November 14, 2024 • 37 mins
In our last episode of season one of the School on A Mission podcast, Gina and Andrew discuss the often-overlooked value of failure in education, exploring how embracing setbacks can foster resilience and innovation. Through personal stories, they highlight the importance of taking risks and rethinking traditional views of success. Together, they champion a classroom culture that sees failure as an essential part of growth, where students feel safe to experiment, learn from mistakes, and develop critical thinking skills. They discuss strategies for fostering resilience, from modeling vulnerability by sharing personal setbacks to creating collaborative, supportive environments that encourage a fail-forward mindset. This episode calls on educators and parents alike to nurture a learning culture that values the journey over the destination, empowering students to become confident, adaptive thinkers ready for the future.
Sources: ASCD, Hope Hero, Medium, Feedback Study and Failing Forward by John Maxwell
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back everyone .
My name is Gina Watts, andco-hosting with me today is the
wonderful Star Wars fan.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was wondering, like she's about to say something,
what does she say?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Andrew.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
McPeak so good to be with you, gina, and I do like
Star Wars, you do.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
If you believe that school should be more than just
essays and GPAs, if you believethat EQs are as important as IQs
, if you expect amazing thingsfrom the next generation, then,
friends, you are in the rightplace, because we believe that
too, and today.
If you believe that failing isjust the first step towards
success, then you are definitelygoing to love this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That you are.
Yeah, we are both believers infailure, and I'm sure many of
our listeners are too, but ifyou're not, we might convince
you by the end.
But before we get there, we'vegot to do our question of the
week, so this is a fun one.
What is the craziest thingyou've ever done on a dare from?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
someone else oh this question.
You know, I was thinking aboutit and honestly, I can't even
make it up.
I am a person that growing upplaying truth or dare I always
was like.
I'll tell the truth.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'll tell the truth You're an open book.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, I just never really did the dares, like I
don't know.
I am an open book, but I alsodon't know if maybe the people I
was with I just didn't trust onwhat kind of dare they were
going to give me, that's verytrue Is the dare too dangerous,
Because when I was growing up,my friends always called me the
mom.
You were the ones that was likeI don't know if we should do
(01:53):
this.
Yeah, I was like taking care ofpeople, you know, always like
that.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And you're still playing that role today.
I am.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I just can't help it, but I'm sure I am confident
that you have a wonderful storyto tell us.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I have definitely done some dares.
That would be a differencebetween you and I in this one.
But yeah, I remember birthdayparties where we were like, okay
, run down this hallway and yougot to jump over this couch.
Or I had a crazy group offriends run down this hallway
and you got to jump over thiscouch.
Or I had a crazy group offriends or one friend's birthday
party.
He had a pool and the backporch had an awning that went
kind of right up next to thepool, and so we were like, okay,
(02:33):
we're going to go up to thesecond floor, go out a window,
jump off the awning into thepool.
And of course we all did it andit was awesome.
But probably like the craziestthing I ever did on a dare was
go cliff jumping.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Cliff jumping, yeah Into what A lake.
Okay, yep, I wanted to makesure that our listeners knew
that there was something otherthan the hard earth.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I grew up in Nashville.
We have several lakes inNashville Percy Priest is one of
those and there is a spot, ifyou know where to go kind of off
the beaten path, where you canjump and it's like 25, 30 feet
somewhere in there.
Okay, it's long enough that youjump, thinking you're going to
hit the water, and you have amoment in the air to think I'm
(03:16):
still falling, and then you hitthe water.
That was the most memorablepart of that experience.
It's like I jump, I'm falling,I'm still falling and then I hit
the water.
So you should try it sometime.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I dare you to do that .
Speaker 1 (03:31):
No, I can't.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I can't do it Now the look on your face is like just
shut it down.
We're not doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Can't do it, Can't do it.
I love these stories though.
Moving from funny dares tosomething like more serious is
really how we handle failure.
Embracing failure and learningto fail forward is critical,
especially in education.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
It's something we see as essential for growth and
resilience.
I just wonder how much space wemake for it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, not only for us , but also for our students,
right?
So today we're diving into theconcept of what we call failing
forward.
You might've heard that inother places, but it's really
about how schools can create anenvironment where students and
teachers feel free to take risks, to innovate and to not be
(04:21):
afraid of failing, because werecognize failure can be a good
thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And it's such a hard thing to talk about.
I think at times, you know,I've had to even make sure that
I'm aware of how I talk about itto people, because I tend to be
when I'm thinking about ideas,I'm like a risk taker and I'm
excited about change, but that'snot how everybody feels about
it.
You know, failing is hard.
It's a hard thing to talk about.
You know.
Failing is hard.
It's a hard thing to talk about, you know.
We have all failed, but most ofthe time just kind of like we
(04:48):
duck our heads and pretend itnever happened and hoping like
did anybody just see me trip?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, in fact, that's the very first thing we do
after we trip is we get up andthen we look around.
Yeah Right, I want to make surenobody saw me.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Or we get up and dance, because I tend to fall in
public, I don't know if we getup and dance, okay, gina.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gina gets up and dances.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I mean, at least I'll entertain people while I fall.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Oh, there's so many good things we have left to do
together, Gina, Really.
But when we're talking aboutfailure, it's the belief that
the idea here is that failureisn't a setback.
Instead failure is anopportunity, right, it's an
opportunity for growth.
It's seeing the red marks lefton my test right as stepping
stones to success, Like I justlearned how to not do that you
(05:40):
know, and now I'm going to bebetter next time.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Exactly.
It's like the saying goes fallseven times, stand up eight.
By embracing this mindset, wecan foster a culture of
resilience and continuousimprovement in our schools.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, and this isn't a new idea either.
It's not like you and I arecoming up with this on this
podcast.
Historically, some of thegreatest advancements in history
came after repeated failures.
Think of Thomas Edison right?
He famously said he had figuredout a thousand ways not to make
a light bulb which is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Just one thousand.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, and so he considered all of those learning
experiences right.
So if we're looking at our kids, who are going to be creatives,
they're going to beentrepreneurs, they're going to
come up with new ideas in thesame vein as Thomas Edison
they're going to have to fail.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Absolutely.
You know, in education the failforward approach is all about
preparing students for anunpredictable future.
Our friend, and probably he'sgrowing to be yours, john
Maxwell, has popularized thisconcept in his book Failing
Forward.
John emphasizes viewing failureas a growth opportunity.
He's for real.
(06:47):
He's like the Yoda of embracingfailure Wise and endlessly
quotable.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Maxwell Yoda.
I like that.
So, speaking of practicalwisdom, let's talk about how we
can implement some of these failforward strategies.
In all that we do, certainly,but especially in the classroom.
So I know step one Gina, you'regoing to kind of walk us
through this has to be aboutcreating safe environments for
risk taking.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
For sure.
So redefining failure is key.
If students see it as alearning experience rather than
a disaster, they're more likelyto take risks and innovate
Rather than a disaster.
They're more likely to takerisks and innovate.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
To quote Yoda.
I mean John.
He says sometimes you win,sometimes you learn.
Actually, hang on, wait, I'mcalling hype button on that.
You got to say that John quoteagain Sometimes you win and
sometimes you learn.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I love that and if you really like it, he actually
wrote a song For real.
It's on any of your streamingservices and it's just called
Sometimes you Win, sometimes youLearn.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Now he's not actually singing on the song.
He's not actually singing, buthe wrote it, which we should be
thankful for.
He's not the world's greatestsinger.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
No, or dancer, but it's fine.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
We love him still, but he found somebody who's
great at singing.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, and he wrote a great song and he wrote a great
song but really, you know, lifeis about failing forward and
it's about understanding thatyou learn in the process.
It's rare that we get thingsright the first time.
Yeah, and we need to providespace for our students to know
it's okay to fail.
Think of it like a scienceexperiment.
Sometimes it blows up, but youalways learn something that's
(08:28):
safe for young people to fail.
Also, think about not just likea physical space, but like how
do you respond to failure If youhave anxiety about it, if you
are like responding with, youknow, nervousness or tension.
Even if you don't say the words, it comes off to the student
(08:49):
and they don't feel safe in turnto be able to experiment or to
explore and learn.
So we're going to talk aboutsome practical steps that
educators can take.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Awesome.
So let's get to the nittygritty.
You got a few ideas for us.
Yeah, a lot of them are superpractical.
So what's first?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So, first, educators can redefine failure in the
classroom.
Start by openly discussing thevalue of mistakes and how they
lead into learning.
You know, use language thatframes errors as a part of the
learning process.
For example, instead of sayingyou failed, say well, what can
we learn from this, and honestly, I think most teachers, most
educators, aren't going to saylike, oh, you failed, unless you
(09:29):
want to be a little sarcasticfor a moment.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Because you always have this, but we're never
sarcastic here, ever ever.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
But.
But the reality is is like Ijust mentioned, the way that you
even say well, what can welearn from this If your posture
isn't genuine, kids sniff.
I always tell people, kidssniff out a phony in a minute.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Today more than ever, yeah, so they need to know that
.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Oh, I can learn from this and that you're not just
saying what you think you shouldsay.
Yeah, so you have to actuallybelieve it yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It's so good, it's so good.
Shifting our language andreally, ultimately, our
expectations behind our language, can totally change the
atmosphere of that classroom.
So, all right, what's the nextone?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Encourage experimentation, you know.
Create assignments that allowfor creative problem solving
where the process is valued asmuch as the final product.
You know, let students knowit's okay to try new approaches
and that their effort isappreciated even if their result
isn't perfect.
Now, if you think about, youknow I've shared at different
points about my background incareer development points about
(10:34):
my background and careerdevelopment Employers.
When I talk to employers, oneof the number one things that
they continuously are frustratedwith I mean this is probably
for like the last 10 to 15 yearsis the lack of resilience and
problem solving skills thatthese kids have made it all the
way through their entireeducational career, they arrived
for their first job and theydon't know how to keep going at
a problem until they solve it.
Yep and honestly, we can helpwith that as educators.
(10:58):
We can help by creating thesesafe spaces and encouraging
experimentation in the room sothat the kids are building their
skills, they're honing theirskills.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And I think that's exactly the reason why right is
because when you think aboutwhat are kids going to need to
know to be successful, in theirfuture.
You have to recognize thatproblem solving is probably more
important than at any point inhistory up to this point, yeah.
Because it's not going to beabout what we know.
It's going to be about how wecan think critically about what
(11:27):
we know.
So what about the next one?
You've given us two really goodones.
Take us to number three.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So I mentioned resilience, and actually that's
one of them is teachingresilience, you know, by
emphasizing that abilities canbe developed through effort and
practice.
When I think about this oneright now, you know I'm thinking
about my five-year-old who'slearning how to tie his shoes.
So my husband and I decided tomove from, like you know, the
strap shoes or the slip-ons, totying shoes, and I was like what
(11:56):
did we do?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
You've given yourself a whole other thing you have to
deal with.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But honestly, it's every day.
He practices it at the sametime every day.
He has to do it every morningand I even said to my husband I
said, you know, we should gethim a pair of slip-ons, just
like you know shoes that he canjust throw on when we're quick.
He's like no, because then he'sgoing to only want to wear
those.
And I'm like, but we cancontrol that.
(12:23):
And he's like Gina, and then,sure enough, he overheard us
talking about it and he was likeyeah, mommy, I do want some
slip-ons because I like those,like he, mm-mm.
So my point is is that from afive-year-old teaching them how
to tie their shoes and notgetting frustrated when you need
to get out the door, but makingenough time to keep doing it
(12:44):
that teaches resilience just asmuch as having space for
experimentation in the classroomin a senior class.
Those are spaces where we canprovide constructive feedback
that focuses on the process andeffort rather than just the
outcome.
And along the way we need topraise the students for their
hard work and strategies, andnot just for their grades.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I love it.
Well, also, what I love so muchabout your example with your
son is you had to practiceresilience in order for him to
learn resilience because you hadto keep going and letting him
fight and struggle through thisthing.
Yeah, which is what the nextone is.
I think it is Modeling the way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Modeling.
You know, honestly speaking ofmy son, I have to give a shout
out to my husband because he'sthe one that's teaching him how
to diet.
You also need to know when it'snot your skill.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Okay, modeling failure.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
By sharing your own experiences with setbacks, you
know there's an appropriateamount of transparency that we
should have with students or, asadministrators, with our staff.
Sharing with people that youtoo have failed is really
important strategy.
(13:58):
So when teachers and schoolleaders talk about their
failures and what they learnfrom them, it shows the students
that failure is a natural partof the learning journey.
This transparency can be verypowerful, especially in a time
where we think we see and knowpeople's stories because of
social media and we see theglitz, we see the glamour and
(14:21):
I'm not talking about justfamous people, I'm talking about
us.
We post what we want people toknow.
The problem with that is peopledon't know everything that's
happened behind the scenes orover the years that allowed you
to get to that moment,absolutely.
And there is a amount oftransparency that's appropriate.
(14:43):
Yep, yeah, that's true, yougotta gauge it.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Don't tell them everything.
You don't need to know all thebusiness.
But you are exactly right, If astudent never sees a teacher
walk through that process andI've actually visited schools
and been in classrooms beforewhen I've actually seen a
teacher go oh, Ms Smith justmade a mistake.
Somebody tell me what mistakedid I just make?
On the board and it's such apowerful because she's doing two
(15:07):
things at once when she doesthat.
One, giving them a chance tothink critically, but two,
modeling.
It's okay to make a mistake, togo hit yourself on the head
like can't believe I did thatand then move on.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I love that modeling thing To what you just said,
though, too, even the exampleyou gave.
She also didn't call herselfnames or treat herself with
disrespect, she just said oh, Imade a mistake.
Can somebody tell me what itwas?
So she was ready to receivefeedback.
Oh, we could stop right thereand do a whole lesson on that
quick example off the top ofyour head.
That was good.
(15:43):
That was good, but yeah, it'sabout the way.
It's about the way that wemodel the failure.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, all right, take us to the next one.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
All right.
So this crucial professionaldevelopment for teachers on
adopting a fail forward mindsetis a great start.
This can include training oninnovative teaching methods and
how to handle setbacks.
Productively Empowered teacherswill create a ripple effect in
their classroom.
Some of you might be like Ginathere is not a professional
development training called failforward, but there are a lot of
(16:13):
people and a lot of resourcesthat you can access that can
help you create strategies orhave conversations about failure
.
And it might seem like it's waytoo simple to put financial
investment into.
But, friends, I'm telling you,it's a culture shifting thing,
it's a mindset shifting thing.
(16:33):
So you have to resource that inorder for it to be sticky.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Absolutely so.
I mean, a great place to startis maybe there's somebody that
you want to talk to aboutfailure.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Send them this podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Go.
Hey, listen to this, I want totalk about it later.
Another way we've alreadymentioned the John Maxwell book
Failing Forward.
Pick up a copy of that andstart some conversations.
It can be really easy to doprofessional development in that
way.
Okay, take us on to one more.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Collaborative learning.
I think it's something that hasbeen, you know, like a catchy
or trendy phrase for a number ofyears.
But encouraging it andexecuting it is another thing.
So group projects andproblem-solving activities that
allow students to learn fromeach other's mistakes and
successes, it gives space forthere to be a community effort.
(17:20):
You know, when students worktogether, they see failure as a
shared learning experience, nota blaming experience or a you
know like.
Well so, and so, like everybodylistening, did you like group
projects, yes or no?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I believe everybody says no right, no Universal
answer.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
And if you were an overachiever, you probably were
like I will do everything yeahand I will do everything.
So you just like super servebecause you want to make sure
the grade's a good grade and agood outcome right.
The solution to the groupproject problem is to just turn
it back into a solo project andso this collaborative learning
environment and having standardsfrom the beginning so I think,
(18:01):
like having structure standards,expectation, so that there's
group norms, there's a good workdone together to get them ready
to do it but there's a truecollaborative experience can be
a game changer.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Love it, love it, and what I love so much about that,
too, is that it's going tocreate opportunities not only
for students to learn to callone another out on mistakes in a
really healthy, solidcommunication way.
But also learn to receivefeedback from other people.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Say it.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Somebody goes hey, I don't think you did that part
right to go oh my gosh, you'reso right.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
Like I know I'm saying that andit sounds so simple, but like
that's a skill.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
No, because I was sitting here thinking like
that's another thing employerscomplain about right now and are
frustrated with is that peopleI guess they call it, like you
know being too sensitive?
I don't think it's toosensitive.
I think that they were nevertrained or don't have the skill
set to receive feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And that receiving feedback, even if it's hard
critique, it doesn't mean thatyou are less than Correct or
that or that everything you'redoing is wrong At all.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, at all yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
At all.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
It all points back to that resilience that resilience
factor, so good, okay, well,you got one more for us, and
even if you got all that otherstuff, correct?
That's only really going tohelp you in the school building
right.
And so your last one is aboutgetting beyond the school
building.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Community engagement is vital.
You know, organizing events andmeetings to discuss school
initiatives and gather feedbackis really important.
It's important for parents andthe community to be involved.
They can support the failforward approach at home, making
the educational experience morecohesive.
And also it's a shared languagething.
In various episodes of ourpodcast I'm sure we'll talk
(19:45):
about how important it is tohave shared language, how
important it is to not only havethe administrator have a
language and share that with theteachers, but the teachers to
have that experience and shareit with the students and
students to share it with theirparents.
And if everybody imagine ifeverybody has that shared
language and that sharedunderstanding of even just one
concept like failing forward,that creates community
(20:07):
transformation.
It absolutely does.
It changes how everybody canfunction in supporting one
another, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And I think, in the same way that this kind of
fail-forward approach might beforeign to a lot of teachers,
it's definitely going to beforeign to a lot of parents.
It's one of the biggestchallenges in the parenting
world right now is parents whosee their kids struggling and
think the solution is for my kidto not struggle anymore.
And therefore I should just stepin and solve it Right, whether
(20:36):
I do that homework project oryou know, I've talked to
teachers who go I get I the kidswheel their science projects in
the door and I'm like parentdid that Parent?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
did that.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Parent did that.
It's so very obvious becausethey're a third grader.
Of course they can't buildtheir own volcano or submarine
or whatever it is, and I think alot of parents think that
that's the right approach.
So if the school in engagingthose parents, and the other
community members can make thatclear it makes a massive
difference and it has long-termbenefits.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
It does.
You know, embracing afail-forward approach enhances
student engagement and improvesteacher satisfaction.
Believe it or not, students whofeel safe taking risks are more
engaged and more motivated.
It leads to them having betteracademic performance.
And teachers who are insupportive environments.
They innovate more, they knowthey have permission to fail,
(21:28):
and it reduces their burnout andimproves retention.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Plus, it seems like schools that embrace failure are
better able to adapt whenchanges come along right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Exactly, schools that view failure as part of the
process are more innovative and,honestly, they're more
resilient, they're betterequipped to handle changing
demands, foster a culture ofcontinuous improvement, like, I
wonder you know that would be agreat research is to see what
was the risk taking or problemsolving quotient or failing
(22:01):
forward quotient of schoolsbefore COVID, before the
pandemic, and looking at theones that, how they behaved and
what they did, and the resultsthat they saw, yeah.
Versus ones that didn't reallyhave that permission to take
risks or that problem-solvingcommunity environment.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, that would just .
Yeah, that would be.
I think a lot of schoolsprobably lost the appetite for
risk in the wake of COVID, forsure.
So just to sum it all up herein a nutshell, it seems like
embracing failure, or at leastrecognizing it's a part of
education, leads to a brighterfuture for literally everyone
involved, right?
So by redefining failure,encouraging risk-taking,
(22:41):
fostering growth mindsets,building supportive school
cultures, we literally can turnsetbacks into valuable learning
experiences for students.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I agree.
I agree, andrew, and you knowwe can continue to journey
toward innovation and excellencein education, but let's
celebrate the power of failure.
You know, I would love even ifthere were like weeks dedicated
to celebrating the failures thatwe took you know, together we
can create a culture ofresilience, creativity and
(23:11):
continuous improvement.
So here's to failing forwardalong the way.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Absolutely Cheers to that.
This is so solid, so practical,but it did just remind me of a
story, really, actually, it'ssome research that we came
across a couple years ago,myself and Tim, our founder,
about how we can help studentshandle their failure better.
(23:38):
So some researchers and I'lljust tell this really quick
researchers from Stanford, yale,columbia and other places it
was a whole research team gottogether.
I think it was back in 2014, soa while back, but the stuff
they learned is just as valuabletoday as it was back then
(24:00):
gathered high school studentsand the goal of the study was to
find out what kind of feedbackis most helpful when students
have underperformed on anassignment.
So, that's a fancy way of sayingthey failed right, they didn't
get 100% and what they weretrying to figure out is what
could you say to help a student,kind of bounce back from that
negative experience that theyhad or the failure that they
experienced.
So they had middle school, highschool teachers assign an essay
(24:23):
writing assignment to theirstudents.
So the students turned theassignment in the assignments.
The essays were then graded sothey marked them up crazy with
red lines and the experiment wasactually where they would
change what they wrote at thetop of the paper.
So I don't know if you remember, when you get an assignment
back, your teacher says you know?
(24:43):
it was a really good idea, butyou need to work on your
spelling or whatever.
So they started.
They literally experimentedwith dozens of phrases that they
hypothesized this might help,and what they did is they told
the students who got thisassignment back it is totally up
to you, completely voluntary,but if you would like to, you
can edit your paper based on thefeedback you got and turn it
(25:05):
back in.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So completely voluntary, and they wanted to
see could we find a phrase orphrases that would make students
more on their own decide?
To voluntarily make this changeon their own, decide to
voluntarily, you know, make thischange.
So, to their surprise, theresearchers discovered that
there was one particular phrasethat was used this type of
teacher feedback that improvedstudent effort and performance
(25:31):
so much that they actually, inthe study, used the word magical
to describe it, which, as youmight imagine, is not a word you
commonly find in scientificstudy reports, but they
literally use the word magical.
Students who received thisfeedback, this phrase on their
paper, chose to revise theirpapers far more often than
(25:51):
students who did not.
In fact, in the study, theyfound a massive difference, not
only in the type of student, butalso in the racial divide,
which is crazy.
They found that about, if theyuse this phrase, about 40% more
white students change theirpaper voluntarily, but among
black students it was 320%.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
This one phrase.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So what was the phrase?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Everybody's probably wondering.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It is this.
I'm giving you these commentsbecause I have very high
expectations and I know that youcan reach them.
That's it, I'm giving you thesecomments because I have very
high expectations and I knowthat you can reach them.
According to the research,students who received this
sentence not only performedbetter immediately afterwards,
but they kept following them fora year and those students
(26:41):
performed better on futureassignments too Wow.
Isn't that crazy.
That's great, and it's such areminder to me of what we've
been talking about all alongright, A student fails and the
difference between them bouncingback with success and them not
bouncing back at all is how wecommunicate the spirit that
we're bringing to our feedbackto students.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's truly just being believed in.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yes, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Because when I hear that phrase, I'm like, oh, you
believe in me.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I hear that first.
Then I hear oh, I need to dosome more work.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But I hear you believe in me first.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
That's the amazing part about high expectations,
isn't it?
High expectations communicate.
I believe you, but I'm also notgoing to let you skate by Yep
yep.
And I think a lot of times wecommunicate belief.
I call it cotton candyleadership sometimes.
Like it tastes really good atfirst and then you feel sick to
your stomach later.
It's.
I believe in you.
You're amazing, but we don'toften hold kids to high
(27:34):
expectations.
And I think that's the recipewith kids who are experiencing
failure is hey, you've got this.
But just because I believeyou've got this doesn't mean I'm
going to let you skate on this.
We need to try again.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So it's not failure, but it's how we lead through the
failure that really will makeall the difference.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Absolutely, I'd say.
Today's whole conversation insum is keep failing forward and
stay curious everyone.
Gina, you've taught us a lottoday, so much in fact.
In fact, I've got TMI right now.
I've got too much information.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So I think it's time for a DMI.
Andrew, do you want to kick usoff with our Don't Miss it today
?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, Well, what I was thinking about honestly was
just the advice you gave us, andthen the mission of this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
We call it.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
School on a Mission right.
And what we're trying toaccomplish.
And to me, the greatestconnection there was about what
you said about encouragingexperimentation.
There was about what you saidabout encouraging
experimentation.
If we're looking at schools asthe place where students, where
communities even, are going toexperience amazing change right,
(28:49):
it's more than just reading,writing and arithmetic Then
we're going to have to be thekinds of leaders who are not
afraid of experiments, who, whenthat really wild, innovative
teacher in your building rightnow and you know exactly who I'm
talking about you're thinkingof them right now when they come
to you and go hey, I just hadthis cool idea on the way to
work today that you go, you knowwhat?
(29:11):
Okay, we're going to try it.
Your other 12 ideas didn't work, but we're going to try the
13th one.
Or when a group of studentscomes to you and has a really
big idea and you're thinkingthese 15-year-olds have no idea
how hard what they just said isactually going to be, that we
don't let those things becomeexcuses, and that we're
(29:31):
encouraging, inside of ourbuilding, experimentation,
because we know that thedifference between us getting to
where we want to go and usstaying stagnant where we are is
having a building full ofpeople who are not afraid of
failure, who are excited abouttrying new things, who are
pushing boundaries and coming upwith ideas.
That's the kind of leadershipwe need right now.
So I love that idea of allowingfor experimentation.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That's good.
What about you?
That's good.
You know the research that younoted.
You know specifically thecomment which was I'm giving you
these comments because I havevery high expectations and I
know that you can reach them.
I think it's an example thatpoints back to one of the first
few things I said about.
It's not just the physicalenvironment, it's not just the
(30:16):
things we say, it's also the howwe say it.
And it's how we monitor andmanage ourselves in the
environment.
If you're somebody who is verydriven, you're a striver.
I'm a former striver, or I'mrecovering, recovering striver,
or I'm currently in process of astriver.
But you know, if you're thatperson one, I see you and I
(30:38):
recognize you as I look in themirror that energy still comes
off, even when you try yourhardest not to, and so we have
to do our own.
You know development asresilient leaders who aren't
afraid of failure, in order toalso create space for young
people to feel safe when itcomes to that.
(30:59):
And so I think having like that, that comment is going to stick
with me for a while.
I mean, I've heard Tim share itbefore, but it is.
It's going to stick with me fora while because I want to make
sure that the thing that I'msaying, the expectation that I
hold, is more than just thewords and it's actually like a
lived truth and a philosophythat I'm creating safe space for
people to fail.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's good.
So good, man, this has been afun episode.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
It's been good I might listen to it.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I said it.
Now I'm going to listen to it.
This is going to be great.
Well, thank you so much, gina,for all the wisdom that you've
shared with us.
Of course, we want to thankeverybody listening to this
episode of School on a Mission.
This podcast is only fun to makebecause we believe so much in
you guys and what you're doing.
So, before you hit skip ontoyour next podcast, we want to
(31:47):
challenge you.
Grab a pen, notebook, stickynote, smartphone, maybe even the
back of your hand.
Whatever you've got, we wantyou to write down one action you
are going to take this week.
Maybe it's something you'regoing to do, something you're
going to investigate further,something you're going to go
read about, maybe a person youwant to meet with in your school
building or your community.
(32:08):
Whatever it is, write it down.
Got it Perfect?
Now we want you to shoot us aDM on social media and we want
you to tell us what action areyou taking.
We'd love to help hold youaccountable.
We want you to tell us whataction are you taking.
We'd love to help hold youaccountable.
We can't wait to see all theamazing things that you're up to
, and until next time, folksstay curious, stay bold and keep
leading your school on amission.
(32:32):
The School on a Mission podcastis produced by Growing Leaders,
a Maxwell Leadership Company.
You can find out more aboutGrowing Leaders at
growingleaderscom.
Growingleaders atgrowingleaderscom.
We'd like to thank especiallyASCD Hope Hero, megan Van
Voorhees, the AmericanPsychological Association and,
of course, john Maxwell for theleadership and insights that
contributed to today'sconversation.
This podcast was produced byAngelica Oliver.
(32:53):
To find out more about theSchool on a Mission podcast,
head over toschoolonamissionpodcastcom.
Welcome back everyone .
My name is Gina Watts, andco-hosting with me today is the
wonderful Star Wars fan.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was wondering, like she's about to say something,
what does she say?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Andrew.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
McPeak so good to be with you, gina, and I do like
Star Wars, you do.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
If you believe that school should be more than just
essays and GPAs, if you believethat EQs are as important as IQs
, if you expect amazing thingsfrom the next generation, then,
friends, you are in the rightplace, because we believe that
too, and today.
If you believe that failing isjust the first step towards
success, then you are definitelygoing to love this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That you are.
Yeah, we are both believers infailure, and I'm sure many of
our listeners are too, but ifyou're not, we might convince
you by the end.
But before we get there, we'vegot to do our question of the
week, so this is a fun one.
What is the craziest thingyou've ever done on a dare from?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
someone else oh this question.
You know, I was thinking aboutit and honestly, I can't even
make it up.
I am a person that growing upplaying truth or dare I always
was like.
I'll tell the truth.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'll tell the truth You're an open book.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, I just never really did the dares, like I
don't know.
I am an open book, but I alsodon't know if maybe the people I
was with I just didn't trust onwhat kind of dare they were
going to give me, that's verytrue Is the dare too dangerous,
Because when I was growing up,my friends always called me the
mom.
You were the ones that was likeI don't know if we should do
(01:53):
this.
Yeah, I was like taking care ofpeople, you know, always like
that.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And you're still playing that role today.
I am.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I just can't help it, but I'm sure I am confident
that you have a wonderful storyto tell us.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I have definitely done some dares.
That would be a differencebetween you and I in this one.
But yeah, I remember birthdayparties where we were like, okay
, run down this hallway and yougot to jump over this couch.
Or I had a crazy group offriends run down this hallway
and you got to jump over thiscouch.
Or I had a crazy group offriends or one friend's birthday
party.
He had a pool and the backporch had an awning that went
kind of right up next to thepool, and so we were like, okay,
(02:33):
we're going to go up to thesecond floor, go out a window,
jump off the awning into thepool.
And of course we all did it andit was awesome.
But probably like the craziestthing I ever did on a dare was
go cliff jumping.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Cliff jumping, yeah Into what A lake.
Okay, yep, I wanted to makesure that our listeners knew
that there was something otherthan the hard earth.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I grew up in Nashville.
We have several lakes inNashville Percy Priest is one of
those and there is a spot, ifyou know where to go kind of off
the beaten path, where you canjump and it's like 25, 30 feet
somewhere in there.
Okay, it's long enough that youjump, thinking you're going to
hit the water, and you have amoment in the air to think I'm
(03:16):
still falling, and then you hitthe water.
That was the most memorablepart of that experience.
It's like I jump, I'm falling,I'm still falling and then I hit
the water.
So you should try it sometime.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
No.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I dare you to do that .
Speaker 1 (03:31):
No, I can't.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I can't do it Now the look on your face is like just
shut it down.
We're not doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Can't do it, Can't do it.
I love these stories though.
Moving from funny dares tosomething like more serious is
really how we handle failure.
Embracing failure and learningto fail forward is critical,
especially in education.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
It's something we see as essential for growth and
resilience.
I just wonder how much space wemake for it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, not only for us , but also for our students,
right?
So today we're diving into theconcept of what we call failing
forward.
You might've heard that inother places, but it's really
about how schools can create anenvironment where students and
teachers feel free to take risks, to innovate and to not be
(04:21):
afraid of failing, because werecognize failure can be a good
thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And it's such a hard thing to talk about.
I think at times, you know,I've had to even make sure that
I'm aware of how I talk about itto people, because I tend to be
when I'm thinking about ideas,I'm like a risk taker and I'm
excited about change, but that'snot how everybody feels about
it.
You know, failing is hard.
It's a hard thing to talk about.
You know.
Failing is hard.
It's a hard thing to talk about, you know.
We have all failed, but most ofthe time just kind of like we
(04:48):
duck our heads and pretend itnever happened and hoping like
did anybody just see me trip?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, in fact, that's the very first thing we do
after we trip is we get up andthen we look around.
Yeah Right, I want to make surenobody saw me.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Or we get up and dance, because I tend to fall in
public, I don't know if we getup and dance, okay, gina.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gina gets up and dances.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I mean, at least I'll entertain people while I fall.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Oh, there's so many good things we have left to do
together, Gina, Really.
But when we're talking aboutfailure, it's the belief that
the idea here is that failureisn't a setback.
Instead failure is anopportunity, right, it's an
opportunity for growth.
It's seeing the red marks lefton my test right as stepping
stones to success, Like I justlearned how to not do that you
(05:40):
know, and now I'm going to bebetter next time.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Exactly.
It's like the saying goes fallseven times, stand up eight.
By embracing this mindset, wecan foster a culture of
resilience and continuousimprovement in our schools.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, and this isn't a new idea either.
It's not like you and I arecoming up with this on this
podcast.
Historically, some of thegreatest advancements in history
came after repeated failures.
Think of Thomas Edison right?
He famously said he had figuredout a thousand ways not to make
a light bulb which is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Just one thousand.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, and so he considered all of those learning
experiences right.
So if we're looking at our kids, who are going to be creatives,
they're going to beentrepreneurs, they're going to
come up with new ideas in thesame vein as Thomas Edison
they're going to have to fail.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Absolutely.
You know, in education the failforward approach is all about
preparing students for anunpredictable future.
Our friend, and probably he'sgrowing to be yours, john
Maxwell, has popularized thisconcept in his book Failing
Forward.
John emphasizes viewing failureas a growth opportunity.
He's for real.
(06:47):
He's like the Yoda of embracingfailure Wise and endlessly
quotable.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Maxwell Yoda.
I like that.
So, speaking of practicalwisdom, let's talk about how we
can implement some of these failforward strategies.
In all that we do, certainly,but especially in the classroom.
So I know step one Gina, you'regoing to kind of walk us
through this has to be aboutcreating safe environments for
risk taking.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
For sure.
So redefining failure is key.
If students see it as alearning experience rather than
a disaster, they're more likelyto take risks and innovate
Rather than a disaster.
They're more likely to takerisks and innovate.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
To quote Yoda.
I mean John.
He says sometimes you win,sometimes you learn.
Actually, hang on, wait, I'mcalling hype button on that.
You got to say that John quoteagain Sometimes you win and
sometimes you learn.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I love that and if you really like it, he actually
wrote a song For real.
It's on any of your streamingservices and it's just called
Sometimes you Win, sometimes youLearn.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Now he's not actually singing on the song.
He's not actually singing, buthe wrote it, which we should be
thankful for.
He's not the world's greatestsinger.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
No, or dancer, but it's fine.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
We love him still, but he found somebody who's
great at singing.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, and he wrote a great song and he wrote a great
song but really, you know, lifeis about failing forward and
it's about understanding thatyou learn in the process.
It's rare that we get thingsright the first time.
Yeah, and we need to providespace for our students to know
it's okay to fail.
Think of it like a scienceexperiment.
Sometimes it blows up, but youalways learn something that's
(08:28):
safe for young people to fail.
Also, think about not just likea physical space, but like how
do you respond to failure If youhave anxiety about it, if you
are like responding with, youknow, nervousness or tension.
Even if you don't say the words, it comes off to the student
(08:49):
and they don't feel safe in turnto be able to experiment or to
explore and learn.
So we're going to talk aboutsome practical steps that
educators can take.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Awesome.
So let's get to the nittygritty.
You got a few ideas for us.
Yeah, a lot of them are superpractical.
So what's first?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So, first, educators can redefine failure in the
classroom.
Start by openly discussing thevalue of mistakes and how they
lead into learning.
You know, use language thatframes errors as a part of the
learning process.
For example, instead of sayingyou failed, say well, what can
we learn from this, and honestly, I think most teachers, most
educators, aren't going to saylike, oh, you failed, unless you
(09:29):
want to be a little sarcasticfor a moment.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Because you always have this, but we're never
sarcastic here, ever ever.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
But.
But the reality is is like Ijust mentioned, the way that you
even say well, what can welearn from this If your posture
isn't genuine, kids sniff.
I always tell people, kidssniff out a phony in a minute.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Today more than ever, yeah, so they need to know that
.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Oh, I can learn from this and that you're not just
saying what you think you shouldsay.
Yeah, so you have to actuallybelieve it yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
It's so good, it's so good.
Shifting our language andreally, ultimately, our
expectations behind our language, can totally change the
atmosphere of that classroom.
So, all right, what's the nextone?
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Encourage experimentation, you know.
Create assignments that allowfor creative problem solving
where the process is valued asmuch as the final product.
You know, let students knowit's okay to try new approaches
and that their effort isappreciated even if their result
isn't perfect.
Now, if you think about, youknow I've shared at different
points about my background incareer development points about
(10:34):
my background and careerdevelopment Employers.
When I talk to employers, oneof the number one things that
they continuously are frustratedwith I mean this is probably
for like the last 10 to 15 yearsis the lack of resilience and
problem solving skills thatthese kids have made it all the
way through their entireeducational career, they arrived
for their first job and theydon't know how to keep going at
a problem until they solve it.
Yep and honestly, we can helpwith that as educators.
(10:58):
We can help by creating thesesafe spaces and encouraging
experimentation in the room sothat the kids are building their
skills, they're honing theirskills.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And I think that's exactly the reason why right is
because when you think aboutwhat are kids going to need to
know to be successful, in theirfuture.
You have to recognize thatproblem solving is probably more
important than at any point inhistory up to this point, yeah.
Because it's not going to beabout what we know.
It's going to be about how wecan think critically about what
(11:27):
we know.
So what about the next one?
You've given us two really goodones.
Take us to number three.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So I mentioned resilience, and actually that's
one of them is teachingresilience, you know, by
emphasizing that abilities canbe developed through effort and
practice.
When I think about this oneright now, you know I'm thinking
about my five-year-old who'slearning how to tie his shoes.
So my husband and I decided tomove from, like you know, the
strap shoes or the slip-ons, totying shoes, and I was like what
(11:56):
did we do?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
You've given yourself a whole other thing you have to
deal with.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But honestly, it's every day.
He practices it at the sametime every day.
He has to do it every morningand I even said to my husband I
said, you know, we should gethim a pair of slip-ons, just
like you know shoes that he canjust throw on when we're quick.
He's like no, because then he'sgoing to only want to wear
those.
And I'm like, but we cancontrol that.
(12:23):
And he's like Gina, and then,sure enough, he overheard us
talking about it and he was likeyeah, mommy, I do want some
slip-ons because I like those,like he, mm-mm.
So my point is is that from afive-year-old teaching them how
to tie their shoes and notgetting frustrated when you need
to get out the door, but makingenough time to keep doing it
(12:44):
that teaches resilience just asmuch as having space for
experimentation in the classroomin a senior class.
Those are spaces where we canprovide constructive feedback
that focuses on the process andeffort rather than just the
outcome.
And along the way we need topraise the students for their
hard work and strategies, andnot just for their grades.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I love it.
Well, also, what I love so muchabout your example with your
son is you had to practiceresilience in order for him to
learn resilience because you hadto keep going and letting him
fight and struggle through thisthing.
Yeah, which is what the nextone is.
I think it is Modeling the way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Modeling.
You know, honestly speaking ofmy son, I have to give a shout
out to my husband because he'sthe one that's teaching him how
to diet.
You also need to know when it'snot your skill.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Okay, modeling failure.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
By sharing your own experiences with setbacks, you
know there's an appropriateamount of transparency that we
should have with students or, asadministrators, with our staff.
Sharing with people that youtoo have failed is really
important strategy.
(13:58):
So when teachers and schoolleaders talk about their
failures and what they learnfrom them, it shows the students
that failure is a natural partof the learning journey.
This transparency can be verypowerful, especially in a time
where we think we see and knowpeople's stories because of
social media and we see theglitz, we see the glamour and
(14:21):
I'm not talking about justfamous people, I'm talking about
us.
We post what we want people toknow.
The problem with that is peopledon't know everything that's
happened behind the scenes orover the years that allowed you
to get to that moment,absolutely.
And there is a amount oftransparency that's appropriate.
(14:43):
Yep, yeah, that's true, yougotta gauge it.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Don't tell them everything.
You don't need to know all thebusiness.
But you are exactly right, If astudent never sees a teacher
walk through that process andI've actually visited schools
and been in classrooms beforewhen I've actually seen a
teacher go oh, Ms Smith justmade a mistake.
Somebody tell me what mistakedid I just make?
On the board and it's such apowerful because she's doing two
(15:07):
things at once when she doesthat.
One, giving them a chance tothink critically, but two,
modeling.
It's okay to make a mistake, togo hit yourself on the head
like can't believe I did thatand then move on.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I love that modeling thing To what you just said,
though, too, even the exampleyou gave.
She also didn't call herselfnames or treat herself with
disrespect, she just said oh, Imade a mistake.
Can somebody tell me what itwas?
So she was ready to receivefeedback.
Oh, we could stop right thereand do a whole lesson on that
quick example off the top ofyour head.
That was good.
(15:43):
That was good, but yeah, it'sabout the way.
It's about the way that wemodel the failure.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, all right, take us to the next one.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
All right.
So this crucial professionaldevelopment for teachers on
adopting a fail forward mindsetis a great start.
This can include training oninnovative teaching methods and
how to handle setbacks.
Productively Empowered teacherswill create a ripple effect in
their classroom.
Some of you might be like Ginathere is not a professional
development training called failforward, but there are a lot of
(16:13):
people and a lot of resourcesthat you can access that can
help you create strategies orhave conversations about failure
.
And it might seem like it's waytoo simple to put financial
investment into.
But, friends, I'm telling you,it's a culture shifting thing,
it's a mindset shifting thing.
(16:33):
So you have to resource that inorder for it to be sticky.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Absolutely so.
I mean, a great place to startis maybe there's somebody that
you want to talk to aboutfailure.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Send them this podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Go.
Hey, listen to this, I want totalk about it later.
Another way we've alreadymentioned the John Maxwell book
Failing Forward.
Pick up a copy of that andstart some conversations.
It can be really easy to doprofessional development in that
way.
Okay, take us on to one more.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Collaborative learning.
I think it's something that hasbeen, you know, like a catchy
or trendy phrase for a number ofyears.
But encouraging it andexecuting it is another thing.
So group projects andproblem-solving activities that
allow students to learn fromeach other's mistakes and
successes, it gives space forthere to be a community effort.
(17:20):
You know, when students worktogether, they see failure as a
shared learning experience, nota blaming experience or a you
know like.
Well so, and so, like everybodylistening, did you like group
projects, yes or no?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I believe everybody says no right, no Universal
answer.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
And if you were an overachiever, you probably were
like I will do everything yeahand I will do everything.
So you just like super servebecause you want to make sure
the grade's a good grade and agood outcome right.
The solution to the groupproject problem is to just turn
it back into a solo project andso this collaborative learning
environment and having standardsfrom the beginning so I think,
(18:01):
like having structure standards,expectation, so that there's
group norms, there's a good workdone together to get them ready
to do it but there's a truecollaborative experience can be
a game changer.
Love it.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Love it, love it, and what I love so much about that,
too, is that it's going tocreate opportunities not only
for students to learn to callone another out on mistakes in a
really healthy, solidcommunication way.
But also learn to receivefeedback from other people.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Say it.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Somebody goes hey, I don't think you did that part
right to go oh my gosh, you'reso right.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
Like I know I'm saying that andit sounds so simple, but like
that's a skill.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
No, because I was sitting here thinking like
that's another thing employerscomplain about right now and are
frustrated with is that peopleI guess they call it, like you
know being too sensitive?
I don't think it's toosensitive.
I think that they were nevertrained or don't have the skill
set to receive feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And that receiving feedback, even if it's hard
critique, it doesn't mean thatyou are less than Correct or
that or that everything you'redoing is wrong At all.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, at all yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
At all.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
It all points back to that resilience that resilience
factor, so good, okay, well,you got one more for us, and
even if you got all that otherstuff, correct?
That's only really going tohelp you in the school building
right.
And so your last one is aboutgetting beyond the school
building.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Community engagement is vital.
You know, organizing events andmeetings to discuss school
initiatives and gather feedbackis really important.
It's important for parents andthe community to be involved.
They can support the failforward approach at home, making
the educational experience morecohesive.
And also it's a shared languagething.
In various episodes of ourpodcast I'm sure we'll talk
(19:45):
about how important it is tohave shared language, how
important it is to not only havethe administrator have a
language and share that with theteachers, but the teachers to
have that experience and shareit with the students and
students to share it with theirparents.
And if everybody imagine ifeverybody has that shared
language and that sharedunderstanding of even just one
concept like failing forward,that creates community
(20:07):
transformation.
It absolutely does.
It changes how everybody canfunction in supporting one
another, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And I think, in the same way that this kind of
fail-forward approach might beforeign to a lot of teachers,
it's definitely going to beforeign to a lot of parents.
It's one of the biggestchallenges in the parenting
world right now is parents whosee their kids struggling and
think the solution is for my kidto not struggle anymore.
And therefore I should just stepin and solve it Right, whether
(20:36):
I do that homework project oryou know, I've talked to
teachers who go I get I the kidswheel their science projects in
the door and I'm like parentdid that Parent?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
did that.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Parent did that.
It's so very obvious becausethey're a third grader.
Of course they can't buildtheir own volcano or submarine
or whatever it is, and I think alot of parents think that
that's the right approach.
So if the school in engagingthose parents, and the other
community members can make thatclear it makes a massive
difference and it has long-termbenefits.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
It does.
You know, embracing afail-forward approach enhances
student engagement and improvesteacher satisfaction.
Believe it or not, students whofeel safe taking risks are more
engaged and more motivated.
It leads to them having betteracademic performance.
And teachers who are insupportive environments.
They innovate more, they knowthey have permission to fail,
(21:28):
and it reduces their burnout andimproves retention.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Plus, it seems like schools that embrace failure are
better able to adapt whenchanges come along right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Exactly, schools that view failure as part of the
process are more innovative and,honestly, they're more
resilient, they're betterequipped to handle changing
demands, foster a culture ofcontinuous improvement, like, I
wonder you know that would be agreat research is to see what
was the risk taking or problemsolving quotient or failing
(22:01):
forward quotient of schoolsbefore COVID, before the
pandemic, and looking at theones that, how they behaved and
what they did, and the resultsthat they saw, yeah.
Versus ones that didn't reallyhave that permission to take
risks or that problem-solvingcommunity environment.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, that would just .
Yeah, that would be.
I think a lot of schoolsprobably lost the appetite for
risk in the wake of COVID, forsure.
So just to sum it all up herein a nutshell, it seems like
embracing failure, or at leastrecognizing it's a part of
education, leads to a brighterfuture for literally everyone
involved, right?
So by redefining failure,encouraging risk-taking,
(22:41):
fostering growth mindsets,building supportive school
cultures, we literally can turnsetbacks into valuable learning
experiences for students.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I agree.
I agree, andrew, and you knowwe can continue to journey
toward innovation and excellencein education, but let's
celebrate the power of failure.
You know, I would love even ifthere were like weeks dedicated
to celebrating the failures thatwe took you know, together we
can create a culture ofresilience, creativity and
(23:11):
continuous improvement.
So here's to failing forwardalong the way.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Absolutely Cheers to that.
This is so solid, so practical,but it did just remind me of a
story, really, actually, it'ssome research that we came
across a couple years ago,myself and Tim, our founder,
about how we can help studentshandle their failure better.
(23:38):
So some researchers and I'lljust tell this really quick
researchers from Stanford, yale,columbia and other places it
was a whole research team gottogether.
I think it was back in 2014, soa while back, but the stuff
they learned is just as valuabletoday as it was back then
(24:00):
gathered high school studentsand the goal of the study was to
find out what kind of feedbackis most helpful when students
have underperformed on anassignment.
So, that's a fancy way of sayingthey failed right, they didn't
get 100% and what they weretrying to figure out is what
could you say to help a student,kind of bounce back from that
negative experience that theyhad or the failure that they
experienced.
So they had middle school, highschool teachers assign an essay
(24:23):
writing assignment to theirstudents.
So the students turned theassignment in the assignments.
The essays were then graded sothey marked them up crazy with
red lines and the experiment wasactually where they would
change what they wrote at thetop of the paper.
So I don't know if you remember, when you get an assignment
back, your teacher says you know?
(24:43):
it was a really good idea, butyou need to work on your
spelling or whatever.
So they started.
They literally experimentedwith dozens of phrases that they
hypothesized this might help,and what they did is they told
the students who got thisassignment back it is totally up
to you, completely voluntary,but if you would like to, you
can edit your paper based on thefeedback you got and turn it
(25:05):
back in.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So completely voluntary, and they wanted to
see could we find a phrase orphrases that would make students
more on their own decide?
To voluntarily make this changeon their own, decide to
voluntarily, you know, make thischange.
So, to their surprise, theresearchers discovered that
there was one particular phrasethat was used this type of
teacher feedback that improvedstudent effort and performance
(25:31):
so much that they actually, inthe study, used the word magical
to describe it, which, as youmight imagine, is not a word you
commonly find in scientificstudy reports, but they
literally use the word magical.
Students who received thisfeedback, this phrase on their
paper, chose to revise theirpapers far more often than
(25:51):
students who did not.
In fact, in the study, theyfound a massive difference, not
only in the type of student, butalso in the racial divide,
which is crazy.
They found that about, if theyuse this phrase, about 40% more
white students change theirpaper voluntarily, but among
black students it was 320%.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
This one phrase.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So what was the phrase?
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Everybody's probably wondering.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It is this.
I'm giving you these commentsbecause I have very high
expectations and I know that youcan reach them.
That's it, I'm giving you thesecomments because I have very
high expectations and I knowthat you can reach them.
According to the research,students who received this
sentence not only performedbetter immediately afterwards,
but they kept following them fora year and those students
(26:41):
performed better on futureassignments too Wow.
Isn't that crazy.
That's great, and it's such areminder to me of what we've
been talking about all alongright, A student fails and the
difference between them bouncingback with success and them not
bouncing back at all is how wecommunicate the spirit that
we're bringing to our feedbackto students.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
It's truly just being believed in.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yes, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Because when I hear that phrase, I'm like, oh, you
believe in me.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I hear that first.
Then I hear oh, I need to dosome more work.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
But I hear you believe in me first.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
That's the amazing part about high expectations,
isn't it?
High expectations communicate.
I believe you, but I'm also notgoing to let you skate by Yep
yep.
And I think a lot of times wecommunicate belief.
I call it cotton candyleadership sometimes.
Like it tastes really good atfirst and then you feel sick to
your stomach later.
It's.
I believe in you.
You're amazing, but we don'toften hold kids to high
(27:34):
expectations.
And I think that's the recipewith kids who are experiencing
failure is hey, you've got this.
But just because I believeyou've got this doesn't mean I'm
going to let you skate on this.
We need to try again.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
So it's not failure, but it's how we lead through the
failure that really will makeall the difference.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Absolutely, I'd say.
Today's whole conversation insum is keep failing forward and
stay curious everyone.
Gina, you've taught us a lottoday, so much in fact.
In fact, I've got TMI right now.
I've got too much information.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So I think it's time for a DMI.
Andrew, do you want to kick usoff with our Don't Miss it today
?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, Well, what I was thinking about honestly was
just the advice you gave us, andthen the mission of this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
We call it.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
School on a Mission right.
And what we're trying toaccomplish.
And to me, the greatestconnection there was about what
you said about encouragingexperimentation.
There was about what you saidabout encouraging
experimentation.
If we're looking at schools asthe place where students, where
communities even, are going toexperience amazing change right,
(28:49):
it's more than just reading,writing and arithmetic Then
we're going to have to be thekinds of leaders who are not
afraid of experiments, who, whenthat really wild, innovative
teacher in your building rightnow and you know exactly who I'm
talking about you're thinkingof them right now when they come
to you and go hey, I just hadthis cool idea on the way to
work today that you go, you knowwhat?
(29:11):
Okay, we're going to try it.
Your other 12 ideas didn't work, but we're going to try the
13th one.
Or when a group of studentscomes to you and has a really
big idea and you're thinkingthese 15-year-olds have no idea
how hard what they just said isactually going to be, that we
don't let those things becomeexcuses, and that we're
(29:31):
encouraging, inside of ourbuilding, experimentation,
because we know that thedifference between us getting to
where we want to go and usstaying stagnant where we are is
having a building full ofpeople who are not afraid of
failure, who are excited abouttrying new things, who are
pushing boundaries and coming upwith ideas.
That's the kind of leadershipwe need right now.
So I love that idea of allowingfor experimentation.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
That's good.
What about you?
That's good.
You know the research that younoted.
You know specifically thecomment which was I'm giving you
these comments because I havevery high expectations and I
know that you can reach them.
I think it's an example thatpoints back to one of the first
few things I said about.
It's not just the physicalenvironment, it's not just the
(30:16):
things we say, it's also the howwe say it.
And it's how we monitor andmanage ourselves in the
environment.
If you're somebody who is verydriven, you're a striver.
I'm a former striver, or I'mrecovering, recovering striver,
or I'm currently in process of astriver.
But you know, if you're thatperson one, I see you and I
(30:38):
recognize you as I look in themirror that energy still comes
off, even when you try yourhardest not to, and so we have
to do our own.
You know development asresilient leaders who aren't
afraid of failure, in order toalso create space for young
people to feel safe when itcomes to that.
(30:59):
And so I think having like that, that comment is going to stick
with me for a while.
I mean, I've heard Tim share itbefore, but it is.
It's going to stick with me fora while because I want to make
sure that the thing that I'msaying, the expectation that I
hold, is more than just thewords and it's actually like a
lived truth and a philosophythat I'm creating safe space for
people to fail.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's good.
So good, man, this has been afun episode.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
It's been good I might listen to it.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I said it.
Now I'm going to listen to it.
This is going to be great.
Well, thank you so much, gina,for all the wisdom that you've
shared with us.
Of course, we want to thankeverybody listening to this
episode of School on a Mission.
This podcast is only fun to makebecause we believe so much in
you guys and what you're doing.
So, before you hit skip ontoyour next podcast, we want to
(31:47):
challenge you.
Grab a pen, notebook, stickynote, smartphone, maybe even the
back of your hand.
Whatever you've got, we wantyou to write down one action you
are going to take this week.
Maybe it's something you'regoing to do, something you're
going to investigate further,something you're going to go
read about, maybe a person youwant to meet with in your school
building or your community.
(32:08):
Whatever it is, write it down.
Got it Perfect?
Now we want you to shoot us aDM on social media and we want
you to tell us what action areyou taking.
We'd love to help hold youaccountable.
We want you to tell us whataction are you taking.
We'd love to help hold youaccountable.
We can't wait to see all theamazing things that you're up to
, and until next time, folksstay curious, stay bold and keep
leading your school on amission.
(32:32):
The School on a Mission podcastis produced by Growing Leaders,
a Maxwell Leadership Company.
You can find out more aboutGrowing Leaders at
growingleaderscom.
Growingleaders atgrowingleaderscom.
We'd like to thank especiallyASCD Hope Hero, megan Van
Voorhees, the AmericanPsychological Association and,
of course, john Maxwell for theleadership and insights that
contributed to today'sconversation.
This podcast was produced byAngelica Oliver.
(32:53):
To find out more about theSchool on a Mission podcast,
head over toschoolonamissionpodcastcom.
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