October 13, 2025 • 31 mins
The radio call comes in. A student’s refusing to move, and suddenly, everyone’s looking at you to fix it.
Here’s what nobody ever told us in grad school: defiance and dysregulation can look the same from the outside, but they require completely different responses.
This episode gives you a clear, evidence-based way to figure out the difference, match the right tool to the right circumstance, and keep your cool when the pressure’s on.
Join for the masterclass Oct 19: schoolforschoolcounselors.com/mastermind
References
Corrigan, F. M., Fisher, J. J., & Nutt, D. J. (2011). Autonomic dysregulation and the window of tolerance model of the effects of complex emotional trauma. Journal of Psychopharmacology, 25(1), 17-25.
Lebowitz, E. R., Panza, K. E., & Bloch, M. H. (2016). Family accommodation in obsessive-compulsive and anxiety disorders: A five-year update. Expert Review of Neurotherapeutics, 16(1), 45-53.
Shahan, T. A. (2022). Explaining extinction and relapse. Journal of the Experimental Analysis of Behavior, 117(3), 360-375.
Siegel, D. J. (2012). The developing mind: How relationships and the brain interact to shape who we are (2nd ed.). Guilford Press.
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All names, stories, and case studies in this episode are fictionalized composites drawn from real-world circumstances. Any resemblance to actual students, families, or school personnel is coincidental. Details have been altered to protect privacy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Your walkie goes off.
(00:01):
Can you come to the cafeteria?
He's refusing to go to class.
Yeah, that's all the informationyou get.
Hey school counselor, welcomeback.
In this episode, we're tacklingthe split-second decision that
changes everything.
Is it defiance or dysregulation?
(00:22):
They look identical.
Same refusal, same tone, sameslammed doors.
They need completely oppositeresponses.
Get it wrong, and you riskre-traumatizing a student who's
already struggling.
Get it right, and you become theadvocate they so desperately
need.
And here's the part nobody wantsto say out loud.
(00:44):
We've been getting this wrong.
A lot.
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, a
little clarity and maybe a touchof rebellion.
You are in the right place.
I'm Steph Johnson, and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
So that radio call just camethrough.
(01:05):
You're halfway through an email,but that doesn't matter now.
You grab your keys and you startwalking down the hallway.
Your heart rate picks up withevery step.
And your mind's already runningthrough the possibilities.
Is he angry?
Scared?
Is he playing to an audience?
The hallway smells likeindustrial cleaner and chicken
(01:26):
nuggets.
You know that smell.
You push through the cafeteriadoors, and everyone turns to
look at you.
The teacher's pacing near thevending machines, her arms
crossed.
The students at a corner tablestaring at the floor, hood up.
The lunch aids have cleared thearea, but there are still eyes
(01:47):
everywhere.
Other students pretending not towatch.
A parent volunteer frozen nearthe door, probably texting
someone about the situation.
The teacher spots you and theysigh, half out of relief, half
out of frustration, and theywalk over with their voice low
but urgent.
He just shut down, won't talk,won't move.
(02:09):
I tried everything.
And now every eye in thatcafeteria is on you.
You're the school counselor.
And the unspoken expectationhangs in the air like humidity
before a storm.
Fix it.
You've got maybe 10 seconds todecide your first move.
(02:31):
Do you approach him directly orgive him space?
Soft voice or firm tone.
Ask questions or makestatements.
Every choice sends a message tohim, to the teacher watching,
and to the students pretendingnot to listen.
And here's the thing (02:46):
you could get this completely wrong.
Come in too soft and you mightreinforce avoidance when he
actually needs to learnaccountability.
Come in too firm and you mightpunish a nervous system that's
already in full fight or flightmode.
You'll push him further intoshutdown, or worse, into an
(03:07):
explosion.
So what do you do?
Here's what nobody told us ingrad school.
They taught us ASCA standards,they taught us how to write
SMART goals, they taught usethics and statistics and crisis
intervention theory.
But nobody taught us how to walkinto a cafeteria full of 200
(03:28):
people and decode a standoff in10 seconds.
Nobody prepared us for the factthat our response in this moment
could either help the studenttrust adults again or teach him
that no one really understandswhat's happening inside him.
So we learn through trial anderror, through hallway whispers,
through that one workshop wewent to three years ago, or
(03:52):
through sheer instinct.
And most of the time, we dookay.
But okay isn't enough anymore.
Because the students who land inthese moments are the ones
who've already been misread overand over.
They're the ones who've beenpunished for panic attacks and
coddled when they neededboundaries.
(04:14):
And when we get it wrong, whenwe misread the state they're in,
we don't just make aprofessional misstep.
We hurt kids.
When you treat dysregulationlike defiance, you add
consequences to crisis.
You essentially tell a child insurvival mode that their nervous
(04:35):
system's distress signals are abehavioral choice.
You teach them that when they'reoverwhelmed, adults respond with
pressure instead of safety.
So next time they won't come toyou, they'll run, or worse,
they'll shut down so completelythat nobody can reach them at
all.
That's the suspension pipeline.
And that's how we lose kids inschools.
(04:58):
But when you treat defiance likedysregulation, you remove the
very boundaries that teachresponsibility.
You teach that avoidance worksand accountability doesn't
apply.
You rob that student of thechance to learn frustration
tolerance.
And the reality that sometimeswe do hard things even when we
(05:18):
don't want to.
Let me give you an example.
Marcus, eighth grader, charmingkid, funny and incredibly
perceptive.
During advisory, he'd wait untilthe teacher started a lesson,
and then you'd see it.
His whole demeanor would shift.
He'd start fidgeting, lookingdown, and then his hand would go
(05:40):
up.
Miss Rodriguez, I'm feelingreally anxious today.
Can I go to the counselingoffice?
And his voice would shake alittle.
He'd look down, fidgeting withhis pencil.
All the classic anxiety signals.
At first his counselor honoredthat.
Of course she did.
It takes courage to name thosefeelings, right?
(06:02):
And that's what we want studentsto do.
But then she started noticingsomething.
He only felt anxious duringadvisory.
Never during PE, never duringlunch, never during the periods
where he got to choose a seat orwork with friends.
And when he got to thecounseling office, he wasn't
dysregulated.
He was chatting, joking.
(06:23):
Hey Miss Chen, can I help youorganize the fidget bin?
Suddenly very interested incolor-coding the stress balls by
size.
No shaky voice, no distress,just fine.
Meanwhile, his advisory teacheris watching 28 other kids and
wondering why Marcus gets toleave whenever he wants.
And the message to the entireclass is crystal clear.
(06:47):
Say the magic words, show theright signals, and you're out.
Marcus didn't need a break fromanxiety.
Marcus needed an adult who couldsee through the performance and
say, I hear you, and I also knowthat you can handle this.
He needed to learn thatdiscomfort isn't danger, that
(07:09):
anxiety doesn't always meanexit.
So his counselor tried somethingdifferent.
Next time Marcus asked to leave,she said, I hear you're anxious.
And I also know you can handlethis.
Let's try five more minutes andthen check in.
And you know what?
He stayed.
And after a few weeks of this,the requests stopped.
(07:32):
By treating his strategicavoidance like dysregulation
initially, we'd been denying himthe growth opportunity he
actually needed.
And here's what nobody talksabout.
Research shows that students whoare repeatedly removed from
challenging situations actuallybecome more anxious, not less.
(07:53):
Their window of toleranceshrinks.
We think we're giving them abreak, but we're actually
teaching their brain that theworld is even more dangerous
than they thought.
Those kinds of errors hurt thevery kids we're trying to
protect.
So, how do you tell thedifference?
Let's go back to that cafeteria.
(08:14):
You're standing there 10 feetaway, everyone's watching, and
here's what you do (08:19):
you start gathering data.
And I'm gonna show you exactlyhow I do this, like you're
inside my head as I'm assessing.
First, I look at his breathing.
It's rapid, shallow.
His chest is moving fast.
Okay, that's physiological signnumber one, but I don't lock in
(08:40):
my read just yet.
I need more data.
I move a little closer.
His hands are trembling slightlywhere they're gripping his
knees.
That's physiological sign numbertwo.
Now I'm leaning towarddysregulation, but here's what
would change my mind.
I glance around.
Are there any peers nearby?
Is there an audience?
(09:00):
No, the lunch aids clear thearea, but his behavior hasn't
changed.
He's still in it, even though noone's watching.
If this were defiance, he'd haveadjusted it by now.
The performance needs anaudience, so this isn't that.
I catch a glimpse of his faceunder the hood.
His eyes aren't defiant.
(09:20):
They're sort of glassy,unfocused.
The teacher said he just shutdown, won't talk.
So I try.
I keep my voice gentle.
Hey, what's going on?
He whispers back, barelyaudible.
I don't know.
And I hear the confusion in hisvoice.
That's it.
(09:42):
That's the tell.
That's not I don't want to tellyou.
That's I genuinely cannot accesslanguage right now.
This is dysregulation.
Let me break down what I justdid because this is the
framework.
There are two categories ofcues.
(10:03):
And you're not looking for allof them.
You're looking for the two orthree that never lie.
If it's dysregulation, here'swhat matters most.
One, the physiological signs youcan see.
Rapid breathing, flushed face,shaking, sweating.
The body is in fight or flight.
(10:23):
You can see the nervous systemactivation.
And two, language goes offline.
You ask them a question and theycan't answer.
Not won't, can't.
They might whisper, I don'tknow, with genuine confusion.
They might repeat what you say.
Or they might go completelysilent.
(10:44):
Not defiant silence, but emptysilence.
And here's the one that sealsit.
The behavior continues even whenthere's no audience and no
reward.
You ignore them, walk away,remove all attention, and the
reaction doesn't change.
They're not performing, they'resurviving.
(11:08):
Now, on the other hand, defiancehas two tells that give it away
every time.
One, the behavior escalates whenyou engage.
You start talking, redirecting,setting a boundary, and the
behavior intensifies.
Your attention is fuel.
And two, it stops abruptly whenthey get what they want.
(11:30):
You say, fine, you can take abreak, and suddenly they're
fine.
If the crisis ends when they getwhat they want, it wasn't a
crisis.
Now let me show you what thatlooks like in real situations.
I will never forget a fourthgrader that I worked with.
I'll call him Jordan.
(11:51):
The teacher would ask him tostart the work and he'd refuse.
Arms crossed, head down,wouldn't respond to questions,
and it looked like classicdefiance.
Deliberate non-compliance,testing limits.
But when I got closer, I noticedsomething.
His eyes weren't making contactbecause he was challenging
(12:13):
authority.
They'd gone classy.
Like he was looking through meand not at me.
And he'd started this lowhumming sound under his breath.
I don't even think he wasconscious of it.
It was just this steady hum.
So I asked him, Jordan, what'sgoing on?
And he whispered, What's goingon?
(12:34):
Echolalia.
He was repeating my words backto me.
Check the signals.
Physiological signs?
Yes.
Glassy eyes, self-soothing hum.
Language offline?
Absolutely.
He couldn't even access his ownwords.
That wasn't defiance.
That was a shutdown.
(12:55):
His brain had left theconversation, and the more I
pushed, the further away hewent.
So I stopped pushing.
I pulled up a chair, not tooclose, just near.
I didn't ask questions.
I didn't make demands.
I just sat there.
And that's what co-regulationactually looks like.
(13:17):
I didn't try to teach himanything in that moment.
I was just bringing my regulatednervous system into proximity
with his.
And after a few minutes, I couldsee it.
His breathing started to slow,the humming stopped, and his
shoulders dropped.
And eventually he looked up atme and he said, so quietly, I'm
(13:39):
okay now.
Meanwhile, the teacher's at herdesk probably wondering if I'm
conducting a meditation sessionor if I'm actually counseling.
If I'd kept pushing consequencesand demands in that moment, I
would have taught him thatadults are not safe when he's
overwhelmed.
Co-regulation is the tool, butknowing when to use it versus
(14:02):
when it will backfire is theskill.
And that's exactly what wepractice together in the
mastermind.
More on that in a little bit.
But let's compare Jordan to Mia,fifth grader.
She'd come to my office lookinggenuinely distressed, fidgeting,
wringing her hands, sometimesthey were even tears.
(14:22):
Miss Johnson, I need to call mymom.
I don't feel good.
My stomach hurts.
And she looked anxious.
She wouldn't make eye contact,her voice was shaking, and all
the signals said dysregulation.
So at first I let her call homebecause that's what we do,
right?
We honor their feelings, wevalidate their distress, but
(14:46):
then I started noticingsomething.
She never felt sick during artor recess or on the days when
there was a substitute in theclass was watching a movie.
Only during classes when therewas a test or a challenging
assignment or partner work thatshe didn't want to do.
And when I finally said verygently but firmly, Mia, I hear
(15:10):
you, and we'll check in afterclass to see how you're feeling.
But right now, you're staying.
You know what happened?
She didn't melt down.
She rolled her eyes, she huffedat me.
She did that preteen, uh, finethat could win an Oscar.
And then she walked back to herdesk and she opened her test
booklet.
(15:30):
Ten minutes later, she was stillfine.
No tears, no stomachache, and itturned out she could do it after
all.
Shocking.
The so-called crisis ended whenshe realized she wasn't getting
out of it.
And that tells you everything.
So in both situations, we hadthe same word, refusal, but
(15:52):
completely different states.
And if you responded the sameway to both of them, you'd fail
one of them.
Now, the initial read is justyour hypothesis.
You don't lock it in during thecrisis, you confirm it
afterward, once the situation isunder control.
(16:12):
There are three questions youask yourself, and yes, the
sequence of these questionsmatters.
Okay.
Question one.
Did the student recoverrelatively quickly and engage in
problem solving?
If the answer is yes, if theybounced back fast, if they can
(16:33):
now talk about what happened andwhat to do differently, that's
pointing toward defiance.
Their brain was online the wholetime.
If the answer is no, if they'restill exhausted, still
struggling to articulate, stillemotionally raw, that's
dysregulation.
The nervous system is stillcoming back online.
(16:55):
Question two.
Does the student show remorse orconfusion about their actions?
Now, be careful here becausethis is where a lot of folks get
tripped up.
Some students have learned thatremorse is the magic key.
They cry, they apologize, theysay all the right things, and
(17:15):
the adults back off.
So you need to ask (17:17):
is this the same remorse I heard last week?
Does the behavior change or justthe apology?
If there's genuine confusion, ifthey truly don't understand what
happened or why they reactedthat way, that's more likely
dysregulation.
(17:37):
If it's performative remorsefollowed by the same behavior
next week, that's strategy.
Question three.
Was this a repeated patternunder similar triggers?
This is the one that tells youalmost everything.
Does the same situation triggerthe same response week after
(17:58):
week, month after month?
Does it happen in multiplecontexts or just in specific
ones?
A student who melts down in mathclass every single Tuesday
during tests, but never duringany other subjects, is not
showing random dysregulation.
That's a learned response to aspecific trigger.
They might genuinely feelanxious.
(18:20):
I'm not saying they're fakingthe emotion, but the pattern
tells you that this isn't anervous system that's constantly
overwhelmed.
It's a nervous system that'slearned.
This situation is too much, andescape is the answer.
That student needs somethingdifferent than the student whose
nervous system is in overdriveall day, every day across all
(18:42):
contexts.
The pattern tells the truthevery single time.
Okay, pause.
I know I just gave you a lot.
Let me show you what thisactually looks like when it all
comes together.
Quick scenario (18:57):
a student refuses to present their project
in front of the class.
They put their head down andwon't respond when the teacher
calls on them, so the teachersends them to you.
In your office, they'refidgeting, they won't make eye
contact with you, and they justkeep saying, I can't do it, I
just can't.
Initial read could go eitherway.
(19:20):
So you start asking theconfirmation questions.
Did they recover quickly?
Nope.
They're still visibly anxious 20minutes later.
Do they show confusion orremorse?
Yes.
They say, I don't know why I getlike this.
I hate that I do this.
Is it a pattern?
Yes.
You check with their teachers,and it happens every time
(19:42):
there's a presentation.
But it also happens with partnerwork and reading aloud in pretty
much any situation where they'rein the spotlight.
That's not strategic avoidance.
That's social anxiety.
This student needs graduatedexposure, coping skills, maybe a
504 plan, not consequences forso-called refusal.
(20:06):
You see how the questions guideyou?
And so at this point, I need totell you something that's going
to change the way you see about30% of your crisis calls.
There are four big mistakes Isee even experienced counselors
make.
And I know this because I'm inconsultation with school
counselors each and every week.
I'm going to walk you throughthese four because once you see
(20:27):
them, you can't unsee them.
Mistake number one, assumingthat remorse always means
dysregulation.
I just told you about this, butit is so common, I'm going to
say it again.
A student melts down, gets sentto your office, and within
minutes they're crying andapologizing.
I'm so sorry.
(20:47):
I don't know why I did that.
I feel terrible.
It looks like dysregulation.
The emotion is real and theremorse seems genuine.
But ask yourself, is this thesame apology I heard last
Tuesday?
And the Tuesday before that?
Does the behavior actuallychange?
Or do I just get really goodapologies?
(21:10):
Some students, especially thesmart, perceptive ones, have
learned that remorse is how youunlock adult forgiveness.
The real tell isn't do they feelbad?
It's does the pattern change?
Mistake number two, thinkingthat quiet withdrawal is always
shutdown.
(21:31):
A student refuses to work, putstheir head down, won't engage,
they look checked out, maybeeven dissociated.
Easy call, right?
Dysregulation.
Classic shutdown.
But watch what happens when yousay, okay, you can take come
take a break in the counselingoffice.
Do they perk up immediately?
Are they suddenly able to chat,make eye contact, joke around,
(21:53):
ask what digits you have?
Because true shutdown doesn'tflip off like a light switch the
moment the demands are removed.
If that dysregulation disappearsthe instant they get what they
want, you're looking atstrategic avoidance, not nervous
system overload.
Mistake number three, missingthe audience.
(22:14):
This one is big.
A student escalates.
They're yelling dramatic, bigemotions.
It feels like dysregulationbecause it's so intense.
But look around.
Who's watching?
Is this happening in the hallwaybetween classes when there's an
audience of peers?
Does it happen in front of theclass but never one-on-one in
your office?
(22:34):
Does the behavior intensify whenother students are nearby?
Real dysregulation happensregardless of who's watching.
If the behavior only shows upwhen there are witnesses, or if
it gets bigger when adultsengage and other kids can see,
the audience is the point.
That's not survival mode.
(22:55):
That's typically socialstrategy.
And mistake number four,ignoring the context pattern.
A student has a completemeltdown in math class.
Screaming, tears can't beconsoled, and all the
physiological signs are there.
Shaking, rapid breathing, can'tarticulate what's wrong.
You look at that moment and youthink dysregulation.
(23:18):
This kid needs co-regulation anda break.
But then you check with theirother teachers.
Oh yeah, this happens every timethere's a test in math like
clockwork.
But she's fine and class neverhad a problem.
Here's what you're actuallyseeing.
Yes, the nervous system isactivated.
Yes, the distress is real.
(23:39):
I'm not saying she's faking it.
But it's not randomdysregulation.
It's an anxiety response to aspecific predictable trigger.
And every time you remove herwhen it happens, you teach her
nervous system math tests aretoo dangerous to face.
Escape is the answer.
This student doesn't needendless co-regulation breaks.
(24:02):
She needs anxiety coping skillsand gradual exposure to the
trigger.
She needs to learn thatdiscomfort isn't danger and that
she can handle hard things.
The pattern tells youeverything.
Same trigger, same responseacross time in a specific
context is not dysregulation.
(24:24):
That's learned avoidance with areal physiological component.
Don't just look at the moment.
Look at the pattern.
Look at what happens before,during, and after.
Look at who's watching.
And look at whether the responsechanges based on consequences or
audience.
(24:45):
That's how you avoid thesetraps.
And look, I'll be honest, Istill have moments when I stand
there and think, I have no ideawhich lane this is.
The framework does not make yousuddenly omniscient, right?
It makes you systematic.
It gives you a way to gatherdata when your gut really isn't
(25:08):
sure.
Now, some of you are thinking,that sounds great, but I 100%
know my admin won't back me up.
Or my teachers thinktrauma-informed means no
consequences.
That's real, right?
I know it is.
And that's exactly why wepractice the language scripts in
my mastermind.
How to frame this in a way thatgets buy-in instead of pushback.
(25:32):
Because you can have the bestframework in the world, but if
you can't get your campus onboard, you're working uphill
alone.
So let's go back to thatcafeteria one final time.
You're standing there, thestudents at the corner table,
hood up, staring at the floor,everyone's watching, the
(25:52):
teacher's waiting for you to dosomething.
But this time you know exactlywhat you're looking at.
You've gathered your data, youchecked the signals, you've made
your read.
Rapid breathing, tremblinghands, glassy eyes, can't
verbalize, no audience, but thebehavior continues.
(26:16):
This is dysregulation.
So you don't demand.
You don't redirect.
You don't launch into problemsolving or pestering them with
questions.
You pull up a chair and you sitand you breathe slowly.
(26:37):
You bring your regulated nervoussystem into proximity with his
and you wait.
After a few minutes, you see it.
His breathing starts to slow.
His shoulders drop justslightly.
The tension in his handsreleases.
He looks up, checks if it'ssafe, and you say, Hey, you're
(27:02):
alright, take your time.
That student just learnedsomething critical.
When his nervous system floods,there's an adult who can help
him come back.
He's not alone in it.
He's not too much, and he's notbroken.
That's what it looks like toread them right.
So here's what I've given youtoday.
(27:24):
The cues to look for, theconfirmation questions, the
common mistakes to avoid.
You can use this frameworkimmediately.
But here's where most schoolcounselors get stuck.
The gray zones.
What do you do when a studentshows both sets of signals?
When your read conflicts withthe teachers?
(27:46):
When you realize 30 seconds inthat you chose wrong and you
need to pivot without losingtrust?
Or what about the teacherconsultation?
How do you explain this to ateacher who thinks you're too
lenient?
What exact language changes howthey see behavior?
Or what about interventionmenus?
What specific strategies fitinto the school counseling
(28:10):
world?
When do things like check-in,check-out, or behaviorism help
versus harm?
That's what we're going topractice together in our
Schocktober Behavior Masterclasson October 19th inside the
School for School Counselorsmastermind.
And here's specifically whatthat looks like.
First, we practice real campusscenarios so that when you're
(28:33):
standing in that cafeteria andyour heart's racing, your bra
when you're standing in thatcafeteria and your heart's
racing, your brain doesn'tfreeze because you've been here
before.
You know what to look forbecause you practiced.
Secondly, we script teacherconsultations so that teachers
start responding differentlybefore the crisis even reaches
(28:55):
you.
They become your partnersinstead of your obstacles.
And third, we troubleshoot thegray zones so that you stop
replaying interactions at 2 a.m.
wondering if you made it worse.
You've been there.
I know you have because so haveI.
Because here's what happens ifyou don't learn this.
(29:15):
Five years from now, you'restill getting those radio calls,
still feeling your stomach drop,still replaying crises in your
head, wondering if you got itright.
Still watching kids getsuspended for behaviors that
were actually cries for help.
Still carrying the weight ofwondering whether you're helping
or hurting.
(29:36):
Or you can learn this now.
Head toschoolforschoolcounselors.com
slash mastermind to join usbefore October 19th.
Because advocacy in schoolcounseling isn't about fixing
kids, it's about reading themright.
Here's what I want you to dotomorrow.
(29:57):
When you get a crisis call andyou We'll get one.
Before you even walk in theroom, take three breaths.
And ask yourself, what am Iabout to look for?
Just that.
Make it intentional instead ofreactive.
Because that's where thisstarts.
All right, so remember how Istarted this episode?
(30:21):
He's refusing to go back toclass, and that was all the
information that you get.
And you know that's how it goesdown.
But now you know what to lookfor.
Now you know what questions toask.
You walked in that cafeteria notknowing what you were looking
at.
Now you can read the room.
You can read the student and youcan make the call.
(30:42):
And that student is going to getwhat they need.
Not because you're the perfectschool counselor, but because
you're willing to look closer.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, keep trustingyour instincts.
You know more than you think youdo.
And those hard moments, the onesthat make your heart race and
(31:06):
your hands shake, those are theones that are teaching you how
to be the advocate your campusneeds.
You've got this.
Take care.
Your walkie goes off.
(00:01):
Can you come to the cafeteria?
He's refusing to go to class.
Yeah, that's all the informationyou get.
Hey school counselor, welcomeback.
In this episode, we're tacklingthe split-second decision that
changes everything.
Is it defiance or dysregulation?
(00:22):
They look identical.
Same refusal, same tone, sameslammed doors.
They need completely oppositeresponses.
Get it wrong, and you riskre-traumatizing a student who's
already struggling.
Get it right, and you become theadvocate they so desperately
need.
And here's the part nobody wantsto say out loud.
(00:44):
We've been getting this wrong.
A lot.
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, a
little clarity and maybe a touchof rebellion.
You are in the right place.
I'm Steph Johnson, and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
So that radio call just camethrough.
(01:05):
You're halfway through an email,but that doesn't matter now.
You grab your keys and you startwalking down the hallway.
Your heart rate picks up withevery step.
And your mind's already runningthrough the possibilities.
Is he angry?
Scared?
Is he playing to an audience?
The hallway smells likeindustrial cleaner and chicken
(01:26):
nuggets.
You know that smell.
You push through the cafeteriadoors, and everyone turns to
look at you.
The teacher's pacing near thevending machines, her arms
crossed.
The students at a corner tablestaring at the floor, hood up.
The lunch aids have cleared thearea, but there are still eyes
(01:47):
everywhere.
Other students pretending not towatch.
A parent volunteer frozen nearthe door, probably texting
someone about the situation.
The teacher spots you and theysigh, half out of relief, half
out of frustration, and theywalk over with their voice low
but urgent.
He just shut down, won't talk,won't move.
(02:09):
I tried everything.
And now every eye in thatcafeteria is on you.
You're the school counselor.
And the unspoken expectationhangs in the air like humidity
before a storm.
Fix it.
You've got maybe 10 seconds todecide your first move.
(02:31):
Do you approach him directly orgive him space?
Soft voice or firm tone.
Ask questions or makestatements.
Every choice sends a message tohim, to the teacher watching,
and to the students pretendingnot to listen.
And here's the thing (02:46):
you could get this completely wrong.
Come in too soft and you mightreinforce avoidance when he
actually needs to learnaccountability.
Come in too firm and you mightpunish a nervous system that's
already in full fight or flightmode.
You'll push him further intoshutdown, or worse, into an
(03:07):
explosion.
So what do you do?
Here's what nobody told us ingrad school.
They taught us ASCA standards,they taught us how to write
SMART goals, they taught usethics and statistics and crisis
intervention theory.
But nobody taught us how to walkinto a cafeteria full of 200
(03:28):
people and decode a standoff in10 seconds.
Nobody prepared us for the factthat our response in this moment
could either help the studenttrust adults again or teach him
that no one really understandswhat's happening inside him.
So we learn through trial anderror, through hallway whispers,
through that one workshop wewent to three years ago, or
(03:52):
through sheer instinct.
And most of the time, we dookay.
But okay isn't enough anymore.
Because the students who land inthese moments are the ones
who've already been misread overand over.
They're the ones who've beenpunished for panic attacks and
coddled when they neededboundaries.
(04:14):
And when we get it wrong, whenwe misread the state they're in,
we don't just make aprofessional misstep.
We hurt kids.
When you treat dysregulationlike defiance, you add
consequences to crisis.
You essentially tell a child insurvival mode that their nervous
(04:35):
system's distress signals are abehavioral choice.
You teach them that when they'reoverwhelmed, adults respond with
pressure instead of safety.
So next time they won't come toyou, they'll run, or worse,
they'll shut down so completelythat nobody can reach them at
all.
That's the suspension pipeline.
And that's how we lose kids inschools.
(04:58):
But when you treat defiance likedysregulation, you remove the
very boundaries that teachresponsibility.
You teach that avoidance worksand accountability doesn't
apply.
You rob that student of thechance to learn frustration
tolerance.
And the reality that sometimeswe do hard things even when we
(05:18):
don't want to.
Let me give you an example.
Marcus, eighth grader, charmingkid, funny and incredibly
perceptive.
During advisory, he'd wait untilthe teacher started a lesson,
and then you'd see it.
His whole demeanor would shift.
He'd start fidgeting, lookingdown, and then his hand would go
(05:40):
up.
Miss Rodriguez, I'm feelingreally anxious today.
Can I go to the counselingoffice?
And his voice would shake alittle.
He'd look down, fidgeting withhis pencil.
All the classic anxiety signals.
At first his counselor honoredthat.
Of course she did.
It takes courage to name thosefeelings, right?
(06:02):
And that's what we want studentsto do.
But then she started noticingsomething.
He only felt anxious duringadvisory.
Never during PE, never duringlunch, never during the periods
where he got to choose a seat orwork with friends.
And when he got to thecounseling office, he wasn't
dysregulated.
He was chatting, joking.
(06:23):
Hey Miss Chen, can I help youorganize the fidget bin?
Suddenly very interested incolor-coding the stress balls by
size.
No shaky voice, no distress,just fine.
Meanwhile, his advisory teacheris watching 28 other kids and
wondering why Marcus gets toleave whenever he wants.
And the message to the entireclass is crystal clear.
(06:47):
Say the magic words, show theright signals, and you're out.
Marcus didn't need a break fromanxiety.
Marcus needed an adult who couldsee through the performance and
say, I hear you, and I also knowthat you can handle this.
He needed to learn thatdiscomfort isn't danger, that
(07:09):
anxiety doesn't always meanexit.
So his counselor tried somethingdifferent.
Next time Marcus asked to leave,she said, I hear you're anxious.
And I also know you can handlethis.
Let's try five more minutes andthen check in.
And you know what?
He stayed.
And after a few weeks of this,the requests stopped.
(07:32):
By treating his strategicavoidance like dysregulation
initially, we'd been denying himthe growth opportunity he
actually needed.
And here's what nobody talksabout.
Research shows that students whoare repeatedly removed from
challenging situations actuallybecome more anxious, not less.
(07:53):
Their window of toleranceshrinks.
We think we're giving them abreak, but we're actually
teaching their brain that theworld is even more dangerous
than they thought.
Those kinds of errors hurt thevery kids we're trying to
protect.
So, how do you tell thedifference?
Let's go back to that cafeteria.
(08:14):
You're standing there 10 feetaway, everyone's watching, and
here's what you do (08:19):
you start gathering data.
And I'm gonna show you exactlyhow I do this, like you're
inside my head as I'm assessing.
First, I look at his breathing.
It's rapid, shallow.
His chest is moving fast.
Okay, that's physiological signnumber one, but I don't lock in
(08:40):
my read just yet.
I need more data.
I move a little closer.
His hands are trembling slightlywhere they're gripping his
knees.
That's physiological sign numbertwo.
Now I'm leaning towarddysregulation, but here's what
would change my mind.
I glance around.
Are there any peers nearby?
Is there an audience?
(09:00):
No, the lunch aids clear thearea, but his behavior hasn't
changed.
He's still in it, even though noone's watching.
If this were defiance, he'd haveadjusted it by now.
The performance needs anaudience, so this isn't that.
I catch a glimpse of his faceunder the hood.
His eyes aren't defiant.
(09:20):
They're sort of glassy,unfocused.
The teacher said he just shutdown, won't talk.
So I try.
I keep my voice gentle.
Hey, what's going on?
He whispers back, barelyaudible.
I don't know.
And I hear the confusion in hisvoice.
That's it.
(09:42):
That's the tell.
That's not I don't want to tellyou.
That's I genuinely cannot accesslanguage right now.
This is dysregulation.
Let me break down what I justdid because this is the
framework.
There are two categories ofcues.
(10:03):
And you're not looking for allof them.
You're looking for the two orthree that never lie.
If it's dysregulation, here'swhat matters most.
One, the physiological signs youcan see.
Rapid breathing, flushed face,shaking, sweating.
The body is in fight or flight.
(10:23):
You can see the nervous systemactivation.
And two, language goes offline.
You ask them a question and theycan't answer.
Not won't, can't.
They might whisper, I don'tknow, with genuine confusion.
They might repeat what you say.
Or they might go completelysilent.
(10:44):
Not defiant silence, but emptysilence.
And here's the one that sealsit.
The behavior continues even whenthere's no audience and no
reward.
You ignore them, walk away,remove all attention, and the
reaction doesn't change.
They're not performing, they'resurviving.
(11:08):
Now, on the other hand, defiancehas two tells that give it away
every time.
One, the behavior escalates whenyou engage.
You start talking, redirecting,setting a boundary, and the
behavior intensifies.
Your attention is fuel.
And two, it stops abruptly whenthey get what they want.
(11:30):
You say, fine, you can take abreak, and suddenly they're
fine.
If the crisis ends when they getwhat they want, it wasn't a
crisis.
Now let me show you what thatlooks like in real situations.
I will never forget a fourthgrader that I worked with.
I'll call him Jordan.
(11:51):
The teacher would ask him tostart the work and he'd refuse.
Arms crossed, head down,wouldn't respond to questions,
and it looked like classicdefiance.
Deliberate non-compliance,testing limits.
But when I got closer, I noticedsomething.
His eyes weren't making contactbecause he was challenging
(12:13):
authority.
They'd gone classy.
Like he was looking through meand not at me.
And he'd started this lowhumming sound under his breath.
I don't even think he wasconscious of it.
It was just this steady hum.
So I asked him, Jordan, what'sgoing on?
And he whispered, What's goingon?
(12:34):
Echolalia.
He was repeating my words backto me.
Check the signals.
Physiological signs?
Yes.
Glassy eyes, self-soothing hum.
Language offline?
Absolutely.
He couldn't even access his ownwords.
That wasn't defiance.
That was a shutdown.
(12:55):
His brain had left theconversation, and the more I
pushed, the further away hewent.
So I stopped pushing.
I pulled up a chair, not tooclose, just near.
I didn't ask questions.
I didn't make demands.
I just sat there.
And that's what co-regulationactually looks like.
(13:17):
I didn't try to teach himanything in that moment.
I was just bringing my regulatednervous system into proximity
with his.
And after a few minutes, I couldsee it.
His breathing started to slow,the humming stopped, and his
shoulders dropped.
And eventually he looked up atme and he said, so quietly, I'm
(13:39):
okay now.
Meanwhile, the teacher's at herdesk probably wondering if I'm
conducting a meditation sessionor if I'm actually counseling.
If I'd kept pushing consequencesand demands in that moment, I
would have taught him thatadults are not safe when he's
overwhelmed.
Co-regulation is the tool, butknowing when to use it versus
(14:02):
when it will backfire is theskill.
And that's exactly what wepractice together in the
mastermind.
More on that in a little bit.
But let's compare Jordan to Mia,fifth grader.
She'd come to my office lookinggenuinely distressed, fidgeting,
wringing her hands, sometimesthey were even tears.
(14:22):
Miss Johnson, I need to call mymom.
I don't feel good.
My stomach hurts.
And she looked anxious.
She wouldn't make eye contact,her voice was shaking, and all
the signals said dysregulation.
So at first I let her call homebecause that's what we do,
right?
We honor their feelings, wevalidate their distress, but
(14:46):
then I started noticingsomething.
She never felt sick during artor recess or on the days when
there was a substitute in theclass was watching a movie.
Only during classes when therewas a test or a challenging
assignment or partner work thatshe didn't want to do.
And when I finally said verygently but firmly, Mia, I hear
(15:10):
you, and we'll check in afterclass to see how you're feeling.
But right now, you're staying.
You know what happened?
She didn't melt down.
She rolled her eyes, she huffedat me.
She did that preteen, uh, finethat could win an Oscar.
And then she walked back to herdesk and she opened her test
booklet.
(15:30):
Ten minutes later, she was stillfine.
No tears, no stomachache, and itturned out she could do it after
all.
Shocking.
The so-called crisis ended whenshe realized she wasn't getting
out of it.
And that tells you everything.
So in both situations, we hadthe same word, refusal, but
(15:52):
completely different states.
And if you responded the sameway to both of them, you'd fail
one of them.
Now, the initial read is justyour hypothesis.
You don't lock it in during thecrisis, you confirm it
afterward, once the situation isunder control.
(16:12):
There are three questions youask yourself, and yes, the
sequence of these questionsmatters.
Okay.
Question one.
Did the student recoverrelatively quickly and engage in
problem solving?
If the answer is yes, if theybounced back fast, if they can
(16:33):
now talk about what happened andwhat to do differently, that's
pointing toward defiance.
Their brain was online the wholetime.
If the answer is no, if they'restill exhausted, still
struggling to articulate, stillemotionally raw, that's
dysregulation.
The nervous system is stillcoming back online.
(16:55):
Question two.
Does the student show remorse orconfusion about their actions?
Now, be careful here becausethis is where a lot of folks get
tripped up.
Some students have learned thatremorse is the magic key.
They cry, they apologize, theysay all the right things, and
(17:15):
the adults back off.
So you need to ask (17:17):
is this the same remorse I heard last week?
Does the behavior change or justthe apology?
If there's genuine confusion, ifthey truly don't understand what
happened or why they reactedthat way, that's more likely
dysregulation.
(17:37):
If it's performative remorsefollowed by the same behavior
next week, that's strategy.
Question three.
Was this a repeated patternunder similar triggers?
This is the one that tells youalmost everything.
Does the same situation triggerthe same response week after
(17:58):
week, month after month?
Does it happen in multiplecontexts or just in specific
ones?
A student who melts down in mathclass every single Tuesday
during tests, but never duringany other subjects, is not
showing random dysregulation.
That's a learned response to aspecific trigger.
They might genuinely feelanxious.
(18:20):
I'm not saying they're fakingthe emotion, but the pattern
tells you that this isn't anervous system that's constantly
overwhelmed.
It's a nervous system that'slearned.
This situation is too much, andescape is the answer.
That student needs somethingdifferent than the student whose
nervous system is in overdriveall day, every day across all
(18:42):
contexts.
The pattern tells the truthevery single time.
Okay, pause.
I know I just gave you a lot.
Let me show you what thisactually looks like when it all
comes together.
Quick scenario (18:57):
a student refuses to present their project
in front of the class.
They put their head down andwon't respond when the teacher
calls on them, so the teachersends them to you.
In your office, they'refidgeting, they won't make eye
contact with you, and they justkeep saying, I can't do it, I
just can't.
Initial read could go eitherway.
(19:20):
So you start asking theconfirmation questions.
Did they recover quickly?
Nope.
They're still visibly anxious 20minutes later.
Do they show confusion orremorse?
Yes.
They say, I don't know why I getlike this.
I hate that I do this.
Is it a pattern?
Yes.
You check with their teachers,and it happens every time
(19:42):
there's a presentation.
But it also happens with partnerwork and reading aloud in pretty
much any situation where they'rein the spotlight.
That's not strategic avoidance.
That's social anxiety.
This student needs graduatedexposure, coping skills, maybe a
504 plan, not consequences forso-called refusal.
(20:06):
You see how the questions guideyou?
And so at this point, I need totell you something that's going
to change the way you see about30% of your crisis calls.
There are four big mistakes Isee even experienced counselors
make.
And I know this because I'm inconsultation with school
counselors each and every week.
I'm going to walk you throughthese four because once you see
(20:27):
them, you can't unsee them.
Mistake number one, assumingthat remorse always means
dysregulation.
I just told you about this, butit is so common, I'm going to
say it again.
A student melts down, gets sentto your office, and within
minutes they're crying andapologizing.
I'm so sorry.
(20:47):
I don't know why I did that.
I feel terrible.
It looks like dysregulation.
The emotion is real and theremorse seems genuine.
But ask yourself, is this thesame apology I heard last
Tuesday?
And the Tuesday before that?
Does the behavior actuallychange?
Or do I just get really goodapologies?
(21:10):
Some students, especially thesmart, perceptive ones, have
learned that remorse is how youunlock adult forgiveness.
The real tell isn't do they feelbad?
It's does the pattern change?
Mistake number two, thinkingthat quiet withdrawal is always
shutdown.
(21:31):
A student refuses to work, putstheir head down, won't engage,
they look checked out, maybeeven dissociated.
Easy call, right?
Dysregulation.
Classic shutdown.
But watch what happens when yousay, okay, you can take come
take a break in the counselingoffice.
Do they perk up immediately?
Are they suddenly able to chat,make eye contact, joke around,
(21:53):
ask what digits you have?
Because true shutdown doesn'tflip off like a light switch the
moment the demands are removed.
If that dysregulation disappearsthe instant they get what they
want, you're looking atstrategic avoidance, not nervous
system overload.
Mistake number three, missingthe audience.
(22:14):
This one is big.
A student escalates.
They're yelling dramatic, bigemotions.
It feels like dysregulationbecause it's so intense.
But look around.
Who's watching?
Is this happening in the hallwaybetween classes when there's an
audience of peers?
Does it happen in front of theclass but never one-on-one in
your office?
(22:34):
Does the behavior intensify whenother students are nearby?
Real dysregulation happensregardless of who's watching.
If the behavior only shows upwhen there are witnesses, or if
it gets bigger when adultsengage and other kids can see,
the audience is the point.
That's not survival mode.
(22:55):
That's typically socialstrategy.
And mistake number four,ignoring the context pattern.
A student has a completemeltdown in math class.
Screaming, tears can't beconsoled, and all the
physiological signs are there.
Shaking, rapid breathing, can'tarticulate what's wrong.
You look at that moment and youthink dysregulation.
(23:18):
This kid needs co-regulation anda break.
But then you check with theirother teachers.
Oh yeah, this happens every timethere's a test in math like
clockwork.
But she's fine and class neverhad a problem.
Here's what you're actuallyseeing.
Yes, the nervous system isactivated.
Yes, the distress is real.
(23:39):
I'm not saying she's faking it.
But it's not randomdysregulation.
It's an anxiety response to aspecific predictable trigger.
And every time you remove herwhen it happens, you teach her
nervous system math tests aretoo dangerous to face.
Escape is the answer.
This student doesn't needendless co-regulation breaks.
(24:02):
She needs anxiety coping skillsand gradual exposure to the
trigger.
She needs to learn thatdiscomfort isn't danger and that
she can handle hard things.
The pattern tells youeverything.
Same trigger, same responseacross time in a specific
context is not dysregulation.
(24:24):
That's learned avoidance with areal physiological component.
Don't just look at the moment.
Look at the pattern.
Look at what happens before,during, and after.
Look at who's watching.
And look at whether the responsechanges based on consequences or
audience.
(24:45):
That's how you avoid thesetraps.
And look, I'll be honest, Istill have moments when I stand
there and think, I have no ideawhich lane this is.
The framework does not make yousuddenly omniscient, right?
It makes you systematic.
It gives you a way to gatherdata when your gut really isn't
(25:08):
sure.
Now, some of you are thinking,that sounds great, but I 100%
know my admin won't back me up.
Or my teachers thinktrauma-informed means no
consequences.
That's real, right?
I know it is.
And that's exactly why wepractice the language scripts in
my mastermind.
How to frame this in a way thatgets buy-in instead of pushback.
(25:32):
Because you can have the bestframework in the world, but if
you can't get your campus onboard, you're working uphill
alone.
So let's go back to thatcafeteria one final time.
You're standing there, thestudents at the corner table,
hood up, staring at the floor,everyone's watching, the
(25:52):
teacher's waiting for you to dosomething.
But this time you know exactlywhat you're looking at.
You've gathered your data, youchecked the signals, you've made
your read.
Rapid breathing, tremblinghands, glassy eyes, can't
verbalize, no audience, but thebehavior continues.
(26:16):
This is dysregulation.
So you don't demand.
You don't redirect.
You don't launch into problemsolving or pestering them with
questions.
You pull up a chair and you sitand you breathe slowly.
(26:37):
You bring your regulated nervoussystem into proximity with his
and you wait.
After a few minutes, you see it.
His breathing starts to slow.
His shoulders drop justslightly.
The tension in his handsreleases.
He looks up, checks if it'ssafe, and you say, Hey, you're
(27:02):
alright, take your time.
That student just learnedsomething critical.
When his nervous system floods,there's an adult who can help
him come back.
He's not alone in it.
He's not too much, and he's notbroken.
That's what it looks like toread them right.
So here's what I've given youtoday.
(27:24):
The cues to look for, theconfirmation questions, the
common mistakes to avoid.
You can use this frameworkimmediately.
But here's where most schoolcounselors get stuck.
The gray zones.
What do you do when a studentshows both sets of signals?
When your read conflicts withthe teachers?
(27:46):
When you realize 30 seconds inthat you chose wrong and you
need to pivot without losingtrust?
Or what about the teacherconsultation?
How do you explain this to ateacher who thinks you're too
lenient?
What exact language changes howthey see behavior?
Or what about interventionmenus?
What specific strategies fitinto the school counseling
(28:10):
world?
When do things like check-in,check-out, or behaviorism help
versus harm?
That's what we're going topractice together in our
Schocktober Behavior Masterclasson October 19th inside the
School for School Counselorsmastermind.
And here's specifically whatthat looks like.
First, we practice real campusscenarios so that when you're
(28:33):
standing in that cafeteria andyour heart's racing, your bra
when you're standing in thatcafeteria and your heart's
racing, your brain doesn'tfreeze because you've been here
before.
You know what to look forbecause you practiced.
Secondly, we script teacherconsultations so that teachers
start responding differentlybefore the crisis even reaches
(28:55):
you.
They become your partnersinstead of your obstacles.
And third, we troubleshoot thegray zones so that you stop
replaying interactions at 2 a.m.
wondering if you made it worse.
You've been there.
I know you have because so haveI.
Because here's what happens ifyou don't learn this.
(29:15):
Five years from now, you'restill getting those radio calls,
still feeling your stomach drop,still replaying crises in your
head, wondering if you got itright.
Still watching kids getsuspended for behaviors that
were actually cries for help.
Still carrying the weight ofwondering whether you're helping
or hurting.
(29:36):
Or you can learn this now.
Head toschoolforschoolcounselors.com
slash mastermind to join usbefore October 19th.
Because advocacy in schoolcounseling isn't about fixing
kids, it's about reading themright.
Here's what I want you to dotomorrow.
(29:57):
When you get a crisis call andyou We'll get one.
Before you even walk in theroom, take three breaths.
And ask yourself, what am Iabout to look for?
Just that.
Make it intentional instead ofreactive.
Because that's where thisstarts.
All right, so remember how Istarted this episode?
(30:21):
He's refusing to go back toclass, and that was all the
information that you get.
And you know that's how it goesdown.
But now you know what to lookfor.
Now you know what questions toask.
You walked in that cafeteria notknowing what you were looking
at.
Now you can read the room.
You can read the student and youcan make the call.
(30:42):
And that student is going to getwhat they need.
Not because you're the perfectschool counselor, but because
you're willing to look closer.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, keep trustingyour instincts.
You know more than you think youdo.
And those hard moments, the onesthat make your heart race and
(31:06):
your hands shake, those are theones that are teaching you how
to be the advocate your campusneeds.
You've got this.
Take care.
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