, what we probably need to do,is do away with formal clothing.
Just come in your flip-flops andyour shorts.
(35:10):
Maybe that'll work." And we justsee on and on.
But the proof's in the pudding.
And the fact is(chuckles), yeah.
Nobody's getting any moreSpiritual.
Our influence is notstrengthening.
It's weakening.
And we see back to all of thepolling, that is just so
(35:31):
disturbing, there's nodifference between unbelievers
and believers, which doesn'teven seem possible-- how that
could be.
So literally, clearly, we cansee...
we can...
as you said, Owen.
We just take the*same issue andtweak it, and somehow think it's
(35:53):
going to be better.
If I change the color, if Ichange this, whatever.
Owen (35:57):
But see, I don't want to be hokey.
But I think Shannon will likethis too.
I mean, this is so trite it'snauseating.
What that really is:"Isarranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic."(Laughter and jokes.)
John (36:12):
All the while, it was sinking.
Owen (36:14):
Yeah, water's bubbling up around your knees, and you're
lining them up.
Well, it's sort of funny.
But you know, as the old jokesays,"You have to laugh to keep
from crying." Well, but see,there's a reason.
Everything has a reason.
So you know, we've told thestory...
I don't think I actually toldthis story...
(36:35):
but I tell the story about thedecision I made in my life: That
either Christianity was a hoax,or Christians today are doing
something*wrong.
And after I prayed about it, andthought about it for several
weeks.
(36:55):
I made a decision.
We all have to do that.
"No," Christianity is*real.
And"Yes," we are doing something*wrong.
And I'm going to find out whatit is and fix it.
John (37:09):
Yeah, kind of really give your life to trying to help
people to understand the truth.
And for me, similar Owen.
You know, I knew the Lord interms of*infancy, I guess you
could say.
I remained an infant for...
(37:32):
until, you know, 10, 12, 14years after my initial
conversion.
And after we met, and we beganour discussions, talking about
all of these sorts of things.
And it literally, you know,changed everything, everything.
So I think trying to get thisout to people is just huge for
(37:59):
us.
To help people to understandthat there is*more to the
Christian experience thaninfancy.
And God has so, so much more forus.
Owen (38:14):
He does.
He does.
I'm sure you agree.
Shannon.
Shannon (38:18):
I do.
And I've got...
there's a couple of things thatI think about y'all's
relationship.
And you know the longevity thatyou guys have had.
And you know just hearing PastorJohn describe your relationship
is-- there's two words that cometo mind, of the many words that
belong in that type of a smallgroup setting.
A small group is two people,that's the minimum, you know.
(38:38):
And so, but two words that comein there that, you know, not
only apply to our members andour students or whoever.
But also to our pastors and"church"(*sic) workers is:
Accountability is something thatwe don't like.
But it's something that we need.
And then also the second wordis: Teachability-- is remaining
(39:01):
teachable.
And I don't remember the exactsermon or when it was.
But I do remember that it wasPastor John that said it.
That you know that we've got toremain teachable.
And I'm sure we've read about itmany times.
But that's one thing that I try.
People ask me, you know, a lotof times-- a couple of times a
year, I guess you'd say-- areyou ever going to move into
(39:22):
adult ministry?
(Inaudible, with jokes andlaughter.) And my answer to that
is, you know, right now God isnot leading me into adult
ministry.
To takeover, you know, oranything like that.
Or to start a"church"(*sic) oranything like that.
Because students are teachable.
You know(exclamations) and theadults we-- I'll include myself
in this-- we are not teachable.
(39:43):
And or, we're limited in ourteachability.
And well,"I liked that sermon.
That was a good sermon, Sunday."Well, if it was good, then what
are you doing about it?
You know, what(laughter) am Idoing about it?
You know?
And so I'll stick with studentsbecause they still seem to be
teachable.
And so, you know, even you knowas pastors, we've got to remain
teachable, and including thataccountability.
(40:05):
Uh, and so, you know, I lovethat y'all's relationship has
been that teacher-mentor.
And I consider you guys teachersand mentors of mine, as well.
And again, not that I get itright all the time.
But just one thing that my wifeand I try to talk about with our
kids, just our three, is just toremain teachable.
You've got to always be learningand always be changing.
(40:29):
You can't get stuck in yourways, as you're talking about.
You know, you're stuck into thecarpet and changing this and
changing this-- while you'rechanging the exterior, but
nothing's changing inside.
Owen (40:39):
Excellent.
You know( chuckles), I used toknow a lady used to say, when
she was putting on her makeup,she would say,"Well, I got to
put a little paint on the oldbarn."(Laughter.) And you know,
that's what we do, don't we?
We"paint the barn." But whatabout the animals inside?
You know, and there's...
I love what you said, Shannonabout...
sometimes I'll confess this toJohn.
(41:03):
Sometimes I wish I was back inyouth ministry.
You know, because the greatestchanges that I saw in my life,
and in other people's lives, wasin the incredible, incredible
years I spent in the youthministry.
And I want to say something too,that's so important.
I hadn't planned to say this.
(41:24):
But I will.
I was reading a book about theNavy seals this week.
And this seal that wrote thebook, said something I'd never
thought about those words.
He said,"You know"...
he was talking about histraining as a seal.
But here's what he said.
He said,"You know, one year ofpractical experience is worth a
(41:46):
lifetime of theory."(Repeats.)And that's what I found in the
youth ministry.
We didn't have much(chuckles)theory.
You know, we didn't have longsermons, and long teachings, and
everything.
We just prayed and rejoiced inthe spirit.
(42:09):
And we saw healings and miraclesthat you would not believe.
And here's the kicker, Shannon.
When I graduated to adultministry?
(Makes a sound of contempt.)That's all she wrote.
John (42:24):
Yeah, you know, I would like to...
guys...
I'd like to throw in somethingas an encouragement to people.
Let's go back to my"weed- eater"illustration.
Suppose that when he laid theproduct back on the counter, the
gentleman said,"Well, did youturn the On-and-Off switch?""Oh,
I didn't realize there was one.""Well, did you actually put any
(42:44):
fuel in it?""Oh, you have to dothat?""Oh, wait a minute.
I don't see any string.
You didn't put in any string?""Oh, no.
I didn't know to do that." So,my point of that illustration is
the*product wasn't defective.
The*product was everything itwas supposed to be.
(43:04):
But the*instructions hadn't beenfollowed.
And that's what has happened tous.
So for those of you out therewho've got maybe a bad taste in
your mouth, or maybe you'd say,"The product doesn't work for
me." Um, I want to say to you,it*will work.
It*does work.
And if we'll just go back--which is what we're trying to do
(43:28):
-- is let's go back to theblueprint of the First Century,
and that's an"On-Off" switch.
That's the"fuel" that's the"line." Those are the things
that make the"product" do whatit was designed to do.
And that is (43:43):
To be able to live it out in a very real practical
life-changing experience, a lifeof walking in the Spirit.
And so, don't throw theproverbial baby out with the
bath water.
Don't take your"weed-eater"back.
Okay?
It's...
this is about fixed.
(44:04):
(Jokes.) Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
(Laughter.) Just go back to the"instructions" and it'll work.
What is it?
What is it, Owen, how do you sayit?
"If we do what..."
Owen (44:16):
Yeah, I was going to...
I was waiting on that minute.
Yeah.
It's like our little motto:"Ifwe do what they*did, we will
have what they*had." Because weknow for a fact that they*did
it.
We know for a fact that angelsguided them.
We know for a fact that they hadincredible miracles.
We remember the(chuckles) timePaul(the apostle) was trying to
(44:38):
collect some firewood.
And a snake jumped(chuckles) outof the...
out of the fire(error)...
uh...
a pile of wood and bit him andhung on his...
hung on his hand.
I had that happen to a relativeof mine years ago.
He pulled his hand out, and abig snake was hanging on it.
And so the thing is, though,that snake was*fatal.
And so Paul was now*terminal.
(45:01):
And so all the people on thebeach watched to see him kick
the bucket and topple over.
And he just sang, and went hisway.
And so they learned.
See?
So you say,"Well, yeah, that wasthen, this is now." No, snakes
are the same.
But so is God.
And so is the power of theSpirit.
And so is a little thing that wecall the Gifts of Healings.
(45:24):
What are the Gifts of theSpirit?
(They) can overcome any snake,no matter how big he is.
So the point is, why don't we do*less of what we're doing today,
and*more of what they did then?
Experience! Experience thepower.
John (45:42):
So, I think we've got to be-- we've got to be willing to
first of all acknowledge theproblem.
And looking for the solution.
Looking for the answers.
And then, let's just maybe putit in these terms: Take the
risk! Right?
Take the risk.
And jump in.
And experience it for yourself.
(46:02):
And as we keep talking about...
that is, that is a veryconvincing(thing).
When you experience it.
When it moves off the page andinto your life.
Shannon (46:11):
Bingo!
Owen (46:13):
That's a good way to say it! You know, Shannon, I was in
one of our small groups about aweek ago, and I asked them, I
said,"Now..." I think there were10 or 11 people there that
night.
And I said,"Now, have you everactually prayed, specifically
prayed,'God, give me the Fruitof the Spirit and the Gifts of
(46:38):
the Spirit because I need it!'"And they stared at me like
frightened rabbits! You know?
But I tell the story about thetime in my life...
and I was so clueless that Ididn't even know what*terms to
use.
So, my best friend and I at thattime, we were sitting in a car
in a driveway of my home.
(47:00):
And we both leaned over and putour heads on the dashboard and
prayed.
And here's all we prayed:"Godgive us everything that they had
in the First Century.
Amen." That's all we prayed.
And within three or four days,we were experiencing miracles.
And so I think that's whateverybody needs:"Give me what
(47:23):
they had."
John (47:24):
I'm telling you.
Can you imagine if that catcheson?
Wow.
Yeah.
That's what we're looking for.
And I think it's notable that weneed to say to people that it's
certainly not at a*level(yet)that we believe is possible.
But, in different ways, all ofus are experiencing these things
(47:46):
within our congregation, andsome of the small groups that
are meeting, and testimonies ofthings that God is doing in
people's lives.
And so, this is*real.
This is...
you know, God is the ultimatereality.
And so this is real, this ishappening.
And unfortunately, the Good Newshas been turned into either"no
(48:09):
news," or"bad news." And we'retrying to get it back...
Or"wrong news." Yeah, or wrongnews, yeah...
(we're) trying to get it back tothe Good News that it actually
is.
Owen (48:19):
You know, John, I tell the story in the book about the
young man that called me atbreakfast one morning and said,
"This is urgent.
I've got to come over and askyou a question!"(Chuckles.) So I
said,"Well, I'm eatingbreakfast, but come on.
(Laughter.) And so he rang thedoorbell a few minutes later.
Came in, and sat down in a chairat my breakfast table, and
(48:39):
looked uncomfortable.
And he scratched and he shifted.
And I said,"Well, go ahead.
What is it you have?" And hesaid,"Well..." he said,"What
would you do if you opened themorning paper, and there were
great big headlines.
And they said that a manuscripthad been dug up in the desert,
and it proved without questionthat Christianity was a hoax,
(49:02):
and that Jesus Christ had neverlived.
What would you do?" And I took abite of eggs and said,"I'd
believe it anyway." And hescreamed.
And he said,"What?
What?
You can't do that?
What are you talking about?
You'd do it anyway?
Why, how could that be?" And Isaid because I've*experienced
it.
I said, I've*experienced angels,and Gifts, and the Fruit of the
(49:26):
Spirit, and heaven here onearth.
And I don't care what they putin the paper, or what they dig
up.
I know it's real because I've*experienced it.
And I go back to the(navy) sealagain.
You know (49:38):
Practical experience is worth a lifetime of theory.
And we've been working ontheory.
John (49:48):
Yeah, yeah.
I like, Owen, the old hymn.
You remember it says,"You ask mehow I know He lives?
He lives within my heart." Yeah.
Yeah.
Hallelujah.
Shannon (49:59):
Well, whether you dig anything up, that's what most
books-- you'd just call them"books." False teachings.
That's what they are...
that's the...
he didn't have to dig that up.
They're already writing thatkind of stuff.
So that's a good...
that's a very valid questionthat he asked you.
But it's it's not a past thing.
It's a present day thing,unfortunately.
And so I think, you know,there's also some fear.
We talked about fear earlier.
(50:19):
That fear in moving forward, isthey're also afraid of what God
will*do.
And the miracles, the lifechange, and all of that.
One thing that I try to pray,you know, myself and also we
pray in our, with our, family.
We pray with our students, andeverything is: We pray that, you
(50:42):
know, asking God to help us torepresent Jesus the way He wants
to be represented.
You know, the*active"church"(*sic).
And not the way I feel like thatI've interpreted, you know...
I don't want to represent Jesusthe way*I want to represent
Jesus.
I want to represent Jesus theway He wants me to be the
representative of Him.
(51:03):
And so, you know, I think thatall kind of ties into that as
well-- is that, you know we wantto represent Jesus the way He
wants us to be represented.
Not the way, you know,*I'm doingit.
Or*somebody else is doing it, orwhatever.
And so...
Owen (51:20):
And you know how we do that, Shannon?
We let the Holy Spirit flowthrough us.
What Jesus called, in John 7:38,those"Rivers of Living Water"
that bubble up within us.
Can I tell you, Shannon, onefunny story?
(Chuckles.) You mentioned"fear"again.
And it shows how we don'tunderstand these things.
(51:41):
I've never told this story toyou.
Years and years ago, a famoussurgeon came to me for
counseling.
And he said,"You know, I'm aChristian." But he said,"I just
can't do what you do.
I just can't go all the way withit.
I just can't give my life toit." I said,"Well, why not?" He
said,"Well, actually," he said,"I'm afraid God will send me to
(52:05):
Africa to be a surgicalmissionary." And he said,"I love
my home and my practice here,and I don't want to go." And he
said,"So what do you think aboutthat?" I said,"Well, I tell you
how the answer is." I said,"IfGod*did tell you to go to
Africa, and you*did go." I said,"You would be the*happiest
(52:27):
surgeon in Africa!" And see,that's the point.
We don't trust God.
Don't we think He knows whatwould make us happy?
John (52:35):
Yeah.
I like to think of it like this,Owen.
It's so"I don't want to!"(Laughter.) But, if you're
following the Spirit, He*givesyou"The Want-To."(Laughter.)
Owen (52:44):
Yeah, yeah.
That's exactly, exactly right.
See, you can't out-talk it, orout-think it.
It's too wonderful to be dealtwith.
God's covered...
you know, God's smart when youthink about it.
(Laughter.) And He's coveredevery single corner, and every
single floor, ceiling, and allfour walls.
(53:06):
He's got it fixed.
John (53:07):
Yeah, I read something this week that just really,
really was an inspiration to me.
It was along the lines of*whyare we going to spend forever in
eternity with God?
And the answer was,"It will takeit."(Laughter.) It will take it
for us to ever increase...
ever...
it'll be increasing throughout...
(53:31):
in other words, God couldn't, orwon't, manifest Himself in 10
years, or 10,000 years.
That it'll take forever.
Eternity, ever increasing theglory of God that we will be
experiencing.
The wonder of who He is.
You couldn't confine it to acentury or a millennia.
(53:54):
It's got to be infinite.
And isn't that something tothink about!
Owen (53:59):
We can't think about it.
You know, my wife's father,who's in heaven now, was a
minister.
And she talks about it.
She's told me this story, six oreight(chuckles) times.
She says that he used todescribe"eternity" this way: If
a Sparrow went to the beach andpicked up a grain of sand.
(54:20):
And flew to England and put itdown.
And flew back to America, andgot another grain.
Flew to England and put it down.
And did this until the entirebeach was moved, eternity would
only have just*started.
That's an interesting thought,isn't it?
(54:41):
But imagine, spending that withGod and the angels, and all of
that wonderful power.
John (54:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I can see that, from thebig clock on the wall, that our
time is up for this episode.
And that's one thing aboutheaven.
We won't have to live by theclock.
And this has been one of themost interesting episodes we've
done thus far.
It's just been fun to knock thisaround a little bit.
(55:11):
And thank you so much forjoining us and our friends out
in Podcast Land.
I want to remind you that thisis Episode 14, and the script
and the recording of this arefound on our website.
Remember it's (55:27):
www.goSCpod.com.
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
But for now, this is JohnShields...
this is Shannon Wolfe...
Owen (55:43):
...
and this is Owen Allen saying: May the God of our fathers bless (55:43):
undefined
you, and keep you, and guideyou, and protect you, until we
meet again.
John, Shannon, and Owen (56:06):
John, Shannon, and Owen end the
episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome back.
Welcome to episode 14 in ourbi-weekly series of"Saving
Christianity." We're coming toyou every-other-Tuesday from
(00:23):
Christian Family Online, and I'myour host, John Shields.
And welcome to today's podcast.
Now, this episode is a sequel...
or maybe better said,"Part Two"of the previous episode, Episode
13.
You may remember that it had thetitle:"The Infant Christian."
(00:46):
That's right.
"The Infant Christian." Now,that previous episode was based
on Chapter 8 in the book,*SavingChristianity.
And we've talked(about) hownon-Christians become
Christians.
We said it happens whennon-Christians get tired of all
their*trouble their selfishnessis causing them, and they pray
(01:11):
to give their lives to Jesus.
And that causes them to have a*personal Pentecost* in which
the Holy Spirit indwells themand*baptizes their inner spirits
in supernatural power.
And this awakens their sleepinginner spirits to start
(01:32):
*motivating them, and makes themChristians.
Now they're new Christians.
And they have a*second innermotivator* that can resist their
natural inclinations, theirnatural selfishness.
Now, that second motivator isthe indwelling of the Holy
(01:55):
Spirit.
And if they allow Him to do it,He will produce in them the
Fruit of the Spirit and theGifts of the Spirit.
But, He can only do that if weallow Him to motivate us.
And many Christians*don't dothat.
And therefore, we remain as*infant Christians.
(02:20):
They'll(infant Christians) go toheaven when they die.
But they're not living any partof heaven while here on earth.
And then finally, we said thatthe reason new Christians*don't
allow the Holy Spirit tomotivate them is because today's
Institutional Christianitydoesn't*teach infant Christians
(02:45):
how to live a Spirit-filledlife.
It doesn't teach(them) how tolive the Early Christian
Lifestyle that we're discussingin these episodes.
So, the title of this episodeis:"The Infant Christian
Crisis."(Repeats.) Now today,this is a three-way conversation
(03:12):
between our producer, ShannonWolfe, our co-founder Owen Allen
, and me.
And we're going to talk aboutwhat it feels like to be an
infant Christian...
and the*trouble that today'sdenominations have because a lot
of their members are infants...
and how society is actuallysuffering because of the infant
(03:39):
Christians in it...
and what infant Christians canactually*do to start growing
spiritually.
So we have a lot to talk about.
Let's get started by introducingShannon Wolfe, our producer, and
our co-founder.
Owen Allen.
Hello guys! And welcome to theepisode!
Owen (03:58):
Well, thank you, John! It's good to be here.
Happy to be here.
Shannon (04:02):
Thank you so much for inviting me to do this.
I'm really excited to be in onthis episode-- and definitely an
eye-opening topic.
John (04:11):
Now, Owen, why don't you get us started.
You do the kickoff today, andthen Shannon and I will jump in
with our ideas as we go along.
Owen (04:22):
Okey- dokey.
Well you know, guys, as I thinkabout it, it seems to me that
maybe the best way to start thisconversation is by recognizing
the fact that there*is a crisisin today's Christianity.
Some people may not realizethat.
And that crisis is happening inthree parts, or three ways, you
might call it (04:43):
First, as we've said so many times,*attendance
in the denominations isdeclining rapidly.
You know in the year 2020, many,many...
most, I guess really...
Christian congregations wereshut down by the Covid-19
Pandemic.
And interestingly enough, 20percent of them*never reopened.
(05:05):
So this attendance of thedenominations continues to
plummet.
Secondly, Christianity'sinfluence on society is
declining rapidly.
If you don't believe that, lookout the window.
So things are disintegrating allaround us.
And third, more and morepastors, priests, choir leaders,
(05:30):
musicians, and other members,staff members, employees of the
-- today's Christian--denominations are leaving, and
dropping out for other work.
So,*why is all this happening?
Think about it this way.
Or, I think about it this way.
As you know from a previousepisode, I'm from Florida.
(05:51):
And I've lived through manyhurricanes.
And I think that the Christiancrisis today is like a
"hurricane." Because hurricanes"feed" themselves-- if you want
to call it that-- as they moveacross the surface of the ocean
by drawing heat out of thewater.
In other words, heat is the"fuel" of their destructive
(06:13):
power.
And that's why they die whenthey hit land-- there's no more
heat for them to draw.
And so they"starve" to death,and they just become a rainstorm
.
And so I think the Christiancrisis is also"feeding" itself,
if we could say that, by drawing"fuel" from its environment.
(06:33):
And I think we*know what that"fuel" is that they're drawing
on.
John (06:37):
Yeah, Owen.
I think that"fuel" is what we'vebeen talking about in the last
few episodes.
The"fuel" that the Christiancrisis is"feeding" on is
*Spiritual immaturity*.
And the"fuel" is the fact thattoday's average Christian-- and
it hurts me to say this-- is*nomore Spiritual than a
(07:01):
non-Christian.
You would think that wouldactually be an oxymoron,
wouldn't you?
In other words, we talked aboutit last time.
The unspirituality-- that is,the*unspirituality-- of today's
infant Christians is"fueling"the Christian crisis.
Today's denominations have somany infant Christians among
(07:23):
their members that they're"fueling" their own destruction.
Owen (07:28):
Well, that's correct, John.
And here's a part of the problemthat many people haven't even
thought about.
One reason the crisis is sodestructive is that it's not
*limited to the rank and filemembers of the denominations.
The crisis also includes some ofthe pastors, and priests, and
(07:49):
elders, and choir leaders,musicians, other denominational
leaders-- because a lot of*them(repeats) are infant Christians,
too.
Shannon (08:01):
You know, that's sad.
And you know, I hadn't reallythought about it.
Several years ago, I went to ayouth workers convention.
And one of the statistics thatthey put out there was that the
average lifespan, or ministryspan for, you know, student
ministry-- even, you know, foryouth pastors-- was about four
years.
And a lot, you know, I thinkkicked into that.
(08:24):
And you're thinking,"Well, maybethat's just discouragement from
people that, you know, don'tlike the way they lead student
ministry." Blah, blah, whatever.
But I think a lot of it, youknow, now even with this topic
coming back up, is that there'sthe*Spiritual immaturity*.
We usually think of leaders indenominations as being
Spiritually mature.
(08:44):
But you know, now we're sayingthat they're*not.
Owen (08:48):
Huh(chuckles), sadly Shannon, that's totally true.
I mean, polls prove it.
Many of them are*not.
Many denominational people,regardless of their job title.
I mean it can be bishop, anarchbishop, and whatever the
title could be.
But they're still infantChristians.
(09:08):
And I...
let me just do this.
Let me tell one quick, truestory that proves what we're
driving at.
It's a horrible story.
But I'm going to tell it to ourfriends anyway.
Recently in our community...
in the middle of the afternoon...
one of our local pastors walkedout into the sanctuary...
(09:29):
threw a rope over the balconyrailing...
and hung himself.
He committed suicide.
True story.
And that afternoon, a littlelater, a TV reporter was
interviewing the congregation'schief elder, and asked*why the
pastor did it.
*Why did the pastor commitsuicide?
(09:49):
And here's what the elderanswered.
He said the pastor did itbecause he was-- quote--"human,"
and that he had the same-- quote--"stress" that all other people
have.
So to me, what does that elder'sanswer-- which was published
(10:10):
locally in the newspapers and TVchannels, so that was all told
to the population-- what doesthis elder's answer*tell us
about today's pastors, andpriests, and evangelists, and
other Spiritual leaders?
John (10:29):
Well, you know, it tells us that Christian leaders are
*infants, too.
Just like many of the rank andfile members.
Even this elder was apparentlyblind to himself.
And so, it is definitelysomething that we've said from
the very beginning, from ourEpisode 01 of the podcast.
(10:51):
The reason, what motivates us,*why we are doing this, is the
problem is*real.
It is affecting people's lives.
It's affecting our culture, oursociety, everywhere.
It's really not untouched bythis.
And rather than being part ofthe solution, unfortunately,
(11:15):
specifically related to infancyas Christians, we have become
*part of the problem.
Owen (11:22):
That's exactly right, that's exactly right.
It's a horrible thing to look inthe mirror and say or think,"I'm
part of the problem instead ofpart of the solution." But you
know, the terrible things thathappened in the congregations...
that have happened to me and myfamily.
And you think,"Well, I could getmore blessing out of this." I
(11:45):
remember a Christian was veryangry one time(chuckles), and he
shouted at me,"I can find morelove in the closest bar than I
can in this congregation!" And(chuckles) sadly-- dare I say--
that was probably true in hislife.
John (12:03):
Yeah.
You know, Owen.
I think about it a lot.
All of us, part of the podcasthere, we think about, and talk
about it, read about it, discussit.
And I just look around, and youjust ask yourself,"Why?"*Why is
this?
*Why has that happened?
(12:25):
And*why is it continuing tohappen?
And is there anything we can*doabout it?
To confront that?
And to hopefully change thetrajectory of this?
And we're pouring all of ourenergy into this.
One of the things we're doing,of course, is the podcast, among
other things.
(12:46):
And I was just thinking aboutthe simplicity of this in one
way.
We come back to the FirstCentury, and we just keep going
back there.
To the original blueprint-- tothe original Christians-- and
reading about their life andtheir experiences.
(13:10):
And we see the disconnect.
And we see that all these manyyears, centuries, that pattern
(chuckles) is not beingduplicated.
And that just breaks our heart.
Owen (13:27):
Well, it does.
And you know, I look at us heresitting together with these
microphones.
We sort of represent in someways three generations.
You know, I'm the oldest horsein the barn.
And then John comes along ageneration or so behind me.
And then Shannon, you're comingalong a generation or so behind
(13:49):
John.
So when you think about it,between the three of us, we
cover a great span of(chuckles)time.
And yet, I bet you all three ofus-- if we were interviewed by
that news reporter-- we wouldsay that we've all seen exactly
the*same things.
Exactly the*same tragedies,problems, suicides.
(14:12):
I know three or four pastorspersonally who committed suicide
in my lifetime.
So these...
you have to say,"Hold it.
Time out.
Something's wrong somewhere.
This ain't Christianity!"
Shannon (14:31):
That's an interesting dynamic that you point that out.
Because I hadn't thought aboutthat.
The three of us in that pattern.
So...
but yeah, that's an interestingthought.
John (14:41):
Owen and Shannon, I come back to just a few thoughts
about this:*Why have we gottenit so wrong?
We know that the enemy isopposed to us.
We know that he is the master ofdeception.
But how have we just gotten thisso wrong?
(15:05):
And why has it taken so long forus to...
I know we're not the first onesto ever feel like that we're on
to the*solution to this.
Right, I understand that.
But, for the sake of thispodcast, and the book,*Saving
(15:26):
Christianity, and all of themotivation behind that, maybe
Owen, talk to us a little bitabout that.
Why is that?
Why is there such a disconnect?
Owen (15:37):
Well, you know, John-- and I think Shannon would agree-- in
this last, our last episode,previous episode, number 13, we
talked about all of the troublesthat...
and we talked about the whole*core of the issue was that so
many Christians are*infants.
(15:59):
All right, in management wetaught a principle called
"Linking." You"Cause-Link"backwards.
What caused, what caused, thecause?
And you get back to the*originalcause that we called the"Cue
Ball."(Chuckles.) And so, whatwas the"Cue Ball"?
In other words,*why are so manyChristians infants?
(16:19):
There has to be a reason.
There's an old saying that,"Nothing comes from nothing."
Something*causes everything.
That's a law of physics.
So, what it turns out is, wetalked about the Day of
Pentecost.
We talked about Jesus's promise: "I will go to heaven, and I will (16:34):
undefined
ask the Father, and He will sendyou another Helper, or
Comforter, to indwell you andgive you Spiritual power.
Well, but here's the trick.
That's not*all the Holy Spiritgave us.
(16:54):
The Holy Spirit also gave us a*structure, a*structure for
living together, and relatingtogether as Christians.
And that*structure-- this willsurprise a lot of our friends
who are listening in their carsor their kitchens-- that
*structure was the Small GroupStructure.
(17:18):
Early Christians met in smallgroups of 10, 15, 18 people,
meeting in private homes.
And their meetings were led bythe Holy Spirit.
Not by a pastor.
Not by a priest.
Not by an elder.
But by the Holy Spirit.
(17:39):
And for three centuries thathappened.
That worked that way.
And then, what occurred?
The Emperor Constantine, theRoman emperor, appeared on the
scene and*rebuilt the structure.
That's what he did.
And he created a big group, bigbuilding, big meeting, structure
(18:03):
that we still have today.
And he*outlawed Christian SmallGroups.
And*that was the turning point1,700 years ago.
And we've never, ever changedit.
I'll start with this, John.
We were talking about thepandemic in 2020 and early 2021.
(18:27):
We were talking about the factthat even in those states where
the requirement for a mask hasbeen lifted, many people still
wear it.
And they don't know why.
And they can't explain it.
But they want to wear it.
Well, that's the power of*habits.
(18:49):
That's the power of a new habit.
And so what Constantineestablished has now become a
1,700-year*habit.
And that's hard to turn around.
John (19:07):
Yeah.
You know, Owen, Shannon.
I was talking to someone thisweek, and I used the Covid-19
Pandemic as an illustration.
And I kind of lay that over whatyou just said, Owen.
From Constantine forward these1,700 years, there's a sense in
which people were"vaccinated."And they got, you know, if you
(19:36):
get a vaccination...
I'm not a doctor...
but I think I understand this.
And when you get thevaccination, they give you a
little bit of the cure.
A little bit of the remedy bygiving you the virus itself.
And what that does, by givingyou just a little bit of it, it
(19:57):
keeps you from getting the wholeof it.
And I think that's whathappened.
We've been"vaccinated." We gotjust enough Christianity to keep
us...
right!...
it's just enough of it to keepus from getting the full-blown
Christian experience! And so Ijust was kind of laying that
(20:20):
template over it.
And to me, it's a pretty goodanalogy.
Owen (20:25):
Well, as I think about it, I had to laugh out loud.
(Laughs.) You know, I said,"Vaccinated, inoculated, against
the truth!"(Laughs.) Because youknow what I have found, John, is
many Christians-- and I guessthis is part and parcel of being
an infant Christian-- but manyChristians, if you start talking
(20:47):
them about this subject, aboutsimply what we're saying.
We're talking about QualityControl in a Management sense.
We want better*quality Christianlife and Christian worship.
And...
but they become angry.
They become bitter.
And they say,"You're againstChristianity.
(21:08):
And you're against theInstitution.
And you're against this, that,and the other.
But that's*not true at all.
And you know, it's...
so look at all the people thathave refused to take the
vaccination in 2020 and 2021 forthe Covid-19.
Why would you*not take thevaccination?
(21:29):
But many people, for whateverreasons-- fear, and resentment,
and whatever it all could be,won't take it.
And so, what we've got to findis some way to break through
that sound barrier.
Break through that glassceiling.
And find some way to show thethree of us at this table, and
(21:53):
everybody, everywhere, thatChristianity is a joyful,
exciting experience.
And if it's*not-- if you're notliving daily miracles-- you need
to look in the mirror.
John (22:07):
You know, I was thinking, Owen, I was talking-- maybe this
is just a too simple of anillustration.
But I was talking to a gentlemanthis week.
And he said he went to a localhardware store and bought a...
some yard equipment.
A particular piece that we referto as a"weed-eater." And anyway,
(22:28):
he got home, and after gettinghome with this new product, he
was never able to get it*started.
So he was never able to use itfor the very reason that it was
produced.
It never benefited him.
So what did he do?
Well, he took it back.
(22:49):
He laid it on the counter.
And he said to the guy,"Hey,this doesn't work!" And they
basically said,"Well, you know,what are we going to*do about
that?" And he said,"Well, that'syour decision.
But it doesn't work.
I'm giving it back.
I'm taking it back.
Here it is." And I think becauseof everything that we're talking
(23:10):
about in these episodes, is thatlots of people kind of look at
their Christianity like that.
We went somewhere-- quote--"thechurch." And we got home, and
we've realized, you know,"Thiswon't*start.
This is not doing what themanufacturer, the person who
(23:32):
sold me this, i.e., theminister, said this is the way
it was going to work.
And it's not working.
And in fact, I can't even get it*started."
Owen (23:40):
A nd nowhere to take it back!
John (23:42):
Right! Yeah.
(Laughter.) And so they justsay,"Okay, well you know, they
advertise this..."(Laughter andjokes.)"They advertise this
product.
But I still got a bunch ofweeds!"
Owen (23:53):
And you know, Shannon, I was thinking about you.
You probably remember from thesegment we did on me.
I got my start in the youthministry.
And my biggest and earliestlessons-- on Spirituality and
non-Spirituality, and therelationship between them-- came
(24:14):
in the youth ministry.
And I think you've had a lot ofthat same experience.
But do you find in today'syounger crowd the same kinds of
issues that John and I found inour days of youth ministry?
Shannon (24:31):
I do.
And I appreciate you asking.
I think, you know, in my mind,just in hearing you guys discuss
, you know, our opening.
Even, you know, with pastorJohn.
There's actually a few thingsthat have stuck out to me.
And going along with yourCovid-19 immunity, immunization,
inoculation-- whatever that wordis-- is that I think people
(24:52):
aren't getting the vaccine.
But also, people don't want totap into Christianity.
Or you know, as you're talking,they get home and it's not
working.
And it comes back.
I think there's just a lot of*fear in there of the unknown.
You know,"I've made thiscommitment to Jesus.
But I still like the way thingswere." You know, as one of the
(25:14):
things that you guys discuss alot:"Change isn't change until
there's change." And so, youknow, even going back to that
phrase is that, you know, justthe fear of,"I don't know what
this is." You know, my wife andI were discussing the vaccine.
And you know, whether I shouldget it.
Whether I shouldn't, blah, blah,and all that.
And you know, ultimately thegood outweighs the bad with it.
(25:39):
But one of my fears was that,you know, my blood type.
Would I get Bell's palsy?
Or you know, is there somethingelse that I might would get in a
long-term thing?
And just the fear of thelong-term.
Even discussing it with my mom.
You know, just the fear of thelong-term.
And so I think that's one thingthat can keep us in that
"immature" or in that"infant"stage of...
(26:03):
even if Christianity is...
(inaudible)...
you know, kind of like Peter.
I want to step on the edge ofthe boat.
(Laughter.) But I'm not ready todip my toes in the water.
Or maybe I am just dipping mytoes in the water.
You know, the white-waterrafting term is a"Lily Dipper."(
Laughter.) You're kind of justputting a paddle just a little
bit in the water, instead ofgetting all the way in.
And so I think*that in our mindsticks out.
(26:27):
As far as student ministry, andeven looking at some of our
topics that we were...
you know, that we could possiblydiscuss.
You know, alcoholism, suicide,porn, you know, sex outside of
marriage.
There's just so many things thatcan keep us in that"infancy" if
we allow it to.
And so, yes, to answer yourquestion:"Yes." You know, that's
(26:49):
not just an"adult thing." Imean, that's a student(thing),
that's a child(thing).
I mean, you know, it's...
those aren't*just"adult topics."You know, those are, you know,
topics...
"human" topics.
Exactly.
And so it really does span the...
(27:10):
you know, it's*everyone.
Owen (27:12):
But you know what, Shannon?
You just said something I don'tthink we've ever mentioned on
these episodes.
And I'll say it this way.
I was talking to a man three,four, days ago, sitting at my
kitchen table.
And we were talking about thejoys of Christianity: The
wonderful Fruit of the Spirit,Gifts of the Spirit, living a
(27:35):
little bit of heaven on earth.
We were talking about angels andwonderful things.
And he looked at me a minute andhe said,"You know what?" He
said,"That would scare the deathout of my congregation." And I
just stared at him.
But I knew that was*true.
Because Shannon, one of the mostfrequent things people say to me
(27:59):
is,"Well, I don't know aboutthat now.
I'd be*afraid of that." And youknow, I think so often: I don't
care what version of the Bibleyou look in.
And there are over 400 versions.
You look in Chapter 5 ofGalatians.
You will*not find the Fruit ofthe Spirit listed there
(28:20):
containing the word"fear." Infact, Paul wrote we were*not
given a"spirit of fear." So theHoly Spirit does*not have fear
in Him.
And He doesn't give it to us.
So where does*fear come from?
What a priest I used to knowused to call"Stinky Flesh." It
(28:44):
comes from our human nature.
And so that's the first hurdlewe have to get over.
"They ain't*nothing scary aboutthe Holy Spirit."
John (28:56):
Owen, I'm thinking about this.
I watch a military show(on TV).
And I really, really enjoy it.
I kind of live vicariouslythrough these actors portraying
those in the military.
And one of the things-- it's avery elite team that this show
(29:18):
is made about-- and one of thethings that they, the leader of
that team, says all the time, nomatter what the issue is, no
matter what it is, he says,"Workthe problem.
Work the problem.
Work the problem." In otherwords, we're not going to stop.
We're going to work the problem.
We're not going to take"No" foran answer.
(29:38):
We're going to, we're going to,work the problem, work the
problem.
And so one of the things we'retrying to do through this
podcast, the book, and othermeans, is to"Work the problem."
We're trying to"Work theproblem." We're not going to be
just satisfied and say,"Oh,nothing can be done." And I
think, and I'm not throwingbouquets at ourselves.
(29:59):
But I think we pretty much have,or reached, some conclusions
about the problem, and what theproblem*is.
I just like to add one more.
And maybe we could kind of shiftthe topic a little more towards
some*solutions here.
I think about it in this way.
(30:19):
I think one of the significantfailures, you now, of the Body
of...
within the Body of Christ, theFamily of God, Christianity, the
"church"(*sic), whatever term weuse, particularly related to the
leadership that we call"pastors." Now, I want to
quickly insert there on that (30:39):
I *am currently a practicing
minister.
Okay?
I*pastor a local congregation.
So I'm looking in the mirror asI say this: Is that it's the
Christian experience, notintentionally, but we have not
given people the*whole truth.
(31:03):
Uh, we haven't discussed forthem.
And so they are looking at uskind of as the*expert, if you
will.
And if we are not able to talkto them about the*solution in
the Christian experience...
then they're going to have toscratch and claw and find it out
(31:24):
for themselves.
And people are not doing that.
And so therefore, the problemjust continues to happen over
and over again, century aftercentury.
And you can see our little to noinfluence in our culture, in our
society.
Which is opposite of whathappened in the first century.
(31:47):
They had a huge impact on thesociety and culture and world.
And we talk about it.
How they literally changed thelandscape of the world.
And that's what we want.
We want to come back.
And we've really done people adisservice, right?
We've just turned Christianityinto an"afterlife insurance
(32:09):
policy." And that is so...
there're many, many words Icould think about that.
But it's a tragedy.
And so, rather than just wallowin our frustration over that.
We really are trying to movetowards some solutions.
(32:32):
You've already mentioned one.
And this is something that waslost.
It's the small group experience.
Owen (32:39):
Totally, I'm a Small Group person.
You know, I was thinking too,Shannon(laughs), about this.
About...
(pauses) most of the...
This hurts.
This hurts, John.
But normally, when you talk topastors, and elders, and
priests, and people.
Deacons, and all the people inauthority in the institution.
(33:02):
And you talk about...
or*they talk about.
They get in pulpit on the Lord'sday, and they talk about making
things better.
You know, you've got books onchurch growth, and church
improvement.
All these types of things.
Dozens and dozens of books inthe bookstore.
And what do they all come downto?
(33:24):
"Work harder in what we've*got."In other words, if you're going
to improve:(Then) attend more.
And give more.
And work harder.
And serve on more committees.
And preach longer(chuckles)sermons.
And sing longer songs.
And don't sing four stanzas, nowsing five stanzas.
(33:45):
And push the envelope on whatwe've*got.
And I sometimes say that's liketrying to make a"lead airplane"
fly.
You know, it's not going to getoff the ground, no matter how
hard you push it.
John (34:00):
Yeah, I don't mean to sound negative.
But I just...
I think it's important that weget this.
We're just honest, and real,about...
authentic about this.
And exactly what you're talkingabout is for instance-- somehow,
somewhere along the way, wetransitioned from hymns that are
(34:20):
beautiful, well-written, deepBible-based hymns.
And we came to this conclusion: "Oh, no, no, no. (34:25):
undefined
Let's go modern, morecontemporary, that's going to be
better.
That's gonna work." And then wesaid,"Well, no, we need to do
away with the pews.
And we just need to have chairs.
And we need to do away withstained glass.
And we need to paint our entiresanctuary black." And then we
(34:47):
said,"Well, no, no, we just needa better sound system and smoke
machines.
And we need all kinds offlashing lights...
and all of these sorts ofthings." And then we said,"Well,
no, what we probably need to do,is do away with formal clothing.
Just come in your flip-flops andyour shorts.
(35:10):
Maybe that'll work." And we justsee on and on.
But the proof's in the pudding.
And the fact is(chuckles), yeah.
Nobody's getting any moreSpiritual.
Our influence is notstrengthening.
It's weakening.
And we see back to all of thepolling, that is just so
(35:31):
disturbing, there's nodifference between unbelievers
and believers, which doesn'teven seem possible-- how that
could be.
So literally, clearly, we cansee...
we can...
as you said, Owen.
We just take the*same issue andtweak it, and somehow think it's
(35:53):
going to be better.
If I change the color, if Ichange this, whatever.
Owen (35:57):
But see, I don't want to be hokey.
But I think Shannon will likethis too.
I mean, this is so trite it'snauseating.
What that really is:"Isarranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic."(Laughter and jokes.)
John (36:12):
All the while, it was sinking.
Owen (36:14):
Yeah, water's bubbling up around your knees, and you're
lining them up.
Well, it's sort of funny.
But you know, as the old jokesays,"You have to laugh to keep
from crying." Well, but see,there's a reason.
Everything has a reason.
So you know, we've told thestory...
I don't think I actually toldthis story...
(36:35):
but I tell the story about thedecision I made in my life: That
either Christianity was a hoax,or Christians today are doing
something*wrong.
And after I prayed about it, andthought about it for several
weeks.
(36:55):
I made a decision.
We all have to do that.
"No," Christianity is*real.
And"Yes," we are doing something*wrong.
And I'm going to find out whatit is and fix it.
John (37:09):
Yeah, kind of really give your life to trying to help
people to understand the truth.
And for me, similar Owen.
You know, I knew the Lord interms of*infancy, I guess you
could say.
I remained an infant for...
(37:32):
until, you know, 10, 12, 14years after my initial
conversion.
And after we met, and we beganour discussions, talking about
all of these sorts of things.
And it literally, you know,changed everything, everything.
So I think trying to get thisout to people is just huge for
(37:59):
us.
To help people to understandthat there is*more to the
Christian experience thaninfancy.
And God has so, so much more forus.
Owen (38:14):
He does.
He does.
I'm sure you agree.
Shannon.
Shannon (38:18):
I do.
And I've got...
there's a couple of things thatI think about y'all's
relationship.
And you know the longevity thatyou guys have had.
And you know just hearing PastorJohn describe your relationship
is-- there's two words that cometo mind, of the many words that
belong in that type of a smallgroup setting.
A small group is two people,that's the minimum, you know.
(38:38):
And so, but two words that comein there that, you know, not
only apply to our members andour students or whoever.
But also to our pastors and"church"(*sic) workers is:
Accountability is something thatwe don't like.
But it's something that we need.
And then also the second wordis: Teachability-- is remaining
(39:01):
teachable.
And I don't remember the exactsermon or when it was.
But I do remember that it wasPastor John that said it.
That you know that we've got toremain teachable.
And I'm sure we've read about itmany times.
But that's one thing that I try.
People ask me, you know, a lotof times-- a couple of times a
year, I guess you'd say-- areyou ever going to move into
(39:22):
adult ministry?
(Inaudible, with jokes andlaughter.) And my answer to that
is, you know, right now God isnot leading me into adult
ministry.
To takeover, you know, oranything like that.
Or to start a"church"(*sic) oranything like that.
Because students are teachable.
You know(exclamations) and theadults we-- I'll include myself
in this-- we are not teachable.
(39:43):
And or, we're limited in ourteachability.
And well,"I liked that sermon.
That was a good sermon, Sunday."Well, if it was good, then what
are you doing about it?
You know, what(laughter) am Idoing about it?
You know?
And so I'll stick with studentsbecause they still seem to be
teachable.
And so, you know, even you knowas pastors, we've got to remain
teachable, and including thataccountability.
(40:05):
Uh, and so, you know, I lovethat y'all's relationship has
been that teacher-mentor.
And I consider you guys teachersand mentors of mine, as well.
And again, not that I get itright all the time.
But just one thing that my wifeand I try to talk about with our
kids, just our three, is just toremain teachable.
You've got to always be learningand always be changing.
(40:29):
You can't get stuck in yourways, as you're talking about.
You know, you're stuck into thecarpet and changing this and
changing this-- while you'rechanging the exterior, but
nothing's changing inside.
Owen (40:39):
Excellent.
You know( chuckles), I used toknow a lady used to say, when
she was putting on her makeup,she would say,"Well, I got to
put a little paint on the oldbarn."(Laughter.) And you know,
that's what we do, don't we?
We"paint the barn." But whatabout the animals inside?
You know, and there's...
I love what you said, Shannonabout...
sometimes I'll confess this toJohn.
(41:03):
Sometimes I wish I was back inyouth ministry.
You know, because the greatestchanges that I saw in my life,
and in other people's lives, wasin the incredible, incredible
years I spent in the youthministry.
And I want to say something too,that's so important.
I hadn't planned to say this.
(41:24):
But I will.
I was reading a book about theNavy seals this week.
And this seal that wrote thebook, said something I'd never
thought about those words.
He said,"You know"...
he was talking about histraining as a seal.
But here's what he said.
He said,"You know, one year ofpractical experience is worth a
(41:46):
lifetime of theory."(Repeats.)And that's what I found in the
youth ministry.
We didn't have much(chuckles)theory.
You know, we didn't have longsermons, and long teachings, and
everything.
We just prayed and rejoiced inthe spirit.
(42:09):
And we saw healings and miraclesthat you would not believe.
And here's the kicker, Shannon.
When I graduated to adultministry?
(Makes a sound of contempt.)That's all she wrote.
John (42:24):
Yeah, you know, I would like to...
guys...
I'd like to throw in somethingas an encouragement to people.
Let's go back to my"weed- eater"illustration.
Suppose that when he laid theproduct back on the counter, the
gentleman said,"Well, did youturn the On-and-Off switch?""Oh,
I didn't realize there was one.""Well, did you actually put any
(42:44):
fuel in it?""Oh, you have to dothat?""Oh, wait a minute.
I don't see any string.
You didn't put in any string?""Oh, no.
I didn't know to do that." So,my point of that illustration is
the*product wasn't defective.
The*product was everything itwas supposed to be.
(43:04):
But the*instructions hadn't beenfollowed.
And that's what has happened tous.
So for those of you out therewho've got maybe a bad taste in
your mouth, or maybe you'd say,"The product doesn't work for
me." Um, I want to say to you,it*will work.
It*does work.
And if we'll just go back--which is what we're trying to do
(43:28):
-- is let's go back to theblueprint of the First Century,
and that's an"On-Off" switch.
That's the"fuel" that's the"line." Those are the things
that make the"product" do whatit was designed to do.
And that is (43:43):
To be able to live it out in a very real practical
life-changing experience, a lifeof walking in the Spirit.
And so, don't throw theproverbial baby out with the
bath water.
Don't take your"weed-eater"back.
Okay?
It's...
this is about fixed.
(44:04):
(Jokes.) Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, yeah.
(Laughter.) Just go back to the"instructions" and it'll work.
What is it?
What is it, Owen, how do you sayit?
"If we do what..."
Owen (44:16):
Yeah, I was going to...
I was waiting on that minute.
Yeah.
It's like our little motto:"Ifwe do what they*did, we will
have what they*had." Because weknow for a fact that they*did
it.
We know for a fact that angelsguided them.
We know for a fact that they hadincredible miracles.
We remember the(chuckles) timePaul(the apostle) was trying to
(44:38):
collect some firewood.
And a snake jumped(chuckles) outof the...
out of the fire(error)...
uh...
a pile of wood and bit him andhung on his...
hung on his hand.
I had that happen to a relativeof mine years ago.
He pulled his hand out, and abig snake was hanging on it.
And so the thing is, though,that snake was*fatal.
And so Paul was now*terminal.
(45:01):
And so all the people on thebeach watched to see him kick
the bucket and topple over.
And he just sang, and went hisway.
And so they learned.
See?
So you say,"Well, yeah, that wasthen, this is now." No, snakes
are the same.
But so is God.
And so is the power of theSpirit.
And so is a little thing that wecall the Gifts of Healings.
(45:24):
What are the Gifts of theSpirit?
(They) can overcome any snake,no matter how big he is.
So the point is, why don't we do*less of what we're doing today,
and*more of what they did then?
Experience! Experience thepower.
John (45:42):
So, I think we've got to be-- we've got to be willing to
first of all acknowledge theproblem.
And looking for the solution.
Looking for the answers.
And then, let's just maybe putit in these terms: Take the
risk! Right?
Take the risk.
And jump in.
And experience it for yourself.
(46:02):
And as we keep talking about...
that is, that is a veryconvincing(thing).
When you experience it.
When it moves off the page andinto your life.
Shannon (46:11):
Bingo!
Owen (46:13):
That's a good way to say it! You know, Shannon, I was in
one of our small groups about aweek ago, and I asked them, I
said,"Now..." I think there were10 or 11 people there that
night.
And I said,"Now, have you everactually prayed, specifically
prayed,'God, give me the Fruitof the Spirit and the Gifts of
(46:38):
the Spirit because I need it!'"And they stared at me like
frightened rabbits! You know?
But I tell the story about thetime in my life...
and I was so clueless that Ididn't even know what*terms to
use.
So, my best friend and I at thattime, we were sitting in a car
in a driveway of my home.
(47:00):
And we both leaned over and putour heads on the dashboard and
prayed.
And here's all we prayed:"Godgive us everything that they had
in the First Century.
Amen." That's all we prayed.
And within three or four days,we were experiencing miracles.
And so I think that's whateverybody needs:"Give me what
(47:23):
they had."
John (47:24):
I'm telling you.
Can you imagine if that catcheson?
Wow.
Yeah.
That's what we're looking for.
And I think it's notable that weneed to say to people that it's
certainly not at a*level(yet)that we believe is possible.
But, in different ways, all ofus are experiencing these things
(47:46):
within our congregation, andsome of the small groups that
are meeting, and testimonies ofthings that God is doing in
people's lives.
And so, this is*real.
This is...
you know, God is the ultimatereality.
And so this is real, this ishappening.
And unfortunately, the Good Newshas been turned into either"no
(48:09):
news," or"bad news." And we'retrying to get it back...
Or"wrong news." Yeah, or wrongnews, yeah...
(we're) trying to get it back tothe Good News that it actually
is.
Owen (48:19):
You know, John, I tell the story in the book about the
young man that called me atbreakfast one morning and said,
"This is urgent.
I've got to come over and askyou a question!"(Chuckles.) So I
said,"Well, I'm eatingbreakfast, but come on.
(Laughter.) And so he rang thedoorbell a few minutes later.
Came in, and sat down in a chairat my breakfast table, and
(48:39):
looked uncomfortable.
And he scratched and he shifted.
And I said,"Well, go ahead.
What is it you have?" And hesaid,"Well..." he said,"What
would you do if you opened themorning paper, and there were
great big headlines.
And they said that a manuscripthad been dug up in the desert,
and it proved without questionthat Christianity was a hoax,
(49:02):
and that Jesus Christ had neverlived.
What would you do?" And I took abite of eggs and said,"I'd
believe it anyway." And hescreamed.
And he said,"What?
What?
You can't do that?
What are you talking about?
You'd do it anyway?
Why, how could that be?" And Isaid because I've*experienced
it.
I said, I've*experienced angels,and Gifts, and the Fruit of the
(49:26):
Spirit, and heaven here onearth.
And I don't care what they putin the paper, or what they dig
up.
I know it's real because I've*experienced it.
And I go back to the(navy) sealagain.
You know (49:38):
Practical experience is worth a lifetime of theory.
And we've been working ontheory.
John (49:48):
Yeah, yeah.
I like, Owen, the old hymn.
You remember it says,"You ask mehow I know He lives?
He lives within my heart." Yeah.
Yeah.
Hallelujah.
Shannon (49:59):
Well, whether you dig anything up, that's what most
books-- you'd just call them"books." False teachings.
That's what they are...
that's the...
he didn't have to dig that up.
They're already writing thatkind of stuff.
So that's a good...
that's a very valid questionthat he asked you.
But it's it's not a past thing.
It's a present day thing,unfortunately.
And so I think, you know,there's also some fear.
We talked about fear earlier.
(50:19):
That fear in moving forward, isthey're also afraid of what God
will*do.
And the miracles, the lifechange, and all of that.
One thing that I try to pray,you know, myself and also we
pray in our, with our, family.
We pray with our students, andeverything is: We pray that, you
(50:42):
know, asking God to help us torepresent Jesus the way He wants
to be represented.
You know, the*active"church"(*sic).
And not the way I feel like thatI've interpreted, you know...
I don't want to represent Jesusthe way*I want to represent
Jesus.
I want to represent Jesus theway He wants me to be the
representative of Him.
(51:03):
And so, you know, I think thatall kind of ties into that as
well-- is that, you know we wantto represent Jesus the way He
wants us to be represented.
Not the way, you know,*I'm doingit.
Or*somebody else is doing it, orwhatever.
And so...
Owen (51:20):
And you know how we do that, Shannon?
We let the Holy Spirit flowthrough us.
What Jesus called, in John 7:38,those"Rivers of Living Water"
that bubble up within us.
Can I tell you, Shannon, onefunny story?
(Chuckles.) You mentioned"fear"again.
And it shows how we don'tunderstand these things.
(51:41):
I've never told this story toyou.
Years and years ago, a famoussurgeon came to me for
counseling.
And he said,"You know, I'm aChristian." But he said,"I just
can't do what you do.
I just can't go all the way withit.
I just can't give my life toit." I said,"Well, why not?" He
said,"Well, actually," he said,"I'm afraid God will send me to
(52:05):
Africa to be a surgicalmissionary." And he said,"I love
my home and my practice here,and I don't want to go." And he
said,"So what do you think aboutthat?" I said,"Well, I tell you
how the answer is." I said,"IfGod*did tell you to go to
Africa, and you*did go." I said,"You would be the*happiest
(52:27):
surgeon in Africa!" And see,that's the point.
We don't trust God.
Don't we think He knows whatwould make us happy?
John (52:35):
Yeah.
I like to think of it like this,Owen.
It's so"I don't want to!"(Laughter.) But, if you're
following the Spirit, He*givesyou"The Want-To."(Laughter.)
Owen (52:44):
Yeah, yeah.
That's exactly, exactly right.
See, you can't out-talk it, orout-think it.
It's too wonderful to be dealtwith.
God's covered...
you know, God's smart when youthink about it.
(Laughter.) And He's coveredevery single corner, and every
single floor, ceiling, and allfour walls.
(53:06):
He's got it fixed.
John (53:07):
Yeah, I read something this week that just really,
really was an inspiration to me.
It was along the lines of*whyare we going to spend forever in
eternity with God?
And the answer was,"It will takeit."(Laughter.) It will take it
for us to ever increase...
ever...
it'll be increasing throughout...
(53:31):
in other words, God couldn't, orwon't, manifest Himself in 10
years, or 10,000 years.
That it'll take forever.
Eternity, ever increasing theglory of God that we will be
experiencing.
The wonder of who He is.
You couldn't confine it to acentury or a millennia.
(53:54):
It's got to be infinite.
And isn't that something tothink about!
Owen (53:59):
We can't think about it.
You know, my wife's father,who's in heaven now, was a
minister.
And she talks about it.
She's told me this story, six oreight(chuckles) times.
She says that he used todescribe"eternity" this way: If
a Sparrow went to the beach andpicked up a grain of sand.
(54:20):
And flew to England and put itdown.
And flew back to America, andgot another grain.
Flew to England and put it down.
And did this until the entirebeach was moved, eternity would
only have just*started.
That's an interesting thought,isn't it?
(54:41):
But imagine, spending that withGod and the angels, and all of
that wonderful power.
John (54:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I can see that, from thebig clock on the wall, that our
time is up for this episode.
And that's one thing aboutheaven.
We won't have to live by theclock.
And this has been one of themost interesting episodes we've
done thus far.
It's just been fun to knock thisaround a little bit.
(55:11):
And thank you so much forjoining us and our friends out
in Podcast Land.
I want to remind you that thisis Episode 14, and the script
and the recording of this arefound on our website.
Remember it's (55:27):
www.goSCpod.com.
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
But for now, this is JohnShields...
this is Shannon Wolfe...
Owen (55:43):
...
and this is Owen Allen saying: May the God of our fathers bless (55:43):
undefined
you, and keep you, and guideyou, and protect you, until we
meet again.
John, Shannon, and Owen (56:06):
John, Shannon, and Owen end the
episode.
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