April 20, 2020 • 48 mins
It's Rick James B****
Rick James, Super Freak. Not just a song title, a way of life for the former king of funk. Known to a generation as a joke from Chappelle's show, before that Rick James was the King of Funk, but he had a sordid criminal life on the side. The Ladies of Scarlet dissect Rick's early upbringings and exposure to crime, to his final undoing when his career could no longer take it.
Sources:
Wikipedia
Biography.com
Tales from the Tour Bus
Chappelle's Show
LA Times
Disgraceland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonia Meza-Leon (00:39):
Hey, Scarlett is we are back to talk about
our next true crime episode.
And I am so excited about thisepisode because this is about one
of my favorite, um, musicians.
And.
Uh, of all time.
And I say that because I absolutelythink that his music is fantastic.
(01:03):
I, um, he's, you know, he has beena part of some very important,
um, you know, music in the past.
And he was really, in my opinion,what I, my note about this.
Um, is that he was thefunk, a tear innovator.
And I know that there are otherpeople who could probably get that as,
um, sort of recognition as well sayBootsy Collins, or are maybe prints.
(01:27):
But I think that Rick Jameswas the forerunner in the.
innovation department.
Um, you know, he had some incrediblypopular music in the past, so, but, uh,
Brittney, as we will talk about, he alsohad some, uh, some issues we will say.
And, um, he has some, um, youknow, true crime in his past.
(01:48):
He was convicted, uh, a couple of timesof some serious crimes, in my opinion.
I don't want us to, uh, glossover nor, um, sort of dismiss.
So we're going to chat a little bitabout what the, about those crimes,
but first we're going to talk a littlebit about Rick James and his history,
because I think the beginning of hislife was really interesting and he
(02:08):
knew a lot of interesting people.
So, you know, without further ado, RickJames I E James Ambrose Johnson Jr.
Was born February 1st, 1948,better known by his stage name.
Rick James pretty.
(02:28):
How do you know, how do you James?
Cause I, well, I lived throughthe time when he was, his
music was really important.
So you probably heard it after.
Brittney Sherman (02:37):
Well, yes.
So, uh, I know Rick James based off of.
Really one song.
Sonia Meza-Leon (02:48):
Oh my gosh.
Well, there's another song that youwill probably remember that he did.
And that was given to me, baby, whichis another one to my favorite songs.
I know, I
Brittney Sherman (03:00):
do know that one too, but I know him for.
Uh, the four, the first one.
Yeah, I know for a super freak.
Uh, and then I also know, andwe'll talk about this later.
We also know, or I also knowhim from Chappelle show and it's
funny because I didn't even watchChappelle show, but it was so iconic
(03:21):
when he was featured on there.
And Dave Chappelle's apparentlyspot on characterization of him
and his famous catch for AEs.
I'm
Sonia Meza-Leon (03:32):
Rick James bitch, which, uh, I think it's consistent
with him throughout his life.
He, um, you know, is no longerliving, but he, as I said, he was
born in 1948 in Buffalo, New York.
And he began his musicalcareer pretty early.
Um, in his teenage years, hereally felt like that he was,
um, you know, he had a gift.
(03:53):
He, and he did have a gift.
Brittney Sherman (03:54):
That's true.
But before he started and before he gotinto music, He's ventures into criminal
life started as early as age nine.
Sonia Meza-Leon (04:04):
Yes.
And a lot of that was becausehis mother was a numbers runner
actually for the mob in New York.
So he witnessed a lot of different things.
Um, and you know, this was, I mean,Hey, I, I get to give it to her.
You know, she's raising kids, she'sgoing to do whatever she needs to do.
But for him, this, this model,his, his life a bit, and
(04:24):
certainly set him on a path.
Now, I think he spent a lot of his time.
You know, a lot of his life, youknow, not committing criminal acts.
Certainly he did some importantthings, but, you know, I think
that he may have made some choicesthroughout his life that, um, were
affected by that early modeling.
Not to, not to be all properabout it, but, you know, he saw
some things happening and he waslike, ah, you know, his, his moral
(04:46):
character may have been in question.
Let's just say, well,
Brittney Sherman (04:49):
sure.
But I have to say, I wassurprised how much he was.
Uh, how, how many criminalacts he really was involved in?
I didn't know much about them.
I knew a lot about the drugs, but I knowabout the criminal acts, uh, because yeah,
so not only was his mother involved inrunning the numbers, uh, which if you're
(05:10):
not familiar with that, look it up.
It's kind of like atype of illegal lottery.
It's really kind offascinating to read about.
Uh, but he was part of that.
They're out.
And he was only nineyears old at the time.
So that's very early, uh, age.
Of course, can't say that hereally had any control over that.
His mom was doing that as opposed toworking a and working another job, doing
(05:34):
what she could to make ends meet becausehis father was no longer in the picture.
Uh, his father left.
Sonia Meza-Leon (05:40):
Uh, but
Brittney Sherman (05:42):
with, with his mother, he, she, she.
Well, she was trying to dothe best that she could.
She also sent him to a private Catholicschool and he attended elementary school
at a private school and was expecting.
Several times.
I don't know how you get expelled severaltimes from one school, because I've always
thought once you get expelled, it meansyou're you're out out, but he was expelled
(06:06):
at least three times from the sameCatholic school for causing trouble, uh,
not criminal per se, but he showed earlysigns of not being the most stand up.
And, uh, the best kidthat may preview what.
(06:26):
Later do, uh, an
Sonia Meza-Leon (06:27):
adulthood.
So as we said, you know, he was in variousbands, you know, he hung out early on,
I think with Neil young and they werein a band together for quite a while.
He actually went to Canada in 1964, um,because he did not want to be drafted.
And unfortunately, um, he formed,well, not unfortunately, but he, he
(06:48):
formed a band in Canada apparently.
Um, the minor burrs, which I think is areally interesting name, but that was so.
Brittney Sherman (06:56):
He keep in mind though.
He went to Canada because he actuallyenlisted when he was 16 years old
in the United States military.
And he enlisted as a reservist and he.
Fled to Canada when the UnitedStates, uh, went to Vietnam and the
Vietnam war broke out and he D hedidn't want to be sent into war.
(07:19):
So he officially went AWOL byfleeting to Canada, which is of
course a felony in military court.
And so he was a fugitive on therun when he started his musical.
Sonia Meza-Leon (07:32):
Ah, okay.
Got it.
So, yeah.
Was he avoiding?
Oh, so he was avoiding being sent, buthe was already, he wouldn't be dressed.
Oh, he was a reservist.
So he could be drafted intothe full-time military.
Exactly.
Okay.
Brittney Sherman (07:46):
Yeah.
So he essentially signed up to be areservist, so that way he wouldn't be
drafted ultimately, but once the Vietnamwar picked up, he could be moved up from
being a reservist to full-time like.
Sonia Meza-Leon (08:01):
Got it.
So again, as we said, he formed the band,the Mynah birds, and they got a recording
deal with Motown records in 1966.
Um, that means that he was 22 years old.
And as you said, Brittany, his careerhad to be halted a bit because he had
to go deal with his one-year prison termthat he received for the draft charges.
(08:24):
So.
After he was released, he left New Yorkand then he moved to California where
he, he really ultimately started, uh, arock and a funk group, uh, or multiple
groups in the sixties and seventies.
So he, this was where he reallyformed, you know, what we know to
be Rick James before he really was.
And he started the band stone city band.
(08:47):
Before he did that.
He was really a rock and roll guy.
He actually wasn't like a funk guy.
He wasn't an R and B guy.
He was really, you know,truly rock and roll.
So when he started the stone city band,they, you know, I think they really
found their stride and, and they,the release the album come and get.
That had, um, that was in 1978 andhad hits on it like you and I and Mary
(09:11):
Jane and Mary Jane of course, was aboutmarijuana and anybody who says that
they didn't realize that that songwasn't about marijuana is bananas.
I think some of the records labels,well, the record labels are like,
oh, well we didn't even know.
We thought he was talking about a lady.
I'm like, no, come on.
Yes.
Because Rick James was really, really,um, Outward about his marijuana use.
(09:36):
He has giant, like we knowjoints on the stage next to him.
There were times where he wasthreatened to be, um, you know,
essentially arrested because he hadpot on stage and wouldn't stop smoking.
And, you know, he wasencouraged as council
Brittney Sherman (09:51):
goers to
Sonia Meza-Leon (09:51):
join him.
Yeah.
And I was just watching Brittany, the, uh,I got my information from a variety of.
And some of which I think that we'remeant to be comedic, but I still, there
were real interviews with Rick James andwhether he was kidding or not, I think
it gave some insight into his personal.
This one I was just watchingwas about, uh, was the Charlie
(10:13):
Murphy, Dave Chappelle thing.
Um, it was, you know, I mean, reallyfunny, but so, you know, some of these
things that seem too weird to be true,I think were actually true because
when you're working at that level, Imean, he was friends with Eddie Murphy.
He was friends with Stevie wonder.
I think Stevie wonder was the one whotold him to call himself Rick James.
And, um, you know, he was cause I thinkhe was going by Ricky before that.
(10:34):
Something and, and yeah, and Ithink Stevie wonder was right.
You know, he, Rick James spent a lotof time with a lot of important people.
He, um, you know, he, he, I mean,he was a very, very famous man.
And if you watch any of theinterviews with him, he knew it.
I mean, you know, he really expectedeverybody to know who he was.
(10:55):
He had a little.
Stage presence, we'll call it.
And, um, you know, he hungwith some very famous people.
He dated Linda Blair for acouple of years, which I think
is a really interesting, weird,I thought that tote, I thought
Brittney Sherman (11:07):
that too, and yeah.
She actually got pregnant by his child.
Sonia Meza-Leon (11:12):
Yeah.
Which he was really sad aboutbecause she did not have that child.
And so he was really sad thathe didn't know at the time.
Um, but they were togetherfor a year or two.
So that's a stage of time.
It wasn't in passing.
No, but you know, this was him.
I mean, if you w another source thatI took a lot of information from, and
I thought was really insightful and.
(11:34):
Thoughtful actually wastales from the tour bus.
The Mike judge show where he takes audio,um, and some live action interviews and
he animated, he puts it to animation andit is so good because it is it's good.
It's so good.
I mean, There are a lot of episodes aboutcountry singers and things like that.
But there's the second season iswhere he gets into more R and B
(11:58):
and funk and broadens it a bit.
And he does a two-parter episode aboutRick James and a large part of the second.
You know, the second partis about Rick James and his.
Contentious relationship with prince.
So I want to talk about that a bitbecause I, I know you have prints.
So I know, I know there was a timeremember where, you know, Rick James was
(12:19):
on the top of the world and he, before,
Brittney Sherman (12:23):
before we get into prince, I think, I think we're jumping
over a few things that, um, are maybeindicative of his, his criminal past.
Sonia Meza-Leon (12:36):
Oh, sure.
Well, I mean, through this entiresituation, through this, his entire
life, we know that he did a lot of drugs.
So if that's what you're referring to,
Brittney Sherman (12:46):
but that's not what I'm referring to.
Sonia Meza-Leon (12:49):
I'm referring to.
I think that consistentlywe can all agree.
And Rick James will be thefirst to tell us that he did
a lot of drugs throughout his.
Um, cocaine is a powerfuldrug and marijuana is awesome.
And I wouldn't be surprisedif he smoked pot a lot just to
kind of regulate himself, buthe did a lot of, lot of drugs.
He was on drugs.
Brittney Sherman (13:07):
Drugs is like, in my opinion, so minor in comparison,
uh, because yeah, he, uh, I mean,just to just touch on it at one point,
he said he was, he spent like $7,000a week for five years on cocaine.
And, uh, his tour bus was like acloud of marijuana smoke all the time.
(13:28):
Uh, but regardless of that, part ofit, he, uh, You mentioned, which is
so totally true, how he is such a,you know, he, he knew his fame, he
thought a lot of himself, he kind of,he felt like he was on top of the world.
And to a certain extent, he reallywas like, he was the, he was the
king of funk at, you know, in thelate seventies, early eighties.
(13:50):
Yes.
He was the pioneer for all of this.
And he had some really powerfuland influential friends.
But to your point previouslyabout Stevie, wonder how he.
Yeah.
He's the one that essentially toldhim to call himself Rick James.
He went through a few different namesbefore he settled on Rick James, because
he first was convicted of being a draftDodger for going AWOL in the military.
(14:17):
And he spent a year in military prison.
Then he was arrested again for asecond military charge, but was
able to get, uh, essentially.
Get off on that chargebecause he knew someone in it.
And at the time before he even movedto Los Angeles, he was trying to
go to Motown and Motown was veryinterested in him, but because of his
(14:41):
past with the military and the stuffthat he got into as a kid, Montan
didn't want anything to do with him.
So he actually changed hisname two or three times before
he settled on Rick James.
So even though he was very confident andpowerful and he knew he was so famous.
There was, I still think this otherside to him that he was, he was
(15:02):
constantly running from his past because.
Of all the things that he left
Sonia Meza-Leon (15:07):
in his wake.
Well sort of, I mean, I thinkthat there's a point where it
didn't matter what happened in hispast because he was Rick James.
I mean, once you got tothat point, definitely.
I mean, and that it got tothat point rather quickly.
I mean, Rick James was pretty much.
Pretty quick in his life.
You know, he, he was, um, he achievedfame at a young age, you know, he,
again, he was a musician, he wasin bands when he was a teenager.
(15:31):
So he knew this area very well.
He signed with Motownand at the age of 22.
So yeah, that's super young.
Yeah.
He was already there.
Like he went from zero to 60 and I,and that is a tough one for someone
who's doing drugs because it'sawfully hard for you to regulate when.
Events like significant eventshappening in your life, but even if
(15:52):
you're the vents in your life or,you know, good, positive or negative
traumatic events are really, um, hardfor people who have drug addictions,
um, they're triggers, you know, soeven the best situations can trigger a
drug addict into, you know, a spiral.
But, um, yeah, he.
He definitely realized.
(16:13):
And he definitely understood that he hadto make some changes and to get around
things, to get where he wanted to go.
But he always was, you know, I thinkthat he was dead set, that he was
going to be famous and successful inhis life, no matter what he had to
Brittney Sherman (16:24):
do.
I think that's probably true.
And, uh, one of the things that,uh, I don't know if you plan on
coming back to it or not, but thatyou mentioned to me and I, I looked
up a little bit, was his looseconnection with the Manson family also.
Sonia Meza-Leon (16:40):
Well, it wasn't the Manson family.
He had a connection with, it wasthe, uh, Sharon Tate family because
he reached, James was friendswith Jay Sebring and Rick James
was supposed to be at the house.
He was supposed to be at theSharon Tate home with JC bring
the night of the Manson murders.
But, uh, apparently he got scared.
Um, shockingly, he did some drugsand whatever happened and he
(17:03):
didn't, he was too messed up to go.
Yeah.
Which it sounds like that that happenedon, um, pretty frequently, you know,
but again, you've got these reallypowerful people, as we know, in
Hollywood and in music and whatever,and they just there's no, um, They're
not held to the same standard that therest of us are because of this one.
I've been a regular person.
They would have kicked him to the curb.
Um, you know, and his friends,I think kept him safe too.
(17:25):
He was very good friendswith Eddie Murphy.
He, again, smokey Robinson.
He, uh, he was the one.
So I want to go back because I wantto talk a little bit about the Rick
James and sort of his progression.
And I think that's where we go back andtalk about prince, because there was a
time where Rick James was on tour, verypopular and prince was just coming out.
(17:50):
And so this would have been around the,this would have been in the seventies and.
You know, Rick James really sawhimself as, as an iconic figure and
an actual, he really saw himself asan important African-American figure.
And he really thought it wasimportant that he get, you know,
sort of the credit for that.
He, he had somehow or another hadseen, um, prince and he asked prince
(18:15):
and he asked another, I think,another band to come on tour with him.
And I think maybe it was, uh, the otherband that was on tour with, I forget
who it was, but it was somebody elsethat he had to come on tour with him.
Um, shoot.
Not Sheely.
We'll figure that one outlater, Rick James asked prince
to go on tour with them.
Um, you know, all that's fantastic forprince because he gets all this exposure
(18:40):
and, um, he, you know, of course killsit because he's prince now, Rick James
starts getting, uh, jealous of princeand starts and re you gotta remember,
let's step back for a second here.
Um, the Rick James band, thestone city band, this was a band.
Five or six, I don't recall.
Six foot tall or over blackmen with giant braids.
(19:05):
And he asked his bandto wear those braids.
And they finally agreed becausehe said that he wanted them
all to look like warriors.
You know, I think that it's importantto understand that he realized pretty
early on that his performance and theway he looked and the way he conveyed
himself was important for him as, as anAfrican-American African-American men.
(19:26):
And it was a powerful statementthat he was trying to make.
He wanted some recognition, youknow, he wanted to be respected and I
think he was respected for his music.
Certainly he did some,some really great things.
So again, prince goes on tour with him.
Then prince and Rick James startgetting into this competition.
You know, they, again, RickJames feels threatened by this.
(19:49):
So prince prince in myopinion is fantastic.
And I, and I'm sorry, Rick James, butI feel like prince is far more, you
know, uh, you know, talented, let's justsay his body of work as much better.
And it's probably because he wasnot as focused on these other
distractions of Rick James.
Right.
So prince started a side band withhis friend Morris day called the time.
(20:13):
And then so did Rick James, Rick starteda side band to compete with them, but
his side band was called like the dorags or something, which is that's
exactly what it was name horrible.
And then prince started a girl'sband, which was vanity six.
So in turn, Rick James startsa girl's band called the Mary
Jane girls and the Mary Jane.
(20:34):
They were successful.
Um, that was Joanne.
I don't recall her lastname, but I thought I really
liked the Mary Jane girls.
I liked a couple of their songs.
I thought they were kind of awesome.
That was very popular, like theMiami club scene and like the early
nineties, um, you know, the MaryJane girls and the Tina Marie was
also a big supporter of Rick James.
And he wrote songs where hewrote multiple songs for her.
(20:56):
He wrote a couple of songs for thetemptations and then also smokey room.
So, you know, he, he could do goodthings when he put his mind to it.
The part that I thought was reallyinteresting was, and you know, for a
lot of reasons was his relationship withEddie Murphy, because as you can, if I
would highly suggest watching the CharlieMurphy tales from the, you know, whatever.
Brittney Sherman (21:20):
Each or Hollywood story on Chappelle's show.
Sonia Meza-Leon (21:23):
It's fantastic.
Good.
Because I feel like that that's the rea realistic view of what Eddie Murphy's
relationship with, with Rick James was,you know, and Rick James went so far
as to write and produce that God awfulsong that Eddie Murphy, um, actually
performed party all the time, whichwe, if you remember this song, if you
(21:44):
don't remember the song, look it up.
It's amazing.
Rick James is in the video.
It is.
I watched
Brittney Sherman (21:48):
the video last night.
Sonia Meza-Leon (21:49):
God.
Awful.
Like I so bad.
And my God, the song has got awful.
I don't care about the video, butno, I know the songs terrible.
Eddie Murphy.
I love Eddie Murphy.
I think he's incredibly funny, butman, he needs to not, not foray
into a musical, whatever it's
Brittney Sherman (22:07):
party all the time was Rick James is attempt
to have a party song in recent.
So prince is party like it's 1999.
Sonia Meza-Leon (22:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Everything that, that, you know,Rick James was doing after he
met prince was in response to.
And it's success.
The other thing that you have toremember about prince and also Michael
Jackson and Rick James was the Vic.
James was really offended this rightaround the time where at T V came out
and, um, you know, they re MTV, wouldn'tplay Rick James, his videos and Ray MTV
(22:40):
will say, well, they were too vulgar.
They were offensive.
And some might say that they were,but they would play prince and
they would play Michael Jackson.
Now it's hard not to play princeand Michael Jackson because
they're so freaking popular.
But the other thing is that princehad a movie prince had purple rain.
People wanted to see prince, andI love that movie and I didn't
find that movie offensive at all.
I mean, I, I, I'm notsaying prince is a good day.
(23:03):
You know, and under the, under the cherrymoon was another booth, but I don't care
because I really like watching prince.
So there was something about hispersonality and I always felt that
there was an innocence to princeand I always thought there was,
um, I don't ever feel like that.
He was a person who, in my opinion,sort of promoted violence and.
Honestly, I'd love that he was justkind of like this kind of funk, funky,
(23:25):
like, you know, romantic hippie guy, youknow, I mean, he was, um, I don't know.
Anyway, I just, I I'mendeared to him for sure.
Um, but it very interesting, youknow, the Rick James was very pissed.
He was pissed.
Prince and Michael Jackson, he'slike, look, you know, there's,
you guys shouldn't be on MTV.
You know, you should be supportingyour fellow black man and boy Connie,
(23:46):
because they won't play my videos.
And, um, apparently prince and MichaelJackson did not agree with that.
You know, there's probably sometruth across the board to all the
different, different challenges.
Let's just say, because principalsin a knee or a prince, uh, Rick
James was an easy, easy guy toget along with and he was very,
you know, open and he didn't say.
(24:08):
You know, he wasn't slick,you know, when he talked, I
mean, he would call on anybody.
He just, I think it was a little differentthan what than to be really wanted to
be promoting, you know, from that side.
So it was, it was a bummer, but, uh,there's some good interviews, even in that
tales, from the tour bus, from the Mikejudge thing, there's some cool interviews
where Rick James talks about that withthe issues with MTV, it's worth a watch.
(24:29):
You know, but the prince thingand the Rick James, obviously
prince went on to do great things.
And Rick James sort of spiraledand sort of went downhill.
Um, you know, from there.
Brittney Sherman (24:40):
Would I, what I took from it in tales from the tour bus they
show, which I believe is probably totallyaccurate when prince was opening for
Rick James, Rick James would stand onthe side of the stage and watch prince.
And then when Rick James wasperforming, prince was standing on
the opposite side of the stage andwatch Rick James and they pushed each
other and they motivated each other.
(25:02):
And what I took from thatis prince took that as.
He's pushing me to anotherlevel to succeed and I'm going
to step up to that level.
But I took that Rick James lookedat prince as this guy is encroaching
in on my fame and he's a threat.
And instead of using it to motivatehimself, he actually started
down more of a downward slope.
Sonia Meza-Leon (25:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, he was the incumbent,so that's principle, you know,
principles the up and coming there.
So that's, that's the natural progression.
I think, um, it was hard for Rick James.
You know, he fell out of favor.
He upset a lot of people.
Again, MTV did not, you know,sort of promote his videos.
And, um, he continuedto do a lot of drugs.
(25:43):
Um, his it's his mainstream successultimately peaked in around 1985.
He released an album called glowand then apparently he was on a
team, which I was not aware of.
Uh, and I was on the show 18.
I do know the showy team when I'mnot interested in watching any
of, I don't think I ever watched.
Yeah.
I didn't know he was on that show.
That's interesting.
(26:04):
Yeah, it sounds like he made an appearanceand I don't know why that would be like
a stellar moment in his career, butmaybe it was the beginning of the end.
I don't know.
Um, and then rememberhere's what's important.
Remember about RickJames, a lot of people.
First off Rick James, number one, anyGrammys for any, any songs that he
produced, um, and release on his own, hedid however, win a Grammy with MC hammer
(26:27):
when MC hammer sampled super freak.
So probably, yeah.
That could have ever happened to Rick.
James was an MC hammer, did that.
It was really important.
And I also thought it was reallyimportant that MC hammer give
Rick James credit for that.
Because so many times these dayspeople are sampling and stealing and
they just, um, nothing ever happens.
And he'd go to court forever.
I mean, look whathappened with vanilla ice?
(26:48):
You know, these, these, these frickingtrials play out forever and they
go on and on and everybody loses.
So I thought that was really great.
Um, you know, The MC hammer wasable to allow that to happen.
And then in the 1990s, um, it soundslike this is when Rick James his
career really went off the rails.
(27:09):
He, the beginning of the end, inmy opinion, he had legal issues.
Uh, apparently he was convictedof two separate instances.
So he was convicted of for twoseparate instances of kidnapping
and torturing two separate.
While under the influence ofcrack cocaine and he actually
(27:29):
served three years, um, for that.
Now let's talk a little bit about thatbecause yes, I, I am going to, I, I tried
to find information about this case andwhat I found with Brittany, I told you
was that it seems like that th these,these crimes that he committed were sort
of the side note to, you know, Even thisarticle that I read, which I'm going
(27:52):
to refer to, it was written in, um, itwas published in the Los Angeles times.
So it was written by AaronCurtis and Jack Cheevers.
And it was from August 3rd, 1991.
And the headline reads singer RickJames' girlfriend arrested on charges
of torturing woman crime, the couple reallegedly burn the victim with a crack
cocaine pipe and sexually abused her.
(28:14):
So, okay.
That's an interesting headline.
Um, the.
What's really, I don't think that it'sfair to just sort of glaze over that.
I think it's really, um, in myopinion, a bit offensive, and it
sounds like that this was may havebeen typical behavior for Rick James.
Um, but it was sort of looked overand I'm not going to equate Rick James
(28:36):
to, um, R Kelly per se, because Ithink that was a lot more criminal.
What R Kelly used to do.
But I think that there were things thatprobably happened in Rick James life that.
Others would think back on and think thatthey probably should have done something
or what he was doing was illegal.
I think that he had another womancome forward that said that he
raped her when she was in a boardingschool or in a school in Buffalo yet.
(29:00):
And we'll get to that in a little bit.
Yeah.
And that happened earlyon in the seventies.
So the crime that Rick James wasconvicted of with his girlfriend,
apparently she was 23 or 24.
She was 21 at the time when he wonand they were at his house in the
Hollywood Hills and essentially hewas arrested for imprisoning and
(29:24):
torturing this 24 year old woman witha hot cocaine pipe over three days.
Uh, the actual crimes that he wasconvicted of were, uh, Let's see
suspicion of assault, the deadlyweapon, false imprisonment, correct?
Worst oral copulation makingterrorist threats and furnishing
(29:45):
narcotics to this 24 year old woman.
Apparently this was not the Sthis was not the first incident.
Um, there was also, um, some, some,uh, key something brought against him
for doing something similar to a musicexecutive, a young music exhibit.
Brittney Sherman (30:02):
So he, uh, I think so he was, he held her captive for
three days and ultimately I think thesuspicion turned out to be accurate.
You know, he drugged her, he forcedher to do sex acts on his girlfriend.
Uh, Tonya.
Sonia Meza-Leon (30:22):
Tanya has her jazzy
Brittney Sherman (30:24):
Hejazi.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, of course false imprisonment.
Oh, oh, strange.
I, I found this to be a reallystrange crime because what.
Oh, I guess, what do you get out of anycrime, but holding someone for three days,
forcing drugs on them and forcing themto perform sex acts on your girlfriend.
(30:46):
I mean, what is the, whatwas the point of that?
What drove him to that?
That's what I don't understand.
Like it was just such a bad high.
Was it such a drug induced motivation?
That's what I don't
Sonia Meza-Leon (30:57):
understand.
Well, here's what I think thatlet's just call it what it is.
This was in the time or Rick James career.
If this would have happened inthe height of his career, this
wouldn't have been a crime.
And I can guarantee you that thisprobably happened frequently.
You know where I mean, that'swhat it looks like to me.
They, he would be with multiple women.
(31:21):
Um, he would do whatever he wanted,you know, you know, get over.
You're a bitch, I'mRick James or whatever.
So he had a history of this.
I think that it was just, this moment was,you know, Uh, this, somebody came forward
and finally said, you know enough with it.
I froze.
So let's go.
What do
Brittney Sherman (31:38):
you think this is before we go deeper?
So you think that essentially thiswas, this was a pattern he had done
this many times before, but he gotcaught because his level of fame.
Dwindling and maybe this person feltmore comfortable coming forward, or
maybe this person was now believedbecause he wasn't as famous and
(32:00):
untouchable as he was previously,
Sonia Meza-Leon (32:02):
this would have been covered up.
Okay.
So here's the, the way this wentdown was that James, Rick James and
his girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi were.
They met up with this girl,this 24 year old woman.
Um, apparently she was unemployed.
They met her at a party and they'relike, Hey, you know, come and stay
with us at the big Hollywood Hillshouse, you know, with the Rick James.
(32:23):
Awesome.
So, you know, again, you know, luring her.
He threatened her with a gun.
He told her that he would killher if she tried to leave.
Uh, he and the Tonya Hejazi tiedher up and severely burner, um, w 20
times or so with a hot crack pipe.
(32:43):
And then he, like you said, heforced the victim to essentially, you
know, give oral whatever to Hijazi.
Um, while he watched again, this wouldbe typical behavior for Rick James.
This is something that would happenprobably on tour, like five times a week.
Um, and then they smoke crack and thenthey forced the victim to as well.
(33:05):
And then the girl just wandersout of the house somehow makes
her way to, um, Hospital.
And then the hospital called the police.
So she didn't call thepolice, the hospital.
Right.
Makes sense.
Yep.
Okay.
So if the hospital wouldn't have calledthe police, there's, there's, it's
unlikely that Rick James would have everhad any issues with this, but I think
(33:27):
for something now, what, what I thinkhappened again, you know, I think this
was typical behavior for Rick James.
This is typical for someone whohas this kind of power, is that
they're going to tell people todo whatever they want them to do.
And in that.
Those people feel overpowered.
And because they're trying to pleasethis famous person or whatever,
they'll do whatever they want.
We've seen this time and time again witha variety of different people in power.
(33:52):
Um, you know, I would say MichaelJackson would probably fall into this
category where they were untouchableand they had enough money to quiet
people and buy people off and, youknow, keep people from coming forward
because they would, those peoplewould be not punished, but they would
lose their career or they would lose.
They would fall out of favor.
People.
So I do think it was a similar situation.
(34:13):
I think Rick James had, I mean, whenyou're doing crack, I guess, you
know, I mean, I don't know, you'renot, probably not in your right mind
anyway, but to be a person who wasdoing that kind of drug or those kinds
of drugs, many drugs, and to have thisall powerful feeling, you know, you're
untouchable, you can do whatever you want.
I mean, you are the king of the world.
And I think that cocaine justmakes that feeling much more,
(34:36):
um, You know, probably prominent.
So again, you know, you're untouchable.
I.
I, I, I think this wasprobably common for James.
I think that he just had anunwilling participant or he had
a willing participant who went tothe hospital and the hospital, you
know, made a big deal out of it.
But, and Rick Jameswas a powerful anymore.
Powerful enough to, to sort of get,get away from this kind of thing.
(34:57):
I bet in back in the day, when he waspowerful, I guarantee his record label
or any of his powerful friends would haveprobably cut, had this resolved quickly.
He would have just got dismissed andnobody would've said anything about it.
It would have been a misunder.
And
Brittney Sherman (35:11):
that's very possible.
And at this point he probably,well, he was still famous in 1991.
He was certainly not at the peak ofhis fame and maybe he didn't have the
proper resources to buy this person off.
Uh, and he, uh, he was no longer.
(35:33):
Rick James, the superstar who hadall these resources available to him.
Uh, and I think that actually, ifyou go back in again, as crazy as
it sounds, watch that Chappelle showepisode, it'll speak to the people
that he upset over his life that made.
At one time would have stoodup for him and helped him hide
(35:54):
it and cover these things up nolonger wanted to do that for him.
And he didn't have that.
Sonia Meza-Leon (36:00):
Well, he couldn't, you know, they couldn't,
they couldn't put themselves atrisk with his behavior anymore.
And I think that's ultimately what it was.
I think that, um, you know,Again, I would say, take a look
at tales from the tour bus.
And I say that in a, I mean, I watchedthat, that I knew it was a comedy.
I love Mike judge, but I felt really,I thought that the guys in the,
(36:23):
from the band who were interviewed,I mean, there were funny as hell.
These guys, these were old,like salty, you know, like
R and B guys like funk guys.
I mean, they got it.
You know, but they, theyjust really struggled with
it because he was their guy.
Right.
He was the lead singer of their band.
He was there, their, youknow, powerful leader and.
(36:45):
Ultimately, you know, he fell apart andhe didn't try to take them with him, but
they could never get back together and theband can never be successful without him.
So it just led to failure.
It was really a bummer, but they talkedabout him thoughtfully and they talked
about him as, um, in a way that, you know,suggested that he had some demons that
(37:06):
he was dealing with for his entire life.
And he didn't know any other wayto sort of, you know, sort of.
Execute, um, on, you know, hisbehavior, but I'm not as dismissive
because I don't, I don't look,I don't care how famous you are.
I don't think you shouldbe allowed to rate people.
And I don't think there's, there'sno, you know, Uh, way that you can
(37:28):
tell me that there's any difference.
It's like, you know, I mean, justbecause you're a famous no, no, it's a
suggestion or, oh, it was consensual.
Not really.
No.
I
Brittney Sherman (37:37):
mean, it's not even worth entertaining that idea
because it's so despicable to thinkthat someone might think that it's
Sonia Meza-Leon (37:41):
okay.
Well, it happens all the time.
I know.
Watch like any big rock and roll band.
These people, that'show they, they operate.
You know, I mean, I'm not going to saythat every musician out there in the world
is a rapist, but we know, I mean, if youknow anybody who's ever been a part of
those groups, um, and I knew know someof those people, you know, they, they
(38:05):
take advantage of situations and peoplebecause they have the power to do so.
And then they get used tothat kind of thing and, um,
it's becomes normal for them.
And it also.
I have to say it desensitizesthem to what's normal and it
makes them want more of it.
Like they can't be satisfiedwith normal anymore.
They have to have this over the topbehavior because they're so bored,
(38:29):
honestly, with normal behavior.
I don't think Rick James couldhave had a normal relationship
to be quite honest with you.
I think you needed this kind of,of, um, sort of that excitement.
Brittney Sherman (38:39):
He found it exciting despicable, disgusting, awful.
And.
I, I agree.
And, you know,
Sonia Meza-Leon (38:47):
he says
Brittney Sherman (38:49):
in that Chappelle show episode, you says cocaine is a
powerful drug, but I think to yourpoint, fame is a powerful drug.
Well, it's what drove him.
And that's what drives so manypeople like you're referring
Sonia Meza-Leon (39:01):
to it.
Definitely.
And I think.
It's Chris rock said at one time.
And I thought it was really interesting.
Um, you know, but he talks about, um,infidelity in one of his like standup
shows and he says, you know, whenyou're famous, you know, you are, you
are only as faithful as your options.
And if you've got all the options in theworld, You're going to take advantage
(39:22):
of those, you know, there's nobody,you know, he makes fun of it, but he's
like, there's no like, you know, nerdywhite dude in the corner without the
option saying, you know, he's gonnatake advantage of women because he
just doesn't have the option to do so.
But when you have the world onyou're on a platter and there are
no repercussions for your actions.
Awfully hard to manage yourself if youdon't have that moral construct from
(39:44):
a young child, honestly, I mean, andthat's for a lot of reasons, economic
rubric James, um, his mom sort ofgave him that modeling and in it's a
bad situation to be in, but I don'tthink that he was ever in a situation
to ever understand that it could be.
Going back to Rick James let's rememberthat this was a person who was addicted
to drugs for absolutely many, many,many years early on in his life.
(40:07):
So pretty much his entire life.
So I think we're expecting a lot of aperson who has that kind of addiction
to be able to correct themselves.
Just it's really not possible.
I mean, they have a hard enoughtime just managing their daily.
You know, feelings and their dailylife, and those triggers with positive
triggers or negative triggers,triggers are triggers, and they will
(40:28):
send these people into a spiral.
So it's, um, I'm not surprising thatRick James got there considering the path
that he took, but it's disappointing.
And it bums me out because I didappreciate his music and I did really
feel like that he was an innovator.
Um, but I, I wished that he could havebeen able to get a handle on himself and
use that for something more positive.
(40:50):
Um, instead of, you know, sort ofgoing down this road and ultimately
he passed away of a heart attack.
I mean, he'd very sad.
Brittney Sherman (40:57):
Yeah.
So, um, so if we can.
Step backwards.
Get into, uh, we, we talked about thecrime, the three-day imprisonment.
He was arrested along withhis girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi.
Uh, they were released on a half, amillion dollars bond pending trial,
and while they were free on bond.
(41:20):
They did this again to a music executivein 1993, while they were awaiting trial,
uh, and held her for 20 hours this time.
But pretty much it was the sameset of circumstances to kind of
what you were talking about beforethis wasn't a one-time thing.
(41:40):
This was a pattern.
This was regular.
How he operated and
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:47):
it will be normal.
This is what this, this was atotally normal thing for him to do.
Brittney Sherman (41:54):
And he was rearrested on this charge thankfully and ultimately
found guilty on both charges and he facedlife in prison for false and prison.
But somehow I don't understand this.
He was found not guilty of that charge,but was guilty of other charges.
(42:17):
Uh, so he served two years in prison andwhile he was in prison, the second woman
who, uh, the music executive, Mary saga,She received a $2 million civil suit
payout from Rick James estate and thenan additional $750,000 from a private
(42:38):
security firm and the hotel where she was
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:41):
held back.
They must have not had enoughto prove that he held her.
Hm.
Interestingly
Brittney Sherman (42:48):
against her whale or something.
Right,
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:50):
exactly.
Yeah.
It gets tough because you've got again,
Brittney Sherman (42:53):
hang on a second.
Hang on a second.
Let me rephrase.
I, I guess I got that backwards.
He was, he was found guiltyof false imprisonment.
He was found not guilty oftorture and torture was the charge
that could have put him away.
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:04):
Interesting.
Yeah.
I, um, wow.
Well, he got out and he did, hedid a couple more things when
he got out and the ultimate.
Passed away, right?
Yeah.
Brittney Sherman (43:14):
He, uh, in all, honestly, what is what I
found really kind of interesting.
Um, you know, he had these charges,he did some time in prison.
I don't think it was enough,but he tried to make a comeback.
He was featured on Chappelle show.
(43:37):
For an entire generation.
That's how people know of Rick James.
And he was planning a comeback tour.
Very similar to Michael Jackson wasplanning his comeback to, or when he died.
And in, uh, as you said, he, Rick Jamesultimately died of a heart attack in 2004.
(43:59):
Therefore his reallylast stint of fame was.
Chappelle's show and he was neverable to regain the level of prominence
or reputation of, uh, in musicthat he, I think always strive
to achieve, but he never got thelevel of respect that he felt he
Sonia Meza-Leon (44:24):
deserved.
Yeah.
I, uh, Hmm.
That's sad.
Alrighty.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
I
Brittney Sherman (44:34):
dunno, I guess I don't, because I just feel that he's, you
know, he, uh, I don't feel sad for him.
I don't think he was.
I think he was a very talented guy.
I think that he was a great artist heworked with, but you know, a lot of the
people you talked about, what are theones I found most fascinating was Neil
young, uh, and try to collaborate withCrosby stills, young and Nash, but that
(44:58):
ended up not happening, but he never, he.
Want it, that level of Michael Jacksonand prince fame, but he never got.
Sonia Meza-Leon (45:08):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, again, I thinkhis actions sort of didn't,
you know, sort of go there.
I, I, I don't know.
I don't know if I would agree with himthat he deserved that kind of fame.
Brittney Sherman (45:21):
I don't think it, I don't agree that he did.
I didn't think he was nearly as
Sonia Meza-Leon (45:24):
talented as they were.
Yeah.
Which is sad.
And again, you know, back to a drugaddiction, maybe he wasn't because he
just couldn't overcome that addiction.
So we will never know, but,uh, An interesting case to say
the least, uh, Scarlett autos.
I know that, um, a lot ofpeople sort of forget sometimes
about the Rick James crimes.
(45:44):
And I'm glad we could talk aboutthem, Brittany, but the other parts
of it, where we talk about princeand, and the history, you know, I
would highly suggest going back andlook at the, that the, the Chappelle
show and the tales from the tour bus.
Again, you know, Wikipediaactually has some really good
information about Rick James thatI thought was interesting as well.
And then there's a ton of stuff onYouTube where you can watch interviews
(46:06):
with Rick James, talk about MTV.
So, um, I would strongly suggestit, but, you know, again, I, I'm
sad to see the downfall of peoplewho have drug problems and, um, you
know, it's a good example of how it'sjust almost impossible to overcome.
It's terrible.
Brittney Sherman (46:19):
I was really surprised when I started researching this because
you suggested this topic, uh, interviewed.
I think I mentioned at the start ofour episode here, that I didn't realize
all of the things that he was into.
And unfortunately, I think weprobably only scratched the
surface of all the things that hedid that just weren't reported.
Uh, in two other quick things to wrapthis up in 1998, he was accused of.
(46:43):
Third rape, but those charges were laterdropped after he was out of prison.
And earlier this year in Februaryof 2020, he's a state was sued by a
woman who suggested that he raped her.
As you mentioned earlier in Buffalo, whenI think she was 15 years old in 1978.
(47:03):
So.
Unfortunately, these, uh, thesecharges, they keep popping up even
over 15 years after his death.
And we're learning moreabout the guy and, uh, hu.
My opinion really only had two hitsongs, but try to leave a legacy and
his legacy is turning out to be morecriminal and sorted rather than musical.
(47:27):
Okay.
We're gonna wrap this episode up.
Um, Everyone out there, stay healthy.
Keep social distancing.
I know it's a tough time right now.
I know it's hard to stay home whenthe weather's starting to get nice.
Uh, but we're tryingto protect each other.
Stay healthy.
Thank you to all of our first responders.
(47:51):
Thanks to all of the,uh, healthcare workers.
Sonia, anything else?
Sonia Meza-Leon (47:57):
Nope.
Looking forward to, uh, therelease in this episode.
So stay tuned.
All right.
Brittney Sherman (48:04):
Um, well, shout out to everyone in the pod
all the time podcast network.
We're glad to be part of you guys.
We are the ladies of Scarlet.
Hey, Scarlett is we are back to talk about
our next true crime episode.
And I am so excited about thisepisode because this is about one
of my favorite, um, musicians.
And.
Uh, of all time.
And I say that because I absolutelythink that his music is fantastic.
(01:03):
I, um, he's, you know, he has beena part of some very important,
um, you know, music in the past.
And he was really, in my opinion,what I, my note about this.
Um, is that he was thefunk, a tear innovator.
And I know that there are otherpeople who could probably get that as,
um, sort of recognition as well sayBootsy Collins, or are maybe prints.
(01:27):
But I think that Rick Jameswas the forerunner in the.
innovation department.
Um, you know, he had some incrediblypopular music in the past, so, but, uh,
Brittney, as we will talk about, he alsohad some, uh, some issues we will say.
And, um, he has some, um, youknow, true crime in his past.
(01:48):
He was convicted, uh, a couple of timesof some serious crimes, in my opinion.
I don't want us to, uh, glossover nor, um, sort of dismiss.
So we're going to chat a little bitabout what the, about those crimes,
but first we're going to talk a littlebit about Rick James and his history,
because I think the beginning of hislife was really interesting and he
(02:08):
knew a lot of interesting people.
So, you know, without further ado, RickJames I E James Ambrose Johnson Jr.
Was born February 1st, 1948,better known by his stage name.
Rick James pretty.
(02:28):
How do you know, how do you James?
Cause I, well, I lived throughthe time when he was, his
music was really important.
So you probably heard it after.
Brittney Sherman (02:37):
Well, yes.
So, uh, I know Rick James based off of.
Really one song.
Sonia Meza-Leon (02:48):
Oh my gosh.
Well, there's another song that youwill probably remember that he did.
And that was given to me, baby, whichis another one to my favorite songs.
I know, I
Brittney Sherman (03:00):
do know that one too, but I know him for.
Uh, the four, the first one.
Yeah, I know for a super freak.
Uh, and then I also know, andwe'll talk about this later.
We also know, or I also knowhim from Chappelle show and it's
funny because I didn't even watchChappelle show, but it was so iconic
(03:21):
when he was featured on there.
And Dave Chappelle's apparentlyspot on characterization of him
and his famous catch for AEs.
I'm
Sonia Meza-Leon (03:32):
Rick James bitch, which, uh, I think it's consistent
with him throughout his life.
He, um, you know, is no longerliving, but he, as I said, he was
born in 1948 in Buffalo, New York.
And he began his musicalcareer pretty early.
Um, in his teenage years, hereally felt like that he was,
um, you know, he had a gift.
(03:53):
He, and he did have a gift.
Brittney Sherman (03:54):
That's true.
But before he started and before he gotinto music, He's ventures into criminal
life started as early as age nine.
Sonia Meza-Leon (04:04):
Yes.
And a lot of that was becausehis mother was a numbers runner
actually for the mob in New York.
So he witnessed a lot of different things.
Um, and you know, this was, I mean,Hey, I, I get to give it to her.
You know, she's raising kids, she'sgoing to do whatever she needs to do.
But for him, this, this model,his, his life a bit, and
(04:24):
certainly set him on a path.
Now, I think he spent a lot of his time.
You know, a lot of his life, youknow, not committing criminal acts.
Certainly he did some importantthings, but, you know, I think
that he may have made some choicesthroughout his life that, um, were
affected by that early modeling.
Not to, not to be all properabout it, but, you know, he saw
some things happening and he waslike, ah, you know, his, his moral
(04:46):
character may have been in question.
Let's just say, well,
Brittney Sherman (04:49):
sure.
But I have to say, I wassurprised how much he was.
Uh, how, how many criminalacts he really was involved in?
I didn't know much about them.
I knew a lot about the drugs, but I knowabout the criminal acts, uh, because yeah,
so not only was his mother involved inrunning the numbers, uh, which if you're
(05:10):
not familiar with that, look it up.
It's kind of like atype of illegal lottery.
It's really kind offascinating to read about.
Uh, but he was part of that.
They're out.
And he was only nineyears old at the time.
So that's very early, uh, age.
Of course, can't say that hereally had any control over that.
His mom was doing that as opposed toworking a and working another job, doing
(05:34):
what she could to make ends meet becausehis father was no longer in the picture.
Uh, his father left.
Sonia Meza-Leon (05:40):
Uh, but
Brittney Sherman (05:42):
with, with his mother, he, she, she.
Well, she was trying to dothe best that she could.
She also sent him to a private Catholicschool and he attended elementary school
at a private school and was expecting.
Several times.
I don't know how you get expelled severaltimes from one school, because I've always
thought once you get expelled, it meansyou're you're out out, but he was expelled
(06:06):
at least three times from the sameCatholic school for causing trouble, uh,
not criminal per se, but he showed earlysigns of not being the most stand up.
And, uh, the best kidthat may preview what.
(06:26):
Later do, uh, an
Sonia Meza-Leon (06:27):
adulthood.
So as we said, you know, he was in variousbands, you know, he hung out early on,
I think with Neil young and they werein a band together for quite a while.
He actually went to Canada in 1964, um,because he did not want to be drafted.
And unfortunately, um, he formed,well, not unfortunately, but he, he
(06:48):
formed a band in Canada apparently.
Um, the minor burrs, which I think is areally interesting name, but that was so.
Brittney Sherman (06:56):
He keep in mind though.
He went to Canada because he actuallyenlisted when he was 16 years old
in the United States military.
And he enlisted as a reservist and he.
Fled to Canada when the UnitedStates, uh, went to Vietnam and the
Vietnam war broke out and he D hedidn't want to be sent into war.
(07:19):
So he officially went AWOL byfleeting to Canada, which is of
course a felony in military court.
And so he was a fugitive on therun when he started his musical.
Sonia Meza-Leon (07:32):
Ah, okay.
Got it.
So, yeah.
Was he avoiding?
Oh, so he was avoiding being sent, buthe was already, he wouldn't be dressed.
Oh, he was a reservist.
So he could be drafted intothe full-time military.
Exactly.
Okay.
Brittney Sherman (07:46):
Yeah.
So he essentially signed up to be areservist, so that way he wouldn't be
drafted ultimately, but once the Vietnamwar picked up, he could be moved up from
being a reservist to full-time like.
Sonia Meza-Leon (08:01):
Got it.
So again, as we said, he formed the band,the Mynah birds, and they got a recording
deal with Motown records in 1966.
Um, that means that he was 22 years old.
And as you said, Brittany, his careerhad to be halted a bit because he had
to go deal with his one-year prison termthat he received for the draft charges.
(08:24):
So.
After he was released, he left New Yorkand then he moved to California where
he, he really ultimately started, uh, arock and a funk group, uh, or multiple
groups in the sixties and seventies.
So he, this was where he reallyformed, you know, what we know to
be Rick James before he really was.
And he started the band stone city band.
(08:47):
Before he did that.
He was really a rock and roll guy.
He actually wasn't like a funk guy.
He wasn't an R and B guy.
He was really, you know,truly rock and roll.
So when he started the stone city band,they, you know, I think they really
found their stride and, and they,the release the album come and get.
That had, um, that was in 1978 andhad hits on it like you and I and Mary
(09:11):
Jane and Mary Jane of course, was aboutmarijuana and anybody who says that
they didn't realize that that songwasn't about marijuana is bananas.
I think some of the records labels,well, the record labels are like,
oh, well we didn't even know.
We thought he was talking about a lady.
I'm like, no, come on.
Yes.
Because Rick James was really, really,um, Outward about his marijuana use.
(09:36):
He has giant, like we knowjoints on the stage next to him.
There were times where he wasthreatened to be, um, you know,
essentially arrested because he hadpot on stage and wouldn't stop smoking.
And, you know, he wasencouraged as council
Brittney Sherman (09:51):
goers to
Sonia Meza-Leon (09:51):
join him.
Yeah.
And I was just watching Brittany, the, uh,I got my information from a variety of.
And some of which I think that we'remeant to be comedic, but I still, there
were real interviews with Rick James andwhether he was kidding or not, I think
it gave some insight into his personal.
This one I was just watchingwas about, uh, was the Charlie
(10:13):
Murphy, Dave Chappelle thing.
Um, it was, you know, I mean, reallyfunny, but so, you know, some of these
things that seem too weird to be true,I think were actually true because
when you're working at that level, Imean, he was friends with Eddie Murphy.
He was friends with Stevie wonder.
I think Stevie wonder was the one whotold him to call himself Rick James.
And, um, you know, he was cause I thinkhe was going by Ricky before that.
(10:34):
Something and, and yeah, and Ithink Stevie wonder was right.
You know, he, Rick James spent a lotof time with a lot of important people.
He, um, you know, he, he, I mean,he was a very, very famous man.
And if you watch any of theinterviews with him, he knew it.
I mean, you know, he really expectedeverybody to know who he was.
(10:55):
He had a little.
Stage presence, we'll call it.
And, um, you know, he hungwith some very famous people.
He dated Linda Blair for acouple of years, which I think
is a really interesting, weird,I thought that tote, I thought
Brittney Sherman (11:07):
that too, and yeah.
She actually got pregnant by his child.
Sonia Meza-Leon (11:12):
Yeah.
Which he was really sad aboutbecause she did not have that child.
And so he was really sad thathe didn't know at the time.
Um, but they were togetherfor a year or two.
So that's a stage of time.
It wasn't in passing.
No, but you know, this was him.
I mean, if you w another source thatI took a lot of information from, and
I thought was really insightful and.
(11:34):
Thoughtful actually wastales from the tour bus.
The Mike judge show where he takes audio,um, and some live action interviews and
he animated, he puts it to animation andit is so good because it is it's good.
It's so good.
I mean, There are a lot of episodes aboutcountry singers and things like that.
But there's the second season iswhere he gets into more R and B
(11:58):
and funk and broadens it a bit.
And he does a two-parter episode aboutRick James and a large part of the second.
You know, the second partis about Rick James and his.
Contentious relationship with prince.
So I want to talk about that a bitbecause I, I know you have prints.
So I know, I know there was a timeremember where, you know, Rick James was
(12:19):
on the top of the world and he, before,
Brittney Sherman (12:23):
before we get into prince, I think, I think we're jumping
over a few things that, um, are maybeindicative of his, his criminal past.
Sonia Meza-Leon (12:36):
Oh, sure.
Well, I mean, through this entiresituation, through this, his entire
life, we know that he did a lot of drugs.
So if that's what you're referring to,
Brittney Sherman (12:46):
but that's not what I'm referring to.
Sonia Meza-Leon (12:49):
I'm referring to.
I think that consistentlywe can all agree.
And Rick James will be thefirst to tell us that he did
a lot of drugs throughout his.
Um, cocaine is a powerfuldrug and marijuana is awesome.
And I wouldn't be surprisedif he smoked pot a lot just to
kind of regulate himself, buthe did a lot of, lot of drugs.
He was on drugs.
Brittney Sherman (13:07):
Drugs is like, in my opinion, so minor in comparison,
uh, because yeah, he, uh, I mean,just to just touch on it at one point,
he said he was, he spent like $7,000a week for five years on cocaine.
And, uh, his tour bus was like acloud of marijuana smoke all the time.
(13:28):
Uh, but regardless of that, part ofit, he, uh, You mentioned, which is
so totally true, how he is such a,you know, he, he knew his fame, he
thought a lot of himself, he kind of,he felt like he was on top of the world.
And to a certain extent, he reallywas like, he was the, he was the
king of funk at, you know, in thelate seventies, early eighties.
(13:50):
Yes.
He was the pioneer for all of this.
And he had some really powerfuland influential friends.
But to your point previouslyabout Stevie, wonder how he.
Yeah.
He's the one that essentially toldhim to call himself Rick James.
He went through a few different namesbefore he settled on Rick James, because
he first was convicted of being a draftDodger for going AWOL in the military.
(14:17):
And he spent a year in military prison.
Then he was arrested again for asecond military charge, but was
able to get, uh, essentially.
Get off on that chargebecause he knew someone in it.
And at the time before he even movedto Los Angeles, he was trying to
go to Motown and Motown was veryinterested in him, but because of his
(14:41):
past with the military and the stuffthat he got into as a kid, Montan
didn't want anything to do with him.
So he actually changed hisname two or three times before
he settled on Rick James.
So even though he was very confident andpowerful and he knew he was so famous.
There was, I still think this otherside to him that he was, he was
(15:02):
constantly running from his past because.
Of all the things that he left
Sonia Meza-Leon (15:07):
in his wake.
Well sort of, I mean, I thinkthat there's a point where it
didn't matter what happened in hispast because he was Rick James.
I mean, once you got tothat point, definitely.
I mean, and that it got tothat point rather quickly.
I mean, Rick James was pretty much.
Pretty quick in his life.
You know, he, he was, um, he achievedfame at a young age, you know, he,
again, he was a musician, he wasin bands when he was a teenager.
(15:31):
So he knew this area very well.
He signed with Motownand at the age of 22.
So yeah, that's super young.
Yeah.
He was already there.
Like he went from zero to 60 and I,and that is a tough one for someone
who's doing drugs because it'sawfully hard for you to regulate when.
Events like significant eventshappening in your life, but even if
(15:52):
you're the vents in your life or,you know, good, positive or negative
traumatic events are really, um, hardfor people who have drug addictions,
um, they're triggers, you know, soeven the best situations can trigger a
drug addict into, you know, a spiral.
But, um, yeah, he.
He definitely realized.
(16:13):
And he definitely understood that he hadto make some changes and to get around
things, to get where he wanted to go.
But he always was, you know, I thinkthat he was dead set, that he was
going to be famous and successful inhis life, no matter what he had to
Brittney Sherman (16:24):
do.
I think that's probably true.
And, uh, one of the things that,uh, I don't know if you plan on
coming back to it or not, but thatyou mentioned to me and I, I looked
up a little bit, was his looseconnection with the Manson family also.
Sonia Meza-Leon (16:40):
Well, it wasn't the Manson family.
He had a connection with, it wasthe, uh, Sharon Tate family because
he reached, James was friendswith Jay Sebring and Rick James
was supposed to be at the house.
He was supposed to be at theSharon Tate home with JC bring
the night of the Manson murders.
But, uh, apparently he got scared.
Um, shockingly, he did some drugsand whatever happened and he
(17:03):
didn't, he was too messed up to go.
Yeah.
Which it sounds like that that happenedon, um, pretty frequently, you know,
but again, you've got these reallypowerful people, as we know, in
Hollywood and in music and whatever,and they just there's no, um, They're
not held to the same standard that therest of us are because of this one.
I've been a regular person.
They would have kicked him to the curb.
Um, you know, and his friends,I think kept him safe too.
(17:25):
He was very good friendswith Eddie Murphy.
He, again, smokey Robinson.
He, uh, he was the one.
So I want to go back because I wantto talk a little bit about the Rick
James and sort of his progression.
And I think that's where we go back andtalk about prince, because there was a
time where Rick James was on tour, verypopular and prince was just coming out.
(17:50):
And so this would have been around the,this would have been in the seventies and.
You know, Rick James really sawhimself as, as an iconic figure and
an actual, he really saw himself asan important African-American figure.
And he really thought it wasimportant that he get, you know,
sort of the credit for that.
He, he had somehow or another hadseen, um, prince and he asked prince
(18:15):
and he asked another, I think,another band to come on tour with him.
And I think maybe it was, uh, the otherband that was on tour with, I forget
who it was, but it was somebody elsethat he had to come on tour with him.
Um, shoot.
Not Sheely.
We'll figure that one outlater, Rick James asked prince
to go on tour with them.
Um, you know, all that's fantastic forprince because he gets all this exposure
(18:40):
and, um, he, you know, of course killsit because he's prince now, Rick James
starts getting, uh, jealous of princeand starts and re you gotta remember,
let's step back for a second here.
Um, the Rick James band, thestone city band, this was a band.
Five or six, I don't recall.
Six foot tall or over blackmen with giant braids.
(19:05):
And he asked his bandto wear those braids.
And they finally agreed becausehe said that he wanted them
all to look like warriors.
You know, I think that it's importantto understand that he realized pretty
early on that his performance and theway he looked and the way he conveyed
himself was important for him as, as anAfrican-American African-American men.
(19:26):
And it was a powerful statementthat he was trying to make.
He wanted some recognition, youknow, he wanted to be respected and I
think he was respected for his music.
Certainly he did some,some really great things.
So again, prince goes on tour with him.
Then prince and Rick James startgetting into this competition.
You know, they, again, RickJames feels threatened by this.
(19:49):
So prince prince in myopinion is fantastic.
And I, and I'm sorry, Rick James, butI feel like prince is far more, you
know, uh, you know, talented, let's justsay his body of work as much better.
And it's probably because he wasnot as focused on these other
distractions of Rick James.
Right.
So prince started a side band withhis friend Morris day called the time.
(20:13):
And then so did Rick James, Rick starteda side band to compete with them, but
his side band was called like the dorags or something, which is that's
exactly what it was name horrible.
And then prince started a girl'sband, which was vanity six.
So in turn, Rick James startsa girl's band called the Mary
Jane girls and the Mary Jane.
(20:34):
They were successful.
Um, that was Joanne.
I don't recall her lastname, but I thought I really
liked the Mary Jane girls.
I liked a couple of their songs.
I thought they were kind of awesome.
That was very popular, like theMiami club scene and like the early
nineties, um, you know, the MaryJane girls and the Tina Marie was
also a big supporter of Rick James.
And he wrote songs where hewrote multiple songs for her.
(20:56):
He wrote a couple of songs for thetemptations and then also smokey room.
So, you know, he, he could do goodthings when he put his mind to it.
The part that I thought was reallyinteresting was, and you know, for a
lot of reasons was his relationship withEddie Murphy, because as you can, if I
would highly suggest watching the CharlieMurphy tales from the, you know, whatever.
Brittney Sherman (21:20):
Each or Hollywood story on Chappelle's show.
Sonia Meza-Leon (21:23):
It's fantastic.
Good.
Because I feel like that that's the rea realistic view of what Eddie Murphy's
relationship with, with Rick James was,you know, and Rick James went so far
as to write and produce that God awfulsong that Eddie Murphy, um, actually
performed party all the time, whichwe, if you remember this song, if you
(21:44):
don't remember the song, look it up.
It's amazing.
Rick James is in the video.
It is.
I watched
Brittney Sherman (21:48):
the video last night.
Sonia Meza-Leon (21:49):
God.
Awful.
Like I so bad.
And my God, the song has got awful.
I don't care about the video, butno, I know the songs terrible.
Eddie Murphy.
I love Eddie Murphy.
I think he's incredibly funny, butman, he needs to not, not foray
into a musical, whatever it's
Brittney Sherman (22:07):
party all the time was Rick James is attempt
to have a party song in recent.
So prince is party like it's 1999.
Sonia Meza-Leon (22:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Everything that, that, you know,Rick James was doing after he
met prince was in response to.
And it's success.
The other thing that you have toremember about prince and also Michael
Jackson and Rick James was the Vic.
James was really offended this rightaround the time where at T V came out
and, um, you know, they re MTV, wouldn'tplay Rick James, his videos and Ray MTV
(22:40):
will say, well, they were too vulgar.
They were offensive.
And some might say that they were,but they would play prince and
they would play Michael Jackson.
Now it's hard not to play princeand Michael Jackson because
they're so freaking popular.
But the other thing is that princehad a movie prince had purple rain.
People wanted to see prince, andI love that movie and I didn't
find that movie offensive at all.
I mean, I, I, I'm notsaying prince is a good day.
(23:03):
You know, and under the, under the cherrymoon was another booth, but I don't care
because I really like watching prince.
So there was something about hispersonality and I always felt that
there was an innocence to princeand I always thought there was,
um, I don't ever feel like that.
He was a person who, in my opinion,sort of promoted violence and.
Honestly, I'd love that he was justkind of like this kind of funk, funky,
(23:25):
like, you know, romantic hippie guy, youknow, I mean, he was, um, I don't know.
Anyway, I just, I I'mendeared to him for sure.
Um, but it very interesting, youknow, the Rick James was very pissed.
He was pissed.
Prince and Michael Jackson, he'slike, look, you know, there's,
you guys shouldn't be on MTV.
You know, you should be supportingyour fellow black man and boy Connie,
(23:46):
because they won't play my videos.
And, um, apparently prince and MichaelJackson did not agree with that.
You know, there's probably sometruth across the board to all the
different, different challenges.
Let's just say, because principalsin a knee or a prince, uh, Rick
James was an easy, easy guy toget along with and he was very,
you know, open and he didn't say.
(24:08):
You know, he wasn't slick,you know, when he talked, I
mean, he would call on anybody.
He just, I think it was a little differentthan what than to be really wanted to
be promoting, you know, from that side.
So it was, it was a bummer, but, uh,there's some good interviews, even in that
tales, from the tour bus, from the Mikejudge thing, there's some cool interviews
where Rick James talks about that withthe issues with MTV, it's worth a watch.
(24:29):
You know, but the prince thingand the Rick James, obviously
prince went on to do great things.
And Rick James sort of spiraledand sort of went downhill.
Um, you know, from there.
Brittney Sherman (24:40):
Would I, what I took from it in tales from the tour bus they
show, which I believe is probably totallyaccurate when prince was opening for
Rick James, Rick James would stand onthe side of the stage and watch prince.
And then when Rick James wasperforming, prince was standing on
the opposite side of the stage andwatch Rick James and they pushed each
other and they motivated each other.
(25:02):
And what I took from thatis prince took that as.
He's pushing me to anotherlevel to succeed and I'm going
to step up to that level.
But I took that Rick James lookedat prince as this guy is encroaching
in on my fame and he's a threat.
And instead of using it to motivatehimself, he actually started
down more of a downward slope.
Sonia Meza-Leon (25:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, he was the incumbent,so that's principle, you know,
principles the up and coming there.
So that's, that's the natural progression.
I think, um, it was hard for Rick James.
You know, he fell out of favor.
He upset a lot of people.
Again, MTV did not, you know,sort of promote his videos.
And, um, he continuedto do a lot of drugs.
(25:43):
Um, his it's his mainstream successultimately peaked in around 1985.
He released an album called glowand then apparently he was on a
team, which I was not aware of.
Uh, and I was on the show 18.
I do know the showy team when I'mnot interested in watching any
of, I don't think I ever watched.
Yeah.
I didn't know he was on that show.
That's interesting.
(26:04):
Yeah, it sounds like he made an appearanceand I don't know why that would be like
a stellar moment in his career, butmaybe it was the beginning of the end.
I don't know.
Um, and then rememberhere's what's important.
Remember about RickJames, a lot of people.
First off Rick James, number one, anyGrammys for any, any songs that he
produced, um, and release on his own, hedid however, win a Grammy with MC hammer
(26:27):
when MC hammer sampled super freak.
So probably, yeah.
That could have ever happened to Rick.
James was an MC hammer, did that.
It was really important.
And I also thought it was reallyimportant that MC hammer give
Rick James credit for that.
Because so many times these dayspeople are sampling and stealing and
they just, um, nothing ever happens.
And he'd go to court forever.
I mean, look whathappened with vanilla ice?
(26:48):
You know, these, these, these frickingtrials play out forever and they
go on and on and everybody loses.
So I thought that was really great.
Um, you know, The MC hammer wasable to allow that to happen.
And then in the 1990s, um, it soundslike this is when Rick James his
career really went off the rails.
(27:09):
He, the beginning of the end, inmy opinion, he had legal issues.
Uh, apparently he was convictedof two separate instances.
So he was convicted of for twoseparate instances of kidnapping
and torturing two separate.
While under the influence ofcrack cocaine and he actually
(27:29):
served three years, um, for that.
Now let's talk a little bit about thatbecause yes, I, I am going to, I, I tried
to find information about this case andwhat I found with Brittany, I told you
was that it seems like that th these,these crimes that he committed were sort
of the side note to, you know, Even thisarticle that I read, which I'm going
(27:52):
to refer to, it was written in, um, itwas published in the Los Angeles times.
So it was written by AaronCurtis and Jack Cheevers.
And it was from August 3rd, 1991.
And the headline reads singer RickJames' girlfriend arrested on charges
of torturing woman crime, the couple reallegedly burn the victim with a crack
cocaine pipe and sexually abused her.
(28:14):
So, okay.
That's an interesting headline.
Um, the.
What's really, I don't think that it'sfair to just sort of glaze over that.
I think it's really, um, in myopinion, a bit offensive, and it
sounds like that this was may havebeen typical behavior for Rick James.
Um, but it was sort of looked overand I'm not going to equate Rick James
(28:36):
to, um, R Kelly per se, because Ithink that was a lot more criminal.
What R Kelly used to do.
But I think that there were things thatprobably happened in Rick James life that.
Others would think back on and think thatthey probably should have done something
or what he was doing was illegal.
I think that he had another womancome forward that said that he
raped her when she was in a boardingschool or in a school in Buffalo yet.
(29:00):
And we'll get to that in a little bit.
Yeah.
And that happened earlyon in the seventies.
So the crime that Rick James wasconvicted of with his girlfriend,
apparently she was 23 or 24.
She was 21 at the time when he wonand they were at his house in the
Hollywood Hills and essentially hewas arrested for imprisoning and
(29:24):
torturing this 24 year old woman witha hot cocaine pipe over three days.
Uh, the actual crimes that he wasconvicted of were, uh, Let's see
suspicion of assault, the deadlyweapon, false imprisonment, correct?
Worst oral copulation makingterrorist threats and furnishing
(29:45):
narcotics to this 24 year old woman.
Apparently this was not the Sthis was not the first incident.
Um, there was also, um, some, some,uh, key something brought against him
for doing something similar to a musicexecutive, a young music exhibit.
Brittney Sherman (30:02):
So he, uh, I think so he was, he held her captive for
three days and ultimately I think thesuspicion turned out to be accurate.
You know, he drugged her, he forcedher to do sex acts on his girlfriend.
Uh, Tonya.
Sonia Meza-Leon (30:22):
Tanya has her jazzy
Brittney Sherman (30:24):
Hejazi.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Uh, and, uh, of course false imprisonment.
Oh, oh, strange.
I, I found this to be a reallystrange crime because what.
Oh, I guess, what do you get out of anycrime, but holding someone for three days,
forcing drugs on them and forcing themto perform sex acts on your girlfriend.
(30:46):
I mean, what is the, whatwas the point of that?
What drove him to that?
That's what I don't understand.
Like it was just such a bad high.
Was it such a drug induced motivation?
That's what I don't
Sonia Meza-Leon (30:57):
understand.
Well, here's what I think thatlet's just call it what it is.
This was in the time or Rick James career.
If this would have happened inthe height of his career, this
wouldn't have been a crime.
And I can guarantee you that thisprobably happened frequently.
You know where I mean, that'swhat it looks like to me.
They, he would be with multiple women.
(31:21):
Um, he would do whatever he wanted,you know, you know, get over.
You're a bitch, I'mRick James or whatever.
So he had a history of this.
I think that it was just, this moment was,you know, Uh, this, somebody came forward
and finally said, you know enough with it.
I froze.
So let's go.
What do
Brittney Sherman (31:38):
you think this is before we go deeper?
So you think that essentially thiswas, this was a pattern he had done
this many times before, but he gotcaught because his level of fame.
Dwindling and maybe this person feltmore comfortable coming forward, or
maybe this person was now believedbecause he wasn't as famous and
(32:00):
untouchable as he was previously,
Sonia Meza-Leon (32:02):
this would have been covered up.
Okay.
So here's the, the way this wentdown was that James, Rick James and
his girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi were.
They met up with this girl,this 24 year old woman.
Um, apparently she was unemployed.
They met her at a party and they'relike, Hey, you know, come and stay
with us at the big Hollywood Hillshouse, you know, with the Rick James.
(32:23):
Awesome.
So, you know, again, you know, luring her.
He threatened her with a gun.
He told her that he would killher if she tried to leave.
Uh, he and the Tonya Hejazi tiedher up and severely burner, um, w 20
times or so with a hot crack pipe.
(32:43):
And then he, like you said, heforced the victim to essentially, you
know, give oral whatever to Hijazi.
Um, while he watched again, this wouldbe typical behavior for Rick James.
This is something that would happenprobably on tour, like five times a week.
Um, and then they smoke crack and thenthey forced the victim to as well.
(33:05):
And then the girl just wandersout of the house somehow makes
her way to, um, Hospital.
And then the hospital called the police.
So she didn't call thepolice, the hospital.
Right.
Makes sense.
Yep.
Okay.
So if the hospital wouldn't have calledthe police, there's, there's, it's
unlikely that Rick James would have everhad any issues with this, but I think
(33:27):
for something now, what, what I thinkhappened again, you know, I think this
was typical behavior for Rick James.
This is typical for someone whohas this kind of power, is that
they're going to tell people todo whatever they want them to do.
And in that.
Those people feel overpowered.
And because they're trying to pleasethis famous person or whatever,
they'll do whatever they want.
We've seen this time and time again witha variety of different people in power.
(33:52):
Um, you know, I would say MichaelJackson would probably fall into this
category where they were untouchableand they had enough money to quiet
people and buy people off and, youknow, keep people from coming forward
because they would, those peoplewould be not punished, but they would
lose their career or they would lose.
They would fall out of favor.
People.
So I do think it was a similar situation.
(34:13):
I think Rick James had, I mean, whenyou're doing crack, I guess, you
know, I mean, I don't know, you'renot, probably not in your right mind
anyway, but to be a person who wasdoing that kind of drug or those kinds
of drugs, many drugs, and to have thisall powerful feeling, you know, you're
untouchable, you can do whatever you want.
I mean, you are the king of the world.
And I think that cocaine justmakes that feeling much more,
(34:36):
um, You know, probably prominent.
So again, you know, you're untouchable.
I.
I, I, I think this wasprobably common for James.
I think that he just had anunwilling participant or he had
a willing participant who went tothe hospital and the hospital, you
know, made a big deal out of it.
But, and Rick Jameswas a powerful anymore.
Powerful enough to, to sort of get,get away from this kind of thing.
(34:57):
I bet in back in the day, when he waspowerful, I guarantee his record label
or any of his powerful friends would haveprobably cut, had this resolved quickly.
He would have just got dismissed andnobody would've said anything about it.
It would have been a misunder.
And
Brittney Sherman (35:11):
that's very possible.
And at this point he probably,well, he was still famous in 1991.
He was certainly not at the peak ofhis fame and maybe he didn't have the
proper resources to buy this person off.
Uh, and he, uh, he was no longer.
(35:33):
Rick James, the superstar who hadall these resources available to him.
Uh, and I think that actually, ifyou go back in again, as crazy as
it sounds, watch that Chappelle showepisode, it'll speak to the people
that he upset over his life that made.
At one time would have stoodup for him and helped him hide
(35:54):
it and cover these things up nolonger wanted to do that for him.
And he didn't have that.
Sonia Meza-Leon (36:00):
Well, he couldn't, you know, they couldn't,
they couldn't put themselves atrisk with his behavior anymore.
And I think that's ultimately what it was.
I think that, um, you know,Again, I would say, take a look
at tales from the tour bus.
And I say that in a, I mean, I watchedthat, that I knew it was a comedy.
I love Mike judge, but I felt really,I thought that the guys in the,
(36:23):
from the band who were interviewed,I mean, there were funny as hell.
These guys, these were old,like salty, you know, like
R and B guys like funk guys.
I mean, they got it.
You know, but they, theyjust really struggled with
it because he was their guy.
Right.
He was the lead singer of their band.
He was there, their, youknow, powerful leader and.
(36:45):
Ultimately, you know, he fell apart andhe didn't try to take them with him, but
they could never get back together and theband can never be successful without him.
So it just led to failure.
It was really a bummer, but they talkedabout him thoughtfully and they talked
about him as, um, in a way that, you know,suggested that he had some demons that
(37:06):
he was dealing with for his entire life.
And he didn't know any other wayto sort of, you know, sort of.
Execute, um, on, you know, hisbehavior, but I'm not as dismissive
because I don't, I don't look,I don't care how famous you are.
I don't think you shouldbe allowed to rate people.
And I don't think there's, there'sno, you know, Uh, way that you can
(37:28):
tell me that there's any difference.
It's like, you know, I mean, justbecause you're a famous no, no, it's a
suggestion or, oh, it was consensual.
Not really.
No.
I
Brittney Sherman (37:37):
mean, it's not even worth entertaining that idea
because it's so despicable to thinkthat someone might think that it's
Sonia Meza-Leon (37:41):
okay.
Well, it happens all the time.
I know.
Watch like any big rock and roll band.
These people, that'show they, they operate.
You know, I mean, I'm not going to saythat every musician out there in the world
is a rapist, but we know, I mean, if youknow anybody who's ever been a part of
those groups, um, and I knew know someof those people, you know, they, they
(38:05):
take advantage of situations and peoplebecause they have the power to do so.
And then they get used tothat kind of thing and, um,
it's becomes normal for them.
And it also.
I have to say it desensitizesthem to what's normal and it
makes them want more of it.
Like they can't be satisfiedwith normal anymore.
They have to have this over the topbehavior because they're so bored,
(38:29):
honestly, with normal behavior.
I don't think Rick James couldhave had a normal relationship
to be quite honest with you.
I think you needed this kind of,of, um, sort of that excitement.
Brittney Sherman (38:39):
He found it exciting despicable, disgusting, awful.
And.
I, I agree.
And, you know,
Sonia Meza-Leon (38:47):
he says
Brittney Sherman (38:49):
in that Chappelle show episode, you says cocaine is a
powerful drug, but I think to yourpoint, fame is a powerful drug.
Well, it's what drove him.
And that's what drives so manypeople like you're referring
Sonia Meza-Leon (39:01):
to it.
Definitely.
And I think.
It's Chris rock said at one time.
And I thought it was really interesting.
Um, you know, but he talks about, um,infidelity in one of his like standup
shows and he says, you know, whenyou're famous, you know, you are, you
are only as faithful as your options.
And if you've got all the options in theworld, You're going to take advantage
(39:22):
of those, you know, there's nobody,you know, he makes fun of it, but he's
like, there's no like, you know, nerdywhite dude in the corner without the
option saying, you know, he's gonnatake advantage of women because he
just doesn't have the option to do so.
But when you have the world onyou're on a platter and there are
no repercussions for your actions.
Awfully hard to manage yourself if youdon't have that moral construct from
(39:44):
a young child, honestly, I mean, andthat's for a lot of reasons, economic
rubric James, um, his mom sort ofgave him that modeling and in it's a
bad situation to be in, but I don'tthink that he was ever in a situation
to ever understand that it could be.
Going back to Rick James let's rememberthat this was a person who was addicted
to drugs for absolutely many, many,many years early on in his life.
(40:07):
So pretty much his entire life.
So I think we're expecting a lot of aperson who has that kind of addiction
to be able to correct themselves.
Just it's really not possible.
I mean, they have a hard enoughtime just managing their daily.
You know, feelings and their dailylife, and those triggers with positive
triggers or negative triggers,triggers are triggers, and they will
(40:28):
send these people into a spiral.
So it's, um, I'm not surprising thatRick James got there considering the path
that he took, but it's disappointing.
And it bums me out because I didappreciate his music and I did really
feel like that he was an innovator.
Um, but I, I wished that he could havebeen able to get a handle on himself and
use that for something more positive.
(40:50):
Um, instead of, you know, sort ofgoing down this road and ultimately
he passed away of a heart attack.
I mean, he'd very sad.
Brittney Sherman (40:57):
Yeah.
So, um, so if we can.
Step backwards.
Get into, uh, we, we talked about thecrime, the three-day imprisonment.
He was arrested along withhis girlfriend, Tanya Hijazi.
Uh, they were released on a half, amillion dollars bond pending trial,
and while they were free on bond.
(41:20):
They did this again to a music executivein 1993, while they were awaiting trial,
uh, and held her for 20 hours this time.
But pretty much it was the sameset of circumstances to kind of
what you were talking about beforethis wasn't a one-time thing.
(41:40):
This was a pattern.
This was regular.
How he operated and
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:47):
it will be normal.
This is what this, this was atotally normal thing for him to do.
Brittney Sherman (41:54):
And he was rearrested on this charge thankfully and ultimately
found guilty on both charges and he facedlife in prison for false and prison.
But somehow I don't understand this.
He was found not guilty of that charge,but was guilty of other charges.
(42:17):
Uh, so he served two years in prison andwhile he was in prison, the second woman
who, uh, the music executive, Mary saga,She received a $2 million civil suit
payout from Rick James estate and thenan additional $750,000 from a private
(42:38):
security firm and the hotel where she was
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:41):
held back.
They must have not had enoughto prove that he held her.
Hm.
Interestingly
Brittney Sherman (42:48):
against her whale or something.
Right,
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:50):
exactly.
Yeah.
It gets tough because you've got again,
Brittney Sherman (42:53):
hang on a second.
Hang on a second.
Let me rephrase.
I, I guess I got that backwards.
He was, he was found guiltyof false imprisonment.
He was found not guilty oftorture and torture was the charge
that could have put him away.
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:04):
Interesting.
Yeah.
I, um, wow.
Well, he got out and he did, hedid a couple more things when
he got out and the ultimate.
Passed away, right?
Yeah.
Brittney Sherman (43:14):
He, uh, in all, honestly, what is what I
found really kind of interesting.
Um, you know, he had these charges,he did some time in prison.
I don't think it was enough,but he tried to make a comeback.
He was featured on Chappelle show.
(43:37):
For an entire generation.
That's how people know of Rick James.
And he was planning a comeback tour.
Very similar to Michael Jackson wasplanning his comeback to, or when he died.
And in, uh, as you said, he, Rick Jamesultimately died of a heart attack in 2004.
(43:59):
Therefore his reallylast stint of fame was.
Chappelle's show and he was neverable to regain the level of prominence
or reputation of, uh, in musicthat he, I think always strive
to achieve, but he never got thelevel of respect that he felt he
Sonia Meza-Leon (44:24):
deserved.
Yeah.
I, uh, Hmm.
That's sad.
Alrighty.
Well, there you go.
Yeah.
I
Brittney Sherman (44:34):
dunno, I guess I don't, because I just feel that he's, you
know, he, uh, I don't feel sad for him.
I don't think he was.
I think he was a very talented guy.
I think that he was a great artist heworked with, but you know, a lot of the
people you talked about, what are theones I found most fascinating was Neil
young, uh, and try to collaborate withCrosby stills, young and Nash, but that
(44:58):
ended up not happening, but he never, he.
Want it, that level of Michael Jacksonand prince fame, but he never got.
Sonia Meza-Leon (45:08):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, again, I thinkhis actions sort of didn't,
you know, sort of go there.
I, I, I don't know.
I don't know if I would agree with himthat he deserved that kind of fame.
Brittney Sherman (45:21):
I don't think it, I don't agree that he did.
I didn't think he was nearly as
Sonia Meza-Leon (45:24):
talented as they were.
Yeah.
Which is sad.
And again, you know, back to a drugaddiction, maybe he wasn't because he
just couldn't overcome that addiction.
So we will never know, but,uh, An interesting case to say
the least, uh, Scarlett autos.
I know that, um, a lot ofpeople sort of forget sometimes
about the Rick James crimes.
(45:44):
And I'm glad we could talk aboutthem, Brittany, but the other parts
of it, where we talk about princeand, and the history, you know, I
would highly suggest going back andlook at the, that the, the Chappelle
show and the tales from the tour bus.
Again, you know, Wikipediaactually has some really good
information about Rick James thatI thought was interesting as well.
And then there's a ton of stuff onYouTube where you can watch interviews
(46:06):
with Rick James, talk about MTV.
So, um, I would strongly suggestit, but, you know, again, I, I'm
sad to see the downfall of peoplewho have drug problems and, um, you
know, it's a good example of how it'sjust almost impossible to overcome.
It's terrible.
Brittney Sherman (46:19):
I was really surprised when I started researching this because
you suggested this topic, uh, interviewed.
I think I mentioned at the start ofour episode here, that I didn't realize
all of the things that he was into.
And unfortunately, I think weprobably only scratched the
surface of all the things that hedid that just weren't reported.
Uh, in two other quick things to wrapthis up in 1998, he was accused of.
(46:43):
Third rape, but those charges were laterdropped after he was out of prison.
And earlier this year in Februaryof 2020, he's a state was sued by a
woman who suggested that he raped her.
As you mentioned earlier in Buffalo, whenI think she was 15 years old in 1978.
(47:03):
So.
Unfortunately, these, uh, thesecharges, they keep popping up even
over 15 years after his death.
And we're learning moreabout the guy and, uh, hu.
My opinion really only had two hitsongs, but try to leave a legacy and
his legacy is turning out to be morecriminal and sorted rather than musical.
(47:27):
Okay.
We're gonna wrap this episode up.
Um, Everyone out there, stay healthy.
Keep social distancing.
I know it's a tough time right now.
I know it's hard to stay home whenthe weather's starting to get nice.
Uh, but we're tryingto protect each other.
Stay healthy.
Thank you to all of our first responders.
(47:51):
Thanks to all of the,uh, healthcare workers.
Sonia, anything else?
Sonia Meza-Leon (47:57):
Nope.
Looking forward to, uh, therelease in this episode.
So stay tuned.
All right.
Brittney Sherman (48:04):
Um, well, shout out to everyone in the pod
all the time podcast network.
We're glad to be part of you guys.
We are the ladies of Scarlet.
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