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November 19, 2023 37 mins

If you are working with kids with anger difficulties, then you do not want to miss this episode of School Behaviour Secrets, featuring Nicola S. Morgan (an expert in anger management).

Join us in this episode of School Behaviour Secrets for practical insights and a step-by-step guide to reshape the way we approach anger management with students. Learn from real-life success stories and gain valuable strategies to help your kids get on top of their emotions.

Important links:

To watch Nicola's TED Talk

Visit the NSM Training and Consultancy website for courses on anger management

Get your FREE Beacon School Support guide to helping children manage their anger

Get our FREE SEND Behaviour Handbook

Download other FREE SEMH resources to use in your school: https://beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/resources

Get NEW behaviour and SEMH strategies in our FREE webinar!
Use this link to join our free webinar on Tuesday 21st October 2025 and walk away with strategies and insights you can immediately apply to your own class and students. We're limited to 300 seats to book yours ASAP.  Register now.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon Currigan (00:00):
If you're working with kids with anger

(00:01):
issues, then you do not want tomiss this episode of school
behaviour secrets because we'regoing to share how to get a
successful anger managementprogramme up and running in your
school. Which strategies aremost effective at helping kids
get on top of their emotions andstick with behaviour change and
look at the skills that you willneed as an adult to do that,

(00:23):
well, all the aim of gettingyour students unstuck with
strong emotions. Let's jump in.
Welcome to the school behavioursecrets podcast. I'm your host
Simon Currigan. My co host isEmma Shackleton and we're
obsessed with helping teachers,school leaders, parents and of
course students when classroombehaviour gets in the way of
success. We're going to sharethe tried and tested secrets to

(00:45):
classroom management,behavioural Special Needs, whole
school strategy and more allwith the aim of helping your
students reach their truepotential. Plus, we'll be
letting you eavesdrop on ourconversations with thought
leaders from around the world.
So you'll get to hear the latestevidence based strategies before
anyone else. This is the schoolbehaviour secrets podcast.

(01:07):
Hi there. My name is SimonCurrigan and welcome to this
week's episode of schoolbehaviour secrets. I like to
think of this podcast as theequivalent of teaching country
dancing lessons in primaryschools. No one's quite sure why
it's still going on. But once itstarts somehow you can't but
stop and watch. Equal partsmesmerising and confusion. I'm

(01:27):
joined as ever today by my cohost, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma.

Emma Shackleton (01:30):
Hi, Simon,

Simon Currigan (01:31):
You ever teach country dancing in schools or
remember having to do countrydancing in school as a child?

Emma Shackleton (01:36):
Yes, I used to love teaching country dancing. I
had a mixed tape of countrydancing hits on an actual
cassette and we used to wheelout these huge stereo system on
the trolley to play thecassette.

Simon Currigan (01:53):
This is a big reveal. I wasn't expected it to
go in this direction.

Emma Shackleton (01:56):
I've got news for you not 21! Anyway, why are
you asking me to relive mycountry dancing teaching days?
How is this relevant to today'sepisode?

Simon Currigan (02:06):
It's not in any way shape or form. I'm just
going down a rabbit hole and Iam so glad I did. So let's start
by asking you a relevantquestion to the podcast. Yes,
please write according to asurvey by teacher tap what
classroom behaviours maketeachers the most frustrated?

Emma Shackleton (02:21):
Okay, frustrating behaviours from
children. The things I used tofind really frustrating were
when children hurt each other,or when they broke stuff, but
also things like shouting outinterrupting, telling tales Go
on, then what did teacher tapfind out from their survey?

Simon Currigan (02:42):
So the most common answers were talking, low
level disruption, which is aninteresting one because that can
mean a variety of things, Iguess, rudeness and answering
back and one person replied,students making stupid noises
which you can't pinpoint. So youcan't easily sanction. I think,
a lot of sympathy in the roomfor that one.

Emma Shackleton (03:03):
I was so tempted to start humming while
you were talking. Okay, so tellus Simon What is the link to the
show this week?

Simon Currigan (03:12):
Well, this week we're going to look at the topic
of how to teach students notteachers, anger management
strategies with our guests andNicola s. Morgan will talk about
what anger actually is, whichanger management strategies
actually work, and how to getchildren to stick with behaviour
change programmes like angermanagement courses, it's gonna

(03:32):
be so full of information thatyou can start using immediately.

Emma Shackleton (03:36):
This really resonates with what we see in
school as well, doesn't it? Sofor those of you that don't
know, Simon and I work dailywith primary and secondary
schools across Birmingham andthe West Midlands, and a lot of
our work is helping teachers tohelp children to understand and
cope with the big feelings thatthey are having. We know that if

(03:59):
kids are not regulated, they'renot ready to learn. So if you
are working with children whoare struggling with their
emotions, we've got a freedownload that can help.

Simon Currigan (04:10):
It's called How to help children manage anger
and other strong emotions and itwill take you through one
approach called EmotionalScaling to help your students
improve their emotionalawareness and better regulate
strong emotions like anger oranxiety or fear or frustration.

Emma Shackleton (04:26):
It's full of practical techniques and gives
you the resources to print outand use with your students. So
if you want to get your hands ona free copy of the guide, check
out the episode description forthis episode. We'll put a direct
link to the download page there.
So all you've got to do is openup your podcast app and tap
directly through

Simon Currigan (04:48):
And if you're enjoying school behaviour
secrets don't forget to tapsubscribe in your podcast app so
you never miss another thing. Bysubscribing you'll experience
the same level of satisfactionas a penguin used just
discovered an endless conveyorbelt stocked full of fish and a
remote control for the NorthernLights, hit subscribe and
prepare for a breathtakingjourney of satisfaction.

Emma Shackleton (05:09):
And now here's Simon's interview with Nicola S.
Morgan.

Simon Currigan (05:14):
Today I'm really excited to welcome Nicola S.
Morgan to the show, Nicola is aninternational educational
consultant who's just released aTED talk entitled Unfinished
Business, delaying the urge togive up. She's also a teacher
and author, with over 20 yearsexperience working in a variety
of early years primary andsecondary settings, including

(05:34):
mainstream and special needsschools. During this time, she
has developed a reputation forsuccessfully managing the most
challenging classes and pupils,as well as motivating and
inspiring staff to helpimplement change and ensure
sustainability. Consequently,She now runs training courses
for schools and parents, and isoften invited to speak at
conferences on resilience,behaviour change and effective

(05:58):
ways of engaging with families.
Nicola, welcome to the podcast.

Nicola S Morgan (06:02):
Oh, wow, thank you so much for that intro.
Simon. It makes me soundfantastic, doesn't it.

Simon Currigan (06:07):
You've already got a range of experience. And
what we're going to want to talkto you today about in particular
is the subject of anger. Butbefore we get into how we
support pupils with angerissues, I want to open by asking
what actually is anger? And whatis it for?

Nicola S Morgan (06:24):
That's a really good question to start off with,
well, you know, what is one ofour five emotions, so we have
sadness, happiness, fear,disgust. And of course, we have
anger. And I don't know if youagree or not, but we all feel
angry. Sometimes I can probablythink of quite a few examples
over the summer holidays where Itipped into that area. But

(06:47):
there's normally a very, verygood reason why we feel about
way, and in most extreme cases,you know, we does pull on our
emotions, I guess it can driveus into that kind of belief of I
need to fight for justice, aboutwhatever it is. And it can also
drive us to say hurtful things,not very nice things, and in

(07:07):
some cases, to people that welove, and we really care about.
So what purpose does that angerthen have? So they experienced
So really, anger is perfectlynormal, like I said, is one of
our five emotions, but it canstart to become a problem. When
you express it through unhelpfuland disrespectful behaviour,
that's when it really becomesproblematic. And with all my

(07:27):
work in schools over the years,and I'm working with teachers
now and I've just done a fewconferences for the N A, S U W
T, I will get it right, fortheir NQT's during the summer.
This is one that normally comesup. It's the disrespect that
come from these outbursts thatpeople are really struggling
with. But ultimately, when we'relooking at anger, it is a

(07:51):
secondary emotion. Now, I liketo get to the root causes of
things. And typically, weexperience a primary emotion
first, which could be fear, lossor sadness, but because of these
emotions, they can start tocreate feelings of
vulnerability, which is not agood place for some children, a
loss of control, and it cansometimes make us feel very,

(08:14):
very uncomfortable. And one wayof attempting to deal with these
feelings is to shift into thatanger mode. Not always not for
all children, but some willshift into that anger mode.
sadness, say, and they'refinding that hard to cope with?
They shift to anger? Is thatsecondary emotion? Is that

(08:36):
correct as you're explaining it?
Why does the body do that? Whatis the point of it?
It's ultimately to protect us,to protect us from danger. And
yes, you know, we might think,well, actually, there's no
danger around us right now. Butthat might not be that child's
interpretation of theirenvironment and the people in
their environment. But also, itcan help us know when things are

(08:56):
maybe unfair or wrong, and itcan trigger us in that way. Now,
there's a very good definitionto anger that I always hold on
to, especially when I'm runningtraining courses on it. And it's
reading from the dictionary ofMedicine, Nursing and Allied
Health. And it goes like this,and I think it just about sums
it up. Anger is a feeling oftension and hostility, usually

(09:17):
caused by anxiety aroused by aperceived threat to oneself,
possessions, rights, or values.
Now within the schoolenvironment, possessions, mobile
phone, pens, pencils, that kindof thing. Don't take them
without permission, please.
Because again, that couldtrigger an anger outburst.

Simon Currigan (09:37):
I saw some really interesting research on
the social side of anger, likewhen someone threatens your
social position in thehierarchy, and they're like
pushing you down that hierarchy.
We don't like it partly because,you know, 50,000 years ago, we
will walk in the savanna inthese small groups of 20/25
people. The lower down thesocial hierarchy were the less
likely you were to getopportunities like great food,

(09:58):
great water. Anyone else couldhave you a lower down in the
pecking order, and it actuallyaffected your chances of
survival. And when you see kidslike you can see when they're
put down by someone else, youcan almost see that ancient
reaction being like, don't allowthis don't allow this. When we
think about pupils in schooltoday, you'll see some kids who
are able to manage theseemotions more successfully. And
some kids who get angry really,really quickly what's happening

(10:21):
there?

Nicola S Morgan (10:24):
Now, we haven't got a visual here, there. So
we're going to use ourimagination for this, okay. And
this is called a time intensitymodel. And the time intensity
model looks a little bit like amountain with a sharp peak at
the top, and we've got ourbaseline behaviour, which is
nice and calm, it's nice andchilled, but then there could be
a trigger. And if there's anadditional trigger, the

(10:46):
behaviour could escalate. Andthen they can get to the peak of
that mountain, which is crisispoint, then they'll gradually
calm down, it could take a fewhours a day, maybe two days, in
some cases, it just depends onthe child, they could dip into a
possible period of depression,and then they'll go back to that
baseline behaviour. Now, thenwhat we're starting to notice,

(11:09):
and what I've noticed, to behonest with you, I've been in
education for 25 years, but Ithink since the pandemic and
notice it an awful lot moreright now. And that is the
children, some children are notcoming into school at baseline,
they're not coming into schoolrelaxed, they are coming in at
either being triggered, or theescalation level. So that's not

(11:32):
very far off getting to thatcrisis point where they're
getting into that anger mode.
Now, we don't know what goes onoutside of school, it could be
maybe domestic violence withinthe home, it could be maybe
they've got bullied on the way,I don't know what it is. But
what I always encourage schoolstaff to do is that you know
what we don't know. So this do ablanket approach, and try to

(11:54):
reduce those stress levels asmuch as we possibly can, either
at the beginning of the day, orif we're secondary at the
beginning of every lesson justto get them as close to that
baseline as we possibly can. Soif somebody does take one of
their possessions withoutpermission, they're not right at
the top of that mountain headinginto crisis, they've got a

(12:17):
little bit more leeway. Andwe're setting them up for
success rather than failure.

Simon Currigan (12:24):
What might that look like in a sort of practical
sense in the classroom?

Nicola S Morgan (12:27):
As far as reducing stress levels?

Simon Currigan (12:29):
Yeah, yeah,

Nicola S Morgan (12:30):
Well, we can do lots of things there. Like from
a primary level, the morningmile is great. Anything to do
with brainstem calmingactivities, running, drumming,
walking, that kind of thing isreally going to help in this
particular situation, lots ofschools now, including
secondary, bringing in a type oftherapy dog, which is great as
well, just to have that littlebit of time just to calm things

(12:50):
down. Also sorting activitiesnaturally age appropriate. So if
we were going to have sortingactivities, for the little ones,
I put in the green blocks in onecontainer, the red blocks in the
other sorting activities aredesigned to calm the brain down.
It's a little bit and I don'tknow about you Simon, but if
I've had a pretty hectic week, Igo home on a Friday. And I'm

(13:15):
pretty stressed. So I'm prettyuptight, I start cleaning the
house, I feel great, becauseagain, cleaning the house is a
sorting activity, and it startsto calm the brain down. A
primary sorting activity couldbe for example, asking a child
to link all the same colourpaper clips together. And so
they're sorting, sorting,sorting, calming, calming,

(13:35):
calming. And for secondary, itcould be a kind of jigsaw puzzle
or movable puzzle that's relatedto the learning outcomes of the
lesson before. So anything to dowith sorting is going to bring
those levels down and just toget as close to that baseline as
we possibly can. And you knowwhat, I'm going to mention
another one now, and it's aboutseating. Seating for children

(13:56):
within the classroom, whateverage group we're looking at here,
but I'm gonna give an examplenow of little ones on a carpet,
because I think everybody canvisualise this one a little bit
more. So I'm sat, sat down,ready to read a story. And I've
got a class full of children infront of me sat down, and I've
got one particular child that isconstantly turning around. And

(14:18):
all I'm saying is, you know, youneed to look this way. You need
to listen to the story, wrongthing to do, that child might be
constantly turning around,because they feel under threat.
They don't know who's behindthem. They don't know what's
going on. So in thosesituations, let's move that
child to the back of the room.
Because now the only thingbehind me is a wall. There's no
threat. I can see everyone infront of me. I can see the door

(14:41):
of who's coming in and who'sgoing out and I can see my
teacher, woof. I can bring thosestress levels right down.

Simon Currigan (14:50):
And now, now they can focus because that
stress has dropped. So when apupil starts to show a recurrent
anger problem not a one offoutbursts but an issue that's,
you know, coming up more thanonce, where can we begin to help
them recognise that there's aproblem and help them begin
managing their emotions moresuccessfully?

Nicola S Morgan (15:08):
I always like to use the phrase I notice. And
I like to give a runningcommentary I do this, whether
they've done something verypositive, or whether I'm
concerned about something orwhether something's happened
that's quite negative is I'venoticed, because some children,
some adults, we just don'tsometimes know what we're
actually doing and to have amirror held up to us can be

(15:29):
quite helpful at times. Sothat's the first thing that I
would do. And then the nextthing that I would do then is
and something that we run as faras NSN training and consultancy
is concerned is a course calledThe Explosive Pupil. Now, in
this course, we give a 10session programme. And I always
encourage members of staff thatif you've got a particular child

(15:49):
that you do have concerns overand naturally we want to have a
look at more than one child, youknow, those that have got
potential to maybe be a littlebit more triggered than normal,
then it is a good idea to justput them on a programme can
happen during lunchtime breaktime or certain times during the
day. So what we're doing now iswe're teaching the desired

(16:12):
behaviour, that's what we'redoing, we're noticing where they
need some help. And we'reutilising a programme such as
that to skill them up. And Ithink that really is the best
way to do it. Rather than kindof dipping in dipping out
firefighting, troubleshooting,that kind of thing is to just
have this programme. Now, someschools will run it for 10 days,

(16:34):
others will run it once a week,it just depends on that
particular child in thatparticular situation. But it
gives them the ability toreflect it gives them the
ability to practice lots ofstrategies, lots of techniques,
and just to notice stuff inthemselves and notice stuff in
others as well, which I think,well, we've had a massive
success rate with it anyway. Soit must work.

Simon Currigan (16:56):
What strategies have you found are more
successful for helping thosepeoples change their response to
strong emotion. So before wewere talking about things that
we can do as the adultsproactively to reduce their
baseline stress, so they don'tget angry in the first place.
But once that child isexperiencing that anger, what
kind of strategy is going to onthe reactive end? Have you found

(17:18):
a successful?

Nicola S Morgan (17:18):
Well, the one that I'm going to, the one that
comes straight to my mind now,the one that has worked
incredibly well, and this iswith all age groups, and
including adults. Because I'veused this one myself as well.
It's about identifying thatinitial feeling, they've been
triggered, what is that feelingthat feeling that I feel in

(17:38):
rage, things are boiling up,whatever it is, but the thing
is, it's very, very hard to kindof pinpoint that when a
situation has happened. So whatI tried to get them to do is
either draw a gingerbread man orfor the little ones they can
draw around each other. So we'vegot a really big life sized
version of themselves. And Iasked them to pinpoint on that

(17:59):
outline, where on their body,can they feel it? Where do they
normally feel it now for me,it's in my neck, and it's in my
head, so we get them to pinpointit, we get them to draw them,
sometimes they'll just draw acircle around the neck area, or
the head area or the stomacharea, whatever it is. And
sometimes they'll draw somethingelse, that's fine, then what I
do is I ask them to give it acolour now then when I feel it

(18:22):
in my neck, it deep deep red,that's the colour that I've got.
But when I'm working withchildren, sometimes they'll say
green or blue or purple, it'sentirely up to them. Now then
what we've done now is we'veworked out where on their body
they feel it when they've gottriggered. So now this just
gives us a fantastic way in sorather than saying to a child

(18:43):
first thing in the morning, Hey,how are you feeling today? You
okay? The normal responses?
Yeah, right doesn't really giveme that much information here at
all. And a phrase that I tend touse a lot of is Predict in order
to Prevent. I've got noinformation here in order for me
to do this. But now I can say tothem, Hey, how's your neck
feeling? Or how's your headfeeling? What colour is it?

(19:06):
How's your belly feeling? Haveyou still got that green colour,
is it a darker green? is itlight green? Now we're starting
to delve into it a little bitmore. We're having a
conversation about it. And we'rebringing it to the forefront and
they're thinking, Yeah, thisfeeling a bit feel a bit tense
or feeling a little bit sticky.
So now we can do something aboutit. Now we can put in additional

(19:30):
support.

Simon Currigan (19:31):
started talking about and using strategies? How
can we help people stick withthat programme or a set of
strategies? When the truth isthey are likely to experience
setbacks along the way tosuccess?

Nicola S Morgan (19:53):
Oh definitely.
And coming back just to sayabout the TED talk, because the
TED talk I did was aboutresilience. Now, one strategy
for resilience is to encouragethem to make mistakes, not
stopping mistakes, butconstructive mistakes. So when
we do get setbacks, that's fine.
That's how we learn. That's howwe develop. So we want to
embrace that. But one successfulstrategy that I have used, and

(20:18):
I've got teachers up and downthe UK to use as well as the
check ins, let's get those checkins done. Now, then on average,
if we're concerned about aparticular child, we need to do
about three check ins a day onein the morning, when around
about lunchtime, one sometime inthe afternoon. And with these
check ins, we need to cover afew things. Number one, we want

(20:38):
to get them in the rightmindset. So I always say, what's
the one thing that put a smileon your face so far today, so
we're getting them to focus inon the positives of their life,
rather than the negatives thatcould trigger anger. So we're
practising a little bit of thatkind of positive mindset. The
other thing that I do is Ireinforced the strategies that

(20:58):
we've already gone over to allowthem to manage some problematic
situations that could come upduring the day. Now, maybe the
problem starts to happen inmaths or literacy, or whatever
it is. Okay, so now we've got aset of strategies for that. Now,
I don't just want to give them aset of strategies, I want to
reinforce the house of the houseevery day, every day, we're

(21:19):
going to reinforce it. Becauseat the end of the day, if we're
consistently doing something,it's going to become so much
easier as habit formationreally, isn't it? Now the third
thing that I do is I get them torate themselves on a scale a
scale of one to 10, because Ineed to get a little bit more of
an insight into how they'refeeling right now. And I also

(21:40):
need to allow them to have theinsight on how they are feeling
right now. So I'll give them ascale of one to 10. And I'll
exaggerate the one and the 10.
And I'll say, right, you know,how are you feeling right now,
number one, you just want tohide under a desk, if that's
what they tend to do, or number10, you just want to be out
there with your friends having areally good time. And they might
come and say something like,wow, I'd probably give myself a

(22:03):
six miss, okay. And there'snothing wrong with wherever they
put themselves on the scale. Buthere is the leverage for growth.
And it is this, that's fine. Soyou're a six. So what do you
need to do? What do I need to dofor you to make that a 6.5? What
do we need to do together? Sowe're not looking at changing

(22:25):
everything, we're not lookingfor perfection, we're looking at
that element of growth. Andthat's doable, and not just
doable in relation to what we'retalking about here with anger.
This is a scale that is so goodwhen we're looking at improving
school attendance. It's so goodwhen we're looking at improving
mental health, we can use it inso many different areas. It's a

(22:47):
very powerful tool.

Simon Currigan (22:50):
It makes it achievable, doesn't it?

Nicola S Morgan (22:51):
Yeah,

Simon Currigan (22:52):
As I'm listening to you talk about this approach.
It sounds to me it's coaching,it's bursts of input over time,
keeping the ship steady, helpingthe kids rehearse, and keep
those strategies in mind andtalking to them about potential
roadblocks, you know, coming upahead and helping them around
those obstacles. It's that inputover time, do you think that's

(23:12):
sort of the secret sauce,really, that kind of helps them
develop and stick with theprogramme,

Unknown (23:17):
I think is one of them, I think is a very successful
method to be using the problemthat we've got in schools is
time,

Simon Currigan (23:24):
yeah,

Nicola S Morgan (23:24):
it's time to be able to do this. But the way
that I always see it, I've got achoice where I invest my time,
either invested into somethingthat we've just been talking
about here, or I've got toinvest it by dealing with a
situation that's literally justexploded, so it's my choice. And
at the end of the day, you know,as a member of staff, the only

(23:45):
thing that I can control is me.
So I need to control where Iinvest my time. But as well as
that as well. And I always say Ido an awful lot of work with
engaging parents engagingfamilies. And when we're doing
these interventions, we do needto be working with the families
as well. We need to be workingwith the parents as well and
just a tiny strategy, you know,this doable, that's all we're

(24:06):
looking at here or just to getthem to notice and to celebrate,
and this is really powerfulstuff. I really, really good and
I'm gonna kind of wave the flagnow for this one. A very, very
good parental InterventionProgramme is the Solihull
approach. I don't know if you'vecome across it before. Very,
very powerful used in the NHS inSolihull, Birmingham. This is a

(24:30):
very, very good programme. And Iwould say that if you're looking
at working with parents, this isa very, very good starting point
to get some training on.

Simon Currigan (24:41):
What sort of skills, we've talked about the
work that needs to be done andeffective strategies. But then
what kind of skills would I needas an adult to develop to help
my pupils manage their angermore effectively?

Nicola S Morgan (24:52):
Well, it's coming back to what I just said
really? And that is the onlyperson that we can control is
ourselves and we've got to getit right. We have to get it
right. We We need to make surethat we're calm. We're
confident, we're empathetic whenwe're walking into a situation,
because they are going to bescanning us subconsciously, and
working out, am I safe with thisperson now, if they don't feel

(25:13):
safe with us, then it's justgoing to escalate even more. So
we need to really, you know,make sure that we're there. And
we're that solid individual.
Now, a really good technique touse for this one, if you don't
feel confident, if you don'tfeel assertive, if you don't
feel that calm, is to take alittle bit of advice from a
wonderful speaker called AmyCuddy, who did the power stance,

(25:35):
she did a TED talk about ityears ago. And she said, just go
into the power stance, and itwill help you feel more
confident, more assertive. Butalso, research has shown that
going into the power stance willreduce your stress levels. So
naturally, you're going to feela lot calmer when you walk in.
And I think the key thing hereis as well, for members of staff

(25:55):
is yeah, you got to get yourselfright. But it's also good to
have an understanding of wherethat child is at. And going back
to that time intensity model.
And that crisis point that peakthat I mentioned, when they hit
that peak, their ability tocommunicate, to reason and to
listen as woof is gone rightdown. So we need to be in a

(26:19):
position where we can give themthat space, we can give them
that space, just to reengagethat cortex part of their brain.
So when they do go back tobaseline, now we can have those
conversations about a wayforward. And those
conversations, I alwaysvisualise them as being a road
and we're on this road andsometimes like us, or we veer

(26:42):
off the road, and we just needthose gentle nudges back onto
that road. So we've got astraight line to our
destination. And those reallyare what the conversations are
about. And do I need to skillthem up a little bit more? Are
they missing something here? Butone phrase I always hold on to
when I'm working with staff and,and I've been there before Simon
when I've got a child and andit's a really difficult

(27:05):
situation. And I can feel myheart rate rising. And I can
feel myself starting to want toargue or justify myself to
especially where maybe whetherthey're five years of age, 12
years of age, 14 years of age,and the phrase that I always
hold on to is this. Don't getdrawn into the chaos, but bring

(27:26):
them into your calm. You cannotafford to step into whatever
that chaos looks like. You haveto stand back. You have to
pause, you have to be confident,you have to be assertive, you
have to stay calm, becausethey're going to be picking that
up from you.

Simon Currigan (27:42):
Well, that's really powerful. Don't get drawn
into their chaos, bring theminto your calm. I love that.
Tell us about success story thatyou've had using these
techniques to support studentwho has been struggling to
manage their anger. I suspectyou've got many.

Nicola S Morgan (27:54):
Ive got loads.
I've got loads. I've got somany. How long have we got? Do
you know what one particularchild really springs to mind.
And it was when I was working ata pupil referral unit quite a
few years ago now actually. Andthis particular child was here
seven

Simon Currigan (28:09):
I can just explain for listeners outside
the UK. The pupil referral unitis a small school where children
will go when they're permanentlyexcluded or expelled from
It sounds like small things. Butactually, they're massive
school,

Nicola S Morgan (28:19):
Beautifully put. So this particular child,
he was gorgeous, so lovely. socharismatic. He was wonderful.
But he did get triggered often.
And normally his behaviouralpattern would be with get
triggered, he would swear youwould run out to the classroom.
And he would run out to theschool building as well, which
is incredibly dangerous. So Iworked with him a lot of the
strategies that we've alreadyspoken about one in particular

(28:42):
were the check ins, and therewere more than three during the
day. And sometimes they werejust conversations, just chit
chats, but still just you knowgetting over those elements of
strategies of what you need todo in this particular situation.
So this went on for quite a fewmonths. I was very patient. And
then one day, one day I was inthe classroom, I saw a child

(29:04):
take his pen without permission.
I saw he got triggered. I sawthose fists clench, which
clearly says, I'm going intofight mode. I'm going in I'm
going up to that crisis point.
But he got up and he told me I'mgonna go and see Mr. Williams.
And he went there for a coupleof hours. And he came back then
and he carried on with thelessons bingo success. But Mr.

(29:25):
Williams wasn't just the randomperson within the school far
from it, because what I did withhim as well, I got him when he
was calm when he was back atvictories, aren't they?
that baseline. I got him toidentify three key members of
Yeah. And I think it's the samewith when you're working with
staff that he felt he had a goodrelationship with know who I
felt he had a good relationshipand who he felt he had a good

(29:46):
relationship with. One of thosewas Mr. Williams and each one of
these members of staff I said,Listen, I want you to champion
children, young people, parents,even members of staff, we've got
this pupil. I want you to waveyour flag every time he does
something really positive. Hedoes something really good.
to celebrate those smallsuccesses, because the small
Sometimes he's going to come toyou when he just needs that
little bit of support. Please bethere for him. And it worked.

(30:08):
And I'll always remember, italways puts a smile on my face
successes lead to big successes.
But we have to celebrate thesmall ones first.

Simon Currigan (30:29):
If you're a teacher, or a school leader, or
a parent, actually, we've we'vestarted the discussion about
parents, and you're listening tothis podcast, and you're working
with a child who is strugglingwith her anger, we've talked
about a lot of different things.
What's the first step you couldtake today to start helping them
achieve success

Nicola S Morgan (30:47):
For me, as a member of staff. And if I'm
talking to other members ofstaff, and to parents, I would
say be reflective and consciousof your own emotions, including
anger. How do you respond? Howdo you feel when you get
triggered? And also, how longdoes it take you if you've

(31:08):
really got triggered if you'vegone into that anger mode? How
long does it actually take foryou to actually be in a position
that you can say, sorry, forexample, now, I don't know about
you, but it can take me up tothree days, and maybe I
shouldn't have admitted to that.
But it does happen. And I thinkthe more aware we become of our
own emotions, the more equippedwe are then to deal with the

(31:30):
children and young people we'reworking with.

Simon Currigan (31:33):
I think that's really powerful as well. It's
about the empathy, isn't it?

Nicola S Morgan (31:36):
Absolutely.

Simon Currigan (31:37):
How can our listeners find out more about
your TED Talk, your angermanagement programme, tell us
where we can find out about yourresources?

Nicola S Morgan (31:44):
Well, the anger management programme, the 10
session programme that's on thewebsite, NSM training and
consultancy, and it's called theexplosive pupil Anger Management
for Schools and Colleges, orthey can just email us or email
you, and you can put them intouch with us, which will be
great. So that's a really,really good one. And I would
definitely ask people just tocheck it out, check us out on

(32:05):
social media, because you cansee all the feedback from that
particular course this there aswell. So that's a really good
starting point. And what I thinkwhen we're dealing with
behaviour, it's nice to have aframework to start with some
sort of structure that we canthen develop ourselves. As far
as the TED talk is concerned,please, please, please watch it,
it will be great is based onUnfinished business delaying the

(32:27):
urge to give up now I gave oneor two resilience strategies
during this podcast or on theTED talk, I give three more very
powerful, resilient strategiesthat are very transferable to in
the classroom as well. And alsofor us to use as adults coming
back to what you asked earlierassignment. So if you can take a
look at that, that will begreat. Or if you just type into

(32:49):
YouTube, Nikola s Morgan, I'mnot going to tell you what the S
stands for Nikola s. Morgan,then the TED talk will come up.

Simon Currigan (32:57):
And what I'll do is, I'll put direct links to all
of those resources in theepisode description. So if
you're on a run, or at the gymor out for a walk, and you can't
get your phone out and type forwhatever reason, all you need to
do when you when you finishlistening is look in the episode
description and you can clickstraight through with your
finger.
Nicola, we ask this of all ofour guests, who is the key
figure that's influenced you,which key book that you've read,

(33:18):
that has had the biggest impacton your approach to working with
kids?

Nicola S Morgan (33:23):
I'm gonna give two actually, well, in fact, I'm
Well, I'm sure people will belooking those books up as we
gonna give four but the two arefor me, the other one's for a
child and the other one's for ateenager. So I'm just gonna give
you a few reference points here.
The one that I would recommendis the whole brainchild by Dr.
Dan Siegel, absolutely brilliantbook. And he talks about key key
things like Name it to tame it,engage-don't enrage, move it or

(33:44):
lose it. Really kind of quirkyapproaches, and also the
flipping of the lid, which isconnected to what we've been
talking about here. Absolutelybrilliant. Check it out. And
he's also got a workbook thatgoes with the book. So again, if
you are going to do the 10session programme for anger
management, this could besomething that you include in

(34:05):
this those 10 sessions as well.
The other one I'm going tomention is I blame my brain by a
lady called Nicola Morgan. Andthat's why I've been emphasising
the s in the middle of my namebecause it's not me. And
incredible lady brilliant book,she updated it, I blame my
brain. Very, very good if you'reworking in secondary school. And

(34:27):
again, if you work and you'reconcerned about a child's anger,
this is a very good book to takea look at. A book that I'm sure
you've got in your library inschool for younger children is a
volcano in my tummy. And that'sa very, very good one and one
for teens is keeping your cool.
A teen Survival Guide. I likesurvival guides.

(34:50):
speak. Nicola, I've reallyenjoyed talking to you today.
You've given us so muchpractical information. Just want
to say thank you for being onthe podcast. We really
appreciate it.
Thank you so so much

Emma Shackleton (35:01):
Wow, what a practical episode Nicola was so
good at explaining step by step,how to run an effective anger
management programme. Lots ofgood stuff that we can all pick
up and start using to supportour students straightaway.

Simon Currigan (35:18):
Yeah I really enjoyed that interview, Nicola
was so knowledgeable. I'll putdirect links to her website and
courses in the show notes. Soall you have to do is open up
your podcast app and tapthrough. And you'll also find a
direct link to her TED Talk inthat if you haven't seen it yet,
definitely worth a watch.

Emma Shackleton (35:33):
If you found today's episode useful, please
don't keep it to yourself, payit forward and share it on your
socials so that other people canbenefit from the strategies and
ideas that Nicola shared. It'lltake you just 20 seconds. Open
up your podcast app, hit Share,and send a direct link by email
messenger WhatsApp or howeveryou like to message your

(35:56):
friends. And don't forget tosubscribe while you've got your
app open.

Simon Currigan (36:01):
That means it's game over for this week's
episode.

Emma Shackleton (36:04):
We hope you have a calm serene and anger
free week and we really lookingforward to seeing you on the
next episode of school behavioursequence. Bye for now.

Simon Currigan (36:15):
Bye
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