July 6, 2021 • 52 mins
A fascinating probe by Shields and Allen, co-hosts of the podcast, into the controversial subject of "Spirit-filling." Spirit-filling is one of the most important Christian experiences. But what is it? How does it happen? Why don't more Christians experience it? The co-hosts offer answers to all these questions and more.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome to Episode16, in our bi-weekly series of
the"Saving Christianity"podcast.
(00:22):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian Family Online, and I'myour host, John Shields.
You may remember in the previousepisode-- Episode 15-- we talked
about"The Growing Christian,"and about how the mark and the
sign of Christians in the FirstCentury was that they were
(00:42):
growing Spiritually by being*Spirit-filled*.
We said that the problem todayis that Spirit-filling isn't
*taught by many Christiandenominations in our century,
the way it was in the FirstCentury.
And as a result, polls show thattoday's average Christian is*no
(01:03):
more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
And every time I read, or saythat, it's shocking to me.
Now, before continuing, let'srepeat: The reason Gallup polls
show that the average Christianis*no more Spiritual than a
non-Christian is because today'saverage Christian is an*infant.
(01:27):
And"infant" Christians arecalled*infants because they're
*not Spirit-filled.
So, here we are in episode 16.
And the title of this episodeis:"The Spirit-Filling Crisis."
(Repeats.) In this episode, ourco- hos t, Owen Allen, and I,
(01:54):
we're going to discuss the wholeissue of Christians*not being
Spirit-filled.
What problems is that causingChristians?
What problems is that causingthe denominations?
What problems is it causingsociety?
And, that glaring questionthat's on all o ur minds:*How
(02:18):
can more Christians beSpirit-filled*?
So, let's get right into it, bybringing in our co-host, O wen
Allen.
Welcome to Episode 16, Owen!
Owen (02:30):
Yo, John-- hello!-- And to all of our friends out there and
their kitchens, cars, gyms,wherever they are at the moment.
You know, John, we've been usingthis word"crisis" in several of
our episodes.
And we talk about thatChristianity is in a"crisis,"
and*yada yada*.
So maybe we ought to o bey ourown rules, and slow down long
(02:53):
enough to*define the word,"crisis."
John (02:56):
Yeah, I totally agree, Owen.
And as we've said so often inthese episodes: One of the
biggest weaknesses in today'sChristianity is that most
Christians don't know themeanings of many of the key
Christian words.
Owen (03:12):
That's right, that's right, John.
So, according to the dictionary,a"crisis" is a critical point...
or a decision point...
or a turning point...
in any particular situation.
And that's exactly whatChristians face today.
(03:33):
As some of our friends out inPodcast Land l istening to this
episode this very minute: They're at a crisis point, a (03:37):
undefined
decision point, a turning pointin*Spiritual growth*.
And I guess th e c risis, if Icould look at it in sort of a
strange way, they're askingthemselves,*How long am I going
(03:58):
to continue living as an in fantC hristian*?
John (04:02):
Or, to say that in reverse
start growing Spiritually bypraying constantly to be
Spirit-filled, so that they canexperience"*a little bit of
heaven while still here onearth*"?
Owen (04:18):
That's right, that's right.
*A little bit of heaven here onearth*.
And you know, I think that'sprobably the biggest crisis in
many Christian's lives at themoment.
I won't say*every Christian.
But probably, as I use the term"to be deathbed honest,"(it is
for) many Christians.
But the strange thing is thatI've found, John-- and it was
(04:41):
true of me personally-- manyChristians today don't even know
they*have a crisis.
I don't know if you've evernoticed that.
But I have.
And as I said, it was a true inmy own life.
Have you ever...
why do you think that is?
John (04:57):
Huh.
Owen, you know, we've talkedabout,"You don't know what you
don't know." And I really think,you know, a big piece of this
puzzle is, is that people reallydon't even know there's
something beyond, somethingthat's expected(of them).
(05:17):
That's supposed to be just the*supernatural next step, if you
will.
That we are supposed toSpiritually grow.
And that they don't...
You know, just-- quote--"beingsaved" has just been put out
there for so long that a lot ofpeople-- I'm like you, I won't
(05:42):
say necessarily*most, I don'tknow what percentage-- are just
...
think that's the sum andsubstance of what it means to be
a*Christian.
That I'm"saved"-- quote-- whichtranslates,"When I die, I'm
going to go to heaven." And youknow, your Birth Date and your
(06:07):
Death Date, it's own yourtombstone.
And nobody wants to talk aboutthe little*dash in the middle.
And what*that is supposed torepresent.
And we're making the case onthis podcast that the*dash in
between, that is supposed to beSpiritual growth.
(06:32):
It's supposed to be Spiritualgrowth-- being, and becoming,
living, experiencing,Christianity.
Owen (06:43):
Yeah.
It's what we, I guess, it's whatwe're taught that it is.
You know, I've told the storymany times about the fact that I
became a Christian when I was11.
My whole family was very active.
Later my brother and I bothbecame pastors.
But I had never heard the term"Spiritual growth," or the term
(07:08):
"Spirit-filling" until I was inmy 30s.
Yet I was very active my wholelife in two major denominations.
One my parents were in, and thenwhen I was a teenager, we
changed to a second one.
But we were always active.
And I guess you think, John,that as long as you go 2, 3, 4
(07:33):
times a month, and attend theformal services, that's all
there is.
And yet, and*yet, the surveysshow, and we've mentioned this
in previous episodes, that todaythe average Christian service--
according to the pollsters,people who are interviewed, that
(07:55):
type of thing, research formerlydone-- most people will say that
the services they go to areirrelevant, and boring, and
hypocritical.
One survey, I remember readingsome years ago, half of the
people who attended left*moredepressed than they were when
(08:17):
they*went.
And yet, and*yet, we dress upand go and sit there, and we
think*that's"Christianity." Imean that's scary.
John (08:28):
Yeah, and I...
you've heard me say it before,Owen.
A lot of people, again,associate"Christianity" with a
place and a time.
You know, and a day.
It's Sunday.
It's at 11.
And it's at First and Third, orwhatever, you know, Street.
And that's it.
It's a place and the time.
And it's really nothing morethan that.
(08:50):
And I'm just like you.
I was raised, and what I knew todo was read my Bible, pray, and
make sure I attended services.
Yeah, tithe, yeah.
But nothing about Spiritualgrowth.
Not to mention that it wasnecessary.
(09:12):
Or how that happened.
Or what the results of thatwould be.
And I want to just throw inhere, Owen, and I think just as
kind of a foundational to whatwe're talking about here, is: We
always hear about"The GreatCommission"...
"The Great Commission"...
in Matthew 28(Matthew 28:16-20)...
(09:32):
Jesus's Final Words.
And we want to be"GreatCommission Christians,"*et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera*.
But then you have to step backfrom that.
And that has been one of themost, I believe, misused and
abused verses of Scripture inthe entire New Testament.
And it's created a lot of theproblems that we are addressing
(09:57):
here in our"Saving Christianity"podcast.
And that is (10:00):
It's been interpreted as,"Go and get
people saved." Or,"Go and makepeople infants, infant
Christians,"(laughter) and justleave them.
As you know, nothing about...
and Jesus didn't say that! Hesaid,"Make*disciples(inaudible)
to obey, and t o.
.
.
(10:21):
and s o there's just been a tragi c misrepresentation of this.
And o f co urse we see theevidence of that everywhere.
Owen (10:36):
Yeah, oh, wow.
You know, John, there's awonderful story, I can't
remember if I've told it yet inthese episodes.
But it's true.
It was told to me by a pastorsome years ago.
They had a little exercise orcontest in the Sunday school
room with the little children.
I don't remember their ages, butvery young children.
(10:58):
And they said, Draw us..." Theygave them paper and pencils and
stuff.
And they said,"Draw a picture ofwhat Sunday and the service
means to you." And so they did.
The children did.
And all the children showedtheir pictures.
And so the pastor was supposedto pick the best picture.
(11:18):
So he looked at one and he saidto the child, he said,"Well,
this looks like a fur coat.
Did you draw a picture of a*furcoat*?" The child said,"Uh-huh."
And the pastor said,"Well, butyou were supposed to draw a
picture of what the Lord's DayServices mean." And the child
said,"Yes, I did." And thepastor said,"Well, what are you
(11:41):
talking about?
This is a fur coat?
How does that relate?" And thechild said,"Well, the Sunday
Services are something I put on,on Sunday morning, and take off
Sunday night."(Yeahs andChuckles.) And that's really,
for a lot of us, you know, theold joke:"We live for the devil
six days a week, and for God oneday a week." And all these
(12:05):
statements tha t pe ople say.
But you know, John, I think alot of it too, is a question of
*education.
Or the way that Christians tryto*educate one another these
days.
We're goi ng to ta lk about thisin an upcoming episode.
But I call it the"ClassroomModel." It's intellectualism.
(12:29):
You know, we talk"at" people.
But yet, if you read any basicbook on Learning Theory, people
don't learn by sitting andpassively listening.
They learn by*experiencing.
They learn by*doing.
And we made the joke the otherday that it's like if you had a
(12:50):
Flight School for pilots, andthen when you giv e th em their
certificates, after they'dlearned to read a map and do all
the different things.
And you said,"Okay, now go tothe airport and fly a plane."
And of course none of them*could.
They would all crash.
Because they haven't had any*flight training.
And I think that's what we'vegot in Christianity.
(13:11):
We went to ground school.
But we haven't had any flighttraining.
John (13:13):
Yeah, I think of it too, you know, it says in the Bible,
in the Old Testament,"To*tasteand see that the Lord is good."
(Psalm 34:8.) And I kind ofthink of that, Owen, as an
illustration, that if I wenthome this evening, and my wife
said to me," Hey, John, come onover to the dinner table." An d
(13:35):
we sat down, and sh e op enedthe Recipe Book in front of me.
And I'm sitting on the otherside of the table, and she
starts reading this*recipe of awonderful casserole: One cup of
this, and you do two cups ofthat, and you stir it for 10
minutes,*et cetera*.
(13:55):
And I'm sitting over there just,you know, befuddled.
Wondering, you know,"Is thisdinner?" Wel l, I'm...
(inaudible)...
"Well, I' m gon na*t ell you allabout it." And actually,"Here's,
John, here's a*picture.
It's a picture of what thefinished product looks like."
Okay, so we do all that.
(14:19):
And after a while I get up, andI'm starved to death.
Right?
I'm hungry.
I heard all about theingredients.
What it looks like.
What it's supposed to tastelike,*et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera*.
But I never got to see it:"Tasteand see that the Lord is good."
(14:40):
And I really think that that isa pretty adequate experience of
most people, of what they areexperiencing.
They hear the"recipe" read, andwhat it's supposed...
How we're supposed to look,*etcetera*.
(15:02):
But they never exp erience Spirit-filling.
They never taste and see thatthe Lord is good.
Owen (15:11):
Never*seen it.
Don't know anybody that's*doneit.
Including all the people on theplatform.
John (15:16):
But it's a"delicious casserole!"
John and Owen (15:20):
(Inaudible.)
Owen (15:21):
But you know, let's think a second.
Why is it happening that way?
Because it's such a tragedy.
We've said many times that inthe First Century, what we're
calling the"Early ChristianLifestyle"...
we know that...
You mentioned*evangelism aminute go today.
(15:42):
We have the"Love'em and leave'em" process.
Some famous person flies intotown, speaks somewhere in the
ballpark, gives an altar call,two or three thousand people
come forward.
They give them a brochure.
He boards a plane and leaves.
Everybody goes home.
(16:02):
And that's the end of it.
And that's been studied andfound to be basically true.
There's very little long-rangeproduction from these big
crusades.
So, but the question is:*Why isall of that happening?
You know,*why are so few peopleliving it?
And I was talking aboutevangelism there.
(16:25):
Evangelism in the First Century,people were attracted not to a
famous speaker on the platform.
People were attracted to thehusband, the wife, the boy, the
girl, next door...
John (16:37):
To the"Lifestyle"!
Owen (16:38):
...
because of their Spirit-filledbehavior.
And people said,"Ouch.
I want that love, andgentleness, and faithfulness,
that the couple next door has.
What*is that?" That's how itspread.
As well as the gifts and themiracles.
And that was part of it too.
(16:58):
So we don't have*any of thattoday.
We have a lecture.
Why?
John (17:03):
A personality.
You know.
Owen (17:05):
With a lecture.
John (17:06):
Right.
(Laughter.) Personality with alecture, yeah, yeah.
Owen (17:10):
So, but why?
Where...
how did...
where did we go wrong, John?
John (17:14):
Well, uh, you know, Owen.
We talked about this for 25years, and you've written about
it extensively.
And you know, it doesn't matter...
what...
if you're just off a littlepercentage as the time...
you know, if I start off and I'msaying,"Well, I'm just two
(17:35):
degrees off of my flightpattern.
Surely that's not going to makeany difference." Well over time
(chuckles), you're going to windup somewhere you never dreamed
you would wind up.
And I think that's what happenedto Christianity.
Owen (17:51):
Yeah, well you know, like you said John, we've talked
about it so many times.
And it's simply historical*facts.
Nobody disputes it.
The first 300 years of Christianhistory, they had a"Behavioral
Model," if we could call itthat.
A"Lifestyle Model," where theywere empowered and motivated by
(18:17):
the supernatural presence withinthem of the Holy Spirit.
And then of course, in theFourth Century, the Roman
emperor Constantine came topower and just simply reversed
180 degrees everything thatChristians had been doing.
And within 25 years that heruled, he completely reversed
(18:44):
what had been*originalChristianity.
He's the one that built thefirst buildings.
He's the one that passed lawsthat Christian had to attend
them.
He's the one that changed whatthey called"the Lord's Day," to
the new term,"Sun Day," becausehe was a sun worshiper.
(19:08):
He's the one who outlawed smallgroups in private homes.
He's the one that foundedpriests presiding from the
platform.
(Hierarchy!) All the rest of it.
We could go on and on and on.
And of course they resisted.
Christian resisted that.
But after all(chuckles), he wasthe Roman emperor, with th e R
(19:32):
oman army supporting him.
And Roman law supporting him.
And over 25 years, he did infact kill effectively what had
been the*original Christianexperience.
An d t hat was more than"twodegrees"! And we've never
(19:53):
recovered.
And you know, John.
We've talked about this a lot.
People are creatures of habit.
And think about it.
These habits now, of a bigbuilding, with a big crowd, with
a big platform, with a bigspeaker, have been in place now
2000-- right at 2000-- years.
(20:14):
How are we going to turn thataround?
John (20:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I think about, you know, now inthis modern time, there's not...
We don't have a frame ofreference.
It's just, even in my kid'shistory, and kids that are a
little bit older than them, intheir twenties.
(20:40):
You know, to some of theillustrations I use, their eyes
cross.
They don't even have a frame ofreference.
If you talk about going to thelibrary, and putting out 20
books on a table, and you'reusing a pencil and paper and
taking notes.
And all they know is a laptop,an iPad, and Google.
(21:03):
And you just ask Google.
I mean, you just type it in, andinstantly with Wikipedia, and
you get your answers toeverything.
And so, they live in all they'veever known, really.
And so we've got now generationafter generation of Christians
(21:25):
who are...
It's just being literally passedon from one generation to the
next.
And so that's why we are sopassionate about,"Okay, let's
jump back to the*original.
Let's go back to the FirstCentury.
Something is clearly notworking." And it's not on*God
(21:47):
that it's not working.
It's on us.
So we need to get to the root ofthis problem.
Which again, I keep saying,we've been digging.
We've been in an archeologicaldig for over 20...
(inaudible)...
yeah, for 25 years.
And*you, longer than that.
You know, getting to thesubstance of this.
(22:09):
To understand the root problem.
So we could be moving towards a*solution.
And so that's what this is allabout.
Owen (22:18):
Yeah, I heard somebody say the other day,"Mr.
Google knows everything."(Laughter.) And that's how
people feel.
That's a very interesting thing,isn't it?
And what's so sad too, John.
You know, a c ulture...
People talk about,"Well, that'sjust their culture." A culture
is a composite of all of the*habits of the people in that
(22:43):
culture have.
And that's why you ca n f ly--it used to be, even that's
changing-- but you could get ona plane and fly to Germany, or
Switzerland, or France, orsomewhere.
And get off the plane, andpeople looked and acted
differently.
They had different lookingclothes.
They ate different food.
They spoke a different language.
(23:04):
They lived in different typehouses.
And all of those habits, whichthey clung to bitterly, was
(*sic) their-- quote--"culture."And so now we've got an American
culture, a C hristian culturereally worldwide, it's not only
in America, t hat is completely*different-- think about that a
(23:26):
second-- from the*originalChristian culture.
And I once said, and I say thisin the early chapters of the
book-- I think maybe even in theintroduction, I don't remember--
that everything that we think ofas"Christian" today, did not
(23:47):
*exist in the First Century.
John (23:50):
Yeah, that's quite a statement.
Owen (23:51):
Think about that.
I mean, this is scary.
Everything you could name.
Imagine, you walk into yourtypical Christian-- quote--
"church" building.
By the way, the word"church"didn't exist in the First
Century.
And everything that you see (24:04):
The building...
the s tained glass...
the pews...
the Bibles...
the hymn books...
the candles...
the o ffering plates...
the a ltar...
the choir...
the pastor.
I could go on and on and on.
The musical instruments...
the praise team...
anything you want to name.
You name me something.
(24:25):
I t did*not exist in the FirstCentury.
Well, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Why would that be?
Does that mean that you don'tneed all that stuff?
Could that possibly mean thatyou could be a Spiritual
Christian*without candles andpews and offering pl ates a nd
all the rest of it?
(Chuckles.) And the answer is ascreaming, wild-eyed,
(24:47):
"Absolutely! Absolutely!"
John (24:52):
Yeah, and I...
you know, and piggybacking onthat, Owen.
I think a huge piece of this is: Jesus, salvation, and all things (24:57):
undefined
Christianity, is about*transformation.
And if there is notransformation-- if there's no
(25:19):
difference then, you know, aperson who is a Christian and a
person who is not-- then what'sthe point of it all?
And of course, we know thatthere is*supposed to be a l
ife-changing difference.
(25:39):
And that happens, of course.
And maybe a lot of people don'teven know that it happens.
The"natural" person(thenon-Christian) can't understand
it.
It's something supernatural(that) happens.
And that*supernatural thing isthe Person of the Holy Spirit.
And so people say,"Well, youbecame a Christian.
(26:02):
Well, what does that mean?" Isthat...
does that mean that I said theright thing.
Or I actually b elieve the rightthing?
Owen (26:07):
Joined the right denomination?
John (26:09):
Right.
And just to try to get the wordout here.
None of them know that you maydo those things.
But what distinguishes-- whatliterally makes us a Christian--
is we are*indwelled by the HolySpirit.
Now He's invisible.
(26:30):
He's a Spirit.
You can actually say...
Put it like this.
Maybe this is better for some tounderstand.
Jesus is no longer herephysically.
So what does He do?
He gives us His Spirit.
He*indwells us with His HolySpirit.
He comes, and the Bible talksabout"abiding...
(26:52):
indwelling...
living in." He's a"resident" ofus.
You say,"Well, John, that soundski nd o f c razy.
That sounds kind of ot herworldly." Well yeah, for sure.
It is, definitely.
That's why it's supernatural.
Owen (27:11):
Beyond the natural.
John (27:12):
Exactly, right.
Yeah.
Owen (27:15):
Well, and see...
And so, why did He do that,though?
See, John?
People don't stop and think: What is the whole*point of being (27:19):
undefined
a Christian?
The best answer they can come upwith is:"To go to heaven when
you die." And okay, that's nice,t oo.
Most people aren't anxious toeven go.
(Chuckles.) But even if theywere, that would be a good
thing.
But in the meantime, let's saythat I get-- as I did-- I get
(27:43):
indwelled by the power of theSpirit when I'm 11.
I won't tell you how old I amnow, but it's several years.
(Chuckles.) So what about inbetween those two?
What's supposed to happen to aperson who bec omes a Christian
as a teenager, or a child.
(28:04):
And liv es to 60, 70, 80, 90,whatever age.
What's expected of them?
Wha t's su pposed to happen inthe meantime?
Just go to the local service onthe Lord's day?
Put a dollar bill in theoffering plate?
Dose, and then go home?
John (28:23):
Be moral?
Owen (28:25):
Surely, it's more than that.
John (28:27):
Right, sure.
And a lot of people think thatChristianity equals"morality."
And so it's really...
Owen (28:36):
W hich"t hey ain't none of."
John (28:36):
Y eah.
Right.
(Chuckles.) Ouch.
Owen (28:39):
We won't go there!
John (28:41):
So, right.
When you start looking at that,about Jesus trans...
changing us...
transforming us from the insideout with His Holy Spirit, that
we might*experience Him.
And we've talked about it insome degree in all of our
episodes.
I think about the evidence ofthat: The Fruit of God's Spirit.
What is he*producing in us?
(29:02):
And so, it's that we might notjust know*about Him.
But we might*know Him, andexperience...
Owen (29:13):
And be like Him.
John (29:14):
...
yeah, and be like Him.
Experience him.
And through that influence, itshould-- it's supposed to--
cause more people to want towant to come to Him.
So they can have Him.
And they can experience Him.
And you just see thismultiplication.
And of course, obviously the endresult is one day, in the
(29:37):
consummation of history, we willall be-- all true Christians
will be-- in heaven.
But there's a lot stuff that Godwants us to be about before
then.
Owen (29:49):
Yeah, what's that old saying, John?
"*You might be the only Jesusthat people ever see." And I
would paraphrase that,"*Youmight be the only expression of
the Holy Spirit of God thatother people might ever see."
That's an interesting thought.
But see, Jesus talked about...
(30:09):
taught something called theKingdom of God on earth.
Most people, if you said,"Hey,where's th e K ingdom of God?"
They'd say,"In heaven." Well,that's true.
But there's supposed to be anelement...
I don't know if it's aforeshadowing, or what word it
would be.
A prophecy?
(30:30):
Something.
But th ere's s upposed to be away we can live some of the
Kingdom of God here on thisearth.
You know, Paul...
doesn't(the apostle) Paul have ascripture about that?
"The Kingdom of God is not meatand drink, but is p ower and
(30:52):
love(in the Holy Spirit)." I'veforgotten exactly.
(Romans 14:17.)
John (30:56):
And then Jesus, of course, in the Model Prayer says...
teaches us to pray:"May YourKingdom come.
May Your will be done on*earthas it is in heaven." And so
clearly it's supposed to bestreet level here, right?
(31:19):
(Chuckles.) You know, if itdoesn't ever come to us then,
you know, what's it all about?
Owen (31:26):
Well, you know, John.
Think about it a moment.
I know that to an extent we'redreamers and idealists.
But think about for a minute.
Look at all the crime.
I was watching on TV thismorning how crime is increasing,
not only all over the world, butall over America.
(31:47):
Weird things are happening.
I saw two people were jerked outof a car and shot and killed on
the street, just in recent daysin one of our major cities.
They were in a parade, andsomebody just opened the doors,
pulled them out, andassassinated them.
And then ran away up an alley.
(32:08):
And nobody knows who did it.
And that's not an unusual thingnow.
That's happening with more andmore frequency.
Well, God's smart enough-- youknow, He's*real smart.
(Chuckles.) And He's smartenough to see all that and know
all that.
So, why did He createChristianity to have some people
(32:29):
who didn't*do those types ofthings?
Imagine if everybody in thecountry was indwelled by the
Spirit and was letting theSpirit*motivate them, as we said
in the last segment (32:41):
51 percent or more of their brain, of their
mind, of their behavior.
What kind of world would wehave?
That*would be the Kingdom ofGod.
John (32:53):
Yeah, that'd be an answer to that prayer for sure.
Owen (32:56):
And*that's what Jesus wanted.
And you know I love that.
We've talked about it.
In the book of Acts, on the Dayof Pentecost, Peter stands on
the rooftop, and he tells thecrowd in the street what's
happening, and what they saw.
I love it.
And he said when Jesus leftearth, I'm paraphrasing, and
(33:20):
went to heaven.
And when He got to heaven, theFather handed Him-- can you
visualize that?
-- gave Him the Holy Spirit.
And He turned around, and"pouredthe Spirit out." And the Greek
words, they're like you're*pouring water out of a
pitcher*.
(33:41):
He poured the Holy Spirit out onthe first people-- the first 120
waiting in that house-- and*Christianity was born.
They were the first Christians.
So, how is a Christian created?
A Christian man, woman, child--whoever it is-- is created when
(34:04):
*the Holy Spirit is poured outinto them*.
You know, the Greek on the Dayof Pentecost says the Spirit
"settled down in each of them."Took up"residence." Took up an
"abide," a"life," in eachperson.
(34:28):
I've known people who, when theyprayed to be saved,*felt that.
Can you imagine?
I've known people who saw the*power of the Spirit.
He looks like a blue mistentering people.
*That is supernatural.
And is wonderful.
And every living human ought toexperience that.
(34:52):
And then let it spray fromthere, change their lives.
John (34:56):
Yeah, for sure.
And so, like you said a momentago.
Imagine! And here's the deal.
On some level, we*can imagineit.
Because we have experienced itat different times in our lives.
We've been in a period of timewhere we got a little*taste of
(35:17):
what that is like.
And we've longed for that eversince.
And in many ways, and this mayopen up the proverbial"can of
worms," perhaps.
But I'm going to go thereanyway.
In many ways, the current-- whatwe refer to as"Institutional
(35:39):
Christianity"-- has hindered,and in many ways, it has blocked
what we're talking about now.
And it has left peoplediscouraged, and disillusioned,
and...
Owen (35:57):
And Spiritually starved.
John (35:58):
Right! Spiritually starved.
And it's just tragic, tragic.
Owen (36:05):
And but see, John.
That was*Constantine.
John (36:08):
Sure! Right!
Owen (36:08):
That's why he did it.
He was trying at that time-- wewon't get into the history
today.
But he was trying to unite theRoman Empire.
Which at that time was dividedinto an East and a West Empire.
He wanted to be emperor of theentire empire.
So he was consolidating thearmies, and the legal processes,
(36:32):
and the courts, and everything,of those two empires.
And bringing them all under hiscontrol.
And it struck him that he had tobring all the*religions under
his control too.
And so over a 25 year period,that's exactly what he did.
And so, you stop and think about(it).
(36:53):
Now we're stuck with what hedid.
And people think*this is what weshould have.
And*this is what it is.
And let's all go to CrackerBarrel or Golden Corral, or some
nice restaurant, and enjoy theday and forget about.
And that's the tragedy.
That's the horror of it.
And meanwhile, you know, we'vegot child abuse, and spousal
(37:17):
abuse, and affairs, andinfidelity, and all the things
that go on.
And I hesitate to say, but a lotof the people doing that are
"professing Christians."
John (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Unfortunately.
And you know, you just thinkabout it.
And just, to my simple mind, ifChristianity has been reduced
to, really, it's meaningless.
I mean it just...
people don't even...
(37:50):
you know...
what they've seen...
what they've watched people who"profess" to be Christians.
And they say,"Well, goodness,that doesn't really seem to
matter to those people at all.
I see they've got a*Jesus Saves*sign in their front yard.
(38:10):
But goodness, they're some ofthe most miserable people I've
ever met.
And they're mean as snakes.
And they don't wave.
And they, you know, they're notpart of anything here.
And so, but yet they'reChristians.
And so, apparently, this whole*Christian thing doesn't make
(38:30):
any difference in your life.
It doesn't seem to matter.
And so, you know, wow.
I'll just, you know, I'll...
Owen (38:38):
Play golf.
John (38:38):
Yeah.
I'll be like the old(TV) show,*Cheers*.
I'll just go where everybodyknows my name(laughter) and, you
know, e at, drink and b e merry."
Owen (38:48):
Well, you know, John.
In one of our-- I think i n oneof our earlier segments-- I told
the story o f my brother who wasa pastor, and was talking to a
man one day that was verydisillusioned and stuff, and
trying to get him to startattending their(chuckles)
congregation.
And the man said,"Well, shucks,"he said.
(39:09):
"I can get more love in thenearest bar, t han I can in this
congregation." And sadly, thatwas probably true, to a large
extent.
B ut like you said in the lastsegment, let's talk a little bit
about the*solution.
You know, one of the things thatI have found, and I'm still
trying to get this in my mind.
(39:30):
One of the secrets to how tomake this happen, and to have
the Kingdom of God on*earth-- aswell as you're going to have it
later in heaven.
But we"ain't there yet." Solet's focus on*earth.
And one of the tricks I'mfinding is that you must be
around"Like-Minded" people.
(39:53):
That's what I have found.
Y ou n eed to be around otherpeople who are seeking"the
deeper walk"-- it's called-- andwho sincerely want supernatural
*experiences in their lives.
And to my surprise, there's nota whole heap of people with that
mindset.
(40:14):
A nd why do you think that is?
John (40:17):
Well, Owen, I think part of it is just awareness-- or a
*lack of awareness.
I think there's just...
obviously, there's been so muchthat we're dealing with today.
We have to really*unlearn inorder to experience what we're
talking about.
We've obviously over-complicated and made something
(40:40):
that's so simple, really.
We've made it extremelydifficult.
And we've added a lot oftrappings to it that are not
supposed to be a part of it.
And so, on and on it goes.
But if we can just make peopleaware:"Hey, listen.
(41:02):
Let's look at this.
Let's just look...
yeah...
let's just look at your life,you know, and look in my life."
We ask ourself that question,and say,"Well, what does it mean
for me to be a*Christian?
Or*am I a Christian?
Or has anything*changed in mylife?" And understanding that
the essence of this is to befilled with the Holy Spirit.
(41:24):
Not"one and done." But indwelled...
but then the rest of our life,we're seeking to be filled with
the Holy Spirit.
Now the manifestation of that--as obviously it's going to come
in a multitude of ways.
We are going to experience theGifts.
We're going to experience theFruit.
(41:46):
We've talked about thatextensively.
Our lives are going to be moreChrist- like.
We're going to want to live outthe Scriptures.
We're not going to see them assomething to*avoid-- but
something to*absorb.
And it's just...
it's going to be...
it's...
(chuckles) you know:"Here,*tasteand see that the Lord is good to
(42:06):
people.
You know, don't just experiencethis.
Here, ask Him to fill you withHis Holy Spirit, and He will."
Owen (42:16):
Like we said(chuckles) in the last episode
that I told the man that day,"Fill me, Holy Spirit." Here's
the Good News.
I don't know, I was sitting herethinking, how would you express
(Spirit-filling)?
The"forbidden fruit"?
*That doesn't sound right.
But here's what I have found.
(42:36):
Anybody who you mentioned, theLord's saying,"Taste and see
that I'm good." Anybody who hasexperienced even an hour of
being Spirit- filled (42:47):
a) Never forgets it.
And, b) wants it again.
And that is the Good News.
Because people, like you said,that happens in many ways.
It might be the appearance of anangel.
It might be a vision.
It might be various things thathappen.
(43:07):
But you're never the same.
(Repeats.) I've told the storythat when I flew home from New
York after I'd beenSpirit-filled the first time.
The next day I went to work, andpeople that knew me didn't
recognize me.
It was that...
my life was that different.
Just overnight.
(43:28):
Just in one experience.
And that's what it does forpeople.
The second part of it is notonly"Like-Mindedness." But as we
know, it's also-- the secret ofit that most people never
thought about-- is the"SmallGroup Structure." And we'll talk
a lot more in coming episodesabout Small Groups: What happens
(43:52):
in them.
How to form them.
But the Spirit doesn't-- I don'tknow exactly why-- but seem to
move as much in large groups, asHe does...
and that makes sense when youthink about it.
Because the intimacy and allthat you want in a Christian
experience, really happens in*small groups*.
(44:14):
I meet many Christians who neverknew, and were never told, that
originally the first nine or tengenerations of Christians met
privately in small groups inprivate homes.
And a lot of people didn't knowthat.
And that was one of the tricks...
one of the techniques...
one of the secrets...
(44:36):
for why it was successful in theFirst Century.
And of course, we're trying tomove back in that direction:
Like-minded, Spirit-filled,small groups.
John (44:47):
But Owen, I'm sitting here listening, and I'm thinking
about something that we'vereferenced before.
I believe that when you read inthe book of Acts in the New
Testament(about) the Day ofPentecost that we talk a lot
about, when the Holy Spirit cameand birthed, we say, or what the
(45:10):
essence of Christianity and theoutpouring of His Holy Spirit.
As Peter and the guys took thatand started moving around the
countryside.
They would run into people andsay,"Hey, hey, hey.
What about you?" You know,"Whatabout the holy spirit?
Have you been filled?
Have you been indwelled with theHoly Spirit?" And people would
look at them, and go,"Whoa, wedon't even know what you're
(45:34):
talking about.
What Holy Spirit?
What?" And he said,"Have youbeen baptized in the Holy
Spirit?
And they said,"Well, no, no, no,no." Well, he said,"Whose
baptism have you experienced?"And he said,"Well, we
experienced the baptism thatJohn(the Baptizer) was talking
about.
Which is a baptism ofrepentance.
(45:54):
Which means..." Right!"...
in water.
And you mean there's somethingelse?
Whoa." And they said,"Well,yeah.
Yeah, this is now thefulfillment of all of the
prophecy, and what Jesus toldus." And then they would pray,
lay hands on them, and theywould pray, and they would be
filled with the Holy Spirit, andGifts, and Fruit,*et cetera*,
(46:17):
and all would be manifest.
And so I really think one of thethings that we're striving for
here is, I feel like that somany people today, they have
been sincere.
And they've had a baptism ofwater.
A baptism of repentance.
Owen (46:36):
A lot of times, as babies or children.
John (46:38):
Correct, yeah.
But, in terms of what we'retalking about, which is the
essence of Christianity-- ofbeing indwelled and then filled
with the Holy Spirit-- they knownot of.
And so we are seeking that moreand more in our lives.
It kind of defines us and whatwe're seeking.
(47:01):
But we want you, our listeners,and we just want to see this
multiplied.
And we're pouring ourselves intowhether it's writing, whether
it's podcasts, whether it'sretreats, whether(chuckles) any
and everywhere we can getsomebody to listen.
We're trying to utilize those tosay,"Hey, hey, hey, listen!
(47:24):
Don't throw the proverbial*babyout with the bath water* here.
But you know, let's talk aboutwhat First Century Christianity
is.
And we want you to experienceit.
Owen (47:35):
And you know, John, one closing point on this that I
think is so important.
Like you said earlier, that wemade it complicated.
Actually, when you think aboutit, being a Spirit-filled
Christian-- a deeper walkingChristian-- you know, Paul said,
"Walk in the Spirit." And thatword"walk" in the Greek can be
(47:59):
translated,"Behave in theSpirit." And one way that
happens, it has to be-- we saidthis earlier-- has to be easy,
and simple, and obvious, or itwouldn't work.
Think about that a minute.
And so we've complicated ittoday.
(48:19):
You've got to have classes.
You've got to join a certaingroup.
You've got to do certain things.
*Yada, yada, yada.* And that'snot it at all.
And here's one proof that I loveto think about.
You mentioned earlier the Day ofPentecost, after Peter stood on
the rooftop and spoke to thecrowd in the streets.
They were pilgrims.
(48:40):
They were there to worship.
But they didn't know anythingabout the Christian experience.
Or indwelling.
Cause it(had just) happened thatmorning.
So Peter told them what washappening.
Then it says they were cut tothe heart.
And they looked at him and said,"But brother, what should we
do?" And he told them.
He said,"Just repent and befilled with the Spirit.
(49:04):
Be baptized in the Spirit." Andinstantly, 3,000 of them were.
And that's wonderful.
That's a great story.
But here's the punchline.
The Day of Pentecost was a*one-day* festival.
One day.
It ended at sunset that night.
So next morning, those 3,000people left town.
(49:28):
And where did they go?
It said they were from everyknown country.
So the 3,000 people spread onships, and camels, and whatever,
and walking.
And they went back to their homenations.
And look what God had done.
In*one day*, He had created aworldwide Spiritual movement.
(49:50):
But it gets even better.
Check this out.
How much*experience did those3,000 pilgrims have?
*One day*.
And they got on their camels,and they got on their ships, and
they went home.
And what did they do?
They spread that experience totheir families, their neighbors,
(50:11):
their cities.
And so when Paul went to Romeand 60 AD, he had never been
there before.
Remember, the Day of Pentecostwas in 30 AD.
This is 30 years later.
Paul goes to Rome.
What did he find?
A thriving Christian communitythere.
Thousands of Christians.
(50:33):
Where they come from?
They came from somebody that hadbeen present on Pentecost
morning, who took a ship home,and started Spiritual...
Spirituality...
Christianity...
in the city of Rome.
What I'm saying is, it's easy.
We don't have to study, think,worry, and struggle.
(50:54):
Just ask for it.
Want it.
Seek it.
Ask for it.
And it instantly happens.
John (51:00):
Right.
Praise God for that.
Yeah.
Well, we could talk about thisuntil the sunset.
Owen (51:06):
I'd like to!(Chuckles.).
John (51:06):
Yeah, absolutely, we could.
But as you say so often, I thinkthe big clock on the wall is
telling us that our time is up.
And would you agree, Owen?
This may be one of the mostimportant episodes we've done.
Owen (51:23):
I do.
I think so.
It's...
I hope and pray that somethingwe've said has touched a
listener somewhere.
And they realize-- probablythrough revelation of the Spirit
in their mind-- of what we'retalking about.
But you're right, John.
And we want our friends toremember that this is Episode
(51:44):
16, that there is a script and arecording of it are on our
podcast(website) at: goSCpod.com. (51:50):
undefined
And so, I...
you know what, John.
(Chuckles.) I hate to sign thisone off.
There's so much I want to say.
And maybe we can say some of itin later episodes.
But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (52:09):
...
and this is John Shields, andspeaking in for Shannon Wolf,
our producer, and for all threeof us...
Owen (52:17):
...
saying (52:17):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (52:38):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome to Episode16, in our bi-weekly series of
the"Saving Christianity"podcast.
(00:22):
We're coming to youevery-other-Tuesday from
Christian Family Online, and I'myour host, John Shields.
You may remember in the previousepisode-- Episode 15-- we talked
about"The Growing Christian,"and about how the mark and the
sign of Christians in the FirstCentury was that they were
(00:42):
growing Spiritually by being*Spirit-filled*.
We said that the problem todayis that Spirit-filling isn't
*taught by many Christiandenominations in our century,
the way it was in the FirstCentury.
And as a result, polls show thattoday's average Christian is*no
(01:03):
more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
And every time I read, or saythat, it's shocking to me.
Now, before continuing, let'srepeat: The reason Gallup polls
show that the average Christianis*no more Spiritual than a
non-Christian is because today'saverage Christian is an*infant.
(01:27):
And"infant" Christians arecalled*infants because they're
*not Spirit-filled.
So, here we are in episode 16.
And the title of this episodeis:"The Spirit-Filling Crisis."
(Repeats.) In this episode, ourco- hos t, Owen Allen, and I,
(01:54):
we're going to discuss the wholeissue of Christians*not being
Spirit-filled.
What problems is that causingChristians?
What problems is that causingthe denominations?
What problems is it causingsociety?
And, that glaring questionthat's on all o ur minds:*How
(02:18):
can more Christians beSpirit-filled*?
So, let's get right into it, bybringing in our co-host, O wen
Allen.
Welcome to Episode 16, Owen!
Owen (02:30):
Yo, John-- hello!-- And to all of our friends out there and
their kitchens, cars, gyms,wherever they are at the moment.
You know, John, we've been usingthis word"crisis" in several of
our episodes.
And we talk about thatChristianity is in a"crisis,"
and*yada yada*.
So maybe we ought to o bey ourown rules, and slow down long
(02:53):
enough to*define the word,"crisis."
John (02:56):
Yeah, I totally agree, Owen.
And as we've said so often inthese episodes: One of the
biggest weaknesses in today'sChristianity is that most
Christians don't know themeanings of many of the key
Christian words.
Owen (03:12):
That's right, that's right, John.
So, according to the dictionary,a"crisis" is a critical point...
or a decision point...
or a turning point...
in any particular situation.
And that's exactly whatChristians face today.
(03:33):
As some of our friends out inPodcast Land l istening to this
episode this very minute: They're at a crisis point, a (03:37):
undefined
decision point, a turning pointin*Spiritual growth*.
And I guess th e c risis, if Icould look at it in sort of a
strange way, they're askingthemselves,*How long am I going
(03:58):
to continue living as an in fantC hristian*?
John (04:02):
Or, to say that in reverse
start growing Spiritually bypraying constantly to be
Spirit-filled, so that they canexperience"*a little bit of
heaven while still here onearth*"?
Owen (04:18):
That's right, that's right.
*A little bit of heaven here onearth*.
And you know, I think that'sprobably the biggest crisis in
many Christian's lives at themoment.
I won't say*every Christian.
But probably, as I use the term"to be deathbed honest,"(it is
for) many Christians.
But the strange thing is thatI've found, John-- and it was
(04:41):
true of me personally-- manyChristians today don't even know
they*have a crisis.
I don't know if you've evernoticed that.
But I have.
And as I said, it was a true inmy own life.
Have you ever...
why do you think that is?
John (04:57):
Huh.
Owen, you know, we've talkedabout,"You don't know what you
don't know." And I really think,you know, a big piece of this
puzzle is, is that people reallydon't even know there's
something beyond, somethingthat's expected(of them).
(05:17):
That's supposed to be just the*supernatural next step, if you
will.
That we are supposed toSpiritually grow.
And that they don't...
You know, just-- quote--"beingsaved" has just been put out
there for so long that a lot ofpeople-- I'm like you, I won't
(05:42):
say necessarily*most, I don'tknow what percentage-- are just
...
think that's the sum andsubstance of what it means to be
a*Christian.
That I'm"saved"-- quote-- whichtranslates,"When I die, I'm
going to go to heaven." And youknow, your Birth Date and your
(06:07):
Death Date, it's own yourtombstone.
And nobody wants to talk aboutthe little*dash in the middle.
And what*that is supposed torepresent.
And we're making the case onthis podcast that the*dash in
between, that is supposed to beSpiritual growth.
(06:32):
It's supposed to be Spiritualgrowth-- being, and becoming,
living, experiencing,Christianity.
Owen (06:43):
Yeah.
It's what we, I guess, it's whatwe're taught that it is.
You know, I've told the storymany times about the fact that I
became a Christian when I was11.
My whole family was very active.
Later my brother and I bothbecame pastors.
But I had never heard the term"Spiritual growth," or the term
(07:08):
"Spirit-filling" until I was inmy 30s.
Yet I was very active my wholelife in two major denominations.
One my parents were in, and thenwhen I was a teenager, we
changed to a second one.
But we were always active.
And I guess you think, John,that as long as you go 2, 3, 4
(07:33):
times a month, and attend theformal services, that's all
there is.
And yet, and*yet, the surveysshow, and we've mentioned this
in previous episodes, that todaythe average Christian service--
according to the pollsters,people who are interviewed, that
(07:55):
type of thing, research formerlydone-- most people will say that
the services they go to areirrelevant, and boring, and
hypocritical.
One survey, I remember readingsome years ago, half of the
people who attended left*moredepressed than they were when
(08:17):
they*went.
And yet, and*yet, we dress upand go and sit there, and we
think*that's"Christianity." Imean that's scary.
John (08:28):
Yeah, and I...
you've heard me say it before,Owen.
A lot of people, again,associate"Christianity" with a
place and a time.
You know, and a day.
It's Sunday.
It's at 11.
And it's at First and Third, orwhatever, you know, Street.
And that's it.
It's a place and the time.
And it's really nothing morethan that.
(08:50):
And I'm just like you.
I was raised, and what I knew todo was read my Bible, pray, and
make sure I attended services.
Yeah, tithe, yeah.
But nothing about Spiritualgrowth.
Not to mention that it wasnecessary.
(09:12):
Or how that happened.
Or what the results of thatwould be.
And I want to just throw inhere, Owen, and I think just as
kind of a foundational to whatwe're talking about here, is: We
always hear about"The GreatCommission"...
"The Great Commission"...
in Matthew 28(Matthew 28:16-20)...
(09:32):
Jesus's Final Words.
And we want to be"GreatCommission Christians,"*et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera*.
But then you have to step backfrom that.
And that has been one of themost, I believe, misused and
abused verses of Scripture inthe entire New Testament.
And it's created a lot of theproblems that we are addressing
(09:57):
here in our"Saving Christianity"podcast.
And that is (10:00):
It's been interpreted as,"Go and get
people saved." Or,"Go and makepeople infants, infant
Christians,"(laughter) and justleave them.
As you know, nothing about...
and Jesus didn't say that! Hesaid,"Make*disciples(inaudible)
to obey, and t o.
.
.
(10:21):
and s o there's just been a tragi c misrepresentation of this.
And o f co urse we see theevidence of that everywhere.
Owen (10:36):
Yeah, oh, wow.
You know, John, there's awonderful story, I can't
remember if I've told it yet inthese episodes.
But it's true.
It was told to me by a pastorsome years ago.
They had a little exercise orcontest in the Sunday school
room with the little children.
I don't remember their ages, butvery young children.
(10:58):
And they said, Draw us..." Theygave them paper and pencils and
stuff.
And they said,"Draw a picture ofwhat Sunday and the service
means to you." And so they did.
The children did.
And all the children showedtheir pictures.
And so the pastor was supposedto pick the best picture.
(11:18):
So he looked at one and he saidto the child, he said,"Well,
this looks like a fur coat.
Did you draw a picture of a*furcoat*?" The child said,"Uh-huh."
And the pastor said,"Well, butyou were supposed to draw a
picture of what the Lord's DayServices mean." And the child
said,"Yes, I did." And thepastor said,"Well, what are you
(11:41):
talking about?
This is a fur coat?
How does that relate?" And thechild said,"Well, the Sunday
Services are something I put on,on Sunday morning, and take off
Sunday night."(Yeahs andChuckles.) And that's really,
for a lot of us, you know, theold joke:"We live for the devil
six days a week, and for God oneday a week." And all these
(12:05):
statements tha t pe ople say.
But you know, John, I think alot of it too, is a question of
*education.
Or the way that Christians tryto*educate one another these
days.
We're goi ng to ta lk about thisin an upcoming episode.
But I call it the"ClassroomModel." It's intellectualism.
(12:29):
You know, we talk"at" people.
But yet, if you read any basicbook on Learning Theory, people
don't learn by sitting andpassively listening.
They learn by*experiencing.
They learn by*doing.
And we made the joke the otherday that it's like if you had a
(12:50):
Flight School for pilots, andthen when you giv e th em their
certificates, after they'dlearned to read a map and do all
the different things.
And you said,"Okay, now go tothe airport and fly a plane."
And of course none of them*could.
They would all crash.
Because they haven't had any*flight training.
And I think that's what we'vegot in Christianity.
(13:11):
We went to ground school.
But we haven't had any flighttraining.
John (13:13):
Yeah, I think of it too, you know, it says in the Bible,
in the Old Testament,"To*tasteand see that the Lord is good."
(Psalm 34:8.) And I kind ofthink of that, Owen, as an
illustration, that if I wenthome this evening, and my wife
said to me," Hey, John, come onover to the dinner table." An d
(13:35):
we sat down, and sh e op enedthe Recipe Book in front of me.
And I'm sitting on the otherside of the table, and she
starts reading this*recipe of awonderful casserole: One cup of
this, and you do two cups ofthat, and you stir it for 10
minutes,*et cetera*.
(13:55):
And I'm sitting over there just,you know, befuddled.
Wondering, you know,"Is thisdinner?" Wel l, I'm...
(inaudible)...
"Well, I' m gon na*t ell you allabout it." And actually,"Here's,
John, here's a*picture.
It's a picture of what thefinished product looks like."
Okay, so we do all that.
(14:19):
And after a while I get up, andI'm starved to death.
Right?
I'm hungry.
I heard all about theingredients.
What it looks like.
What it's supposed to tastelike,*et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera*.
But I never got to see it:"Tasteand see that the Lord is good."
(14:40):
And I really think that that isa pretty adequate experience of
most people, of what they areexperiencing.
They hear the"recipe" read, andwhat it's supposed...
How we're supposed to look,*etcetera*.
(15:02):
But they never exp erience Spirit-filling.
They never taste and see thatthe Lord is good.
Owen (15:11):
Never*seen it.
Don't know anybody that's*doneit.
Including all the people on theplatform.
John (15:16):
But it's a"delicious casserole!"
John and Owen (15:20):
(Inaudible.)
Owen (15:21):
But you know, let's think a second.
Why is it happening that way?
Because it's such a tragedy.
We've said many times that inthe First Century, what we're
calling the"Early ChristianLifestyle"...
we know that...
You mentioned*evangelism aminute go today.
(15:42):
We have the"Love'em and leave'em" process.
Some famous person flies intotown, speaks somewhere in the
ballpark, gives an altar call,two or three thousand people
come forward.
They give them a brochure.
He boards a plane and leaves.
Everybody goes home.
(16:02):
And that's the end of it.
And that's been studied andfound to be basically true.
There's very little long-rangeproduction from these big
crusades.
So, but the question is:*Why isall of that happening?
You know,*why are so few peopleliving it?
And I was talking aboutevangelism there.
(16:25):
Evangelism in the First Century,people were attracted not to a
famous speaker on the platform.
People were attracted to thehusband, the wife, the boy, the
girl, next door...
John (16:37):
To the"Lifestyle"!
Owen (16:38):
...
because of their Spirit-filledbehavior.
And people said,"Ouch.
I want that love, andgentleness, and faithfulness,
that the couple next door has.
What*is that?" That's how itspread.
As well as the gifts and themiracles.
And that was part of it too.
(16:58):
So we don't have*any of thattoday.
We have a lecture.
Why?
John (17:03):
A personality.
You know.
Owen (17:05):
With a lecture.
John (17:06):
Right.
(Laughter.) Personality with alecture, yeah, yeah.
Owen (17:10):
So, but why?
Where...
how did...
where did we go wrong, John?
John (17:14):
Well, uh, you know, Owen.
We talked about this for 25years, and you've written about
it extensively.
And you know, it doesn't matter...
what...
if you're just off a littlepercentage as the time...
you know, if I start off and I'msaying,"Well, I'm just two
(17:35):
degrees off of my flightpattern.
Surely that's not going to makeany difference." Well over time
(chuckles), you're going to windup somewhere you never dreamed
you would wind up.
And I think that's what happenedto Christianity.
Owen (17:51):
Yeah, well you know, like you said John, we've talked
about it so many times.
And it's simply historical*facts.
Nobody disputes it.
The first 300 years of Christianhistory, they had a"Behavioral
Model," if we could call itthat.
A"Lifestyle Model," where theywere empowered and motivated by
(18:17):
the supernatural presence withinthem of the Holy Spirit.
And then of course, in theFourth Century, the Roman
emperor Constantine came topower and just simply reversed
180 degrees everything thatChristians had been doing.
And within 25 years that heruled, he completely reversed
(18:44):
what had been*originalChristianity.
He's the one that built thefirst buildings.
He's the one that passed lawsthat Christian had to attend
them.
He's the one that changed whatthey called"the Lord's Day," to
the new term,"Sun Day," becausehe was a sun worshiper.
(19:08):
He's the one who outlawed smallgroups in private homes.
He's the one that foundedpriests presiding from the
platform.
(Hierarchy!) All the rest of it.
We could go on and on and on.
And of course they resisted.
Christian resisted that.
But after all(chuckles), he wasthe Roman emperor, with th e R
(19:32):
oman army supporting him.
And Roman law supporting him.
And over 25 years, he did infact kill effectively what had
been the*original Christianexperience.
An d t hat was more than"twodegrees"! And we've never
(19:53):
recovered.
And you know, John.
We've talked about this a lot.
People are creatures of habit.
And think about it.
These habits now, of a bigbuilding, with a big crowd, with
a big platform, with a bigspeaker, have been in place now
2000-- right at 2000-- years.
(20:14):
How are we going to turn thataround?
John (20:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I think about, you know, now inthis modern time, there's not...
We don't have a frame ofreference.
It's just, even in my kid'shistory, and kids that are a
little bit older than them, intheir twenties.
(20:40):
You know, to some of theillustrations I use, their eyes
cross.
They don't even have a frame ofreference.
If you talk about going to thelibrary, and putting out 20
books on a table, and you'reusing a pencil and paper and
taking notes.
And all they know is a laptop,an iPad, and Google.
(21:03):
And you just ask Google.
I mean, you just type it in, andinstantly with Wikipedia, and
you get your answers toeverything.
And so, they live in all they'veever known, really.
And so we've got now generationafter generation of Christians
(21:25):
who are...
It's just being literally passedon from one generation to the
next.
And so that's why we are sopassionate about,"Okay, let's
jump back to the*original.
Let's go back to the FirstCentury.
Something is clearly notworking." And it's not on*God
(21:47):
that it's not working.
It's on us.
So we need to get to the root ofthis problem.
Which again, I keep saying,we've been digging.
We've been in an archeologicaldig for over 20...
(inaudible)...
yeah, for 25 years.
And*you, longer than that.
You know, getting to thesubstance of this.
(22:09):
To understand the root problem.
So we could be moving towards a*solution.
And so that's what this is allabout.
Owen (22:18):
Yeah, I heard somebody say the other day,"Mr.
Google knows everything."(Laughter.) And that's how
people feel.
That's a very interesting thing,isn't it?
And what's so sad too, John.
You know, a c ulture...
People talk about,"Well, that'sjust their culture." A culture
is a composite of all of the*habits of the people in that
(22:43):
culture have.
And that's why you ca n f ly--it used to be, even that's
changing-- but you could get ona plane and fly to Germany, or
Switzerland, or France, orsomewhere.
And get off the plane, andpeople looked and acted
differently.
They had different lookingclothes.
They ate different food.
They spoke a different language.
(23:04):
They lived in different typehouses.
And all of those habits, whichthey clung to bitterly, was
(*sic) their-- quote--"culture."And so now we've got an American
culture, a C hristian culturereally worldwide, it's not only
in America, t hat is completely*different-- think about that a
(23:26):
second-- from the*originalChristian culture.
And I once said, and I say thisin the early chapters of the
book-- I think maybe even in theintroduction, I don't remember--
that everything that we think ofas"Christian" today, did not
(23:47):
*exist in the First Century.
John (23:50):
Yeah, that's quite a statement.
Owen (23:51):
Think about that.
I mean, this is scary.
Everything you could name.
Imagine, you walk into yourtypical Christian-- quote--
"church" building.
By the way, the word"church"didn't exist in the First
Century.
And everything that you see (24:04):
The building...
the s tained glass...
the pews...
the Bibles...
the hymn books...
the candles...
the o ffering plates...
the a ltar...
the choir...
the pastor.
I could go on and on and on.
The musical instruments...
the praise team...
anything you want to name.
You name me something.
(24:25):
I t did*not exist in the FirstCentury.
Well, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Why would that be?
Does that mean that you don'tneed all that stuff?
Could that possibly mean thatyou could be a Spiritual
Christian*without candles andpews and offering pl ates a nd
all the rest of it?
(Chuckles.) And the answer is ascreaming, wild-eyed,
(24:47):
"Absolutely! Absolutely!"
John (24:52):
Yeah, and I...
you know, and piggybacking onthat, Owen.
I think a huge piece of this is: Jesus, salvation, and all things (24:57):
undefined
Christianity, is about*transformation.
And if there is notransformation-- if there's no
(25:19):
difference then, you know, aperson who is a Christian and a
person who is not-- then what'sthe point of it all?
And of course, we know thatthere is*supposed to be a l
ife-changing difference.
(25:39):
And that happens, of course.
And maybe a lot of people don'teven know that it happens.
The"natural" person(thenon-Christian) can't understand
it.
It's something supernatural(that) happens.
And that*supernatural thing isthe Person of the Holy Spirit.
And so people say,"Well, youbecame a Christian.
(26:02):
Well, what does that mean?" Isthat...
does that mean that I said theright thing.
Or I actually b elieve the rightthing?
Owen (26:07):
Joined the right denomination?
John (26:09):
Right.
And just to try to get the wordout here.
None of them know that you maydo those things.
But what distinguishes-- whatliterally makes us a Christian--
is we are*indwelled by the HolySpirit.
Now He's invisible.
(26:30):
He's a Spirit.
You can actually say...
Put it like this.
Maybe this is better for some tounderstand.
Jesus is no longer herephysically.
So what does He do?
He gives us His Spirit.
He*indwells us with His HolySpirit.
He comes, and the Bible talksabout"abiding...
(26:52):
indwelling...
living in." He's a"resident" ofus.
You say,"Well, John, that soundski nd o f c razy.
That sounds kind of ot herworldly." Well yeah, for sure.
It is, definitely.
That's why it's supernatural.
Owen (27:11):
Beyond the natural.
John (27:12):
Exactly, right.
Yeah.
Owen (27:15):
Well, and see...
And so, why did He do that,though?
See, John?
People don't stop and think: What is the whole*point of being (27:19):
undefined
a Christian?
The best answer they can come upwith is:"To go to heaven when
you die." And okay, that's nice,t oo.
Most people aren't anxious toeven go.
(Chuckles.) But even if theywere, that would be a good
thing.
But in the meantime, let's saythat I get-- as I did-- I get
(27:43):
indwelled by the power of theSpirit when I'm 11.
I won't tell you how old I amnow, but it's several years.
(Chuckles.) So what about inbetween those two?
What's supposed to happen to aperson who bec omes a Christian
as a teenager, or a child.
(28:04):
And liv es to 60, 70, 80, 90,whatever age.
What's expected of them?
Wha t's su pposed to happen inthe meantime?
Just go to the local service onthe Lord's day?
Put a dollar bill in theoffering plate?
Dose, and then go home?
John (28:23):
Be moral?
Owen (28:25):
Surely, it's more than that.
John (28:27):
Right, sure.
And a lot of people think thatChristianity equals"morality."
And so it's really...
Owen (28:36):
W hich"t hey ain't none of."
John (28:36):
Y eah.
Right.
(Chuckles.) Ouch.
Owen (28:39):
We won't go there!
John (28:41):
So, right.
When you start looking at that,about Jesus trans...
changing us...
transforming us from the insideout with His Holy Spirit, that
we might*experience Him.
And we've talked about it insome degree in all of our
episodes.
I think about the evidence ofthat: The Fruit of God's Spirit.
What is he*producing in us?
(29:02):
And so, it's that we might notjust know*about Him.
But we might*know Him, andexperience...
Owen (29:13):
And be like Him.
John (29:14):
...
yeah, and be like Him.
Experience him.
And through that influence, itshould-- it's supposed to--
cause more people to want towant to come to Him.
So they can have Him.
And they can experience Him.
And you just see thismultiplication.
And of course, obviously the endresult is one day, in the
(29:37):
consummation of history, we willall be-- all true Christians
will be-- in heaven.
But there's a lot stuff that Godwants us to be about before
then.
Owen (29:49):
Yeah, what's that old saying, John?
"*You might be the only Jesusthat people ever see." And I
would paraphrase that,"*Youmight be the only expression of
the Holy Spirit of God thatother people might ever see."
That's an interesting thought.
But see, Jesus talked about...
(30:09):
taught something called theKingdom of God on earth.
Most people, if you said,"Hey,where's th e K ingdom of God?"
They'd say,"In heaven." Well,that's true.
But there's supposed to be anelement...
I don't know if it's aforeshadowing, or what word it
would be.
A prophecy?
(30:30):
Something.
But th ere's s upposed to be away we can live some of the
Kingdom of God here on thisearth.
You know, Paul...
doesn't(the apostle) Paul have ascripture about that?
"The Kingdom of God is not meatand drink, but is p ower and
(30:52):
love(in the Holy Spirit)." I'veforgotten exactly.
(Romans 14:17.)
John (30:56):
And then Jesus, of course, in the Model Prayer says...
teaches us to pray:"May YourKingdom come.
May Your will be done on*earthas it is in heaven." And so
clearly it's supposed to bestreet level here, right?
(31:19):
(Chuckles.) You know, if itdoesn't ever come to us then,
you know, what's it all about?
Owen (31:26):
Well, you know, John.
Think about it a moment.
I know that to an extent we'redreamers and idealists.
But think about for a minute.
Look at all the crime.
I was watching on TV thismorning how crime is increasing,
not only all over the world, butall over America.
(31:47):
Weird things are happening.
I saw two people were jerked outof a car and shot and killed on
the street, just in recent daysin one of our major cities.
They were in a parade, andsomebody just opened the doors,
pulled them out, andassassinated them.
And then ran away up an alley.
(32:08):
And nobody knows who did it.
And that's not an unusual thingnow.
That's happening with more andmore frequency.
Well, God's smart enough-- youknow, He's*real smart.
(Chuckles.) And He's smartenough to see all that and know
all that.
So, why did He createChristianity to have some people
(32:29):
who didn't*do those types ofthings?
Imagine if everybody in thecountry was indwelled by the
Spirit and was letting theSpirit*motivate them, as we said
in the last segment (32:41):
51 percent or more of their brain, of their
mind, of their behavior.
What kind of world would wehave?
That*would be the Kingdom ofGod.
John (32:53):
Yeah, that'd be an answer to that prayer for sure.
Owen (32:56):
And*that's what Jesus wanted.
And you know I love that.
We've talked about it.
In the book of Acts, on the Dayof Pentecost, Peter stands on
the rooftop, and he tells thecrowd in the street what's
happening, and what they saw.
I love it.
And he said when Jesus leftearth, I'm paraphrasing, and
(33:20):
went to heaven.
And when He got to heaven, theFather handed Him-- can you
visualize that?
-- gave Him the Holy Spirit.
And He turned around, and"pouredthe Spirit out." And the Greek
words, they're like you're*pouring water out of a
pitcher*.
(33:41):
He poured the Holy Spirit out onthe first people-- the first 120
waiting in that house-- and*Christianity was born.
They were the first Christians.
So, how is a Christian created?
A Christian man, woman, child--whoever it is-- is created when
(34:04):
*the Holy Spirit is poured outinto them*.
You know, the Greek on the Dayof Pentecost says the Spirit
"settled down in each of them."Took up"residence." Took up an
"abide," a"life," in eachperson.
(34:28):
I've known people who, when theyprayed to be saved,*felt that.
Can you imagine?
I've known people who saw the*power of the Spirit.
He looks like a blue mistentering people.
*That is supernatural.
And is wonderful.
And every living human ought toexperience that.
(34:52):
And then let it spray fromthere, change their lives.
John (34:56):
Yeah, for sure.
And so, like you said a momentago.
Imagine! And here's the deal.
On some level, we*can imagineit.
Because we have experienced itat different times in our lives.
We've been in a period of timewhere we got a little*taste of
(35:17):
what that is like.
And we've longed for that eversince.
And in many ways, and this mayopen up the proverbial"can of
worms," perhaps.
But I'm going to go thereanyway.
In many ways, the current-- whatwe refer to as"Institutional
(35:39):
Christianity"-- has hindered,and in many ways, it has blocked
what we're talking about now.
And it has left peoplediscouraged, and disillusioned,
and...
Owen (35:57):
And Spiritually starved.
John (35:58):
Right! Spiritually starved.
And it's just tragic, tragic.
Owen (36:05):
And but see, John.
That was*Constantine.
John (36:08):
Sure! Right!
Owen (36:08):
That's why he did it.
He was trying at that time-- wewon't get into the history
today.
But he was trying to unite theRoman Empire.
Which at that time was dividedinto an East and a West Empire.
He wanted to be emperor of theentire empire.
So he was consolidating thearmies, and the legal processes,
(36:32):
and the courts, and everything,of those two empires.
And bringing them all under hiscontrol.
And it struck him that he had tobring all the*religions under
his control too.
And so over a 25 year period,that's exactly what he did.
And so, you stop and think about(it).
(36:53):
Now we're stuck with what hedid.
And people think*this is what weshould have.
And*this is what it is.
And let's all go to CrackerBarrel or Golden Corral, or some
nice restaurant, and enjoy theday and forget about.
And that's the tragedy.
That's the horror of it.
And meanwhile, you know, we'vegot child abuse, and spousal
(37:17):
abuse, and affairs, andinfidelity, and all the things
that go on.
And I hesitate to say, but a lotof the people doing that are
"professing Christians."
John (37:29):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Unfortunately.
And you know, you just thinkabout it.
And just, to my simple mind, ifChristianity has been reduced
to, really, it's meaningless.
I mean it just...
people don't even...
(37:50):
you know...
what they've seen...
what they've watched people who"profess" to be Christians.
And they say,"Well, goodness,that doesn't really seem to
matter to those people at all.
I see they've got a*Jesus Saves*sign in their front yard.
(38:10):
But goodness, they're some ofthe most miserable people I've
ever met.
And they're mean as snakes.
And they don't wave.
And they, you know, they're notpart of anything here.
And so, but yet they'reChristians.
And so, apparently, this whole*Christian thing doesn't make
(38:30):
any difference in your life.
It doesn't seem to matter.
And so, you know, wow.
I'll just, you know, I'll...
Owen (38:38):
Play golf.
John (38:38):
Yeah.
I'll be like the old(TV) show,*Cheers*.
I'll just go where everybodyknows my name(laughter) and, you
know, e at, drink and b e merry."
Owen (38:48):
Well, you know, John.
In one of our-- I think i n oneof our earlier segments-- I told
the story o f my brother who wasa pastor, and was talking to a
man one day that was verydisillusioned and stuff, and
trying to get him to startattending their(chuckles)
congregation.
And the man said,"Well, shucks,"he said.
(39:09):
"I can get more love in thenearest bar, t han I can in this
congregation." And sadly, thatwas probably true, to a large
extent.
B ut like you said in the lastsegment, let's talk a little bit
about the*solution.
You know, one of the things thatI have found, and I'm still
trying to get this in my mind.
(39:30):
One of the secrets to how tomake this happen, and to have
the Kingdom of God on*earth-- aswell as you're going to have it
later in heaven.
But we"ain't there yet." Solet's focus on*earth.
And one of the tricks I'mfinding is that you must be
around"Like-Minded" people.
(39:53):
That's what I have found.
Y ou n eed to be around otherpeople who are seeking"the
deeper walk"-- it's called-- andwho sincerely want supernatural
*experiences in their lives.
And to my surprise, there's nota whole heap of people with that
mindset.
(40:14):
A nd why do you think that is?
John (40:17):
Well, Owen, I think part of it is just awareness-- or a
*lack of awareness.
I think there's just...
obviously, there's been so muchthat we're dealing with today.
We have to really*unlearn inorder to experience what we're
talking about.
We've obviously over-complicated and made something
(40:40):
that's so simple, really.
We've made it extremelydifficult.
And we've added a lot oftrappings to it that are not
supposed to be a part of it.
And so, on and on it goes.
But if we can just make peopleaware:"Hey, listen.
(41:02):
Let's look at this.
Let's just look...
yeah...
let's just look at your life,you know, and look in my life."
We ask ourself that question,and say,"Well, what does it mean
for me to be a*Christian?
Or*am I a Christian?
Or has anything*changed in mylife?" And understanding that
the essence of this is to befilled with the Holy Spirit.
(41:24):
Not"one and done." But indwelled...
but then the rest of our life,we're seeking to be filled with
the Holy Spirit.
Now the manifestation of that--as obviously it's going to come
in a multitude of ways.
We are going to experience theGifts.
We're going to experience theFruit.
(41:46):
We've talked about thatextensively.
Our lives are going to be moreChrist- like.
We're going to want to live outthe Scriptures.
We're not going to see them assomething to*avoid-- but
something to*absorb.
And it's just...
it's going to be...
it's...
(chuckles) you know:"Here,*tasteand see that the Lord is good to
(42:06):
people.
You know, don't just experiencethis.
Here, ask Him to fill you withHis Holy Spirit, and He will."
Owen (42:16):
Like we said(chuckles) in the last episode
that I told the man that day,"Fill me, Holy Spirit." Here's
the Good News.
I don't know, I was sitting herethinking, how would you express
(Spirit-filling)?
The"forbidden fruit"?
*That doesn't sound right.
But here's what I have found.
(42:36):
Anybody who you mentioned, theLord's saying,"Taste and see
that I'm good." Anybody who hasexperienced even an hour of
being Spirit- filled (42:47):
a) Never forgets it.
And, b) wants it again.
And that is the Good News.
Because people, like you said,that happens in many ways.
It might be the appearance of anangel.
It might be a vision.
It might be various things thathappen.
(43:07):
But you're never the same.
(Repeats.) I've told the storythat when I flew home from New
York after I'd beenSpirit-filled the first time.
The next day I went to work, andpeople that knew me didn't
recognize me.
It was that...
my life was that different.
Just overnight.
(43:28):
Just in one experience.
And that's what it does forpeople.
The second part of it is notonly"Like-Mindedness." But as we
know, it's also-- the secret ofit that most people never
thought about-- is the"SmallGroup Structure." And we'll talk
a lot more in coming episodesabout Small Groups: What happens
(43:52):
in them.
How to form them.
But the Spirit doesn't-- I don'tknow exactly why-- but seem to
move as much in large groups, asHe does...
and that makes sense when youthink about it.
Because the intimacy and allthat you want in a Christian
experience, really happens in*small groups*.
(44:14):
I meet many Christians who neverknew, and were never told, that
originally the first nine or tengenerations of Christians met
privately in small groups inprivate homes.
And a lot of people didn't knowthat.
And that was one of the tricks...
one of the techniques...
one of the secrets...
(44:36):
for why it was successful in theFirst Century.
And of course, we're trying tomove back in that direction:
Like-minded, Spirit-filled,small groups.
John (44:47):
But Owen, I'm sitting here listening, and I'm thinking
about something that we'vereferenced before.
I believe that when you read inthe book of Acts in the New
Testament(about) the Day ofPentecost that we talk a lot
about, when the Holy Spirit cameand birthed, we say, or what the
(45:10):
essence of Christianity and theoutpouring of His Holy Spirit.
As Peter and the guys took thatand started moving around the
countryside.
They would run into people andsay,"Hey, hey, hey.
What about you?" You know,"Whatabout the holy spirit?
Have you been filled?
Have you been indwelled with theHoly Spirit?" And people would
look at them, and go,"Whoa, wedon't even know what you're
(45:34):
talking about.
What Holy Spirit?
What?" And he said,"Have youbeen baptized in the Holy
Spirit?
And they said,"Well, no, no, no,no." Well, he said,"Whose
baptism have you experienced?"And he said,"Well, we
experienced the baptism thatJohn(the Baptizer) was talking
about.
Which is a baptism ofrepentance.
(45:54):
Which means..." Right!"...
in water.
And you mean there's somethingelse?
Whoa." And they said,"Well,yeah.
Yeah, this is now thefulfillment of all of the
prophecy, and what Jesus toldus." And then they would pray,
lay hands on them, and theywould pray, and they would be
filled with the Holy Spirit, andGifts, and Fruit,*et cetera*,
(46:17):
and all would be manifest.
And so I really think one of thethings that we're striving for
here is, I feel like that somany people today, they have
been sincere.
And they've had a baptism ofwater.
A baptism of repentance.
Owen (46:36):
A lot of times, as babies or children.
John (46:38):
Correct, yeah.
But, in terms of what we'retalking about, which is the
essence of Christianity-- ofbeing indwelled and then filled
with the Holy Spirit-- they knownot of.
And so we are seeking that moreand more in our lives.
It kind of defines us and whatwe're seeking.
(47:01):
But we want you, our listeners,and we just want to see this
multiplied.
And we're pouring ourselves intowhether it's writing, whether
it's podcasts, whether it'sretreats, whether(chuckles) any
and everywhere we can getsomebody to listen.
We're trying to utilize those tosay,"Hey, hey, hey, listen!
(47:24):
Don't throw the proverbial*babyout with the bath water* here.
But you know, let's talk aboutwhat First Century Christianity
is.
And we want you to experienceit.
Owen (47:35):
And you know, John, one closing point on this that I
think is so important.
Like you said earlier, that wemade it complicated.
Actually, when you think aboutit, being a Spirit-filled
Christian-- a deeper walkingChristian-- you know, Paul said,
"Walk in the Spirit." And thatword"walk" in the Greek can be
(47:59):
translated,"Behave in theSpirit." And one way that
happens, it has to be-- we saidthis earlier-- has to be easy,
and simple, and obvious, or itwouldn't work.
Think about that a minute.
And so we've complicated ittoday.
(48:19):
You've got to have classes.
You've got to join a certaingroup.
You've got to do certain things.
*Yada, yada, yada.* And that'snot it at all.
And here's one proof that I loveto think about.
You mentioned earlier the Day ofPentecost, after Peter stood on
the rooftop and spoke to thecrowd in the streets.
They were pilgrims.
(48:40):
They were there to worship.
But they didn't know anythingabout the Christian experience.
Or indwelling.
Cause it(had just) happened thatmorning.
So Peter told them what washappening.
Then it says they were cut tothe heart.
And they looked at him and said,"But brother, what should we
do?" And he told them.
He said,"Just repent and befilled with the Spirit.
(49:04):
Be baptized in the Spirit." Andinstantly, 3,000 of them were.
And that's wonderful.
That's a great story.
But here's the punchline.
The Day of Pentecost was a*one-day* festival.
One day.
It ended at sunset that night.
So next morning, those 3,000people left town.
(49:28):
And where did they go?
It said they were from everyknown country.
So the 3,000 people spread onships, and camels, and whatever,
and walking.
And they went back to their homenations.
And look what God had done.
In*one day*, He had created aworldwide Spiritual movement.
(49:50):
But it gets even better.
Check this out.
How much*experience did those3,000 pilgrims have?
*One day*.
And they got on their camels,and they got on their ships, and
they went home.
And what did they do?
They spread that experience totheir families, their neighbors,
(50:11):
their cities.
And so when Paul went to Romeand 60 AD, he had never been
there before.
Remember, the Day of Pentecostwas in 30 AD.
This is 30 years later.
Paul goes to Rome.
What did he find?
A thriving Christian communitythere.
Thousands of Christians.
(50:33):
Where they come from?
They came from somebody that hadbeen present on Pentecost
morning, who took a ship home,and started Spiritual...
Spirituality...
Christianity...
in the city of Rome.
What I'm saying is, it's easy.
We don't have to study, think,worry, and struggle.
(50:54):
Just ask for it.
Want it.
Seek it.
Ask for it.
And it instantly happens.
John (51:00):
Right.
Praise God for that.
Yeah.
Well, we could talk about thisuntil the sunset.
Owen (51:06):
I'd like to!(Chuckles.).
John (51:06):
Yeah, absolutely, we could.
But as you say so often, I thinkthe big clock on the wall is
telling us that our time is up.
And would you agree, Owen?
This may be one of the mostimportant episodes we've done.
Owen (51:23):
I do.
I think so.
It's...
I hope and pray that somethingwe've said has touched a
listener somewhere.
And they realize-- probablythrough revelation of the Spirit
in their mind-- of what we'retalking about.
But you're right, John.
And we want our friends toremember that this is Episode
(51:44):
16, that there is a script and arecording of it are on our
podcast(website) at: goSCpod.com. (51:50):
undefined
And so, I...
you know what, John.
(Chuckles.) I hate to sign thisone off.
There's so much I want to say.
And maybe we can say some of itin later episodes.
But for now, this is Owen Allen...
John (52:09):
...
and this is John Shields, andspeaking in for Shannon Wolf,
our producer, and for all threeof us...
Owen (52:17):
...
saying (52:17):
May the God of our fathers bless you, and keep you,
and guide you, and protect you,until we meet again.
Owen and John (52:38):
Owen and John end the episode.
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