October 14, 2024 • 27 mins
Consent is an important concept we need to teach in health education courses. To discuss ideas for how to teach about consent is this episode’s guest, Erica Scott. Erica is one of the authors of Creating Consent Culture: A Handbook for Educators. This book includes fun and interactive exercises presented in a trauma-informed way, as well as explanations for how power differentials, differing socialization, past trauma, poor modeling, and systemic inequity impact consent. Erica shares some of the ideas found in her book as well as some information available on the website “Creating Consent Culture.”
To connect with Erica Scott, email her at info@creatingconsentculture.com or go to her website: www.creatingconsentculture.com
Remember to watch this episode on the School Health Educators YouTube Channel at: https://youtu.be/hae3D_3beE8
Contact the host of the School Health Educators Podcast, Lori Reichel, by emailing her at schoolhealtheducators@gmail.com or check out her websites at: www.schoolhealtheducators.org and www.lorireichel.com. Also, check out her products at this link: https://www.lorireichel.com/books-cards/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, and welcome to the School health educators
podcast
where we discuss health education and how to
best teach Health ed in the K wealth
setting.
(00:24):
Hi.
Welcome to the School Health educators podcast, I'm
your host, lower your r.
And today, we're gonna talk about consent.
And we're gonna talk about how we can
teach about consent for our students in the
school setting.
To help you out,
is Erica Scott.
Erica Scott and I are both members of
(00:46):
the sex education alliance.
That the wonderful Kim Cooking of others put
together some years ago.
And so she had reached out to me
to see if maybe she can share some
of her wisdom to health people teaching health
education in the pre k through 12 setting.
So thank you so much for being here
today, Erica, Would you like to say for
(01:07):
audience and also tell us a little bit
about who you are.
Everyone. Thanks so much for having me.
My name is Erica Scott. My pronouns are
they her. I
live in the, on the un seated and
sold mercury of the
Flo and, other consult Sal ish peoples.
(01:28):
And
I got into this
through lived experience.
So I'm a survivor of health sexual abuse,
and that really impacted my boundaries.
I've had issues since my boundaries all my
life. And
when I learned these tools and these exercises,
(01:49):
which I have expanded on,
it helped me so much
with my boundaries with interactions, and I realized
that everyone needs this, and especially for young
people
could use this.
So as a mom of adult children as
well,
I saw that
even people who have not experienced child sexual
(02:11):
abuse are really struggling with their boundaries
because of many factors
in society, and I'll go over those.
And there's a lot of confusion around consent.
And
and how to teach it. So I'd like
to give you some tips.
I,
do teach an online course that a lot
(02:32):
of sex educators take.
And... But today, I'm just gonna go over
briefly,
the that main points.
Apologies.
Thank you. And thank you for being so
candid because this stuff does happen.
Mh.
Absolutely And
You know, 1 of the things that makes
(02:53):
consent more complex
is
past trauma.
A lot of us have it and it
affects our boundaries. It affects how we interpret
the way people are backing towards this, and
it affects how we respond, and that can
make consent more comm complicated
even when you're interacting with someone who's
not trying to be abusive,
(03:15):
we can become an issue. If you have
a history experience moment. So that's 1 of
the thing. 1 of the factors that makes
work complex
then people
so 1 of my issues with consent education
as it's happening in.
And...
Okay. But before I get into that, I'm
so glad that consent education is happening.
When I first started doing this, it wasn't,
(03:36):
and people were, like, we teach consent. What's
that?
Now it's happening. Now it's being added to
the curriculum in different places,
That's wonderful.
And we can do better. Because in a
lot of places, it's still being taught in
a way that's
low key blame that's really focused on just
say no, have better boundaries. Know what you
(03:58):
want. Be firm.
And
I want us to focus on
hearing non.
Hearing no graciously as the most important consent
skilled, but you can all get better at.
Recognizing no,
sometimes a no comes without though actual words
no.
(04:18):
Sometimes a no can even come with the
words yes, Sure. Okay. I guess, but that
doesn't make any guess.
So
You know, 1 thing we do is we
tell young people, only an
enthusiastic yes is a yes, but then we
don't show them what that means that that
looks like what it feels like to be
enthusiastic.
(04:39):
How do you check with yourself to how
your feeling. There are so many skills involved
in consent and having better,
and
they
can't just be talked about as well. They
need to be practice.
So the way the exercises that I teach
give young people give people of any age,
(05:00):
a chance to
in a safer environment,
practice these skills
without touching each other.
And
experience, but it feels like to have your
known
experience, but it feels like to check in
with yourself and notice whether you're yes or
no.
Experience what it feels like to ask for
(05:21):
what you want and have that appreciated. And
actually feel what that feels like. And then
hopefully,
Now you have an embodied sense of these
skills, and you have a better act access
to them later when you're in a more
high states
situation.
So, Erica, you ranked the book, creating consent
culture,
(05:41):
a handbook for educators.
And are some of these lessons in the
book?
Absolutely. Yeah. And I c it
with, Marsha,
who
has done a lot of great work around
us in her life. And it's now very
much focused on asking for what you want,
because a skill,
(06:01):
another consent skill that many the of us
to get better at.
Yes, In that book,
we go over
the exercises themselves
and also why you do these exercises and
what's the underlying
thing that we are combating because
(06:21):
it's not just
teaching the skills is great, and that's what
we need to do. And that's the fun
part, but we also need to understand that
involved in all of this is an un
learning.
We've all rolled
and
some people call it rape culture, in the
book, we call it
culture
and create a larger umbrella because consent is
(06:43):
about so much more than sex.
We've all grown up learning the wrong thing
for media through socialization.
And
we need to have compassion for ourselves and
each other around that.
And if I leave with 1 message, I
would say, let's bring that compassion piece
into this word.
(07:04):
Because
this just triggering for people. When people teach
this work, and when people
learn this work,
They remember things that were done to them.
They remember things that they did to other
people, all kinds of stuff comes up.
We need to have compassion because none of
us knew this before, and we shouldn't act
(07:24):
like they should just
automatically know it. There are so many reasons
why
young people and people general
might be confused about consent.
Beyond past trauma,
we're inundated with messages in the media
that are conflicting and confusing.
(07:46):
You know, in popular movies and shows
behaviors such as stocking is shown as romantic,
1 of the tropes that I really can't
stand that just keeps carrying on and on
is this idea that when people are going
to fall love,
if... When they first meet each other, they
have to hate each other first, and then
(08:07):
they fall love, which has confused generations, I
think, about how this actually works.
And
you know, and then, of course, there's born
which has become more and more. Violent enforcement
it over the years and also more accessible
the people.
And
so there's a lot of very confusing messages
(08:28):
that they're getting.
And then if we're coming to them and
I'm saying, it's really simple.
Either they say yes or no, and
you just need to.
Listen,
then we're
we're
you know, that's again, that's shaming it's
it's making... If they have questions if they're
confused, and now we're just making them feel
(08:50):
badly about that.
And they will have questions, and maybe go
will be confused.
Depending on where you are,
even just the laws can be confusing,
in Canada here, if you're a
a young team, there's a chart to show
who you can and can't go out with,
depending on your age, you know, a couple
of years about couple your gloves,
(09:12):
and it changes.
So it's not simple.
Not even simple.
You know, And then there are questions of
sobriety,
the people have to be Percent sober, you
know, teams have have questions around nets, but
we need to respect to understand
that
they are dealing with lower nuance than just
(09:35):
Yes or no. And
what we talk about in the book, we
talk about moving away from a perm model
of consent? This whole idea that 1 person
asks the businesses yes or no.
And moving towards a collaborative
idea consent.
Where
we wanna play together. Every I wanna have
(09:56):
things that are more fun for them. We
put things on the table. We take things
off the table, we decide what is the
best things of both of us.
We are still stuck in this concept that
is really rooted in
19 fifties kind kinda the heterosexual
paradigm where the guy asks
(10:16):
the woman is the 1 who says yes
or no.
But she doesn't ask for what she wants.
Like,
this is so outdated. It's not that's not
real consent. Real consent happens when everyone can
ask the local alone.
Everyone who say yes or no,
because that's another thing in that
where,
(10:38):
you know,
the
men and boys feeling like they can't say
no.
Being pulled that there's something wrong with them
it. They say no, there's been all week
sex.
There so many myths built into this paradigm.
And we need to get past it, and
we're still not passive it. I taught a
agreed 5 teacher
(10:59):
last year, and she asked her kids
her students, you know,
can a girl ask a guy out, and
the guys were like, yeah. Sure. Anytime, and
the girls were rolling like. No way. No.
We would never do that, then they're gonna
think less of us, or they're gonna think
we're thirsty and can't do that. Where it
(11:19):
would be weird and the guys who were
like, oh no.
But this is still
the idea that's being
sent out through the media, through society.
Girls are asking for what they want is
bad.
Girls wanting anything is that,
I, you know, guys are supposed to know
what they're doing. No matter if they've had
(11:41):
no experience. They're is to take the lead
and direct what's happening.
If a girl knows more, she's supposed to
hide that because
you're not supposed to no war.
There's all these old ideas that are still
being propagated
and
You know, when you look at all the
factors that go into making consent complex.
(12:03):
It feels daunting.
But when we do these exercises, it's actually
really fun. They laugh. They have a good
time, and they learn these skills.
And a lot of times some have these
aha moments of, like, oh, 0, yeah. Okay.
It is okay now see what I want.
And that's really beautiful. I sometimes say, you
(12:24):
know,
fighting fighting rape culture is hard, but creating
different culture is actually fun.
I'm I'm glad that you said a little
bit ago that we recognize
Warren has made an impact regarding
consent. And and I know that Heather Car
recently
wrote a piece. I think it was in
(12:46):
April mere york times about
some of the
imagery that yeah, other people are seeing,
and it's increasing or violent acts. So thanks
for free that off. That that is 1
of the realities of what kids are exposed
to, and we really need to go over,
you know, consent
for
(13:06):
sexual
sexual activity as well as other things.
So if I can ask you some very
concrete questions of, Like, what are your top
3
recommendations for
health educators. What do you recommend they do?
Okay. So first of all,
try
to learn as much as you can about
(13:27):
being trauma informed and bring that into your
inc sessions,
and should always have the option to leave
if they need to or put their head
and limit a desk there should be school
counselors available in case capabilities
1.
People may be triggered. If you do do
these exercises, I always make it optional,
(13:49):
but I really encourage them, you know, these
are fun and the more you do it,
the more you'll get out of it.
So that's 1 thing.
The second thing is
really
focus on
that things are skills that we can learn
(14:09):
that we can practice and that they need
to be practiced.
And
the I teach people
to thank other people when they say no.
And so it starts out with really simple
exercises where they asked for a hug and
they say no.
And then
we talk about how... Even though I told
them to say no,
(14:30):
it was hard and they laughed and they
made a joke out a bit, and we
go over the reasons why it's difficult to
say no. Because
understanding the underlying
problems is where the
need for the stove becomes obvious and
you move into it. So we talk about
(14:50):
why it's hard to say no. And they
can come up with a lot of reasons.
We don't wanna let people down. We don't
wanna hurt people's feelings.
We don't
want people to likeness us,
etcetera.
Now I get them just do it again
and then say thank you.
And then we talk about how that felt.
And
I asked them how. And a lot of
(15:10):
times they'll say it's weird. It's awkward.
To thank someone when they say no.
But then we to sit, They get up,
they walk around and they practice saying no,
and thank you. In ways that feel comfortable
to them. Like, oh, that's cool. Oh, thanks
for letting me know what you want or
don't or you know, hey, I... Thanks for
letting me know what your boundaries are.
Whatever it is, a way that feels comfortable
(15:31):
for them, and by the end of the
workshop, it's not weird anymore, and they're just
doing it.
And it really shifts things.
When you feel like your nose is not
only gonna be heard, but
but appreciate it.
That really shifts something inside. And now I
think you're really gonna notice when that doesn't
happen.
(15:52):
So that's
the main skill
I I really focus on is hearing no
graciously
recognizing, no. We have another exercise
where
they
have to say no to the things they'd
say yes to, and they have to say
yes to things they wanna say no to.
(16:12):
And then, of course, they're making all these
faces and doing these things. I don't talk
about what it looks like when you're not
enthusiastic,
and how to recognize that.
Also very important getting them to check in
with themselves and notice how they're feeling. And
I used the word notice on purpose.
That
is because we can
(16:34):
always change our minds, and it's normal and
to change our minds. Things our feelings are
always changing.
So
it's important to notice
what we're feeling in this moment and if
it's changing,
a lot of us can get into trouble
that way by not noticing that our feeling
they're changing as something progresses.
(16:56):
I talk to them about the difference between
liking and wanting something.
You might like Sushi, but that doesn't mean
you want Sushi right now.
So great to know what you like, but
notice what you're wanting right now,
and we have exercises for checking animal cells.
So you said
earlier that the first thing that a teacher
should do is to recognize
(17:18):
what trauma informed education is about because they
send me t.
So how do you make sure that you
set up an environment that if someone is
feeling triggered? They're okay.
Right.
I mean,
you can never guarantee
that
everyone's gonna be a hundred percent okay.
(17:39):
This is a safer environment, though for them
to be triggered and have resources available to
them.
So
you just make sure they know, but there's
somewhere for them to go if they need
to talk to someone.
Often during or after these workshops,
kids will go and talk to the school
counselor and disclose the abuse
(18:00):
that happens.
And then we just need to have that
that up and in place.
Just by saying, you know, this brings this
topic brings up stuff for people.
And it's okay to have feelings.
Then if the feelings we become too much,
You know, it's okay in the room, go
to wash and get a do better okay
(18:21):
to put your head down on the desk.
And it's okay to sit out and exercise
and watch, but I just wanna encourage you.
The more you do the more you'll get
out of it. III
appreciate that you said, you know, per set
up a same environment. It'll be a safer
environment.
Because some people, it seems like they want
to not have people
(18:42):
reflect a note this happened.
And my professional
philosophy has always been. You know, if a
child can get health sooner,
they can be healthy soon.
Like, yeah, It might be triggering. And I
used to work with elementary school children in
my first job I had is a school
mountain educator and I did a program that
(19:03):
dealt with
was with puppets, it was the babe program
at the time with these puppets and stuff.
And 1 of the lessons talked about a
program touch.
And when I did that lesson with children,
it was very exhausting because it is so
emotional and so many children react like, all
of that stuff. Right? And
(19:23):
and then there is a live disclosure
again.
I want these children to get health as
soon as possible and to recognize there are
safe people who can go to. So let's
start the healing process sooner.
Exactly. And you know, you brought up something
that I think it's important
The big part of being able to hold
a trauma inform space is to work through
(19:45):
our own trauma.
And
and recognize our own trauma responses,
understand how we respond and how we feel
when things come up for us
and
each prepared for that and understand that we
may need to take a breath
or leave the room.
It's possible. So... Or, you know, hopefully them
(20:07):
get to a place where you aren't gonna
be triggered like that before your teaching is
myself.
But also the more for refill this alone.
This brings up stuff for people. It's bring...
And it's very hard
to your children disclose of abuse
it's
hard to
you know, and I have,
(20:28):
I'm not sure if I have listed on
my website, but it's part of my force
is the best practice for,
you know,
hearing disclosure for,
receiving disclosure.
And,
you know,
a big part of that is not
projecting any of your stuff
into him. Just being able to as some
(20:49):
see and eat calm and steady.
Yeah.
That's again. Erica, thank you so much for
bringing up that you have a website. I
just pulled it up on the screen. So
those people that are watching, the school health
educators podcast on the Youtube channel? They can
see it.
Can you tell us a little bit about
your site? Because there's a bunch of resources
(21:12):
here?
Now. That's the resources page.
You
go to the,
homepage. It says more about,
what I'm doing right now.
You do have a,
reader guide for educators.
And,
On the about page, you can seek them
of my certified facilitator.
(21:33):
So I have been teaching people online
in Europe in Africa, in
North America,
how to lead these exercises, how to do
this workshop,
and,
these are just some of the people have
been certified. I'm still getting more up on
the site.
And
(21:55):
and then,
in the trainings. It shows the different kind
of trainings that I do. So I do
pro day presentations. I do train the trainers
for educators.
And I
do the workshop in schools. I can come
and do the workshops in in schools.
So
yeah. And I also have
(22:16):
consent lesson plans on teachers pay teachers and
on learn worlds.
I love working with people. I love collaborating
with people. If you have an idea for
us to collaborate
together,
on a project,
don't feel shy to reach out. I love
doing that. Oh, I have a blog.
There's some
(22:36):
podcast, the podcast interviews and,
articles in there as well.
Wonderful.
So since we're filming to the end of
our recording today, do you have any last
comments
for our listeners.
Okay. So 1 of the things that students
and people in general tell me
(22:57):
that The most important thing that they've heard
in the workshop is when I talk about
the freeze response.
Most of us grew up learning about fight
and flight
but it's actually fight flight freeze and fun.
And I don't know enough about fun, but
freeze
is actually the most common response to sexual
sexual assault. And it's the most common response
(23:18):
for children as well.
And because the free response isn't very well
understood, it leads to a lot of victim
blaming and shape shaming, even by victims themselves.
And when we can teach people about the
freezer response,
we can give them a lot of relief
thinner at.
So
it's so important to me, just spread the
(23:39):
word and I hope you do too
about
that the freeze response is an autonomic response,
it happens in less than 15 milliseconds. It's
out of our conscious control. It's what the
body has decided is our best survival strategy.
And 1 myth about sexual assault is that
it's allowed thing where just fighting and yelling.
(23:59):
In fact, it's generally very quiet with a
not a lot of movement because the victim
is having freeze response.
Then
people
you know, afterwards, like, why didn't I say
back, why didn't I say no. I know
for myself,
I didn't when I didn't understand about the
3 response, I blame to myself and thought
I must just be a win. I must
(24:21):
not have what it takes to like that.
When I learned about the freezer response, I
was like, this explains things because it's so
weird. Feel like you can do anything.
So... And you can't. Your body has shut
you down.
So,
we still don't have enough understanding of the
previous response in society,
(24:42):
police.
Courts.
There's... So we need to spread the word,
so people understand that this is the most
common response to sexual assault and
if someone tells you that they didn't say
no, They didn't fight back rather than questioning
them why tell them, they probably had free
(25:02):
response.
Right.
And that it wasn't called. Their body was
doing what it needed to ding to survive.
That such a great light to free up
because that bite or or flight. We heard
that some for so many years in psychology
and all. Yeah. We do have this,
(25:23):
frozen.
Yeah, we're frozen.
So much prefer bringing that it. Yeah.
And if somebody wants to get into contact
with you, how can they do?
Yeah. I have all my
that information on my website, creating consent culture
dot com.
I also have a Facebook page and in
1 ans instagram,
I'm on the linkedin,
(25:46):
both as Erica gust dot, and that's creating
it approach.
2 c's do retail. I'd love to hear
you. I'd love to sort queue and
yeah.
Thank you so much for you. I sharing
you wisdom.
And I I would like to say keep
up the good work,
sex educators you are
heroes,
(26:06):
and it's friends. And
everyone of as a hero and thought, thank
you for the repeating. Yeah. Going forward.
Yeah.
Well, thank you again so much for being
here and to our listeners, I will have
links for Erica
information and for how to get contact
with Erica, it'll be on today's subscription.
(26:28):
So I thank you so much for listening
in. And please remember to follow this podcast
on your favorite podcast but form and give
us some 5 star ratings that'd been wonderful.
Also, please check out the school health educators
websites,
that's school health educators dot org.
And member, you make a difference.
You matter. Thank you for doing what you're
(26:49):
doing and stay well folks.
Hi, and welcome to the School health educators
podcast
where we discuss health education and how to
best teach Health ed in the K wealth
setting.
(00:24):
Hi.
Welcome to the School Health educators podcast, I'm
your host, lower your r.
And today, we're gonna talk about consent.
And we're gonna talk about how we can
teach about consent for our students in the
school setting.
To help you out,
is Erica Scott.
Erica Scott and I are both members of
(00:46):
the sex education alliance.
That the wonderful Kim Cooking of others put
together some years ago.
And so she had reached out to me
to see if maybe she can share some
of her wisdom to health people teaching health
education in the pre k through 12 setting.
So thank you so much for being here
today, Erica, Would you like to say for
(01:07):
audience and also tell us a little bit
about who you are.
Everyone. Thanks so much for having me.
My name is Erica Scott. My pronouns are
they her. I
live in the, on the un seated and
sold mercury of the
Flo and, other consult Sal ish peoples.
(01:28):
And
I got into this
through lived experience.
So I'm a survivor of health sexual abuse,
and that really impacted my boundaries.
I've had issues since my boundaries all my
life. And
when I learned these tools and these exercises,
(01:49):
which I have expanded on,
it helped me so much
with my boundaries with interactions, and I realized
that everyone needs this, and especially for young
people
could use this.
So as a mom of adult children as
well,
I saw that
even people who have not experienced child sexual
(02:11):
abuse are really struggling with their boundaries
because of many factors
in society, and I'll go over those.
And there's a lot of confusion around consent.
And
and how to teach it. So I'd like
to give you some tips.
I,
do teach an online course that a lot
(02:32):
of sex educators take.
And... But today, I'm just gonna go over
briefly,
the that main points.
Apologies.
Thank you. And thank you for being so
candid because this stuff does happen.
Mh.
Absolutely And
You know, 1 of the things that makes
(02:53):
consent more complex
is
past trauma.
A lot of us have it and it
affects our boundaries. It affects how we interpret
the way people are backing towards this, and
it affects how we respond, and that can
make consent more comm complicated
even when you're interacting with someone who's
not trying to be abusive,
(03:15):
we can become an issue. If you have
a history experience moment. So that's 1 of
the thing. 1 of the factors that makes
work complex
then people
so 1 of my issues with consent education
as it's happening in.
And...
Okay. But before I get into that, I'm
so glad that consent education is happening.
When I first started doing this, it wasn't,
(03:36):
and people were, like, we teach consent. What's
that?
Now it's happening. Now it's being added to
the curriculum in different places,
That's wonderful.
And we can do better. Because in a
lot of places, it's still being taught in
a way that's
low key blame that's really focused on just
say no, have better boundaries. Know what you
(03:58):
want. Be firm.
And
I want us to focus on
hearing non.
Hearing no graciously as the most important consent
skilled, but you can all get better at.
Recognizing no,
sometimes a no comes without though actual words
no.
(04:18):
Sometimes a no can even come with the
words yes, Sure. Okay. I guess, but that
doesn't make any guess.
So
You know, 1 thing we do is we
tell young people, only an
enthusiastic yes is a yes, but then we
don't show them what that means that that
looks like what it feels like to be
enthusiastic.
(04:39):
How do you check with yourself to how
your feeling. There are so many skills involved
in consent and having better,
and
they
can't just be talked about as well. They
need to be practice.
So the way the exercises that I teach
give young people give people of any age,
(05:00):
a chance to
in a safer environment,
practice these skills
without touching each other.
And
experience, but it feels like to have your
known
experience, but it feels like to check in
with yourself and notice whether you're yes or
no.
Experience what it feels like to ask for
(05:21):
what you want and have that appreciated. And
actually feel what that feels like. And then
hopefully,
Now you have an embodied sense of these
skills, and you have a better act access
to them later when you're in a more
high states
situation.
So, Erica, you ranked the book, creating consent
culture,
(05:41):
a handbook for educators.
And are some of these lessons in the
book?
Absolutely. Yeah. And I c it
with, Marsha,
who
has done a lot of great work around
us in her life. And it's now very
much focused on asking for what you want,
because a skill,
(06:01):
another consent skill that many the of us
to get better at.
Yes, In that book,
we go over
the exercises themselves
and also why you do these exercises and
what's the underlying
thing that we are combating because
(06:21):
it's not just
teaching the skills is great, and that's what
we need to do. And that's the fun
part, but we also need to understand that
involved in all of this is an un
learning.
We've all rolled
and
some people call it rape culture, in the
book, we call it
culture
and create a larger umbrella because consent is
(06:43):
about so much more than sex.
We've all grown up learning the wrong thing
for media through socialization.
And
we need to have compassion for ourselves and
each other around that.
And if I leave with 1 message, I
would say, let's bring that compassion piece
into this word.
(07:04):
Because
this just triggering for people. When people teach
this work, and when people
learn this work,
They remember things that were done to them.
They remember things that they did to other
people, all kinds of stuff comes up.
We need to have compassion because none of
us knew this before, and we shouldn't act
(07:24):
like they should just
automatically know it. There are so many reasons
why
young people and people general
might be confused about consent.
Beyond past trauma,
we're inundated with messages in the media
that are conflicting and confusing.
(07:46):
You know, in popular movies and shows
behaviors such as stocking is shown as romantic,
1 of the tropes that I really can't
stand that just keeps carrying on and on
is this idea that when people are going
to fall love,
if... When they first meet each other, they
have to hate each other first, and then
(08:07):
they fall love, which has confused generations, I
think, about how this actually works.
And
you know, and then, of course, there's born
which has become more and more. Violent enforcement
it over the years and also more accessible
the people.
And
so there's a lot of very confusing messages
(08:28):
that they're getting.
And then if we're coming to them and
I'm saying, it's really simple.
Either they say yes or no, and
you just need to.
Listen,
then we're
we're
you know, that's again, that's shaming it's
it's making... If they have questions if they're
confused, and now we're just making them feel
(08:50):
badly about that.
And they will have questions, and maybe go
will be confused.
Depending on where you are,
even just the laws can be confusing,
in Canada here, if you're a
a young team, there's a chart to show
who you can and can't go out with,
depending on your age, you know, a couple
of years about couple your gloves,
(09:12):
and it changes.
So it's not simple.
Not even simple.
You know, And then there are questions of
sobriety,
the people have to be Percent sober, you
know, teams have have questions around nets, but
we need to respect to understand
that
they are dealing with lower nuance than just
(09:35):
Yes or no. And
what we talk about in the book, we
talk about moving away from a perm model
of consent? This whole idea that 1 person
asks the businesses yes or no.
And moving towards a collaborative
idea consent.
Where
we wanna play together. Every I wanna have
(09:56):
things that are more fun for them. We
put things on the table. We take things
off the table, we decide what is the
best things of both of us.
We are still stuck in this concept that
is really rooted in
19 fifties kind kinda the heterosexual
paradigm where the guy asks
(10:16):
the woman is the 1 who says yes
or no.
But she doesn't ask for what she wants.
Like,
this is so outdated. It's not that's not
real consent. Real consent happens when everyone can
ask the local alone.
Everyone who say yes or no,
because that's another thing in that
where,
(10:38):
you know,
the
men and boys feeling like they can't say
no.
Being pulled that there's something wrong with them
it. They say no, there's been all week
sex.
There so many myths built into this paradigm.
And we need to get past it, and
we're still not passive it. I taught a
agreed 5 teacher
(10:59):
last year, and she asked her kids
her students, you know,
can a girl ask a guy out, and
the guys were like, yeah. Sure. Anytime, and
the girls were rolling like. No way. No.
We would never do that, then they're gonna
think less of us, or they're gonna think
we're thirsty and can't do that. Where it
(11:19):
would be weird and the guys who were
like, oh no.
But this is still
the idea that's being
sent out through the media, through society.
Girls are asking for what they want is
bad.
Girls wanting anything is that,
I, you know, guys are supposed to know
what they're doing. No matter if they've had
(11:41):
no experience. They're is to take the lead
and direct what's happening.
If a girl knows more, she's supposed to
hide that because
you're not supposed to no war.
There's all these old ideas that are still
being propagated
and
You know, when you look at all the
factors that go into making consent complex.
(12:03):
It feels daunting.
But when we do these exercises, it's actually
really fun. They laugh. They have a good
time, and they learn these skills.
And a lot of times some have these
aha moments of, like, oh, 0, yeah. Okay.
It is okay now see what I want.
And that's really beautiful. I sometimes say, you
(12:24):
know,
fighting fighting rape culture is hard, but creating
different culture is actually fun.
I'm I'm glad that you said a little
bit ago that we recognize
Warren has made an impact regarding
consent. And and I know that Heather Car
recently
wrote a piece. I think it was in
(12:46):
April mere york times about
some of the
imagery that yeah, other people are seeing,
and it's increasing or violent acts. So thanks
for free that off. That that is 1
of the realities of what kids are exposed
to, and we really need to go over,
you know, consent
for
(13:06):
sexual
sexual activity as well as other things.
So if I can ask you some very
concrete questions of, Like, what are your top
3
recommendations for
health educators. What do you recommend they do?
Okay. So first of all,
try
to learn as much as you can about
(13:27):
being trauma informed and bring that into your
inc sessions,
and should always have the option to leave
if they need to or put their head
and limit a desk there should be school
counselors available in case capabilities
1.
People may be triggered. If you do do
these exercises, I always make it optional,
(13:49):
but I really encourage them, you know, these
are fun and the more you do it,
the more you'll get out of it.
So that's 1 thing.
The second thing is
really
focus on
that things are skills that we can learn
(14:09):
that we can practice and that they need
to be practiced.
And
the I teach people
to thank other people when they say no.
And so it starts out with really simple
exercises where they asked for a hug and
they say no.
And then
we talk about how... Even though I told
them to say no,
(14:30):
it was hard and they laughed and they
made a joke out a bit, and we
go over the reasons why it's difficult to
say no. Because
understanding the underlying
problems is where the
need for the stove becomes obvious and
you move into it. So we talk about
(14:50):
why it's hard to say no. And they
can come up with a lot of reasons.
We don't wanna let people down. We don't
wanna hurt people's feelings.
We don't
want people to likeness us,
etcetera.
Now I get them just do it again
and then say thank you.
And then we talk about how that felt.
And
I asked them how. And a lot of
(15:10):
times they'll say it's weird. It's awkward.
To thank someone when they say no.
But then we to sit, They get up,
they walk around and they practice saying no,
and thank you. In ways that feel comfortable
to them. Like, oh, that's cool. Oh, thanks
for letting me know what you want or
don't or you know, hey, I... Thanks for
letting me know what your boundaries are.
Whatever it is, a way that feels comfortable
(15:31):
for them, and by the end of the
workshop, it's not weird anymore, and they're just
doing it.
And it really shifts things.
When you feel like your nose is not
only gonna be heard, but
but appreciate it.
That really shifts something inside. And now I
think you're really gonna notice when that doesn't
happen.
(15:52):
So that's
the main skill
I I really focus on is hearing no
graciously
recognizing, no. We have another exercise
where
they
have to say no to the things they'd
say yes to, and they have to say
yes to things they wanna say no to.
(16:12):
And then, of course, they're making all these
faces and doing these things. I don't talk
about what it looks like when you're not
enthusiastic,
and how to recognize that.
Also very important getting them to check in
with themselves and notice how they're feeling. And
I used the word notice on purpose.
That
is because we can
(16:34):
always change our minds, and it's normal and
to change our minds. Things our feelings are
always changing.
So
it's important to notice
what we're feeling in this moment and if
it's changing,
a lot of us can get into trouble
that way by not noticing that our feeling
they're changing as something progresses.
(16:56):
I talk to them about the difference between
liking and wanting something.
You might like Sushi, but that doesn't mean
you want Sushi right now.
So great to know what you like, but
notice what you're wanting right now,
and we have exercises for checking animal cells.
So you said
earlier that the first thing that a teacher
should do is to recognize
(17:18):
what trauma informed education is about because they
send me t.
So how do you make sure that you
set up an environment that if someone is
feeling triggered? They're okay.
Right.
I mean,
you can never guarantee
that
everyone's gonna be a hundred percent okay.
(17:39):
This is a safer environment, though for them
to be triggered and have resources available to
them.
So
you just make sure they know, but there's
somewhere for them to go if they need
to talk to someone.
Often during or after these workshops,
kids will go and talk to the school
counselor and disclose the abuse
(18:00):
that happens.
And then we just need to have that
that up and in place.
Just by saying, you know, this brings this
topic brings up stuff for people.
And it's okay to have feelings.
Then if the feelings we become too much,
You know, it's okay in the room, go
to wash and get a do better okay
(18:21):
to put your head down on the desk.
And it's okay to sit out and exercise
and watch, but I just wanna encourage you.
The more you do the more you'll get
out of it. III
appreciate that you said, you know, per set
up a same environment. It'll be a safer
environment.
Because some people, it seems like they want
to not have people
(18:42):
reflect a note this happened.
And my professional
philosophy has always been. You know, if a
child can get health sooner,
they can be healthy soon.
Like, yeah, It might be triggering. And I
used to work with elementary school children in
my first job I had is a school
mountain educator and I did a program that
(19:03):
dealt with
was with puppets, it was the babe program
at the time with these puppets and stuff.
And 1 of the lessons talked about a
program touch.
And when I did that lesson with children,
it was very exhausting because it is so
emotional and so many children react like, all
of that stuff. Right? And
(19:23):
and then there is a live disclosure
again.
I want these children to get health as
soon as possible and to recognize there are
safe people who can go to. So let's
start the healing process sooner.
Exactly. And you know, you brought up something
that I think it's important
The big part of being able to hold
a trauma inform space is to work through
(19:45):
our own trauma.
And
and recognize our own trauma responses,
understand how we respond and how we feel
when things come up for us
and
each prepared for that and understand that we
may need to take a breath
or leave the room.
It's possible. So... Or, you know, hopefully them
(20:07):
get to a place where you aren't gonna
be triggered like that before your teaching is
myself.
But also the more for refill this alone.
This brings up stuff for people. It's bring...
And it's very hard
to your children disclose of abuse
it's
hard to
you know, and I have,
(20:28):
I'm not sure if I have listed on
my website, but it's part of my force
is the best practice for,
you know,
hearing disclosure for,
receiving disclosure.
And,
you know,
a big part of that is not
projecting any of your stuff
into him. Just being able to as some
(20:49):
see and eat calm and steady.
Yeah.
That's again. Erica, thank you so much for
bringing up that you have a website. I
just pulled it up on the screen. So
those people that are watching, the school health
educators podcast on the Youtube channel? They can
see it.
Can you tell us a little bit about
your site? Because there's a bunch of resources
(21:12):
here?
Now. That's the resources page.
You
go to the,
homepage. It says more about,
what I'm doing right now.
You do have a,
reader guide for educators.
And,
On the about page, you can seek them
of my certified facilitator.
(21:33):
So I have been teaching people online
in Europe in Africa, in
North America,
how to lead these exercises, how to do
this workshop,
and,
these are just some of the people have
been certified. I'm still getting more up on
the site.
And
(21:55):
and then,
in the trainings. It shows the different kind
of trainings that I do. So I do
pro day presentations. I do train the trainers
for educators.
And I
do the workshop in schools. I can come
and do the workshops in in schools.
So
yeah. And I also have
(22:16):
consent lesson plans on teachers pay teachers and
on learn worlds.
I love working with people. I love collaborating
with people. If you have an idea for
us to collaborate
together,
on a project,
don't feel shy to reach out. I love
doing that. Oh, I have a blog.
There's some
(22:36):
podcast, the podcast interviews and,
articles in there as well.
Wonderful.
So since we're filming to the end of
our recording today, do you have any last
comments
for our listeners.
Okay. So 1 of the things that students
and people in general tell me
(22:57):
that The most important thing that they've heard
in the workshop is when I talk about
the freeze response.
Most of us grew up learning about fight
and flight
but it's actually fight flight freeze and fun.
And I don't know enough about fun, but
freeze
is actually the most common response to sexual
sexual assault. And it's the most common response
(23:18):
for children as well.
And because the free response isn't very well
understood, it leads to a lot of victim
blaming and shape shaming, even by victims themselves.
And when we can teach people about the
freezer response,
we can give them a lot of relief
thinner at.
So
it's so important to me, just spread the
(23:39):
word and I hope you do too
about
that the freeze response is an autonomic response,
it happens in less than 15 milliseconds. It's
out of our conscious control. It's what the
body has decided is our best survival strategy.
And 1 myth about sexual assault is that
it's allowed thing where just fighting and yelling.
(23:59):
In fact, it's generally very quiet with a
not a lot of movement because the victim
is having freeze response.
Then
people
you know, afterwards, like, why didn't I say
back, why didn't I say no. I know
for myself,
I didn't when I didn't understand about the
3 response, I blame to myself and thought
I must just be a win. I must
(24:21):
not have what it takes to like that.
When I learned about the freezer response, I
was like, this explains things because it's so
weird. Feel like you can do anything.
So... And you can't. Your body has shut
you down.
So,
we still don't have enough understanding of the
previous response in society,
(24:42):
police.
Courts.
There's... So we need to spread the word,
so people understand that this is the most
common response to sexual assault and
if someone tells you that they didn't say
no, They didn't fight back rather than questioning
them why tell them, they probably had free
(25:02):
response.
Right.
And that it wasn't called. Their body was
doing what it needed to ding to survive.
That such a great light to free up
because that bite or or flight. We heard
that some for so many years in psychology
and all. Yeah. We do have this,
(25:23):
frozen.
Yeah, we're frozen.
So much prefer bringing that it. Yeah.
And if somebody wants to get into contact
with you, how can they do?
Yeah. I have all my
that information on my website, creating consent culture
dot com.
I also have a Facebook page and in
1 ans instagram,
I'm on the linkedin,
(25:46):
both as Erica gust dot, and that's creating
it approach.
2 c's do retail. I'd love to hear
you. I'd love to sort queue and
yeah.
Thank you so much for you. I sharing
you wisdom.
And I I would like to say keep
up the good work,
sex educators you are
heroes,
(26:06):
and it's friends. And
everyone of as a hero and thought, thank
you for the repeating. Yeah. Going forward.
Yeah.
Well, thank you again so much for being
here and to our listeners, I will have
links for Erica
information and for how to get contact
with Erica, it'll be on today's subscription.
(26:28):
So I thank you so much for listening
in. And please remember to follow this podcast
on your favorite podcast but form and give
us some 5 star ratings that'd been wonderful.
Also, please check out the school health educators
websites,
that's school health educators dot org.
And member, you make a difference.
You matter. Thank you for doing what you're
(26:49):
doing and stay well folks.
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