August 4, 2025 • 21 mins
Small group counseling gets pushed as the fix for everything. But what if we’re getting it wrong?
In this episode:
- Why “ASCA-aligned” doesn’t mean effective
- The real reason group work is overused
- How to spot a pretty curriculum with zero impact
Plus, a student story that stopped me in my tracks.
If you’ve ever run a group just to prove you’re doing Tier 2… this one’s for you.
*********************************
⭐️ Want support with real-world strategies that actually work on your campus? We’re doing that every day in the School for School Counselors Mastermind. Come join us! ⭐️
**********************************
Our goal at School for School Counselors is to help school counselors stay on fire, make huge impacts for students, and catalyze change for our roles through grassroots advocacy and collaboration. Listen to get to know more about us and our mission, feel empowered and inspired, and set yourself up for success in the wonderful world of school counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today I'm going to give small group counseling a B
grade.
I'm just going to go ahead andlet the cat out of the bag and
before you turn this episode offthinking that I have just lost
my mind or worse I don'tunderstand how overwhelmed you
are and I'm shortchanging yourgroups Let me tell you why that
(00:21):
grade might actually be very,very generous.
Because most of the small groupcurricula floating around the
internet is frosting, designedas food.
It's pretty, it's sweet, it'ssatisfying in the moment, but
they're not actually nourishingthe kids.
We're trying to help.
(00:41):
The kids were trying to help.
I know, I know that stings,especially if you've got a
folder full of all of your groupmaterials that you paid good
money for.
But stick with me because bythe end of the episode you're
going to know exactly how totell the difference between
groups that look good and groupsthat actually work.
Hey Skull Counselor, welcomeback In this episode of our
(01:05):
graded series.
We're talking about one of themost widely recommended
interventions in schoolcounseling small groups.
It's supposed to help yousupport more students, build
connection and make your programmore comprehensive.
But does it actually work?
Or is it just another feel-goodfix that looks better on paper
(01:27):
than it plays out in real life.
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, some
clarity on your work and alittle bit of rebellion, you're
in the right place.
I'm Steph Johnson and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
(01:57):
I recently started back to workon my campus and I went after
work to Target.
I needed to buy some toothpasteand I was standing there
staring at the shelf and all Iwanted was something simple
right, just grab some toothpasteand go.
But there were all kinds ofother things going on there
Whitening, charcoal, icy, blast,foam, burst, optic, enamel,
shield, whatever.
And for a split second Ithought you know, I wish they
(02:19):
had one called frosting for yourface.
Wouldn't that be fun?
I totally made it up, but Iswear if it had been there I
would have put it in my littlebasket without a second thought,
because in that moment my brainwas so tired of remembering all
the things I needed to do atthe start of this year.
I didn't want anything smart, Iwanted a no-brainer and I
(02:42):
didn't even care if it waseffective.
I just wanted to feel like Ihad a solution in my hand, and
that impulse when we want tograb what looks helpful or fun
instead of what is, is alsoshaping how we're running group
counseling in schools.
The uncomfortable truth is we'renot choosing groups because
(03:05):
they're the right intervention.
We're choosing them becausethey feel like we're doing
something great, something thatlooks official or structured or
supportive enough to calm downthat little voice in the back of
your head that says am I doingenough?
But here's what nobody talksabout.
When your visibility starts tomatter more than your
(03:28):
effectiveness, our students arethe ones who bear the risk.
Now, if you've been in schoolcounseling longer than five
minutes, you've heard it.
What small groups are yourunning?
The school counseling field hasbeen whispering in your ear
like a seductive salesperson.
(03:48):
Behavior issue, groupSelf-esteem concerns, group
Attendance problems.
You guessed it.
Group it's everywhere in theAsk, a National model, it's
hardwired into districtimprovement plans and it's
preached in grad school andsocial media like it's the
(04:09):
gospel.
If you're not running smallgroups, apparently you're not
doing tier two.
But here's what happens inreality.
When I started at a campus as anew school counselor, I remember
a teacher walking up to me andsaying so, when are you going to
get started with Julio not hisreal name and I said what do you
(04:32):
mean.
And she said you know you'resupposed to pull him for a
counseling group.
And I said oh, I didn't knowabout him.
What is the issue?
And the teacher looked at meand she said him what is the
issue?
And the teacher looked at meand she said I don't know, he's
just in every counseling group.
That's when I realized we'vecreated a system where being
(04:52):
helped ultimately ends uplabeling kids.
Okay, so I'm going to give youa challenge and after I give it
to you, I want you to pause thisepisode and think about it.
I'm serious.
Pull up your next groupcurriculum, whether it's
something that you bought online, you got from a colleague or
(05:12):
you created yourself, and try toanswer these three questions in
60 seconds.
First, what specific researchsupports this approach?
I'm not talking about buzzwordslike research-based or ASCA
aligned.
I'm talking about actualstudies.
(05:33):
Secondly, how do you know ifit's working?
What changes do you expect tosee beyond engagement in the
group?
What are the benchmarks thatare going to tell you that
change is actually happening andit's being sustained?
Question three what happens ifa student doesn't fit the format
(05:58):
of this group?
Do you have a backup planinstead of just thinking, oh
well, you know they'll still getsomething out of this.
Pause for a minute and answerthose.
Okay, how did it go?
If you struggle to answer evenone of those questions quickly
and confidently, you're notalone and it's not your fault.
(06:19):
You're working in a system thatsold you frosting when what you
really needed was food.
So now it's time to bring upthe elephant in the room.
Teachers pay teachers In ourSchool for School Counselors
Mastermind, we talk often aboutthe hundreds and hundreds of
dollars that school counselorshave spent on that platform and
(06:43):
you know how many of thoseresources my members say,
actually helped them move theneedle in their school
counseling program?
Maybe 10%.
They were cute, they wereperfectly designed, they were
color-coded.
They had these cute littleicebreaker activities and
discussion cards that make youfeel like you're organized and
(07:04):
prepared.
But when you really look atwhat you're buying, here's what
you'll find.
First, the packaging promisesevidence-based, but when you dig
deeper you'll find that justmeans the creator read a study
about something related to thattopic.
That's not evidence-based,that's borrowed credibility.
(07:28):
Secondly, the activities lookengaging, but engagement isn't
the same as being effective.
A coloring page about feelingsisn't counseling, it's a
coloring page.
And third, the language soundsofficial ASCA aligned,
research-based, provenstrategies, but anyone can say
(07:54):
their resource is aligned withanything.
Asca doesn't vet thesematerials.
There's no approval process andno quality control.
It's like the nutrition labelsthat say made with real fruit,
when what they really mean iscontains 2% apple juice.
So here's what that looks likein practice.
Let's imagine a fifth grader.
(08:14):
We'll call him Marcus and hegets referred to an anger
management group because he'shad three classroom outbursts in
two weeks.
So week one, the group colorsanger thermometers.
Week two, they practice deepbreathing.
Week three, they role playdifferent conflict scenarios.
Marcus participates, he followsdirections and he even seems to
(08:38):
kind of like it, but theoutbursts in the classroom
continue.
I know you've seen this before.
Here's what maybe we don't knowabout Marcus in this scenario.
Is he really angry or is hehungry?
What if his family had recentlybecome food insecure and those
(08:59):
anger episodes were happeningright before lunch every single
time?
No amount of breathingexercises is going to fix that
problem.
But the group looks good onpaper.
It's structured, it has clearobjectives.
It even has a pre andpost-survey that showed that
Marcus improved his emotionalregulation skills.
But meanwhile the real issuegoes unaddressed.
(09:23):
Now, before you think I'mcompletely anti-group.
Let me tell you what the actualresearch says.
Researchers have looked athundreds of school counseling
groups over the past 20 yearsand some of them work incredibly
well, but here's the patternthey found the groups that
(09:46):
actually helped students hadcertain things in common, and
none of them were related tocute graphics.
It was fidelity, structure andthe groups were matched to what
students actually needed, notwhat looked good in a
description.
Studies like Brigham and Webb'sStudent Success Skills program
(10:12):
showed real academic gains, butit was only when the counselors
followed the protocol exactly.
When they modified it or theymixed it with other activities,
the benefits disappeared.
Berger's Bringing Out theBrilliance program worked for
underachieving high schoolers,but it required 45-minute
(10:32):
sessions, trained facilitatorsand careful screening of
participants.
To go even further, a 2019meta-analysis found that
school-based group interventionsshowed statistically
significant gains in behaviorand academics, but only when
(10:53):
delivered with high fidelity andaccurate student matching.
Y'all the research is clearwhen groups are done right, they
can be powerful, but done rightlooks nothing like what most
school counselors are actuallydoing.
Most school counselors areactually doing.
So let's go back to that gradethat I told you about, because
(11:17):
if we were grading just the ideaof small groups as in the
theory and the potential of them.
That's an easy.
A Peer connection reducesisolation, skills.
Practice feels safer whenthere's other kids around and
some students genuinely learnbetter in group settings as
(11:37):
compared to one-on-one.
But in practice, in realschools with real constraints
and real pressures, mostschool-based small groups land
at a C-plus at best.
Here's what brings the gradedown we're running groups
because we feel like we should,not because they're the right
(11:59):
fit for kids.
Materials are being designed forengagement and not
effectiveness.
There's no time to screen orfollow up properly.
Confidentiality becomesimpossible when kids see each
other all day.
That's a nuance that's notpresent in clinical small groups
and we're treating complexstudent needs like they can be
(12:23):
solved with games and coloringactivities.
On the bright side, there weresome things that kept these
small groups from failingaltogether.
When they're done thoughtfully,groups can create genuine peer
connection.
There are some evidence-basedprograms that do exist and do
work.
Unfortunately, they also costsomething.
(12:45):
Small groups can be anefficient way to teach specific
skills and for the rightstudents at the right time,
groups can be genuinely helpful.
So when we put that alltogether, I'm giving small
groups a grade of B but honestly, I'm going to tell you I feel
(13:06):
like that grade is still verygenerous.
Beyond the grade.
Here's what keeps me up atnight, truly.
When we start to default togroups as our go-to intervention
in school counseling, we're notjust wasting time, my friend,
we're potentially doing harm.
(13:26):
Stigma follows students wheneveryone knows who's in the
behavior group or the anxietygroup, even if you give it a
cute name, they're going tocatch on.
That label sticks.
How about the teachers thatlean into the doorway of the
classroom and say, bobby, it'stime for your counseling group?
(13:47):
Those labels stick.
We are also missing the realproblems.
The angry kid might be hungry,the anxious student might need
trauma support and thatwithdrawn teenager might be
neurodivergent and need sensoryaccommodations, not social
(14:10):
skills.
We're also reinforcing the ideathat students are broken.
When every solution is aboutfixing something inside that
child, we not only disempowerthem, but we miss systemic
issues, because a lot of timesthe problem isn't the kid, it's
(14:30):
the classroom or the curriculumor the culture of the school.
The students that we are tryingto help deserve better than
pretty worksheets and borrowedcredibility.
They deserve strategy, theydeserve thoughtfulness and they
deserve interventions that areactually grounded in real
evidence, not aesthetics.
(14:51):
So what would a good group looklike?
What's the gold standard?
We'd be running a group whereevery group decision began with
data, where we weren't startingwith student referrals or
teacher complaints but actualbehavior patterns and academic
indicators.
Then we'd screen everypotential participant with a
(15:14):
brief individual conversation.
We want to make sure that thatgroup matches their needs.
Then we would useevidence-based curricula, not
the pretty ones, the ones thathave been tested with real
students and have shown realresults.
We would measure outcomes, notjust satisfaction.
(15:37):
Did attendance improve?
Did office referrals decrease?
Can students actuallydemonstrate the skills they
learned more than a week or twopast the end of the group?
And then we would have to beunafraid to end a group early if
it's not working, becausesometimes you have to stop and
(15:57):
regroup and refer students toindividual counseling when you
notice that the group topic isnot really the issue at hand.
Y'all this is clinical leveldecision making, not program
performance.
And I know that hits some ofyou funny, because you say,
steph, we're not supposed to betherapists, we're not supposed
(16:18):
to be talking about beingclinical, but when we are
talking about students'emotional health, mental health
and self-concept within thesegroups that we are running in
the environment where they spendthe majority of their waking
hours.
We need to have a clinical eyetoward what we are doing.
In my opinion, if we don't, weare being very reckless.
(16:39):
So where do we go from here?
You're probably worried.
I'm going to tell you throw outall of your group materials,
stop doing groups altogether.
I'm not going to say that, butI am going to encourage you to
get more strategic about whatyou're doing.
Use the group test.
(17:00):
Before you start any group, askyourself these questions, and
they go along with the acronymof GROUP Goals, research,
outcomes, understanding andPurpose.
Here are the questions whatspecific measurable goals are we
targeting?
What research evidence supportsthis approach?
(17:25):
How will we know we got theoutcome we wanted?
Do I truly understand what'sdriving these student behaviors
and what's the purpose of thisgroup?
Is this the best format forthese particular kids?
So that's one.
Use that group test.
(17:47):
Secondly, do an evidence audit.
Look at your current groupmaterials and, for each one,
find the actual research behindit, not the marketing copy, not
the general CBT label on thefront, but the peer-reviewed
studies.
If you can't find any for theapproaches within that group.
(18:09):
It doesn't automatically makeit bad, but it does mean that
you're experimenting and you'renot implementing evidence-based
practice.
Then, third, do a student voicecheck.
Ask your students what did youget out of this group?
What would you change?
Did it help with the thing thatyou thought you came here for
(18:33):
change?
Did it help with the thing thatyou thought you came here for?
Sometimes the answers to thesethings will surprise you and
they will definitely help informyour next small group decisions
.
So remember that Targettoothpaste aisle All those shiny
options promising to solve allof my problems.
When we think about that, werealize that the prettiest
package isn't always the mosteffective product.
(18:55):
Sometimes the best solution isthe boring one, the one that's
been tested and refined andproven to actually work, even if
it doesn't have holographicpackaging.
Your students deserve thetoothpaste that actually
prevents cavities, not the onethat just tastes like frosting,
(19:16):
and you deserve to feelconfident that what you're
offering them has real substancebehind the attractive exterior.
So if this episode made youwant to go audit every group
material in your office, pleasestart small, start with an easy
win.
I'm going to put those questionsfrom the group test into a
(19:38):
download.
Look below at the showdescription and I'll have a link
there for you.
You can download it and,literally in two minutes,
evaluate what you're running.
Or, if you want support tocompletely transform your
approach to groups and, honestly, the way you do all your
interventions, the mastermindgroup is ready.
(19:59):
This is where school counselorscome when they're tired of the
pretty solutions and they'reready for the more powerful ones
.
We have talked up, down andaround about small groups in the
last year.
We have some pretty uniquesolutions to your group problems
and we would love to share themwith you in real time and in
the context of your campus.
You can find out more detailsabout the Mastermind at
(20:21):
schoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind.
And hey, before I go, I justwant to tell you I hope you're
not too mad at me right now Iknow that I just challenged
something that is probably acornerstone of your school
counseling program, but if thisepisode stirred something up
inside of you, that is not a badthing, because it means that
(20:45):
you're paying attention, itmeans that you're working to be
discerning and it means that youcare more about helping
students than about looking busyor cute or cool, and that's
exactly the kind of schoolcounselor your students need.
I'll be back next week withanother episode of our graded
(21:06):
series here on the School forSchool Counselors podcast, but
until then, just remember you'renot responsible for being
perfect, but you are responsiblefor being thoughtful.
And if this episode made youthink differently about your
work, leave us a quick rating orreview in your podcast player.
It helps other schoolcounselors find their way here
(21:27):
too, so we can start generatingsome really powerful
conversations.
I'll be back soon with thatnext episode and in the meantime
, I hope you have the best week.
Take care.
Today I'm going to give small group counseling a B
grade.
I'm just going to go ahead andlet the cat out of the bag and
before you turn this episode offthinking that I have just lost
my mind or worse I don'tunderstand how overwhelmed you
are and I'm shortchanging yourgroups Let me tell you why that
(00:21):
grade might actually be very,very generous.
Because most of the small groupcurricula floating around the
internet is frosting, designedas food.
It's pretty, it's sweet, it'ssatisfying in the moment, but
they're not actually nourishingthe kids.
We're trying to help.
(00:41):
The kids were trying to help.
I know, I know that stings,especially if you've got a
folder full of all of your groupmaterials that you paid good
money for.
But stick with me because bythe end of the episode you're
going to know exactly how totell the difference between
groups that look good and groupsthat actually work.
Hey Skull Counselor, welcomeback In this episode of our
(01:05):
graded series.
We're talking about one of themost widely recommended
interventions in schoolcounseling small groups.
It's supposed to help yousupport more students, build
connection and make your programmore comprehensive.
But does it actually work?
Or is it just another feel-goodfix that looks better on paper
(01:27):
than it plays out in real life.
So if you're ready for somestraight talk, my friend, some
clarity on your work and alittle bit of rebellion, you're
in the right place.
I'm Steph Johnson and this isthe School for School Counselors
podcast.
(01:57):
I recently started back to workon my campus and I went after
work to Target.
I needed to buy some toothpasteand I was standing there
staring at the shelf and all Iwanted was something simple
right, just grab some toothpasteand go.
But there were all kinds ofother things going on there
Whitening, charcoal, icy, blast,foam, burst, optic, enamel,
shield, whatever.
And for a split second Ithought you know, I wish they
(02:19):
had one called frosting for yourface.
Wouldn't that be fun?
I totally made it up, but Iswear if it had been there I
would have put it in my littlebasket without a second thought,
because in that moment my brainwas so tired of remembering all
the things I needed to do atthe start of this year.
I didn't want anything smart, Iwanted a no-brainer and I
(02:42):
didn't even care if it waseffective.
I just wanted to feel like Ihad a solution in my hand, and
that impulse when we want tograb what looks helpful or fun
instead of what is, is alsoshaping how we're running group
counseling in schools.
The uncomfortable truth is we'renot choosing groups because
(03:05):
they're the right intervention.
We're choosing them becausethey feel like we're doing
something great, something thatlooks official or structured or
supportive enough to calm downthat little voice in the back of
your head that says am I doingenough?
But here's what nobody talksabout.
When your visibility starts tomatter more than your
(03:28):
effectiveness, our students arethe ones who bear the risk.
Now, if you've been in schoolcounseling longer than five
minutes, you've heard it.
What small groups are yourunning?
The school counseling field hasbeen whispering in your ear
like a seductive salesperson.
(03:48):
Behavior issue, groupSelf-esteem concerns, group
Attendance problems.
You guessed it.
Group it's everywhere in theAsk, a National model, it's
hardwired into districtimprovement plans and it's
preached in grad school andsocial media like it's the
(04:09):
gospel.
If you're not running smallgroups, apparently you're not
doing tier two.
But here's what happens inreality.
When I started at a campus as anew school counselor, I remember
a teacher walking up to me andsaying so, when are you going to
get started with Julio not hisreal name and I said what do you
(04:32):
mean.
And she said you know you'resupposed to pull him for a
counseling group.
And I said oh, I didn't knowabout him.
What is the issue?
And the teacher looked at meand she said him what is the
issue?
And the teacher looked at meand she said I don't know, he's
just in every counseling group.
That's when I realized we'vecreated a system where being
(04:52):
helped ultimately ends uplabeling kids.
Okay, so I'm going to give youa challenge and after I give it
to you, I want you to pause thisepisode and think about it.
I'm serious.
Pull up your next groupcurriculum, whether it's
something that you bought online, you got from a colleague or
(05:12):
you created yourself, and try toanswer these three questions in
60 seconds.
First, what specific researchsupports this approach?
I'm not talking about buzzwordslike research-based or ASCA
aligned.
I'm talking about actualstudies.
(05:33):
Secondly, how do you know ifit's working?
What changes do you expect tosee beyond engagement in the
group?
What are the benchmarks thatare going to tell you that
change is actually happening andit's being sustained?
Question three what happens ifa student doesn't fit the format
(05:58):
of this group?
Do you have a backup planinstead of just thinking, oh
well, you know they'll still getsomething out of this.
Pause for a minute and answerthose.
Okay, how did it go?
If you struggle to answer evenone of those questions quickly
and confidently, you're notalone and it's not your fault.
(06:19):
You're working in a system thatsold you frosting when what you
really needed was food.
So now it's time to bring upthe elephant in the room.
Teachers pay teachers In ourSchool for School Counselors
Mastermind, we talk often aboutthe hundreds and hundreds of
dollars that school counselorshave spent on that platform and
(06:43):
you know how many of thoseresources my members say,
actually helped them move theneedle in their school
counseling program?
Maybe 10%.
They were cute, they wereperfectly designed, they were
color-coded.
They had these cute littleicebreaker activities and
discussion cards that make youfeel like you're organized and
(07:04):
prepared.
But when you really look atwhat you're buying, here's what
you'll find.
First, the packaging promisesevidence-based, but when you dig
deeper you'll find that justmeans the creator read a study
about something related to thattopic.
That's not evidence-based,that's borrowed credibility.
(07:28):
Secondly, the activities lookengaging, but engagement isn't
the same as being effective.
A coloring page about feelingsisn't counseling, it's a
coloring page.
And third, the language soundsofficial ASCA aligned,
research-based, provenstrategies, but anyone can say
(07:54):
their resource is aligned withanything.
Asca doesn't vet thesematerials.
There's no approval process andno quality control.
It's like the nutrition labelsthat say made with real fruit,
when what they really mean iscontains 2% apple juice.
So here's what that looks likein practice.
Let's imagine a fifth grader.
(08:14):
We'll call him Marcus and hegets referred to an anger
management group because he'shad three classroom outbursts in
two weeks.
So week one, the group colorsanger thermometers.
Week two, they practice deepbreathing.
Week three, they role playdifferent conflict scenarios.
Marcus participates, he followsdirections and he even seems to
(08:38):
kind of like it, but theoutbursts in the classroom
continue.
I know you've seen this before.
Here's what maybe we don't knowabout Marcus in this scenario.
Is he really angry or is hehungry?
What if his family had recentlybecome food insecure and those
(08:59):
anger episodes were happeningright before lunch every single
time?
No amount of breathingexercises is going to fix that
problem.
But the group looks good onpaper.
It's structured, it has clearobjectives.
It even has a pre andpost-survey that showed that
Marcus improved his emotionalregulation skills.
But meanwhile the real issuegoes unaddressed.
(09:23):
Now, before you think I'mcompletely anti-group.
Let me tell you what the actualresearch says.
Researchers have looked athundreds of school counseling
groups over the past 20 yearsand some of them work incredibly
well, but here's the patternthey found the groups that
(09:46):
actually helped students hadcertain things in common, and
none of them were related tocute graphics.
It was fidelity, structure andthe groups were matched to what
students actually needed, notwhat looked good in a
description.
Studies like Brigham and Webb'sStudent Success Skills program
(10:12):
showed real academic gains, butit was only when the counselors
followed the protocol exactly.
When they modified it or theymixed it with other activities,
the benefits disappeared.
Berger's Bringing Out theBrilliance program worked for
underachieving high schoolers,but it required 45-minute
(10:32):
sessions, trained facilitatorsand careful screening of
participants.
To go even further, a 2019meta-analysis found that
school-based group interventionsshowed statistically
significant gains in behaviorand academics, but only when
(10:53):
delivered with high fidelity andaccurate student matching.
Y'all the research is clearwhen groups are done right, they
can be powerful, but done rightlooks nothing like what most
school counselors are actuallydoing.
Most school counselors areactually doing.
So let's go back to that gradethat I told you about, because
(11:17):
if we were grading just the ideaof small groups as in the
theory and the potential of them.
That's an easy.
A Peer connection reducesisolation, skills.
Practice feels safer whenthere's other kids around and
some students genuinely learnbetter in group settings as
(11:37):
compared to one-on-one.
But in practice, in realschools with real constraints
and real pressures, mostschool-based small groups land
at a C-plus at best.
Here's what brings the gradedown we're running groups
because we feel like we should,not because they're the right
(11:59):
fit for kids.
Materials are being designed forengagement and not
effectiveness.
There's no time to screen orfollow up properly.
Confidentiality becomesimpossible when kids see each
other all day.
That's a nuance that's notpresent in clinical small groups
and we're treating complexstudent needs like they can be
(12:23):
solved with games and coloringactivities.
On the bright side, there weresome things that kept these
small groups from failingaltogether.
When they're done thoughtfully,groups can create genuine peer
connection.
There are some evidence-basedprograms that do exist and do
work.
Unfortunately, they also costsomething.
(12:45):
Small groups can be anefficient way to teach specific
skills and for the rightstudents at the right time,
groups can be genuinely helpful.
So when we put that alltogether, I'm giving small
groups a grade of B but honestly, I'm going to tell you I feel
(13:06):
like that grade is still verygenerous.
Beyond the grade.
Here's what keeps me up atnight, truly.
When we start to default togroups as our go-to intervention
in school counseling, we're notjust wasting time, my friend,
we're potentially doing harm.
(13:26):
Stigma follows students wheneveryone knows who's in the
behavior group or the anxietygroup, even if you give it a
cute name, they're going tocatch on.
That label sticks.
How about the teachers thatlean into the doorway of the
classroom and say, bobby, it'stime for your counseling group?
(13:47):
Those labels stick.
We are also missing the realproblems.
The angry kid might be hungry,the anxious student might need
trauma support and thatwithdrawn teenager might be
neurodivergent and need sensoryaccommodations, not social
(14:10):
skills.
We're also reinforcing the ideathat students are broken.
When every solution is aboutfixing something inside that
child, we not only disempowerthem, but we miss systemic
issues, because a lot of timesthe problem isn't the kid, it's
(14:30):
the classroom or the curriculumor the culture of the school.
The students that we are tryingto help deserve better than
pretty worksheets and borrowedcredibility.
They deserve strategy, theydeserve thoughtfulness and they
deserve interventions that areactually grounded in real
evidence, not aesthetics.
(14:51):
So what would a good group looklike?
What's the gold standard?
We'd be running a group whereevery group decision began with
data, where we weren't startingwith student referrals or
teacher complaints but actualbehavior patterns and academic
indicators.
Then we'd screen everypotential participant with a
(15:14):
brief individual conversation.
We want to make sure that thatgroup matches their needs.
Then we would useevidence-based curricula, not
the pretty ones, the ones thathave been tested with real
students and have shown realresults.
We would measure outcomes, notjust satisfaction.
(15:37):
Did attendance improve?
Did office referrals decrease?
Can students actuallydemonstrate the skills they
learned more than a week or twopast the end of the group?
And then we would have to beunafraid to end a group early if
it's not working, becausesometimes you have to stop and
(15:57):
regroup and refer students toindividual counseling when you
notice that the group topic isnot really the issue at hand.
Y'all this is clinical leveldecision making, not program
performance.
And I know that hits some ofyou funny, because you say,
steph, we're not supposed to betherapists, we're not supposed
(16:18):
to be talking about beingclinical, but when we are
talking about students'emotional health, mental health
and self-concept within thesegroups that we are running in
the environment where they spendthe majority of their waking
hours.
We need to have a clinical eyetoward what we are doing.
In my opinion, if we don't, weare being very reckless.
(16:39):
So where do we go from here?
You're probably worried.
I'm going to tell you throw outall of your group materials,
stop doing groups altogether.
I'm not going to say that, butI am going to encourage you to
get more strategic about whatyou're doing.
Use the group test.
(17:00):
Before you start any group, askyourself these questions, and
they go along with the acronymof GROUP Goals, research,
outcomes, understanding andPurpose.
Here are the questions whatspecific measurable goals are we
targeting?
What research evidence supportsthis approach?
(17:25):
How will we know we got theoutcome we wanted?
Do I truly understand what'sdriving these student behaviors
and what's the purpose of thisgroup?
Is this the best format forthese particular kids?
So that's one.
Use that group test.
(17:47):
Secondly, do an evidence audit.
Look at your current groupmaterials and, for each one,
find the actual research behindit, not the marketing copy, not
the general CBT label on thefront, but the peer-reviewed
studies.
If you can't find any for theapproaches within that group.
(18:09):
It doesn't automatically makeit bad, but it does mean that
you're experimenting and you'renot implementing evidence-based
practice.
Then, third, do a student voicecheck.
Ask your students what did youget out of this group?
What would you change?
Did it help with the thing thatyou thought you came here for
(18:33):
change?
Did it help with the thing thatyou thought you came here for?
Sometimes the answers to thesethings will surprise you and
they will definitely help informyour next small group decisions
.
So remember that Targettoothpaste aisle All those shiny
options promising to solve allof my problems.
When we think about that, werealize that the prettiest
package isn't always the mosteffective product.
(18:55):
Sometimes the best solution isthe boring one, the one that's
been tested and refined andproven to actually work, even if
it doesn't have holographicpackaging.
Your students deserve thetoothpaste that actually
prevents cavities, not the onethat just tastes like frosting,
(19:16):
and you deserve to feelconfident that what you're
offering them has real substancebehind the attractive exterior.
So if this episode made youwant to go audit every group
material in your office, pleasestart small, start with an easy
win.
I'm going to put those questionsfrom the group test into a
(19:38):
download.
Look below at the showdescription and I'll have a link
there for you.
You can download it and,literally in two minutes,
evaluate what you're running.
Or, if you want support tocompletely transform your
approach to groups and, honestly, the way you do all your
interventions, the mastermindgroup is ready.
(19:59):
This is where school counselorscome when they're tired of the
pretty solutions and they'reready for the more powerful ones
.
We have talked up, down andaround about small groups in the
last year.
We have some pretty uniquesolutions to your group problems
and we would love to share themwith you in real time and in
the context of your campus.
You can find out more detailsabout the Mastermind at
(20:21):
schoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind.
And hey, before I go, I justwant to tell you I hope you're
not too mad at me right now Iknow that I just challenged
something that is probably acornerstone of your school
counseling program, but if thisepisode stirred something up
inside of you, that is not a badthing, because it means that
(20:45):
you're paying attention, itmeans that you're working to be
discerning and it means that youcare more about helping
students than about looking busyor cute or cool, and that's
exactly the kind of schoolcounselor your students need.
I'll be back next week withanother episode of our graded
(21:06):
series here on the School forSchool Counselors podcast, but
until then, just remember you'renot responsible for being
perfect, but you are responsiblefor being thoughtful.
And if this episode made youthink differently about your
work, leave us a quick rating orreview in your podcast player.
It helps other schoolcounselors find their way here
(21:27):
too, so we can start generatingsome really powerful
conversations.
I'll be back soon with thatnext episode and in the meantime
, I hope you have the best week.
Take care.
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