September 29, 2025 • 21 mins
⭐️ Want support with real-world strategies that actually work on your campus? We’re doing that every day in the School for School Counselors Mastermind. Come join us! ⭐️
**********************************
PBIS is implemented in over 25,000 schools. Your district swears by it. But does it actually help kids- or just make the data look better?
In this candid episode of my Graded series, I'm giving PBIS the report card it deserves... and it may not be what you expect.
What you'll learn:
- The gaps in the research that nobody seems to mention
- Why equity matters, and how it isn't automatic in PBIS (with studies to prove it)
- The "invisible kids" PBIS never identifies
- Real strategies for counselors working inside PBIS systems
By the end, you’ll know what PBIS can do for your campus... and where you’ll need to step in.
⚠️ This episode challenges the status quo. If you're ready for real talk about what's really happening in PBIS schools, press play.
This episode is highly researched: email for reference citations
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Picture this.
(00:01):
It's 10 15 in the morning at alocal school campus.
There are three kids alreadysitting outside the principal's
office, and they're the samethree kids from last week.
They're even sitting in the samechairs.
Zoe's there for eye rolling andtalking back during math.
Marcus got sent out forwandering the classroom and
(00:24):
humming.
Apparently that was disruptive.
And Aisha, her referral justsays defiance.
But here's what the referralslips don't tell you.
Zoe's parents are gettingdivorced.
Marcus hums when he's anxious.
It's his coping mechanism.
And Aisha asked to use thebathroom three times during the
(00:47):
lesson because her stomach hurtswhen she's overwhelmed.
The principal looks at theirPBIS dashboard.
Office referrals are down 30%this year.
The district is thrilled.
But these three kids are notgetting better.
Their behavior has changed,sure, but it's getting quieter.
(01:11):
Which brings us to the questionthat should keep every school
counselor awake at night.
Does PBIS actually help kids, ordoes it just teach them to
suffer in silence?
By the end of the episode,you'll know the answer, and you
might not like what youdiscover.
(01:32):
Before we go any further, let metell you something your
administrator probably left outof the PBIS training.
Nearly all the research thatthey're using to justify this
system is from elementaryschools.
Suburban elementary schools withstable leadership and ongoing
coaching support.
(01:53):
So when they tell you PBIS isevidence-based for your middle
school, your high school, oryour Title I school with 40%
turnover every year, they'remaking a promise that the
research never actually made.
But to really understand PBIS,we need to start at the
beginning.
Hey school counselor, welcomeback.
(02:16):
In this episode of our gradedseries, we're tackling one of
the most widely adopted behaviorframeworks in schools today,
PBIS, or positive behaviorinterventions and supports.
You've been told PBIS willreduce office referrals, improve
student behavior, and create amore positive school climate.
(02:37):
But does it really deliver onthose promises?
Or is it just another systemthat looks good on paper while
leaving the real issuesuntouched?
I'll share where PBIS actuallyshines: the research that shows
its blind spots, and thecounselor-specific strategies
you'll need if you're working ina PBIS school.
(03:00):
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, a
little clarity and maybe a touchof rebellion, you're in the
right place.
I'm Steph Johnson, and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
All right, so before we gradePBIS, let's be crystal clear
(03:21):
about what we're actuallyevaluating.
You probably know PBIS is athree-tiered framework.
And Tier 1 is the stuff thateverybody sees.
Those are the school-wideexpectations, positive
reinforcement, teachingbehaviors like academic
subjects.
This is where schools post thosecolorful posters, train in
(03:45):
behavior matrices, and hand outPBIS tickets.
Tier 2 adds targeted support,check-ins, small groups, and
progress monitoring for kids whoneed more structure.
And then tier three getsintensive with functional
behavior assessments, wraparoundplanning, and individualized
(04:07):
interventions.
Now here's what youradministrator probably didn't
tell you.
Nearly all the research thatthey're using to justify PBIS
focuses on tier one inelementary schools.
And to be fair, those tier oneelementary studies are strong.
(04:27):
They show PBIS can really shiftthe climate when implemented
well.
But that doesn't automaticallymean that the same thing happens
in middle schools or highschools, or even in tier two and
three supports.
So when they say PBIS isevidence-based, they're talking
about teaching kindergartners towalk quietly in hallways.
(04:50):
That research doesn'tautomatically apply to your high
school, your tier twointerventions, or your kids with
complex trauma.
The evidence base for PBIS getsthinner and thinner the further
you move from suburbanelementary schools.
Remember that.
But let me be fair here (05:10):
PBIS isn't educational snake oil.
The research does show genuinebenefits, and ignoring them
would be dishonest on my part.
Office discipline referrals dodrop significantly.
In the largest randomized trial,which was 37 schools over four
(05:30):
years, kids in PBIS schools were33% less likely to get sent to
the office.
That's one out of every threereferrals that are prevented.
Imagine your current week.
Instead of seeing the same fivekids rotating through the
office, you're seeing three.
(05:50):
Instead of teachers feelingdefeated by constant
disruptions, they're actuallyteaching.
And that means there's morelearning happening.
Bullying decreases, schoolclimate improves, teachers
report less stress.
These aren't small effects we'retalking about, and they're
consistent across multiplelarge-scale studies.
(06:12):
But here's where it getsinteresting.
High schools show much smallerand less consistent effects.
The magic happens in elementaryschools who have stable
leadership and ongoing coachingsupport.
So PBIS works under specificconditions for certain
(06:33):
populations when measured inparticular ways.
Are you starting to see thecracks in this approach?
So then let me tell you aboutthe kids who haunt me.
These are the kids that PBIS isnever gonna catch.
Let me tell you about Maya.
(06:54):
She's not real, but sherepresents dozens of kids that
I've worked with.
Maya is a seventh grader withanxiety.
She sits in the back corner, shenever causes trouble, gets
decent grades.
Teachers love her because she'snot a problem.
But Maya's stomach hurts everymorning.
(07:15):
She has panic attacks in thebathroom stalls.
She's convinced she's stupidbecause her brain goes blank
during tests.
She goes home exhausted from theemotional labor of appearing
fine all day.
How many office referrals do youthink Maya has generated?
(07:36):
You're right, it's zero.
Is she struggling more than halfthe kids who do get referred?
Absolutely.
PBIS research is almost silenton anxiety and depression.
The framework is designed tocatch externalizing behaviors,
the kids who act out.
(07:57):
But what about the kids whointernalize?
What about the ones whoseresponse is to disappear rather
than to disrupt?
We're optimizing a system tocatch the loudest pain while the
quietest suffering goescompletely unnoticed.
That should terrify us.
(08:18):
And while PBIS is missing thosekids, there's even another blind
spot that we need to talk about.
It's not the kids this time,though, it's the tools that PBIS
relies on to shape behavior.
And this is always a hot topicamong school counselors.
(08:39):
PBIS rewards.
PBIS is built on reinforcement,and in most schools, that looks
like tickets, tokens, prizeboxes, pizza parties, right?
The idea is simple.
You reward the behavior you wantto see, and you'll see more of
it.
But here's where it gets tricky.
(09:00):
Decades of research on rewardspaints a complicated picture.
DC Costner and Ryan 1999 foundthat expected tangible rewards
can actually undermine intrinsicmotivation if they feel
controlling.
Think about it.
If students start behaving justto earn a ticket, what happens
(09:21):
when the tickets disappear?
On the flip side, Cameron,Banco, and Pierce 2001 argued
that the undermining effectisn't universal.
Under certain conditions,rewards don't harm motivation at
all.
So what do we do with that?
Here's the takeaway.
(09:42):
Some argue that the underminingeffect is overstated, but I
think the caution is stillvalid.
If PBIS becomes all abouttickets and treasure chests
without thoughtful design and aplan to fade them out, we're
building compliance, notcapacity.
Rewards can buy us short-termcalm, but calm is not the same
(10:07):
thing as growth.
And that's the danger.
When we start mistaking quietclassrooms for thriving ones.
So you may be thinking by thispoint, okay, Steph, I get it,
PBIS has problems, but it's thesystem that I'm working in.
My campus requires it, so whatdo I do now?
(10:29):
And that's a fair question.
It means we need to talk aboutwhat actually happens when
schools try to implement PBIS inthe real world.
Let's talk about the stuff theydon't put in the research papers
when we talk about PBISmeetings.
Imagine it's November.
(10:50):
The PBIS coach is reviewing datawith your team.
Someone mentions that referralsare up in the fifth grade.
The principal suggests morerewards.
The coach talks about reteachingexpectations.
But no one mentions that MissSmith refers twice as many kids
as Miss Rodriguez.
(11:10):
No one asks why defiancereferrals spike right after
lunch.
And no one wonders if the kidsgetting referred are the same
ones who didn't have anybody toeat lunch with.
Here's what the research reallyshows about implementation.
PBIS implementation requiresmassive infrastructure, ongoing
(11:33):
coaching, leadership stability,staff buy-in, data systems, time
for teaching, and reinforcingbehaviors.
And that's not just myobservation.
There are studies to back thisup.
Coffee and Horner 2012 showedthat PBIS sustainability depends
on leadership and resources.
(11:55):
Paws and Colleagues 2019 foundthat schools in statewide PBIS
rollouts only saw benefits whenthey had coaching and systems
support.
Most schools get a two-daytraining if they're lucky and
some posters for the hallway.
Then they wonder why theiroutcomes don't match the
research studies that hadfull-time coaches and monthly
(12:17):
data reviews.
Enthusiasm is not the same asevidence, and a framework is
only as good as the systems thatsupport it.
All right, so we've covered theresearch, the problems, and the
kids being left behind, andyou've been really patient
through all of this complexity.
But let's talk bottom line.
(12:39):
Where does PBIS actually work?
What grade does it earn?
And what should you do about ittomorrow morning?
Here are the real conditions forPBIS success.
Elementary schools with stableleadership, ongoing coaching,
and integrated systems seeconsistent benefits.
(13:01):
When PBIS isn't running as anisolated program, but as part of
comprehensive support thatincludes SEL, mental health
services, and equity audits,that's where the magic happens.
Picture that first school again,but done right.
Teachers get monthly coachingregarding their recent behavior
(13:23):
referrals.
The counselor runs some anxietyscreenings alongside PBIS data
collection.
Tier two interventions arefunction-based, not just
behavior checklists.
And student voice is built intoexpectation setting.
That's PBIS as a foundation, notthe finish line.
(13:45):
It creates calm enough space forreal progress to happen.
It reduces the background noiseso school counselors can focus
on the more complex cases.
But getting there requires veryspecific measures.
So if you're working in a PBISschool, here's your survival
(14:06):
checklist because I'm sorry totell you, with this knowledge,
your job just got a little bitmore intense.
First, don't trust officereferrals as your only data.
Push for climate surveys,attendance patterns, nurse
visits for stomach aches.
Disaggregate everything bydemographics, disability,
(14:28):
gender, teacher, location,because that is where the real
stories live.
That's what we're working onright now in our data
discussions cohort inside theSchool for School Counselor's
mastermind.
Second, build your own mentalhealth radar.
PBIS is never going to identifyall your internalizing kids.
(14:49):
Create screening systems, trainteachers to refer withdrawn
students, and make space for thequiet strugglers.
And third, become the equitywatchdog.
You might be the only person inthose PBIS meetings asking why
certain teachers refer morestudents in certain categories.
(15:13):
It's not a comfortable job tohave, but it is necessary.
And then fourth, make tier twointerventions actually
functional.
Daily check-ins are notcounseling.
Progress monitoring is notrelationship building.
Push for the time to implementinterventions that address why
(15:36):
kids struggle, not just whetherthey comply.
You know, I'll be honest withyou.
And it felt so much better thanthe punitive systems that so
(15:59):
many of us grew up with.
It took seeing too many Mayasslip through the cracks before I
realized we might be measuringthe wrong things.
We were celebrating quieterhallways while students were
having panic attacks in thebathroom.
We were proud of reducedreferrals while the most
(16:20):
vulnerable students became moreinvisible than ever.
That's when I learned thedifference between compliance
and true support.
And that's why I'm asking you tothink bigger about PBIS.
All right, so you've beenpatient.
Time for the report card.
(16:41):
Here's what PBIS does well.
Elementary schools with propersupport see real improvements in
behavior and climate.
So that's solid B territory andsometimes even B, if their
conditions are strong.
But here's where it struggles.
High schools see much weakerresults.
(17:03):
Equity isn't automatic.
It requires intentional design.
And PBIS has significant blindspots when it comes to
internalizing concerns.
Academic effects areinconsistent.
Some studies show gains andothers don't.
And sustainability completelydepends on having coaching and
(17:24):
infrastructure that most schoolsdon't actually have.
So what's the overall grade forPBIS?
A C.
PBIS can create calmer schoolsand reduce certain discipline
problems.
And that has real value.
But it's not comprehensive, it'snot equitable, and it misses
(17:46):
huge populations of strugglingkids.
PBIS is a decent foundation.
But if you mistake thefoundation for the whole house,
a lot of kids are going to endup freezing out in the rain.
So, what do we do with all this?
First, stop wondering does PBISwork?
(18:07):
I can't tell you how many timesI see that question asked.
Instead, start asking, for whomdoes it work?
And who are we missing?
Secondly, use PBIS data as astarting point, not the end
point.
When office referrals drop, digdeeper.
(18:30):
Are kids getting better support,or are they just getting better
at hiding struggles?
And third, become the advocatefor invisible kids.
You might be the only person inyour building systematically
looking for the quiet strugglersor the anxious overachievers or
the kids whose trauma makes themdisappear rather than disrupt.
(18:54):
Your district wants you toimplement PBIS.
I get it.
But I want you to transcend it.
Use it as your starting point,then build the supports that
actually transform lives.
Because here's what I know aboutyou.
You didn't become a schoolcounselor to improve data
(19:15):
dashboards.
You became a counselor to makesure that every kid feels seen,
valued, and capable of growth.
PBIS can help with that goal,but it cannot be the goal.
Kids like Maya, the ones PBISnever even notices, are counting
(19:37):
on you to go beyond the numbers.
And speaking of thinking biggerthan PBIS, if this episode
resonated with you, I want totell you about something that's
been a game changer for schoolcounselors who are ready to go
beyond surface level solutions.
It's called the School forSchool Counselors Mastermind.
(19:59):
And it's where school counselorslike you come together to tackle
the hard questions that PBIStrainings never ask.
Questions like, how do weactually find the Mayas in our
schools?
What do we do when districtinitiatives conflict with what
kids really need?
And how do we advocate forequity without burning bridges?
(20:21):
This isn't just another onlineworkshop or professional
development session where yousit and listen.
This is a community ofcounselors who refuse to settle
for good enough data when kidsare struggling.
We dig into the research, sharereal strategies and experiences,
and hold each other accountablefor creating change that
(20:41):
actually matters.
So if you're tired of feelinglike the only person asking the
uncomfortable questions, you'renot alone.
And you don't have to figure itout by yourself.
Head to schoolforschoolcounselors.com slash mastermind
to learn more about joining us.
Because better counselors reallydo mean better outcomes.
(21:02):
And that starts with schoolcounselors who think critically,
act boldly, and never stopadvocating for every single kid.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, keep asking thehard questions, keep fighting
for the invisible kids.
And remember, better numbersdon't always mean better
(21:27):
students, but better counselorsalways mean better outcomes.
Take care.
Picture this.
(00:01):
It's 10 15 in the morning at alocal school campus.
There are three kids alreadysitting outside the principal's
office, and they're the samethree kids from last week.
They're even sitting in the samechairs.
Zoe's there for eye rolling andtalking back during math.
Marcus got sent out forwandering the classroom and
(00:24):
humming.
Apparently that was disruptive.
And Aisha, her referral justsays defiance.
But here's what the referralslips don't tell you.
Zoe's parents are gettingdivorced.
Marcus hums when he's anxious.
It's his coping mechanism.
And Aisha asked to use thebathroom three times during the
(00:47):
lesson because her stomach hurtswhen she's overwhelmed.
The principal looks at theirPBIS dashboard.
Office referrals are down 30%this year.
The district is thrilled.
But these three kids are notgetting better.
Their behavior has changed,sure, but it's getting quieter.
(01:11):
Which brings us to the questionthat should keep every school
counselor awake at night.
Does PBIS actually help kids, ordoes it just teach them to
suffer in silence?
By the end of the episode,you'll know the answer, and you
might not like what youdiscover.
(01:32):
Before we go any further, let metell you something your
administrator probably left outof the PBIS training.
Nearly all the research thatthey're using to justify this
system is from elementaryschools.
Suburban elementary schools withstable leadership and ongoing
coaching support.
(01:53):
So when they tell you PBIS isevidence-based for your middle
school, your high school, oryour Title I school with 40%
turnover every year, they'remaking a promise that the
research never actually made.
But to really understand PBIS,we need to start at the
beginning.
Hey school counselor, welcomeback.
(02:16):
In this episode of our gradedseries, we're tackling one of
the most widely adopted behaviorframeworks in schools today,
PBIS, or positive behaviorinterventions and supports.
You've been told PBIS willreduce office referrals, improve
student behavior, and create amore positive school climate.
(02:37):
But does it really deliver onthose promises?
Or is it just another systemthat looks good on paper while
leaving the real issuesuntouched?
I'll share where PBIS actuallyshines: the research that shows
its blind spots, and thecounselor-specific strategies
you'll need if you're working ina PBIS school.
(03:00):
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, a
little clarity and maybe a touchof rebellion, you're in the
right place.
I'm Steph Johnson, and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
All right, so before we gradePBIS, let's be crystal clear
(03:21):
about what we're actuallyevaluating.
You probably know PBIS is athree-tiered framework.
And Tier 1 is the stuff thateverybody sees.
Those are the school-wideexpectations, positive
reinforcement, teachingbehaviors like academic
subjects.
This is where schools post thosecolorful posters, train in
(03:45):
behavior matrices, and hand outPBIS tickets.
Tier 2 adds targeted support,check-ins, small groups, and
progress monitoring for kids whoneed more structure.
And then tier three getsintensive with functional
behavior assessments, wraparoundplanning, and individualized
(04:07):
interventions.
Now here's what youradministrator probably didn't
tell you.
Nearly all the research thatthey're using to justify PBIS
focuses on tier one inelementary schools.
And to be fair, those tier oneelementary studies are strong.
(04:27):
They show PBIS can really shiftthe climate when implemented
well.
But that doesn't automaticallymean that the same thing happens
in middle schools or highschools, or even in tier two and
three supports.
So when they say PBIS isevidence-based, they're talking
about teaching kindergartners towalk quietly in hallways.
(04:50):
That research doesn'tautomatically apply to your high
school, your tier twointerventions, or your kids with
complex trauma.
The evidence base for PBIS getsthinner and thinner the further
you move from suburbanelementary schools.
Remember that.
But let me be fair here (05:10):
PBIS isn't educational snake oil.
The research does show genuinebenefits, and ignoring them
would be dishonest on my part.
Office discipline referrals dodrop significantly.
In the largest randomized trial,which was 37 schools over four
(05:30):
years, kids in PBIS schools were33% less likely to get sent to
the office.
That's one out of every threereferrals that are prevented.
Imagine your current week.
Instead of seeing the same fivekids rotating through the
office, you're seeing three.
(05:50):
Instead of teachers feelingdefeated by constant
disruptions, they're actuallyteaching.
And that means there's morelearning happening.
Bullying decreases, schoolclimate improves, teachers
report less stress.
These aren't small effects we'retalking about, and they're
consistent across multiplelarge-scale studies.
(06:12):
But here's where it getsinteresting.
High schools show much smallerand less consistent effects.
The magic happens in elementaryschools who have stable
leadership and ongoing coachingsupport.
So PBIS works under specificconditions for certain
(06:33):
populations when measured inparticular ways.
Are you starting to see thecracks in this approach?
So then let me tell you aboutthe kids who haunt me.
These are the kids that PBIS isnever gonna catch.
Let me tell you about Maya.
(06:54):
She's not real, but sherepresents dozens of kids that
I've worked with.
Maya is a seventh grader withanxiety.
She sits in the back corner, shenever causes trouble, gets
decent grades.
Teachers love her because she'snot a problem.
But Maya's stomach hurts everymorning.
(07:15):
She has panic attacks in thebathroom stalls.
She's convinced she's stupidbecause her brain goes blank
during tests.
She goes home exhausted from theemotional labor of appearing
fine all day.
How many office referrals do youthink Maya has generated?
(07:36):
You're right, it's zero.
Is she struggling more than halfthe kids who do get referred?
Absolutely.
PBIS research is almost silenton anxiety and depression.
The framework is designed tocatch externalizing behaviors,
the kids who act out.
(07:57):
But what about the kids whointernalize?
What about the ones whoseresponse is to disappear rather
than to disrupt?
We're optimizing a system tocatch the loudest pain while the
quietest suffering goescompletely unnoticed.
That should terrify us.
(08:18):
And while PBIS is missing thosekids, there's even another blind
spot that we need to talk about.
It's not the kids this time,though, it's the tools that PBIS
relies on to shape behavior.
And this is always a hot topicamong school counselors.
(08:39):
PBIS rewards.
PBIS is built on reinforcement,and in most schools, that looks
like tickets, tokens, prizeboxes, pizza parties, right?
The idea is simple.
You reward the behavior you wantto see, and you'll see more of
it.
But here's where it gets tricky.
(09:00):
Decades of research on rewardspaints a complicated picture.
DC Costner and Ryan 1999 foundthat expected tangible rewards
can actually undermine intrinsicmotivation if they feel
controlling.
Think about it.
If students start behaving justto earn a ticket, what happens
(09:21):
when the tickets disappear?
On the flip side, Cameron,Banco, and Pierce 2001 argued
that the undermining effectisn't universal.
Under certain conditions,rewards don't harm motivation at
all.
So what do we do with that?
Here's the takeaway.
(09:42):
Some argue that the underminingeffect is overstated, but I
think the caution is stillvalid.
If PBIS becomes all abouttickets and treasure chests
without thoughtful design and aplan to fade them out, we're
building compliance, notcapacity.
Rewards can buy us short-termcalm, but calm is not the same
(10:07):
thing as growth.
And that's the danger.
When we start mistaking quietclassrooms for thriving ones.
So you may be thinking by thispoint, okay, Steph, I get it,
PBIS has problems, but it's thesystem that I'm working in.
My campus requires it, so whatdo I do now?
(10:29):
And that's a fair question.
It means we need to talk aboutwhat actually happens when
schools try to implement PBIS inthe real world.
Let's talk about the stuff theydon't put in the research papers
when we talk about PBISmeetings.
Imagine it's November.
(10:50):
The PBIS coach is reviewing datawith your team.
Someone mentions that referralsare up in the fifth grade.
The principal suggests morerewards.
The coach talks about reteachingexpectations.
But no one mentions that MissSmith refers twice as many kids
as Miss Rodriguez.
(11:10):
No one asks why defiancereferrals spike right after
lunch.
And no one wonders if the kidsgetting referred are the same
ones who didn't have anybody toeat lunch with.
Here's what the research reallyshows about implementation.
PBIS implementation requiresmassive infrastructure, ongoing
(11:33):
coaching, leadership stability,staff buy-in, data systems, time
for teaching, and reinforcingbehaviors.
And that's not just myobservation.
There are studies to back thisup.
Coffee and Horner 2012 showedthat PBIS sustainability depends
on leadership and resources.
(11:55):
Paws and Colleagues 2019 foundthat schools in statewide PBIS
rollouts only saw benefits whenthey had coaching and systems
support.
Most schools get a two-daytraining if they're lucky and
some posters for the hallway.
Then they wonder why theiroutcomes don't match the
research studies that hadfull-time coaches and monthly
(12:17):
data reviews.
Enthusiasm is not the same asevidence, and a framework is
only as good as the systems thatsupport it.
All right, so we've covered theresearch, the problems, and the
kids being left behind, andyou've been really patient
through all of this complexity.
But let's talk bottom line.
(12:39):
Where does PBIS actually work?
What grade does it earn?
And what should you do about ittomorrow morning?
Here are the real conditions forPBIS success.
Elementary schools with stableleadership, ongoing coaching,
and integrated systems seeconsistent benefits.
(13:01):
When PBIS isn't running as anisolated program, but as part of
comprehensive support thatincludes SEL, mental health
services, and equity audits,that's where the magic happens.
Picture that first school again,but done right.
Teachers get monthly coachingregarding their recent behavior
(13:23):
referrals.
The counselor runs some anxietyscreenings alongside PBIS data
collection.
Tier two interventions arefunction-based, not just
behavior checklists.
And student voice is built intoexpectation setting.
That's PBIS as a foundation, notthe finish line.
(13:45):
It creates calm enough space forreal progress to happen.
It reduces the background noiseso school counselors can focus
on the more complex cases.
But getting there requires veryspecific measures.
So if you're working in a PBISschool, here's your survival
(14:06):
checklist because I'm sorry totell you, with this knowledge,
your job just got a little bitmore intense.
First, don't trust officereferrals as your only data.
Push for climate surveys,attendance patterns, nurse
visits for stomach aches.
Disaggregate everything bydemographics, disability,
(14:28):
gender, teacher, location,because that is where the real
stories live.
That's what we're working onright now in our data
discussions cohort inside theSchool for School Counselor's
mastermind.
Second, build your own mentalhealth radar.
PBIS is never going to identifyall your internalizing kids.
(14:49):
Create screening systems, trainteachers to refer withdrawn
students, and make space for thequiet strugglers.
And third, become the equitywatchdog.
You might be the only person inthose PBIS meetings asking why
certain teachers refer morestudents in certain categories.
(15:13):
It's not a comfortable job tohave, but it is necessary.
And then fourth, make tier twointerventions actually
functional.
Daily check-ins are notcounseling.
Progress monitoring is notrelationship building.
Push for the time to implementinterventions that address why
(15:36):
kids struggle, not just whetherthey comply.
You know, I'll be honest withyou.
And it felt so much better thanthe punitive systems that so
(15:59):
many of us grew up with.
It took seeing too many Mayasslip through the cracks before I
realized we might be measuringthe wrong things.
We were celebrating quieterhallways while students were
having panic attacks in thebathroom.
We were proud of reducedreferrals while the most
(16:20):
vulnerable students became moreinvisible than ever.
That's when I learned thedifference between compliance
and true support.
And that's why I'm asking you tothink bigger about PBIS.
All right, so you've beenpatient.
Time for the report card.
(16:41):
Here's what PBIS does well.
Elementary schools with propersupport see real improvements in
behavior and climate.
So that's solid B territory andsometimes even B, if their
conditions are strong.
But here's where it struggles.
High schools see much weakerresults.
(17:03):
Equity isn't automatic.
It requires intentional design.
And PBIS has significant blindspots when it comes to
internalizing concerns.
Academic effects areinconsistent.
Some studies show gains andothers don't.
And sustainability completelydepends on having coaching and
(17:24):
infrastructure that most schoolsdon't actually have.
So what's the overall grade forPBIS?
A C.
PBIS can create calmer schoolsand reduce certain discipline
problems.
And that has real value.
But it's not comprehensive, it'snot equitable, and it misses
(17:46):
huge populations of strugglingkids.
PBIS is a decent foundation.
But if you mistake thefoundation for the whole house,
a lot of kids are going to endup freezing out in the rain.
So, what do we do with all this?
First, stop wondering does PBISwork?
(18:07):
I can't tell you how many timesI see that question asked.
Instead, start asking, for whomdoes it work?
And who are we missing?
Secondly, use PBIS data as astarting point, not the end
point.
When office referrals drop, digdeeper.
(18:30):
Are kids getting better support,or are they just getting better
at hiding struggles?
And third, become the advocatefor invisible kids.
You might be the only person inyour building systematically
looking for the quiet strugglersor the anxious overachievers or
the kids whose trauma makes themdisappear rather than disrupt.
(18:54):
Your district wants you toimplement PBIS.
I get it.
But I want you to transcend it.
Use it as your starting point,then build the supports that
actually transform lives.
Because here's what I know aboutyou.
You didn't become a schoolcounselor to improve data
(19:15):
dashboards.
You became a counselor to makesure that every kid feels seen,
valued, and capable of growth.
PBIS can help with that goal,but it cannot be the goal.
Kids like Maya, the ones PBISnever even notices, are counting
(19:37):
on you to go beyond the numbers.
And speaking of thinking biggerthan PBIS, if this episode
resonated with you, I want totell you about something that's
been a game changer for schoolcounselors who are ready to go
beyond surface level solutions.
It's called the School forSchool Counselors Mastermind.
(19:59):
And it's where school counselorslike you come together to tackle
the hard questions that PBIStrainings never ask.
Questions like, how do weactually find the Mayas in our
schools?
What do we do when districtinitiatives conflict with what
kids really need?
And how do we advocate forequity without burning bridges?
(20:21):
This isn't just another onlineworkshop or professional
development session where yousit and listen.
This is a community ofcounselors who refuse to settle
for good enough data when kidsare struggling.
We dig into the research, sharereal strategies and experiences,
and hold each other accountablefor creating change that
(20:41):
actually matters.
So if you're tired of feelinglike the only person asking the
uncomfortable questions, you'renot alone.
And you don't have to figure itout by yourself.
Head to schoolforschoolcounselors.com slash mastermind
to learn more about joining us.
Because better counselors reallydo mean better outcomes.
(21:02):
And that starts with schoolcounselors who think critically,
act boldly, and never stopadvocating for every single kid.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, keep asking thehard questions, keep fighting
for the invisible kids.
And remember, better numbersdon't always mean better
(21:27):
students, but better counselorsalways mean better outcomes.
Take care.
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