April 21, 2025 • 28 mins
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Behavior charts. Consequence ladders. ABC data.
They’re everywhere- and school counselors are often expected to be in the middle of it.
But what happens when the behaviorist framework you're handed feels completely misaligned with your counseling instincts?
What if you’re tired of being the “behavior person” when all you want is to help kids feel safe and understood?
In this episode, I'm naming the tension between behaviorism and trauma-informed care, and why school counselors are so often stuck in the middle. We’ll explore how to hold both structure and compassion… and how to begin stepping back into the role that actually reflects your training.
If you’ve ever felt caught between compliance and connection, this one’s for you.
[00:00] Why behavior plans feel off for counselors
[03:00] Behaviorism basics (and why it still dominates)
[06:45] Trauma-informed care: the “can’t,” not “won’t” lens
[10:00] Can you hold structure and compassion?
[14:00] Real-life examples: escape and attention-seeking
[16:30] The problem isn’t just strategy—it’s your role
[17:30] Three frameworks that actually work
[20:00] How to stop being “the behavior person”
[24:00] Four ways to shift the narrative
[27:00] Final encouragement + your next step
References
Barth, R. P., Lee, B. R., Lindsey, M. A., Collins, K. S., Strieder, F. H., Chorpita, B. F., Becker, K. D., & Snowden, L. R. (2004). Evidence-based practice in mental health services for youth. The Journal of Behavioral Health Services & Research, 31(2), 213–233. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02287377
Berger, E., Green, S., & Dalton, L. (2019). Educator perceptions of trauma-informed care in schools: A qualitative study. School Mental Health, 11(3), 483–496. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12310-019-09323-z
Blaustein, M., & Kinniburgh, K. (2010). Treating traumatic stress in children and adolescents: How to foster resilience through attachment, self-regulation, and competency. Guilford Press.
Greene, R. W., Ablon, J. S., & Goring, J. C. (2003). A transactional model of oppositional behavior: Underpinnings of the Collaborative Problem Solving approach. Journal of Psychosocial Nursing and Mental Health Services, 41(11), 20–25. https://doi.org/10.3928/0279-3695-20031101-08
Overstreet, S., & Chafouleas, S. M. (2016). Trauma-informed schools: Introduction to the special issue. School Mental Health, 8(1), 1–6. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12310-016-9184-1
Perry, B. D. (2006). Fear and learning: Trauma-related factors in the adult education process. In S. Johnson & K. Taylor (Eds.), The Neuroscience of Learning and Development (pp. 123–142). Jossey-Bass.
Perry, B. D., & Szalavitz, M. (2017). The boy who was raised as a dog: And other stories from a child psychiatrist’s notebook (3rd ed.). Basic Books.
The National Child Traumatic Stress Network. (n.d.). Trauma-Informed School Strategies During COVID-19. https://www.nctsn.org/resources/trauma-informed-school-strategies-during-covid-19
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Our goal at School for School Counselors is to help school counselors stay on fire, make huge impacts for students, and catalyze change for our roles through grassroots advocacy and collaboration. Listen to get to know more about us and our mission, feel empowered and inspired, and set yourself up for success in the wonderful world of school counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What do you do if you're being asked to intervene
with behavior or write behaviorintervention plans, as we've
been talking about in our lastfew episodes?
But you just don't feel goodabout it.
And it's not because you don'tfeel like you know enough or you
know how to handle behavior.
It just feels fundamentallywrong to your school counseling
(00:22):
position.
If you've been listening to mylast few episodes on behavior
intervention plans, you'veprobably walked away with a lot
to think about and maybe you didfeel uncomfortable.
Maybe these thoughts aboutbehaviorism don't sit right with
you, and that would not besurprising because for many
(00:42):
school counselors, traditionalbehavior approaches feel
misaligned with how we'retrained to understand students.
You're probably feeling thetension between a system that
wants charts and consequencesand compliance and your
instincts that are telling youto slow down and connect.
(01:02):
You might have even foundyourself wondering how you
support students withoutparticipating in practices that
feel more like we're trying tobe in control and less like we
care.
If that's you, I want you tohear this.
You are not looking at thiswrong.
These conversations arecomplicated and as school
(01:25):
counselors, we are often caughtright smack dab in the middle.
In this episode of the podcast,we're going to talk about that
tension, the tension betweenbehaviorism and trauma-informed
care, because, whether werealize it or not, we're using
elements of both of them everysingle day.
(01:47):
Hey, my friend, welcome back.
I'm so glad you're here with mefor another episode of the
School for School Counselorspodcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, a full-timeschool counselor, just like you,
on a mission to make schoolcounseling feel more sustainable
and more enjoyable, and this isthe last in a series of podcast
(02:09):
episodes revolving aroundbehavior intervention.
Now, traditionally thisshouldn't be considered a
primary role for us as schoolcounselors, but unfortunately we
are often tagged as the defaultright and we are called to go
intervene in explosive behaviors, to figure out behavior plans
and what steps come next, aswell as sometimes trying to
(02:33):
assure that everyone iscompliant, and that's a big load
on our shoulders, especiallywhen we never really were
trained to do that kind of work.
And then that tension comes inbetween our counseling expertise
and these behaviorism lensesthat don't quite feel like they
match up very well.
So let's start with the basicsthere.
(02:55):
In the last episode, I talkedin detail about how behavior
intervention plans are built.
We started with observations,we moved through functional
behavior assessments and then wefinally ended up in data-driven
goals and interventions.
That entire process is rootedin behaviorism and while
(03:18):
behavior plans absolutely havevalue on our campuses,
especially when we build themwell, they're also rooted in a
system of thinking that can feelforeign and even uncomfortable
to us.
If you didn't catch that lastepisode, you should go back and
give it a listen.
It'll help give a little bitmore context to today's
(03:39):
conversation.
Behaviorism is fundamentally theidea that behavior is
observable, measurable andchangeable.
It's all about what you can seeReinforcement, consequences,
shaping behavior over time, abc,data, function of behavior.
And if that feels a little bitclinical or mechanical, it makes
(04:04):
sense because early behaviorismwas built on studies with lab
animals.
That's where many of thefoundational principles were
first tested and a lot ofbehaviorism's foundational work.
You probably remember learningabout BF Skinner in grad school.
His operant conditioningresearch all focused on stimulus
(04:27):
response patterns in the lab.
Reinforcement and punishmentwere used to either increase or
decrease behaviors, and thesebehaviorists really didn't pay
attention to the internalemotional or cognitive states
that were driving the behaviors.
So while behaviorism gave ussome powerful tools for shaping
(04:49):
behavior, it also left out anentire dimension, which is a
human being's inner world, andthere's value in that,
especially when we're trying tocreate consistent plans that can
be implemented by lots ofpeople across a school campus
and lots of different kinds ofenvironments, the behaviorist
(05:12):
approach can help us feelorganized and efficient and
confident that we're quoteunquote doing something, and
when we have students whobenefit from structure and
consistency, those behavioristplans can absolutely help.
But then there's trauma-informedpractice, which focuses on an
(05:35):
internal world.
It asks things like what'shappening inside the student,
what's going on in their nervoussystem, how does their
experience shape their behaviorand what would it take to make
them feel safe enough to show updifferently?
This lens is rooted inattachment theory, brain
(05:58):
development research andpolyvagal theory, and
particularly focuses on theunderstanding that behavior
often reflects a physiologicalstate, not a conscious choice.
According to Perry and Solovitz, 2017, children who have
experienced trauma often reactwith survival-based behaviors,
(06:23):
meaning those responses aren'tpremeditated or calculated.
They're protective and we knowthat from a neurodevelopmental
perspective, trauma cansignificantly disrupt a child's
ability to self-regulate or toproblem-solve, or even to
connect socially, especiallywhen that trauma exposure was
(06:45):
early on in life or continues tobe ongoing.
As Dr Bruce Perry explained 2006, the lower brain takes over
during distress and in thosemoments, logic and reasoning
simply aren't accessible.
You've probably talked withyour students about this before,
about flipping their lid withthe hand model of the brain
(07:08):
right.
And when we look at behaviorthat way, it changes the
conversation from won't to can't.
At least they can't yet.
So herein lies the tension.
One approach behaviorism isexternal.
It's focused on what we can seeand what we can change.
(07:29):
The other is internal and it'scentered on what we feel and
understand.
So, if we're honest, theseapproaches do not always play
nicely in the same room.
You may have been in atrauma-informed training that
told you never to ignore achild's dysregulation and then
(07:51):
walked into a behavior teammeeting where the goal was
extinction through plannedignoring or withholding
attention.
Or you've likely heard someonesay that a student is
attention-seeking, with a tonethat implies that they think the
student is manipulating them,when your gut is telling you
it's really about seekingconnection, and here's where we
(08:14):
get stuck.
We are trained in empathy.
We know behavior iscommunication, but we're also
working in buildings that leanheavily on compliance-based
systems, and so we're oftenasked to operate somewhere where
(08:35):
we don't feel comfortable.
We're expected to help studentsregulate without being too soft
.
We're expected to collaboratewith behavior teams without
pushing back on punitivepractices.
And we're expected to advocatefor kids but not challenge the
system that's failing some ofthem.
(08:56):
It's a tall order.
No wonder we feel sooverwhelmed and tired,
overwhelmed and tired.
So what do we do?
Do we just reject all thesebehavior plans in the name of
compassion, or do we stick withthese behavior plans and risk
overlooking students' emotionalneeds?
(09:16):
Fortunately, I think we canhold space in both sides.
We can understand the functionof behavior and consider the
nervous system.
At the same time, we cansupport positive behavior change
while remaining careful thatwe're not pathologizing a
(09:38):
student's response to stress.
We can set boundaries, but alsoprovide safety.
Let's talk about some ways thatmight happen.
Let's say we have a studentthat starts throwing chairs
every time it's time to go tomath.
A traditional behaviorist mightsay the function of the behavior
(10:01):
is escape, but atrauma-informed lens would say
what is it about math that feelsunsafe?
Are they worried about failure?
Do they feel a lack of control?
Did someone once yell at them?
Did someone once embarrass themin math?
And if we can understand bothsides, we can say yes, the
(10:23):
behavior is about escape and weshould be proactively
co-regulating during transitions, or we can build in success
moments or adjust our tone andbody language whatever's needed,
but we can do both.
What about the student that justshouts out whatever's on their
mind all day long?
(10:44):
I bet you've had one of thesebefore.
I know I have many.
The behaviorist view would sayit's attention seeking.
The trauma-informed view wouldsay that may be rooted in some
attachment trauma or maybe thefear of being unseen or
forgotten.
Can we teach the student toraise their hand through a
(11:04):
behavior plan?
Yes, gotten.
Can we teach the student toraise their hand through a
behavior plan?
Yes, but we can also make surethat we're meeting that core
need for connection in ways thatreduce the need for disruption.
This is how we can successfullywork in an area where we're
caught between the science thatidolizes compliance.
(11:29):
Sometimes you might feel likeyou're the only person that's
advocating for a student'semotional needs, because this
over-focus on compliance is alsotied to a lot of school-wide
pressures accountability, data,classroom management
expectations and evenevaluations management
(11:55):
expectations and evenevaluations.
But behavior without buy-inisn't sustainable.
Barth and Team 2004 noted thatprograms that ignore relational
context often see short-termcompliance at the expense of
long-term emotional regulationand resilience.
So, while you might worry thatbringing up trauma will make you
look like you're making excusesfor students it's still
important to be talking about,because we're not going to see
(12:18):
the long-term effects of ourinterventions until we
acknowledge that.
So if you've been carrying someguilt or some resentment that
you're not able to fully protectyour students in these
situations, or you feelabsolutely exhausted from trying
, my friend, I see you.
(12:40):
You are not imagining thatconflict and you are not wrong
for wanting to do behaviorintervention differently.
The good news is this is wherewe shine as school counselors.
We don't have to throw out thedata-driven plans or abandon
accountability, but we can bringa human lens to this work.
(13:03):
We can show up and askquestions like what's driving
this Before we jump into how dowe stop it?
We can advocate forco-regulation or sensory tools
or adult modeling, while stillsetting clear behavioral goals.
And really most importantly, wecan help our teams on campus
(13:28):
stay focused on the why of theplan and not just the what.
But how do we take thisunderstanding that behavior is
both observable and emotionaland turn it into something that
we can use on a school campuswithout being the lone voice
shouting into the wilderness?
There's a better way.
(13:49):
There's a better way.
We need some frameworks at ourback to help promote buy-in and
authority right.
So there are a coupleframeworks that would be great
options.
The first is my favorite RossGreen's Collaborative and
Proactive Solutions Model.
It used to be called thecollaborative problem-solving
(14:10):
model up until fairly recently,but Ross Green's model invites
us to shift from how do we getcompliance to what lagging
skills or unsolved problems aregetting in the way.
So instead of focusing onreward or consequence, it
centers on working with studentsto solve the problems
(14:32):
collaboratively, so that we'reoffering structure but also
compassion.
Research by Green, ablon andGoring in 2003 has shown that
this CPS model bringssignificant reductions in
oppositional behavior anddisciplinary removals,
especially in students withbehavioral challenges who
(14:55):
struggle with flexibility,frustration, tolerance or
executive functioning skills,and it has been used and widely
proven in trauma-sensitiveschools.
You could also use atrauma-informed adaptation of
positive behavior, interventionsand supports, or what we always
call PBIS informed principlesinto it, like emotional safety,
(15:31):
predictability, staff regulationand strong adult-student
relationships in Tier 1 and Tier2 supports.
So this creates a PBIS modelthat supports structure, but it
doesn't sacrifice understandingand care.
And then there's the ARCframework, which stands for
Attachment, regulation,competency.
(15:54):
It's a trauma-focused modelthat emphasizes building
foundational relational safety,which supports emotional
regulation and developmentallyappropriate skill building.
This approach, the ARCframework, has been recognized
as an evidence-based practice bythe California Evidence-Based
(16:17):
Clearinghouse for Child Welfare,and research by Blaustein and
Kinneberg 2010 shows that theARC framework helps students
improve regulation, reducedisruptive behavior and build
more consistent relationshipswith caregivers and educators.
(16:37):
Really, the whole core idea ofan ARC framework is that
students can't show up welluntil their nervous systems and
relationships are strong enoughto hold change.
So each of these frameworkscollaborative and proactive
solutions, a trauma-informedPBIS and the ARC framework show
(17:01):
us that we don't have to choosebetween structure or emotional
safety.
We can ethically do both withintention and with the student
at the center of the process.
So these models do give us apath forward, but let's be real,
they do not solve everything,because underneath all of this
(17:25):
theory and frameworks, there'ssomething deeper at play.
There's theory and frameworks.
There's something deeper atplay, and that's our role on our
campus as school counselors,because the reality is we're not
just stuck between behaviorismand trauma-informed care by
accident.
We are expected to operate inboth worlds, even when one of
(17:49):
those worlds really wasn'tdesigned for us.
The behavior systems in schoolswere not created with school
counselors in mind.
They were built to maintainstructure in classroom
management and to applyinterventions driven by external
compliance.
But that's not how our brainsthink and that's not where our
(18:13):
skill set shines.
We're trained in humandevelopment, attachment,
emotional safety.
We're not behavior technicians.
We're mental healthprofessionals, and while we can
absolutely contribute to theprocess of behavior planning,
that does not mean that weshould be the ones leading it.
(18:35):
In fact, despite my bestefforts over the last couple of
episodes to guide you, if youhave been tagged as the point
person for behavior on yourcampus, we cannot ignore the
fact that trying to own both thedata collection and the
emotional regulation of behaviorintervention just burns us out
(18:56):
and really kind of makes us feellike it waters down what we're
best at.
There's actually research toback this up.
Berger and team 2019 found thateducators, especially school
mental health staff, oftenexperience ethical dissonance
when trying to implementbehavioral strategies that feel
(19:18):
misaligned with trauma-informedvalues.
Team emphasized that counselorsare uniquely positioned to help
schools adopt trauma-sensitivepractices, which means we should
not be absorbing the fullweight of traditional behavior
management systems.
So, yes, we can build bridgesbetween behaviorism and
(19:43):
trauma-informed care.
We can help teams understandthe why behind the student
behavior, but we should not bethe keepers of every chart and
every consequence plan and everycompliance strategy.
That is letting students downbecause we are not honoring our
lane and the value that we bringto our work.
(20:08):
So maybe you're listening andyou're thinking.
You know, steph, that soundsgreat and really idealistic, but
reality is I am the behaviorperson on campus.
I didn't ask to be, I don'twant to be, but I don't have a
choice.
So I want you to know if thatis you.
Yeah, it's frustrating.
I've been there.
(20:28):
I know what that feels like.
But the good news is you maynot be stuck.
Getting out of that kind of arole is not going to happen with
one meeting or one magicsentence, despite what the
internet is going to tell you.
It's going to be a slow shiftand it's going to be one that
has to happen through the wayyou show up and how you reframe
(20:50):
behavior work on your campus,little by little.
If you want to shift out ofthis role, you're going to have
to be committed to the long game, because it's going to be
incremental, but it can be done.
Here's what that could looklike.
First, you could startreframing requests.
(21:12):
When somebody brings you abehavior concern, you don't just
automatically jump intoproblem-solving or plan-writing
mode.
Start by offering somethingthat's actually in your lane.
Let's look at what's drivingthis behavior.
Let's work together and see ifwe can understand what the
student is missing emotionally.
So you're still showing up,you're still being helpful, but
(21:36):
you're shifting the conversationfrom compliance to connection
and you're laying the groundworkfor a different kind of support
.
I think so often on campuses weinstinctively just jump to the
problem-solving mode right,because that's what everyone
expects and we're veryuncomfortable with the idea of
(21:56):
people thinking that we don'tknow what we're doing, and so we
often jump to things that areobservable and measurable, ie
behavior plans and interventions.
But if you can really sit inand be okay with the fact that
the rate of change throughcounseling interventions is
often different than thesecompliance-based mechanisms,
(22:19):
you're going to be okay.
Secondly, you could clarify yourcontributions.
So if you want to get out ofthe behavior side of things,
instead of saying that's not myjob, which never ends well,
right, you could say somethinglike I may not be the best
person to lead this interventionprocess.
(22:40):
I can help with understandingbehavior and I can provide
counseling supports, butsomebody else might need to
manage the day-to-day plan.
So that keeps you in theconversation while naming a
boundary.
Is it always going to work?
No, like I said, this is goingto be an incremental process,
(23:00):
but if you can kind of startscattering these initiatives
here and there, you're going tostart to see the needle move.
Third, and something we talkabout often use your use of time
data to redirect expectations.
Keep the information about howmany hours you've been involved
in behavior programmingthroughout your week versus
(23:23):
other initiatives.
This is also going to involve astrong foundation of know, like
and trust with your schooladministrator, and I wouldn't
recommend jumping into this oneright off the bat, but we have
several members of ourmastermind who have had great
success with showing use of timedata once they got to the right
(23:44):
threshold with theiradministrator.
And last, a powerful approachthat a lot of people don't
really talk about is thatteaching your campus to
self-manage.
Behavior teams often default toyou because they don't know
what else to do, so you canshift that by giving short
(24:06):
specific tools that are alignedwith the issue and with your
training.
You could give teachers asimple bank of regulation
strategies to train theclassroom.
You could give them aco-regulation list.
You could give them a briefsummary that highlights not just
(24:26):
what the student's doing in theclassroom but why they might be
doing it.
Provide an explanation so thatyour school staff learns to lean
on you strategically and notreflexively.
One amazing thing that we'vedone on our campus and I cannot
take credit for this it was notmy idea, but I sure wish it had
been we have a cabinet in ourteacher workroom full of
(24:57):
behavior strategies, charts andthings to try as Tier 1 and
early Tier 2 interventions.
We have trained our staff thatbefore anyone else needs to jump
in to help them, they need totry to help themselves, and that
can be very powerful when itjust becomes a way of doing
business on your campus.
When folks request support andyou're able to say what Tier 1
interventions have you tried onyour own here, come, try some of
these listed in here, itbecomes a big deal.
(25:19):
The beauty of these approaches,of reframing the requests,
clarifying your contributions,using use of time data and
teaching folks instead of justbringing the heap none of those
require some big, bolddeclaration.
I hereby am no longer involvedin behavior intervention plans.
(25:43):
As much as we would like toprovide those, it's just not
realistic or safe.
But they can, with consistency,give you the ability to step
back into what your real roleshould be at school, and that's
empowering y'all.
That feels so good when westart to veer back into our lane
(26:07):
and we start to get moreopportunities to do what we do
best.
All right, this episode has goneon a while, so I'm going to
leave you with this.
I want you to remember behaviorchange in students is possible,
but compassion is alsonecessary and you do not have to
choose between the two.
(26:28):
So stop and think for just aminute.
What's one thing that you mightdo differently this week?
Not trying to fix everything,not trying to make a huge change
, but what one thing can you doto try to bring your work closer
to your lane and your values?
(26:49):
Is it advising behavior teamson emotional responses?
Is it collaborating more oftenwith behavior plans instead of
being the lone ranger?
Or is it looking at some ofthese frameworks like CPS or ARC
and advocating for implementingthem on your campus in the
(27:13):
coming years?
Or is it one of these four mostrecent strategies I outlined
for empowering your own schoolstaff to jump into the mix.
So it's not always you,whatever it is, whatever step
you identify, however small itmay feel, it's going to be a
step in the right direction andI believe in you.
(27:35):
I believe you can do this.
I believe you can make thesechanges on your campus and start
walking toward a morefulfilling role at your school
as the school counselor.
Hey, if this episode spoke toyour heart, make sure that you
check out our School for SchoolCounselors Mastermind, where we
(27:56):
have conversations about thesekinds of things each and every
week, and we also have theBehavior Intervention Playbook.
It's designed for schoolcounselors that are navigating
exactly these kinds ofconversations in a checklist
form, one step right after theother, so you never have to feel
lost or flustered.
(28:16):
So you never have to feel lostor flustered.
We have all kinds of tools likethis in our mastermind that are
practical and designed to helpyou move forward with clarity,
with confidence and with heart,and I would love for you to
check that out.
You can find out more atschoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind.
All right, my friend.
(28:37):
That's all for now.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, I hope youhave the best week, take care.
What do you do if you're being asked to intervene
with behavior or write behaviorintervention plans, as we've
been talking about in our lastfew episodes?
But you just don't feel goodabout it.
And it's not because you don'tfeel like you know enough or you
know how to handle behavior.
It just feels fundamentallywrong to your school counseling
(00:22):
position.
If you've been listening to mylast few episodes on behavior
intervention plans, you'veprobably walked away with a lot
to think about and maybe you didfeel uncomfortable.
Maybe these thoughts aboutbehaviorism don't sit right with
you, and that would not besurprising because for many
(00:42):
school counselors, traditionalbehavior approaches feel
misaligned with how we'retrained to understand students.
You're probably feeling thetension between a system that
wants charts and consequencesand compliance and your
instincts that are telling youto slow down and connect.
(01:02):
You might have even foundyourself wondering how you
support students withoutparticipating in practices that
feel more like we're trying tobe in control and less like we
care.
If that's you, I want you tohear this.
You are not looking at thiswrong.
These conversations arecomplicated and as school
(01:25):
counselors, we are often caughtright smack dab in the middle.
In this episode of the podcast,we're going to talk about that
tension, the tension betweenbehaviorism and trauma-informed
care, because, whether werealize it or not, we're using
elements of both of them everysingle day.
(01:47):
Hey, my friend, welcome back.
I'm so glad you're here with mefor another episode of the
School for School Counselorspodcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, a full-timeschool counselor, just like you,
on a mission to make schoolcounseling feel more sustainable
and more enjoyable, and this isthe last in a series of podcast
(02:09):
episodes revolving aroundbehavior intervention.
Now, traditionally thisshouldn't be considered a
primary role for us as schoolcounselors, but unfortunately we
are often tagged as the defaultright and we are called to go
intervene in explosive behaviors, to figure out behavior plans
and what steps come next, aswell as sometimes trying to
(02:33):
assure that everyone iscompliant, and that's a big load
on our shoulders, especiallywhen we never really were
trained to do that kind of work.
And then that tension comes inbetween our counseling expertise
and these behaviorism lensesthat don't quite feel like they
match up very well.
So let's start with the basicsthere.
(02:55):
In the last episode, I talkedin detail about how behavior
intervention plans are built.
We started with observations,we moved through functional
behavior assessments and then wefinally ended up in data-driven
goals and interventions.
That entire process is rootedin behaviorism and while
(03:18):
behavior plans absolutely havevalue on our campuses,
especially when we build themwell, they're also rooted in a
system of thinking that can feelforeign and even uncomfortable
to us.
If you didn't catch that lastepisode, you should go back and
give it a listen.
It'll help give a little bitmore context to today's
(03:39):
conversation.
Behaviorism is fundamentally theidea that behavior is
observable, measurable andchangeable.
It's all about what you can seeReinforcement, consequences,
shaping behavior over time, abc,data, function of behavior.
And if that feels a little bitclinical or mechanical, it makes
(04:04):
sense because early behaviorismwas built on studies with lab
animals.
That's where many of thefoundational principles were
first tested and a lot ofbehaviorism's foundational work.
You probably remember learningabout BF Skinner in grad school.
His operant conditioningresearch all focused on stimulus
(04:27):
response patterns in the lab.
Reinforcement and punishmentwere used to either increase or
decrease behaviors, and thesebehaviorists really didn't pay
attention to the internalemotional or cognitive states
that were driving the behaviors.
So while behaviorism gave ussome powerful tools for shaping
(04:49):
behavior, it also left out anentire dimension, which is a
human being's inner world, andthere's value in that,
especially when we're trying tocreate consistent plans that can
be implemented by lots ofpeople across a school campus
and lots of different kinds ofenvironments, the behaviorist
(05:12):
approach can help us feelorganized and efficient and
confident that we're quoteunquote doing something, and
when we have students whobenefit from structure and
consistency, those behavioristplans can absolutely help.
But then there's trauma-informedpractice, which focuses on an
(05:35):
internal world.
It asks things like what'shappening inside the student,
what's going on in their nervoussystem, how does their
experience shape their behaviorand what would it take to make
them feel safe enough to show updifferently?
This lens is rooted inattachment theory, brain
(05:58):
development research andpolyvagal theory, and
particularly focuses on theunderstanding that behavior
often reflects a physiologicalstate, not a conscious choice.
According to Perry and Solovitz, 2017, children who have
experienced trauma often reactwith survival-based behaviors,
(06:23):
meaning those responses aren'tpremeditated or calculated.
They're protective and we knowthat from a neurodevelopmental
perspective, trauma cansignificantly disrupt a child's
ability to self-regulate or toproblem-solve, or even to
connect socially, especiallywhen that trauma exposure was
(06:45):
early on in life or continues tobe ongoing.
As Dr Bruce Perry explained 2006, the lower brain takes over
during distress and in thosemoments, logic and reasoning
simply aren't accessible.
You've probably talked withyour students about this before,
about flipping their lid withthe hand model of the brain
(07:08):
right.
And when we look at behaviorthat way, it changes the
conversation from won't to can't.
At least they can't yet.
So herein lies the tension.
One approach behaviorism isexternal.
It's focused on what we can seeand what we can change.
(07:29):
The other is internal and it'scentered on what we feel and
understand.
So, if we're honest, theseapproaches do not always play
nicely in the same room.
You may have been in atrauma-informed training that
told you never to ignore achild's dysregulation and then
(07:51):
walked into a behavior teammeeting where the goal was
extinction through plannedignoring or withholding
attention.
Or you've likely heard someonesay that a student is
attention-seeking, with a tonethat implies that they think the
student is manipulating them,when your gut is telling you
it's really about seekingconnection, and here's where we
(08:14):
get stuck.
We are trained in empathy.
We know behavior iscommunication, but we're also
working in buildings that leanheavily on compliance-based
systems, and so we're oftenasked to operate somewhere where
(08:35):
we don't feel comfortable.
We're expected to help studentsregulate without being too soft
.
We're expected to collaboratewith behavior teams without
pushing back on punitivepractices.
And we're expected to advocatefor kids but not challenge the
system that's failing some ofthem.
(08:56):
It's a tall order.
No wonder we feel sooverwhelmed and tired,
overwhelmed and tired.
So what do we do?
Do we just reject all thesebehavior plans in the name of
compassion, or do we stick withthese behavior plans and risk
overlooking students' emotionalneeds?
(09:16):
Fortunately, I think we canhold space in both sides.
We can understand the functionof behavior and consider the
nervous system.
At the same time, we cansupport positive behavior change
while remaining careful thatwe're not pathologizing a
(09:38):
student's response to stress.
We can set boundaries, but alsoprovide safety.
Let's talk about some ways thatmight happen.
Let's say we have a studentthat starts throwing chairs
every time it's time to go tomath.
A traditional behaviorist mightsay the function of the behavior
(10:01):
is escape, but atrauma-informed lens would say
what is it about math that feelsunsafe?
Are they worried about failure?
Do they feel a lack of control?
Did someone once yell at them?
Did someone once embarrass themin math?
And if we can understand bothsides, we can say yes, the
(10:23):
behavior is about escape and weshould be proactively
co-regulating during transitions, or we can build in success
moments or adjust our tone andbody language whatever's needed,
but we can do both.
What about the student that justshouts out whatever's on their
mind all day long?
(10:44):
I bet you've had one of thesebefore.
I know I have many.
The behaviorist view would sayit's attention seeking.
The trauma-informed view wouldsay that may be rooted in some
attachment trauma or maybe thefear of being unseen or
forgotten.
Can we teach the student toraise their hand through a
(11:04):
behavior plan?
Yes, gotten.
Can we teach the student toraise their hand through a
behavior plan?
Yes, but we can also make surethat we're meeting that core
need for connection in ways thatreduce the need for disruption.
This is how we can successfullywork in an area where we're
caught between the science thatidolizes compliance.
(11:29):
Sometimes you might feel likeyou're the only person that's
advocating for a student'semotional needs, because this
over-focus on compliance is alsotied to a lot of school-wide
pressures accountability, data,classroom management
expectations and evenevaluations management
(11:55):
expectations and evenevaluations.
But behavior without buy-inisn't sustainable.
Barth and Team 2004 noted thatprograms that ignore relational
context often see short-termcompliance at the expense of
long-term emotional regulationand resilience.
So, while you might worry thatbringing up trauma will make you
look like you're making excusesfor students it's still
important to be talking about,because we're not going to see
(12:18):
the long-term effects of ourinterventions until we
acknowledge that.
So if you've been carrying someguilt or some resentment that
you're not able to fully protectyour students in these
situations, or you feelabsolutely exhausted from trying
, my friend, I see you.
(12:40):
You are not imagining thatconflict and you are not wrong
for wanting to do behaviorintervention differently.
The good news is this is wherewe shine as school counselors.
We don't have to throw out thedata-driven plans or abandon
accountability, but we can bringa human lens to this work.
(13:03):
We can show up and askquestions like what's driving
this Before we jump into how dowe stop it?
We can advocate forco-regulation or sensory tools
or adult modeling, while stillsetting clear behavioral goals.
And really most importantly, wecan help our teams on campus
(13:28):
stay focused on the why of theplan and not just the what.
But how do we take thisunderstanding that behavior is
both observable and emotionaland turn it into something that
we can use on a school campuswithout being the lone voice
shouting into the wilderness?
There's a better way.
(13:49):
There's a better way.
We need some frameworks at ourback to help promote buy-in and
authority right.
So there are a coupleframeworks that would be great
options.
The first is my favorite RossGreen's Collaborative and
Proactive Solutions Model.
It used to be called thecollaborative problem-solving
(14:10):
model up until fairly recently,but Ross Green's model invites
us to shift from how do we getcompliance to what lagging
skills or unsolved problems aregetting in the way.
So instead of focusing onreward or consequence, it
centers on working with studentsto solve the problems
(14:32):
collaboratively, so that we'reoffering structure but also
compassion.
Research by Green, ablon andGoring in 2003 has shown that
this CPS model bringssignificant reductions in
oppositional behavior anddisciplinary removals,
especially in students withbehavioral challenges who
(14:55):
struggle with flexibility,frustration, tolerance or
executive functioning skills,and it has been used and widely
proven in trauma-sensitiveschools.
You could also use atrauma-informed adaptation of
positive behavior, interventionsand supports, or what we always
call PBIS informed principlesinto it, like emotional safety,
(15:31):
predictability, staff regulationand strong adult-student
relationships in Tier 1 and Tier2 supports.
So this creates a PBIS modelthat supports structure, but it
doesn't sacrifice understandingand care.
And then there's the ARCframework, which stands for
Attachment, regulation,competency.
(15:54):
It's a trauma-focused modelthat emphasizes building
foundational relational safety,which supports emotional
regulation and developmentallyappropriate skill building.
This approach, the ARCframework, has been recognized
as an evidence-based practice bythe California Evidence-Based
(16:17):
Clearinghouse for Child Welfare,and research by Blaustein and
Kinneberg 2010 shows that theARC framework helps students
improve regulation, reducedisruptive behavior and build
more consistent relationshipswith caregivers and educators.
(16:37):
Really, the whole core idea ofan ARC framework is that
students can't show up welluntil their nervous systems and
relationships are strong enoughto hold change.
So each of these frameworkscollaborative and proactive
solutions, a trauma-informedPBIS and the ARC framework show
(17:01):
us that we don't have to choosebetween structure or emotional
safety.
We can ethically do both withintention and with the student
at the center of the process.
So these models do give us apath forward, but let's be real,
they do not solve everything,because underneath all of this
(17:25):
theory and frameworks, there'ssomething deeper at play.
There's theory and frameworks.
There's something deeper atplay, and that's our role on our
campus as school counselors,because the reality is we're not
just stuck between behaviorismand trauma-informed care by
accident.
We are expected to operate inboth worlds, even when one of
(17:49):
those worlds really wasn'tdesigned for us.
The behavior systems in schoolswere not created with school
counselors in mind.
They were built to maintainstructure in classroom
management and to applyinterventions driven by external
compliance.
But that's not how our brainsthink and that's not where our
(18:13):
skill set shines.
We're trained in humandevelopment, attachment,
emotional safety.
We're not behavior technicians.
We're mental healthprofessionals, and while we can
absolutely contribute to theprocess of behavior planning,
that does not mean that weshould be the ones leading it.
(18:35):
In fact, despite my bestefforts over the last couple of
episodes to guide you, if youhave been tagged as the point
person for behavior on yourcampus, we cannot ignore the
fact that trying to own both thedata collection and the
emotional regulation of behaviorintervention just burns us out
(18:56):
and really kind of makes us feellike it waters down what we're
best at.
There's actually research toback this up.
Berger and team 2019 found thateducators, especially school
mental health staff, oftenexperience ethical dissonance
when trying to implementbehavioral strategies that feel
(19:18):
misaligned with trauma-informedvalues.
Team emphasized that counselorsare uniquely positioned to help
schools adopt trauma-sensitivepractices, which means we should
not be absorbing the fullweight of traditional behavior
management systems.
So, yes, we can build bridgesbetween behaviorism and
(19:43):
trauma-informed care.
We can help teams understandthe why behind the student
behavior, but we should not bethe keepers of every chart and
every consequence plan and everycompliance strategy.
That is letting students downbecause we are not honoring our
lane and the value that we bringto our work.
(20:08):
So maybe you're listening andyou're thinking.
You know, steph, that soundsgreat and really idealistic, but
reality is I am the behaviorperson on campus.
I didn't ask to be, I don'twant to be, but I don't have a
choice.
So I want you to know if thatis you.
Yeah, it's frustrating.
I've been there.
(20:28):
I know what that feels like.
But the good news is you maynot be stuck.
Getting out of that kind of arole is not going to happen with
one meeting or one magicsentence, despite what the
internet is going to tell you.
It's going to be a slow shiftand it's going to be one that
has to happen through the wayyou show up and how you reframe
(20:50):
behavior work on your campus,little by little.
If you want to shift out ofthis role, you're going to have
to be committed to the long game, because it's going to be
incremental, but it can be done.
Here's what that could looklike.
First, you could startreframing requests.
(21:12):
When somebody brings you abehavior concern, you don't just
automatically jump intoproblem-solving or plan-writing
mode.
Start by offering somethingthat's actually in your lane.
Let's look at what's drivingthis behavior.
Let's work together and see ifwe can understand what the
student is missing emotionally.
So you're still showing up,you're still being helpful, but
(21:36):
you're shifting the conversationfrom compliance to connection
and you're laying the groundworkfor a different kind of support
.
I think so often on campuses weinstinctively just jump to the
problem-solving mode right,because that's what everyone
expects and we're veryuncomfortable with the idea of
(21:56):
people thinking that we don'tknow what we're doing, and so we
often jump to things that areobservable and measurable, ie
behavior plans and interventions.
But if you can really sit inand be okay with the fact that
the rate of change throughcounseling interventions is
often different than thesecompliance-based mechanisms,
(22:19):
you're going to be okay.
Secondly, you could clarify yourcontributions.
So if you want to get out ofthe behavior side of things,
instead of saying that's not myjob, which never ends well,
right, you could say somethinglike I may not be the best
person to lead this interventionprocess.
(22:40):
I can help with understandingbehavior and I can provide
counseling supports, butsomebody else might need to
manage the day-to-day plan.
So that keeps you in theconversation while naming a
boundary.
Is it always going to work?
No, like I said, this is goingto be an incremental process,
(23:00):
but if you can kind of startscattering these initiatives
here and there, you're going tostart to see the needle move.
Third, and something we talkabout often use your use of time
data to redirect expectations.
Keep the information about howmany hours you've been involved
in behavior programmingthroughout your week versus
(23:23):
other initiatives.
This is also going to involve astrong foundation of know, like
and trust with your schooladministrator, and I wouldn't
recommend jumping into this oneright off the bat, but we have
several members of ourmastermind who have had great
success with showing use of timedata once they got to the right
(23:44):
threshold with theiradministrator.
And last, a powerful approachthat a lot of people don't
really talk about is thatteaching your campus to
self-manage.
Behavior teams often default toyou because they don't know
what else to do, so you canshift that by giving short
(24:06):
specific tools that are alignedwith the issue and with your
training.
You could give teachers asimple bank of regulation
strategies to train theclassroom.
You could give them aco-regulation list.
You could give them a briefsummary that highlights not just
(24:26):
what the student's doing in theclassroom but why they might be
doing it.
Provide an explanation so thatyour school staff learns to lean
on you strategically and notreflexively.
One amazing thing that we'vedone on our campus and I cannot
take credit for this it was notmy idea, but I sure wish it had
been we have a cabinet in ourteacher workroom full of
(24:57):
behavior strategies, charts andthings to try as Tier 1 and
early Tier 2 interventions.
We have trained our staff thatbefore anyone else needs to jump
in to help them, they need totry to help themselves, and that
can be very powerful when itjust becomes a way of doing
business on your campus.
When folks request support andyou're able to say what Tier 1
interventions have you tried onyour own here, come, try some of
these listed in here, itbecomes a big deal.
(25:19):
The beauty of these approaches,of reframing the requests,
clarifying your contributions,using use of time data and
teaching folks instead of justbringing the heap none of those
require some big, bolddeclaration.
I hereby am no longer involvedin behavior intervention plans.
(25:43):
As much as we would like toprovide those, it's just not
realistic or safe.
But they can, with consistency,give you the ability to step
back into what your real roleshould be at school, and that's
empowering y'all.
That feels so good when westart to veer back into our lane
(26:07):
and we start to get moreopportunities to do what we do
best.
All right, this episode has goneon a while, so I'm going to
leave you with this.
I want you to remember behaviorchange in students is possible,
but compassion is alsonecessary and you do not have to
choose between the two.
(26:28):
So stop and think for just aminute.
What's one thing that you mightdo differently this week?
Not trying to fix everything,not trying to make a huge change
, but what one thing can you doto try to bring your work closer
to your lane and your values?
(26:49):
Is it advising behavior teamson emotional responses?
Is it collaborating more oftenwith behavior plans instead of
being the lone ranger?
Or is it looking at some ofthese frameworks like CPS or ARC
and advocating for implementingthem on your campus in the
(27:13):
coming years?
Or is it one of these four mostrecent strategies I outlined
for empowering your own schoolstaff to jump into the mix.
So it's not always you,whatever it is, whatever step
you identify, however small itmay feel, it's going to be a
step in the right direction andI believe in you.
(27:35):
I believe you can do this.
I believe you can make thesechanges on your campus and start
walking toward a morefulfilling role at your school
as the school counselor.
Hey, if this episode spoke toyour heart, make sure that you
check out our School for SchoolCounselors Mastermind, where we
(27:56):
have conversations about thesekinds of things each and every
week, and we also have theBehavior Intervention Playbook.
It's designed for schoolcounselors that are navigating
exactly these kinds ofconversations in a checklist
form, one step right after theother, so you never have to feel
lost or flustered.
(28:16):
So you never have to feel lostor flustered.
We have all kinds of tools likethis in our mastermind that are
practical and designed to helpyou move forward with clarity,
with confidence and with heart,and I would love for you to
check that out.
You can find out more atschoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind.
All right, my friend.
(28:37):
That's all for now.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
In the meantime, I hope youhave the best week, take care.
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