December 2, 2025 • 36 mins
Jesse B, a wrestling referee, joins to discuss his journey into the world of wrestling, sharing insights into his training and experiences. The conversation highlights memorable moments and mentors in indie wrestling, as well as Jesse's transition into refereeing and his career aspirations. The importance of physical fitness for referees is emphasized, alongside Jesse's high-profile refereeing experiences and dream matches. He shares his favorite matches and his personal wrestling Mount Rushmore. The episode concludes with Jesse discussing upcoming events, offering advice for aspiring wrestlers and referees, and debunking common myths about wrestling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
What's up, everyone?
Welcome to a very exciting episode of Beyondthe Bell.
Today, instead of having a restaurant, we havea very interesting person here.
Somebody from a different side still in thering.
I wanna introduce you guys to a very greatreferee.
This is Jesse B.
Hey.
What's going on, guys?
Thanks for having me on.
(00:22):
It's great to have you on here, man.
So how long have you been doing this?
I've been training since March.
So not a not a terrible long time, but abouteight eight months or so.
Seven, eight, nine months.
Around there.
You're fairly fresh here in the industry.
I love it.
Mhmm.
And you already have over a 100 matchesofficiated in that six months that you've been
(00:46):
doing this.
That is awesome.
Yep.
Getting there.
Oh, yeah.
So what made you wanna do this?
Oh, man.
I mean, growing up as a fan, I mean, I've beena fan since, I don't know, since I was five,
maybe six, and I just never really got awayfrom it.
You know?
Like, a lot of people that have, like, thathigh school stage where they kinda get away
(01:11):
from it a little bit.
They get into sports.
They don't really have time to sit home andwatch Monday Night Raw or SmackDown or
whatever's on, and I just never had that, like,low period.
I was just I've always been a fan from when Iwas a kid, so now I'm still doing it.
But where it really got me wanting to do it doit was I went to a couple, like, big shows,
(01:33):
like Monday Night Raw, SmackDown.
I used to go to a lot of the WWE live eventswhen those were around.
And, just because me and my mom, we didn't havea ton of money.
So but those are a lot more affordable to goto, and you can still see some of your
favorite, wrestlers.
And I was like, that's great and all, but,like, I always hear about the indie scene.
(01:53):
I always hear about the indies and, like, howmuch how much fun the indies are, but, like,
it's really kinda hard to get into it at first.
You know?
Like, you gotta, like, kinda know somebody whoknows somebody or, like, find an indie
wrestler.
And then once that happens, then it opens upall of these promotions that they work for.
And then you go down those rabbit holes, andyou can find different talent that are, you
(02:15):
know, part of that roster of those differentpromotions.
And, I found one here in Atlanta.
They're called the disruptor wrestling.
They they usually do about six months at atime.
So they'll, like, do shows for six months, andthen they'll take a few months off, and they'll
come back for six months.
And, I took a buddy with me.
He was not a wrestling fan at all, but he waslike, hey, man.
(02:38):
Like, we're good friends.
I'd love to come check it out.
Like, he's not judgmental about it or whatever.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
Me and him went to the show.
It was a blast.
Got front row seats, and I felt like a kid inthe candy store.
I was like, man, it's so cool having wrestlerswalk right past me and, like, give like, one of
the guy's name is Rico Gonzalez.
He, he gave me he he had, like, a titlenecklace.
(03:00):
It was, a big chain necklace with, like, atitle on it.
And he's like, hey, man.
Hold this for me, and I'll I'll get it back foryou after the match.
And I was like, of course.
Hell yeah.
And we started taking pictures with it.
It was super cool.
It was super cool.
And it it's just the indie shows are so muchmore, there's so much more involvement and
engagement, and the the heckling is alwaysreally funny.
(03:20):
And, you know, I've been to a couple bad showshere and there, you know, but, like, most of
the time, it's always just kind of a familyexperience where, you know, the people have
been coming to the shows for years, and they'rejust supporting their favorite local talent.
But, then I kinda started my own podcast for alittle bit where I would interview indie
(03:41):
wrestlers.
But, honestly, I was kinda using it as a way toget in.
Right?
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna do on-site interviews.
I'm gonna go to wherever they're at.
I'm gonna bring cameras, mics, all that stuff.
And then now I'm in the back, and now I'mtalking to promoters, and now I'm talking to
referees.
I'm talking to just kind of I I kinda wanted toget a lay of the land because you don't wanna
(04:02):
really just Google wrestling school and pickthe first one with no, like, knowledge.
So I kinda started doing my research.
There's a few there's the night the NightmareFactory here, which is Cody Rhodes training
school that's ran by a few people here inAtlanta.
There's, w w a four, in Atlanta.
(04:25):
There's PCW.
That's where I train at.
That one's in Conyers, which isn't too far awayfrom Georgia or Atlanta.
It's about forty minutes or so.
I think there's a couple more, but those are,like, the big ones, here in Georgia.
So I I got to get to know another referee.
He goes by Daryl Hall.
He's known as grandpa on the Indies.
(04:46):
He's kinda like the godfather of the Georgiarefs.
You know?
Kinda like your old guy, your mentor type ofdeal.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
He was awesome.
I got to know him, and I was like, hey, man.
Like, I don't know about wrestling, but I'dlike to, like, do refereeing or get trained or
just kind of see if I like it.
You know?
Let me get in the ring and figure it out.
And he was like, yeah.
(05:07):
I train on, you know, these days at thisschool.
Come check it out.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
So I paid the monthly fee, went in, took thefirst bump, and been doing it ever since.
And I just I love it.
It's awesome.
That is great, man.
I love that.
Like, you know, you started as a fan.
You were, you know, you went and you made sureto check it first, and now you're here.
(05:28):
And, I mean, clearly, you love it because, Imean, you're doing you're still here, still
doing it six months later.
And it seems like you're doing a lot of whatI'm doing because I'm kinda trying to get my
foot in the door, still in the ring, but notmuch as a referee.
So we're kinda doing the same thing with thepodcast.
(05:50):
Yeah.
It's a great way to get in.
I mean, because most talent, they're alwaysopen to doing interviews.
I mean, some of them will care about your size,but most of them don't.
Like, those are the really cool ones you get toknow where they're like, hey.
Is this your first ever episode?
Sure.
Yeah.
I'll meet you at this convention, and we'lltalk at whatever.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
Then just I but as we're walking, I'm askingthem questions about their life and and their
(06:14):
goals and how they got started to get thatkinda that personal foundation first.
And then once the interview starts, it's likeit's easy.
It's just like talking to a friend at thatpoint.
Exactly.
And that brings me to my next question.
What what is the goal with this?
Is the goal to keep working the Indies, or doyou wanna get out and, like, get into the big
leagues being the referee?
(06:35):
Well, my goal is to get to the big leagues.
I love the indie scene.
I'm already planning on doing shows in otherstates.
But, if you're not in it to, like, get to the eor get to TNA or get to AEW or even, like, DPW
or, I don't know, like, hog or any of thosepromotions, like, I don't know.
(06:58):
Like like, a lot like, there's some people thatdo this who are cool with just kinda staying
local, and they're just kinda hanging out withtheir buddies on the weekends, which is cool.
I like that aspect of it.
But at the same time, I mean, this is a dream.
You know?
Like, I'm chasing it.
I'm getting to know as many people as I can.
I'm getting to know the right people.
I'm getting I'm staying my I'm staying awayfrom muddy business.
(07:20):
I'm just, you know, being myself and makingsure those first impressions are as good as
they can be.
And, yeah.
I mean, in my opinion, if you're not shootingfor if you're not shooting to the top, then
what are you doing?
You know?
That's that that's my opinion on it.
I I'm I'm on a health journey.
I've been losing weight, hit the gym all thetime because, like, at the end of the day, it's
(07:43):
not sound mean, but, like, none of thesepromotions don't wanna see, like, fat refs.
You know what I'm saying?
Like
Yeah.
All the WWE refs, they're all in shape.
They all look great.
Like, they gotta be in just as good of a shapeas the wrestlers are.
So, like, when I saw first video myself in thering, I was, like, two sixty, and I was just
like, man, this is this is hard to watch.
(08:03):
You know?
For me, I was watching myself.
I was like, no, man.
I can't.
So now I just got under two thirty, so I'mreally been working on myself.
And, I feel like it'll also boost my confidenceand, you know, just it's just a personal thing.
I'm sure some people are okay with it.
But, like, you look at the upper echelon creamof the crop, if you will, you're not seeing a
(08:26):
lot of 300 pound, 400 pound refs.
You know?
No.
Not at all.
So then have you ever refed any of the matchesthat have any of the, like, bigger names then
that went back to The Indies at all?
Or
Trying to think.
My biggest match I had so far is I haven't beendoing it a whole whole lot.
(08:52):
I did Dragon Con, and, Teddy Long introducedthe the women's world heavyweight championship.
It was new to the promotion.
Jimmy Wang Yang did a run-in at one pointbecause it was his daughter that was in the
match.
So I'd say that's probably my biggest one sofar.
I know I might be reffing a match with, I don'tknow if you know Cruel.
(09:18):
He's the, he he just won the MLW heavyweightchampionship.
But I know I've heard the name.
I haven't had a chance to check him out yet.
Okay.
Yeah.
You should definitely check him out.
He's awesome.
He's got, like, a kinda like a Jason Voorheeskind of thing going on, and he's huge.
He's a big dude, but he's also super talented.
(09:38):
He just won the MLW heavyweight championship,so I'm super proud of him.
But
Yeah.
That's awesome.
I mean, definitely someone that I'm gonna haveto be paying attention to now if they're
holding the belt.
100%.
So then, you know, you've worked obviouslymatch that have a huge name on it, like Teddy
(10:02):
Long and things attached to it even just as anannouncer and stuff.
Mhmm.
Are there any people that you want to referee amatch that they're in?
Oh, man.
Like, if I'm thinking of, like, local talent,like like, some of the Bullet Club guys live
(10:22):
here in Georgia, and they still do local showslike, Doc Gallows, Carl Anderson.
I actually ran in I've ran in I've ran into DocGallows, like, two or three times just in
public randomly.
Like, I'm working.
And Yeah.
I'm like, oh, shit.
There's Doc Gallo.
I'm like, what's up, man?
What's going on?
I actually just about his book.
Booked both of them.
(10:43):
That'd be yeah.
That'd be sick.
That'd be awesome.
AJ Styles trained here, in Georgia.
He was actually just at a Georgia any promotionlast week that I couldn't make, which was a
bummer.
But
Oh, wow.
He took he took pictures with a lot of thelocal talent there.
So that was cool.
Cody Rhodes, he comes down to do he he was justat the Nightmare Factory last week.
(11:11):
So that I mean, there's big names here.
I don't if you know Jack Jameson.
He's in Ring of Honor.
I ref one of his matches recently.
You ref two of his matches?
I did.
Yeah.
I was at One Fall Wrestling.
Yep.
He's awesome.
So, like, where is, like, your dream to end upthen refereeing?
(11:35):
Is it WWE?
Is it TNA?
Is it AEW?
Where's the one you would like to be at the endof the day when it's all said and
done?
I mean, I grew up a WWE kid.
So yeah.
I'd say WWE, but, honestly, I'd be happy withgetting I grew up with TNA too.
Like, I I remember first tuning into TNA andseeing, like, Sharkboy and Samoa Joe, AJ
(12:00):
Styles, those guys.
I was like, what?
And, like, you know, Christopher Daniels and,like, that whole period.
So, like, I'd love to do TNA, AEW, and, like Iwas saying, even, like, the the bigger indie
promotions like House of Glory or, I'd love todo New Japan.
That'd be sick.
(12:20):
Any big Mexican promotions?
Because I speak Spanish too so I can, like, dosomething over there.
That that'd be fun.
I mean, I'm okay with going wherever, but,like, the angle is is for sure, like, WWE.
You know?
Yeah.
100%.
I mean, the fact is, obviously, you're willingto travel if you can.
I mean, New Japan and, like, Mexicanpromotions, you said, just anywhere.
(12:43):
You
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
You got you clearly have a passion for this,and you clearly enjoy what you do.
And that's that's why I love to see you in thisindustry.
So I guess, do you have, like, any a match thatyou would say is, like, your favorite that
you've done?
Oh, man.
(13:05):
Let's see.
This past week, last Friday, I did a, so theschool that I I train at, we do three shows a
month.
So we do second, third, and fourth Friday ofevery month.
So a lot of times, I'll ref those shows to getmy reps in.
(13:25):
I'm filming it.
I'm filming an interview.
I don't know what Terrence is doing.
I'm in the middle of filming an interview.
I'm filming an interview, grandpa.
I'm interviewing someone right now.
On this draft over here.
Okay.
Well, Terrence must be sleeping.
He's moving the way he looks.
Doing all this.
I'll put me on the feet well in here.
Take him out.
Take him out.
(13:47):
No.
It's fine.
Yeah.
It happens.
It is what it is.
Alright.
What was it?
Okay.
So, yeah, so I did a I did a show for, PlatinumChampionship Wrestling.
It was a well, I guess it was, so CCDL, whichis like, it's like a lucha promotion, but it's
under the same umbrella as our school.
(14:10):
And, it was it was like our it was like ourmania.
It was called.
So this was the second, second year of.
And, I did a match with, there's a NathanielVanderbilt and RC Daniels.
They're just they're those are some guys I'vetrained with.
(14:31):
So, like, you know, most people outside ofGeorgia wouldn't know who they are, but they're
very talented.
And that was probably my favorite match wasAtlanta Street Fight.
So no rules, weapons allowed, and it was abrutal, brutal, brutal match.
RC Daniel's mom was in the crowd, like,freaking out and crying, and it was Well, it
(14:52):
was kinda
like a death match in a way.
Sort of.
Yeah.
Just minus all the light tubes and the barbedwire.
It was it was it was a crazy it was a crazymatch.
There was a spot where, Nathaniel Vanderbilt itwas like a like a guardrail that he, like,
propped up on the ring in the floor, and he,like, power bombed him through it.
(15:14):
And it was like, man, they were, like, in myear, like, can you please tell us he's okay?
Like, is he okay is he alive?
Because, like, the hard cam angle was here.
And the way he looked like he hit they thoughthe, like, clipped his head on the ring or
something.
And, but, no, they they did it perfectly.
That was it was it was a it was just it wasn'tjust a great match because of all the crazy
(15:34):
spots, but the story was great.
I've seen RC Daniels from, like, a while nowand just seeing him grow as a performer has
been really great.
You know, he's learning his his baby facestuff, and, he's learning his character, and
he's getting better with, like, his emotionsand his and his his, his face work has been
(15:55):
getting a lot better too because, like, we weused to call him, we used to say he had, like
he just had, like, a resting, like, I don'tcare face.
Like, he would close somebody and just be like,you know, like, is it like, you know, but he's
been getting a lot better with it.
But that would I would say that's my favoritematch just because of, like, I personally know
these guys.
(16:15):
I trained with them, and just seeing them,like, have match the night was awesome.
I would say outside of that, I'm trying tothink.
Dragon Con was amazing in front of, like, two,three thousand people.
That was a huge show.
Know, that sounds amazing.
It was awesome.
(16:36):
It was awesome performing in front of that manypeople.
Just the whole thing, like, Teddy Long andJimmy Wang Yang, a guy I grew up with with both
of them.
And, it was it was it was, like because, like,my goal when I started training in March was to
ref at DragonCon.
And since I know the promoter, I told him aboutthis goal.
(16:57):
And he's like, you know what, man?
If you if you get some shows under your belt,I'll give you a match or two.
Like, just see how you do in your training andif you like
And you got the match.
And I got it.
Yeah.
Match or two, you got the match.
The, you know, the women's champion.
Yeah.
He was like, I wanted to give you the match themost Gaga, like, with the most, like, crazy
stuff you had to remember and all the run insand crazy stuff with the crowd.
(17:19):
And, actually, I did another match that nightthat was, it's the owner of Dragon Con.
He, he has this character called Scott eCrampton, and he's, like, this evil owner who's
rich, and he's always, it's so fun.
He comes out with, like, a, like, a dressjacket that's, like, blinged out with lights.
Like, kinda think, like, Chris Jericho's oldjacket.
(17:41):
You know?
Oh god.
He comes in with, like, Nikes with, like,lights on the bottom and shit.
I'm just like, oh my god.
This guy.
But he had a match against Michael Mosley, andthe match started okay.
So so Scott Crampton, he's like a, out of shapedad bod kinda white guy.
(18:02):
Right?
Yeah.
And he starts off the match.
He he has his lucha mask, and he's like, I'mFinnish.
So in my Finnish heritage, you all know weinvented lucha libre, so I'm gonna wear this
mask.
And so the match starts.
He instantly rolls out the ring, goes under thering, and then this big buff black dude comes
out with wearing the same mask.
(18:24):
And I have to be like, oh, there you are.
Come on.
Get back in here.
What are
you try and just play it off like you
guys know.
And then they do
That's probably gotta be the funniest matchyou've ever worked.
Oh my it was.
And then they did it again with a huge whitedude wearing a mask.
So they didn't even just stop at one switchout.
They switched out multiple times throughout thematch.
(18:45):
Oh my god.
It was so funny.
It was so funny.
Also, it wasn't my match, but we had a tag teammatch where they did a Pokemon gimmick.
And they, like, called out different Pokemonsthat come out and assist in the match.
It was cool.
It was cool.
There was, like, a guy in a big, like, oh,what's the name?
I'm blanking out.
I don't know.
(19:05):
But he came out of Jigglypuff as one of them,and he started singing Jigglypuff.
Everybody in the ring fell asleep, andeverybody in the audience was falling asleep.
He was using that to try and pin someone out.
Dragon Con's always fun.
We had Superman come out, fucking do a do a doa dolphin dive on everybody.
Dragon Con's a lot of fun.
(19:26):
It's it's a once a year show, but, like, I wishI wish we did more.
But
It's definitely one that I will have to try andmake it to one of these years and see.
Do you got to?
We always do it on Thursdays.
It's it's always the first day at DragonCon, soit's, it's a big show, man.
And if you don't get there early I mean, we hadso many people outside who couldn't make it in
(19:48):
because we didn't have any more seats, youknow, which sucks, but it is what it is.
I mean, that's how it goes sometimes.
Mhmm.
Especially when it's a big show like that andyou you're doing a lot of fun things that not a
lot of other places are doing, people want tobe there.
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(20:09):
So then I guess my next question I mean, Iguess it feels kinda like a basic question, but
I love asking it.
As a wrestling fan, who would you say is onyour route Mount Rushmore?
You know, your top four.
It's always a tough one.
Man.
I would say since I grew up in the ruthlessaggression era, right, I understand there were
(20:31):
people before that, but, like, this might notrush more.
Alright?
I don't care.
Yeah.
So I would put, Cena, Jeff Hardy, Mysterio, andI got one more spot.
Let's see.
One more spot.
(20:51):
I'm thinking from that era.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm thinking that, like, you're
I'm thinking, like, Orin or Edge or Batista orone of those Undertaker.
I mean, Undertaker was the man during thattime.
Yes.
I'll I'll put Undertaker on there.
So Taker, Hardy, Sina, and I and Mysterio.
(21:14):
That's my personal.
Those those are my favorites.
I had posters of them growing up.
I mean
Oh, yeah.
I know, dude.
I mean, I used to have, like, three Mysterioshirts.
Yeah.
Used to wear them every week to school.
Three days of week, I'd be wearing RayMysterio.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
That that's that's my Mount Rushmore, though.
(21:37):
Yeah.
And that's honestly, that's the probably themost solid one from the ruthless aggression
era.
And, I mean, when you're talking about thatera, obviously, you can't not name John Cena
because he was the one who coined it.
Yep.
Mhmm.
100%.
So, yes, do you have anything upcoming thatyou're excited to be working on then?
(21:58):
Any upcoming ones you're at that you're excitedfor?
Oh, man.
I did two shows last night.
Two?
See, I got I got Georgia classic this upcomingweekend, World of Lucha, Deep South.
I'm fully booked for next month.
So, I mean, I'm always excited for any show Iget to be on.
(22:20):
One fall is always a fun one, because one fall,they use a lot of, like, Ring of Honor talent.
AEW guys will come down and do like, they justhad their big show, their mania, I guess.
And, like, Darby Allen made an appearance.
Jay Lethal had a I think Jay Lethal has a matchat the show I'm doing on the fifth, I believe.
(22:44):
Billy Gunn's always there.
So it's a good like, it's a at QT Marshall's,he kinda runs it.
So he's usually there, and just kinda gettingto be around those kinda people.
And, like, it's like a blend of, like, thattalent and local Georgia talent, and it just
kinda becomes a mishmash of just great talent.
(23:06):
You know?
So being around that kind of atmosphere, andjust getting to know people and be a positive
person and just, you know, talking and thenlearning how to stop talking when you need to
stop talking.
You know?
So Exactly.
But, yeah, I mean, all the promotions aregreat, though.
I mean, there's Kraken Pro.
Kraken Pro has been doing really well.
(23:27):
That's down in, Tifton, Georgia.
It's about a two and a half hour drive fromwhere I live at, which worth it in my opinion.
It's always fun.
Yeah.
I mean, I always tell people it's worth it ifyou can, especially with where I live.
I mean, just two hours from me, we have MidwestAll Pro.
That was started by Eugene back in '21.
Okay.
(23:48):
Wow.
I have to check that out.
Midwest All Pro.
You might be seeing me there soon.
You never know.
Yeah.
I'm looking I'm thinking about going there.
They got, like, a week long training camp tosee if you like it during the summer.
You know?
Oh, that's cool.
Is it is it is there, like, a fee for it?
Or
Yeah.
It's like I think it was, like, $200 orsomething to go take some bumps and see if I
(24:09):
enjoy it.
Man, man.
Man, it might be worth it, man.
You never know.
It could, it could spark something in you, youknow, like it did with me.
It was it was crazy.
I have there's a
guy who's a mom before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a guy here.
He's a he's, like, a local legend.
He was in, like, NWA Anarchy back in, like,early two thousands, and he trained with AJ
(24:32):
Styles.
And he
trained with AJ.
Slim j.
Really?
Yep.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
He's he's a great dude, man.
He's one of the nicest guys I ever met, and, hehe he's kinda one of the guys I always pick his
brain about stuff.
Like, my first day of training, I was like,alright.
(24:52):
What am I doing?
I'm freaking out.
What do do before I bump?
What do do?
What what what am I doing?
What am I doing?
And he was he was like, hey, man.
Just blow all the air out of your lungs.
This is gonna come out anyway.
You know?
Like, right before you bump, just and take it.
You know?
And that helped so much because, like, I'veseen people bump who are new, and they just
knock all the wind out of their selves, andit's just you know?
(25:15):
And then we don't see them again because theydidn't like it.
So Yeah.
So as a referee, have you ever had to take amove while refereeing a match?
Not not a move necessarily.
I mean, I've been missile dropkicks.
I've been clotheslined.
I've I've been regular just bumped.
(25:36):
I've been elbowed in the face.
I mean, it's just most of the time, I'm justgetting hit.
I'm not getting picked up and, like, thrownaround or anything.
But
So you're not doing all the crazy stuff yet?
No.
Not not yet.
I'd love to stunner somebody, though, or hit itwith an RKO or something like that.
That'd be
You'd like to do something crazy.
Just come out and be the referee that fightsback one match.
(25:56):
Just Yeah, dude.
Yeah, man.
I know I know there's some there's some plansin the pipeline of me possibly getting a match
at some point.
So it's a I
would love to see that.
I mean, I think you would definitely do greatin a match.
Oh, yeah.
If you check out my Instagram, you'll see someof my, my conditioning drills that we do and me
(26:19):
hitting insults and landing back flips andstuff.
You
know?
So I did my research today.
That's good.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah.
And you definitely I mean, a lot of what youdo, it's it's tough.
Well, you can tell.
Like, it's hard training, and that's why I'malways like, people say it's not a sport, but,
(26:42):
like, it's just a sport with the added touch ofentertainment to it.
Yeah.
It's it's a 100% a sport.
Like, the what pisses me off all the time is,like like, we did a show at, there's a big
amphitheater called the Lakewood Amphitheaterin Atlanta.
And, the Suicide Boys were on tour, so theywere doing the show.
(27:05):
And then we were set up in the same area rightnext to where the stage was.
So we had a ring set up.
So once the the concert ended, then they allstarted coming down the stairs, and there we
are, free wrestling, ready to go.
Right?
And, man, it was just a bunch of high drunk,like, late teens, early twenties.
(27:25):
And, I was standing there in the ring, makingsure everything was safe, checking the boards,
and all that kind of stuff.
And, I can't tell you how many people werelike, alright.
Let let me let me get in there.
Hey.
I'll I'll do a bad flip.
Hey, man.
I'm not gonna get hurt.
It's all fake.
It doesn't hurt.
And I'll I'll just say, hey.
Come here.
Come here.
I was like, smack the ring for me.
Just hit it as as hard as you can with yourhand.
(27:49):
And all of them are
like one time, and ever since then, I learned.
Yeah.
They're all just like, oh my god.
Ow.
That hurts.
I'm like, yeah.
Like, what Yeah.
You land even slightly wrong.
You're gonna hurt a lot more than your handdoes.
Yes.
The wrestlers know how to fall safely.
I mean, they're basically, like, parkourpeople.
(28:09):
They're literally they're literally there'sthey're stuntmen.
They're literal stuntmen.
Like, you take like, a lot of your trading isthe same thing stuntmen go through
to
be able to learn how to not kill yourself.
Yeah.
I mean, you just tuck your head and make sureyou land flat and try and spread that impact as
(28:29):
much as you can so it doesn't hurt as much whenyou hit it.
And, I mean, there's there's a lot that goesinto it.
And then there's just a lot of things to thinkabout.
But once once you get to a certain point, thenit's just kinda second nature at that point.
But, like, I don't know.
It all it always bugs me when people think it'sjust the easiest thing in the world.
Oh, yeah.
Too because, like, I mean, you literally, likeI mean, what was it?
(28:53):
Ten years ago, Ray Mysterio accidentally killedsomeone in the ring down in Mexico.
Wasn't that, like, ten, sixteen years ago,Ariel?
Like Mhmm.
Yep.
But people still say it's fake.
After that was worldwide, everybody had seenthe news.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
It's, yeah.
He just hit him in the wrong spot, and I thinkhe, like, hit a part of his neck just right
where it just instant.
(29:14):
Just dead.
Yep.
You know?
I mean, there's people who break their necks,who get injured all the time, who you know,
it's just
Oh, yeah.
I was supposed to interview somebody.
He's out on injury right now because he tookbroke his arm during a match.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
I've had broken ankles, slipped ribs, that kindof stuff.
Not me, but, like, I've witnessed him in thering, and I've had to call the ex once or
(29:38):
twice.
So it's it's just it's a sport, and they'reputting their lives and their body on the line
for your entertainment.
So, like, appreciate it.
Yeah.
And I always hate the disrespect of saying thatit's not real because it very much is.
But
Yeah.
Like, fake is not the right word.
It's choreographed.
It's not fake.
It's choreographed.
(30:00):
Exactly.
It's like, would you call would you call a jetlike, the things Jackie Chan does in his movies
without lines fake?
I don't see people saying that.
Yeah.
I'm like, hey.
You like the Avengers?
You know, that's all fake.
It's like Right.
And, you know, is actually fake.
Their stunts are actually fake and safelytethered.
It's a lot different.
(30:20):
It's a lot safer than wrestling.
It's a lot faker.
Oh, yeah.
For sure.
So when it comes to, like, having a match, whatis your dream match type?
You know?
Like, what would you want?
Like, your basic one on one or, like, a tagteam, triple threat, Ironman?
No, man.
It's a cage match for me.
(30:41):
I wanna do a cage match so bad.
Are we talking the cell cage or the steel cage?
Both.
I mean, both.
In the indie in the indies, it's usually asteel cage, but, like, hell in a cell cell or,
like, a elimination chamber would be prettysick being in there.
I'm just thinking on an indie level.
Yeah.
(31:01):
A cage match would be amazing or, like, aladder match would be fun.
I just did my first hardcore match last night,so that was that was fun.
So when it comes to, like, your first time,like, actually working a match match, you would
want it to be you against someone inside thecage.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, honestly, that's the perfect way tostart if you ask me.
(31:24):
Dude, hell yes.
Especially, like, with how I flip and stuff.
I mean, I I would be flipping all over theplace.
Oh, absolutely.
Well, I think I'm actually about out ofquestions here.
Is there anything you wanna tell everyonebefore we go?
(31:45):
I would just say with some advice, just, beopen minded, be a sponge, and absorb
information from any and everybody.
Don't be picky about link.
Like like, I trained with grandpa, and Itrained with, Richard Bousnego, and I trained
with, Brian and Trey and Bill and, like, allthese local, like, trainers here.
(32:08):
And it's like, it's great.
I love their information.
And because of them, I'm where I'm atcurrently.
But, like, at the same time, I'm also going toother promotions, and I'm learning from vets.
And I'm and even people who have been who justgot in it like me, I'm learning from them.
Or, and I just kinda take a little bit ofeverything and just make it my own.
(32:30):
And I'm just I'm not just, like, copy andpaste.
This guy told me exactly how he does it, so I'ma do it exactly like how he does.
You know?
To me, that doesn't make sense.
Exactly.
You know, a big thing with what you saidthere's information does lie anywhere at any
level.
You can be just starting out, and somebodynewer than you might have like, some
(32:50):
information you had never heard before.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And even, like, small stuff, like, a lot oflocal referees, like, I always learn from we
have Paul, Espinal.
We have Daryl Hall.
We have Mike Fulalove.
He's on DPW as well.
He does the DPW shows, but he also doescommentary at, at our school, like, once a
(33:13):
month, or he'll ref at our school for once ortwice a month.
He's very seasoned, and, I mean, he he doesshows all over The United States.
I mean, he's in Chicago.
He does stuff.
He went to Vegas, Romania, and he was doing abunch of local shows there.
And, you know, he's a really he's an awesomedude.
Mike Full of Love or Mike Full Black.
He is awesome.
(33:33):
Like, great great dude.
I've gotta work with him a couple times.
But, like, most of my questions are alwayslike, hey.
How do you connect your, like, radio, like,connector, like, through like, oh, you you cut
a hole in your back pocket so you put oh, okay.
Cool.
Or you like to go in the front, or do youattach in the back?
What what what do you have in your ref bag?
Okay.
Sunscreen.
Okay.
That's smart for outdoor shows.
(33:54):
Gloves, safety glasses, med kits.
Even like like, I just worked with Paul Espinalfor the first time on Sunday, and he has, like,
what's it called?
It's like a like a tool that has, like, aknife, a screwdriver.
It has, like, everything just in case.
Army knife?
Yeah.
Like, Swiss army knife.
(34:14):
He's like, you never know.
You might need it.
And I'm like, alright.
I guess I'm adding the Swiss army knife to mybag.
It's just it's just there's so many just littlesmall things.
Like, even, like, they showed it on Friday.
Like, I what I used to do, now I stoppedbecause I I I learned, but he was like, hey.
When you go to and I I used to do this.
(34:34):
I go to.
He was like, Kyle, looks like you're callingfor the bell.
So, like, you might wanna be careful when youdo that at some promotions.
You might go two, and then they might ring thebell thinking you're telling them to ring the
bell.
So now you now I just go two or two, and I juststay still.
I stay clear.
You know?
So it's just it's small stuff.
Positioning in the ring, communicating timecues, or, hey.
(34:58):
Hard cams to your left.
Hard cams to your left.
Hard cams to your right.
Hey.
Like, slow down, speed up, or, you know,whatever.
You know?
It's it's a it's a lot of information, but I'mstill learning kinda how to, like, communicate
certain things.
I got to meet Robert Gibson on Sunday.
That was cool.
Rock and roll express, baby.
Oh, yeah, man.
I mean, hell.
(35:19):
Robert Gibson.
That is amazing.
He was doing a seminar, and he was showing, hewas showing the wrestlers how to how to how to
take certain bumps and how to transition intodifferent moves.
And he was wearing, like, the WWE, performancecenter shirt and pants.
And I was like, this is pretty cool.
This guy's pretty he's made it.
He's been there.
You know?
Anybody you can learn from is that guy.
(35:41):
Well, yeah.
Absolutely.
And, I mean, definitely a great source ofinformation from what I've heard from different
people in the indie scene and from people whohave just met him that he's just an all around
great person to be in the same room as.
Yeah.
He was he was great.
He was super, like, open and giving and, like,he didn't come off like, yeah.
Like, don't talk to me.
(36:01):
Like, he was very open.
Hey, man.
How's it going?
Nice to meet you.
Like, he was very cordial, and it was it wasnice getting to meet him.
But, yeah, I don't think I got anything else.
Just wanted to give that that advice of just beopen minded and listen from all angles and all
people that are in the business.
You know?
Yeah.
Well, thank you for coming on.
(36:22):
It was great to be able to talk to you and beable to give you your first interview, and I'm
glad I got to learn about, like, refereeing andthings like that.
I mean, I haven't known much about it.
Have a great day.
Alright.
Thank you, sir.
What's up, everyone?
Welcome to a very exciting episode of Beyondthe Bell.
Today, instead of having a restaurant, we havea very interesting person here.
Somebody from a different side still in thering.
I wanna introduce you guys to a very greatreferee.
This is Jesse B.
Hey.
What's going on, guys?
Thanks for having me on.
(00:22):
It's great to have you on here, man.
So how long have you been doing this?
I've been training since March.
So not a not a terrible long time, but abouteight eight months or so.
Seven, eight, nine months.
Around there.
You're fairly fresh here in the industry.
I love it.
Mhmm.
And you already have over a 100 matchesofficiated in that six months that you've been
(00:46):
doing this.
That is awesome.
Yep.
Getting there.
Oh, yeah.
So what made you wanna do this?
Oh, man.
I mean, growing up as a fan, I mean, I've beena fan since, I don't know, since I was five,
maybe six, and I just never really got awayfrom it.
You know?
Like, a lot of people that have, like, thathigh school stage where they kinda get away
(01:11):
from it a little bit.
They get into sports.
They don't really have time to sit home andwatch Monday Night Raw or SmackDown or
whatever's on, and I just never had that, like,low period.
I was just I've always been a fan from when Iwas a kid, so now I'm still doing it.
But where it really got me wanting to do it doit was I went to a couple, like, big shows,
(01:33):
like Monday Night Raw, SmackDown.
I used to go to a lot of the WWE live eventswhen those were around.
And, just because me and my mom, we didn't havea ton of money.
So but those are a lot more affordable to goto, and you can still see some of your
favorite, wrestlers.
And I was like, that's great and all, but,like, I always hear about the indie scene.
(01:53):
I always hear about the indies and, like, howmuch how much fun the indies are, but, like,
it's really kinda hard to get into it at first.
You know?
Like, you gotta, like, kinda know somebody whoknows somebody or, like, find an indie
wrestler.
And then once that happens, then it opens upall of these promotions that they work for.
And then you go down those rabbit holes, andyou can find different talent that are, you
(02:15):
know, part of that roster of those differentpromotions.
And, I found one here in Atlanta.
They're called the disruptor wrestling.
They they usually do about six months at atime.
So they'll, like, do shows for six months, andthen they'll take a few months off, and they'll
come back for six months.
And, I took a buddy with me.
He was not a wrestling fan at all, but he waslike, hey, man.
(02:38):
Like, we're good friends.
I'd love to come check it out.
Like, he's not judgmental about it or whatever.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
Me and him went to the show.
It was a blast.
Got front row seats, and I felt like a kid inthe candy store.
I was like, man, it's so cool having wrestlerswalk right past me and, like, give like, one of
the guy's name is Rico Gonzalez.
He, he gave me he he had, like, a titlenecklace.
(03:00):
It was, a big chain necklace with, like, atitle on it.
And he's like, hey, man.
Hold this for me, and I'll I'll get it back foryou after the match.
And I was like, of course.
Hell yeah.
And we started taking pictures with it.
It was super cool.
It was super cool.
And it it's just the indie shows are so muchmore, there's so much more involvement and
engagement, and the the heckling is alwaysreally funny.
(03:20):
And, you know, I've been to a couple bad showshere and there, you know, but, like, most of
the time, it's always just kind of a familyexperience where, you know, the people have
been coming to the shows for years, and they'rejust supporting their favorite local talent.
But, then I kinda started my own podcast for alittle bit where I would interview indie
(03:41):
wrestlers.
But, honestly, I was kinda using it as a way toget in.
Right?
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna do on-site interviews.
I'm gonna go to wherever they're at.
I'm gonna bring cameras, mics, all that stuff.
And then now I'm in the back, and now I'mtalking to promoters, and now I'm talking to
referees.
I'm talking to just kind of I I kinda wanted toget a lay of the land because you don't wanna
(04:02):
really just Google wrestling school and pickthe first one with no, like, knowledge.
So I kinda started doing my research.
There's a few there's the night the NightmareFactory here, which is Cody Rhodes training
school that's ran by a few people here inAtlanta.
There's, w w a four, in Atlanta.
(04:25):
There's PCW.
That's where I train at.
That one's in Conyers, which isn't too far awayfrom Georgia or Atlanta.
It's about forty minutes or so.
I think there's a couple more, but those are,like, the big ones, here in Georgia.
So I I got to get to know another referee.
He goes by Daryl Hall.
He's known as grandpa on the Indies.
(04:46):
He's kinda like the godfather of the Georgiarefs.
You know?
Kinda like your old guy, your mentor type ofdeal.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
He was awesome.
I got to know him, and I was like, hey, man.
Like, I don't know about wrestling, but I'dlike to, like, do refereeing or get trained or
just kind of see if I like it.
You know?
Let me get in the ring and figure it out.
And he was like, yeah.
(05:07):
I train on, you know, these days at thisschool.
Come check it out.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
So I paid the monthly fee, went in, took thefirst bump, and been doing it ever since.
And I just I love it.
It's awesome.
That is great, man.
I love that.
Like, you know, you started as a fan.
You were, you know, you went and you made sureto check it first, and now you're here.
(05:28):
And, I mean, clearly, you love it because, Imean, you're doing you're still here, still
doing it six months later.
And it seems like you're doing a lot of whatI'm doing because I'm kinda trying to get my
foot in the door, still in the ring, but notmuch as a referee.
So we're kinda doing the same thing with thepodcast.
(05:50):
Yeah.
It's a great way to get in.
I mean, because most talent, they're alwaysopen to doing interviews.
I mean, some of them will care about your size,but most of them don't.
Like, those are the really cool ones you get toknow where they're like, hey.
Is this your first ever episode?
Sure.
Yeah.
I'll meet you at this convention, and we'lltalk at whatever.
And I was like, alright.
Cool.
Then just I but as we're walking, I'm askingthem questions about their life and and their
(06:14):
goals and how they got started to get thatkinda that personal foundation first.
And then once the interview starts, it's likeit's easy.
It's just like talking to a friend at thatpoint.
Exactly.
And that brings me to my next question.
What what is the goal with this?
Is the goal to keep working the Indies, or doyou wanna get out and, like, get into the big
leagues being the referee?
(06:35):
Well, my goal is to get to the big leagues.
I love the indie scene.
I'm already planning on doing shows in otherstates.
But, if you're not in it to, like, get to the eor get to TNA or get to AEW or even, like, DPW
or, I don't know, like, hog or any of thosepromotions, like, I don't know.
(06:58):
Like like, a lot like, there's some people thatdo this who are cool with just kinda staying
local, and they're just kinda hanging out withtheir buddies on the weekends, which is cool.
I like that aspect of it.
But at the same time, I mean, this is a dream.
You know?
Like, I'm chasing it.
I'm getting to know as many people as I can.
I'm getting to know the right people.
I'm getting I'm staying my I'm staying awayfrom muddy business.
(07:20):
I'm just, you know, being myself and makingsure those first impressions are as good as
they can be.
And, yeah.
I mean, in my opinion, if you're not shootingfor if you're not shooting to the top, then
what are you doing?
You know?
That's that that's my opinion on it.
I I'm I'm on a health journey.
I've been losing weight, hit the gym all thetime because, like, at the end of the day, it's
(07:43):
not sound mean, but, like, none of thesepromotions don't wanna see, like, fat refs.
You know what I'm saying?
Like
Yeah.
All the WWE refs, they're all in shape.
They all look great.
Like, they gotta be in just as good of a shapeas the wrestlers are.
So, like, when I saw first video myself in thering, I was, like, two sixty, and I was just
like, man, this is this is hard to watch.
(08:03):
You know?
For me, I was watching myself.
I was like, no, man.
I can't.
So now I just got under two thirty, so I'mreally been working on myself.
And, I feel like it'll also boost my confidenceand, you know, just it's just a personal thing.
I'm sure some people are okay with it.
But, like, you look at the upper echelon creamof the crop, if you will, you're not seeing a
(08:26):
lot of 300 pound, 400 pound refs.
You know?
No.
Not at all.
So then have you ever refed any of the matchesthat have any of the, like, bigger names then
that went back to The Indies at all?
Or
Trying to think.
My biggest match I had so far is I haven't beendoing it a whole whole lot.
(08:52):
I did Dragon Con, and, Teddy Long introducedthe the women's world heavyweight championship.
It was new to the promotion.
Jimmy Wang Yang did a run-in at one pointbecause it was his daughter that was in the
match.
So I'd say that's probably my biggest one sofar.
I know I might be reffing a match with, I don'tknow if you know Cruel.
(09:18):
He's the, he he just won the MLW heavyweightchampionship.
But I know I've heard the name.
I haven't had a chance to check him out yet.
Okay.
Yeah.
You should definitely check him out.
He's awesome.
He's got, like, a kinda like a Jason Voorheeskind of thing going on, and he's huge.
He's a big dude, but he's also super talented.
(09:38):
He just won the MLW heavyweight championship,so I'm super proud of him.
But
Yeah.
That's awesome.
I mean, definitely someone that I'm gonna haveto be paying attention to now if they're
holding the belt.
100%.
So then, you know, you've worked obviouslymatch that have a huge name on it, like Teddy
(10:02):
Long and things attached to it even just as anannouncer and stuff.
Mhmm.
Are there any people that you want to referee amatch that they're in?
Oh, man.
Like, if I'm thinking of, like, local talent,like like, some of the Bullet Club guys live
(10:22):
here in Georgia, and they still do local showslike, Doc Gallows, Carl Anderson.
I actually ran in I've ran in I've ran into DocGallows, like, two or three times just in
public randomly.
Like, I'm working.
And Yeah.
I'm like, oh, shit.
There's Doc Gallo.
I'm like, what's up, man?
What's going on?
I actually just about his book.
Booked both of them.
(10:43):
That'd be yeah.
That'd be sick.
That'd be awesome.
AJ Styles trained here, in Georgia.
He was actually just at a Georgia any promotionlast week that I couldn't make, which was a
bummer.
But
Oh, wow.
He took he took pictures with a lot of thelocal talent there.
So that was cool.
Cody Rhodes, he comes down to do he he was justat the Nightmare Factory last week.
(11:11):
So that I mean, there's big names here.
I don't if you know Jack Jameson.
He's in Ring of Honor.
I ref one of his matches recently.
You ref two of his matches?
I did.
Yeah.
I was at One Fall Wrestling.
Yep.
He's awesome.
So, like, where is, like, your dream to end upthen refereeing?
(11:35):
Is it WWE?
Is it TNA?
Is it AEW?
Where's the one you would like to be at the endof the day when it's all said and
done?
I mean, I grew up a WWE kid.
So yeah.
I'd say WWE, but, honestly, I'd be happy withgetting I grew up with TNA too.
Like, I I remember first tuning into TNA andseeing, like, Sharkboy and Samoa Joe, AJ
(12:00):
Styles, those guys.
I was like, what?
And, like, you know, Christopher Daniels and,like, that whole period.
So, like, I'd love to do TNA, AEW, and, like Iwas saying, even, like, the the bigger indie
promotions like House of Glory or, I'd love todo New Japan.
That'd be sick.
(12:20):
Any big Mexican promotions?
Because I speak Spanish too so I can, like, dosomething over there.
That that'd be fun.
I mean, I'm okay with going wherever, but,like, the angle is is for sure, like, WWE.
You know?
Yeah.
100%.
I mean, the fact is, obviously, you're willingto travel if you can.
I mean, New Japan and, like, Mexicanpromotions, you said, just anywhere.
(12:43):
You
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
You got you clearly have a passion for this,and you clearly enjoy what you do.
And that's that's why I love to see you in thisindustry.
So I guess, do you have, like, any a match thatyou would say is, like, your favorite that
you've done?
Oh, man.
(13:05):
Let's see.
This past week, last Friday, I did a, so theschool that I I train at, we do three shows a
month.
So we do second, third, and fourth Friday ofevery month.
So a lot of times, I'll ref those shows to getmy reps in.
(13:25):
I'm filming it.
I'm filming an interview.
I don't know what Terrence is doing.
I'm in the middle of filming an interview.
I'm filming an interview, grandpa.
I'm interviewing someone right now.
On this draft over here.
Okay.
Well, Terrence must be sleeping.
He's moving the way he looks.
Doing all this.
I'll put me on the feet well in here.
Take him out.
Take him out.
(13:47):
No.
It's fine.
Yeah.
It happens.
It is what it is.
Alright.
What was it?
Okay.
So, yeah, so I did a I did a show for, PlatinumChampionship Wrestling.
It was a well, I guess it was, so CCDL, whichis like, it's like a lucha promotion, but it's
under the same umbrella as our school.
(14:10):
And, it was it was like our it was like ourmania.
It was called.
So this was the second, second year of.
And, I did a match with, there's a NathanielVanderbilt and RC Daniels.
They're just they're those are some guys I'vetrained with.
(14:31):
So, like, you know, most people outside ofGeorgia wouldn't know who they are, but they're
very talented.
And that was probably my favorite match wasAtlanta Street Fight.
So no rules, weapons allowed, and it was abrutal, brutal, brutal match.
RC Daniel's mom was in the crowd, like,freaking out and crying, and it was Well, it
(14:52):
was kinda
like a death match in a way.
Sort of.
Yeah.
Just minus all the light tubes and the barbedwire.
It was it was it was a crazy it was a crazymatch.
There was a spot where, Nathaniel Vanderbilt itwas like a like a guardrail that he, like,
propped up on the ring in the floor, and he,like, power bombed him through it.
(15:14):
And it was like, man, they were, like, in myear, like, can you please tell us he's okay?
Like, is he okay is he alive?
Because, like, the hard cam angle was here.
And the way he looked like he hit they thoughthe, like, clipped his head on the ring or
something.
And, but, no, they they did it perfectly.
That was it was it was a it was just it wasn'tjust a great match because of all the crazy
(15:34):
spots, but the story was great.
I've seen RC Daniels from, like, a while nowand just seeing him grow as a performer has
been really great.
You know, he's learning his his baby facestuff, and, he's learning his character, and
he's getting better with, like, his emotionsand his and his his, his face work has been
(15:55):
getting a lot better too because, like, we weused to call him, we used to say he had, like
he just had, like, a resting, like, I don'tcare face.
Like, he would close somebody and just be like,you know, like, is it like, you know, but he's
been getting a lot better with it.
But that would I would say that's my favoritematch just because of, like, I personally know
these guys.
(16:15):
I trained with them, and just seeing them,like, have match the night was awesome.
I would say outside of that, I'm trying tothink.
Dragon Con was amazing in front of, like, two,three thousand people.
That was a huge show.
Know, that sounds amazing.
It was awesome.
(16:36):
It was awesome performing in front of that manypeople.
Just the whole thing, like, Teddy Long andJimmy Wang Yang, a guy I grew up with with both
of them.
And, it was it was it was, like because, like,my goal when I started training in March was to
ref at DragonCon.
And since I know the promoter, I told him aboutthis goal.
(16:57):
And he's like, you know what, man?
If you if you get some shows under your belt,I'll give you a match or two.
Like, just see how you do in your training andif you like
And you got the match.
And I got it.
Yeah.
Match or two, you got the match.
The, you know, the women's champion.
Yeah.
He was like, I wanted to give you the match themost Gaga, like, with the most, like, crazy
stuff you had to remember and all the run insand crazy stuff with the crowd.
(17:19):
And, actually, I did another match that nightthat was, it's the owner of Dragon Con.
He, he has this character called Scott eCrampton, and he's, like, this evil owner who's
rich, and he's always, it's so fun.
He comes out with, like, a, like, a dressjacket that's, like, blinged out with lights.
Like, kinda think, like, Chris Jericho's oldjacket.
(17:41):
You know?
Oh god.
He comes in with, like, Nikes with, like,lights on the bottom and shit.
I'm just like, oh my god.
This guy.
But he had a match against Michael Mosley, andthe match started okay.
So so Scott Crampton, he's like a, out of shapedad bod kinda white guy.
(18:02):
Right?
Yeah.
And he starts off the match.
He he has his lucha mask, and he's like, I'mFinnish.
So in my Finnish heritage, you all know weinvented lucha libre, so I'm gonna wear this
mask.
And so the match starts.
He instantly rolls out the ring, goes under thering, and then this big buff black dude comes
out with wearing the same mask.
(18:24):
And I have to be like, oh, there you are.
Come on.
Get back in here.
What are
you try and just play it off like you
guys know.
And then they do
That's probably gotta be the funniest matchyou've ever worked.
Oh my it was.
And then they did it again with a huge whitedude wearing a mask.
So they didn't even just stop at one switchout.
They switched out multiple times throughout thematch.
(18:45):
Oh my god.
It was so funny.
It was so funny.
Also, it wasn't my match, but we had a tag teammatch where they did a Pokemon gimmick.
And they, like, called out different Pokemonsthat come out and assist in the match.
It was cool.
It was cool.
There was, like, a guy in a big, like, oh,what's the name?
I'm blanking out.
I don't know.
(19:05):
But he came out of Jigglypuff as one of them,and he started singing Jigglypuff.
Everybody in the ring fell asleep, andeverybody in the audience was falling asleep.
He was using that to try and pin someone out.
Dragon Con's always fun.
We had Superman come out, fucking do a do a doa dolphin dive on everybody.
Dragon Con's a lot of fun.
(19:26):
It's it's a once a year show, but, like, I wishI wish we did more.
But
It's definitely one that I will have to try andmake it to one of these years and see.
Do you got to?
We always do it on Thursdays.
It's it's always the first day at DragonCon, soit's, it's a big show, man.
And if you don't get there early I mean, we hadso many people outside who couldn't make it in
(19:48):
because we didn't have any more seats, youknow, which sucks, but it is what it is.
I mean, that's how it goes sometimes.
Mhmm.
Especially when it's a big show like that andyou you're doing a lot of fun things that not a
lot of other places are doing, people want tobe there.
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
(20:09):
So then I guess my next question I mean, Iguess it feels kinda like a basic question, but
I love asking it.
As a wrestling fan, who would you say is onyour route Mount Rushmore?
You know, your top four.
It's always a tough one.
Man.
I would say since I grew up in the ruthlessaggression era, right, I understand there were
(20:31):
people before that, but, like, this might notrush more.
Alright?
I don't care.
Yeah.
So I would put, Cena, Jeff Hardy, Mysterio, andI got one more spot.
Let's see.
One more spot.
(20:51):
I'm thinking from that era.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm thinking that, like, you're
I'm thinking, like, Orin or Edge or Batista orone of those Undertaker.
I mean, Undertaker was the man during thattime.
Yes.
I'll I'll put Undertaker on there.
So Taker, Hardy, Sina, and I and Mysterio.
(21:14):
That's my personal.
Those those are my favorites.
I had posters of them growing up.
I mean
Oh, yeah.
I know, dude.
I mean, I used to have, like, three Mysterioshirts.
Yeah.
Used to wear them every week to school.
Three days of week, I'd be wearing RayMysterio.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
That that's that's my Mount Rushmore, though.
(21:37):
Yeah.
And that's honestly, that's the probably themost solid one from the ruthless aggression
era.
And, I mean, when you're talking about thatera, obviously, you can't not name John Cena
because he was the one who coined it.
Yep.
Mhmm.
100%.
So, yes, do you have anything upcoming thatyou're excited to be working on then?
(21:58):
Any upcoming ones you're at that you're excitedfor?
Oh, man.
I did two shows last night.
Two?
See, I got I got Georgia classic this upcomingweekend, World of Lucha, Deep South.
I'm fully booked for next month.
So, I mean, I'm always excited for any show Iget to be on.
(22:20):
One fall is always a fun one, because one fall,they use a lot of, like, Ring of Honor talent.
AEW guys will come down and do like, they justhad their big show, their mania, I guess.
And, like, Darby Allen made an appearance.
Jay Lethal had a I think Jay Lethal has a matchat the show I'm doing on the fifth, I believe.
(22:44):
Billy Gunn's always there.
So it's a good like, it's a at QT Marshall's,he kinda runs it.
So he's usually there, and just kinda gettingto be around those kinda people.
And, like, it's like a blend of, like, thattalent and local Georgia talent, and it just
kinda becomes a mishmash of just great talent.
(23:06):
You know?
So being around that kind of atmosphere, andjust getting to know people and be a positive
person and just, you know, talking and thenlearning how to stop talking when you need to
stop talking.
You know?
So Exactly.
But, yeah, I mean, all the promotions aregreat, though.
I mean, there's Kraken Pro.
Kraken Pro has been doing really well.
(23:27):
That's down in, Tifton, Georgia.
It's about a two and a half hour drive fromwhere I live at, which worth it in my opinion.
It's always fun.
Yeah.
I mean, I always tell people it's worth it ifyou can, especially with where I live.
I mean, just two hours from me, we have MidwestAll Pro.
That was started by Eugene back in '21.
Okay.
(23:48):
Wow.
I have to check that out.
Midwest All Pro.
You might be seeing me there soon.
You never know.
Yeah.
I'm looking I'm thinking about going there.
They got, like, a week long training camp tosee if you like it during the summer.
You know?
Oh, that's cool.
Is it is it is there, like, a fee for it?
Or
Yeah.
It's like I think it was, like, $200 orsomething to go take some bumps and see if I
(24:09):
enjoy it.
Man, man.
Man, it might be worth it, man.
You never know.
It could, it could spark something in you, youknow, like it did with me.
It was it was crazy.
I have there's a
guy who's a mom before.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a guy here.
He's a he's, like, a local legend.
He was in, like, NWA Anarchy back in, like,early two thousands, and he trained with AJ
(24:32):
Styles.
And he
trained with AJ.
Slim j.
Really?
Yep.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
He's he's a great dude, man.
He's one of the nicest guys I ever met, and, hehe he's kinda one of the guys I always pick his
brain about stuff.
Like, my first day of training, I was like,alright.
(24:52):
What am I doing?
I'm freaking out.
What do do before I bump?
What do do?
What what what am I doing?
What am I doing?
And he was he was like, hey, man.
Just blow all the air out of your lungs.
This is gonna come out anyway.
You know?
Like, right before you bump, just and take it.
You know?
And that helped so much because, like, I'veseen people bump who are new, and they just
knock all the wind out of their selves, andit's just you know?
(25:15):
And then we don't see them again because theydidn't like it.
So Yeah.
So as a referee, have you ever had to take amove while refereeing a match?
Not not a move necessarily.
I mean, I've been missile dropkicks.
I've been clotheslined.
I've I've been regular just bumped.
(25:36):
I've been elbowed in the face.
I mean, it's just most of the time, I'm justgetting hit.
I'm not getting picked up and, like, thrownaround or anything.
But
So you're not doing all the crazy stuff yet?
No.
Not not yet.
I'd love to stunner somebody, though, or hit itwith an RKO or something like that.
That'd be
You'd like to do something crazy.
Just come out and be the referee that fightsback one match.
(25:56):
Just Yeah, dude.
Yeah, man.
I know I know there's some there's some plansin the pipeline of me possibly getting a match
at some point.
So it's a I
would love to see that.
I mean, I think you would definitely do greatin a match.
Oh, yeah.
If you check out my Instagram, you'll see someof my, my conditioning drills that we do and me
(26:19):
hitting insults and landing back flips andstuff.
You
know?
So I did my research today.
That's good.
That's good.
That's good.
Yeah.
And you definitely I mean, a lot of what youdo, it's it's tough.
Well, you can tell.
Like, it's hard training, and that's why I'malways like, people say it's not a sport, but,
(26:42):
like, it's just a sport with the added touch ofentertainment to it.
Yeah.
It's it's a 100% a sport.
Like, the what pisses me off all the time is,like like, we did a show at, there's a big
amphitheater called the Lakewood Amphitheaterin Atlanta.
And, the Suicide Boys were on tour, so theywere doing the show.
(27:05):
And then we were set up in the same area rightnext to where the stage was.
So we had a ring set up.
So once the the concert ended, then they allstarted coming down the stairs, and there we
are, free wrestling, ready to go.
Right?
And, man, it was just a bunch of high drunk,like, late teens, early twenties.
(27:25):
And, I was standing there in the ring, makingsure everything was safe, checking the boards,
and all that kind of stuff.
And, I can't tell you how many people werelike, alright.
Let let me let me get in there.
Hey.
I'll I'll do a bad flip.
Hey, man.
I'm not gonna get hurt.
It's all fake.
It doesn't hurt.
And I'll I'll just say, hey.
Come here.
Come here.
I was like, smack the ring for me.
Just hit it as as hard as you can with yourhand.
(27:49):
And all of them are
like one time, and ever since then, I learned.
Yeah.
They're all just like, oh my god.
Ow.
That hurts.
I'm like, yeah.
Like, what Yeah.
You land even slightly wrong.
You're gonna hurt a lot more than your handdoes.
Yes.
The wrestlers know how to fall safely.
I mean, they're basically, like, parkourpeople.
(28:09):
They're literally they're literally there'sthey're stuntmen.
They're literal stuntmen.
Like, you take like, a lot of your trading isthe same thing stuntmen go through
to
be able to learn how to not kill yourself.
Yeah.
I mean, you just tuck your head and make sureyou land flat and try and spread that impact as
(28:29):
much as you can so it doesn't hurt as much whenyou hit it.
And, I mean, there's there's a lot that goesinto it.
And then there's just a lot of things to thinkabout.
But once once you get to a certain point, thenit's just kinda second nature at that point.
But, like, I don't know.
It all it always bugs me when people think it'sjust the easiest thing in the world.
Oh, yeah.
Too because, like, I mean, you literally, likeI mean, what was it?
(28:53):
Ten years ago, Ray Mysterio accidentally killedsomeone in the ring down in Mexico.
Wasn't that, like, ten, sixteen years ago,Ariel?
Like Mhmm.
Yep.
But people still say it's fake.
After that was worldwide, everybody had seenthe news.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
It's, yeah.
He just hit him in the wrong spot, and I thinkhe, like, hit a part of his neck just right
where it just instant.
(29:14):
Just dead.
Yep.
You know?
I mean, there's people who break their necks,who get injured all the time, who you know,
it's just
Oh, yeah.
I was supposed to interview somebody.
He's out on injury right now because he tookbroke his arm during a match.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
I've had broken ankles, slipped ribs, that kindof stuff.
Not me, but, like, I've witnessed him in thering, and I've had to call the ex once or
(29:38):
twice.
So it's it's just it's a sport, and they'reputting their lives and their body on the line
for your entertainment.
So, like, appreciate it.
Yeah.
And I always hate the disrespect of saying thatit's not real because it very much is.
But
Yeah.
Like, fake is not the right word.
It's choreographed.
It's not fake.
It's choreographed.
(30:00):
Exactly.
It's like, would you call would you call a jetlike, the things Jackie Chan does in his movies
without lines fake?
I don't see people saying that.
Yeah.
I'm like, hey.
You like the Avengers?
You know, that's all fake.
It's like Right.
And, you know, is actually fake.
Their stunts are actually fake and safelytethered.
It's a lot different.
(30:20):
It's a lot safer than wrestling.
It's a lot faker.
Oh, yeah.
For sure.
So when it comes to, like, having a match, whatis your dream match type?
You know?
Like, what would you want?
Like, your basic one on one or, like, a tagteam, triple threat, Ironman?
No, man.
It's a cage match for me.
(30:41):
I wanna do a cage match so bad.
Are we talking the cell cage or the steel cage?
Both.
I mean, both.
In the indie in the indies, it's usually asteel cage, but, like, hell in a cell cell or,
like, a elimination chamber would be prettysick being in there.
I'm just thinking on an indie level.
Yeah.
(31:01):
A cage match would be amazing or, like, aladder match would be fun.
I just did my first hardcore match last night,so that was that was fun.
So when it comes to, like, your first time,like, actually working a match match, you would
want it to be you against someone inside thecage.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, honestly, that's the perfect way tostart if you ask me.
(31:24):
Dude, hell yes.
Especially, like, with how I flip and stuff.
I mean, I I would be flipping all over theplace.
Oh, absolutely.
Well, I think I'm actually about out ofquestions here.
Is there anything you wanna tell everyonebefore we go?
(31:45):
I would just say with some advice, just, beopen minded, be a sponge, and absorb
information from any and everybody.
Don't be picky about link.
Like like, I trained with grandpa, and Itrained with, Richard Bousnego, and I trained
with, Brian and Trey and Bill and, like, allthese local, like, trainers here.
(32:08):
And it's like, it's great.
I love their information.
And because of them, I'm where I'm atcurrently.
But, like, at the same time, I'm also going toother promotions, and I'm learning from vets.
And I'm and even people who have been who justgot in it like me, I'm learning from them.
Or, and I just kinda take a little bit ofeverything and just make it my own.
(32:30):
And I'm just I'm not just, like, copy andpaste.
This guy told me exactly how he does it, so I'ma do it exactly like how he does.
You know?
To me, that doesn't make sense.
Exactly.
You know, a big thing with what you saidthere's information does lie anywhere at any
level.
You can be just starting out, and somebodynewer than you might have like, some
(32:50):
information you had never heard before.
Oh, yeah.
Absolutely.
And even, like, small stuff, like, a lot oflocal referees, like, I always learn from we
have Paul, Espinal.
We have Daryl Hall.
We have Mike Fulalove.
He's on DPW as well.
He does the DPW shows, but he also doescommentary at, at our school, like, once a
(33:13):
month, or he'll ref at our school for once ortwice a month.
He's very seasoned, and, I mean, he he doesshows all over The United States.
I mean, he's in Chicago.
He does stuff.
He went to Vegas, Romania, and he was doing abunch of local shows there.
And, you know, he's a really he's an awesomedude.
Mike Full of Love or Mike Full Black.
He is awesome.
(33:33):
Like, great great dude.
I've gotta work with him a couple times.
But, like, most of my questions are alwayslike, hey.
How do you connect your, like, radio, like,connector, like, through like, oh, you you cut
a hole in your back pocket so you put oh, okay.
Cool.
Or you like to go in the front, or do youattach in the back?
What what what do you have in your ref bag?
Okay.
Sunscreen.
Okay.
That's smart for outdoor shows.
(33:54):
Gloves, safety glasses, med kits.
Even like like, I just worked with Paul Espinalfor the first time on Sunday, and he has, like,
what's it called?
It's like a like a tool that has, like, aknife, a screwdriver.
It has, like, everything just in case.
Army knife?
Yeah.
Like, Swiss army knife.
(34:14):
He's like, you never know.
You might need it.
And I'm like, alright.
I guess I'm adding the Swiss army knife to mybag.
It's just it's just there's so many just littlesmall things.
Like, even, like, they showed it on Friday.
Like, I what I used to do, now I stoppedbecause I I I learned, but he was like, hey.
When you go to and I I used to do this.
(34:34):
I go to.
He was like, Kyle, looks like you're callingfor the bell.
So, like, you might wanna be careful when youdo that at some promotions.
You might go two, and then they might ring thebell thinking you're telling them to ring the
bell.
So now you now I just go two or two, and I juststay still.
I stay clear.
You know?
So it's just it's small stuff.
Positioning in the ring, communicating timecues, or, hey.
(34:58):
Hard cams to your left.
Hard cams to your left.
Hard cams to your right.
Hey.
Like, slow down, speed up, or, you know,whatever.
You know?
It's it's a it's a lot of information, but I'mstill learning kinda how to, like, communicate
certain things.
I got to meet Robert Gibson on Sunday.
That was cool.
Rock and roll express, baby.
Oh, yeah, man.
I mean, hell.
(35:19):
Robert Gibson.
That is amazing.
He was doing a seminar, and he was showing, hewas showing the wrestlers how to how to how to
take certain bumps and how to transition intodifferent moves.
And he was wearing, like, the WWE, performancecenter shirt and pants.
And I was like, this is pretty cool.
This guy's pretty he's made it.
He's been there.
You know?
Anybody you can learn from is that guy.
(35:41):
Well, yeah.
Absolutely.
And, I mean, definitely a great source ofinformation from what I've heard from different
people in the indie scene and from people whohave just met him that he's just an all around
great person to be in the same room as.
Yeah.
He was he was great.
He was super, like, open and giving and, like,he didn't come off like, yeah.
Like, don't talk to me.
(36:01):
Like, he was very open.
Hey, man.
How's it going?
Nice to meet you.
Like, he was very cordial, and it was it wasnice getting to meet him.
But, yeah, I don't think I got anything else.
Just wanted to give that that advice of just beopen minded and listen from all angles and all
people that are in the business.
You know?
Yeah.
Well, thank you for coming on.
(36:22):
It was great to be able to talk to you and beable to give you your first interview, and I'm
glad I got to learn about, like, refereeing andthings like that.
I mean, I haven't known much about it.
Have a great day.
Alright.
Thank you, sir.
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