BTK Killer | Dennis Rader - Part 1

For 3 decade Dennis Rader terrified the Kansas City region of Kansas preying on women, children, and any man that got in his way. Known mostly by his self-proclaimed acronym, BTK, Dennis Rader used the monicker "Bind Torture Kill, BTK" in his taunts to the police, newspapers, and local communities.

Dennis Rader's prolific spree of murder from the 70s to the 90s are nearly unrivaled. Perhaps the Devil incarnate, BTK terrified sleepy small towns near Kansas City while keeping up the guise of a leader in the community. He was a father, scout leader, and strong Christian, or that's how he wanted the world to see him.

Listen as the Ladies of Scarlet discuss the early life and crimes of Dennis Rader and his evolution into BTK. Listen to this week's Scarlet True Crime Podcast.

Episode Transcript

Brittney Sherman (00:39):
Hey, there's Carlitos.
I just cut you off.
You were about to start, go for it.

Sonia Meza-Leon (00:45):
No, I wasn't.
I wasn't.
Oh, I thought you go,

Brittney Sherman (00:49):
okay, well, this is a fun start.
Hopefully it's not a sign ofthings to come, but welcome back to

Sonia Meza-Leon (00:56):
Scott.
We have

Brittney Sherman (01:00):
a big popular topic that may have fallen out of the headlines
a little bit recently, but was hugenews 15 years ago when it happened.
Uh, Sonia, what is ourtrue crime topic today?
Today,

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:16):
we are talking about Dennis Rader, also known as BTK,
which stands for bind, torture, kill.
And he was essentially the BTK killer.
Self-proclaimed, uh, not shyabout letting people know that.
He anonymously of course, tookresponsibility for the murders

(01:36):
that happened, which there were10 of them between 1974 and 1991.
He was not actually caught until 2005and he was caught because of his own.
Um, I think I would call it, uh,a slip up, you know, and, uh, oh,
definitely because of his hubris anda bit of his naive a D in my opinion,

(01:58):
I mean, he was stupid for believing.
It

Brittney Sherman (02:00):
was pretty, you know, we'll, we'll cover why it was dumb, but
it was a really dumb way to get caught.

Sonia Meza-Leon (02:05):
Exactly.
Um, but that sort ofspeaks to his arrogance.
He is serving 10 consecutive lifesentences right now in Kansas.
He was born in Wichita, Kansas.
Um, he spent his time there growing upand then he moved to park city, Kansas.
He was born in 1945 on March 9th.
And he was born to, um, Dorotheamay Raider and William Elvin.

(02:31):
Raider

Brittney Sherman (02:33):
sidebar.
Yeah.
I had an oboe instructor namedwhen I was a kid and I have
never heard that name since.
So I think that's awesome.

Sonia Meza-Leon (02:45):
DOR Tia or door Dorothea.
Well, I think what this same thing,

Brittney Sherman (02:50):
but like positions, I think it's the same thing
because it's spelled the same way.
It's just, she pronounced it likethe original German intended.

Sonia Meza-Leon (03:03):
very macho.
Um, all right.
So Dennis Rader, he's one of, uh, four.
Yes, he's one of four sons.
Um, well, I'm not going to get toomuch honestly, into the Raider family,
especially, um, you know, out of respectfor the tenders, Raiders wife and his two

(03:25):
children who had to endure the crazinessthat ensued after he was found out.
And then of course, you know, these arepeople who were, you know, raised by him
and who were married to him for all thoseyears while he was doing these crimes.
So, you know, I, I've watched alot of documentaries with, um, in

(03:47):
particular Dennis rater's daughtertalking about, um, how they didn't
know and how devastating it was.
And I really feel for these people.
So I'm not going to spenda ton of time on that.
We'll talk a little bit later about someof the current situations, but, um, you
know, I have to say Dennis Rader, BTK,I'm not going to say he's my favorite
serial killer because that's a weird word.

(04:08):
I do believe.
Yeah.
In my heart of hearts, I hate himthe most of all other serial killers.
And I'll tell you why.
Okay.
Um, and you got, yeah, no for sure.
This guy for all of these years.
So he, he, what what's interestingabout Dennis rater and his ability
to sort of, um, hide from the policeand the authorities for so long

(04:33):
was that he was not a stupid man.
Certainly he was moderately educated.
He was white.
He was like five, nine.
He was, you know, your regular old guy.
He worked for in a variety ofcapacities that gave him access
and taught him, um, how to reallyget really good at his crime.

(04:56):
In addition to that, he had.
Pretty serious issues,uh, sexual perversions.
And when I say that, becausethere's lots of whatever's out
there, you can fetish all day.
How about it?
But he enjoyed torturing animals.
He endured joy tortured.
People in particular women and,um, in ultimately murdering them

(05:19):
and leaving him them in an UNundistinguished, humiliating state.
Um, you know, and he didthis for what, 30 years.
I mean, it's kind of incredibleto think that he went on for that
long, especially because he tauntedthe police as much as he did.
So, you know, let's, we'll dive intoeach of the murders individually, but

(05:41):
Britney, any, anything you want to talkabout in particular with Dennis Rader
before we really start going down?
And I think it's important

Brittney Sherman (05:48):
to paint a little bit of a picture of his background,
or you covered it a little bit.
Um, and we don't need to go into a lotof detail cause we're going to have a
lot to talk about, uh, with the crimesthemselves, but just to get to know the
man Dennis Rader, before he became BTK,as he wanted to be known as, uh, he.

(06:09):
When he was growing up as a child, hewas a, a quiet, withdrawn, socially
awkward kid who showed tendenciesof violence early on, as Sonia
mentioned, by killing animals andtaking pleasure in that he was never a
good student, never very intelligent.

(06:32):
Um, I mean, he was a pretty goodlooking guy growing up, but always
kind of struck out with the ladies.
Uh, he graduated high school in1963 and he went to a community
college for a couple of years.
And then in 1965, he went to KansasWesleyan university or college in Salina.

(06:54):
And he dropped out because he wasn'treally making his grades cause he
wasn't a really a smart guy and.
And this was of course, likethe heart of the Vietnam war.
And so he was afraid of getting drafted.
So he enlisted himself in the air force.
So he would not be on the frontlines, on the battlefield.

(07:17):
And so while he was in the air force,he started to show signs of his future.
Uh, violent side is stalking tendencies.
He would, uh, he had a very inflated ego.
He envisioned himself like James Bond.
He would go to bars and like I women,and like stalk them a little bit, not,

(07:41):
not to your point where that he got,but he carried a gun with him because
he felt like he was undercover andalways needed to be protected and would
step up if anything were to happen.
And he was always prepared then, uh, he,he came back in 1969, I believe it was.

(08:02):
And he in 1970 and he, uh, He, hemet his future wife who Sonia, you
know, I kind of agree with you.
We don't need to discuss too much.
Uh, they were, theydated for a short time.
Paula Dietz is her name andthey were married in 1971.
Uh,

Sonia Meza-Leon (08:22):
after they were married, they had two children, Carrie and
Brian, and for all practical purposes,you know, if you hear from Paula and
from the kids, they had a very normal.
Um, you know, they were, theywere as shocked as everyone else.
Um, and so betrayed, obviously when theyheard about this, because until then,

(08:44):
you know, there was no, there was no,um, information, you know, or nothing
that would lead them to believe thathe was capable of anything like that.
I think there was only one time whereDennis Rader lost his temper with his son
and they had to pull him off of the sun.
Um, but that doesn't make you a murderer.
That just means that you'vegot some anger issues.

(09:06):
Right.
Um, so, you know, really, there's a lot ofinterviews out there with, um, you know,
the daughters, uh, and, and I don't know,maybe the son, but, um, it's a lot of
Lynch, interesting information out there.
I would definitely take a look at it.
So, Brittany, as you said, there was alot of let's go back to, um, you know,
of course talking about the zoo Satan.

(09:28):
Which is torturing, killingand hanging of animals.
He also acted out a lot of sexualfantasies he had, and he will go on
to talk about these fantasies and telland say that ultimately that's what
drove him to do the things he did.
He called his drive a factor X, and heblamed everything really on factor X.

(09:51):
And that seemed to drive reallyevery move he made, um, or at
least all the moves when it cameto his, um, criminal behavior.
And what's crazy about it is,you know, here's a guy who,
again, this is a very long time.
And if you look at, you know, howhe murders these people over time,
I mean, it's all over the place.

(10:11):
It's like some in the seventies, eighties,and then in the nineties, but like
he skips like 10 years between them.
Um, sometimes, you know, no, and I thinkthat's, of course, one of the reasons
they couldn't catch him also becausewe're always led to believe that serial
killers, um, you know, they escalate.
So in my opinion, whenwe get to the first.
I feel like that's the worstcrime he committed and nothing.

(10:34):
I'm not saying, you know, notto, it's not picking favorites,
but it was the one where childrenwere involved and were murdered.
And to start to me at that level is whereI'm, I'm just terrified at this person.
And also so angry with him.
I have no tolerance for, for torturingchildren and the things that he, he did.
Um, but let's talk about the sexual fetishthat he was interested in, including

(10:57):
voyeurism autoerotic asphyxiationand cross-dressing, he would always
like in his neighborhood, when he wasyoung, sneak around, watch women get
undressed, he would wear women's clothing.
He would masturbate withropes and bindings on.
He would even do that dress up thing.
And, um, you know, in-betweenthe murders, right?

(11:18):
By the way, I don't know if you guysrealize what autoerotic asphyxiation is.
Um, it's a fairly, I don't know,common thing actually, which I
it's shocking, but essentiallyit's the strangulation of yourself.
Hence the auto, um, until you writeabout to the point where you climax

(11:40):
and then you take off whatever you'restrangling yourself with and it's
supposed to really, um, sort of.
Elevate your, your orgasm.
Exactly.
There are many people, um, out therein the world, um, celebrities who
we know have died while trying, uh,well, well, not trying, but they

(12:01):
did try cause they didn't succeed.
Yeah.
But, um, a couple of them that you willremember would be Michael Hutchins.
And then also, um, you, I think DavidCarradine passed away like that.
What I saw, um, on the documentationthat I looked at was that Rader
would tie himself to a rope thatwas tied to the bathroom door

(12:25):
knob, and then leaned forward.
So that's how he wouldcontrol himself now.
And I, and I guess, becausehe was so close to the floor,
maybe, I dunno, I dunno.
I don't know how he kept himself,but you know, there's always
a risk when you're practicing.
Autoerotic asphyxiation that you'renot going to recover from it.

Brittney Sherman (12:43):
I don't know how he, how he got away with this, but there
is a picture that he turned over to thepolice of himself when he was caught in
2005 of himself wearing a woman's mask,which was a common theme for him while he
was partaking in autoerotic asphyxiationand wearing some of his victims clothes.

(13:06):
And he actually tied himself to a treebranch and was hanging in the air one.
I don't know how you physically dothat without actually killing yourself.
And two, I don't know how you get awaywith that and set up a camera to take
a picture of it, but it was a reallydisturbing picture that he was kind of
proud to turn over to police officers.

Sonia Meza-Leon (13:28):
Oh, he was a weird dude.
He, he definitely taunted the police.
He wanted people to know that he,whoever he was, um, and he hourly caught
himself BTK that he wanted them to know.
Um, and we'll talk alittle, a little bit later.
I think we should go ahead and getinto the crimes, but we can talk a
little bit about how along the wayhe communicated with the police.

(13:50):
Um, but you know, let's start,let's start, uh, at Dennis
Rader, you know, Has two kids.
This is right around the time.
Oh, one more thing I do want to mentionby the way he was going to, and he
graduated from Wichita state universityand of course he was studying, he
was studying justice administration.

(14:10):
So he, from an early, early, early on, hestarted really working out, um, and trying
to educate himself on the typical, um, youknow, the, the criminal justice system and
how he could get work his way around it.
And Wichita state university isalso where BTK, I, uh, also known
as Dennis Rader made a lot of thephotocopies of the documents and

(14:33):
letters he sent to the police.
So they were able to trace thoseback to Wichita state university.
'cause and, and just remember guys,if you read anything about this case,
he was fairly crafty sometimes, butthen other times he was fairly stupid.
So I was like, well, I don't, Idon't know what this guy's doing.
He seems to be off the rails.
He would make photocopies, he would neversend the original letters to the police.

(14:54):
I assume that's because he didn'twant them to trace anything about
the letters, but there was still,you know, you could still track down.
And I think IBM helped them track down.
Um, you know, at least the photocopy modelphotocopier models and where he could get
them and they traced them back to Wichitastate, but everybody in the Republic.
So you couldn't really figure it out.
It was, uh, it was too hard to track down,but they got to at least have that detail.

(15:17):
But, um, yeah, no.
See he for a guy who didn'thave any time, he had some time.
I mean, it sounded like every wakingmoment he had was either spending
with his kids in his family,going to school or studying how to
kill people and honestly stopped.
Well, he,

Brittney Sherman (15:32):
I almost feel like he was, you know, he went
to when he was trying to fill histime by being a community guy.
And like, he was a boy scout troop leader.
He was like presidentof the church council.
He was always trying to be well-known.
And I, I got the impression and Idon't know about you, but I got the

(15:53):
impression that the murders happenedwhen the other activities died down.
And he actually did the other activitiesto try and quell his urge to kill.

Sonia Meza-Leon (16:05):
Sometimes sometimes, but I think his number
one priority was always, youknow, the sideline piece of it.
It just you're you're right.
There were definitely moments in hislife where either he was experiencing
stress or pressure that would drive him.
But most of the documentation inthe letters that he, he first off
he's very well, you know, writtenwhen it comes to or well documented.

(16:27):
Anyway, he wrote, he hasall of these letters.
He has like journals.
He has.
Pictures that he drew of thesepoor people being tortured.
And then he wrote a book and he,uh, and so nicely of him, he was
like, oh, I'm writing this book.
Um, but I'm going to donate the,donate, the proceeds to the victims.
So I think he did that.
And that was, again, reallywell-documented he spoke in, in

(16:50):
depth with the police about exactlywhat happened at each murder too.
So he, and that's one of the waysthat they were able to tie some
of these murders to him because hewould, no one else would have known
the information that he providedto them, um, except for the murder.
So it was really, really weird andinteresting, but, um, you know, let's
talk a little bit about the first,um, set of murders because the first,

(17:11):
the first set of murders actually wereformers two adults and two children.
And this was on January 15th,1974 in Wichita, Kansas.
The victims were Joseph Otero.
He was 38, Julie Otero.
Age 33, Joseph Otero Jr.

(17:32):
And he was nine and thenJosephine Oterra who is 11.
So, um, I can, you know, let's walkthrough some of this, you know, I
don't want to spend too much timeon it because the, the, the, the
stuff with the kids is just horrific.

(17:53):
It is, um, By the way the bodieswere discovered by the kids or the
family's oldest son who was not thereat the time and walked in on this.
Yep.
So, so very, very sad.
Um, from what I understand, it soundslike that, you know, in typical
fashion he breaks into the house.
This is, was fairly common.

(18:15):
Emma of his, he would break intothe house, he would have a gun.
He would tell whoever he was breakingin that, you know, he was, he told a lot
of them that he was going to rape them,but not kill them and then robbed them.
And so, but he never, we allknow he never raped anyone.

Brittney Sherman (18:33):
I mean, anyone, there was a lot of sexual tendencies,
but there was never any indication of.

Sonia Meza-Leon (18:40):
Exactly.
And there was never any semen or anyphysical, you know, proof of rape as well.
So it seemed apparent that whathe was after was a sexual, um, you
know, sort of, uh, he was reallytrying to fulfill a sexual need, but
didn't have anything to do, honestly.
Sex per se with another person.

(19:03):
Um, I think that, um, and as we cango through this, we'll talk a little
bit more about it, but, you know,emotions of the people that Dennis Rader
murdered were suffocated and strangled.
Um, and, and then one ofthem I think was stabbed.
But for the most part, he likedto watch people die slowly.
And of course, if he was murdering morethan one person, that he was probably,

(19:27):
um, the, uh, the rest of whoever, thepeople there were likely watching him
kill some of the people in front of him.
So for instance, the Otero family.
So we have a mom and dad who have theirtwo children, nine and 11 with them.
Of course, this guy goes into the house.
They're terrified.
This is the beginning of the BTK murders.

(19:49):
So nobody has any idea.
Now, remember in crazy ass, 1970s,um, where Brittany, you know, we just
were talking about, you know, all thecraziness that happens in the 1970s,
like the California freeway killer,which there were multiple, the golden
state killer, the east area rapist.
Like it just doesn't seemlike anybody like PR.

(20:09):
I mean, nobody cared what, youknow, it was a free for all.
It was so easy to findpeople and to murder them.
There seems to be so much tension.
It was crazy.
I know crazy.
Like, I just, I mean, it, in a mostof these crimes to me were targeted
at women and what was even crazy.
I think you and I talked to yourdad the other day, but with the
golden state killer, which hasbananas, like I think around that

(20:32):
time where the east area rapist,you know, the rapes were happening.
If you got caught for raping someone,you would probably get like 30
days or 90 days or even probation.
You're not even going to getreally in trouble coral Raisy.
So maybe that's why Dennis Raderwas telling these people, oh,
I'm just going to rape you.
Because at the time, apparentlythat was not a big deal or as
not as bad as murdering them.

(20:52):
But I was really confuseda lot about Dennis Rader.
Um, you know, I, I havequestions along the way.
Let's again.
Sorry, go back to ourfirst set of murders.
Joseph Otero, Julio TerrosJoseph junior and Josephine.
So it sounds to me like DennisRader in his first foray.
And by the way, this might've beenhis first set of murders, but he

(21:13):
was very, very well-planned in this.
He had, here's what hesays that he used to do.
He, because he spent quite a bit oftime finding his art, his targets,
and then he would find, spend quitea bit more time studying them.
So he would, what he said he woulddo is he was, he would troll for
a new victim or set of victims.

(21:36):
And then he, once he determined whothat would be or who they would be, he
stalked them for a quite a period of time.
He figured out how to get intotheir houses when they were
home, who was going to be.
And he made himself, um, you know,he planned around those events.
So he was really good at it.
So back to January 15th, 1974, these,this families, you know, in their house.

(22:01):
Um, and again, Raider comes in.
He's saying that he's only goingto rape them or he's only gonna
burglarize them actually just looking

Brittney Sherman (22:10):
for, he was like looking, he says he was
looking for money and a car toget away because he was on one

Sonia Meza-Leon (22:16):
in criminal, on the road.
Yeah.
He loved to have this say, youknow, this idea that he was
all famous, which has bananas.
Um, but that's somewhere somethingsort of consistent with his behaviors.
I think she had a reallylike, his ego is huge.
So here we have the entirefamily in the bedroom.
Um, we will later know thatthey find Joseph, uh, the father

(22:38):
and the mother in the bedroom.
And what Dennis Rader does withoutgetting into too much graphic detail is
he puts a bag over Joseph Arturo's head.
And while the other peopleare sitting there, right.
We're all in the same room together.
So clearly they couldsee what was happening.
The daughter and the son werewatching his parents like be murdered.

(22:58):
Essentially.

Brittney Sherman (22:59):
It's important to know though he.
Like his name would he boundall of the Otero family.
He tied them up by theirarms and legs behind them.
So they couldn't fight back.

Sonia Meza-Leon (23:13):
Oh yeah.
And he has he even.

Brittney Sherman (23:16):
He had a gun with him that he never had any intention
of using, like you said, he w hedidn't use guns in his murders.
He had other means, uh, but he usedthe gun as intimidation to allow
them to get the family to comply.
So that way he couldproceed with his crimes.
A lot of people usually think ofcompliance as the best defense,

(23:37):
because they believe that they willsurvive because that's what they are
being told by the perpetrator wherein most cases we ultimately find that
compliance is actually the worst option.
And most of the time it does not endwell for the victims when they may have
had other opportunities to fight back,

Sonia Meza-Leon (23:57):
especially with.
You have a situation like this?
Now, granted, there was,it was a very naive time.
So I'm sure these people were hopewe're believing them, but they had a lot
at stake if they didn't and you know,what's weird is he rarely wore a mask.
He which I also find really weirdbecause here's a guy who was pretty
well known in the, um, the town.

(24:18):
And I don't know how big the town is,but I mean, to be involved in all the
things that he was doing and to notwear a mask, I am shocked that people
didn't, weren't able to identify him.
But what everybody said washe's like a 5, 9, 5, 8 white
guy with dark hair, big deal.
Like, I mean, nothing interestingor out of the ordinary.
Um, so really hard to track him down.

(24:40):
Okay.
So let's go back to Joseph Otero, JosephMatera bag on his head, Dennis Raiders,
centrally stuff, stuff, suffocatinghim, sitting there watching this guy.
Die.
That's what Dennis Rader liked to do.
That's what got him off.
He liked to watch the last breathcome out of people's faces, whether
it be a man, a woman or a child, andthat's what, that's what got him off.

(25:04):
That's why he masturbated to it.
Um, and I'm assuming that it hadsomething to do with him practicing
autoerotic asphyxiation himself,but he knew what that felt like.
And it got him to the, you know,all amped up or tweaked up.
He called it teed up, I think is whathe would refer to it as he was teed up.
And he had to do something about it.
Um, this guy, by the way, this fucker,he, I don't think there's a Pintu.

(25:27):
Uh, w w bad enough for this guy,this guy, I think at the time,
cause he's 10 consecutive licenses.
Um, I mean, I would have said to deathfor sure, but I think at the time Kansas
didn't have the death penalty in place.
There are also some people who say that hemurdered other people and he didn't tell
the police about those people, becausethat would have put him around the time

(25:47):
where Kansas did have the death penaltyand he didn't want to disclose that.
So all kinds of crazy.
So, sorry, back to the here's this dadon the ground bag on his head suffocating.
He passes out Dennis Rader,think this is a member.
This is his first time thatsort of enacting this on humans.
And so Dennis Rader thinks he's died.

(26:08):
So moving on, the fun is gone.
He moves on to the wife, Juliet or Tara.
Now again when remember

Brittney Sherman (26:15):
actually no, no, no, it was, it was reversed.
He actually, he actually killedor thought he killed Julie
first, before he attacked Joseph.
And it was

Sonia Meza-Leon (26:24):
Julie.
Well, both of them did multiple times.
I think they came to over andover again because he just didn't
know how much he had to, like,you know, just strangle them.
Um, it was, I think, more than four, um,it sounded like, and I don't know who
could attest to that except Dennis Rader.
So, I mean, he's, he's telling his ownstory, but he struggled with it and he

(26:45):
was, he admitted that his, he went backand forth between them multiple times.
And he, and then I think what, and onetime Joseph doTERRA came back to, he had
bitten a hole through the plastic bag.
So Dennis, Dennis Rader took off theplastic bag, put on a t-shirt and then
put the plastic bag on top of that.
So he couldn't bite through it.
So they went back and forth withthis quite a number of times,

(27:07):
which must've been horrific again.
It's awful horrible.
Horrible.
So again, so those have been Julieeither dead or unconscious, but pretty
sure dead, um, hard to tell becauseI think they were there, you know,
I don't know how long they were inthe house before someone found them.
Probably not that long because the kidwho found them was, um, I did 10th grade.

(27:27):
So he would've been staying there.
Certainly.
Um, again, these Joseph and Julia,um, you know, suffocated, strangled,
Now that we have those two folks,either dead or incapacitated.
He turns to the Joseph Jr.
Who is nine years old.

(27:49):
He takes Joseph the nine-year-oldinto another bedroom.
He ties him.
Or if he's not already tied, he,it appears that they think he laid
this young man, this little boy.
Um, and this little boy was consciousand I don't know if it was mouth was
gagged or not, but he's eyes were open.

(28:10):
He was aware Dennis Rader couldsee the terror in his face.
And I just can't find them how you woulddo that to a child, not only to dentistry.
Do that to a child, but he hadgot off on watching the blast
breath come out of Joseph.
And he, the, like I said, the policehave some thought that cause there
are there, I guess chair marks in thecarpet that he pretty much put the chair

(28:33):
on over Joseph or around him or nearhim and just sat right there and look
straight in his face while he died.
Oh, what's so awful.
Yeah.
But if you're trying to get, if that'swhat you get off on, that's what you
want to see what I don't understand.
And it sounds to me like thatmost of these people had a
t-shirt on over the plastic bag.

(28:55):
So that's a little conflicting because ifyou're, what are you seeing, if you can't
see their face, when they're dying, youjust waiting for them to stop breathing.
And then, you know, that's alittle different than looking
someone in the eyes as they die.
So my thought is.
I don't know.
I don't remember what Dennis Radersays, or if he's saying it accurately,
but I'm not sure if he ever discloses,which he puts on first with Joseph.

(29:15):
He definitely said that he put thet-shirt on first because he didn't want
them to buy through the plastic anymore.
That's just, that's all hekept coming back to life.
Uh,

Brittney Sherman (29:26):
well, yeah, I mean, yeah, sure.
But while, well, I, I didn't hearanything about the t-shirts actually,
um, certainly about the, you know,the other stuff he discussed, but
I didn't know about the t-shirts.
So that's, that's brandnew information that is

Sonia Meza-Leon (29:40):
more disturbing.
Oh, rebel.
Um, Brittany, do you want to tellus about, so again, we know that
little Joe Little Joseph died.
Do you want to tell us about Josephinethe last that's the only members.

Brittney Sherman (29:54):
Yeah.
So, so Josephine to me, as you said,the Otero family is probably for you.
The worst one for me,it's also the worst one.
And it Josephine in particular becauseI just found this absolutely disgusting.
So after Joseph, Julie and Joe Jr, haveall been killed, he takes Josephine into

(30:20):
the basement with her arms and legs tiedup behind her and hangs her from a pipe.
And she is strangled and dieshanging from a pipe while he.
Masturbating next to her watching her die.

(30:41):
And semen was actually foundin the basement next to her
body at the crime scene.
Now we said he never raped anyone.
He never sexually assaulted anyone, buthe left DNA, which at the time was not
known, but he left his mark and showedhow severely, sexually driven he was.
And to an 11 year old girl, this is thepart that would, this is the first one.

(31:07):
Well, I guess she's the fourth one,but the first crime for her spree.
And it's, it's the most horrendousto me because like you said, not
only is it killing children, it'sgetting sexual satisfaction out of
doing so this, this man, who's astand up citizen member of the church.

(31:31):
Uh, at the time his wife was pregnantwith his first daughter, Carrie.
And like, he was this amazingfamily man who just, it was, I, I
was so disgusted and the left islike I said, he left his evidence.
He didn't really clean up.
He, he, uh, uh, wanted it to be adisgusting scene that officers would

(31:57):
find that would make the press.
And, uh, it would be and unique a uniquecrime that he could take credit for.

Sonia Meza-Leon (32:09):
Yeah.
So this is, this is the beginning.
This is the beginning of, you know, BTK.
Um, all right.
So moving on to our next murderslash victims, more than one.

Brittney Sherman (32:23):
I think before we move on to the next victim, we have to talk
about his first d'Elegance in reachingout for fame and taunting the police.
Because after the Hewitt, he wasactually, I believe seen leaving the
house, but the person that saw himcould not give an accurate description.

(32:46):
And since he didn't feel like hewas giving, getting enough press,
he sent a letter to the televisionstation, K a K E in Kansas, uh,
admitting that he was responsible.
And again, this guy not very intelligent,always had poor spelling and grammar.

(33:07):
He wrote that he wants to be knownas BTK for bind, torture, kill,
except he didn't even spell it.
Right.
He grew up bind Totour you left out the R.
Kill.
So this guy was, I just thought it was,it was an early sign of what seemed

(33:30):
to be a lot of mix ups, mess ups ofthings that I feel like you almost
should have been caught sooner for.
And then that didn'tgive him enough press.
So he called a news editor at a newspaperand said, Hey, go to the library because
I left a letter in engineering book andhe was hoping someone would find it.

(33:54):
And so this guy went and in the,uh, letter, he again, claims
responsibility for the murders.
And he said, you will know me asbind them, torture them, kill them.
B T K.

Sonia Meza-Leon (34:10):
But L well, let's go back a minute because he, that letter was left
and, well, I don't know when it was left,but he called them and let them know that
letter was available in October of 1974.
Right.
But he actually had killedsomeone in April of 1974.
So he killed another person anddamaged her brother before the letter.

(34:33):
And I think that's where he gotfrustrated was that there were
two sets of, you know, crimes.
And that's where he's like, what do I gotto do to get some attention around it?
Yeah.
Good point.
So that's where we start.
That's where we talked about KathrynBright and her brother, Kevin Bright,
who is a survivor of BTK and whohas been on multiple interviews
talking about what he went through.

(34:54):
He saw the guy, he saw Dennis Rader.
He saw his sister die.
Um, he.
Came back to live multipletimes and somehow ran out.
Um, but let's talk a little bitabout what, what happened with
Kathryn Bright in her home?
Kathryn Bright was Burt murderedin 1974, April 4th, 1974.
She was 21.

(35:15):
Her brother, Kevin was with her andhe was 19, uh, essentially done.
And Ray, Dennis Rader broke intothe house, um, from the front porch
and he hid in the bedroom, whichis what he would typically do.
And sometimes for quite a long time,um, she arrived home and Raider wasn't
expecting her brother to be there too.

(35:36):
So of course he came rushinginto the room, you know, gun
out, um, the whole nine yards.
He told them the same shenanigans, right?
He was at war criminal.
I just needed to get out of there.
He needed money.
He forced the two into the bedroom.
Um, they tied each other up essentially.
And then, um, He took Kevininto the other bedroom.

(36:00):
Now this poor guy is still alive.
Like, oh my God talking about this.
Um, they takes Kevin to the other room sothat he can have his way with Catherine,
Kevin breaks out of the, the cord orthe, whatever he was tied up with.
He runs in there to the other room to tryand help assist her in Dennis Rader shoots
him right in the face, which is crazy.

(36:22):
Yeah.

Brittney Sherman (36:23):
It doesn't like to use guns, but again, he
was using it as intimidation.

Sonia Meza-Leon (36:27):
Well, it wasn't intimidation.
He needed, he needed to get his brotheraway from the Kevin Bright away from,
because that was in a way they were, Imean, he was going to be without man.

Brittney Sherman (36:37):
Totally.
But I think that, I don't think hehad any intention of using the gun.
It was meant as intimidation, buthe ha he was forced into a position.
She had to use it, but that's nothow he got satisfaction out of.
Yeah,

Sonia Meza-Leon (36:48):
no, definitely.
He was only using it.
I mean, he didn't expectKevin to be there.
Um, that's, what's crazy about it, youknow, so he was thrown off by this.
Um, so of course heshoots Kevin in the head.
Kevin goes down, he thinks he's dead.
Apparently Kevin's not dead.
Um, Catherine, um, you know,also put up a really big fight

(37:09):
and he ultimately strangled her.
Um, he, but it didn't work.
He, I don't know if it was becauseshe was so young, but you know,
he, he, he couldn't controlher as much as he wanted to.
So he, um, ultimately ended upstabbing her to death, but her

(37:30):
and her brother were very, very,very challenging for Dennis Rader.
I mean, it was, um, not an easy, um,you know, not an easy murder for sure.
Yeah.
Maybe at, you know, in, remember KevinBright runs out, he escapes, he there's
a lot of conversations with him.
Yeah.
There's tons of interviews.

(37:51):
I have a feeling that's whyDennis Dennis Rader stopped.
And then his next murder wouldn't occuruntil 1977, because he's probably scared
that this guy who had seen him right inhis face, like literally standing there
with him, talking to him, you know,there's a guy out there who can, you
know, who can essentially identify him.
I have a feeling that Dennis Raderstopped or waited because of that.

(38:11):
And then he got his courage up andhe couldn't control his factor X and
that's when he went back out again.
But, um, yeah, Catherine, CatherineBright, uh, put up a heck of a fight and
ultimately that one didn't go as well.
As I know, I think thatDennis Rader had expected.
I don't know if he masturbated.
At that scene or not, but it sounds tome like it was quite a debacle in, you

(38:33):
know, he was just trying to get outof there and to think that he would
have someone out there running aroundwho knew what he looked like, but when
they asked the guy multiple times andhe was shot in the face, by the way.
So the police really couldn'tbelieve and they didn't know.
And, and Kevin couldn't really say either.
He was like, okay, 5, 8, 5, 9white guy, you know, I mean,
what looks like everybody else?

(38:54):
You know, how do you,how do you pin that down?
I mean, it was, it was tough.
So that, that one's a,that one's a tough one.
And I think it's really interestingto watch some of those, um, those
interviews, Kevin Bryant was onLarry King live and he talked a bit
about how that, how it went down.
And if I'm not mistaken with the exceptionof some of the children who witnessed
the murder of their parents in the latermurders, Kevin Brightspot any one of

(39:17):
the only witnesses that's still alive.
So, uh, two more murders down a horrible.
So now, well,

Brittney Sherman (39:26):
or, sorry, sorry.
One more.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, so we're at five murders and then once

Sonia Meza-Leon (39:31):
survivor.
So moving on to 1977, this is when,for some reason in there, uh, Dennis
Rader takes a break, not Brittany.
You had said.
You had said that his daughter,he, his wife was pregnant
with his daughter was at 1974.
Exactly.

Brittney Sherman (39:48):
So after actually he found out that his wife was pregnant.
Um, I think she was so I know she waspregnant during the Otero murders.
I don't know if he knew she waspregnant during your Terra martyrs,
but he certainly found out at minimumafter the Catherine Bright murder.
And he was so excited to be a father.
Like he, as I said before, like, I feellike he had this like empty, nervous

(40:12):
energy that drove him to commit crimeswhen he didn't have anything else to do.
But he was so excited to be a father.
He decided I got to turn my life around.
I got, gotta be a good dad.
And so he took like three yearsoff, like you said, he so BTK.
He was so proud.
He left all of this evidence.
He claimed excitement for like, he,he claimed responsibility for it.

(40:35):
And one of the notarized.
But then he wouldn't dormant forthree years because he was so
dedicated to be a doting father.
But ultimately that factor X crept backup and he couldn't suppress it anymore.
He even referred to itas a monster or his evil.
And so 1977 BTK strikesagain against Shirley violin.

(41:00):
I think that's how you pronounce her name.

Sonia Meza-Leon (41:01):
I'm not sure.
Yep.
That's right.
Shirley violin.
So

Brittney Sherman (41:05):
here's another instance of a young child.
Child's not a victim here, but he usesthe child essentially to bait the mother.
He's trolling apart.
I

Sonia Meza-Leon (41:15):
think he's a victim.
You don't think he's a victim?
Well, I mean,

Brittney Sherman (41:18):
he's totally a victim, but he's not, he's he, wasn't
a victim of violence set the word.
I don't even know the word to say

Sonia Meza-Leon (41:29):
he's a surplus.
I want to survive.
Uh, yeah, he was held hostage.
I mean, he

Brittney Sherman (41:35):
was, he was held hostage.
So this, this little kid, you know,he's, he's playing at the park
and as we always say, and totallytrue stranger danger, uh, Mr.
Raider comes up to this kid and showshim a picture of his wife and kids
and says, do you recognize them?

(41:55):
Uh, and the kid is like, Nope, no I don't.
And I think what Raider was doingwas trying to ultimately see this kid
and, uh, follow him to his mother.
Well, he never found the mother,so he just kept on kind of stalking
the kid and the kid goes home.

(42:17):
Raider takes his time.
He's, he's very good at stalkingwomen because in the three years
that he kind of took his break,even though he wasn't violent, he.
I was following women and stalking them.
So he's watching thiswoman from the streets.

(42:37):
He's watching this kid, he decideshe's going to take his chance.
So he goes and knocks onthe door, the kid answers.
And then he's essentiallylike, Hey, you remember me?
I showed you those pictures.
Well, I'm actually a detectiveand I need to talk to your mom.

Sonia Meza-Leon (42:54):
So, so you know, what's interesting about this kid.
How old is this kid?
Brittany?
Six years old, I believe.
Yep.
He's little.
He's a little boy.
He's a little kid.
There were three, there were threekids in the house at the time
that Shirley Vian was killed.
It's so awful.
And the kid who, the kid, uh, they enter,I saw an interview with this kid, the

(43:15):
six year old kid, who's now grown up.
He saw everything and heblamed himself as an adult.

Brittney Sherman (43:21):
I mean, he's six years old.
There's nothing he could have done.
He again, he had his gun thathe brought for intimidation.
He forced the three kids into thebathroom and locked them in the bathroom.
Uh, Ben, while he attacked their mother,uh, he told her that he was going to

(43:43):
rape her, uh, and, but not kill her.
And so she again, seemed to be compliant.
Uh, they even smoked a cigarettetogether before he, she let him, well,
she believed was letting him rape her.
Uh, but of course he bound her.

(44:03):
He put a cord around her neckand strangled her and then
ejaculated into her panties.

Sonia Meza-Leon (44:12):
So hold on a second.
So surely violin is sitting,I mean, who said that he, they
smoked a cigarette together.
I believe he did.
Yeah, obviously.
Yeah.
Right, right.
I can't imagine that.
I'm like, what.
I mean, I guess

Brittney Sherman (44:29):
I, well, I know, but like, if, again, I mean, I think these,
I think these people unfortunately arethinking, okay, if I comply, I'll be okay.
And so this woman is thinkingmy kids are in the bathroom.
As long as they stay safe, I'llbe compliant with this man,
but he's not going to kill me.

(44:49):
Of course we know that'snot what happened.
I'm just trying to, I'm trying toget in the mind of the victim to
just think why they would come.
They would work in the way that they.

Sonia Meza-Leon (45:00):
I probably thinking that, you know, doing whatever she
could to make sure kids are safe,who were locked in a bathroom and
something happens to her, then he'sprobably going to hurt them as well.
The other thing is hedoesn't have a mask on again.
So, you know, the likelihood ofher letting him go, yeah, the
likelihood of her letting you knowhim letting her go, it's pretty slim.

(45:20):
But I guess she's not thinking inthose terms, even though you've had.
Previous murders happen.
And, and I'm assumingpeople remember that those

Brittney Sherman (45:28):
were three years.
Those were three years ago now.
So you kind of think that if you're livingin that time, it's a little bit forgotten.
You think that it's moved onit can't, it can't be the same

Sonia Meza-Leon (45:38):
thing, I guess.
I mean, I just, I don't know.
I would be on alert.
I mean, they're in Wichita, Kansas.
I mean, I, to, I apparently beforethis, there was very little crime
or very little, um, you know, murderhappening in which doc, Kansas.
So all of a sudden it amped up like for,you know, three years in the seventies,

(45:59):
I'm surprised, especially at theextent that which the kids were killed.
Um, but you know, cause at that pointthey were like, The it's not just
women, it's kids, it's a free for all.
It could be men as well,back to Shirley VN.
So she has a cigarette.
They're doing whatever.
Um, you know, as you said, heejaculated into some panties,

(46:22):
but didn't officially rape her.
Um, and then the kids somehow,or another, there was an eight
year old, a six year old.
And what a younger kid, I

Brittney Sherman (46:33):
think, I think the other child was younger.

Sonia Meza-Leon (46:36):
These kids smart.
Well, first off they could see outthe door, the door wasn't all the way.
Shut the guy.
Demonstrator tied it shut so they couldpull it a bit open and they did, and
they watch their mother be killed.
Um, then of course I'msure that terrified them.
So they broke the bathroom windowout and they were able to escape.
So now we've got four peoplewho could identify Dennis Rader.

(46:58):
A couple of, of three of them arechildren, but still, you know, you've
got, you've got people and they were ableto interview these poor kids and, and
I'm sure gave them a lot of counseling.
I mean, it must've been horrificbecause I think she was a single mother.
So I don't know where these kidswent after she died, but you know,
this, this turned her life around.
I don't

Brittney Sherman (47:15):
know.
I don't know if there's anythingmore traumatic that you could
ever experience in your life.
Of course, it's life around.
I mean, it's unreal.

Sonia Meza-Leon (47:21):
Um, especially if this guy harbors the guilt
for this, because that's

Brittney Sherman (47:26):
so tragic.
So later in 1977, again, he is, uh,he can't control his factor X anymore.
So he decides to move in on oneof the many women that he was
stalking and he begins to havean obsession with Nancy Fox.

(47:48):
So like many times you see in scary homeinvasion movies that are terrifying,
the criminal cuts the phone line.
The beginning of the nut of nightmaresfor generations caused by horror movies.
He broke into her duplex andwe did her there for a while

(48:12):
for her to get home from work.
He brought in his gun.
He told her, which is oddly, I think kindof true that he had a sexual dysfunction.
And the only way tofix it was to rape her.
Now that part is crazy.
Of course, that's ridiculous.

(48:33):
But if we jump back to when he servedhis time in the Vietnam war, he
actually hired a sex coach becausehe had, I dunno if it was true sexual
dysfunction, but he felt that he wasterrible at sex and needed guidance.
I don't know if it's what we wouldconsider like EDD today, or if it

(48:55):
was really just, he wasn't as goodas he hoped he would be, but he
really believed that he needed help.
So I think he was actually kindof calling up back on his early
years as an excuse to attack.
And in his words, rape this moment,which of course he would never do.
They both changed clothes or took offtheir clothes, got into the bedroom

(49:19):
and he prayed for, uh, proceededto bind and torture and string.
He even told her who she, who he was andconfess to his previous murders to her.

Sonia Meza-Leon (49:31):
And then like, not like it couldn't get any worse, but
at this time let's recall that DennisRader was working for ADT alarm company.
I know isn't that crazy?
Why not?
You know, I mean, talk about having accessand information that he would really find
useful to be able to commit these crimes.

(49:52):
So on his way to work the next day,um, uh, unfortunately it was when they
found Nancy, Joe, and they found herbecause he called them and told them that
there was a murder at her address whoshe was and that he had murdered her.
He called, I mean, he called, I thinkhe called the, um, he called the news.

(50:12):
Who did he call the newspaper?

Brittney Sherman (50:14):
He called the police.
He actually, he, no, I think he called

Sonia Meza-Leon (50:17):
the police.
Oh, he did.
He called the local police.

Brittney Sherman (50:20):
He called the police.
And again, Dennis, not the mostsmartest, most intelligent guy he
said, and I'm going to quote this.
Yes.
You will find a whole aside at8 43 south Pershing Nancy Fox.
That is correct.

(50:41):
So he's trying to get caught.
The police know are on high alert.
He drops, the phone starts runningaway and I believe it was, it was
a, a fire fighter, a first responderthat actually picked up the phone
and continue talking to the policeand may have seen him running away.

(51:02):
So there's potentially another

Sonia Meza-Leon (51:05):
witness.
Yeah.
But like white guy, five,nine, you know, dark hair.
It's.
He's so sloppy.
Well, I'm, you know, like I said, I'mreally shocked that he didn't get caught
so much earlier because he was sloppy.
And because he's like, uh, youknow, I mean, how did no one ever
notice this guy had a, no oneever be able to identify him?

(51:27):
He was fairly well known.
I mean, he was the leader of a church.
He was a leader of the Cub Scouts.
I mean, he knew people, he wasrespected, um, or at least early on.
We'll talk a little bit later when he'sa compliance officer with, which is when
he really starts taking things out on,on hid, the people he's working with.
I mean, it was kind of terrifying.

(51:49):
So right around this time, again,BTK is feeling like he's on
top of the world because he hassuccessfully murdered another person.
Um, apparently he must have forgottenabout the guy that he left, uh, live
Kevin Bright, because if he was goingto say something or cause I'm sure
Kevin Bright, you know, they interviewedand I'm sure that they publicized
that he didn't have any information.

(52:10):
So that must have been a sighof relief for Dennis Rader.
Right?
So then at some point afterhe kills Nancy, Joe Fox Raider
sends a sarcastic poem to thenewspaper and he does sign it BTK.
But for some reason, the news init's a, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a
poem about his murdering Shirley, um,which was one of his previous murders.

(52:33):
Right?
I think it was the one before Nancyand he sends it to the, the newspaper.
Really even notice it, they send itto the classified section and then
it doesn't have any money with it.
Cause I guess that was around December.
Right.
So I guess they're thinking,you know, early 78.
So probably before Valentine'seighth, they thought it was

(52:54):
a Valentine's day thing.
So they were, they didn't, it didn'tinclude any money, so they're not
going to run the ad, but they had itanother time where they had something
and signed by BTK where they just, youknow, um, you know, they had gotten
multiple letters from him by now.
Somebody should have put this together.
I mean, it's all in Wichita, right?
So it's not even a matter of itbeing a different jurisdiction.

(53:15):
It's all the same.
I think the police struggled with tryingto, um, even those went on for so long.
I don't know if they didn't have enoughmanpower or they weren't focused or they
didn't have, I mean, they, they certainlydidn't publicize the information.
It sounds to me like they had a momentwhere, and maybe they didn't, but

(53:36):
Raider, you know, is upset with thembecause he's not giving them enough.
And it leads them to believe in what hesays to them is, you know, I'm going to
do this again, and now he does it again.
And the police do blame themselves abit for not stopping it because they
think if they acknowledged him inthe Shirley, um, the Shirley murder,
then they wouldn't, he it's possible.

(53:58):
He wouldn't have murdered NancyFox surely, uh, via, I doubt that.
I think he still would'vemurdered Nancy Fox.
I honestly, I mean, weknow that he progresses.

Brittney Sherman (54:07):
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Uh, the w here's another area where I feellike he should have gotten caught, which
has no shame or blame here, but he, hewrote a poem called Shirley locks that he
sent to the paper and his wife actuallyread that poem and commented to a friend.

(54:30):
That person writes like Dennis,they have poor spelling and
grammar, just like he does.
So

Sonia Meza-Leon (54:35):
she had no suspicion, but

Brittney Sherman (54:37):
she recognized

Sonia Meza-Leon (54:38):
it.
Well, she caught him writing that letterand he told her that he was writing
a free as criminal justice class.
And yeah, no, she, not only did shesee it in the newspaper later, but
she saw it in his hands when he waswriting it, he continued to write it.
And then he went ahead and sent itand he talk and he told her that he

(54:59):
was, it was, he was writing it forhis criminal justice class about BTK.
So he told his wife there's a letter inhis hand was written about BTK, which was.
No, that was his wife again.
There's no you in a million years.
I don't care if I was his wife.
I wouldn't have known either.
I wouldn't have thought about it.
I mean, they've also got his phone call.

(55:19):
They've got this voice,they released this voice.
They released that recording a bit later,but again, I don't know why they waited.
They needed some, the policereally needed some strategy here.
I don't think that they, um,they had a really clear strategy
behind what they were trying toachieve other than solving it.
And I don't know if they just really,they thought about it and they really
plotted as well as they probably shouldhave to actually make this happen.

(55:40):
So, so again, Nancy, Jo Fox, 25 years oldmurder, December 8th, 1977 in Wichita.
And she was strangled as well.

Brittney Sherman (55:50):
Victim number

Sonia Meza-Leon (55:52):
eight.
Yeah, we are number eight.

Brittney Sherman (55:56):
So, uh, from 1978, December of 78, through 1985, or until
1985, Dennis was able to quell hisfactor X and resumed his activities
in the community and in the church.
And his son was super into boy Scouts.
So he became a troop leader who wasactive in the community until he was

(56:20):
unable to keep that factor down and sawan opportunity being a troop leader with
his son on an outing of camping outing.
So victim number eight is Marinehedge, a widow and neighbor, uh,
from down the street of Dennis Rader.

(56:41):
So in this story on April 27th, he ledhis boy scout troop out on a camping
trip with a couple other chaperones and.
Said that he was going to go to bed early.
He took this opportunity while thekids were still up doing camping
stuff and drove his car to a bowlingalley of all places had a beer then

(57:06):
pretended to be drunk and call thetaxi to take him to Marines home.
When he got to her home, he didwhat his become his emo cutting her
phone line, snuck in through theback and waited for her to get home.
This is extremely similar.

(57:27):
Profiling and activity to Nancy Fox.
A man came home with her, which he wasn'texpecting, but left Dennis came out of
the, uh, the, of hiding after the man leftand choked 53 year old Marine to death.

Sonia Meza-Leon (57:44):
Oh my God.
Uh let's I'm going to back up a littlebit and talk about Marine because
I had a couple of things that arereally important to say about Marine.
Um, number one, she's older thanher other victim, his other victims.
Um, but that's, he was aging too.
So that actually doesn'tsurprise me that much.
She was 53 and most of his othervictims were, uh, 40, uh, when it

(58:08):
comes to women and things like that.
Well, I thought they

Brittney Sherman (58:10):
were like in their twenties.
Well, there were a variety of ages.

Sonia Meza-Leon (58:15):
Actually you're right.
No, no.
They were in their thirties in there.
Yeah.
You're out 38, 28,

Brittney Sherman (58:21):
25.

Sonia Meza-Leon (58:23):
Yeah.
So yeah, you're

Brittney Sherman (58:25):
right.
You're totally right about, hewas 40 now, so he was getting
older, so yeah, you're right.
I mean, he was like, he wasactually almost like attacking
women similar in age to him.
And now he's 40, she's53, but he he's aging.

Sonia Meza-Leon (58:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, one of the reasons too is becausehe may have, I mean, his ability to
control them, you know, as if they'reyounger, it may not be that easy anymore.
What's interesting.
A couple of other things that areinteresting about Maureen first off his
entire family, newer, she lived aboutsix houses down, which is pretty ballsy.
If you asked me, Dennis knewthis woman, um, you know,

(59:05):
she, I think she lived alone.
He, I cannot believe that he chosehis neighbor six doors down to
stock and then figure out this plan.
It was right.
Yeah.
And his daughter recalls when this womandied and nobody tied it to BTK at all.
Even though it seemedfairly obvious, right?

(59:26):
At least maybe the daughterat the time didn't tie it.
But you know, it, if somebodydies six doors down from me, I'm
going to freaking remember it.
It's going to be a thing.
And it's like, you're your friend, youknow, their family friend or whatever.
Um, all right.
So backing up to, to your point, Dennisre and that's why I wanted to say that
was because what's important aboutthat is that's why he had to figure

(59:47):
out another way to get to her house.
Besides just walking down the street ortaking a direct route, he needed an alibi.
So it was a Cub scout thing.
Then he had to come back into town,drop his car off at the bowling alley.
Like you said, it takes a cabpretends, like he's drunk.
Oh, let me get out right here.
So he has the cab dropper drophim off somewhere close to her

(01:00:08):
house, but not in front of it.
So nobody would have been the wiser.
Right.
Also, I want to sortof lay the scene of it.
This is a 53 year old woman, awoman that he knows a nice woman.
Apparently he stands there inhides for quite a long time and
then waits for her to go to sleep.
And then the middle of thenight, he turns on the bathroom
light and the closet light.

(01:00:29):
Well, I'm sure she's pooping,you know, bricks by now.
Cause she's like, oh my God,there's somebody in my house.
He comes in and he laysdown next to her in bed.
So freaking gross.
So yeah, same old bullshitthat he always pulls.
Like you said, Brittany, youknow, he strangled her, but

(01:00:49):
this is a woman that he knew.
This is what is perplexing to me.
Not only did he know her and not onlydid he murder her, but he defiled her.
He took her dead.
To his church.
He, he had it set up at the church.
He had like black plasticand all this shit.
And so he was ready for her.

(01:01:09):
And so he took her there and hetook this to this nice woman.
And go ahead.
He

Brittney Sherman (01:01:15):
was president of the church council.
So he had full access to thechurch whenever he wanted.
So this wasn't like a weirdthing for him to go into it.
I mean, it might be weird to go in themiddle of the night regardless, but it's
not like he was this guy breaking in andthat had w that shouldn't have access.
It was okay.
That he was there when he was there.

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:01:35):
Well, yeah, but he still brought a woman in and then back out.
Yeah, terrifying.
So he brings poor Marine and he's gotthis planned ahead of time that he
is going to take photographs of her.
And he ties her up in a variety ofbondage, you know, I guess positions.

(01:01:56):
And he takes photographs of her.
And then when he's done, he takes her bodyand he dumps her in a remote location.
I don't think they find her forlike nine days, this poor woman.
I mean, just so, so terrible.
What's

Brittney Sherman (01:02:09):
of so weird about this to me is he's almost treating her with
reverence and taking these pictures andthen he just decides to dispose of her.
Like it it's like kind of polaropposites, the way that he treats her.
I don't really, I mean, I don't understandwhat's going on in his head, but I just,

(01:02:30):
to me, this was, it was especially weird.
I think this was the weirdest strangestone for me, because it was just a bunch
of activities that don't seem to have.

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:02:41):
Yeah.
Well, remember this was when hehad come back from his hiatus too.
So of course he may havebeen a little off his game.
He maybe was teed up, like hesays, you know, with factor X.
Oh.
By the way, he, um, I'm prettysure that he nicknamed his penis.
Um,

Brittney Sherman (01:03:00):
yeah.
That's okay.
I don't know.

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:03:04):
Yeah, no, it's important though.
Oh, my phone died.
You have to look it up on your computer.
I can look it up right now.
So, um, S S B T orsomething is what it is.

Brittney Sherman (01:03:14):
Okay.
Well, uh, while I look that up on mycomputer and I should probably block my
search history for this, um, you know,what's on you, we're going so strong.
I think this needs to be a two-parter.
So, um, I think we shouldwrap this up right now.
We actually have gone over anhour, but, um, we will come back

(01:03:35):
and talk about his last killings.
And then of course, how he ultimatelygot himself caught, which was
another horrible act of hubris.
Anything else you want to add?

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:03:50):
Well, I think you guys can look forward to the second
episode where I'm going to have alot of strong opinions about Dennis
Rader and my feelings for him asa human being more than they've
already had the victims through.
Yes, I, it will.
It gets worse.
It gets worse.
I can't, I can't even believe thatit gets worse, but it gets worse

(01:04:12):
because, and we'll, we'll talk aboutit in a minute, but we'll talk about
the ninth victim and then we'll alsotalk about again, how he got caught.
So stay tuned, scar lettuce.

Brittney Sherman (01:04:21):
All right.
Well, um, thanks for listening.
Stick around for the end to hear fromsome of our other favorite shows that
we like to give shout outs to you.
We always love supportingindependent podcasters.
Uh, keep in mind, we are partof the pod all the time podcast
network, check them out on socialmedia when you're checking us out.

(01:04:42):
All right.
We are the ladies of Scarlet.
Oh.
And, uh, Dennis Raidersnickname for his penis.
Keep killing it.
Nana Checko, a couple otherpodcasters that support us

(01:05:05):
and we want to give them some

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:05:07):
support.
Hey fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners.
I'm CC the host of anew true crime podcast.
Sooner state, true crime as aborn and bred Oki I'll cover cases
based in my wonderful home state ofOklahoma, the term sooner actually

(01:05:27):
refers to tutors in the land run.
My state's very first true crime.
New episodes are released twice amonth in apple podcasts and most
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So come away with me to my crime stateon the Sooners state, true crime podcast,

(01:05:48):
and please stay sooner, safe out there.
Y'all
hi everyone.
I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice.
When violent acts occur, we tend tothink the predators are monsters.
Surely no human could do suchthings, but if we're honest, only

(01:06:09):
humans commit malicious crime.
And if you're like me, youwant to know why to find out.
Join me at malice, whereveryou listen to podcasts by,
Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall.
I'm one of those two musics that henow will want a podcast about the good,
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(01:06:32):
Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1dispatchers with over 60 years of expanse.
Join us as we play 9 1,1 calls and discuss them.
Oh, did I mention that we get dark 9 1 1.
What's your emergency?

Brittney Sherman (01:06:52):
How many people did you

Sonia Meza-Leon (01:06:53):
shoot?
yeah, my husband and theystopped my daughter and laid me.

(01:07:20):
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downloadable on every podcast platform.

Brittney Sherman (01:07:30):
We want to give a shout out to the pod all the time
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Sonia Meza-Leon (01:07:39):
members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative
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(01:08:02):
I think we're doing it podcasts.

Brittney Sherman (01:08:04):
So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check
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