August 3, 2021 • 43 mins
What is happiness? How many people have it? Where does it come from? How do we keep it? This episode gives the facts about this elusive emotion. It reveals the role that happiness plays in the lives of Christians and non-Christians, and reveals why so few people ever find it.
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Episode Transcript
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John (00:00):
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome to Episode18 in our bi-weekly series of
"Saving Christianity." We'recoming to you
(00:21):
every-other-Tuesday fromChristian Family Online, and I'm
your host, John Shields.
Thanks for being with us! In theprevious Episode 17, you may
recall we talked about"TheMature Christian." And about how
a mature Christian is aChristian who has made a*habit
(00:41):
of being Spirit-filled.
In other words, a"mature"Christian is one whose habitual
main motivator is the*HolySpirit*.
Such Christians are doing whatthe apostle Paul called"Walking
in the Spirit.
And what we call"living theEarly Christian Lifestyle." And
(01:01):
so now, today we're at Episode18.
The title is:"The HappyChristian." In this episode, our
c o-host, O wen Allen and I--we're going to discuss what it
*feels like to live the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
Or, what it*feels like to dowhat Paul called walking in the
(01:22):
Spirit.
So let's get started, and bringin our c o-host, Owen A llen.
Owen, welcome to episode 18!
Owen (01:28):
Yo, John, glad to be here! A big"Hello" to you...
to our intrepid producer,Shannon...
and to all of our friends out inPodcast Land, whatever they're
doing at the moment (01:38):
Cooking in the kitchen; driving their car;
jogging and running in the park,whatever it may be.
Welcome to the podcast! Youknow, John, this is funny, but
to get us started, let's talkfor a minute about*dictionaries.
I checked, actually, several*dictionaries before the show to
(02:00):
find out how they define"happypeople."(Repeats.) And I found
some very interestingdefinitions.
One thing that they say:"Happypeople are pe ople who show
pleasure...
satisfaction...
and joy in their lifestyle.
And le t's stop a second.
(02:20):
Notice tha t wo rd"lifestyle."We keep talking about the Early
Christian*Lifestyle.
So what's happening here?
Let's go back:"Happy people arepe ople who show pleasure...
satisfaction...
and joy in their lifestyle."They're people who are warm...
and considerate...
and respectful...
helpful...
hopeful...
(02:40):
pleasant...
use optimistic words...
and who are optimistic thinkers.
Now, let's slow down a second.
Let's don't skate over this.
Let's read these definitionsagain, and after we read them, I
want to ask all of our friendsout in Podcast Land an honest
question.
(03:01):
So get ready for that question.
And here's the definition again: Happy people show pleasure, (03:03):
undefined
satisfaction, and joy in theirlifestyle.
They're warm, and considerate,respectful, and helpful,
hopeful, and pleasant.
And they use optimistic wordsand they think optimistically.
Think about those just a second.
(03:25):
And then here's the question.
Here's the question about thosedefinitions.
If you had to guess, what*percentage of the world's
population tells pollsters thatthey are*happy people*?
Maybe a hundred percent?
Maybe 80 percent?
Maybe 50 percent?
John (03:46):
Well, I think Owen...
I would think most of us wouldguess that that*most people tell
pollsters they're happy.
Is that the right answer?
Owen (03:59):
Well, John, I agree that most people probably think that
*most other people are happy.
But"No," that's not the rightanswer.
Worldwide polls reveal that only15 percent...
1-5...
*15 percent* of the world'spopulation tells pollsters
they're truly, really happy.
(04:19):
And that includes Americans.
John (04:23):
Wow, that's lower than I had expected, especially in the
U.S.
We always think about Americansas happy people.
Owen (04:29):
That's right, that's right.
But you know, John, I know fromexperience that you never know
what goes on"behind closeddoors." And in"the dark of
night," when people are lyingawake staring at the ceiling.
You never know what they'rethinking.
But now, let's tie theseworldwide polls to*Christianity.
(04:49):
Because*Christianity is oursubject and our theme in these
episodes.
John (04:55):
Yeah.
Well again, Owen, to answer thatquestion.
I think-- same answer-- thatmost of us would probably guess
that*most Christians are happy.
I'm afraid to ask.
Is that the right answer?
Owen (05:09):
(Chuckles.) They should be, wouldn't you think?
Wouldn't you think that*Christians would be happy
people?
Uh, I'm going to be rude, John,and answer a question with a
question.
We know from previous episodesthat the average Christian today
is*no more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
So if that's true, if theaverage Christian is no more
(05:32):
Spiritual, would that also meanthat the average Christian is no
more*happy than a non-Christian?
John (05:42):
Well, Owen, ahh, I think I'm going to turn my microphone
off on now.
It's starting to hurt.
Owen (05:48):
Well, but me too.
I mean it hurts.
It hurts to have to face thesepolls, John, and this research
that we do for these episodes.
But let's soldier on a minuteand be brave.
And let's think about it thisway.
What are the outer signs of ahappy person?
How do happy people behave?
(06:09):
And I think there's a commonsense answer.
And I think it's this (06:11):
Happy people-- this is what the
research shows--*happy peoplesmile a lot, laugh a lot, sing
and hum a lot.
They're stress-free, worry-free.
They're cheerful.
They're likable, right?
And so don't we all recognize ahappy person at the mall or in
the grocery store?
John (06:32):
Yeah, that's very true, Owen.
We actually...
we usually immediately recognizeand admire a happy person when
we see one.
Owen (06:41):
Yeah, I mean who can*hate a happy person?
(Laughter.) But then here'sanother interesting question
tied to that (06:47):
How many people do you know-- me, you, and our
friends that are listening rightthis second-- how many people do
you know who are happy that wayall day long?
Or, we could even ask that alittle different way: How many
(07:08):
*Christians do you know rightthis minute who ar e h appy that
way all day long?
John (07:15):
Um, I hate to admit it, but I don't...
I don't know a lot of people ineither category.
Owen (07:21):
Well, that's right.
Neither do I, John.
And let's zero in now on ourtarget of*Christians for the
rest of the episode.
Because the point we're tryingto make in this episode is the
power and the majesty of theFruit of the Spirit in
Christians.
We talked about that in theprevious episode.
(07:43):
That was the one with the title,"The Mature Christian." And we
said in that episode that themark, the sign, the trait, of a
"mature Christian" is that theybehave-- he or she behaves--
with the Fruit of the Spirit allday long.
But now we see a deeper truth.
(08:05):
Another way to define...
another way to define...
a"mature Christian" is that heor she is*happy all day, and
shows it.
John (08:17):
Yeah, in Episode 17-- I just remind us-- you know we
define the"Fruit of the Spirit"as an outer behavior of
supernatural love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, gentleness, andself-control, that all
(08:40):
Spirit-filled Christians have.
Owen (08:45):
Wow, that's tremendous, John.
And it's true.
But let's ask that a differentway.
Do those words, John, that youjust read, do those words sound
a lot like the same words the*dictionary is used to define
"happy" people?
John (08:59):
Yeah, well actually, they don't just"sound" like them.
Most of them are the*same words.
Owen (09:04):
Absolutely.
And there's a reason for that.
That was not an accident.
Because the Fruit of the Spiritthat floods up within us-- fills
us-- when the Holy Spirit ismoving in our lives is one of
the effects that makes us happy.
Christians are designed to be--hang on!-- The*happiest people
(09:28):
on earth.
And that's why we keep sayingthat when Christians are
Spirit-filled, they have"alittle bit of heaven here on
earth."
John (09:39):
So, on top of everything else...
make sure I understand...
being a Spirit-filled Christianis designed to make us*happy.
One of the biggest signs thatChristians are Spirit-filled, is
when they're openly andgenuinely happy.
Owen (09:55):
That's right-- and( inaudible) let me stick this in
sideways-- and that confusespeople.
If you're around somebody thatsmiles all the time, hums all
the time, chuckles all the time,that confuses a lot of people.
And they look at each other andsay,"What's wrong with him or
her?" They don't realize whathappened is sin.
(10:17):
Because the average person,frankly, is preoccupied,
stressed out, moody, sad,lonely, and those aren't
attractive traits.
And many*Christians are nothappy people.
They exhibit those(negative)traits.
And frankly, non-Christiansdon't like that very much.
(10:41):
So let's open the door up toyou, John.
As a full-time senior pastormost of your life really, what
has been your experience?
Do you find that most Christiansare*happy people?
John (10:57):
Owen, I'm afraid that all of my data would coincide with
what we've said about the polls,and that sort of thing.
I think it was Hannah WhitallSmith who wrote,"Christians are
often viewed like they have aheadache,(laughter) but they
(11:22):
don't want to cut their headoff."(Laughter.) Something like
that.
And unfortunately, w e...
I have seen a lot...
too much of that.
Owen (11:34):
Yeah.
Well, I totally agree, John.
And you know, we've talked a lotin these episodes about the
troubles in Christianity.
About congregations going out ofbusiness.
I heard of a new one this week.
"Church" buildings beingbulldozed to make room for
(11:54):
parking lots-- all of thosethings.
And you have to stop a minute toask yourself,"Hold it, hold it.
Would all of that be happeningwith crowds of*happy people?" If
you had 200 happy peoplelaughing and smiling and joyous,
humming and singing in a room--why would you have to bulldoze
(12:19):
that room?
It wouldn't be required.
And you know, John, something Ioften think about.
I don't know that I know muchabout country music.
But wasn't there once a countrymusic song something about
"looking for love and all thewrong places"?
(Laughter.) You stop and thinkabout it though, John.
All the negative things thatpeople do.
(12:42):
I mean alcohol abuse, drugabuse, sexual abuse, all of
that.
Probably if you went and asked aresearcher or a scientist, they
would say,"Well, you know whatthey're doing?
They're looking for*happiness."And I would put that in
Christian terms.
They don't know it,(but) they'relooking to be filled with the
(13:04):
power of the Spirit.
John (13:07):
Yeah, uh Owen, on a negative note-- but it makes the
point precisely-- my oldersister, who is in heaven.
I will never, ever forget this.
Years ago, she was dealing withsome pretty significant drug
addiction.
And I went to see her one timewhen she had gone into a rehab.
(13:31):
And as I sat by her bed that day, I was talking with her-- not
condemning her-- but just tryingto love her, and trying to
understand.
And I asked her, I said,"Youknow, what do you think brought
you to this place?
What was it in your life thatcaused you to kind of turn down
(13:52):
that road?" And she said,"Youknow, I used to be the life of
the party.
I was fun, and loved having funand laughing,*et cetera*.
"And then the different stressesof life and different things, I
started to lose that.
And I wanted that experience.
(14:12):
And so I found out that thesedrugs would for the moment give
me this euphoric, I guess,experience.
And that's what started me downthat path." And thankfully, you
know, she was able to workthrough that over the years.
(14:33):
And I'm thankful for that.
But nevertheless, your exampleof the things that we're talking
about-- if you're listeningtoday to our podcast-- may not
be that severe.
But nevertheless, I do thinkthat is the misplaced...
people are looking for somethingthat can't be found in the
(14:55):
"natural." And so they'redigging in...
you know, it says in the OldTestament-- we don't really
identify with this unless you'vegot a little bit of age on you--
but it says that you've madethis mistake: You're trying to
"dig your own cisterns."(Repeats.) In other words,
(15:16):
you're trying to have your ownplace to develop your own water.
And it has a crack.
It's leaking.
It's not working.
When you do it yourself, it'snot going to sustain you, in
other words, and I think that isso true.
Owen (15:35):
Well, isn't there an old saying about"digging in a dry
well"?
People who are looking for loveand all the wrong places are
"digging in a dry well." AndJohn, I would go so far as to
say this.
I think...
let's put it in the form of aquestion:"Do we think that human
(15:57):
nature, our Selfish, HumanNature, our nature that's prone
to negativity and sin, can it*ever make us happy?
Or, does happiness come from asource outside of us?"
John (16:15):
Yeah, Owen, we know not only does the Scripture say
that, what you just said isabsolutely 100 percent
undeniably true.
But we also know from-- all ofus know from our personal
experience-- that that is trueas well.
(16:35):
And unfortunately, we are tryingto help people to come to that
realization that you do not haveto waste your life, and time,
and energy, and resources,looking for something that you
will never find in the naturalrealm.
(16:55):
And trying to get that messageout in this podcast is just one
avenue.
Owen (17:01):
Well, you know, John, I think about the-- back in
American history-- theCalifornia Gold Rush.
What was that?
1848 a nd that period, upthrough 1900 or so?
But...
and you hear these stories aboutthose"prospectors," they were
called.
And they leave their home, theirfamily, their children,
(17:23):
everybody.
And they go looking for gold.
Looking for that wonderful GoldMine that they're going to find.
And they never do.
And they die alone out in theforest.
Or out in the mountainssomewhere, living in a little
hut, desperately looking for theGold Mine that they never found.
(17:44):
And sometimes...
I mean that's gruesome.
That's gory, I admit.
But sometimes I think thatthat's how we humans are.
You know, the bars are full.
The pornographic movies arefull.
Everything negative and bad is*full.
And so people are obviouslyseeking something.
(18:09):
They want to be*happy.
And it never occurs to them...
and I don't know, John, that Iwas ever told.
I don't remember ever being toldface-to-face, one-on-one:"You
know what?
If you want to be happy, youjust need to be a Christian.
But more specifically, you needto be a Spirit-filled Christian.
(18:31):
*That's happiness.
Not digging for gold in themountains."
John (18:34):
Yeah, that's for sure.
I can say the same thing, Owen.
I don't know that I was everdirectly told that as well.
And it's just so unfortunate--especially here in the United
States-- that we see so manypeople that are held up and...
you know, that have from amaterial sense everything that
life can offer.
And it appears that most oftheir lives, or many of their
(18:59):
lives, are an absolute shambles.
They don't seem to have anymeasure of peace or happiness in
their life.
But we're slow learners, aren'twe?
(Chuckles.) The natural personis a slow person to learn.
We always think we are anexception to the rule.
"Well,*they may not have beenable to discover it, but I think
(19:20):
*I'm probably different.
I will.
This is going to do it.
Or that's going to do it.
And then before we know it, youknow, the sunset's coming to our
life.
And you know, we never reachedit.
You know, I know you know, Owen,the famous line from John D.
Rockefeller was asked one day,"How much money is enough?" And
(19:43):
he said,"Well, just one moredollar, just one more dollar."
(Laughter and various comments.)
Owen (19:52):
Well, you know, it's a terrible thing, really.
Because I think there's a...
you hear the old story abouthumans have a"hole in their
heart" that they're trying tofill, and those type of images.
And so it...
what's a funny thing, John, Ithink I'm right on this.
I've read studies that mostdivorces start on vacation.
(20:12):
Think about that.
I mean, many people leave onvacation in one car and come
back in two( laughter)-- ordon't come back at all--
(laughter) or come back alone.
So, but I mean it's funny.
But it's not funny.
You know, it's telling us thatall the cockamamie(foolish)
(20:33):
things that we come up with aspeople, and as couples, and his
families, in our never endingsearch for happiness.
It's*futile.
It's*hopeless.
Because, I'll just put this way,happiness is a Spirit-filled
Christian, and a Spirit-filledChristian is happiness.
(20:54):
And nothing else is happiness,period.
John (20:56):
Right.
Everything else is going to comesecondary, on down the trail for
that, for sure.
You know, you just see that inour episodes.
That we're talking about, youknow, the"natural" person, and
contrasting that with theSpirit-filled person.
You know, we started out ourpodcast now 18 episodes ago.
(21:20):
And you know, Owen, we saidthere at the beginning that we
were going to...
we needed to talk about theproblem.
And we've done that, in manydifferent ways.
But we also said we wanted tofocus on the*solution.
And that's what has beenexciting, I think, for both of
(21:40):
us.
And hopefully, our listeners outthere.
I think, I feel like, thatyou're listening, you are
identifying with what we'resaying here in our podcast.
And I'm just thankful that there*is a solution.
And we're just trying to helppeople to know that there is--
there*is something.
There*is an answer to all ofthis.
(22:04):
And I don't say this casually.
I say it in the context of beingSpirit-filled.
When Jesus said that He camethat we might have*life, and
that we might have it more*abundantly.
That's what he was talkingabout, I think.
He was talking about theSpirit-filled life.
Owen (22:24):
In fact, John, if you look up that Greek word there in the
tenth chapter of John, and allthe other places that Jesus says
that, the actual Greek wordrefers to*Spiritual life.
That's one of the-- we won't gothere today-- but that's one of
the things that was a tremendousrevelation in my life, in my
30s, when I was introduced toGreek lessons.
(22:48):
I'd never thought about that.
I just read the Bible, read whatwas on the pages in the English
language, and took it the way Iwould take normal English
language.
So if somebody walked up to meand said,"How's your life
today?" I would think of that inhuman terms.
Well, you know, I'm gettingenough to eat.
I'm getting enough sleep.
(23:09):
Things are nice.
I've got a good job.
And it never occurred to me thatthat meant*Spiritual life!"How
Spiritual are you?""HowSpirit-filled are you?" is what
that Greek word meant.
So Jesus came to bring us*that.
And, as we're saying, with*thatis happiness.
(23:30):
I think it's interesting of the20 Fruit of the Spirit that we
talk about-- and we're going toget into those deeper in another
episode--"happiness" is*notlisted.
But when you put all of thosetogether: The love, the peace,
the gentleness, you realize,"Ouch.
My goodness.
That*is a 20-word definition of"happiness."
John (23:55):
Yeah, that is some good stuff.
No doubt about it.
And we just want to...
we want to walk in that, live inthat, reflect that.
And you know, I think about it,Jesus said,"Let your Light, let
your Light so shine." What didHe mean by that?
And you know, I think He meant...
Owen (24:15):
He didn't mean carry a flashlight!
John (24:19):
...
Right!(Laughter.) You know, Hemeant that people would actually
be able to see the witness, ifyou will, of your life.
The Spirit-filled life would be...
it would be illuminating.
It would be...
it would draw people to...
the*experience.
And so, it's just incredible.
(24:39):
It's...
the more you think about it anddig into it and live it...it's
just serendipity.
I mean, it's just constantlyfinding more and more.
Owen (24:48):
Deeper and deeper and better and better.
Well, and there you go again.
That word"Light" in Greek.
It doesn't mean...
(inaudible)...
lighting a candle.
It could mean that.
But the way Jesus used it, Hemeant Spiritual-- Spiritual
Light-- illumination in ourmind.
We talked earlier, in theprevious episode, about
(25:09):
"Spiritual things areSpiritually understood." And
that's what He meant.
Well you know, there's anotherthing too, about all of this.
A lot of people (25:18):
You*think they're happy.
You know, there's something inpersonalities that is called
"masking." Wearing of a"mask."And I'm not talking about what
we had with Covid-19.
When you...
people*pretend a personalitythat they don't really have.
(25:41):
And many times...
I don't know if you've ever seenthis, John and Shannon.
But many times, if you go to anevent-- maybe a wedding, for
example.
I just went to a wedding thispast weekend.
And what would appear to be the"happiest" people there-- the
ones that are laughing the most,and singing the most, and
(26:04):
jumping around the most, areactually the*saddest people in
the group.
It's a"mask" they're wearing.
They want everybody to*thinkthey're happy, and not realize
how miserable they are, see?
Then they go lock themselves inthe bathroom and cry.
Then they come out, and they'rehappy again.
(26:24):
And see, it's all fake humannature.
Human nature is not"naturally"--a double(chuckles) word there--*
happy.
Think about that a second.
Who would ever tell you that?
Human nature is not naturallyhappy.
(26:47):
What is naturally happy is beinga Spirit-filled Christian.
John (26:52):
Yeah, for sure.
Well Owen, why do you think...
well, I think maybe we've donesome of those...
answered some of that along theway.
But when I think about what we...
why doesn't InstitutionalChristianity teach more about
(27:14):
what we're talking about?
What is your short answer?
Owen (27:19):
Well, number one, a lot of them don't*have it.
They don't know what it*is.
As the old saying goes,"Youcan't sell out of an empty
wagon"...
"You can't give away what youdon't have to give away." But I
think, too, it all stems back ofcourse-- as we've said, John, so
(27:40):
many times-- all the way back tothe Fourth Century, when the
Roman emperor, Constantine,effectively in a 25-year
campaign, wiped out originalChristianity: Outlawed small
groups, forced Christians tostart attending large group
(28:02):
meetings, all that stuff thatwent on in that period of
history.
I think that everything just gotlost.
And you know, instead of under...
living happily, and emphasizingSpirit-filling, empha...
you know after the FourthCentury, John, the Fruit of the
(28:22):
Spirit became controversial.
The Gifts of the Spirit becamecontroversial.
People were actually punished ifthey were seen expressing Fruit
and Gifts.
All that kind of stuff.
And then it just became what?
It became a*program.
It became just go listen to alecture, get in your car, and go
(28:45):
home.
John (28:46):
With no bearing on your actual Life.
Owen (28:49):
And the stuff that matters
Being healed.
Being all the wonderful thingsthat we're talking about in this
episode-- having miracles inyour life.
My wife and I had one of themost wonderful miracles we've
ever had in the past 10 days.
(29:09):
Well you know, people should be*having miracles.
They get mad when I say it: Christians should be having (29:11):
undefined
miracles weekly-- at leastmonthly.
That's our inheritance.
That's our legacy.
That's why Jesus died, rose, andsent the Holy Spirit to us.
John (29:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I think about it, Owen, just tobe rather silly, probably.
Back to what you said about theFourth Century.
And today it's kind of like ifyou were standing at the end of
an assembly line.
But the template, the mold, ifyou will-- the model-- was to
(29:51):
make tables.
But at the end of the assemblyline, it was producing chairs.
(Laughter.) And you're, youknow,*perplexed by that.
Right?
You know, it's not producing.
But it's actually producing*exactly what the template was
(30:14):
designed to produce.
Owen (30:15):
And so, when you question it, they say,"Well, no, we've
got to produce what the templatesays."
John (30:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Even though it's not servinganyone, you know.
And as we say so often,yesterday-- I hate to keep going
back to this, but you mentionedit earlier-- yesterday I saw on
a local facility, a"church," afacility, that takes up a city
(30:42):
block here in town.
Multiple buildings.
A huge edifice.
Under...
in*foreclosure.
$2 million dollars, they'reasking.
There it is.
All of that brick and mortar.
And historically, I'm not surewhat it was.
(31:02):
But it m ust've been a placewhere people were at one time.
And now here it is underforeclosure and for sale.
It's so sad.
Owen (31:12):
Think about, John, the years of effort, money, work,
planning, all the stuff thatwent in the lives that were
lived in that building.
It's like walking to a"ghosttown," you know they call it.
My son, you know, lives out inArizona.
(31:33):
And he loves to get out andramble around.
And I didn't even know this.
And there are number of"ghosttowns." And he goes to them, and
walks around, and looks at thebuildings and things, and thinks
about, you know, who livedthere?
And what did they do?
When did they go?
And whatever happened to them?
I don't need to go to Arizona.
(31:54):
I can do that right here in myhometown.
There are three abandonedChristian"church" buildings
right close to my home.
I don't need to go to Arizona.
And the tragedy, though, is thesame.
I mean,*why?
We're talking about happiness.
We're talking about beingSpirit-filled.
*Why would those things happento Christians?
(32:17):
And the template is wrong.
We're looking at the wrongtemplate.
I so often think about, youknow, and so many Christians
don't*know.
And how do I know that?
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know'til I was in my30s, that the Early Christians
did*not meet in buildings inlarge groups, with a preacher,
(32:38):
and an altar, an organ, and hymnbooks, and a choir.
I thought they*did those thingsin the First Century.
And then, when I began to studyhistory formally and
professionally, and archaeology.
I found out to my astonishmentthat they didn't have*any of
that.
They met in small groups inhomes, informally, and they let
(33:01):
the Holy Spirit flow through thegroup.
And they had healings and allthe wonderful things that we're
talking about.
And frankly, that still can, anddoes, happen today.
But we have to break thetemplate.
Or we have to put the templateaside for another day.
(33:21):
And we have to go*do it the waythey did it then*.
John (33:25):
Yeah, Owen, don't you think though...
or maybe in the form of aquestion, is that: It seems that
what we're talking about is so*rare.
It's just such a rare, rarething.
There are pockets-- and evenvery few of them-- that we are
(33:47):
aware of.
And we don't say this as, howcan I say this, as arrogantly,
or as know-it-alls, or that sortof thing.
We say it with humility fromyears of experience.
And...
but...
don't even...
(34:08):
there's not even a recognitionof the problem and what's going
on.
And yet, as we've already saidtoday a couple of times, that we
see the*institution literallyslowly grinding to a halt.
And that's manifest throughforeclosures and empty
(34:31):
buildings.
And we're talking about what issupposed to be the"church" where
Jesus Christ is the cornerstoneof that.
(Chuckles.) Who*is life.
And so how in the world canthose two be together?
So, there's either somethingwrong with Jesus.
(34:53):
Or there's something wrong withus.
And I think I know what that is.
Absolutely.
(Laughter.)
Owen (35:00):
You know, it's an interesting thing.
I think we may have mentionedthis.
But when the Co...
in 2020, the year 2020, whenCovid-19 shut down the country,
and of course it shut down allChristian meetings.
All Christian congregations didnot meet for about a year.
(35:20):
Well, Gallup did a poll afterthe country reopened in 2021.
Gallup did a poll, and foundthat 20 percent of all those
congregations that were closedin 2020*never reopened*.
Think about that a second.
So the downslide keeps sliding.
(35:41):
And I just heard this week, aperson who goes to what's called
a"Mega-Church"-- we've talkedabout that in these episodes--
but that's a congregation thathas routinely 2,000 or more per
worship service.
(36:01):
Scientists call that a"Mega-Church." And I have a
friend who's active in o ne.
And he came to me a few daysago, eyes glowing, face radiant,
and he said,"You know, it's justwonderful.
Now that we've reopened," hesaid,"We have so many new
people!" And I said,"Really?
(36:22):
W here a re the old people?" Hesaid,"Well, you know, a lot of
them didn't come back.
But the thing is, we have suchwonderful new people!" And I
thought to myself,"Yeah, andguess where they came from.
They came from those 20 percentof the congregations that never
reopened." See, a few of thosemigrate to the"Mega-Churches."
(36:43):
Not all.
But a few.
So the total trend is still*down.
But why do they do that?
They don't do it becauseeverybody there is
Spirit-filled.
They do it because they haveScouts, and cook-outs, and bus
trips, and picnics, and all theprograms-- the*programs-- that
(37:04):
the big institutions have.
And yet of course, as we'vesaid, they're not Spiritual.
John (37:10):
Right.
And can simply maintain it, justby virtue of their size.
Owen (37:16):
And the survivors flocking in.
John (37:20):
Yeah, and the cash flow.
Yeah.
(Laughter.) It is so, so, so, sosad.
When the apostle Paul says thatwe are to be a"New Creation."
John and Owen (37:33):
Yeah.
Ahh.
Think about that.
Yeah, exactly.
Does t hat have meaning! Forsure.
A"New Creation"!
John (37:38):
What about when he said, "For me to live is Christ"?
Ahh.
Wow.
And we're just wanting to seethat spread more, and more, and
more.
Owen (37:49):
And, you know, John, I was thinking the other day about
Paul.
Where-- is it in Romans 8--where Paul says,"In me, there is
*no good thing." He says,"I meanin my*flesh." So think about
that.
All you folks listening righthere, wherever you are at the
moment.
In you and me, in our humanity,in our flesh, in our selfish
(38:13):
nature,*there is no good thing*.
The only good thing in us-- ifthere*is anything in us good--
is the indwelling power of theHoly Spirit, if we're
*Christians.
John (38:27):
Right.
Paul said it over and overagain,"Christ in me.
Christ in me."
Owen (38:33):
The hope of Glory.
Hope! Our only hope is the HolySpirit in us.
John (38:37):
"Hope that won't disappoint us," he says.
Owen (38:39):
Yeah, that.
And so, I guess what we'retrying to say in this episode is
that most people are*not happy.
Even if they act like they are,or think they are, or tell you
that they are.
They're really*not.
Because it's a physicalimpossibility.
(39:02):
And secondly, if there's anyhope for*happiness in this life,
it's being a*Christian.
But more than that, not aninfant Christian.
A Spiritually growing Christianwho's learning to"Walk in the
Spirit." What does that mean?
Who's learning to express Giftsand Fruit in their lives, and to
(39:24):
walk in a supernatural,miraculous realm that nobody
else can walk in, and nobodyelse can understand, but another
Spirit-filled Christian.
(Laughter.)"You can onlyunderstand Spiritual things
Spiritually," Paul taught us.
John (39:45):
Yeah, I was thinking, Owen, about this.
And something that's kind ofsilly.
But I will never forget in thatpassage of Scripture that you're
referring to, is in FirstCorinthians, in the second
chapter.
And it doesn't say that anunbeliever"doesn't" understand.
(40:06):
It says that they"can't." Theycan*not understand.
And for all of you dog loversout there, from my wonderful
little Golden Doodle(dog),sometimes when I'm standing in
the kitchen, and she's standingthere and looking at me, and I
start to talk to her.
Her little head just tilts tothe right, or tilts to the left.
(40:29):
And it's like,"I'm a dog andyou're my master.
And I have no idea what you'resaying.
(Chuckles.) I*can't understandit." Uh, and you know.
And that seems...
that sounds funny.
But it's the way it is in theSpirit.
It's that much of a differencebetween like me trying to talk
(40:50):
to my(chuckles) dog, or my dogtrying to talk to me.
It's physically impossible.
I mean, it can't happen.
So"the Spirit begets theSpirit."
Owen (41:00):
Yeah.
We're looking at God.
And our head's tilted left, andtilted right.
(Laughter.) And we're saying,"You're my Master.
What the Sam Hill are yousaying?
(Laughter.) You know, John, I got t o tell you this wonderful
story.
I once knew a very, verySpiritual man.
He was a retired militaryofficer.
I refer to him in my book, bythe way.
(41:22):
He was the first one that everstarted telling me about Early
Christian history.
And anyway, he tells a storythat was*before he was a
Christian, he owned a Bible.
He would try to read it.
And it d idn't make any sense tohim.
So one day, he went to hisbedroom, and he knelt by the
bed.
And he prayed, and he said,"God,why d id Y ou write a book that
(41:44):
nobody can*understand?" Thinkabout that.
And then he got up and went hisway.
A nd o f course, he ended up asa Spirit-filled Christian.
And one are the most insightful,Spiritual people-- he's in
heaven now-- that I ever met.
But I could see that image ofthis retired military officer
(42:06):
kneeling by the bed and praying,"God, why did You write a book
that nobody can*understand?" Ifthat doesn't prove First
Corinthians 2:14, I don't knowanything that does.
Well,(I can see) the big clockon the wall from where I'm
sitting.
And it's telling us that ourtime is up.
(42:27):
But you know...
I don't know, John.
I think this is...
I guess I say this every time wemeet.
But I think this is one of themost important episodes that
people, our dear friends, neededto hear.
John (42:41):
Yeah, I agree.
And I just want to remind ourfriends that this is Episode 18,
and that a script and arecording is available on our
website at (42:51):
www.goSCpod.com.
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
Owen (43:00):
Yeah.
Standing for:"Go SavingChristianity Pod." SC pod.
Well, u h, I hate to sign off,John.
But in the meantime, this isOwen Allen...
John (43:12):
...
and this is John Shields,speaking for me, and for our
producer, Shannon Wolf...
Owen (43:18):
...
saying (43:18):
May the God of our fathers, bless you, and keep
you, and guide you, and protectyou, until we meet again.
Owen and John (43:41):
Owen and John end the episode.
John Shields opens the episode by saying
friends, and welcome to Episode18 in our bi-weekly series of
"Saving Christianity." We'recoming to you
(00:21):
every-other-Tuesday fromChristian Family Online, and I'm
your host, John Shields.
Thanks for being with us! In theprevious Episode 17, you may
recall we talked about"TheMature Christian." And about how
a mature Christian is aChristian who has made a*habit
(00:41):
of being Spirit-filled.
In other words, a"mature"Christian is one whose habitual
main motivator is the*HolySpirit*.
Such Christians are doing whatthe apostle Paul called"Walking
in the Spirit.
And what we call"living theEarly Christian Lifestyle." And
(01:01):
so now, today we're at Episode18.
The title is:"The HappyChristian." In this episode, our
c o-host, O wen Allen and I--we're going to discuss what it
*feels like to live the EarlyChristian Lifestyle.
Or, what it*feels like to dowhat Paul called walking in the
(01:22):
Spirit.
So let's get started, and bringin our c o-host, Owen A llen.
Owen, welcome to episode 18!
Owen (01:28):
Yo, John, glad to be here! A big"Hello" to you...
to our intrepid producer,Shannon...
and to all of our friends out inPodcast Land, whatever they're
doing at the moment (01:38):
Cooking in the kitchen; driving their car;
jogging and running in the park,whatever it may be.
Welcome to the podcast! Youknow, John, this is funny, but
to get us started, let's talkfor a minute about*dictionaries.
I checked, actually, several*dictionaries before the show to
(02:00):
find out how they define"happypeople."(Repeats.) And I found
some very interestingdefinitions.
One thing that they say:"Happypeople are pe ople who show
pleasure...
satisfaction...
and joy in their lifestyle.
And le t's stop a second.
(02:20):
Notice tha t wo rd"lifestyle."We keep talking about the Early
Christian*Lifestyle.
So what's happening here?
Let's go back:"Happy people arepe ople who show pleasure...
satisfaction...
and joy in their lifestyle."They're people who are warm...
and considerate...
and respectful...
helpful...
hopeful...
(02:40):
pleasant...
use optimistic words...
and who are optimistic thinkers.
Now, let's slow down a second.
Let's don't skate over this.
Let's read these definitionsagain, and after we read them, I
want to ask all of our friendsout in Podcast Land an honest
question.
(03:01):
So get ready for that question.
And here's the definition again: Happy people show pleasure, (03:03):
undefined
satisfaction, and joy in theirlifestyle.
They're warm, and considerate,respectful, and helpful,
hopeful, and pleasant.
And they use optimistic wordsand they think optimistically.
Think about those just a second.
(03:25):
And then here's the question.
Here's the question about thosedefinitions.
If you had to guess, what*percentage of the world's
population tells pollsters thatthey are*happy people*?
Maybe a hundred percent?
Maybe 80 percent?
Maybe 50 percent?
John (03:46):
Well, I think Owen...
I would think most of us wouldguess that that*most people tell
pollsters they're happy.
Is that the right answer?
Owen (03:59):
Well, John, I agree that most people probably think that
*most other people are happy.
But"No," that's not the rightanswer.
Worldwide polls reveal that only15 percent...
1-5...
*15 percent* of the world'spopulation tells pollsters
they're truly, really happy.
(04:19):
And that includes Americans.
John (04:23):
Wow, that's lower than I had expected, especially in the
U.S.
We always think about Americansas happy people.
Owen (04:29):
That's right, that's right.
But you know, John, I know fromexperience that you never know
what goes on"behind closeddoors." And in"the dark of
night," when people are lyingawake staring at the ceiling.
You never know what they'rethinking.
But now, let's tie theseworldwide polls to*Christianity.
(04:49):
Because*Christianity is oursubject and our theme in these
episodes.
John (04:55):
Yeah.
Well again, Owen, to answer thatquestion.
I think-- same answer-- thatmost of us would probably guess
that*most Christians are happy.
I'm afraid to ask.
Is that the right answer?
Owen (05:09):
(Chuckles.) They should be, wouldn't you think?
Wouldn't you think that*Christians would be happy
people?
Uh, I'm going to be rude, John,and answer a question with a
question.
We know from previous episodesthat the average Christian today
is*no more Spiritual than anon-Christian.
So if that's true, if theaverage Christian is no more
(05:32):
Spiritual, would that also meanthat the average Christian is no
more*happy than a non-Christian?
John (05:42):
Well, Owen, ahh, I think I'm going to turn my microphone
off on now.
It's starting to hurt.
Owen (05:48):
Well, but me too.
I mean it hurts.
It hurts to have to face thesepolls, John, and this research
that we do for these episodes.
But let's soldier on a minuteand be brave.
And let's think about it thisway.
What are the outer signs of ahappy person?
How do happy people behave?
(06:09):
And I think there's a commonsense answer.
And I think it's this (06:11):
Happy people-- this is what the
research shows--*happy peoplesmile a lot, laugh a lot, sing
and hum a lot.
They're stress-free, worry-free.
They're cheerful.
They're likable, right?
And so don't we all recognize ahappy person at the mall or in
the grocery store?
John (06:32):
Yeah, that's very true, Owen.
We actually...
we usually immediately recognizeand admire a happy person when
we see one.
Owen (06:41):
Yeah, I mean who can*hate a happy person?
(Laughter.) But then here'sanother interesting question
tied to that (06:47):
How many people do you know-- me, you, and our
friends that are listening rightthis second-- how many people do
you know who are happy that wayall day long?
Or, we could even ask that alittle different way: How many
(07:08):
*Christians do you know rightthis minute who ar e h appy that
way all day long?
John (07:15):
Um, I hate to admit it, but I don't...
I don't know a lot of people ineither category.
Owen (07:21):
Well, that's right.
Neither do I, John.
And let's zero in now on ourtarget of*Christians for the
rest of the episode.
Because the point we're tryingto make in this episode is the
power and the majesty of theFruit of the Spirit in
Christians.
We talked about that in theprevious episode.
(07:43):
That was the one with the title,"The Mature Christian." And we
said in that episode that themark, the sign, the trait, of a
"mature Christian" is that theybehave-- he or she behaves--
with the Fruit of the Spirit allday long.
But now we see a deeper truth.
(08:05):
Another way to define...
another way to define...
a"mature Christian" is that heor she is*happy all day, and
shows it.
John (08:17):
Yeah, in Episode 17-- I just remind us-- you know we
define the"Fruit of the Spirit"as an outer behavior of
supernatural love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, gentleness, andself-control, that all
(08:40):
Spirit-filled Christians have.
Owen (08:45):
Wow, that's tremendous, John.
And it's true.
But let's ask that a differentway.
Do those words, John, that youjust read, do those words sound
a lot like the same words the*dictionary is used to define
"happy" people?
John (08:59):
Yeah, well actually, they don't just"sound" like them.
Most of them are the*same words.
Owen (09:04):
Absolutely.
And there's a reason for that.
That was not an accident.
Because the Fruit of the Spiritthat floods up within us-- fills
us-- when the Holy Spirit ismoving in our lives is one of
the effects that makes us happy.
Christians are designed to be--hang on!-- The*happiest people
(09:28):
on earth.
And that's why we keep sayingthat when Christians are
Spirit-filled, they have"alittle bit of heaven here on
earth."
John (09:39):
So, on top of everything else...
make sure I understand...
being a Spirit-filled Christianis designed to make us*happy.
One of the biggest signs thatChristians are Spirit-filled, is
when they're openly andgenuinely happy.
Owen (09:55):
That's right-- and( inaudible) let me stick this in
sideways-- and that confusespeople.
If you're around somebody thatsmiles all the time, hums all
the time, chuckles all the time,that confuses a lot of people.
And they look at each other andsay,"What's wrong with him or
her?" They don't realize whathappened is sin.
(10:17):
Because the average person,frankly, is preoccupied,
stressed out, moody, sad,lonely, and those aren't
attractive traits.
And many*Christians are nothappy people.
They exhibit those(negative)traits.
And frankly, non-Christiansdon't like that very much.
(10:41):
So let's open the door up toyou, John.
As a full-time senior pastormost of your life really, what
has been your experience?
Do you find that most Christiansare*happy people?
John (10:57):
Owen, I'm afraid that all of my data would coincide with
what we've said about the polls,and that sort of thing.
I think it was Hannah WhitallSmith who wrote,"Christians are
often viewed like they have aheadache,(laughter) but they
(11:22):
don't want to cut their headoff."(Laughter.) Something like
that.
And unfortunately, w e...
I have seen a lot...
too much of that.
Owen (11:34):
Yeah.
Well, I totally agree, John.
And you know, we've talked a lotin these episodes about the
troubles in Christianity.
About congregations going out ofbusiness.
I heard of a new one this week.
"Church" buildings beingbulldozed to make room for
(11:54):
parking lots-- all of thosethings.
And you have to stop a minute toask yourself,"Hold it, hold it.
Would all of that be happeningwith crowds of*happy people?" If
you had 200 happy peoplelaughing and smiling and joyous,
humming and singing in a room--why would you have to bulldoze
(12:19):
that room?
It wouldn't be required.
And you know, John, something Ioften think about.
I don't know that I know muchabout country music.
But wasn't there once a countrymusic song something about
"looking for love and all thewrong places"?
(Laughter.) You stop and thinkabout it though, John.
All the negative things thatpeople do.
(12:42):
I mean alcohol abuse, drugabuse, sexual abuse, all of
that.
Probably if you went and asked aresearcher or a scientist, they
would say,"Well, you know whatthey're doing?
They're looking for*happiness."And I would put that in
Christian terms.
They don't know it,(but) they'relooking to be filled with the
(13:04):
power of the Spirit.
John (13:07):
Yeah, uh Owen, on a negative note-- but it makes the
point precisely-- my oldersister, who is in heaven.
I will never, ever forget this.
Years ago, she was dealing withsome pretty significant drug
addiction.
And I went to see her one timewhen she had gone into a rehab.
(13:31):
And as I sat by her bed that day, I was talking with her-- not
condemning her-- but just tryingto love her, and trying to
understand.
And I asked her, I said,"Youknow, what do you think brought
you to this place?
What was it in your life thatcaused you to kind of turn down
(13:52):
that road?" And she said,"Youknow, I used to be the life of
the party.
I was fun, and loved having funand laughing,*et cetera*.
"And then the different stressesof life and different things, I
started to lose that.
And I wanted that experience.
(14:12):
And so I found out that thesedrugs would for the moment give
me this euphoric, I guess,experience.
And that's what started me downthat path." And thankfully, you
know, she was able to workthrough that over the years.
(14:33):
And I'm thankful for that.
But nevertheless, your exampleof the things that we're talking
about-- if you're listeningtoday to our podcast-- may not
be that severe.
But nevertheless, I do thinkthat is the misplaced...
people are looking for somethingthat can't be found in the
(14:55):
"natural." And so they'redigging in...
you know, it says in the OldTestament-- we don't really
identify with this unless you'vegot a little bit of age on you--
but it says that you've madethis mistake: You're trying to
"dig your own cisterns."(Repeats.) In other words,
(15:16):
you're trying to have your ownplace to develop your own water.
And it has a crack.
It's leaking.
It's not working.
When you do it yourself, it'snot going to sustain you, in
other words, and I think that isso true.
Owen (15:35):
Well, isn't there an old saying about"digging in a dry
well"?
People who are looking for loveand all the wrong places are
"digging in a dry well." AndJohn, I would go so far as to
say this.
I think...
let's put it in the form of aquestion:"Do we think that human
(15:57):
nature, our Selfish, HumanNature, our nature that's prone
to negativity and sin, can it*ever make us happy?
Or, does happiness come from asource outside of us?"
John (16:15):
Yeah, Owen, we know not only does the Scripture say
that, what you just said isabsolutely 100 percent
undeniably true.
But we also know from-- all ofus know from our personal
experience-- that that is trueas well.
(16:35):
And unfortunately, we are tryingto help people to come to that
realization that you do not haveto waste your life, and time,
and energy, and resources,looking for something that you
will never find in the naturalrealm.
(16:55):
And trying to get that messageout in this podcast is just one
avenue.
Owen (17:01):
Well, you know, John, I think about the-- back in
American history-- theCalifornia Gold Rush.
What was that?
1848 a nd that period, upthrough 1900 or so?
But...
and you hear these stories aboutthose"prospectors," they were
called.
And they leave their home, theirfamily, their children,
(17:23):
everybody.
And they go looking for gold.
Looking for that wonderful GoldMine that they're going to find.
And they never do.
And they die alone out in theforest.
Or out in the mountainssomewhere, living in a little
hut, desperately looking for theGold Mine that they never found.
(17:44):
And sometimes...
I mean that's gruesome.
That's gory, I admit.
But sometimes I think thatthat's how we humans are.
You know, the bars are full.
The pornographic movies arefull.
Everything negative and bad is*full.
And so people are obviouslyseeking something.
(18:09):
They want to be*happy.
And it never occurs to them...
and I don't know, John, that Iwas ever told.
I don't remember ever being toldface-to-face, one-on-one:"You
know what?
If you want to be happy, youjust need to be a Christian.
But more specifically, you needto be a Spirit-filled Christian.
(18:31):
*That's happiness.
Not digging for gold in themountains."
John (18:34):
Yeah, that's for sure.
I can say the same thing, Owen.
I don't know that I was everdirectly told that as well.
And it's just so unfortunate--especially here in the United
States-- that we see so manypeople that are held up and...
you know, that have from amaterial sense everything that
life can offer.
And it appears that most oftheir lives, or many of their
(18:59):
lives, are an absolute shambles.
They don't seem to have anymeasure of peace or happiness in
their life.
But we're slow learners, aren'twe?
(Chuckles.) The natural personis a slow person to learn.
We always think we are anexception to the rule.
"Well,*they may not have beenable to discover it, but I think
(19:20):
*I'm probably different.
I will.
This is going to do it.
Or that's going to do it.
And then before we know it, youknow, the sunset's coming to our
life.
And you know, we never reachedit.
You know, I know you know, Owen,the famous line from John D.
Rockefeller was asked one day,"How much money is enough?" And
(19:43):
he said,"Well, just one moredollar, just one more dollar."
(Laughter and various comments.)
Owen (19:52):
Well, you know, it's a terrible thing, really.
Because I think there's a...
you hear the old story abouthumans have a"hole in their
heart" that they're trying tofill, and those type of images.
And so it...
what's a funny thing, John, Ithink I'm right on this.
I've read studies that mostdivorces start on vacation.
(20:12):
Think about that.
I mean, many people leave onvacation in one car and come
back in two( laughter)-- ordon't come back at all--
(laughter) or come back alone.
So, but I mean it's funny.
But it's not funny.
You know, it's telling us thatall the cockamamie(foolish)
(20:33):
things that we come up with aspeople, and as couples, and his
families, in our never endingsearch for happiness.
It's*futile.
It's*hopeless.
Because, I'll just put this way,happiness is a Spirit-filled
Christian, and a Spirit-filledChristian is happiness.
(20:54):
And nothing else is happiness,period.
John (20:56):
Right.
Everything else is going to comesecondary, on down the trail for
that, for sure.
You know, you just see that inour episodes.
That we're talking about, youknow, the"natural" person, and
contrasting that with theSpirit-filled person.
You know, we started out ourpodcast now 18 episodes ago.
(21:20):
And you know, Owen, we saidthere at the beginning that we
were going to...
we needed to talk about theproblem.
And we've done that, in manydifferent ways.
But we also said we wanted tofocus on the*solution.
And that's what has beenexciting, I think, for both of
(21:40):
us.
And hopefully, our listeners outthere.
I think, I feel like, thatyou're listening, you are
identifying with what we'resaying here in our podcast.
And I'm just thankful that there*is a solution.
And we're just trying to helppeople to know that there is--
there*is something.
There*is an answer to all ofthis.
(22:04):
And I don't say this casually.
I say it in the context of beingSpirit-filled.
When Jesus said that He camethat we might have*life, and
that we might have it more*abundantly.
That's what he was talkingabout, I think.
He was talking about theSpirit-filled life.
Owen (22:24):
In fact, John, if you look up that Greek word there in the
tenth chapter of John, and allthe other places that Jesus says
that, the actual Greek wordrefers to*Spiritual life.
That's one of the-- we won't gothere today-- but that's one of
the things that was a tremendousrevelation in my life, in my
30s, when I was introduced toGreek lessons.
(22:48):
I'd never thought about that.
I just read the Bible, read whatwas on the pages in the English
language, and took it the way Iwould take normal English
language.
So if somebody walked up to meand said,"How's your life
today?" I would think of that inhuman terms.
Well, you know, I'm gettingenough to eat.
I'm getting enough sleep.
(23:09):
Things are nice.
I've got a good job.
And it never occurred to me thatthat meant*Spiritual life!"How
Spiritual are you?""HowSpirit-filled are you?" is what
that Greek word meant.
So Jesus came to bring us*that.
And, as we're saying, with*thatis happiness.
(23:30):
I think it's interesting of the20 Fruit of the Spirit that we
talk about-- and we're going toget into those deeper in another
episode--"happiness" is*notlisted.
But when you put all of thosetogether: The love, the peace,
the gentleness, you realize,"Ouch.
My goodness.
That*is a 20-word definition of"happiness."
John (23:55):
Yeah, that is some good stuff.
No doubt about it.
And we just want to...
we want to walk in that, live inthat, reflect that.
And you know, I think about it,Jesus said,"Let your Light, let
your Light so shine." What didHe mean by that?
And you know, I think He meant...
Owen (24:15):
He didn't mean carry a flashlight!
John (24:19):
...
Right!(Laughter.) You know, Hemeant that people would actually
be able to see the witness, ifyou will, of your life.
The Spirit-filled life would be...
it would be illuminating.
It would be...
it would draw people to...
the*experience.
And so, it's just incredible.
(24:39):
It's...
the more you think about it anddig into it and live it...it's
just serendipity.
I mean, it's just constantlyfinding more and more.
Owen (24:48):
Deeper and deeper and better and better.
Well, and there you go again.
That word"Light" in Greek.
It doesn't mean...
(inaudible)...
lighting a candle.
It could mean that.
But the way Jesus used it, Hemeant Spiritual-- Spiritual
Light-- illumination in ourmind.
We talked earlier, in theprevious episode, about
(25:09):
"Spiritual things areSpiritually understood." And
that's what He meant.
Well you know, there's anotherthing too, about all of this.
A lot of people (25:18):
You*think they're happy.
You know, there's something inpersonalities that is called
"masking." Wearing of a"mask."And I'm not talking about what
we had with Covid-19.
When you...
people*pretend a personalitythat they don't really have.
(25:41):
And many times...
I don't know if you've ever seenthis, John and Shannon.
But many times, if you go to anevent-- maybe a wedding, for
example.
I just went to a wedding thispast weekend.
And what would appear to be the"happiest" people there-- the
ones that are laughing the most,and singing the most, and
(26:04):
jumping around the most, areactually the*saddest people in
the group.
It's a"mask" they're wearing.
They want everybody to*thinkthey're happy, and not realize
how miserable they are, see?
Then they go lock themselves inthe bathroom and cry.
Then they come out, and they'rehappy again.
(26:24):
And see, it's all fake humannature.
Human nature is not"naturally"--a double(chuckles) word there--*
happy.
Think about that a second.
Who would ever tell you that?
Human nature is not naturallyhappy.
(26:47):
What is naturally happy is beinga Spirit-filled Christian.
John (26:52):
Yeah, for sure.
Well Owen, why do you think...
well, I think maybe we've donesome of those...
answered some of that along theway.
But when I think about what we...
why doesn't InstitutionalChristianity teach more about
(27:14):
what we're talking about?
What is your short answer?
Owen (27:19):
Well, number one, a lot of them don't*have it.
They don't know what it*is.
As the old saying goes,"Youcan't sell out of an empty
wagon"...
"You can't give away what youdon't have to give away." But I
think, too, it all stems back ofcourse-- as we've said, John, so
(27:40):
many times-- all the way back tothe Fourth Century, when the
Roman emperor, Constantine,effectively in a 25-year
campaign, wiped out originalChristianity: Outlawed small
groups, forced Christians tostart attending large group
(28:02):
meetings, all that stuff thatwent on in that period of
history.
I think that everything just gotlost.
And you know, instead of under...
living happily, and emphasizingSpirit-filling, empha...
you know after the FourthCentury, John, the Fruit of the
(28:22):
Spirit became controversial.
The Gifts of the Spirit becamecontroversial.
People were actually punished ifthey were seen expressing Fruit
and Gifts.
All that kind of stuff.
And then it just became what?
It became a*program.
It became just go listen to alecture, get in your car, and go
(28:45):
home.
John (28:46):
With no bearing on your actual Life.
Owen (28:49):
And the stuff that matters
Being healed.
Being all the wonderful thingsthat we're talking about in this
episode-- having miracles inyour life.
My wife and I had one of themost wonderful miracles we've
ever had in the past 10 days.
(29:09):
Well you know, people should be*having miracles.
They get mad when I say it: Christians should be having (29:11):
undefined
miracles weekly-- at leastmonthly.
That's our inheritance.
That's our legacy.
That's why Jesus died, rose, andsent the Holy Spirit to us.
John (29:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I think about it, Owen, just tobe rather silly, probably.
Back to what you said about theFourth Century.
And today it's kind of like ifyou were standing at the end of
an assembly line.
But the template, the mold, ifyou will-- the model-- was to
(29:51):
make tables.
But at the end of the assemblyline, it was producing chairs.
(Laughter.) And you're, youknow,*perplexed by that.
Right?
You know, it's not producing.
But it's actually producing*exactly what the template was
(30:14):
designed to produce.
Owen (30:15):
And so, when you question it, they say,"Well, no, we've
got to produce what the templatesays."
John (30:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Even though it's not servinganyone, you know.
And as we say so often,yesterday-- I hate to keep going
back to this, but you mentionedit earlier-- yesterday I saw on
a local facility, a"church," afacility, that takes up a city
(30:42):
block here in town.
Multiple buildings.
A huge edifice.
Under...
in*foreclosure.
$2 million dollars, they'reasking.
There it is.
All of that brick and mortar.
And historically, I'm not surewhat it was.
(31:02):
But it m ust've been a placewhere people were at one time.
And now here it is underforeclosure and for sale.
It's so sad.
Owen (31:12):
Think about, John, the years of effort, money, work,
planning, all the stuff thatwent in the lives that were
lived in that building.
It's like walking to a"ghosttown," you know they call it.
My son, you know, lives out inArizona.
(31:33):
And he loves to get out andramble around.
And I didn't even know this.
And there are number of"ghosttowns." And he goes to them, and
walks around, and looks at thebuildings and things, and thinks
about, you know, who livedthere?
And what did they do?
When did they go?
And whatever happened to them?
I don't need to go to Arizona.
(31:54):
I can do that right here in myhometown.
There are three abandonedChristian"church" buildings
right close to my home.
I don't need to go to Arizona.
And the tragedy, though, is thesame.
I mean,*why?
We're talking about happiness.
We're talking about beingSpirit-filled.
*Why would those things happento Christians?
(32:17):
And the template is wrong.
We're looking at the wrongtemplate.
I so often think about, youknow, and so many Christians
don't*know.
And how do I know that?
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know'til I was in my30s, that the Early Christians
did*not meet in buildings inlarge groups, with a preacher,
(32:38):
and an altar, an organ, and hymnbooks, and a choir.
I thought they*did those thingsin the First Century.
And then, when I began to studyhistory formally and
professionally, and archaeology.
I found out to my astonishmentthat they didn't have*any of
that.
They met in small groups inhomes, informally, and they let
(33:01):
the Holy Spirit flow through thegroup.
And they had healings and allthe wonderful things that we're
talking about.
And frankly, that still can, anddoes, happen today.
But we have to break thetemplate.
Or we have to put the templateaside for another day.
(33:21):
And we have to go*do it the waythey did it then*.
John (33:25):
Yeah, Owen, don't you think though...
or maybe in the form of aquestion, is that: It seems that
what we're talking about is so*rare.
It's just such a rare, rarething.
There are pockets-- and evenvery few of them-- that we are
(33:47):
aware of.
And we don't say this as, howcan I say this, as arrogantly,
or as know-it-alls, or that sortof thing.
We say it with humility fromyears of experience.
And...
but...
don't even...
(34:08):
there's not even a recognitionof the problem and what's going
on.
And yet, as we've already saidtoday a couple of times, that we
see the*institution literallyslowly grinding to a halt.
And that's manifest throughforeclosures and empty
(34:31):
buildings.
And we're talking about what issupposed to be the"church" where
Jesus Christ is the cornerstoneof that.
(Chuckles.) Who*is life.
And so how in the world canthose two be together?
So, there's either somethingwrong with Jesus.
(34:53):
Or there's something wrong withus.
And I think I know what that is.
Absolutely.
(Laughter.)
Owen (35:00):
You know, it's an interesting thing.
I think we may have mentionedthis.
But when the Co...
in 2020, the year 2020, whenCovid-19 shut down the country,
and of course it shut down allChristian meetings.
All Christian congregations didnot meet for about a year.
(35:20):
Well, Gallup did a poll afterthe country reopened in 2021.
Gallup did a poll, and foundthat 20 percent of all those
congregations that were closedin 2020*never reopened*.
Think about that a second.
So the downslide keeps sliding.
(35:41):
And I just heard this week, aperson who goes to what's called
a"Mega-Church"-- we've talkedabout that in these episodes--
but that's a congregation thathas routinely 2,000 or more per
worship service.
(36:01):
Scientists call that a"Mega-Church." And I have a
friend who's active in o ne.
And he came to me a few daysago, eyes glowing, face radiant,
and he said,"You know, it's justwonderful.
Now that we've reopened," hesaid,"We have so many new
people!" And I said,"Really?
(36:22):
W here a re the old people?" Hesaid,"Well, you know, a lot of
them didn't come back.
But the thing is, we have suchwonderful new people!" And I
thought to myself,"Yeah, andguess where they came from.
They came from those 20 percentof the congregations that never
reopened." See, a few of thosemigrate to the"Mega-Churches."
(36:43):
Not all.
But a few.
So the total trend is still*down.
But why do they do that?
They don't do it becauseeverybody there is
Spirit-filled.
They do it because they haveScouts, and cook-outs, and bus
trips, and picnics, and all theprograms-- the*programs-- that
(37:04):
the big institutions have.
And yet of course, as we'vesaid, they're not Spiritual.
John (37:10):
Right.
And can simply maintain it, justby virtue of their size.
Owen (37:16):
And the survivors flocking in.
John (37:20):
Yeah, and the cash flow.
Yeah.
(Laughter.) It is so, so, so, sosad.
When the apostle Paul says thatwe are to be a"New Creation."
John and Owen (37:33):
Yeah.
Ahh.
Think about that.
Yeah, exactly.
Does t hat have meaning! Forsure.
A"New Creation"!
John (37:38):
What about when he said, "For me to live is Christ"?
Ahh.
Wow.
And we're just wanting to seethat spread more, and more, and
more.
Owen (37:49):
And, you know, John, I was thinking the other day about
Paul.
Where-- is it in Romans 8--where Paul says,"In me, there is
*no good thing." He says,"I meanin my*flesh." So think about
that.
All you folks listening righthere, wherever you are at the
moment.
In you and me, in our humanity,in our flesh, in our selfish
(38:13):
nature,*there is no good thing*.
The only good thing in us-- ifthere*is anything in us good--
is the indwelling power of theHoly Spirit, if we're
*Christians.
John (38:27):
Right.
Paul said it over and overagain,"Christ in me.
Christ in me."
Owen (38:33):
The hope of Glory.
Hope! Our only hope is the HolySpirit in us.
John (38:37):
"Hope that won't disappoint us," he says.
Owen (38:39):
Yeah, that.
And so, I guess what we'retrying to say in this episode is
that most people are*not happy.
Even if they act like they are,or think they are, or tell you
that they are.
They're really*not.
Because it's a physicalimpossibility.
(39:02):
And secondly, if there's anyhope for*happiness in this life,
it's being a*Christian.
But more than that, not aninfant Christian.
A Spiritually growing Christianwho's learning to"Walk in the
Spirit." What does that mean?
Who's learning to express Giftsand Fruit in their lives, and to
(39:24):
walk in a supernatural,miraculous realm that nobody
else can walk in, and nobodyelse can understand, but another
Spirit-filled Christian.
(Laughter.)"You can onlyunderstand Spiritual things
Spiritually," Paul taught us.
John (39:45):
Yeah, I was thinking, Owen, about this.
And something that's kind ofsilly.
But I will never forget in thatpassage of Scripture that you're
referring to, is in FirstCorinthians, in the second
chapter.
And it doesn't say that anunbeliever"doesn't" understand.
(40:06):
It says that they"can't." Theycan*not understand.
And for all of you dog loversout there, from my wonderful
little Golden Doodle(dog),sometimes when I'm standing in
the kitchen, and she's standingthere and looking at me, and I
start to talk to her.
Her little head just tilts tothe right, or tilts to the left.
(40:29):
And it's like,"I'm a dog andyou're my master.
And I have no idea what you'resaying.
(Chuckles.) I*can't understandit." Uh, and you know.
And that seems...
that sounds funny.
But it's the way it is in theSpirit.
It's that much of a differencebetween like me trying to talk
(40:50):
to my(chuckles) dog, or my dogtrying to talk to me.
It's physically impossible.
I mean, it can't happen.
So"the Spirit begets theSpirit."
Owen (41:00):
Yeah.
We're looking at God.
And our head's tilted left, andtilted right.
(Laughter.) And we're saying,"You're my Master.
What the Sam Hill are yousaying?
(Laughter.) You know, John, I got t o tell you this wonderful
story.
I once knew a very, verySpiritual man.
He was a retired militaryofficer.
I refer to him in my book, bythe way.
(41:22):
He was the first one that everstarted telling me about Early
Christian history.
And anyway, he tells a storythat was*before he was a
Christian, he owned a Bible.
He would try to read it.
And it d idn't make any sense tohim.
So one day, he went to hisbedroom, and he knelt by the
bed.
And he prayed, and he said,"God,why d id Y ou write a book that
(41:44):
nobody can*understand?" Thinkabout that.
And then he got up and went hisway.
A nd o f course, he ended up asa Spirit-filled Christian.
And one are the most insightful,Spiritual people-- he's in
heaven now-- that I ever met.
But I could see that image ofthis retired military officer
(42:06):
kneeling by the bed and praying,"God, why did You write a book
that nobody can*understand?" Ifthat doesn't prove First
Corinthians 2:14, I don't knowanything that does.
Well,(I can see) the big clockon the wall from where I'm
sitting.
And it's telling us that ourtime is up.
(42:27):
But you know...
I don't know, John.
I think this is...
I guess I say this every time wemeet.
But I think this is one of themost important episodes that
people, our dear friends, neededto hear.
John (42:41):
Yeah, I agree.
And I just want to remind ourfriends that this is Episode 18,
and that a script and arecording is available on our
website at (42:51):
www.goSCpod.com.
That's G-O-S-C-P-O-D.com.
Owen (43:00):
Yeah.
Standing for:"Go SavingChristianity Pod." SC pod.
Well, u h, I hate to sign off,John.
But in the meantime, this isOwen Allen...
John (43:12):
...
and this is John Shields,speaking for me, and for our
producer, Shannon Wolf...
Owen (43:18):
...
saying (43:18):
May the God of our fathers, bless you, and keep
you, and guide you, and protectyou, until we meet again.
Owen and John (43:41):
Owen and John end the episode.
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