August 10, 2020 • 47 mins
The ladies of Scarlet TCP discuss their Top 3, or Top 20 as it turns out to be, wrongful convictions of innocent men.
In this episode of Scarlet True Crime Podcast, the ladies tackle the hot button issue of the criminal justice system in the United States. The West Memphis 3, Ruben "Hurricane Carter," the Hollywood 10, and the Central Park 5 all make an appearance in this episode of Scarlet TCP.
Listen to hear the passion from Sonia and Brittney come through in the new episode of Scarlet.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brittney Sherman (00:40):
It's uh, it's your ladies of Scarletto ever,
but we're not ladies of Scarletto.
We got to start that over.Over.
Sonia Meza-Leon (00:51):
We're so rusty.
Brittney Sherman (00:54):
Uh, all right.
Hey, Scott lottos.
We are your ladies of Scarlet.
So it's been a minute.
We, um, we took some time.
We, we took a little break.
We had, I think, finished 35episodes, but, um, we, we rested up
(01:15):
and now we're, we're coming back.
So welcome back to the routine, Sonia,
Sonia Meza-Leon (01:21):
and I'm so excited about the routine.
I have to say.
Um, well, two things first off.
You know, it's been crazy latelywith the COVID-19 thing and working
from home and Brittany, you know,this too, we've been slammed.
And, um, when I look at my lifeand I kind of think, oh, I need to
really like find my happy place.
(01:42):
And then I, I go and I sit down andI watch a bunch of documentaries
about true crime and murder.
And I'm like, this is my happy place.
Yeah, it's a little disturbing, butit truly is, you know, I've missed it.
I miss talking to you about this stuff.
I mean, we talk all the time, but notabout anything, you know, enjoyable
question, the whatever, like air quotes,but you know, just, I think things
(02:05):
we're passionate about plus, you know,I miss the banter, so I'm so excited.
We are back.
We did take a bit of a break, um,you know, to catch our breaths
so much going on and sometimes.
You were happening in the world thatI felt I just didn't really have.
Um, I D I didn't needa voice at that moment.
I thought that it that's, thesituations are speaking for themselves.
(02:26):
So out of respect to those situations,I thought it was kind of a good
idea for us to take a moment and tolook around and what was happening.
Brittney Sherman (02:32):
Yeah.
I agree.
You know, we, you, youkind of touched on it.
We were slammed with our regular lives.
So, um, I felt like I needed anopportunity to step back for a bit.
I felt like.
It wasn't the re the right time,the best time to be concentrating
on this, but, um, I'm, I'm excited.
(02:55):
Um, I'm really lookingforward to getting back.
I think we're going to have a few changesthat will, um, we, we hope you'd like
that we think will hopefully improve.
We are working on trying to buildour brand a little bit and hopefully
make Scarlet TCP a little bit.
Sonia Meza-Leon (03:15):
That's right.
And, um, I'm excited about tonight becausein this episode, you know, as we normally
do for each each record, you know, werecord a couple of episodes at a time and
we usually start, you know, we developedthis system where we can really get into
our group quickly by just having a, sortof a run and gun, top three conversation.
(03:36):
And, you know, it's just a momentfor us to talk about things, um, you
know, quickly, uh, you know, top line.
That allows us, you know, just toget warmed up without having too much
detail and too much reference material.
And, um, this, I suggested this topicto you and the topic is, I said, you
know, let's talk about our top threeunjust verdicts or what most people
(04:00):
would call wrongful convictions.
Right.
I said that in passing because, you know,I had a lot of things on my mind and I
had been watching some things lately andI, I, one of my favorite documentaries
about some true crime, true crimesituation is, is in particular about that.
And, um, I, then I started lickingmy list and it was really hard.
(04:21):
So my list is actually probably alittle different than you're expecting,
but let's dive right into it.
Let's do our top three wrongful conduct.
Brittney Sherman (04:30):
Well, you can't leave me baited like that.
So this was your topic.
You seem to have some unique thoughts.
So what are you getting.
Sonia Meza-Leon (04:39):
Well, let's go back a little bit because what do
we mean by wrongful convictions?
That's like, I thought it best.
I mean, I wasn't even callingit the wrong thing running.
I was saying unjust verdicts.
Right.
But Bronco convictions, themore appropriate terminology
and used by most, I.
I had a hard time, you know, becausethere's so many, I was really saddened
(05:02):
by the number of, of, of wrongfulconvictions and the people who are
sitting in jail now because of it.
So I, my choice for my topthree is actually just one case.
And, um, Yeah, I know I had a really hardtime trying to figure out who I would put
on my list because all of the wrongfulconvictions in my opinion are terrible.
(05:25):
Right.
Terrible situations.
Like, and I didn't want to disrespectany of those other choices, honestly.
It's not fair for me to say,oh, one's better than the other.
And in this one, I was like, ah, thisis, this is a tough one, but go back
a little bit to wrongful convictions.
Colorado sciences attention toa really, really interesting.
(05:47):
Piece of literature, literaturethat op-ed piece by John Grisham.
Right.
And we know who John Grisham is,world famous attorney writer.
And he did an amazing job of summarizingthe eight reasons for America's
shameful number of wrongful convictions.
And he wrote it for the LA times.
It was written in 2018.
I would suggest you guys reading it.
(06:09):
It's so fascinating becausehe writes like a screenwriter.
So he writes in a way.
Really is compelling.
And so you're entertained by hispeace, but he is so right on with it.
And you know, just a summary of wrongfulconvictions in the United States.
I think that right now, the averagethat's considered, you know, the,
(06:31):
for wrongful convictions versusother convictions, it's 2%, 10%.
I feel
Brittney Sherman (06:36):
like the phone.
Yeah, it's a real lot.
I actually was going to say it'slike 10%, which is way, way too many.
Yeah, no, there, there was a greatquote, I think even by Ronald Reagan
who kind of prided himself on lawand order that pretty much said.
Wrong Cole wrongful conviction isworse than 100 guilty men going free.
(07:02):
You
Sonia Meza-Leon (07:02):
Bennet, but it's rampant.
And, uh, usually, you know, Ihave to say most of the time.
We have revolves around peoplewho don't have the ability, the
financial means or the support inany other way, really, to be able
to, um, you know, defend themselves.
They probably got a, a typical,you know, someone assigned
(07:23):
to their cases and attorney.
I mean, it's a lot easier to, to defendyourself when you have a lot of money
and you can afford good representation.
So that's.
It is, it really does suck, but, um, theJohn Grisham piece is really interesting
and he contributes, uh, You know, the,the number of wrongful convictions to a
couple of things, you know, his, his topin no particular order, he says are bad
(07:46):
police work, prosecutorial misconduct,false confessions, faulty eyewitness
identification, jailhouse snitches, whichI don't know why people would think that
would be really, you know, Uh, okay.
To when you're, when somebody's lifeis on the line to listen to someone
in jail, trying to get a reducedsentence, it's weird, a bad lawyering,
(08:07):
sleeping judges, meaning just lettingthings happen and then junk science.
So it's a really goodarticle if you want to.
Um, guys want to look at it because I justthink John Grisham was really talented.
And when he writes, um, for thepeople who really understands
how to convey that message.
So now that we talked aboutwrongful convictions and what
they are, and we talked about how.
That are currently happening thepercentage anyway, 2% at 10%, but I
(08:30):
can tell you in the past, I'm sure thatthat has been much more, especially
when it comes to people of color or,you know, people who are compromised and
vulnerable, you know, Yeah, definitely.
So sorry.
That was really first.
That was a whole long intro.
So I know I even got lost
Brittney Sherman (08:49):
number three.
Sonia Meza-Leon (08:51):
Well, I want to talk about my number three, because
like I said, my number three isactually all three of my, my wrongful
convictions are from one case.
Um, and that case isthe west Memphis three.
And again, my choice was this,the specific case really.
Disturbing to me in so many ways andreally well-documented and there are
(09:13):
every other wrongful conviction isprobably as bad or worse, but this one
just really hit home for me for a varietyof reasons you had in 1994 or 1993.
Three young boys, eight years oldto, I think they were in second
grade murdered horrendously.
Um, obviously they were tortured.
(09:33):
There was hard to tell about, you know,sexual abuse and things like that.
Um, if you don't know thiscase, I would look into it.
It's called the west Muslim.
It's three weapons west, west, Memphis,Arkansas, um, and you know, sleepy
little town, little country town.
There were these three, secondgraders apparently were out,
(09:56):
you know, doing whatever secondgraders do, riding their bicycles.
And, um, someone snatchedthem, took them to the woods.
Um, hogtied them.
It looked like they raped them.
They mutilated their bodies and thenthey left them in the Creek bed.
So what actually ended up happeningwas one of the boys died by blunt force
(10:16):
trauma and a variety of other things.
And.
The other two boys actually drowned inthe Creek bed, but they too were hogtied.
And, um, there's an interestingdocumentary called paradise lost, um,
about this case because, and it's, I, Iwill warn everyone too, when you watch.
(10:36):
If you watch it, there aregraphic photos of the children
and the way that they were found.
And it's really, reallyhorrifying in this town.
The small little Bible belt townjust didn't know what to do with it.
So cut to, um, three teenagers, um,that somehow or another got roped into,
um, the situation as suspects soundsto me like one of them who didn't know
(11:02):
the other two very well, but knew them.
You've got the, the three, the three, andthis is, these are my three, my three, you
know, essentially are the three guys whowere wrongfully convicted for the crimes.
And I think it's known now thatthey were wrongfully convicted.
I think it's, everybody would agree.
Um, but I'll go through each of them.
And then I also want to talk a littlebit about the, the little boys that were
(11:24):
murdered because it's totally terrible.
Um, but it was really, reallyhard, so I'll stop there.
Um, but so that makes.
I know crazy.
Right?
So that makes my number three on my list.
Now that I gave you some backup by froshorter, a backstory for the west Memphis
three, um, E now we'll talk about mynumber three of the wrongful convictions,
(11:48):
and that is particular to this case.
And his name is Jesse Ms.
Kelly.
He was 17 years old.
Um, uh, he came forward somehow.
With the police either.
They picked him up.
I'm not sure how they got him in involved,but they essentially questioned him.
And got him to confess to thecrimes saying that he and two other
(12:11):
people who are my number two andmy number one, um, worked together
and did this crime committed thecrime against these three boys.
And, um, it was instead, it waspart of like a satanic ritual.
So we'll leave it.
A couple of things about Jessie, Ms.
Kelly.
Um, as, you know, if you, if yougo and you look into the case,
(12:32):
it's, what's interesting is he,he did have a bad reputation.
I think that he had, um,his IQ was compromised.
I think he had a very low IQ, which isone of the reasons they say that he was
easily, um, vulnerable to, you know, beingprompted in questioning a confessions and.
What's crazy about it.
The Jessie, Ms.
Kelly Guy, the one who pretty muchblew the whistle on these other two
(12:54):
kids who were became suspects andthen were ultimately found guilty.
They didn't know each other very well.
So here, you've got a guy saying,Hey, Yeah, me and these two guys,
we went in, we grabbed these two,three boys and we dragged them into
the woods and I held them down.
While these other two guys didthese things to this, these, these
boys, they didn't really know eachother, like out of the blue, these
(13:16):
other two guys get roped into this.
And, you know, you can kind of seean unfold in the documentary, but
I will hold, I reserve my numbertwo are in my number one for later.
But my first is obviously that Jesse Ms.
Kelly kid.
You know, who just needed to getthe hell out of the police station.
He was like, he would havesaid anything at that point.
And he essentially just said, he saidwhat he had heard about the case.
(13:38):
And he, many of the thingsthat he noted were wrong.
So of course, a person at his age,you know, not having representation
in the room, um, of questionable and,you know, IQ who was easily persuaded.
You know, he, he didn'thave much of a chance.
Brittney Sherman (13:53):
No, I.
I am not surprised thatyou picked that topic.
I know it's one that youare passionate about.
It's a frustrating topic foranyone that is familiar with it,
or has watched paradise lost.
In fact, if I'm not mistaken,it's a three-part docu-series.
Over the course of like 20years or something, right?
Sonia Meza-Leon (14:14):
Yeah.
It's um, you can watch there is that.
And then there's also one that itlooked like HBO just compiled together
to make one like 140 minute piece.
But, um, yeah, so.
Once they had all of these threepieces because they had recorded
their shot this over time.
Um, then they, they did compileit at the time they were
releasing them individually.
(14:34):
And there was a lot of peoplebehind, um, the supporting
these guys and it didn't help.
I mean, they spent 18 years in jail.
Uh, I mean for crimes that really, theyweren't, there was no proof that they did.
They didn't.
I mean, other than a couple ofthings, Led this town to sort of
call them out and to ostracize them.
And we'll talk about those, those,those, those reasons later, because
(14:57):
this is where I can kind of reallyassociate myself with these boys.
And it's terrifying to think youcould just get railroaded like that.
Brittney Sherman (15:05):
Okay.
So my number three is not as deep asthat I'll get there, but my number three.
Is the Hollywood 10.
And are you familiar withthe Hollywood 10 Sonya?
No, it is
Sonia Meza-Leon (15:24):
that, that sounds really, it sounds like a bar.
Brittney Sherman (15:29):
It's probably not quite what you're thinking of, but
we're going to, we're going to do alittle history lesson right now after
world war II ended in the late forties.
There was a Senator from my prideand joy, Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy,
who was, uh, went on a very stronganticommunist tear through the country.
(15:54):
And he set his sights on Hollywood.
And there were hundreds, ifnot thousands of Hollywood
executives, writers, producers.
That were targeted as being eitherpotential communist, communist
(16:14):
sympathizers, Stalinists, what have you.
And while communism was not illegalin America, as you can imagine.
Extremely frowned on and, uh,not something that anyone wanted
to be considered a part of.
So in, uh, 1947, he started, uh,he, Joseph McCarthy, uh, started the
(16:43):
house un-American committee or whoact and subpoenaed 79 people, uh,
claiming that they were communists.
Of those 79, ultimately 10 of them wouldcome to stand trial in front of Congress.
Now, again, it wasn't illegal tobe a communist in America, but they
(17:07):
were ultimately blacklisted and theirtrial was not for being a communist,
but for perjuring themselves.
So.
10 Hollywood creatives, uh, politicalideation, unclear, you know, they D they
(17:30):
denied ultimately being true communists.
They, they denied being the Stalinistsor supportive of the Soviet union, but
they were determined to have lied toCongress and perjured themselves, and
were sentenced to eight months in federal.
(17:52):
And that was the star of what manypeople can still hear of and are familiar
with of the Hollywood black list.
Uh, and so the Hollywood blacklist is.
An unofficial list at the time,it was a real list of, uh, at this
time it was a list of communists orcommunist sympathizers who worked
(18:15):
in Hollywood, who were no longerallowed to work in Hollywood.
A blacklisting is still athing where you're doing.
Spread around town and you essentiallyare no longer allowed to unofficially
no longer allowed to work and you'reon hireable, but this was the start
of the black list system throughwhat many consider an unjust trial
(18:41):
in front of Congress of ultimately 10influential creatives that may or may
not have been communists in a frequent.
Sonia Meza-Leon (18:52):
Wow.
So what w what happened?
Brittney Sherman (18:56):
They were, they were found guilty of perjury.
The only crime they legally couldhave been found guilty of for saying
they weren't communists in front ofCongress, even though under oath, even
though they were felt that they werecommunists and so lying to Congress,
and they spent eight months in prison.
Never were able to get theirjobs or regain their jobs back.
(19:19):
Um, there was a, I haven't seen this,but there was for you really old
fashion, Hollywood nerds, kind of likemyself who kind of wants to see this.
Uh, there was a 16 millimeter documentaryshot about it in the fifties, but
then there's also a movie calledone of the Hollywood 10 that focused
(19:40):
specifically on one screen writer.
Who fought the hardest to try and proclaimhis innocence despite being found guilty.
Sonia Meza-Leon (19:48):
And when was
Brittney Sherman (19:49):
this?
Uh, late forties, early fifties,uh, it was throughout what is known
as the who act period, the houseon American activities committee
periods, blood by Joseph McCarthy.
And it was kind of a tirade that hewent on to rid the country of any
potential communist sympathizers.
(20:09):
And he said his focus on Hollywood and the
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:12):
Hollywood system.
My feelings about thatera in another episode.
But, um, there was a lot of shadystuff that happened around that time.
I mean, it was, um, it wasthe wild west in Hollywood.
Brittney Sherman (20:27):
Okay.
Onto your number two, even thoughyou already kind of gave up.
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:31):
I did.
Sorry.
So back to the west Memphis threecase, uh, I sorta Terentino's
this whole process by the way.
So I get it, uh, by the way.
Um,
Brittney Sherman (20:44):
yeah, no, for sure.
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so my number two was Jason Baldman,who was another one of the mid west
Memphis three in Arkansas, 1994.
Convicted of, uh, murdering being aparticipant in murdering three second
graders and mutilating their bodies.
And he was sentenced to life.
(21:08):
He as well as the other boys,eventually after 18 years, um, they
did some kind of plea deal on usingthe Alford plea and they were released,
but ultimately ruin their life.
I mean, these guys were in jailfrom being 17 years old, you
know, up until 18 years later.
(21:28):
So their lives had changeddramatically because of this.
What was interesting about Jason, Bob?
Again, the other guy who ratted onthem, the, the confession or the,
the, whatever we're going to callit, the guy who had some problems and
confessed under pressure, he didn'treally, I mean, he didn't know them.
They weren't close friends.
He didn't know Baldwin nor did heknow the other suspect as well.
(21:51):
Um, ballroom was interesting.
He, you know, he, while, while the otherguys, the other two Westminster was
three guys, they did get in some troublesand vandalism, some shoplifting, um,
Baldwin actually got really good grades.
Jason Baldwin was not a dumb kid.
He was a smart kid.
He was a really good artist.
(22:11):
Apparently he was talented.
And, um, I guess he was going to go onto college, to study graphic design.
Um, w when I unveil my number one,which you guys already know if you
know the west Memphis three, we'lltalk a little bit about those things
that they ha they were had in common.
Um, but yeah.
Uh, my, again, my number two, JasonBaldwin, poor kid, 16 years old,
(22:34):
you know, 17 goes to jail for whathe thinks is the rest of his life.
Um, for a crime, he really, reallydidn't commit that appears to be
well-proven that he didn't commit.
So again, you know, a travesty ofjustice and a really sad situation.
Brittney Sherman (22:50):
All right.
My number two is Ruben hurricane Carter.
Oh, I first learned aboutand, uh, became, he became.
Probably pretty famous because of aBob Dylan song called the hurricane.
You know that on ya?
Sonia Meza-Leon (23:11):
I hate Bob Dylan.
I know you do.
That's how I, oh, God,like that was that's.
I don't, there's no comparison the wayyou could ask me that I'm like, I that's
the furthest from my, my, my worldof music and I don't mind folk music.
I just, Bob Dylan's voice just makes me
Brittney Sherman (23:28):
that's crazy.
You know, I had a teacher onetime compared Bob Dylan's.
As the most successful worst singer ofall time, specifically referring to.
Sonia Meza-Leon (23:42):
I'd probably agree with that.
Brittney Sherman (23:44):
Uh, but he's a hell of a songwriter and his, his song.
The hurricane is an eight minuteplus song about Rubin Carter, who
was a middleweight boxer in the1960s in Patterson, New Jersey.
And he happened to beat a neighboring bar.
(24:06):
To where a armed robbery andshooting that led to the death of
a couple of patrons took place.
And he wa the witnesses claimed thatthey saw two, maybe three black men
that were a, the VSA lens and a similartime Carter and two other men were
(24:30):
leaving a neighboring bar and then were.
No, doubtedly trailed by police.
And at this time, Carter was not,he didn't have a clean slate.
He was dishonorably discharged from themilitary for, uh, disciplinary reasons.
He had charges against him for abuse, buthe was cleaning up his act and he was.
(25:00):
Pace to become, to challenge forthe world boxing middleweight
championship of the world.
When he was pulled over after droppinga friend off and arrested, ultimately
charged and was convicted of murder.
Now, the witnesses who claim to see,uh, that the shooters were black.
(25:25):
Did not pin Carter to the scene.
They did not identify him as a suspect.
There was a female witness who calledattention to a different suspect,
but that suspect said he was justrobbing the place and he wasn't
responsible for any of the deaths.
(25:47):
And the, I will, I seriously have to say.
He ultimately, uh, was releasedfrom prison in the nineties, uh,
because the witnesses recanted andthere was evidence to support that
he was never actually at that bar.
And seriously though, like that BobDylan song can sum up this case.
(26:08):
So, well, In eight minutesand then there's a 1999 movie
starring Denzel Washington.
That's about the same casethat I've seen parts of.
And it's pretty good, butit's, it's really a case that
I've always found fascinating,particularly because of that song.
And I seriously would recommend anyone.
Who's got eight minutes to do thedishes or running errands or something.
(26:31):
Just throwing that song.
You will get a reallygreat history lesson.
I
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:35):
think I saw that movie.
Brittney Sherman (26:37):
Yeah.
Did you see it?
I've seen parts of it.
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:42):
I don't know what, I didn't see the whole thing I
Brittney Sherman (26:46):
remember.
I know I do too.
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:49):
All right.
Well, very.
So what I mean, what was the end result?
Did he get convicted?
Did he die?
No.
Brittney Sherman (26:57):
No, he was, he was convicted, but, uh, he's
served like 20 years in prison.
And then.
Was released after witnesses,ultimately recanted.
And there was actually really noevidence to support that he was,
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:12):
oh, well, that's awesome.
Wait to wait 20 freaking years.
Oh yeah.
Brittney Sherman (27:16):
It's terrible.
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:16):
How do you live with yourself even?
I mean, I would doubt myself like day one.
When it comes to someone'slife in my hands.
I mean, that is on the list.
You know what I mean?
I think that S Isen things aredeceiving, you know, when you're in
a moment and you think you're seeingsomething, or you thought you saw
something really clearly, but, youknow, I mean, how well did you see it?
(27:40):
You know, it's just, it's, it's so tough.
All right.
Well, I like that one.
So you've got one left, right?
And your, your number,your, no, one's going to.
Brittney Sherman (27:50):
All right.
So you, uh, you take us away for your
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:53):
number one.
My number one is again, one of thewest Memphis three, um, probably
the most well-known Damien Echols.
He was 18 years oldwhen the crime occurred.
So of course he was, uh, anadult, um, and tried accordingly.
And I think the othertwo boys were as well.
I didn't think that they reallycared at that point, um, because
(28:14):
the crime was so horrendous.
Um, Damien Echols.
Uh, from a poor family, hedidn't attend school very often.
He had a girlfriend, they ran off.
Um, I don't know, they ran andbroke into some trailer and then
equals was charged with burglary.
So he had some, you know, stuff.
I mean, he wasn't like a violent criminal.
(28:34):
He was just a dumb kid.
And I think when you watch paradise lost,you'll see that it's, what's terrifying
to me a bit when I watched that.
It really does appear to me in alot of the video that they shot
at him that he doesn't have.
Um, he doesn't have anyfeelings about the situation.
(28:57):
Um, not that he doesn't havefeelings about his own innocence,
but he, and a lot of people say,well, why would he have remorse?
He didn't do it.
But.
Respect for the situation iswhat I think was a bit missing.
And that really offended people.
Um, when you're talking about a crime thatdoes this, this, let me just see these
little boys and what happened to them.
(29:19):
And, um, it, it was, you know, really,really horrendous and he, um, appeared
in court sometimes to be indifferent.
He.
Uh, I mean, he justdidn't take it seriously.
And I don't know if anyof them took it seriously.
I mean, obviously the guy whoconfessed, he didn't take it
seriously when he was confessing.
He just wanted to get out of there.
(29:40):
But, um, Damien Echols, you know, hewas the perfect Patsy for this crime,
um, in Arkansas at the time, becauseagain, it was such a Bible belt and this
was a kid who, you know, later on, Ithink they figured out that he had some
mental, um, Deficiencies as well yet.
Um, you know, grandiose and persecute,persecutory, delusions, auditory, and
(30:03):
visual hallucinations, disordered thoughtprocesses, substantial lack of insight
and chronic incapacitating mood swings.
Um, you know, he had some stuff going onand, um, he it's just really perplexing,
you know, I think that he thought it was ajoke and I think he later, he even tried.
Say that he thought it was a jokethat didn't take it seriously,
(30:25):
but it's when you watch it,it's, it's kind of offensive.
If you're sitting in a room full ofpeople watching this trial go down
against these, these suspects andthey aren't taking it seriously, or he
doesn't appear to be taking it seriously.
And isn't, isn't at least thoughtfulabout the situation it's, um, you really
dislike him and I'll tell you why.
(30:46):
I have an, uh, a feeling,an association with Damian.
And I don't not necessarily aboutthis, but one of the big reasons as
these three kids were sort of targetedwas because they were the poor kids.
They were the dark kids.
And when I say dark, I mean, theywere, you know, they weren't the
jocks or the popular kids, youknow, they were the outliers, they
(31:08):
listened to heavy metal music.
They wore black clothes,they had black fingernails.
I mean, they were, you know, Thepeople associated them with being goth,
even though Jason Baldwin was a goth.
I mean, he was just a heavy metal kid.
He had a little mullet,like no big damn deal.
Um, I mean, it was reallyweird, but Damien Echols
definitely had played that part.
And then of course they found nonsense,um, you know, at Damien Echols
(31:31):
house, which they thought proved thepoint, they found like the satanic
Bible and some other literature.
And he had said at onepoint that he was in a WCA.
They hadn't read his binder and someof the poems he wrote and yeah, they
were a little dark, but I have to say,you know, what attracted me to this
case in particular was because I reallyfelt like that they were ostracized
(31:51):
from their community because of thosereasons they were considered punks,
um, satanic, you know, this was allabout a set, a satanic ritual, um, So
unfair, these guys are kids, right.
And they're being persecuted likethat just for being, you know,
not part of the popular group.
And I felt like that when I was young,you know, I definitely, my crowd was
(32:13):
a little more, uh, well, definitelymore on the outlier side of things.
And, you know, we, Hey,we wore black w who cares.
Like, I don't know if thatwas like a big deal for us.
It wasn't like that defined us, but we,you know, We definitely didn't have that.
You know, I mean, when you're a teenagerand you're not part of the popular group,
you're anything, if you're anything butthe popular group, you're probably not
(32:36):
enjoying yourself that much, unless you'recompletely oblivious because you always,
those, the people who are the popularkids make sure, you know, you're not.
And that's where I feel forthese guys, because it's so true.
They, they love it.
They enjoy it.
It's like, you know who, I mean, ifthey didn't bother you, it wouldn't
be one thing, but I know how it is.
(32:56):
They do bother you.
You know, they make, you know,all the time that you are not part
of the group, you do not fit in.
Um, and it it's crappy.
So, you know, this happened in 19.
Three, I think the, the murders andthey were convicted in 1994, that
would, that's not that many yearsafter I graduated from high school.
So it was probably around that sametime, but it was, you know, I, I thought
(33:18):
that really was a bummer for those guys.
And so that's why there was a lot ofsupport behind these guys, um, in,
especially in the heavy metal community.
Like I think Metallica allowedthem to use like their music
for free and the paradigm.
Documentary.
I mean, there was a big following,like I had heard about west
Memphis three for a long time.
I mean, you know, because you'vegot, you know, once the misfits get
(33:40):
together and there's enough of them,then the misfits are the majority
and then shit kind of goes down.
And that's what happened wasthat everybody who had felt like.
An ever, you know, kind of bandedtogether and said, no, we can't let this
happen to these guys because this isa circumstance that we could have been
in, in the right, at the right time.
But, um, that is my number.
Number one was Damien Echols and man,some terrible, these guys look in,
(34:02):
these guys were in jail for eight.
Years, 18 years from being teenagers.
So they grew up in jail, which ishorrifying and terrible things happened
to them while they were in jail.
I mean, Damien Nichols, he wasraped, you know, they were, it
was there, there, you know, whathappens to child killers in jail?
You know, child molesters in jail, notgood things, you know, I mean, they're.
(34:24):
They're in particular, they're very muchtargeted, you know, so, and these guys
were teenagers, they were young, so Ireally doubt they could defend themselves.
But, um, again, take alook at paradise loss.
It's a really interesting,um, documentary for sure.
And you can look at it in the piecesor you can look at it as a whole.
There's some crazy charactersin that show as well.
It's, uh, you know, I kept thinking,Melissa, some of us was in Tennessee
(34:47):
and Memphis is in Tennessee,but this is actually Arkansas,
which is a different flavor.
Uh, folk.
So take a look, but that's my topthree, Brittany, what's your number one.
Okay.
Brittney Sherman (34:57):
So my number one, you could call number one, you
could call number one through five.
You could even call number onethrough 10 because my number
one is the central park five.
Sonia Meza-Leon (35:12):
That's a good one.
That is a good
Brittney Sherman (35:14):
one.
The central park five are fiveteenage boys who were a accused
of accused and convicted.
I should say of assault, robbery, riot.
Attempted murder, rape and sexual abuse.
(35:38):
And they ranged in the ages of 14 to 16.
And this is a, an event that took placeon April 19th, 1989 in central park,
New York, between 9:00 PM to 10:00PM on a woman named Tricia Mellie.
(35:59):
And.
Uh, these young boys who, um, werejust kinda hanging out were really,
I mean, they're truly innocent kids.
Truly, um, so much so thatone of the boys, the youngest
(36:21):
one still hadn't hit puberty.
So his, uh, the crime of rapewas clearly not possible for him.
These boys were taken infor questioning that night.
They were held without their parents.
They were promised things like.
(36:44):
Food drinks, the ability to go homein order in exchange for confession.
So these immature young kids of horse.
Which we all know, having seenplenty of documentaries of true
crime series, listening to enoughpodcasts like this know that complying
(37:07):
with, without a parent or legalrepresentative is the worst possible
situation for someone to be put in.
And of course they, uh, theirconfessions were held up, taken
to prison and are taken to courtand they were sentenced to prison.
So.
The reason I say five, or thereare up to 10 because that same
(37:32):
night in central park, there wereother events that took place.
And there were actually five otherteenagers that were indicted for.
Uh, assault and attacks on otherpersons, but it's these five boys in
particular that are referred to asthe central park five that are, uh,
(37:57):
they were the ones that were held andconvicted of rape and sexual assault.
And, um, four were ultimately convicted.
One was, uh, convicted on alesser charge, but it was 16.
So he was tried as an adult.
(38:19):
All five of them were charged orconvicted and sentenced to up to
15 years in prison and ultimatelyserved between seven and eight years.
They were natural.
Uh, found not guilty.
And, um, their convictionswere vacated in 2002.
(38:43):
It was an extremely, uh, uproarious event.
I was too young to remember theevent, but I can look back and read
articles and watch footage of it.
And there was, there was a, um, Uh, acry out for justice against them because
(39:08):
there was so much evidence that wasincorrectly mounted against them, that
they never had a shot at a fair trial.
And it's, uh, there's a Netflixseries and I, I want to call it
a great Netflix series by AvaDuVernay called when they see us.
(39:28):
But I hold on calling.
Great.
Not because it isn't, but because Ihad such a hard time watching it, I
literally watched the first episodeand the treatment of these innocent
young, naive boys disturbed me so much.
I could not bring myselfto watch the rest of it.
(39:50):
And I feel for the victim in thiscase too, because she was so badly
battered and bruised and raped.
She could not identify who attacked her.
So her assailantultimately was never found.
She's obviously the victim in thiscase, in addition to these kids,
(40:11):
but she never got justice and thesekids paid a price for something that
they never had anything to do with.
And naive Lee admitted to committing.
Just because they were lookingfor an out in the middle of
the night, trying to get home.
Sonia Meza-Leon (40:28):
That is awful.
I have been meaning to watchthat show or that series.
And, um, I know the subject matteris really tense and sensitive.
So I've been putting it off.
I have to be honest with you.
I'm sure.
It's awesome.
I love her.
I love the director, um,
Brittney Sherman (40:43):
because it is so tense.
I, like I said, it made me so angry.
I couldn't keep watching it.
I needed to get back to it.
I need to do it justice to finishwatching it, but it really pulled at me.
And really, it really got to meand upset me about the treatment
that, that we see on screen.
That is true to
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:03):
life.
What, um, so what happened?
What did, what happened with this guys?
Did they like, let them go.
I mean, what was the.
Brittney Sherman (41:10):
So they, they all served their time, uh,
between six and eight years.
And then in 2002, they, uh,petitioned and succeeded in having
their, their charges vacated.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:24):
Great.
Yes.
That's such
Brittney Sherman (41:27):
bullshit.
Oh, it, it, yeah, it is.
It's just, it's, it's disgusting.
It's a horrible tragedy andmiscarriage of the justice system.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:39):
What's that, I'm sorry for suggesting this topic, by the way,
Brittney Sherman (41:44):
really started off on a downer.
I know.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:46):
I'm so sorry.
I was thinking about it and waslooking at my list and then I'm like,
why don't I just Google, you know,wrongful convictions, the multitude.
I was, I was, I was overwhelmedand I couldn't, I, it would take me
weeks to read through all of them.
Um, the bigger ones, you know, I mean,I think that the exonerations are
going up, but you know, th the need forexoneration shouldn't happen either.
(42:11):
Um, but man, you know, you're, you'regoing to choose the top three next.
It's all you
Brittney Sherman (42:16):
I'll try and be a little more lighthearted.
I w I will say, you know, to your pointabout exonerating, Going off and having
a sentences vacated, you know, a lot ofcredit goes to the innocence project or
projects who dedicates themselves to.
Going out there taking on cases, probono for wrongly convicted felons and
(42:39):
doing everything they can to return totrial, to overturn the cases based on
evidence that was either missed or skippedover or just ignored at the time that.
The convictions happened.
And so they really deserve
a
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:59):
lot of credit.
Yeah, no, they think God, there arepeople out there who are supporting those
causes and you know, it's again, youknow, it's, there's so many of them, so
it's so hard to get their voices heard,but I'm thankful that there's something
in place to, to help these folks.
Um, but the goal would be to reducethis number percentage greatly.
You know, I don't thinkthat 10% is acceptable.
Brittney Sherman (43:20):
It's a terrible amount is not acceptable.
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:24):
Yep.
All right.
Scarlet as well.
There's our, uh, our, ourtop three for this week.
So our top three wrongful convictions.
Brittney Sherman (43:34):
Um, after that, I need to, I need to cool down a little bit.
I know
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:39):
I'm all right.
I know.
All right.
Thanks, Carlitos.
Brittney Sherman (43:44):
Deep killing it.
Nana check out a couple otherpodcasters that support us, and
we want to give them some support.
Sonia Meza-Leon (44:07):
Hey, fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners.
I'm CC the host of a new true crimepodcast, sooner state, true crime as a
born and bred Oki I'll cover cases basedin my wonderful home state of Oklahoma.
The term sooner actually refersto tutors in the land run.
My state's very first true crime.
New episodes are released twice amonth in apple podcasts and most
(44:30):
podcasts ups or visit our website,anchor.fm/crime state to listen now.
So come away with me to my crime stateon the sooner state true crime podcast.
And please stay sooner safe out there.
Y'all.
(44:51):
Hi everyone.
I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice.
When violent acts occur, we tend tothink the predators are monsters.
Surely no human could do suchthings, but if we're honest, only
humans commit malicious crime.
And if you're like me, youwant to know why to find out.
(45:11):
Join me at malice grabber.
You listen to podcasts by.
Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall.
I'm one of the hosts of music city,nine 11, a podcast about the good,
the bad, and the dark side of nine 11.
Dispatching me and my co-hostsare 9 1 1 dispatchers.
With over 60 years of experience, join usas we play 9 1 1 calls and discuss this.
(45:36):
Oh, did I mention thatwe get dark nine 11?
What's your emergency?
(46:15):
you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, andInstagram at music city nine 11, and we're
downloadable on every podcast platform.
Brittney Sherman (46:24):
We want to give a shout out to the pod all
the time podcast network that weScarlet TCP are proud members of
Sonia Meza-Leon (46:34):
other members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative
intuitive, another digital citizen historyof a haunting round and round the podcast.
Real AKA truth podcast, ruck uppodcast, random unnamed podcast.
Surburban.
Three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast.
(46:57):
I think we're doing it podcast.
Brittney Sherman (46:59):
So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check
out these other shows that members ofthe pod all the time podcast network.
It's uh, it's your ladies of Scarletto ever,
but we're not ladies of Scarletto.
We got to start that over.Over.
Sonia Meza-Leon (00:51):
We're so rusty.
Brittney Sherman (00:54):
Uh, all right.
Hey, Scott lottos.
We are your ladies of Scarlet.
So it's been a minute.
We, um, we took some time.
We, we took a little break.
We had, I think, finished 35episodes, but, um, we, we rested up
(01:15):
and now we're, we're coming back.
So welcome back to the routine, Sonia,
Sonia Meza-Leon (01:21):
and I'm so excited about the routine.
I have to say.
Um, well, two things first off.
You know, it's been crazy latelywith the COVID-19 thing and working
from home and Brittany, you know,this too, we've been slammed.
And, um, when I look at my lifeand I kind of think, oh, I need to
really like find my happy place.
(01:42):
And then I, I go and I sit down andI watch a bunch of documentaries
about true crime and murder.
And I'm like, this is my happy place.
Yeah, it's a little disturbing, butit truly is, you know, I've missed it.
I miss talking to you about this stuff.
I mean, we talk all the time, but notabout anything, you know, enjoyable
question, the whatever, like air quotes,but you know, just, I think things
(02:05):
we're passionate about plus, you know,I miss the banter, so I'm so excited.
We are back.
We did take a bit of a break, um,you know, to catch our breaths
so much going on and sometimes.
You were happening in the world thatI felt I just didn't really have.
Um, I D I didn't needa voice at that moment.
I thought that it that's, thesituations are speaking for themselves.
(02:26):
So out of respect to those situations,I thought it was kind of a good
idea for us to take a moment and tolook around and what was happening.
Brittney Sherman (02:32):
Yeah.
I agree.
You know, we, you, youkind of touched on it.
We were slammed with our regular lives.
So, um, I felt like I needed anopportunity to step back for a bit.
I felt like.
It wasn't the re the right time,the best time to be concentrating
on this, but, um, I'm, I'm excited.
(02:55):
Um, I'm really lookingforward to getting back.
I think we're going to have a few changesthat will, um, we, we hope you'd like
that we think will hopefully improve.
We are working on trying to buildour brand a little bit and hopefully
make Scarlet TCP a little bit.
Sonia Meza-Leon (03:15):
That's right.
And, um, I'm excited about tonight becausein this episode, you know, as we normally
do for each each record, you know, werecord a couple of episodes at a time and
we usually start, you know, we developedthis system where we can really get into
our group quickly by just having a, sortof a run and gun, top three conversation.
(03:36):
And, you know, it's just a momentfor us to talk about things, um, you
know, quickly, uh, you know, top line.
That allows us, you know, just toget warmed up without having too much
detail and too much reference material.
And, um, this, I suggested this topicto you and the topic is, I said, you
know, let's talk about our top threeunjust verdicts or what most people
(04:00):
would call wrongful convictions.
Right.
I said that in passing because, you know,I had a lot of things on my mind and I
had been watching some things lately andI, I, one of my favorite documentaries
about some true crime, true crimesituation is, is in particular about that.
And, um, I, then I started lickingmy list and it was really hard.
(04:21):
So my list is actually probably alittle different than you're expecting,
but let's dive right into it.
Let's do our top three wrongful conduct.
Brittney Sherman (04:30):
Well, you can't leave me baited like that.
So this was your topic.
You seem to have some unique thoughts.
So what are you getting.
Sonia Meza-Leon (04:39):
Well, let's go back a little bit because what do
we mean by wrongful convictions?
That's like, I thought it best.
I mean, I wasn't even callingit the wrong thing running.
I was saying unjust verdicts.
Right.
But Bronco convictions, themore appropriate terminology
and used by most, I.
I had a hard time, you know, becausethere's so many, I was really saddened
(05:02):
by the number of, of, of wrongfulconvictions and the people who are
sitting in jail now because of it.
So I, my choice for my topthree is actually just one case.
And, um, Yeah, I know I had a really hardtime trying to figure out who I would put
on my list because all of the wrongfulconvictions in my opinion are terrible.
(05:25):
Right.
Terrible situations.
Like, and I didn't want to disrespectany of those other choices, honestly.
It's not fair for me to say,oh, one's better than the other.
And in this one, I was like, ah, thisis, this is a tough one, but go back
a little bit to wrongful convictions.
Colorado sciences attention toa really, really interesting.
(05:47):
Piece of literature, literaturethat op-ed piece by John Grisham.
Right.
And we know who John Grisham is,world famous attorney writer.
And he did an amazing job of summarizingthe eight reasons for America's
shameful number of wrongful convictions.
And he wrote it for the LA times.
It was written in 2018.
I would suggest you guys reading it.
(06:09):
It's so fascinating becausehe writes like a screenwriter.
So he writes in a way.
Really is compelling.
And so you're entertained by hispeace, but he is so right on with it.
And you know, just a summary of wrongfulconvictions in the United States.
I think that right now, the averagethat's considered, you know, the,
(06:31):
for wrongful convictions versusother convictions, it's 2%, 10%.
I feel
Brittney Sherman (06:36):
like the phone.
Yeah, it's a real lot.
I actually was going to say it'slike 10%, which is way, way too many.
Yeah, no, there, there was a greatquote, I think even by Ronald Reagan
who kind of prided himself on lawand order that pretty much said.
Wrong Cole wrongful conviction isworse than 100 guilty men going free.
(07:02):
You
Sonia Meza-Leon (07:02):
Bennet, but it's rampant.
And, uh, usually, you know, Ihave to say most of the time.
We have revolves around peoplewho don't have the ability, the
financial means or the support inany other way, really, to be able
to, um, you know, defend themselves.
They probably got a, a typical,you know, someone assigned
(07:23):
to their cases and attorney.
I mean, it's a lot easier to, to defendyourself when you have a lot of money
and you can afford good representation.
So that's.
It is, it really does suck, but, um, theJohn Grisham piece is really interesting
and he contributes, uh, You know, the,the number of wrongful convictions to a
couple of things, you know, his, his topin no particular order, he says are bad
(07:46):
police work, prosecutorial misconduct,false confessions, faulty eyewitness
identification, jailhouse snitches, whichI don't know why people would think that
would be really, you know, Uh, okay.
To when you're, when somebody's lifeis on the line to listen to someone
in jail, trying to get a reducedsentence, it's weird, a bad lawyering,
(08:07):
sleeping judges, meaning just lettingthings happen and then junk science.
So it's a really goodarticle if you want to.
Um, guys want to look at it because I justthink John Grisham was really talented.
And when he writes, um, for thepeople who really understands
how to convey that message.
So now that we talked aboutwrongful convictions and what
they are, and we talked about how.
That are currently happening thepercentage anyway, 2% at 10%, but I
(08:30):
can tell you in the past, I'm sure thatthat has been much more, especially
when it comes to people of color or,you know, people who are compromised and
vulnerable, you know, Yeah, definitely.
So sorry.
That was really first.
That was a whole long intro.
So I know I even got lost
Brittney Sherman (08:49):
number three.
Sonia Meza-Leon (08:51):
Well, I want to talk about my number three, because
like I said, my number three isactually all three of my, my wrongful
convictions are from one case.
Um, and that case isthe west Memphis three.
And again, my choice was this,the specific case really.
Disturbing to me in so many ways andreally well-documented and there are
(09:13):
every other wrongful conviction isprobably as bad or worse, but this one
just really hit home for me for a varietyof reasons you had in 1994 or 1993.
Three young boys, eight years oldto, I think they were in second
grade murdered horrendously.
Um, obviously they were tortured.
(09:33):
There was hard to tell about, you know,sexual abuse and things like that.
Um, if you don't know thiscase, I would look into it.
It's called the west Muslim.
It's three weapons west, west, Memphis,Arkansas, um, and you know, sleepy
little town, little country town.
There were these three, secondgraders apparently were out,
(09:56):
you know, doing whatever secondgraders do, riding their bicycles.
And, um, someone snatchedthem, took them to the woods.
Um, hogtied them.
It looked like they raped them.
They mutilated their bodies and thenthey left them in the Creek bed.
So what actually ended up happeningwas one of the boys died by blunt force
(10:16):
trauma and a variety of other things.
And.
The other two boys actually drowned inthe Creek bed, but they too were hogtied.
And, um, there's an interestingdocumentary called paradise lost, um,
about this case because, and it's, I, Iwill warn everyone too, when you watch.
(10:36):
If you watch it, there aregraphic photos of the children
and the way that they were found.
And it's really, reallyhorrifying in this town.
The small little Bible belt townjust didn't know what to do with it.
So cut to, um, three teenagers, um,that somehow or another got roped into,
um, the situation as suspects soundsto me like one of them who didn't know
(11:02):
the other two very well, but knew them.
You've got the, the three, the three, andthis is, these are my three, my three, you
know, essentially are the three guys whowere wrongfully convicted for the crimes.
And I think it's known now thatthey were wrongfully convicted.
I think it's, everybody would agree.
Um, but I'll go through each of them.
And then I also want to talk a littlebit about the, the little boys that were
(11:24):
murdered because it's totally terrible.
Um, but it was really, reallyhard, so I'll stop there.
Um, but so that makes.
I know crazy.
Right?
So that makes my number three on my list.
Now that I gave you some backup by froshorter, a backstory for the west Memphis
three, um, E now we'll talk about mynumber three of the wrongful convictions,
(11:48):
and that is particular to this case.
And his name is Jesse Ms.
Kelly.
He was 17 years old.
Um, uh, he came forward somehow.
With the police either.
They picked him up.
I'm not sure how they got him in involved,but they essentially questioned him.
And got him to confess to thecrimes saying that he and two other
(12:11):
people who are my number two andmy number one, um, worked together
and did this crime committed thecrime against these three boys.
And, um, it was instead, it waspart of like a satanic ritual.
So we'll leave it.
A couple of things about Jessie, Ms.
Kelly.
Um, as, you know, if you, if yougo and you look into the case,
(12:32):
it's, what's interesting is he,he did have a bad reputation.
I think that he had, um,his IQ was compromised.
I think he had a very low IQ, which isone of the reasons they say that he was
easily, um, vulnerable to, you know, beingprompted in questioning a confessions and.
What's crazy about it.
The Jessie, Ms.
Kelly Guy, the one who pretty muchblew the whistle on these other two
(12:54):
kids who were became suspects andthen were ultimately found guilty.
They didn't know each other very well.
So here, you've got a guy saying,Hey, Yeah, me and these two guys,
we went in, we grabbed these two,three boys and we dragged them into
the woods and I held them down.
While these other two guys didthese things to this, these, these
boys, they didn't really know eachother, like out of the blue, these
(13:16):
other two guys get roped into this.
And, you know, you can kind of seean unfold in the documentary, but
I will hold, I reserve my numbertwo are in my number one for later.
But my first is obviously that Jesse Ms.
Kelly kid.
You know, who just needed to getthe hell out of the police station.
He was like, he would havesaid anything at that point.
And he essentially just said, he saidwhat he had heard about the case.
(13:38):
And he, many of the thingsthat he noted were wrong.
So of course, a person at his age,you know, not having representation
in the room, um, of questionable and,you know, IQ who was easily persuaded.
You know, he, he didn'thave much of a chance.
Brittney Sherman (13:53):
No, I.
I am not surprised thatyou picked that topic.
I know it's one that youare passionate about.
It's a frustrating topic foranyone that is familiar with it,
or has watched paradise lost.
In fact, if I'm not mistaken,it's a three-part docu-series.
Over the course of like 20years or something, right?
Sonia Meza-Leon (14:14):
Yeah.
It's um, you can watch there is that.
And then there's also one that itlooked like HBO just compiled together
to make one like 140 minute piece.
But, um, yeah, so.
Once they had all of these threepieces because they had recorded
their shot this over time.
Um, then they, they did compileit at the time they were
releasing them individually.
(14:34):
And there was a lot of peoplebehind, um, the supporting
these guys and it didn't help.
I mean, they spent 18 years in jail.
Uh, I mean for crimes that really, theyweren't, there was no proof that they did.
They didn't.
I mean, other than a couple ofthings, Led this town to sort of
call them out and to ostracize them.
And we'll talk about those, those,those, those reasons later, because
(14:57):
this is where I can kind of reallyassociate myself with these boys.
And it's terrifying to think youcould just get railroaded like that.
Brittney Sherman (15:05):
Okay.
So my number three is not as deep asthat I'll get there, but my number three.
Is the Hollywood 10.
And are you familiar withthe Hollywood 10 Sonya?
No, it is
Sonia Meza-Leon (15:24):
that, that sounds really, it sounds like a bar.
Brittney Sherman (15:29):
It's probably not quite what you're thinking of, but
we're going to, we're going to do alittle history lesson right now after
world war II ended in the late forties.
There was a Senator from my prideand joy, Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy,
who was, uh, went on a very stronganticommunist tear through the country.
(15:54):
And he set his sights on Hollywood.
And there were hundreds, ifnot thousands of Hollywood
executives, writers, producers.
That were targeted as being eitherpotential communist, communist
(16:14):
sympathizers, Stalinists, what have you.
And while communism was not illegalin America, as you can imagine.
Extremely frowned on and, uh,not something that anyone wanted
to be considered a part of.
So in, uh, 1947, he started, uh,he, Joseph McCarthy, uh, started the
(16:43):
house un-American committee or whoact and subpoenaed 79 people, uh,
claiming that they were communists.
Of those 79, ultimately 10 of them wouldcome to stand trial in front of Congress.
Now, again, it wasn't illegal tobe a communist in America, but they
(17:07):
were ultimately blacklisted and theirtrial was not for being a communist,
but for perjuring themselves.
So.
10 Hollywood creatives, uh, politicalideation, unclear, you know, they D they
(17:30):
denied ultimately being true communists.
They, they denied being the Stalinistsor supportive of the Soviet union, but
they were determined to have lied toCongress and perjured themselves, and
were sentenced to eight months in federal.
(17:52):
And that was the star of what manypeople can still hear of and are familiar
with of the Hollywood black list.
Uh, and so the Hollywood blacklist is.
An unofficial list at the time,it was a real list of, uh, at this
time it was a list of communists orcommunist sympathizers who worked
(18:15):
in Hollywood, who were no longerallowed to work in Hollywood.
A blacklisting is still athing where you're doing.
Spread around town and you essentiallyare no longer allowed to unofficially
no longer allowed to work and you'reon hireable, but this was the start
of the black list system throughwhat many consider an unjust trial
(18:41):
in front of Congress of ultimately 10influential creatives that may or may
not have been communists in a frequent.
Sonia Meza-Leon (18:52):
Wow.
So what w what happened?
Brittney Sherman (18:56):
They were, they were found guilty of perjury.
The only crime they legally couldhave been found guilty of for saying
they weren't communists in front ofCongress, even though under oath, even
though they were felt that they werecommunists and so lying to Congress,
and they spent eight months in prison.
Never were able to get theirjobs or regain their jobs back.
(19:19):
Um, there was a, I haven't seen this,but there was for you really old
fashion, Hollywood nerds, kind of likemyself who kind of wants to see this.
Uh, there was a 16 millimeter documentaryshot about it in the fifties, but
then there's also a movie calledone of the Hollywood 10 that focused
(19:40):
specifically on one screen writer.
Who fought the hardest to try and proclaimhis innocence despite being found guilty.
Sonia Meza-Leon (19:48):
And when was
Brittney Sherman (19:49):
this?
Uh, late forties, early fifties,uh, it was throughout what is known
as the who act period, the houseon American activities committee
periods, blood by Joseph McCarthy.
And it was kind of a tirade that hewent on to rid the country of any
potential communist sympathizers.
(20:09):
And he said his focus on Hollywood and the
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:12):
Hollywood system.
My feelings about thatera in another episode.
But, um, there was a lot of shadystuff that happened around that time.
I mean, it was, um, it wasthe wild west in Hollywood.
Brittney Sherman (20:27):
Okay.
Onto your number two, even thoughyou already kind of gave up.
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:31):
I did.
Sorry.
So back to the west Memphis threecase, uh, I sorta Terentino's
this whole process by the way.
So I get it, uh, by the way.
Um,
Brittney Sherman (20:44):
yeah, no, for sure.
Sonia Meza-Leon (20:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so my number two was Jason Baldman,who was another one of the mid west
Memphis three in Arkansas, 1994.
Convicted of, uh, murdering being aparticipant in murdering three second
graders and mutilating their bodies.
And he was sentenced to life.
(21:08):
He as well as the other boys,eventually after 18 years, um, they
did some kind of plea deal on usingthe Alford plea and they were released,
but ultimately ruin their life.
I mean, these guys were in jailfrom being 17 years old, you
know, up until 18 years later.
(21:28):
So their lives had changeddramatically because of this.
What was interesting about Jason, Bob?
Again, the other guy who ratted onthem, the, the confession or the,
the, whatever we're going to callit, the guy who had some problems and
confessed under pressure, he didn'treally, I mean, he didn't know them.
They weren't close friends.
He didn't know Baldwin nor did heknow the other suspect as well.
(21:51):
Um, ballroom was interesting.
He, you know, he, while, while the otherguys, the other two Westminster was
three guys, they did get in some troublesand vandalism, some shoplifting, um,
Baldwin actually got really good grades.
Jason Baldwin was not a dumb kid.
He was a smart kid.
He was a really good artist.
(22:11):
Apparently he was talented.
And, um, I guess he was going to go onto college, to study graphic design.
Um, w when I unveil my number one,which you guys already know if you
know the west Memphis three, we'lltalk a little bit about those things
that they ha they were had in common.
Um, but yeah.
Uh, my, again, my number two, JasonBaldwin, poor kid, 16 years old,
(22:34):
you know, 17 goes to jail for whathe thinks is the rest of his life.
Um, for a crime, he really, reallydidn't commit that appears to be
well-proven that he didn't commit.
So again, you know, a travesty ofjustice and a really sad situation.
Brittney Sherman (22:50):
All right.
My number two is Ruben hurricane Carter.
Oh, I first learned aboutand, uh, became, he became.
Probably pretty famous because of aBob Dylan song called the hurricane.
You know that on ya?
Sonia Meza-Leon (23:11):
I hate Bob Dylan.
I know you do.
That's how I, oh, God,like that was that's.
I don't, there's no comparison the wayyou could ask me that I'm like, I that's
the furthest from my, my, my worldof music and I don't mind folk music.
I just, Bob Dylan's voice just makes me
Brittney Sherman (23:28):
that's crazy.
You know, I had a teacher onetime compared Bob Dylan's.
As the most successful worst singer ofall time, specifically referring to.
Sonia Meza-Leon (23:42):
I'd probably agree with that.
Brittney Sherman (23:44):
Uh, but he's a hell of a songwriter and his, his song.
The hurricane is an eight minuteplus song about Rubin Carter, who
was a middleweight boxer in the1960s in Patterson, New Jersey.
And he happened to beat a neighboring bar.
(24:06):
To where a armed robbery andshooting that led to the death of
a couple of patrons took place.
And he wa the witnesses claimed thatthey saw two, maybe three black men
that were a, the VSA lens and a similartime Carter and two other men were
(24:30):
leaving a neighboring bar and then were.
No, doubtedly trailed by police.
And at this time, Carter was not,he didn't have a clean slate.
He was dishonorably discharged from themilitary for, uh, disciplinary reasons.
He had charges against him for abuse, buthe was cleaning up his act and he was.
(25:00):
Pace to become, to challenge forthe world boxing middleweight
championship of the world.
When he was pulled over after droppinga friend off and arrested, ultimately
charged and was convicted of murder.
Now, the witnesses who claim to see,uh, that the shooters were black.
(25:25):
Did not pin Carter to the scene.
They did not identify him as a suspect.
There was a female witness who calledattention to a different suspect,
but that suspect said he was justrobbing the place and he wasn't
responsible for any of the deaths.
(25:47):
And the, I will, I seriously have to say.
He ultimately, uh, was releasedfrom prison in the nineties, uh,
because the witnesses recanted andthere was evidence to support that
he was never actually at that bar.
And seriously though, like that BobDylan song can sum up this case.
(26:08):
So, well, In eight minutesand then there's a 1999 movie
starring Denzel Washington.
That's about the same casethat I've seen parts of.
And it's pretty good, butit's, it's really a case that
I've always found fascinating,particularly because of that song.
And I seriously would recommend anyone.
Who's got eight minutes to do thedishes or running errands or something.
(26:31):
Just throwing that song.
You will get a reallygreat history lesson.
I
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:35):
think I saw that movie.
Brittney Sherman (26:37):
Yeah.
Did you see it?
I've seen parts of it.
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:42):
I don't know what, I didn't see the whole thing I
Brittney Sherman (26:46):
remember.
I know I do too.
Sonia Meza-Leon (26:49):
All right.
Well, very.
So what I mean, what was the end result?
Did he get convicted?
Did he die?
No.
Brittney Sherman (26:57):
No, he was, he was convicted, but, uh, he's
served like 20 years in prison.
And then.
Was released after witnesses,ultimately recanted.
And there was actually really noevidence to support that he was,
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:12):
oh, well, that's awesome.
Wait to wait 20 freaking years.
Oh yeah.
Brittney Sherman (27:16):
It's terrible.
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:16):
How do you live with yourself even?
I mean, I would doubt myself like day one.
When it comes to someone'slife in my hands.
I mean, that is on the list.
You know what I mean?
I think that S Isen things aredeceiving, you know, when you're in
a moment and you think you're seeingsomething, or you thought you saw
something really clearly, but, youknow, I mean, how well did you see it?
(27:40):
You know, it's just, it's, it's so tough.
All right.
Well, I like that one.
So you've got one left, right?
And your, your number,your, no, one's going to.
Brittney Sherman (27:50):
All right.
So you, uh, you take us away for your
Sonia Meza-Leon (27:53):
number one.
My number one is again, one of thewest Memphis three, um, probably
the most well-known Damien Echols.
He was 18 years oldwhen the crime occurred.
So of course he was, uh, anadult, um, and tried accordingly.
And I think the othertwo boys were as well.
I didn't think that they reallycared at that point, um, because
(28:14):
the crime was so horrendous.
Um, Damien Echols.
Uh, from a poor family, hedidn't attend school very often.
He had a girlfriend, they ran off.
Um, I don't know, they ran andbroke into some trailer and then
equals was charged with burglary.
So he had some, you know, stuff.
I mean, he wasn't like a violent criminal.
(28:34):
He was just a dumb kid.
And I think when you watch paradise lost,you'll see that it's, what's terrifying
to me a bit when I watched that.
It really does appear to me in alot of the video that they shot
at him that he doesn't have.
Um, he doesn't have anyfeelings about the situation.
(28:57):
Um, not that he doesn't havefeelings about his own innocence,
but he, and a lot of people say,well, why would he have remorse?
He didn't do it.
But.
Respect for the situation iswhat I think was a bit missing.
And that really offended people.
Um, when you're talking about a crime thatdoes this, this, let me just see these
little boys and what happened to them.
(29:19):
And, um, it, it was, you know, really,really horrendous and he, um, appeared
in court sometimes to be indifferent.
He.
Uh, I mean, he justdidn't take it seriously.
And I don't know if anyof them took it seriously.
I mean, obviously the guy whoconfessed, he didn't take it
seriously when he was confessing.
He just wanted to get out of there.
(29:40):
But, um, Damien Echols, you know, hewas the perfect Patsy for this crime,
um, in Arkansas at the time, becauseagain, it was such a Bible belt and this
was a kid who, you know, later on, Ithink they figured out that he had some
mental, um, Deficiencies as well yet.
Um, you know, grandiose and persecute,persecutory, delusions, auditory, and
(30:03):
visual hallucinations, disordered thoughtprocesses, substantial lack of insight
and chronic incapacitating mood swings.
Um, you know, he had some stuff going onand, um, he it's just really perplexing,
you know, I think that he thought it was ajoke and I think he later, he even tried.
Say that he thought it was a jokethat didn't take it seriously,
(30:25):
but it's when you watch it,it's, it's kind of offensive.
If you're sitting in a room full ofpeople watching this trial go down
against these, these suspects andthey aren't taking it seriously, or he
doesn't appear to be taking it seriously.
And isn't, isn't at least thoughtfulabout the situation it's, um, you really
dislike him and I'll tell you why.
(30:46):
I have an, uh, a feeling,an association with Damian.
And I don't not necessarily aboutthis, but one of the big reasons as
these three kids were sort of targetedwas because they were the poor kids.
They were the dark kids.
And when I say dark, I mean, theywere, you know, they weren't the
jocks or the popular kids, youknow, they were the outliers, they
(31:08):
listened to heavy metal music.
They wore black clothes,they had black fingernails.
I mean, they were, you know, Thepeople associated them with being goth,
even though Jason Baldwin was a goth.
I mean, he was just a heavy metal kid.
He had a little mullet,like no big damn deal.
Um, I mean, it was reallyweird, but Damien Echols
definitely had played that part.
And then of course they found nonsense,um, you know, at Damien Echols
(31:31):
house, which they thought proved thepoint, they found like the satanic
Bible and some other literature.
And he had said at onepoint that he was in a WCA.
They hadn't read his binder and someof the poems he wrote and yeah, they
were a little dark, but I have to say,you know, what attracted me to this
case in particular was because I reallyfelt like that they were ostracized
(31:51):
from their community because of thosereasons they were considered punks,
um, satanic, you know, this was allabout a set, a satanic ritual, um, So
unfair, these guys are kids, right.
And they're being persecuted likethat just for being, you know,
not part of the popular group.
And I felt like that when I was young,you know, I definitely, my crowd was
(32:13):
a little more, uh, well, definitelymore on the outlier side of things.
And, you know, we, Hey,we wore black w who cares.
Like, I don't know if thatwas like a big deal for us.
It wasn't like that defined us, but we,you know, We definitely didn't have that.
You know, I mean, when you're a teenagerand you're not part of the popular group,
you're anything, if you're anything butthe popular group, you're probably not
(32:36):
enjoying yourself that much, unless you'recompletely oblivious because you always,
those, the people who are the popularkids make sure, you know, you're not.
And that's where I feel forthese guys, because it's so true.
They, they love it.
They enjoy it.
It's like, you know who, I mean, ifthey didn't bother you, it wouldn't
be one thing, but I know how it is.
(32:56):
They do bother you.
You know, they make, you know,all the time that you are not part
of the group, you do not fit in.
Um, and it it's crappy.
So, you know, this happened in 19.
Three, I think the, the murders andthey were convicted in 1994, that
would, that's not that many yearsafter I graduated from high school.
So it was probably around that sametime, but it was, you know, I, I thought
(33:18):
that really was a bummer for those guys.
And so that's why there was a lot ofsupport behind these guys, um, in,
especially in the heavy metal community.
Like I think Metallica allowedthem to use like their music
for free and the paradigm.
Documentary.
I mean, there was a big following,like I had heard about west
Memphis three for a long time.
I mean, you know, because you'vegot, you know, once the misfits get
(33:40):
together and there's enough of them,then the misfits are the majority
and then shit kind of goes down.
And that's what happened wasthat everybody who had felt like.
An ever, you know, kind of bandedtogether and said, no, we can't let this
happen to these guys because this isa circumstance that we could have been
in, in the right, at the right time.
But, um, that is my number.
Number one was Damien Echols and man,some terrible, these guys look in,
(34:02):
these guys were in jail for eight.
Years, 18 years from being teenagers.
So they grew up in jail, which ishorrifying and terrible things happened
to them while they were in jail.
I mean, Damien Nichols, he wasraped, you know, they were, it
was there, there, you know, whathappens to child killers in jail?
You know, child molesters in jail, notgood things, you know, I mean, they're.
(34:24):
They're in particular, they're very muchtargeted, you know, so, and these guys
were teenagers, they were young, so Ireally doubt they could defend themselves.
But, um, again, take alook at paradise loss.
It's a really interesting,um, documentary for sure.
And you can look at it in the piecesor you can look at it as a whole.
There's some crazy charactersin that show as well.
It's, uh, you know, I kept thinking,Melissa, some of us was in Tennessee
(34:47):
and Memphis is in Tennessee,but this is actually Arkansas,
which is a different flavor.
Uh, folk.
So take a look, but that's my topthree, Brittany, what's your number one.
Okay.
Brittney Sherman (34:57):
So my number one, you could call number one, you
could call number one through five.
You could even call number onethrough 10 because my number
one is the central park five.
Sonia Meza-Leon (35:12):
That's a good one.
That is a good
Brittney Sherman (35:14):
one.
The central park five are fiveteenage boys who were a accused
of accused and convicted.
I should say of assault, robbery, riot.
Attempted murder, rape and sexual abuse.
(35:38):
And they ranged in the ages of 14 to 16.
And this is a, an event that took placeon April 19th, 1989 in central park,
New York, between 9:00 PM to 10:00PM on a woman named Tricia Mellie.
(35:59):
And.
Uh, these young boys who, um, werejust kinda hanging out were really,
I mean, they're truly innocent kids.
Truly, um, so much so thatone of the boys, the youngest
(36:21):
one still hadn't hit puberty.
So his, uh, the crime of rapewas clearly not possible for him.
These boys were taken infor questioning that night.
They were held without their parents.
They were promised things like.
(36:44):
Food drinks, the ability to go homein order in exchange for confession.
So these immature young kids of horse.
Which we all know, having seenplenty of documentaries of true
crime series, listening to enoughpodcasts like this know that complying
(37:07):
with, without a parent or legalrepresentative is the worst possible
situation for someone to be put in.
And of course they, uh, theirconfessions were held up, taken
to prison and are taken to courtand they were sentenced to prison.
So.
The reason I say five, or thereare up to 10 because that same
(37:32):
night in central park, there wereother events that took place.
And there were actually five otherteenagers that were indicted for.
Uh, assault and attacks on otherpersons, but it's these five boys in
particular that are referred to asthe central park five that are, uh,
(37:57):
they were the ones that were held andconvicted of rape and sexual assault.
And, um, four were ultimately convicted.
One was, uh, convicted on alesser charge, but it was 16.
So he was tried as an adult.
(38:19):
All five of them were charged orconvicted and sentenced to up to
15 years in prison and ultimatelyserved between seven and eight years.
They were natural.
Uh, found not guilty.
And, um, their convictionswere vacated in 2002.
(38:43):
It was an extremely, uh, uproarious event.
I was too young to remember theevent, but I can look back and read
articles and watch footage of it.
And there was, there was a, um, Uh, acry out for justice against them because
(39:08):
there was so much evidence that wasincorrectly mounted against them, that
they never had a shot at a fair trial.
And it's, uh, there's a Netflixseries and I, I want to call it
a great Netflix series by AvaDuVernay called when they see us.
(39:28):
But I hold on calling.
Great.
Not because it isn't, but because Ihad such a hard time watching it, I
literally watched the first episodeand the treatment of these innocent
young, naive boys disturbed me so much.
I could not bring myselfto watch the rest of it.
(39:50):
And I feel for the victim in thiscase too, because she was so badly
battered and bruised and raped.
She could not identify who attacked her.
So her assailantultimately was never found.
She's obviously the victim in thiscase, in addition to these kids,
(40:11):
but she never got justice and thesekids paid a price for something that
they never had anything to do with.
And naive Lee admitted to committing.
Just because they were lookingfor an out in the middle of
the night, trying to get home.
Sonia Meza-Leon (40:28):
That is awful.
I have been meaning to watchthat show or that series.
And, um, I know the subject matteris really tense and sensitive.
So I've been putting it off.
I have to be honest with you.
I'm sure.
It's awesome.
I love her.
I love the director, um,
Brittney Sherman (40:43):
because it is so tense.
I, like I said, it made me so angry.
I couldn't keep watching it.
I needed to get back to it.
I need to do it justice to finishwatching it, but it really pulled at me.
And really, it really got to meand upset me about the treatment
that, that we see on screen.
That is true to
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:03):
life.
What, um, so what happened?
What did, what happened with this guys?
Did they like, let them go.
I mean, what was the.
Brittney Sherman (41:10):
So they, they all served their time, uh,
between six and eight years.
And then in 2002, they, uh,petitioned and succeeded in having
their, their charges vacated.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:24):
Great.
Yes.
That's such
Brittney Sherman (41:27):
bullshit.
Oh, it, it, yeah, it is.
It's just, it's, it's disgusting.
It's a horrible tragedy andmiscarriage of the justice system.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:39):
What's that, I'm sorry for suggesting this topic, by the way,
Brittney Sherman (41:44):
really started off on a downer.
I know.
Sonia Meza-Leon (41:46):
I'm so sorry.
I was thinking about it and waslooking at my list and then I'm like,
why don't I just Google, you know,wrongful convictions, the multitude.
I was, I was, I was overwhelmedand I couldn't, I, it would take me
weeks to read through all of them.
Um, the bigger ones, you know, I mean,I think that the exonerations are
going up, but you know, th the need forexoneration shouldn't happen either.
(42:11):
Um, but man, you know, you're, you'regoing to choose the top three next.
It's all you
Brittney Sherman (42:16):
I'll try and be a little more lighthearted.
I w I will say, you know, to your pointabout exonerating, Going off and having
a sentences vacated, you know, a lot ofcredit goes to the innocence project or
projects who dedicates themselves to.
Going out there taking on cases, probono for wrongly convicted felons and
(42:39):
doing everything they can to return totrial, to overturn the cases based on
evidence that was either missed or skippedover or just ignored at the time that.
The convictions happened.
And so they really deserve
a
Sonia Meza-Leon (42:59):
lot of credit.
Yeah, no, they think God, there arepeople out there who are supporting those
causes and you know, it's again, youknow, it's, there's so many of them, so
it's so hard to get their voices heard,but I'm thankful that there's something
in place to, to help these folks.
Um, but the goal would be to reducethis number percentage greatly.
You know, I don't thinkthat 10% is acceptable.
Brittney Sherman (43:20):
It's a terrible amount is not acceptable.
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:24):
Yep.
All right.
Scarlet as well.
There's our, uh, our, ourtop three for this week.
So our top three wrongful convictions.
Brittney Sherman (43:34):
Um, after that, I need to, I need to cool down a little bit.
I know
Sonia Meza-Leon (43:39):
I'm all right.
I know.
All right.
Thanks, Carlitos.
Brittney Sherman (43:44):
Deep killing it.
Nana check out a couple otherpodcasters that support us, and
we want to give them some support.
Sonia Meza-Leon (44:07):
Hey, fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners.
I'm CC the host of a new true crimepodcast, sooner state, true crime as a
born and bred Oki I'll cover cases basedin my wonderful home state of Oklahoma.
The term sooner actually refersto tutors in the land run.
My state's very first true crime.
New episodes are released twice amonth in apple podcasts and most
(44:30):
podcasts ups or visit our website,anchor.fm/crime state to listen now.
So come away with me to my crime stateon the sooner state true crime podcast.
And please stay sooner safe out there.
Y'all.
(44:51):
Hi everyone.
I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice.
When violent acts occur, we tend tothink the predators are monsters.
Surely no human could do suchthings, but if we're honest, only
humans commit malicious crime.
And if you're like me, youwant to know why to find out.
(45:11):
Join me at malice grabber.
You listen to podcasts by.
Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall.
I'm one of the hosts of music city,nine 11, a podcast about the good,
the bad, and the dark side of nine 11.
Dispatching me and my co-hostsare 9 1 1 dispatchers.
With over 60 years of experience, join usas we play 9 1 1 calls and discuss this.
(45:36):
Oh, did I mention thatwe get dark nine 11?
What's your emergency?
(46:15):
you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, andInstagram at music city nine 11, and we're
downloadable on every podcast platform.
Brittney Sherman (46:24):
We want to give a shout out to the pod all
the time podcast network that weScarlet TCP are proud members of
Sonia Meza-Leon (46:34):
other members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative
intuitive, another digital citizen historyof a haunting round and round the podcast.
Real AKA truth podcast, ruck uppodcast, random unnamed podcast.
Surburban.
Three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast.
(46:57):
I think we're doing it podcast.
Brittney Sherman (46:59):
So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check
out these other shows that members ofthe pod all the time podcast network.
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