I start this episode by calling him "Reverend." He corrects me, "Pastor."
I am sincerely sorry. He is graciously forgiving.
I made an honest mistake without malicious intent.
We move on to a meaningful conversation.
When I was little, we knew what racists were. There were enough people of different colors and different languages, from different parts of the globe, on East 5th Street that you either were obviously a "Goonie" or you weren't. And all it took to be one of us was total acceptance that we were all different, that's it. So if someone brought a friend over, you better make sure they were like us, accepting. Except since most of us were actually siloed by our differences during the daytimes- by yeshiva or Catholic school, by mosque or kingdom hall...
Once they hit our block, you were cool until you weren't.
So when did asking questions start to become the first sign that you might be offending me? And that's what we're going to tackle today.
PastorJohn Allen Newman of The Sanctuary @ Mt. Cavalry in Jacksonville, Florida http://www.thesanctuaryatmtcalvary.com/ joins me to share his journey from a segregated bedroom community of Philadelphia to a life shaped by social justice. Together, we explore how curiosity and open dialogue are keys to bridging cultural divides with empathy and confidence. You’ll hear about pivotal moments that molded our understanding of race and identity- from youth sports competitions tainted by discrimination to the historic collaborative spirit of the African American and Jewish communities.
Ever wondered if embracing other cultures means abandoning your cultural roots? Pastor Newman and I tackle this misconception head-on, discussing how the true beauty of diversity reflects the divine image. We emphasize unity, sharing personal anecdotes and interfaith friendships that illustrate how core values, rather than rigid doctrines, can foster a sense of community.
This episode is a tribute to those making a tangible impact. Join us as we encourage solidarity against discrimination, and inspire each other to push boundaries and speak out.
Pastor John Allen Newman is a dynamic preacher, teacher, counselor and leader, whose focus in ministry is the integration of faith and life. Throughout his tenure as Senior Pastor of The Sanctuary@ Mt. Calvary in Jacksonville, Florida, his has been a ministry different from others. It is his desire to empower those with whom he has the opportunity to share , the importance of self examination on the path to becoming better.
http://www.thesanctuaryatmtcalvary.com/pastor-newman/
Join Pastor Newman and The Sanctuary family for worship.
Sunday mornings at 9:00 am
Wednesday nights at 7:00 pm
Download the app “Sunday Streams” and use KEYWORD “TheMount”
Follow on Twitter (@pastorsheart1)
Follow on Facebook (The Sanctuary @ Mt. Calvary)
Follow on Instagram (@TheSanctuarymtcalvary)
Do you have some feedback, thoughts or questions?
Want to be a guest on my show or have an Honorable Mensch to nominate?
Connect on Instagram @SchmoozewithSuze
Subscribe to the Schmooze with Suze Podcast for your dose of #Culture, #Values and #GlobalCitizenship... with a side of #chutzpah...
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Thank you for helping us grow!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I was little, we knew what racists were.
There were enough people ofdifferent colors and different
languages, from different partsof the globe on East 5th Street
that you either were obviously agoonie or you weren't, and all
it took to be one of us wastotal acceptance that we were
all different, that's it.
So if someone brought a friendover you better make sure they
(00:23):
were like us, accepting, exceptsince most of us were actually
siloed by our differences duringthe daytimes, by yeshiva or
Catholic school, by mosque orkingdom hall.
Once they hit our block, youwere cool until you weren't.
So when did asking questionsstart to become the first sign
(00:48):
that you might be offending me?
And that's what we're going totackle today.
Hi, I'm Suze, coming to you witha dose of culture, values and
global citizenship and where wemight tackle those topics others
may consider off-limits.
A little about me.
I'm a busy Gen X mom who, quitefrankly, wanted to grow up like
(01:08):
the Brady Bunch.
But how could I, being raisedin the shadow of Schindler's
List?
So this means I've spent alifetime navigating these mixed
messages we get hit with daily.
You know those conversationswhere we wonder if it's safe to
speak our minds.
Can we share our experiences,voice our fears and concerns, or
(01:30):
should we just keep our mouthsshut?
Well, too bad.
I need to know, but I'm noexpert, so I'm going to schmooze
the experts and get theirthoughts.
Why so?
When we engage with our kids,colleagues or the countless
committees we interact with, wecan do it with competence,
kindness, confidence and maybe abit of humor.
(01:53):
If this sounds like your cup ofcoffee, welcome to Schmooze
with Suze.
My best friend, mary ElizabethEileen Myers Russo, was the
product of a nun who never gother habit and the most
incredible train conductor theNew York City Transit Authority
(02:14):
had ever encountered.
These two crazy kids ran off inthe 60s and raised my childhood
best friend in a world sodifferent than mine as the
grandkid of four Holocaustsurvivors.
So when she first walked thestairs into the Pollock
household, every question wasregistered with an expression of
awe and fascination.
(02:35):
It was clear this was purelyexperiential and educational.
She had to know why there wasmore Hebrew lettering than
English alphabet everywhere.
Why do we have two sets ofeverything in the kitchen?
Do my grandparents speak anyEnglish?
What are those numbers tattooedon your grandmother's arms?
Over the years the questionsgrew and I had to know about her
(02:59):
bunny village and tell me aboutJesus.
And of course, we know aboutthat.
We've heard of the shroud.
No, it's not bad, it'ssomething we talk about.
Wait, what does he teach?
Yeah, I guess I do follow yoursame rules.
Okay, I need to know about thePope.
How do they pick a Pope?
What does that smoke mean?
All I know is that all thosedecades, from preschool to
(03:23):
post-grad, we had so manyquestions.
And today I'm inviting my newfriend, reverend John Allen
Newman, because I love questionsas much as you do.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Welcome, glad to be here, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Thank you and welcome Welcome to Schmooze with Suze.
Thank you for the invitation.
So let's start with somequestions.
I would love to know.
I grew up on East 5th Street inBrooklyn, new York.
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I grew up in a bedroom community of
Philadelphia, pennsylvania,called Lansdowne, pennsylvania.
Some folks confuse it withLansdale, but it's Lansdowne.
Okay, it's actually about lessthan a mile from West
Philadelphia's border, very,very close In fact, when you go
across the train tracks and alot of communities are separated
by train tracks.
You look down towards the eastand you will see downtown
(04:12):
Philadelphia brightest day.
It's a beautiful, beautifulsight.
And so, again, like I said,it's a bedroom community of
Philadelphia and it was quitesegregated when I was growing up
and our block, again on theother side of the tracks, was
predominantly African-Americanand, as you would go north, on
(04:34):
the other side of the tracks,that was predominantly white and
when I grew up in Lansdowne itwas kind of very Dickensian.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It's kind of like a tale of two cities.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very much so, and I went to a school that was
integrated, but I do rememberbeing bused in my sixth grade in
order to meet the desegregationdemand.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So how did that feel to be picked up from where you
were comfortable and you hadyour community, and then be told
that, for your own benefit,you're going to be sent
someplace else?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We really well.
Let me speak for myself.
I wasn't cognizant of that.
All I knew was oh, this was mynext school, so instead of
walking to school, which I woulddo every day, I was being bused
to another school, and,interestingly enough, that
school now is predominantlyAfrican-American.
It's amazing.
(05:32):
It's amazing how the migrationshifts of demographic patterns,
and so I grew up there and hadsome really good experiences.
Grew up there and had somereally good experiences, and I
(05:53):
recognized in retrospect more ofthe racism, or the racializing
of my existence as I lookedbackwards.
I was an athlete, so I playedfootball and baseball, and one
of the things that happened whenI played football was that I
participated, and I was avarsity letterman, so I was
pretty good, and so I discoveredwhat's something called pass,
punt and kick.
That was something that wasdone by the NFL.
You pass the ball, you get topunt the ball and kick the ball.
(06:15):
And it was a regional kind ofcompetition where I won it.
And I remember going to abanquet and one of the
Philadelphia Eagles and it wasPete Retzlaff I remember like
yesterday Poor memory You'retalking about like a long time
ago, right and so he came and Itook a picture with him and so
forth and so on.
(06:35):
And then during the Super Bowl,I happened to be watching it
and saw where all of the winnersof the past punt and kick
contest were there for thenational contest.
That's how I found out.
I knew nothing about that, andso that was a way that I
(06:58):
recognized that perhaps thecolor of my skin disallowed me
from being made aware of thatinvitation or that I was
entitled to participate.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Wow, and how old were you?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Oh, my goodness, I was probably at that point
around I'll say 13, 12, 13 yearsold, and that's how I realized
that, wow, but I won my region,I won it, but I never got the
invitation.
And so that's why I say inretrospect, I was able to kind
(07:32):
of discern, because even at thatmoment it didn't hit me.
It hit me later on, as I becamemore aware of the difference
between me and others predicatedon the racializing of my skin.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That's such an interesting idea, because I
often ask myself when do yourealize that other people are
different than you, or thatyou're different than other
people, and that becomes thelens with which you see that
situation?
In this case, you were seen asdifferent from other people.
You had never seen yourself asdifferent from them all this
time.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And that's and you know it's an interesting thing
because when we're having thisconversation you're saying
African-American and I rememberthe first time that I realized I
was aware of both that growingup on East fifth street we had
Nigerian neighbors, so they wereblack, they weren't
African-Americans, but we hadfriends who were third
generation and so they wereblack.
They weren't African Americans,but we had friends who were
third generation and so theywere, in fact, african Americans
(08:28):
.
And so as the years progressedwhich is how I started this
episode when did questionsbecome so uncomfortable that
we're too scared to ask them?
I now recognize the distinctionbetween those two words black
and African American.
I think a lot of people maybedidn't or don't, and so they
were too scared to ask and sothey just don't say either word.
(08:49):
Now, in your community right,you say the trail, the railroad
tracks.
I imagine it's probably like aCSX line, because I'm from New
York I had the F train that wasan above ground subway and
that's different.
Uh, above ground train.
That's different above groundtrain and that's separated.
Two neighborhoods Also thatseparated the ultra Orthodox
(09:11):
Jewish neighborhood from myneighborhood.
My parents had left theirenclave on the other side of the
tracks, very insular Europeanimmigrant Holocaust survivor
community that spoke mostlyYiddish as their first language.
So I me growing up on Eastfifth and I go back to East
(09:36):
fifth my whole life because thatwas the Genesis of being aware
of how lucky I was to live in amosaic, and so I've spent my
entire life since then trying tocapture that essence of how our
differences highlight oursuperpowers.
So when I met you, which wasduring that transition committee
(09:58):
right, it was during MayorDeegan's transition team and
every time you opened your mouthyou had this presence of how
your congregation fits in thegreater scheme of how
Jacksonville can be elevated andhow our communities can be
de-siloed, and I found like akindred spirit in that.
(10:22):
So in your neighborhood, didyou grow up with any Jewish
friends?
Did you meet Jewish peoplegrowing up In the neighborhood?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
No, but when I went to pastor my first church in
Philadelphia, I was a part offact.
I was a founding member of anorganization called Black Clergy
of Philadelphia and Vicinity.
I was the communicationsdirector, so I did all the media
stuff.
Now you got to remember, I'mnot surprised Penn Jordan, which
is Pennsylvania, jersey,delaware, that kind of
(10:51):
megalopolis had about, I think,maybe seven to 9 million people
that's how many people are inthat Penn Jordan area.
And so we had clergy from thePenn-Girardella area, but
primarily from Philadelphia, andwe dealt with social justice
issues.
And during the time when I wasin college, I was heavily
(11:13):
influenced by Dr Anthony Campolo, who helped us understand that
the gospel of Jesus Christwalked on two solid legs.
It wasn't just about where yougo when you die, it was about
how do you live out your faith.
And living out that faithfundamentally meant that you had
(11:34):
to connect with those who werecalled the least of these.
And so, for instance, webrought food when there was a
standoff between you may notremember this when there was a
group called Move inPhiladelphia and they were
firebombed, unfortunately, bythe mayor it happened to be an
African-American, mayor, wilsonGood.
(11:55):
It happened under his watch.
Well, we brought them food.
We dealt with the school crisiswhen the union and school board
couldn't get along and themayor couldn't make it happen,
and so 24 of us wore our robesand blocked traffic at Broad and
Vine Street, which is the mainartery in Philadelphia, and we
(12:18):
all got arrested.
24 of us did.
But the reason why I mentionedmy relationship with the Jewish
community was that we workedhand in hand with rabbis and
pastors to to deal with socialjustice issues, and so that's
what really helped me torecognize the kindred kind of
spirits we had towards justice.
(12:39):
Then also my mother.
Now here's another interestingthing.
I was born to very, veryelderly parents.
My father was 53 when I wasborn, my mother was 41.
And so if my father were alivetoday this is 2024, he would be
122 years old.
Wow, right, right.
So my mother is the one whoacclimated to me growing up in
(13:03):
West Virginia, which she did.
My father was from Lansdowne,but growing up in West Virginia,
she talked about and you mayhave heard me reference this how
, during the depression, theonly folks who had each other's
backs were blacks and Jews.
They took care of each otherbecause they were both being
oppressed.
And so it drew them together,and my mother would often in her
(13:27):
latter years, talk to me abouthow sad it was to her how in
many instances the black andJewish community had not been as
close as they once were.
Right, because she remembershow they took care of each other
yes, of each other.
So a lot of that was kind ofeducation in my mother's knee.
Also my own existentialexperience and working as a
pastor and working with Jewishleadership and bringing justice
(13:50):
to issues we were concernedabout in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, that sounds very organic and authentic.
I think you're right.
I think in Brooklyn, it wasn'tuntil the crown house riots that
there was a distinct division.
In fact, uh, back in theseventies, my dad's first
business partner partner was ablack man.
Um, and I don't remember, uncleJohn, I don't remember there
(14:19):
ever being a sense, and maybethat's why my parents did move
from that very insulated enclavebecause they were more
open-minded in that respect andto give us the opportunity to
see things differently.
Because, like I've come todiscover, you said in retrospect
hindsight is, you know, 2020 orit's LASIK surgery?
Good, but I didn't know howprivileged I was to grow up with
(14:45):
no concerns that someone wouldtake it the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And so now I said, before this episode kicked off,
that for me in the last decade,very intentionally understanding
that I moved to a place wheremy first historical tour was in
St Augustine and what did theyteach you about?
Where Martin Luther King Jr wasarrested at the hotel.
And then it triggered the civilrights act of 1964.
(15:14):
And I remember taking a classin a class in high school it was
an elective called decadesixties.
We thought what we were goingto be learning about was tie dye
and weed.
It was an easy a.
It turned out that, exactly whatyou just mentioned, they were
feeding us the history of socialjustice and they were teaching
(15:36):
us what the Torah taught usabout Sedeq, about justice, and
they were melding the two intosocial action and community
impact and global citizenship.
And so when you say the blackand the Jewish community, I
think possibly it's theconnection to faith, it's the
connection to the other thingsthat I'm learning more.
(15:57):
And again, I hope that you'renot going to take this the wrong
way and my listeners won't takethis the wrong way, but as I'm
exploring the city that I'mraising my kids in and I spend
more time out East, some of whatI have heard is people taking
pride in the community they grewup in, where the doctors were
African-American, their bankers,their insurance agents,
everyone in their communitywithin 15 minutes of walking
(16:20):
distance looked and grew up justlike them, same as me.
My community, my East fifthstreet, was the same, but my
doctor was Jewish and my bankerwas Jewish and it wasn't any
different.
And it wasn't until somewherein the nineties that I started
to hear people talk about howall Jews were in money or in
finance and I was like wait what?
(16:41):
But in these other communities,you know and my Hispanic
friends, they go to a Hispaniclawyer who's not Jewish.
When did we start to siloourselves in this space that for
me, I felt that the tragedythat happened outside your
(17:03):
congregation last year, thedollar general, was what gave us
a quick, swift kick of get yourunity back together.
Jacksonville, this is not whoyou are or whose you are, so
talk to me a little bit aboutyour congregation, where you fit
in, how global citizenship hasimpacted the way you preach, the
(17:23):
way you teach, the way you movethrough our brave, safe space.
A bold city with the potentialfor pilot possibilities.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Jacksonville could be so much more, and we hope that
it does become that One of thethings that we've often
mentioned.
I know that I have more thanonce, so I hope it's not like a
broken record, but we don't wantthe epitaph to be written on
the tombstone of Jacksonvilledied with great potential.
It has a lot of potential and,unfortunately, what has really
(18:01):
siloed many of us is our eitherlack of due diligence or lack of
information as to what realityis in our lives.
We have a tendency to have thisconfirmation bias where I want
to hear what I want to hear andit confirms what I already think
(18:21):
.
We don't challenge ourselvesenough anymore, and so, even
though there's nothing at allwrong with intra-community
support or the circulation ofdollars in a community that
enhances the community, that'snothing that should be
pejorative.
So if you have a Jewish doctoror a lawyer, whatever, in terms
(18:44):
of your professional access,there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem is when people thinkthat somehow, when you silo
that, that you're discountingother communities and you're not
discounting other communities.
It's just a part of who you areand that's okay.
Discounting other communitiesit's just a part of who you are
(19:05):
in this, that's okay.
The other aspect, I think andit goes back to the information
piece I was mentioning whenpeople are in these silos and
then they start hearing thatthere is some level of supremacy
to their silo than to others,and then they begin to look at
others through a different lens,that you're not just different,
(19:26):
which is diversity we all are,but I'm better that's a problem
and that's a sickness that we'renot really doing well in in the
country as a whole, inJacksonville in particular,
we're getting better than wewere, of course, but there's
still this kind ofdichotomization between us
(19:49):
versus them, because we becomeso siloed.
And when we challenge ourselvesto better information and that
is a challenge because, as MScott Peck says, you know, one
of the greatest challenges youhave in your life is
self-examination when we examineourselves and realize, you know
what, my perspectives aren'tbroad enough, there's more to
(20:10):
what I know than what I know,there's a great unknown out
there Then I challenge myself tofind out what that is.
And too many of us getcomfortable in our silos in our
communities, don't challengeourselves and then believe that,
well, my way is the right way.
It's not necessarily so.
People have different ways ofdoing things and we have to
(20:31):
appreciate the fact that, intheir authenticity, they're
being true to themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Right, yeah, and two things can be true at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Time and one doesn't have to be discounted.
And sadly, in many, in many,sadly today, very sadly today
I'm going to try to be carefulabout how I put this but in many
Christian communities there ishostility to diversity as
opposed to hospitable diversityI love that expression,
(21:02):
diversity and the reason why isbecause people believe that in
order for instance, I'll talkabout the church in order to be
a Christian, then you have tonow get rid of everything else
before that.
So I'm a Christian first,meaning that I'm not
African-American Christian, I'mnot Italian American, I'm not.
(21:24):
Whatever the case may be, I'mChristian because I follow Jesus
and what they don't recognize.
And this is going into somethingdeep called supersessionalism,
where the church replaces theIsrael right, the
supersessionalism which isreally not accurate
theologically speaking, and itcomes from a scripture where it
(21:45):
talks about you know the law andhow the two now have become one
and a new person has been, or anew man, so to speak, has been
created.
But what they don't realize isthat it's not talking about that
God wants us to get rid ofdiversity.
That is absolutely not.
The truth is that diversityshouldn't be seen through the
(22:05):
eyes of hostility, because Godmade all of us in his image.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But selim Elohim in the divine image, we all have it
.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And we say in Greek the imago dei.
Yes, so we've been made inGod's image.
In the beauty of diversity, inthe tapestry, in the landscape
of all of our pigmentation, orlack thereof, we complete the
imago dei.
We complete the image of God.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's a mosaic.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It is.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Why did everyone think that it was going to be
one color like all teal?
It's going to be all Duval teal.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But here's the problem with colorblindness,
which people think is a virtue,but it's not.
It's a deception, because youalways default into the dominant
culture.
When you look for colorblindness, you look for color
sameness, you default intowhat's dominant.
Well, that would mean that forme, because the dominant culture
is white culture, that I wouldhave to be a Christian.
(23:00):
I've got to default into whiteculture and lose my blackness.
No, god, basically saying Icreated all of you to be a
mosaic, as you said, withoutyour contribution to the picture
, it's incomplete and so and so,therefore, I don't have to stop
being black, you don't have tostop being Jewish, you don't
(23:21):
have to stop being Hindu, youdon't have to stop being Indian.
Be who you are.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That is God, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Image of God complete .
Speaker 1 (23:29):
So, by the same token , one of the best trips I ever
took in my life was and I'vebeen to Israel many times, I've
been too, thankfully oh, it'sbeautiful.
What's so special is this tripcalled Momentum and it was a
women's trip, specifically formothers.
Their core message is unitywithout uniformity.
(23:54):
For a Jewish group to say unitywithout uniformity, it elevated
the entire experience ofconnectivity exponentially.
Because for me, the idea ofreligion I said my best friend
was Mary Beth.
We were, I mean, a nun withouta habit and some rabbi history.
(24:18):
The two of us would sit on thestoop and we would talk for
hours.
We were, and it ultimatelybecame not interfaith but
multi-faith.
Right, cause we didn't likeconverge.
She didn't become Jewish and Ididn't become Christian.
We celebrated each other'sexperiences Like I would
(24:39):
celebrate your birthday.
It's not my birthday, right,I'm coming to your party Doesn't
make it my birthday, I'm notturning your age.
That became okay Somewherealong the way.
I remember there was a littleconcern my mother had that there
would be someone attempting tomaybe try to convert us or there
would be some kind of, whichnever happened.
There was that respect andacknowledgement.
(25:01):
So, unity without uniformity.
Here we are, and I know thatwhen I think of my core values
and I ask myself three questionswhen it comes to any decision
Will it please God, is it goodfor my family?
Depending on the circumstance,the third question changes Is it
(25:23):
good for me or is it good formy community?
Okay, but the first questionwill it please God?
It's not a religious question.
God is inside of me.
God is not in a place ofworship, because I take God with
me everywhere I go, because Iask that question everywhere I
am.
If the answer is no, I don'thave to go to my second question
.
It doesn't matter.
Done, right.
The answer is yes.
Is it good for my family?
(25:43):
Now I get to think about whatdoes family mean?
You're my family.
Now that I see that we sharevalues in our community.
Our goal is to see us allthrive and for all of our
children to succeed and bringhope into the future.
Will it make me happy?
Well, is it good for mycommunity, right?
(26:03):
None of those are specificallyreligious questions about a
religion per se.
They're about our values.
So I want to talk about yourcongregation, because I watch
you online on Wednesdays, ifyou're interested.
Pastor Newman does an amazingservice.
That you can communicate viachat.
(26:25):
Is this something that youstarted organically during COVID
as a way to connect?
Did you find yourself as amedia influencer in this
religious space?
How did you navigate a pulpitto a personal experiential
connection that makes me want tocome and sit in a pew, but I
(26:49):
won't come without an invitationand I will bring my husband.
You're invited.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Actually, we we began .
I began being online wellbefore the COVID situation.
I would do on Sunday evenings Iforget what I used to call it.
It was from six until sevenevenings.
I forget what I used to call it.
It was from six until seven,but it was something about.
(27:16):
Well, let me give you anessence of what it was.
We would come online At thatpoint we had chat rooms.
You can remember that.
Yes, I do, okay.
So I had a chat room wherepeople could come on and I would
say this is very organic.
So, whatever you're dealingwith, whatever issues you're
dealing with, let's talk aboutit, and people will put all
kinds of stuff in there.
I would just deal with it rightthere.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
You would counsel.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I would, I would counsel, and I've always
had a proclivity or an interestmore so in neurotheology.
So it's the hybrid of neurologyand theology how the brain
works, because when you knowbetter you can do theology, so
how the brain works, becausewhen you know better, you can do
better.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Neuroplasticity it's the essence of spirituality.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You're growing.
Our brains are malleable andthey can be trained and taught
and changed because of themalleability.
So I would do that and I waspastoring, of course, at the
same time.
I would do that and I waspastoring, of course, at the
same time, but then on Sundaymornings we had our Facebook.
It was just Facebook at thatpoint and we would broadcast.
(28:17):
We were doing that before COVID, but of course it took on a
totally different level ofsignificance after we got into
COVID and we shut down because alot of our church is elderly
and half of our staff COVID tookfrom us.
So it was, it was real.
May their memories be for ablessing.
Thank you, it was real.
So we've had an online presence, but the Wednesdays kind of
(28:44):
transitioned into again back toalmost like that counseling
space.
But some theology, you know,some biblical concepts that
you've heard me talk aboutmishpat and tzedakah and other
things that are in the HebrewRelevant you talk about what's
relevant in social justice,which is always relevant.
(29:05):
Yes, and I've tried, in fact,almost this whole year I've been
really doing deeper dives andhelping people understand those
of us in the Christian communitythat the Bible that the New
Testament references is reallythe Septuagint.
You know, that was the Biblethey grew up on, that's all the
(29:27):
Bible they knew.
And even the Old Testamentwasn't canonized until 90 AD at
Jamnia near Joppa, and the NewTestament after 367, after the
encyclical letter of Athanasius.
So when they talk about allscriptures given by inspiration,
they're talking about the Torah, they're talking about the
Nidim, they're talking about theKetubim.
That's what they're talkingabout.
And so I've been helping ourcongregation understand the
(29:52):
roots.
If you really want tounderstand the beauty of our
faith, you got to dig deep intothe roots of Judaism, and that's
what we've been doing.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Oh, wow, that's what we've been doing.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And so it's been fun, because that's how I taught
them that the word that we liketo use for judgment is actually
justice.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, it's justice.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, we translate it judgment, right.
And so when we talk aboutjudgment begins at the house of
God right, it's about justicereally begins at the house of
God.
We like to make it into thiscondemnation thing.
In the Christian community welike to condemn people.
I mean, seriously, you knowwho's the flavor of the month,
(30:33):
you know.
I mean we're very easy tocondemn folk and don't realize
that the faith is.
It really comes down to theShema.
It just comes down to you, loveGod.
Do you love your neighbor asyou love yourself?
Yes, that's it, and that'sreally everything that Rabbi
Jesus taught.
Actually, that's it.
That's really what he taught.
Yes, that's it.
(30:53):
And that's really everythingthat Rabbi Jesus taught.
Actually, that's it.
That's really what he taught.
Yes, and?
And we get caught up into thepoliticization flying an
American flag or a Democrat orlots of geopolitics, lots of
extras, which is dangerousbecause we think we equate, that
our political perspective isthe perspective of God and God
always transcends politics.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
When I, when I was, I had the privilege of preaching
in Russia years ago in Moscowand at the first Baptist church
of Moscow, and and I attended, Iattended a round table
discussion at the Kremlinbelieve it or not, oh wow,
Between believers and atheists.
And so when I made it, I had inmy in my.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
In Russia, where atheism is like the standard of
you, have achieved all thingsbetter than everyone else.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah.
But the church, believe it ornot, was alive.
But they had a lot, of, a lotof restrictions on you, couldn't
, you couldn't go out and meetin proselytize.
You can't, you can't youcouldn't go out and meet in
proselytize, you, can't you?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
couldn't, you can't explain, you can't give hope,
you can't they don't right andthe red lights went off when
they saw my bible.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You could bring one by, but I brought it and the red
lights went off.
They went to all my bags andeverything was fun.
But what I'm saying is that I Irecognize there that when I
went to to testify, what do wehave in common?
What we have in common is thatnuclear missiles don't decide if
you're Democrat or Republican,whether you're Russian or
(32:18):
American.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Whether you're Israeli or Palestinian.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Israeli or Palestinian Bombs kill people,
bullets kill people and it wasso important in that moment when
I mentioned that and I preachedthis too that God transcends
government, and I'll neverforget this.
One of the Russians I hadbecome friends with I was there
almost three weeks.
One of the Russians I becamefriends with his name was Yuri.
(32:41):
We were going to get togetherfor what we had called the
American Gala, which is our lastthing we did, where we invited
everybody to come, and he calledme that next morning and said I
can't come.
I said why?
He said someone overheard ourconversation we were talking
about because he was agreeingthat God is above government and
(33:02):
he got in trouble for agreeingwith me in that conversation and
I recognized then that thattruth some can't handle because
they want to nationalize God fortheir purpose.
That's what Putin has done.
The Russian Orthodox Church isone of his biggest supporters
because they have nationalisticChristianity there and we're
(33:25):
trying to do that here and thatis really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So let's go back to the top of the show.
Is this why people are scaredto ask more questions?
Because what if someoneoverhears my question and takes
it as a statement and thencondemns me or cancels me or
judges me and I won't have achance to explain?
Or, in the case of some of thesituations lately, I always feel
(33:48):
like I'm defensive and I feellike I'm always having to
explain things and I'mexplaining to Western society
something that's Middle Easterncultures and values that goes
back generations and thousandsof years to tribalism that they
can't comprehend.
And then I feel a littleconcerned that, you know, do I
feel as though this is goingnowhere fast and are we going to
(34:12):
devolve?
And is my friend not going towant to see me again the next
day?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, and sadly tribalism really is at the base
of what's going on now in theUnited States.
Let me try to say this assuccinctly as I possibly can.
There have been people in thiscountry for years who have been
kind of looked over, neglected,forgotten in terms of the
(34:37):
national political conversation,who found an identity in the
current former president andthat identity gave them a sense
of belonging, and allanthropologists and social
psychologists will tell you howimportant belonging is.
Maslow's hierarchy of needsbelonging is important, so they
(35:01):
found a sense of belonging.
That sense of belonging formany of them is so important
that, going back to your point,what if someone actually hears
me say you know you have a goodpoint about something that they
don't agree with in the group?
What if that person decides tothink for themselves and
(35:26):
recognize one of the tenets ofwhat they base their belonging
on is error?
Now they have to weigh.
Am I willing just by simplychanging my mind because I've
gotten better understanding andI've gotten the truth?
Am I willing to lose my friendsif I let them know it?
(35:48):
Am I willing to lose my churchif I let them know it?
Am I willing to lose my churchif I let them know it?
Am I willing to lose my familyconnections and deepest
relationships who are all partis no.
(36:10):
So they see their values tobelonging to a group so they can
stay connected to what has beenlonging and missing in their
lives for so long reasons whypeople are where they are.
(36:30):
But one of the deepest reasonswhy people are caught up in some
of this toxicity is that theyhave found an identity in
something that's larger thanthemselves and they're willing
to see their values and not evenhear anything that could
possibly contradict what theyalready believe, because of what
they think it might cost them.
So they just stay.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I agree with you a hundred percent and I see this
on both sides.
When I look at the collegecampuses today, that's exactly
what I see.
I see in a lot of circumstancesthere are students who have
started to use critical thinkingand they're scared to get out
of this because they're so farin and they feel accepted in
(37:13):
ways that they didn't before.
Because, for whatever reason,did we get to a place where
people didn't feel comfortableenough to be their true,
authentic self, because theywere scared you wouldn't accept
them in the first place, firstplace.
And now you've become a versionof everyone who's the loudest
person around you, and thelouder the voices get, the more
(37:39):
that echo chamber gets echoier.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
How do you find your way out in that case?
Is there a way out?
That's tough, susie, becauseoftentimes people think, because
they're louder, that that makesthem more right, and it doesn't
.
Let me just say this aboutwhat's happening on college
campuses Nobody and I certainlyunderstand this as an
(38:04):
African-American, no one shouldfeel the emotional weight of a
lack of safety because of whothey are.
No one, no Jewish studentshould walk across the yard and
be frightened for their livesbecause they're Jewish.
(38:27):
And if that's not vociferouslydefended and opposed, that's a
problem.
And we can talk about freespeech all we want, but if free
speech is used to incite harmingsomeone else, then that can't
(38:48):
be a part of our First Amendment.
We've got to make sure thatpeople are protected in their
person, in their bodies and even, to a large degree,
psychologically, the emotionalweight that is on a lot of
Jewish students because incampuses they don't feel safe
anymore and it's been madepretty obvious that they're not
(39:10):
being protected by theinstitutions that they should
have been protected by, andthat's real.
And I think that one of thethings that we as
African-Americans can do is wecan identify what it feels like
not to feel safe, and I'vewatched some not all, but some
of the conversations in campus,not campus.
(39:34):
I'm sorry for Congress from thedifferent presidents, and some
of them were trying to walk thisline between first amendment
rights and free speech and soforth.
But when it comes to the safetyof your students, you've got to
take action.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You can't just simply say, well, it's their first
amendment right, just as youcan't go into a theater right
and yell fire.
Can I ask you a question?
Sure, because this is how I wastriggered.
I didn't think about this whenI married my husband.
I told you I lived on Eastfifth street and I grew up in a
uh, family that was very Zionistand very proudly Jewish
(40:11):
identifying.
And so because all of my youknow friends in my block didn't
care that we were so proudly I'mnot even kidding when Halloween
came and someone rang my belland said trick or treat, my
mother would say we don'tcelebrate that.
That's how Jewish we weregrowing up.
Now I like throw candy at kids.
From that trigger, that scar, Ijust unlocked a core memory.
(40:34):
But here's the first thing thatoccurred to me.
It didn't start like that.
When I first saw that dollargeneral shooting, you know, I
realized that in Orlando, anhour and a half, two hours from
here, there were proud boys thatwere marching the suburbs.
You remember that last summerand, like you said, that feeling
(40:56):
of belonging.
Why were they marching in thesuburbs?
Because there are kids who haveno friends and there are teens
and there are young adults whoare in their basements.
Well, there's no basements inFlorida but they're playing
video games and that was a callto them.
Here's more misfits like me whodon't have right.
They were there and the firstthing I thought of is why is the
black community not screamingtheir heads off?
(41:18):
Why am I so scared because ofmy Holocaust survivor
grandparents that they're comingfor my kids?
Doesn't this scare the bejesusout of you?
Because that was the firstthing I thought.
If it became so easy to round upthe Jews, hitler said well,
let's not stop there.
(41:38):
There's gypsies and let's notstop there.
There's political and let's not.
There's artists and gays andthere's disabilities.
Right, it didn't stop with theJews.
So when people on campusesright Now, as like you said, it
changed the landscape when Ifirst saw people and I thought,
(41:59):
ok, this is a mosaic of people.
But then when I started toreally look at the campuses and
it looked like with all duerespect to my privileged white
American friends, a bunch ofprivileged white American
students who didn't really havethat much to lose to lose, I
(42:21):
didn't see as many black kids orAfrican-American kids or
minority students on thoseencampments because they had to
weigh what that tarnishing ontheir record would look like in
the future perhaps, but whyweren't there more people that
were screaming this is racism,this is just straight racism.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean you were, you haveand you do.
(42:41):
And, on behalf of my family, Ithank you because I didn't think
for one second if I had to hidemy kids which is, by the way, a
question every Jewish motherasks herself who would hide my
kids?
I will be at your congregationwith my two children and you and
lady O will be the de facto.
They're wonderful children.
They don't clean up afterthemselves.
(43:02):
I'm telling you now, but yousaid outright who you are and
whose you are.
You are a child of God.
You stand for social justice,truth and faith, and I said oh
good, where was?
Was everyone else?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I think particularly the african-american community,
and we're not monolithic, as youknow that, but many, many, many
of us in the african-americancommunity identify, in this
particular season in which welive in culture, with the, the
oppression of the palestinianpeople.
That's the reality.
Okay, that's, that's really thereality of the Palestinian
people.
That's the reality of it, that'sreally the reality of it.
And oppression as anoverarching meta-narrative.
(43:45):
When you look at oppression inthe world, we who have been so
oppressed easily identify withothers who we see are being
oppressed or feel are beingoppressed, and then no one seems
to be necessarily going to the,the derivation or the root of
(44:12):
it.
It's, it's what's happening now, and so you know.
And this kind of leads tosomething else which is really
important.
Were you there with at the, thevigil, rabbi Lippeners?
Yes, okay, yes, okay.
(44:33):
And we get so easily caught upon sides that we don't realize
the only way to really win ispeace, yeah, and are we willing
to pay peace's price?
Because it's a high price, andthat's the ultimate question.
(44:57):
Are we willing Because peacesays here's the price, and
that's that's the ultimatequestion?
Are we willing Cause P sayshere's the price?
The price is you're not goingto get everything you want, but
the price that you pay is peoplestop dying as a result.
Are you willing to pay thatprice?
And on both sides the answerclearly is not yet.
(45:17):
And so how do we find that?
As we saw that nightbeautifully, I mean, and this is
something about the receptivityand I learned this first in
Israel, the receptivity in theJewish community of you know, I
didn't realize there wereIsraeli, arab as rate um uh,
(45:37):
israeli, um, arab, israelis.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Went over there.
I said that what Right?
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Oh yeah, wait until you meet an Asian Israeli
speaking Hebrew, with a Chineseaccent.
I will take you to Chinesedinner in Jerusalem.
But every shape color size andevery shape color size, and that
is something that people don'trecognize when it comes to
Israel, when it comes to Arabs,when it comes to Jews, I went to
Haifa and Arabs and Jews havinglunch together.
(46:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
It was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Ahmad and Salim is my husband's number one humus area
, which is a pizzeria for humus.
Yeah, ahmad and Salim, yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
And so you know people forget that Ishmael and
Isaac eventually came togetherwhen they buried Abraham, and
and that's what my prayer isthat eventually we'll stop
saying who wants to be moreright and like what is it going
(46:37):
to take for us to bury this sowe can start living in peace?
And I don't know what thatprice is, but that's the price
that peace asks both sides topay in order to stop the
conflict.
We heard it that night thatarguing on both sides is not
really bringing peace.
You got to fight for peace.
Peace is the only way out.
And I think then you startgetting into other aspects of
(47:00):
the politicization of it, and Idon't want to get into that.
But sometimes the tail wags thedog and people decide war is
better than peace because if Iget peace then they're going to
remember how bad I am and kickme out.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I won't go there anyway there's a whole slew of
things, right.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
There's a whole slew of things.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
But here's the bottom line Will it please God, is it
good for my family and will itmake me happy or is it good for
the community If we had todistill it down to those three
questions?
Is there a basis for somethingthat takes us, like you said,
above politics?
(47:41):
Right, when I started thispodcast, that was the purpose.
What was above politics?
Global citizenship.
I wanted us to go back to thebasis, to SEDEC, to justice, and
that superseded all of thethings that divided us.
It was sort of like, like youknow, we say the gut instinct,
(48:02):
because you feel it before yourbrain can confirm or deny it,
because those neurons they livethere from when you were created
in the womb and so if itdoesn't feel right, it's
probably wrong.
Why is that so simple and yetso difficult to attain?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
I think it goes back to what I'm saying before,
because we get vested inpositions and we get connected
on a visceral level to yourpoint, to where we just will
protect that visceral decisionwe've made, because when it's
that deep, it becomes anidentifier and when it becomes a
(48:47):
part of your identity, you canactually get to a point where,
if I give this up, do I know whoI am anymore?
And so people hold on to things, even things that are toxic.
I think also and COVID couldhave done this the thing that
(49:11):
really is going to bring peopletogether so that the sky and the
land because, as you know, inTohupovohu, you know, the sky
and the land come back together.
Yes, God wants it to.
Something has to threaten allof us enough to lay down our
stupidity, oh my gosh.
Something has to say to us whoa, we're fighting about what, and
(49:34):
this can kill all of us outwhat, and this can kill all of
us.
Until we have something thatreally causes us to weigh the
consequences of our behavior, wewill continue the behavior.
Oh my gosh, COVID could havedone it, but it got politicized
because people were fearful oflosing power, fearful of losing
(49:56):
power.
And then it was as we saw youknow started to spiral.
Yeah, it started to spiral godown into this away from
humanity away from it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
And into positional and political.
And here we are all this timelater, and I mean, it reminds me
right, we say I've often, youknow, talked about how, during
the time of Noah, why is it thatGod decided to just get rid of
everything and with the flood,but not that tower of Babel?
The tower of Babel, they werebuilding it to fight God.
(50:31):
They were going to take on Godand he said, no, them, I'm not
taking down.
Why?
Because they were workingtogether for a common cause, but
at the time of Noah they werenot.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
That is an interpretation.
An interpretation they weretrying to actually get rid of
the diversity and be all one.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Like homogenous yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
That is not how I made you.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
That's not how I made you.
That's not how I made you Smackthat right, and I like your
interpretation too.
It is a privilege.
Can you tell our guests wherethey can see you in person,
where they can find you online,because I look forward to your
worship.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Oh, thank you.
We are on every Sunday morningat nine o'clock on Facebook or
YouTube the sanctuary at MountCalvary, just as it sounds, and
on Wednesday evenings, facebook,youtube.
Oh, also forgot to mention thatif you download Holy Connection
TV on Roku, you can watch usthere too, and soon you'll be
(51:36):
able to watch us on Apple TV aswell.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Oh, fabulous.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, so, but right now primarily Facebook, YouTube,
and you can catch us onWednesday evenings at seven.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
And we have a blast.
As you know, we have a really.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I enjoy it.
I really enjoy it, and I willsay this if you are looking for
an intelligent, empathetic andvery, very passionate keynote
speaker, I cannot recommend youmore than it's such a privilege
to learn from you and with you,and I feel called to have you
(52:12):
back, I hope, next season forcontinued conversation.
It's such a such a privilege.
So is there anything upcomingthat you want to share?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, actually we're having a community fair on the
8th and we're going to havedifferent vendors and different
services available to people inthe community.
So we'd love to have peoplecome out June 8th.
And yeah, june the 8th fromnine until noon.
And you know, I forgot tomention that at Ahavath you said
(52:46):
we've worked with them in thepast and I meant to mention that
.
When we talk about myrelationship with the community.
Here we've actually exchangedpulpits.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
I think it was Rabbi Leaf at that point when we did
that.
But we're talking to Maya.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Rabbi Glasser, yes, about Pulpit Swap.
That's exactly it.
So we talked about all of theseinteresting things, which is
why I'm very excited to come andvisit you in person.
See, not just remotely, but Ilike to be there in person.
I have a hat and everythingpicked out.
I've been watching the videos.
I know, okay, I understand theassignment.
I would really appreciate ifyou could send my regards to
(53:29):
your beautiful bride andcongratulate her on her recent
yes, she got her doctorate aswell, right?
Speaker 2 (53:35):
And she's in law school.
Yes, she'll finish law schoolin May of next year, this time
next year God bless.
Jd-mba hybrid.
Yes, and she's right now inGhana.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
She's in Africa.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
She's in Africa for two weeks.
She's been there with a part ofa cohort from Southern
University, the MBA program.
Wow, there's a program overthere, a corresponding school,
and so they have this, you know,sister school kind of thing,
and so she's over there throughthe MBA programs.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
Oh, we're going to have to do a conversation about
couples and how to engage.
That would be great.
I'll bring Ben on.
We'll do a couple's talk, right?
I know usually they they talkabout sports.
They don't like to talk aboutthe spiritual stuff like us.
They talk yeah, ravens, browns.
I don't know, it's not my deal,I don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Now.
My wife is from Ohio, so youmentioned the Browns.
She's all in.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yes, I know, that's it.
That's it.
I don't know anything aboutanything.
You want to talk about God andcommunity?
I'm your girl.
You want to talk about football?
That's my current husband.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
That'd be fun.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yes, I look forward to it.
Thank you, Pastor, for beinghere.
It's always such a privilege.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Thank you for the opportunity and bless you Thank
you, and now it's time for ourhonorable mention.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Menj is the Yiddish word for a person of integrity
who does the right thing becauseit's the right thing to do.
Today's honorable mench is DrTracy Polson.
You might be familiar with DrTracy Polson from Mayor Donna
Deegan's administration, but Iam familiar with Dr Tracy Polson
because she is an advocate formental health.
She has made an impact in someof the most underserved
(55:18):
communities here in the citywhere I'm raising my children.
She has advocated for theunhoused, for the chronically
ill, for the addicted, for theinfected, for the needy, for the
foster, for the recovering.
Dr Polson has not stoppedadvocating to, for and about
(55:40):
every part of Jacksonville, andnow we are fortunate enough to
watch her engage in a number ofgrants and opportunities to
enhance us, because a risingtide lifts all ships.
If you know of someone who isthe kind of mensch who should
get an honorable mention, sendme a note at schmoozewithsuesorg
(56:03):
or drop me a line on Instagram.
That's going to do it for ustoday.
Thanks for sticking around.
Make sure to subscribe toSchmooze with Suze on YouTube
and follow me on Instagram toget your daily dose of chutzpah.
I'm Suze, your well-informed,smart ass who's not afraid to
stand up and speak out, becausewhat's an envelope if not for
(56:26):
pushing?
Hey, stay inspired andinspiring.
Thank you.
When I was little, we knew what racists were.
There were enough people ofdifferent colors and different
languages, from different partsof the globe on East 5th Street
that you either were obviously agoonie or you weren't, and all
it took to be one of us wastotal acceptance that we were
all different, that's it.
So if someone brought a friendover you better make sure they
(00:23):
were like us, accepting, exceptsince most of us were actually
siloed by our differences duringthe daytimes, by yeshiva or
Catholic school, by mosque orkingdom hall.
Once they hit our block, youwere cool until you weren't.
So when did asking questionsstart to become the first sign
(00:48):
that you might be offending me?
And that's what we're going totackle today.
Hi, I'm Suze, coming to you witha dose of culture, values and
global citizenship and where wemight tackle those topics others
may consider off-limits.
A little about me.
I'm a busy Gen X mom who, quitefrankly, wanted to grow up like
(01:08):
the Brady Bunch.
But how could I, being raisedin the shadow of Schindler's
List?
So this means I've spent alifetime navigating these mixed
messages we get hit with daily.
You know those conversationswhere we wonder if it's safe to
speak our minds.
Can we share our experiences,voice our fears and concerns, or
(01:30):
should we just keep our mouthsshut?
Well, too bad.
I need to know, but I'm noexpert, so I'm going to schmooze
the experts and get theirthoughts.
Why so?
When we engage with our kids,colleagues or the countless
committees we interact with, wecan do it with competence,
kindness, confidence and maybe abit of humor.
(01:53):
If this sounds like your cup ofcoffee, welcome to Schmooze
with Suze.
My best friend, mary ElizabethEileen Myers Russo, was the
product of a nun who never gother habit and the most
incredible train conductor theNew York City Transit Authority
(02:14):
had ever encountered.
These two crazy kids ran off inthe 60s and raised my childhood
best friend in a world sodifferent than mine as the
grandkid of four Holocaustsurvivors.
So when she first walked thestairs into the Pollock
household, every question wasregistered with an expression of
awe and fascination.
(02:35):
It was clear this was purelyexperiential and educational.
She had to know why there wasmore Hebrew lettering than
English alphabet everywhere.
Why do we have two sets ofeverything in the kitchen?
Do my grandparents speak anyEnglish?
What are those numbers tattooedon your grandmother's arms?
Over the years the questionsgrew and I had to know about her
(02:59):
bunny village and tell me aboutJesus.
And of course, we know aboutthat.
We've heard of the shroud.
No, it's not bad, it'ssomething we talk about.
Wait, what does he teach?
Yeah, I guess I do follow yoursame rules.
Okay, I need to know about thePope.
How do they pick a Pope?
What does that smoke mean?
All I know is that all thosedecades, from preschool to
(03:23):
post-grad, we had so manyquestions.
And today I'm inviting my newfriend, reverend John Allen
Newman, because I love questionsas much as you do.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Welcome, glad to be here, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Thank you and welcome Welcome to Schmooze with Suze.
Thank you for the invitation.
So let's start with somequestions.
I would love to know.
I grew up on East 5th Street inBrooklyn, new York.
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I grew up in a bedroom community of
Philadelphia, pennsylvania,called Lansdowne, pennsylvania.
Some folks confuse it withLansdale, but it's Lansdowne.
Okay, it's actually about lessthan a mile from West
Philadelphia's border, very,very close In fact, when you go
across the train tracks and alot of communities are separated
by train tracks.
You look down towards the eastand you will see downtown
(04:12):
Philadelphia brightest day.
It's a beautiful, beautifulsight.
And so, again, like I said,it's a bedroom community of
Philadelphia and it was quitesegregated when I was growing up
and our block, again on theother side of the tracks, was
predominantly African-Americanand, as you would go north, on
(04:34):
the other side of the tracks,that was predominantly white and
when I grew up in Lansdowne itwas kind of very Dickensian.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It's kind of like a tale of two cities.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Very much so, and I went to a school that was
integrated, but I do rememberbeing bused in my sixth grade in
order to meet the desegregationdemand.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So how did that feel to be picked up from where you
were comfortable and you hadyour community, and then be told
that, for your own benefit,you're going to be sent
someplace else?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We really well.
Let me speak for myself.
I wasn't cognizant of that.
All I knew was oh, this was mynext school, so instead of
walking to school, which I woulddo every day, I was being bused
to another school, and,interestingly enough, that
school now is predominantlyAfrican-American.
It's amazing.
(05:32):
It's amazing how the migrationshifts of demographic patterns,
and so I grew up there and hadsome really good experiences.
Grew up there and had somereally good experiences, and I
(05:53):
recognized in retrospect more ofthe racism, or the racializing
of my existence as I lookedbackwards.
I was an athlete, so I playedfootball and baseball, and one
of the things that happened whenI played football was that I
participated, and I was avarsity letterman, so I was
pretty good, and so I discoveredwhat's something called pass,
punt and kick.
That was something that wasdone by the NFL.
You pass the ball, you get topunt the ball and kick the ball.
(06:15):
And it was a regional kind ofcompetition where I won it.
And I remember going to abanquet and one of the
Philadelphia Eagles and it wasPete Retzlaff I remember like
yesterday Poor memory You'retalking about like a long time
ago, right and so he came and Itook a picture with him and so
forth and so on.
(06:35):
And then during the Super Bowl,I happened to be watching it
and saw where all of the winnersof the past punt and kick
contest were there for thenational contest.
That's how I found out.
I knew nothing about that, andso that was a way that I
(06:58):
recognized that perhaps thecolor of my skin disallowed me
from being made aware of thatinvitation or that I was
entitled to participate.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Wow, and how old were you?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Oh, my goodness, I was probably at that point
around I'll say 13, 12, 13 yearsold, and that's how I realized
that, wow, but I won my region,I won it, but I never got the
invitation.
And so that's why I say inretrospect, I was able to kind
(07:32):
of discern, because even at thatmoment it didn't hit me.
It hit me later on, as I becamemore aware of the difference
between me and others predicatedon the racializing of my skin.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That's such an interesting idea, because I
often ask myself when do yourealize that other people are
different than you, or thatyou're different than other
people, and that becomes thelens with which you see that
situation?
In this case, you were seen asdifferent from other people.
You had never seen yourself asdifferent from them all this
time.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And that's and you know it's an interesting thing
because when we're having thisconversation you're saying
African-American and I rememberthe first time that I realized I
was aware of both that growingup on East fifth street we had
Nigerian neighbors, so they wereblack, they weren't
African-Americans, but we hadfriends who were third
generation and so they wereblack.
They weren't African Americans,but we had friends who were
third generation and so theywere, in fact, african Americans
(08:28):
.
And so as the years progressedwhich is how I started this
episode when did questionsbecome so uncomfortable that
we're too scared to ask them?
I now recognize the distinctionbetween those two words black
and African American.
I think a lot of people maybedidn't or don't, and so they
were too scared to ask and sothey just don't say either word.
(08:49):
Now, in your community right,you say the trail, the railroad
tracks.
I imagine it's probably like aCSX line, because I'm from New
York I had the F train that wasan above ground subway and
that's different.
Uh, above ground train.
That's different above groundtrain and that's separated.
Two neighborhoods Also thatseparated the ultra Orthodox
(09:11):
Jewish neighborhood from myneighborhood.
My parents had left theirenclave on the other side of the
tracks, very insular Europeanimmigrant Holocaust survivor
community that spoke mostlyYiddish as their first language.
So I me growing up on Eastfifth and I go back to East
(09:36):
fifth my whole life because thatwas the Genesis of being aware
of how lucky I was to live in amosaic, and so I've spent my
entire life since then trying tocapture that essence of how our
differences highlight oursuperpowers.
So when I met you, which wasduring that transition committee
(09:58):
right, it was during MayorDeegan's transition team and
every time you opened your mouthyou had this presence of how
your congregation fits in thegreater scheme of how
Jacksonville can be elevated andhow our communities can be
de-siloed, and I found like akindred spirit in that.
(10:22):
So in your neighborhood, didyou grow up with any Jewish
friends?
Did you meet Jewish peoplegrowing up In the neighborhood?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
No, but when I went to pastor my first church in
Philadelphia, I was a part offact.
I was a founding member of anorganization called Black Clergy
of Philadelphia and Vicinity.
I was the communicationsdirector, so I did all the media
stuff.
Now you got to remember, I'mnot surprised Penn Jordan, which
is Pennsylvania, jersey,delaware, that kind of
(10:51):
megalopolis had about, I think,maybe seven to 9 million people
that's how many people are inthat Penn Jordan area.
And so we had clergy from thePenn-Girardella area, but
primarily from Philadelphia, andwe dealt with social justice
issues.
And during the time when I wasin college, I was heavily
(11:13):
influenced by Dr Anthony Campolo, who helped us understand that
the gospel of Jesus Christwalked on two solid legs.
It wasn't just about where yougo when you die, it was about
how do you live out your faith.
And living out that faithfundamentally meant that you had
(11:34):
to connect with those who werecalled the least of these.
And so, for instance, webrought food when there was a
standoff between you may notremember this when there was a
group called Move inPhiladelphia and they were
firebombed, unfortunately, bythe mayor it happened to be an
African-American, mayor, wilsonGood.
(11:55):
It happened under his watch.
Well, we brought them food.
We dealt with the school crisiswhen the union and school board
couldn't get along and themayor couldn't make it happen,
and so 24 of us wore our robesand blocked traffic at Broad and
Vine Street, which is the mainartery in Philadelphia, and we
(12:18):
all got arrested.
24 of us did.
But the reason why I mentionedmy relationship with the Jewish
community was that we workedhand in hand with rabbis and
pastors to to deal with socialjustice issues, and so that's
what really helped me torecognize the kindred kind of
spirits we had towards justice.
(12:39):
Then also my mother.
Now here's another interestingthing.
I was born to very, veryelderly parents.
My father was 53 when I wasborn, my mother was 41.
And so if my father were alivetoday this is 2024, he would be
122 years old.
Wow, right, right.
So my mother is the one whoacclimated to me growing up in
(13:03):
West Virginia, which she did.
My father was from Lansdowne,but growing up in West Virginia,
she talked about and you mayhave heard me reference this how
, during the depression, theonly folks who had each other's
backs were blacks and Jews.
They took care of each otherbecause they were both being
oppressed.
And so it drew them together,and my mother would often in her
(13:27):
latter years, talk to me abouthow sad it was to her how in
many instances the black andJewish community had not been as
close as they once were.
Right, because she remembershow they took care of each other
yes, of each other.
So a lot of that was kind ofeducation in my mother's knee.
Also my own existentialexperience and working as a
pastor and working with Jewishleadership and bringing justice
(13:50):
to issues we were concernedabout in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, that sounds very organic and authentic.
I think you're right.
I think in Brooklyn, it wasn'tuntil the crown house riots that
there was a distinct division.
In fact, uh, back in theseventies, my dad's first
business partner partner was ablack man.
Um, and I don't remember, uncleJohn, I don't remember there
(14:19):
ever being a sense, and maybethat's why my parents did move
from that very insulated enclavebecause they were more
open-minded in that respect andto give us the opportunity to
see things differently.
Because, like I've come todiscover, you said in retrospect
hindsight is, you know, 2020 orit's LASIK surgery?
Good, but I didn't know howprivileged I was to grow up with
(14:45):
no concerns that someone wouldtake it the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And so now I said, before this episode kicked off,
that for me in the last decade,very intentionally understanding
that I moved to a place wheremy first historical tour was in
St Augustine and what did theyteach you about?
Where Martin Luther King Jr wasarrested at the hotel.
And then it triggered the civilrights act of 1964.
(15:14):
And I remember taking a classin a class in high school it was
an elective called decadesixties.
We thought what we were goingto be learning about was tie dye
and weed.
It was an easy a.
It turned out that, exactly whatyou just mentioned, they were
feeding us the history of socialjustice and they were teaching
(15:36):
us what the Torah taught usabout Sedeq, about justice, and
they were melding the two intosocial action and community
impact and global citizenship.
And so when you say the blackand the Jewish community, I
think possibly it's theconnection to faith, it's the
connection to the other thingsthat I'm learning more.
(15:57):
And again, I hope that you'renot going to take this the wrong
way and my listeners won't takethis the wrong way, but as I'm
exploring the city that I'mraising my kids in and I spend
more time out East, some of whatI have heard is people taking
pride in the community they grewup in, where the doctors were
African-American, their bankers,their insurance agents,
everyone in their communitywithin 15 minutes of walking
(16:20):
distance looked and grew up justlike them, same as me.
My community, my East fifthstreet, was the same, but my
doctor was Jewish and my bankerwas Jewish and it wasn't any
different.
And it wasn't until somewherein the nineties that I started
to hear people talk about howall Jews were in money or in
finance and I was like wait what?
(16:41):
But in these other communities,you know and my Hispanic
friends, they go to a Hispaniclawyer who's not Jewish.
When did we start to siloourselves in this space that for
me, I felt that the tragedythat happened outside your
(17:03):
congregation last year, thedollar general, was what gave us
a quick, swift kick of get yourunity back together.
Jacksonville, this is not whoyou are or whose you are, so
talk to me a little bit aboutyour congregation, where you fit
in, how global citizenship hasimpacted the way you preach, the
(17:23):
way you teach, the way you movethrough our brave, safe space.
A bold city with the potentialfor pilot possibilities.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Jacksonville could be so much more, and we hope that
it does become that One of thethings that we've often
mentioned.
I know that I have more thanonce, so I hope it's not like a
broken record, but we don't wantthe epitaph to be written on
the tombstone of Jacksonvilledied with great potential.
It has a lot of potential and,unfortunately, what has really
(18:01):
siloed many of us is our eitherlack of due diligence or lack of
information as to what realityis in our lives.
We have a tendency to have thisconfirmation bias where I want
to hear what I want to hear andit confirms what I already think
(18:21):
.
We don't challenge ourselvesenough anymore, and so, even
though there's nothing at allwrong with intra-community
support or the circulation ofdollars in a community that
enhances the community, that'snothing that should be
pejorative.
So if you have a Jewish doctoror a lawyer, whatever, in terms
(18:44):
of your professional access,there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem is when people thinkthat somehow, when you silo
that, that you're discountingother communities and you're not
discounting other communities.
It's just a part of who you areand that's okay.
Discounting other communitiesit's just a part of who you are
(19:05):
in this, that's okay.
The other aspect, I think andit goes back to the information
piece I was mentioning whenpeople are in these silos and
then they start hearing thatthere is some level of supremacy
to their silo than to others,and then they begin to look at
others through a different lens,that you're not just different,
(19:26):
which is diversity we all are,but I'm better that's a problem
and that's a sickness that we'renot really doing well in in the
country as a whole, inJacksonville in particular,
we're getting better than wewere, of course, but there's
still this kind ofdichotomization between us
(19:49):
versus them, because we becomeso siloed.
And when we challenge ourselvesto better information and that
is a challenge because, as MScott Peck says, you know, one
of the greatest challenges youhave in your life is
self-examination when we examineourselves and realize, you know
what, my perspectives aren'tbroad enough, there's more to
(20:10):
what I know than what I know,there's a great unknown out
there Then I challenge myself tofind out what that is.
And too many of us getcomfortable in our silos in our
communities, don't challengeourselves and then believe that,
well, my way is the right way.
It's not necessarily so.
People have different ways ofdoing things and we have to
(20:31):
appreciate the fact that, intheir authenticity, they're
being true to themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Right, yeah, and two things can be true at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Time and one doesn't have to be discounted.
And sadly, in many, in many,sadly today, very sadly today
I'm going to try to be carefulabout how I put this but in many
Christian communities there ishostility to diversity as
opposed to hospitable diversityI love that expression,
(21:02):
diversity and the reason why isbecause people believe that in
order for instance, I'll talkabout the church in order to be
a Christian, then you have tonow get rid of everything else
before that.
So I'm a Christian first,meaning that I'm not
African-American Christian, I'mnot Italian American, I'm not.
(21:24):
Whatever the case may be, I'mChristian because I follow Jesus
and what they don't recognize.
And this is going into somethingdeep called supersessionalism,
where the church replaces theIsrael right, the
supersessionalism which isreally not accurate
theologically speaking, and itcomes from a scripture where it
(21:45):
talks about you know the law andhow the two now have become one
and a new person has been, or anew man, so to speak, has been
created.
But what they don't realize isthat it's not talking about that
God wants us to get rid ofdiversity.
That is absolutely not.
The truth is that diversityshouldn't be seen through the
(22:05):
eyes of hostility, because Godmade all of us in his image.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But selim Elohim in the divine image, we all have it
.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And we say in Greek the imago dei.
Yes, so we've been made inGod's image.
In the beauty of diversity, inthe tapestry, in the landscape
of all of our pigmentation, orlack thereof, we complete the
imago dei.
We complete the image of God.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
It's a mosaic.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It is.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Why did everyone think that it was going to be
one color like all teal?
It's going to be all Duval teal.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
But here's the problem with colorblindness,
which people think is a virtue,but it's not.
It's a deception, because youalways default into the dominant
culture.
When you look for colorblindness, you look for color
sameness, you default intowhat's dominant.
Well, that would mean that forme, because the dominant culture
is white culture, that I wouldhave to be a Christian.
(23:00):
I've got to default into whiteculture and lose my blackness.
No, god, basically saying Icreated all of you to be a
mosaic, as you said, withoutyour contribution to the picture
, it's incomplete and so and so,therefore, I don't have to stop
being black, you don't have tostop being Jewish, you don't
(23:21):
have to stop being Hindu, youdon't have to stop being Indian.
Be who you are.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That is God, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Image of God complete .
Speaker 1 (23:29):
So, by the same token , one of the best trips I ever
took in my life was and I'vebeen to Israel many times, I've
been too, thankfully oh, it'sbeautiful.
What's so special is this tripcalled Momentum and it was a
women's trip, specifically formothers.
Their core message is unitywithout uniformity.
(23:54):
For a Jewish group to say unitywithout uniformity, it elevated
the entire experience ofconnectivity exponentially.
Because for me, the idea ofreligion I said my best friend
was Mary Beth.
We were, I mean, a nun withouta habit and some rabbi history.
(24:18):
The two of us would sit on thestoop and we would talk for
hours.
We were, and it ultimatelybecame not interfaith but
multi-faith.
Right, cause we didn't likeconverge.
She didn't become Jewish and Ididn't become Christian.
We celebrated each other'sexperiences Like I would
(24:39):
celebrate your birthday.
It's not my birthday, right,I'm coming to your party Doesn't
make it my birthday, I'm notturning your age.
That became okay Somewherealong the way.
I remember there was a littleconcern my mother had that there
would be someone attempting tomaybe try to convert us or there
would be some kind of, whichnever happened.
There was that respect andacknowledgement.
(25:01):
So, unity without uniformity.
Here we are, and I know thatwhen I think of my core values
and I ask myself three questionswhen it comes to any decision
Will it please God, is it goodfor my family?
Depending on the circumstance,the third question changes Is it
(25:23):
good for me or is it good formy community?
Okay, but the first questionwill it please God?
It's not a religious question.
God is inside of me.
God is not in a place ofworship, because I take God with
me everywhere I go, because Iask that question everywhere I
am.
If the answer is no, I don'thave to go to my second question
.
It doesn't matter.
Done, right.
The answer is yes.
Is it good for my family?
(25:43):
Now I get to think about whatdoes family mean?
You're my family.
Now that I see that we sharevalues in our community.
Our goal is to see us allthrive and for all of our
children to succeed and bringhope into the future.
Will it make me happy?
Well, is it good for mycommunity, right?
(26:03):
None of those are specificallyreligious questions about a
religion per se.
They're about our values.
So I want to talk about yourcongregation, because I watch
you online on Wednesdays, ifyou're interested.
Pastor Newman does an amazingservice.
That you can communicate viachat.
(26:25):
Is this something that youstarted organically during COVID
as a way to connect?
Did you find yourself as amedia influencer in this
religious space?
How did you navigate a pulpitto a personal experiential
connection that makes me want tocome and sit in a pew, but I
(26:49):
won't come without an invitationand I will bring my husband.
You're invited.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Actually, we we began .
I began being online wellbefore the COVID situation.
I would do on Sunday evenings Iforget what I used to call it.
It was from six until sevenevenings.
I forget what I used to call it.
It was from six until seven,but it was something about.
(27:16):
Well, let me give you anessence of what it was.
We would come online At thatpoint we had chat rooms.
You can remember that.
Yes, I do, okay.
So I had a chat room wherepeople could come on and I would
say this is very organic.
So, whatever you're dealingwith, whatever issues you're
dealing with, let's talk aboutit, and people will put all
kinds of stuff in there.
I would just deal with it rightthere.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
You would counsel.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I would, I would counsel, and I've always
had a proclivity or an interestmore so in neurotheology.
So it's the hybrid of neurologyand theology how the brain
works, because when you knowbetter you can do theology, so
how the brain works, becausewhen you know better, you can do
better.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Neuroplasticity it's the essence of spirituality.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You're growing.
Our brains are malleable andthey can be trained and taught
and changed because of themalleability.
So I would do that and I waspastoring, of course, at the
same time.
I would do that and I waspastoring, of course, at the
same time, but then on Sundaymornings we had our Facebook.
It was just Facebook at thatpoint and we would broadcast.
(28:17):
We were doing that before COVID, but of course it took on a
totally different level ofsignificance after we got into
COVID and we shut down because alot of our church is elderly
and half of our staff COVID tookfrom us.
So it was, it was real.
May their memories be for ablessing.
Thank you, it was real.
So we've had an online presence, but the Wednesdays kind of
(28:44):
transitioned into again back toalmost like that counseling
space.
But some theology, you know,some biblical concepts that
you've heard me talk aboutmishpat and tzedakah and other
things that are in the HebrewRelevant you talk about what's
relevant in social justice,which is always relevant.
(29:05):
Yes, and I've tried, in fact,almost this whole year I've been
really doing deeper dives andhelping people understand those
of us in the Christian communitythat the Bible that the New
Testament references is reallythe Septuagint.
You know, that was the Biblethey grew up on, that's all the
(29:27):
Bible they knew.
And even the Old Testamentwasn't canonized until 90 AD at
Jamnia near Joppa, and the NewTestament after 367, after the
encyclical letter of Athanasius.
So when they talk about allscriptures given by inspiration,
they're talking about the Torah, they're talking about the
Nidim, they're talking about theKetubim.
That's what they're talkingabout.
And so I've been helping ourcongregation understand the
(29:52):
roots.
If you really want tounderstand the beauty of our
faith, you got to dig deep intothe roots of Judaism, and that's
what we've been doing.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Oh, wow, that's what we've been doing.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And so it's been fun, because that's how I taught
them that the word that we liketo use for judgment is actually
justice.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, it's justice.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yes, we translate it judgment, right.
And so when we talk aboutjudgment begins at the house of
God right, it's about justicereally begins at the house of
God.
We like to make it into thiscondemnation thing.
In the Christian community welike to condemn people.
I mean, seriously, you knowwho's the flavor of the month,
(30:33):
you know.
I mean we're very easy tocondemn folk and don't realize
that the faith is.
It really comes down to theShema.
It just comes down to you, loveGod.
Do you love your neighbor asyou love yourself?
Yes, that's it, and that'sreally everything that Rabbi
Jesus taught.
Actually, that's it.
That's really what he taught.
Yes, that's it.
(30:53):
And that's really everythingthat Rabbi Jesus taught.
Actually, that's it.
That's really what he taught.
Yes, and?
And we get caught up into thepoliticization flying an
American flag or a Democrat orlots of geopolitics, lots of
extras, which is dangerousbecause we think we equate, that
our political perspective isthe perspective of God and God
always transcends politics.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
When I, when I was, I had the privilege of preaching
in Russia years ago in Moscowand at the first Baptist church
of Moscow, and and I attended, Iattended a round table
discussion at the Kremlinbelieve it or not, oh wow,
Between believers and atheists.
And so when I made it, I had inmy in my.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
In Russia, where atheism is like the standard of
you, have achieved all thingsbetter than everyone else.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah.
But the church, believe it ornot, was alive.
But they had a lot, of, a lotof restrictions on you, couldn't
, you couldn't go out and meetin proselytize.
You can't, you can't youcouldn't go out and meet in
proselytize, you, can't you?
Speaker 1 (31:51):
couldn't, you can't explain, you can't give hope,
you can't they don't right andthe red lights went off when
they saw my bible.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You could bring one by, but I brought it and the red
lights went off.
They went to all my bags andeverything was fun.
But what I'm saying is that I Irecognize there that when I
went to to testify, what do wehave in common?
What we have in common is thatnuclear missiles don't decide if
you're Democrat or Republican,whether you're Russian or
(32:18):
American.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Whether you're Israeli or Palestinian.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Israeli or Palestinian Bombs kill people,
bullets kill people and it wasso important in that moment when
I mentioned that and I preachedthis too that God transcends
government, and I'll neverforget this.
One of the Russians I hadbecome friends with I was there
almost three weeks.
One of the Russians I becamefriends with his name was Yuri.
(32:41):
We were going to get togetherfor what we had called the
American Gala, which is our lastthing we did, where we invited
everybody to come, and he calledme that next morning and said I
can't come.
I said why?
He said someone overheard ourconversation we were talking
about because he was agreeingthat God is above government and
(33:02):
he got in trouble for agreeingwith me in that conversation and
I recognized then that thattruth some can't handle because
they want to nationalize God fortheir purpose.
That's what Putin has done.
The Russian Orthodox Church isone of his biggest supporters
because they have nationalisticChristianity there and we're
(33:25):
trying to do that here and thatis really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So let's go back to the top of the show.
Is this why people are scaredto ask more questions?
Because what if someoneoverhears my question and takes
it as a statement and thencondemns me or cancels me or
judges me and I won't have achance to explain?
Or, in the case of some of thesituations lately, I always feel
(33:48):
like I'm defensive and I feellike I'm always having to
explain things and I'mexplaining to Western society
something that's Middle Easterncultures and values that goes
back generations and thousandsof years to tribalism that they
can't comprehend.
And then I feel a littleconcerned that, you know, do I
feel as though this is goingnowhere fast and are we going to
(34:12):
devolve?
And is my friend not going towant to see me again the next
day?
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, and sadly tribalism really is at the base
of what's going on now in theUnited States.
Let me try to say this assuccinctly as I possibly can.
There have been people in thiscountry for years who have been
kind of looked over, neglected,forgotten in terms of the
(34:37):
national political conversation,who found an identity in the
current former president andthat identity gave them a sense
of belonging, and allanthropologists and social
psychologists will tell you howimportant belonging is.
Maslow's hierarchy of needsbelonging is important, so they
(35:01):
found a sense of belonging.
That sense of belonging formany of them is so important
that, going back to your point,what if someone actually hears
me say you know you have a goodpoint about something that they
don't agree with in the group?
What if that person decides tothink for themselves and
(35:26):
recognize one of the tenets ofwhat they base their belonging
on is error?
Now they have to weigh.
Am I willing just by simplychanging my mind because I've
gotten better understanding andI've gotten the truth?
Am I willing to lose my friendsif I let them know it?
(35:48):
Am I willing to lose my churchif I let them know it?
Am I willing to lose my churchif I let them know it?
Am I willing to lose my familyconnections and deepest
relationships who are all partis no.
(36:10):
So they see their values tobelonging to a group so they can
stay connected to what has beenlonging and missing in their
lives for so long reasons whypeople are where they are.
(36:30):
But one of the deepest reasonswhy people are caught up in some
of this toxicity is that theyhave found an identity in
something that's larger thanthemselves and they're willing
to see their values and not evenhear anything that could
possibly contradict what theyalready believe, because of what
they think it might cost them.
So they just stay.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I agree with you a hundred percent and I see this
on both sides.
When I look at the collegecampuses today, that's exactly
what I see.
I see in a lot of circumstancesthere are students who have
started to use critical thinkingand they're scared to get out
of this because they're so farin and they feel accepted in
(37:13):
ways that they didn't before.
Because, for whatever reason,did we get to a place where
people didn't feel comfortableenough to be their true,
authentic self, because theywere scared you wouldn't accept
them in the first place, firstplace.
And now you've become a versionof everyone who's the loudest
person around you, and thelouder the voices get, the more
(37:39):
that echo chamber gets echoier.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
How do you find your way out in that case?
Is there a way out?
That's tough, susie, becauseoftentimes people think, because
they're louder, that that makesthem more right, and it doesn't
.
Let me just say this aboutwhat's happening on college
campuses Nobody and I certainlyunderstand this as an
(38:04):
African-American, no one shouldfeel the emotional weight of a
lack of safety because of whothey are.
No one, no Jewish studentshould walk across the yard and
be frightened for their livesbecause they're Jewish.
(38:27):
And if that's not vociferouslydefended and opposed, that's a
problem.
And we can talk about freespeech all we want, but if free
speech is used to incite harmingsomeone else, then that can't
(38:48):
be a part of our First Amendment.
We've got to make sure thatpeople are protected in their
person, in their bodies and even, to a large degree,
psychologically, the emotionalweight that is on a lot of
Jewish students because incampuses they don't feel safe
anymore and it's been madepretty obvious that they're not
(39:10):
being protected by theinstitutions that they should
have been protected by, andthat's real.
And I think that one of thethings that we as
African-Americans can do is wecan identify what it feels like
not to feel safe, and I'vewatched some not all, but some
of the conversations in campus,not campus.
(39:34):
I'm sorry for Congress from thedifferent presidents, and some
of them were trying to walk thisline between first amendment
rights and free speech and soforth.
But when it comes to the safetyof your students, you've got to
take action.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
You can't just simply say, well, it's their first
amendment right, just as youcan't go into a theater right
and yell fire.
Can I ask you a question?
Sure, because this is how I wastriggered.
I didn't think about this whenI married my husband.
I told you I lived on Eastfifth street and I grew up in a
uh, family that was very Zionistand very proudly Jewish
(40:11):
identifying.
And so because all of my youknow friends in my block didn't
care that we were so proudly I'mnot even kidding when Halloween
came and someone rang my belland said trick or treat, my
mother would say we don'tcelebrate that.
That's how Jewish we weregrowing up.
Now I like throw candy at kids.
From that trigger, that scar, Ijust unlocked a core memory.
(40:34):
But here's the first thing thatoccurred to me.
It didn't start like that.
When I first saw that dollargeneral shooting, you know, I
realized that in Orlando, anhour and a half, two hours from
here, there were proud boys thatwere marching the suburbs.
You remember that last summerand, like you said, that feeling
(40:56):
of belonging.
Why were they marching in thesuburbs?
Because there are kids who haveno friends and there are teens
and there are young adults whoare in their basements.
Well, there's no basements inFlorida but they're playing
video games and that was a callto them.
Here's more misfits like me whodon't have right.
They were there and the firstthing I thought of is why is the
black community not screamingtheir heads off?
(41:18):
Why am I so scared because ofmy Holocaust survivor
grandparents that they're comingfor my kids?
Doesn't this scare the bejesusout of you?
Because that was the firstthing I thought.
If it became so easy to round upthe Jews, hitler said well,
let's not stop there.
(41:38):
There's gypsies and let's notstop there.
There's political and let's not.
There's artists and gays andthere's disabilities.
Right, it didn't stop with theJews.
So when people on campusesright Now, as like you said, it
changed the landscape when Ifirst saw people and I thought,
(41:59):
ok, this is a mosaic of people.
But then when I started toreally look at the campuses and
it looked like with all duerespect to my privileged white
American friends, a bunch ofprivileged white American
students who didn't really havethat much to lose to lose, I
(42:21):
didn't see as many black kids orAfrican-American kids or
minority students on thoseencampments because they had to
weigh what that tarnishing ontheir record would look like in
the future perhaps, but whyweren't there more people that
were screaming this is racism,this is just straight racism.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, I mean you were, you haveand you do.
(42:41):
And, on behalf of my family, Ithank you because I didn't think
for one second if I had to hidemy kids which is, by the way, a
question every Jewish motherasks herself who would hide my
kids?
I will be at your congregationwith my two children and you and
lady O will be the de facto.
They're wonderful children.
They don't clean up afterthemselves.
(43:02):
I'm telling you now, but yousaid outright who you are and
whose you are.
You are a child of God.
You stand for social justice,truth and faith, and I said oh
good, where was?
Was everyone else?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I think particularly the african-american community,
and we're not monolithic, as youknow that, but many, many, many
of us in the african-americancommunity identify, in this
particular season in which welive in culture, with the, the
oppression of the palestinianpeople.
That's the reality.
Okay, that's, that's really thereality of the Palestinian
people.
That's the reality of it, that'sreally the reality of it.
And oppression as anoverarching meta-narrative.
(43:45):
When you look at oppression inthe world, we who have been so
oppressed easily identify withothers who we see are being
oppressed or feel are beingoppressed, and then no one seems
to be necessarily going to the,the derivation or the root of
(44:12):
it.
It's, it's what's happening now, and so you know.
And this kind of leads tosomething else which is really
important.
Were you there with at the, thevigil, rabbi Lippeners?
Yes, okay, yes, okay.
(44:33):
And we get so easily caught upon sides that we don't realize
the only way to really win ispeace, yeah, and are we willing
to pay peace's price?
Because it's a high price, andthat's the ultimate question.
(44:57):
Are we willing Because peacesays here's the price, and
that's that's the ultimatequestion?
Are we willing Cause P sayshere's the price?
The price is you're not goingto get everything you want, but
the price that you pay is peoplestop dying as a result.
Are you willing to pay thatprice?
And on both sides the answerclearly is not yet.
(45:17):
And so how do we find that?
As we saw that nightbeautifully, I mean, and this is
something about the receptivityand I learned this first in
Israel, the receptivity in theJewish community of you know, I
didn't realize there wereIsraeli, arab as rate um uh,
(45:37):
israeli, um, arab, israelis.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Went over there.
I said that what Right?
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Oh yeah, wait until you meet an Asian Israeli
speaking Hebrew, with a Chineseaccent.
I will take you to Chinesedinner in Jerusalem.
But every shape color size andevery shape color size, and that
is something that people don'trecognize when it comes to
Israel, when it comes to Arabs,when it comes to Jews, I went to
Haifa and Arabs and Jews havinglunch together.
(46:05):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
It was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Ahmad and Salim is my husband's number one humus area
, which is a pizzeria for humus.
Yeah, ahmad and Salim, yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
And so you know people forget that Ishmael and
Isaac eventually came togetherwhen they buried Abraham, and
and that's what my prayer isthat eventually we'll stop
saying who wants to be moreright and like what is it going
(46:37):
to take for us to bury this sowe can start living in peace?
And I don't know what thatprice is, but that's the price
that peace asks both sides topay in order to stop the
conflict.
We heard it that night thatarguing on both sides is not
really bringing peace.
You got to fight for peace.
Peace is the only way out.
And I think then you startgetting into other aspects of
(47:00):
the politicization of it, and Idon't want to get into that.
But sometimes the tail wags thedog and people decide war is
better than peace because if Iget peace then they're going to
remember how bad I am and kickme out.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I won't go there anyway there's a whole slew of
things, right.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
There's a whole slew of things.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
But here's the bottom line Will it please God, is it
good for my family and will itmake me happy or is it good for
the community If we had todistill it down to those three
questions?
Is there a basis for somethingthat takes us, like you said,
above politics?
(47:41):
Right, when I started thispodcast, that was the purpose.
What was above politics?
Global citizenship.
I wanted us to go back to thebasis, to SEDEC, to justice, and
that superseded all of thethings that divided us.
It was sort of like, like youknow, we say the gut instinct,
(48:02):
because you feel it before yourbrain can confirm or deny it,
because those neurons they livethere from when you were created
in the womb and so if itdoesn't feel right, it's
probably wrong.
Why is that so simple and yetso difficult to attain?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
I think it goes back to what I'm saying before,
because we get vested inpositions and we get connected
on a visceral level to yourpoint, to where we just will
protect that visceral decisionwe've made, because when it's
that deep, it becomes anidentifier and when it becomes a
(48:47):
part of your identity, you canactually get to a point where,
if I give this up, do I know whoI am anymore?
And so people hold on to things, even things that are toxic.
I think also and COVID couldhave done this the thing that
(49:11):
really is going to bring peopletogether so that the sky and the
land because, as you know, inTohupovohu, you know, the sky
and the land come back together.
Yes, God wants it to.
Something has to threaten allof us enough to lay down our
stupidity, oh my gosh.
Something has to say to us whoa, we're fighting about what, and
(49:34):
this can kill all of us outwhat, and this can kill all of
us.
Until we have something thatreally causes us to weigh the
consequences of our behavior, wewill continue the behavior.
Oh my gosh, COVID could havedone it, but it got politicized
because people were fearful oflosing power, fearful of losing
(49:56):
power.
And then it was as we saw youknow started to spiral.
Yeah, it started to spiral godown into this away from
humanity away from it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
And into positional and political.
And here we are all this timelater, and I mean, it reminds me
right, we say I've often, youknow, talked about how, during
the time of Noah, why is it thatGod decided to just get rid of
everything and with the flood,but not that tower of Babel?
The tower of Babel, they werebuilding it to fight God.
(50:31):
They were going to take on Godand he said, no, them, I'm not
taking down.
Why?
Because they were workingtogether for a common cause, but
at the time of Noah they werenot.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
That is an interpretation.
An interpretation they weretrying to actually get rid of
the diversity and be all one.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Like homogenous yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
That is not how I made you.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
That's not how I made you.
That's not how I made you Smackthat right, and I like your
interpretation too.
It is a privilege.
Can you tell our guests wherethey can see you in person,
where they can find you online,because I look forward to your
worship.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Oh, thank you.
We are on every Sunday morningat nine o'clock on Facebook or
YouTube the sanctuary at MountCalvary, just as it sounds, and
on Wednesday evenings, facebook,youtube.
Oh, also forgot to mention thatif you download Holy Connection
TV on Roku, you can watch usthere too, and soon you'll be
(51:36):
able to watch us on Apple TV aswell.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Oh, fabulous.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, so, but right now primarily Facebook, YouTube,
and you can catch us onWednesday evenings at seven.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
And we have a blast.
As you know, we have a really.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
I enjoy it.
I really enjoy it, and I willsay this if you are looking for
an intelligent, empathetic andvery, very passionate keynote
speaker, I cannot recommend youmore than it's such a privilege
to learn from you and with you,and I feel called to have you
(52:12):
back, I hope, next season forcontinued conversation.
It's such a such a privilege.
So is there anything upcomingthat you want to share?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, actually we're having a community fair on the
8th and we're going to havedifferent vendors and different
services available to people inthe community.
So we'd love to have peoplecome out June 8th.
And yeah, june the 8th fromnine until noon.
And you know, I forgot tomention that at Ahavath you said
(52:46):
we've worked with them in thepast and I meant to mention that
.
When we talk about myrelationship with the community.
Here we've actually exchangedpulpits.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
I think it was Rabbi Leaf at that point when we did
that.
But we're talking to Maya.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Rabbi Glasser, yes, about Pulpit Swap.
That's exactly it.
So we talked about all of theseinteresting things, which is
why I'm very excited to come andvisit you in person.
See, not just remotely, but Ilike to be there in person.
I have a hat and everythingpicked out.
I've been watching the videos.
I know, okay, I understand theassignment.
I would really appreciate ifyou could send my regards to
(53:29):
your beautiful bride andcongratulate her on her recent
yes, she got her doctorate aswell, right?
Speaker 2 (53:35):
And she's in law school.
Yes, she'll finish law schoolin May of next year, this time
next year God bless.
Jd-mba hybrid.
Yes, and she's right now inGhana.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
She's in Africa.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
She's in Africa for two weeks.
She's been there with a part ofa cohort from Southern
University, the MBA program.
Wow, there's a program overthere, a corresponding school,
and so they have this, you know,sister school kind of thing,
and so she's over there throughthe MBA programs.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
Oh, we're going to have to do a conversation about
couples and how to engage.
That would be great.
I'll bring Ben on.
We'll do a couple's talk, right?
I know usually they they talkabout sports.
They don't like to talk aboutthe spiritual stuff like us.
They talk yeah, ravens, browns.
I don't know, it's not my deal,I don't know anything.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
Now.
My wife is from Ohio, so youmentioned the Browns.
She's all in.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yes, I know, that's it.
That's it.
I don't know anything aboutanything.
You want to talk about God andcommunity?
I'm your girl.
You want to talk about football?
That's my current husband.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
That'd be fun.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yes, I look forward to it.
Thank you, Pastor, for beinghere.
It's always such a privilege.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Thank you for the opportunity and bless you Thank
you, and now it's time for ourhonorable mention.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Menj is the Yiddish word for a person of integrity
who does the right thing becauseit's the right thing to do.
Today's honorable mench is DrTracy Polson.
You might be familiar with DrTracy Polson from Mayor Donna
Deegan's administration, but Iam familiar with Dr Tracy Polson
because she is an advocate formental health.
She has made an impact in someof the most underserved
(55:18):
communities here in the citywhere I'm raising my children.
She has advocated for theunhoused, for the chronically
ill, for the addicted, for theinfected, for the needy, for the
foster, for the recovering.
Dr Polson has not stoppedadvocating to, for and about
(55:40):
every part of Jacksonville, andnow we are fortunate enough to
watch her engage in a number ofgrants and opportunities to
enhance us, because a risingtide lifts all ships.
If you know of someone who isthe kind of mensch who should
get an honorable mention, sendme a note at schmoozewithsuesorg
(56:03):
or drop me a line on Instagram.
That's going to do it for ustoday.
Thanks for sticking around.
Make sure to subscribe toSchmooze with Suze on YouTube
and follow me on Instagram toget your daily dose of chutzpah.
I'm Suze, your well-informed,smart ass who's not afraid to
stand up and speak out, becausewhat's an envelope if not for
(56:26):
pushing?
Hey, stay inspired andinspiring.
Thank you.
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