You may have heard these words from the legendary American football coach Vince Lombardi before, “leaders aren't born, they are made.” But have you ever wondered; how does one make a leader? In this series, you will hear from two guest speakers that represent two different leadership institutes that do just that— help to make leaders. The speakers from this series share their expertise and knowledge related to leadership in the field of agriculture and natural resources. This episode features speaker, Jonathan Dain, Director of the Natural Resources Leadership Institute (NRLI).
Resources:
https://nrli.ifas.ufl.edu/
Transcripts available here: https://piecenter.com/media/podcast/#transcript
Are you an educator? The Science by the Slice podcast aims to inform diverse audiences about important issues in agriculture, natural resources and public health. Check out our learning guides that were created as an educational tool to facilitate discussions related to the topics presented in podcast episodes. Download the learning guides here: https://piecenter.com/media/podcast/learn/
Music "Homin Brer" by Blue Dot Sessions Available at https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Blue_Dot_Sessions/butterstone/homin-brer/ Under CC BY license Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International (CC BY-NC 4.0), https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/
The views, information, or opinions expressed by guest speakers on Science by the Slice are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily represent those of the UF/IFAS Center for Public Issues Education or the University of Florida.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ricky Telg (00:04):
This is science by the slice, a podcast from the
University of Florida'sInstitute of Food and
Agricultural Sciences Center forPublic issues education. In this
podcast, experts discuss thescience of issues affecting our
daily lives revealed themotivations behind the decisions
people make, and ultimatelyprovide insight to solutions for
our lives.
Phillip Stokes (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to Science by the slice,
I'm Phillip Stokes, educationcoordinator with the PI center.
Take a moment and think aboutimpactful leaders in your life.
Have you thought of any? If so,maybe you're thinking about
teachers, supervisors, coaches,teammates, or even friends or
(00:53):
family members. What was itabout them that made them
effective leaders? When Ipersonally think about impactful
leaders and my life, I struggledto pinpoint what exactly they
did. But I can usually rememberhow they made me feel. Still,
when I think back about thoseleaders in my life, it's not
actually what they did. It'swhat I did that makes me
(01:16):
remember them as great leaders.
I guess what I'm saying is,whatever they were doing to be a
good leader to me, I couldn'treally tell you, because I was
more focused on what I was doingand how I was able to prosper in
that moment. Whether that be inschool, athletics, or any other
pursuit, maybe even justfostering a feeling of purpose
in my day to day life. There's aquote from the novel, The Little
(01:38):
Prince written by French authorsent Exupery. That goes, What is
essential is invisible to theeye. I believe that effective
leadership is not always visibleto the eye, but apparent through
the impressions and impacts thatare made to the beneficiaries
and recipients of thatleadership. In other words,
(02:00):
great leadership cannot bewitnessed or accounted for
without observing the actions ofthose that are being led. But
don't take it from me, becausein today's episode, you'll hear
from John Dean, director of theFlorida Natural Resources
Leadership Institute, betterknown as nearly at the
University of Florida. So now,let's hear more about John's
(02:23):
perspective on leadership in aconversation I led. We discussed
narrowly and how theorganization cultivates leaders
to work collaboratively tomanage the natural resources
that our state and people dependon.
Jonathan Dain (02:42):
Great, well, thank you for thank you so much
for inviting me, I'm veryexcited about this and
appreciate the invitation. Sothanks to you in the PI center.
So my name is John Dane, Idirect the Florida Natural
Resources Leadership Institute.
I'm a faculty member here at theUniversity of Florida, and
nearly in our li we presentednearly is an extension program
in the School of forestfisheries in geomatics sciences.
(03:05):
And what that means is that weare not training students, we're
not teaching students in theclassroom, as people often
associate with universities, wework with professionals around
the state of Florida, ourmandate is to help support the
state of Florida. And managementmade it tough, its natural
(03:25):
resource base. So the nearlyprogram is an eight month
training program for naturalresource professionals from
around the state. And that'svery broadly defined, we train
people from across all naturalresource sectors. So think of
people in state agencies andfederal agencies, think of
people in local governments andcity governments think of people
(03:45):
in nonprofits and incommunities, think of tribal
entities think of farmers inagriculture, think of the
private sector. So we trainpeople from across natural
resource sectors, particularlyin how to try to work
collaboratively to manage thenatural resources that our state
and people depend on.
Phillip Stokes (04:08):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for that
introduction. And yeah, I shouldsay, I guess, as we get started
that I have been through thatearly program, and yeah, I mean,
I can speak that it was just areally phenomenal program. And I
would say for me, personally, alife changing program. And so,
you know, having leadershipdevelopment specifically
designed for Agriculture andNatural Resources issues. I
(04:31):
mean, of course, that's kind ofa niche topic, you know, within
the greater realm of leadership.
Why is that important? Why doyou think there's a need for
that?
Jonathan Dain (04:41):
Yeah, so I always go back to the fact that when I
talk to people who work innatural resources, not all of
them but the great majority andI say I'll just use your name
for a segment so Philip you workin fisheries fill up your a
farmer fill up your wildlifebiologists fill up XYZ. You
know, what were you You imaginewhat you're gonna do when you
(05:02):
decided you want to pursue thatcareer. And most will say, you
know, I pictured myself out on aboat, in a river or in the Gulf,
tagging fish, I pickers figure Ipictured myself on a farm kind
of by myself, tractor, plowingthe land, I pictured myself in a
forest, laying transects. Andvery much this idea of being in
(05:27):
the natural resource world beingin that environment. And then we
ask those same people. So whatis your life like now that you
are a natural resource, bestresource professional? People
tend to chuckle and say, oh,yeah, well, you know, it's
meetings and working with thepublic and having to work with
other agencies, if I'm aregulator, it's working with the
regulated if I'm the regulated,it's working with regulators. So
(05:49):
the need is for those working innatural resources to strengthen
their skills, in terms ofworking with other people, other
groups, other stakeholders, allwho have a stake in our natural
resource base.
Phillip Stokes (06:06):
You know, it's funny, you saying that reminded
me of a moment I had in graduateschool, actually. And it was in
a research methods course. Andwe went around the room, it was
like, one of the first days andthe instructor said, Okay, are
you more prone to wanting to doquantitative research or
(06:26):
qualitative research? And Ithink maybe I gave a response,
you know, probably quantitativeresearch, because, you know, you
can get some hard facts that youcan really hang on to so you
know, for instance, you know, ifI need to get data on water
quality, you can you can getthat, right. And then the
(06:47):
response was, Well, sure, that'sall great and fine. But what if
you find out that, you know,maybe the water quality is
impaired? How are you? How areyou going to work with others to
make that better? How are yougoing to figure out, you know,
what people are doing to impairthe water or whatever it happens
to be? I mean, that's just oneexample. But I guess just going
(07:07):
back to the fact that, yeah, wethink things are a little more
straightforward. And then maybeas we get older or wiser, we
feel like are we learned, it's alot more relationship driven?
would? Would you say that is alot of what you find in the
early program?
Jonathan Dain (07:23):
Yeah, I think that's very, very true. And we
need the science, we need theresearch, we need the training
in how to best apply fertilizersto crops, we need all that kind
of training. But atuniversities, and even in high
schools and things, we get thattraining, which is fundamental,
(07:46):
but we don't really learnanything about how to work with
others, especially when issuesare contentious. When there are
multiple competing interests, wehave different ideas about what
we're supposed to do with aparticular a particular
resource, be it water, land,air, food, growing food,
whatever it is.
Phillip Stokes (08:03):
I guess, just going off that more, talking
about some more of thosecontentious issues. I know
within narrowly, we call thoseintractable issues, or seemingly
intractable issues, right?
Because people do have differingpriorities. And, you know, think
that, you know, our resourcesshould be managed in different
ways. And we grow up differentin different cultures. And so
(08:23):
how would you define some ofthese contentious issues and
tractable issues?
Jonathan Dain (08:30):
Yeah, so an intractable issue in talking
about conflict in terms of theway we think about nearly and
the way you find in a lot of thescholarship, there are a lot of
people who study these things.
It's kind of what it soundslike, it's an issue that we just
can't seem to solve. It's beengoing on for a long time,
everybody's stuck. And therejust seems to be no solution in
(08:51):
sight. And natural resourceconflicts often fall into that
intractable area. And just tothrow out a few examples, very
briefly, most people in Floridaare familiar with the
Everglades. Restoring theEverglades is a very complex
process. And there lots ofdifferent people have different
ideas about how it should bedone. Should it be done, when
(09:13):
should it be done, who shouldmake decisions about when and
how it should be done? And theEverglades you know, as we all
know, many years ago, people hada particular idea about what
that area was, and it wasn'tseen as a an ecological gem
natural resource. It was seen asan area well, you know, we could
(09:36):
really develop this week. Thiswould be great for farming, if
we drain it, we have greatsoils, we can grow things here.
And they weren't being horriblepeople. They just had this very
different idea that we knowdifferent things now than we
knew that the people who live inand around the Everglades are
different than we're thenoutside of the tribal entities
who have always said no, this isa sacred place. So now that
(09:58):
we're in 2013, there, there's adifferent baseline of where we
are, we're not where theEverglades were back in the
1700s, before colonists came inand really changed the whole
plumbing before engineers cameand replant replumbed it. So we
can't really put it back to whatit was. Even if we could for a
(10:20):
lot of people that wouldn'tactually be putting it back the
way it was, it can never berestored, because what was lost
is something far more profoundthan just some water flowing in
this direction or some species.
So that's what I mean byintractable conflict, because
how do you begin to bringtogether 1000s of stakeholders
(10:42):
who are never really going toagree on what to do? And there's
so many different jurisdictions.
So there are localjurisdictions, there are state
jurisdictions there are federalagencies involved all very, very
complicated and sovereign tribalentities. So it's attractively
because how do you work throughsomething like that? The
baselines are different, thatpeople are different, the issues
(11:02):
are so complicated. Sointractable issues, have many
stakeholders, many competinginterests, very complex,
ecologically environmentally,historically have all sorts of
complexities in terms of who'smade decisions, changing
baselines. So intractableconflicts are intractable
because they're just reallycomplicated in many different
(11:23):
ways.
Phillip Stokes (11:26):
John, I'm, I'm kind of all of these memories of
gnarly are flooding back into mymind, but one of them is when we
were at the Rodman dam in theRodman reservoir near Palatka,
Florida. So the Rodman reservoirwas formed because of the cross
Florida Barge Canal thatbasically they wanted to have a
(11:46):
waterway, split Florida in half,more or less. And so you said
something, you know, shiftingbaselines, you know, it's the
land isn't the same as it usedto be. And I know that is a
current conflict. But I rememberthinking like, someone came to
Florida and I don't know, whenmy idea probably had kind of a
(12:07):
big dream, a big idea and wantedto do something kind of one of
these like natural resources,entrepreneurs and do something,
you know, big. But of course,there are a lot of ripple
effects. And it just changes somuch. And we need even now
today, those decisions areimpacting people's lives. And we
(12:27):
need leaders to help mediatesome of those issues, right?
Jonathan Dain (12:31):
Yeah. And coincidentally, that was the
other or one of the otherexamples I was going to bring
up. Because when they built thatCrossfire, Florida Barge Canal,
when they started and stopped,they dammed off the Ocklawaha
River. And they created whatsome people call a reservoir,
what some people call a pond,what some people call a lake.
And it's also one of the bestfishing spots in the country. So
(12:53):
because of those earlydecisions, which we can argue
about whether they're misguidedor not, that had happened. There
are people who economicallydepend on that there are people
whose identity is heavilyinvested. And in that area is a
fishing paradise, it'seconomically important for the
county, etc. And there are thosewho are just as passionately
(13:16):
believe that that that damshould come down and the river
should be restored. And fishingwould be even better if it was
restored. And it would bringeven more economic development
and etc, etc. So just very, verydifferent perspectives on it.
And much like I was describingthe Everglades, the area in and
around that, that dam arecontrolled by different
agencies. And certainly thereare lots of different policies
(13:41):
and groups who would have tomake the same decision if or
when that is going to berestored. So it's a very good.
And in terms of an example of anintractable issue. It's been
going on for years and years andyears and years and years.
Phillip Stokes (13:57):
Yeah, I think I think I still see bumper
stickers that say what free doclaw Absolutely.
Jonathan Dain (14:02):
Yeah.
Phillip Stokes (14:04):
You know, a lot of times we view disagreement as
good or fine. Okay, right. Likewe go to a restaurant. We order
different things. We disagree onwhat food is good, and what food
is bad. But with conflict, it'sa very uncomfortable thing to go
through. And I don't know, in away, it's like you can't have
(14:24):
greener pastures. Without that,though. Would you agree with
that?
Jonathan Dain (14:28):
I agree. And we do this little exercise in early
which you may recall. And we askyou to think about a conflict
that you're familiar with, thatyou're part of, and everybody
can come up with thatimmediately. Whether it's from
their office, whether it'sfamily, whether it's from their
community, whether it'ssomething else, and we ask them
so just when we're telling, howdoes that make you feel? And
(14:51):
people talk about being angryand frustrated, and confused and
bitter and tired and sad, allthose sorts of things which you
might have They call negativeemotions right painful, as you
said. And then we say sostopping there. Is there
anything positive that conflictcan offer? And people stop and
(15:12):
think and say, Well, yeah, Imean, you could form new
relationships, new ideas comeout. We can develop plans,
creative thoughts, partnerships,all sorts of good things to come
from it. So why that disconnect?
Why when you mentioned conflict,does it make you feel bad? Is it
(15:33):
painful, yet it offers all theseopportunities? And that's kind
of where we start and early,that idea that conflict can
offer opportunities and when youdifferentiate between
destructive conflict andconstructive conflict, and if we
can see conflict, reframe it iscollaborative problem solving,
instead of how am I going to getwhat I want? How are you going
(15:54):
to get what you want? I'm goingto make sure you don't get you
want, what you want, etc? Howcan we well, you know, how can
we work together to overcomethis issue to fix this, that
opens up this world ofopportunities for for working
through even what seemed likeintractable conflict, right?
Phillip Stokes (16:11):
Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about, you
know, how the nearly programgoes about developing some of
these skills and abilities,these leadership traits that we
don't necessarily always thinkabout as leadership traits. But
of course they are. What's kindof the process of of that within
early?
Jonathan Dain (16:29):
Yeah, that's a really great question. And like
I said, we'd start with, weoften don't often think about
the fact that this is a reallyunique set of skills and
concepts and tools. It'salthough it's seems like common
sense, it's not common practice,the kinds of things we work
with. So to answer yourquestion, each year, we have a
(16:52):
group of 20 to 24 professionalsfrom around the state. And I
think I alluded to this earlier,from all sorts of different
sectors and all different partsof the state, those who work
inland, those who work on thewater, etc, etc. And we bring
them together once a month, foreight months. And each month, we
(17:14):
have a three day session, wherewe take them to a different
place in Florida, and introducethem to contentious natural
resource issue. That could beissues related to the fishing
industry, red snapper fishing,that could be issues related to
Everglades restoration, as wejust mentioned, or to the Rodman
dam issue, that could berestoring bays, that could be
(17:39):
wildlife corridors, that couldbe the challenges faced by
agriculture, and 2023. Soanyway, we bring them together.
And the there are kind of fourpillars to the program or four
legs to the stool, I guess youcould say. So the first one is
you have this really diversegroup of people. So as we travel
around the state, they get toknow each other very, very well.
(18:02):
And because they're coming fromdifferent parts of the state,
different perspectives,different disciplines, different
professions, they look at thesame issue through very
different eyes, and byfacilitating many opportunities
for them to talk about how theysee the issue and why you're
exposed to this really vastarray of expertise and of ways
(18:24):
of looking at things. So thefirst pillar is that your cohort
really gives you this access toall sorts of perceptions and
perspectives and knowledge. Thesecond thing is we provide
people as you know, withtraining, so we work with
(18:45):
fellows on how do you analyze aconflict or situation?
negotiation skills? How do youtalk about issues or frame them
in a way that brings peopletogether versus pulling them
apart? How do you designmeetings so that people leave
the meeting thinking? Yeah, itwas good. We accomplished
something versus Oh, Lord,another meeting? How do you in
(19:09):
particular, listen to otherperspectives? And I probably
should have started withlistening, because that is
really the fundamental skillconcept, the fundamental part of
everything we do. We all knowhow to listen but listening in
new and different ways, tryingto understand why people feel
(19:29):
the way they do, as opposed tolistening to respond. Okay, I
know what I'm going to say nowor Philip is wrong or Philip is
right. But really listening.
Seeking first to understandbefore seeking to be understood
is as Stephen Covey once wrote,and is actually in the Old
Testament and in differentwords. So we work with them on
those kinds of skills, reallypractical stuff that they can go
(19:52):
back the next day and apply intheir jobs. So a diverse group
of focus on those skills andconcepts, we always take a field
trip. And by that I mean we getpeople out to see and experience
the resource, because I can putup a PowerPoint slide of
somebody canoeing on a river andyou go, Oh, that's nice, or
(20:13):
somebody plowing a field. Butbeing on a farm, being on a
river, being on a boat fishingreally gives you a sense of what
people are concerned about andwhy. And then the final thing
that we do is we introduce thegroup to stakeholders, people
who have different perspectiveson the issue, a wide variety of
(20:35):
perspectives. So if we weretalking about the Rodman dam, we
would introduce the group topeople who think the dam should
be taken down to the riverrestored. And we'd have you hear
from people who passionatelyfeel that that should be
maintained as a fishingparadise, we would have you meet
with natural resource managersfrom agencies so that those in
(20:56):
the program are not being taskedwith deciding who's right. But
being tasked with listening andtrying to understand the
different perspectives. And oneof the things that in a way
we're most proud of is, youknow, we do evaluations after
each of these sessions, and wehave for years, and one of the
comments that we get most oftenis, wow, that issue is way more
(21:19):
complex than I thought it was.
And that's really what we'retrying to get at, recognize how
complex it is. And then here'ssome tools to begin to work and
address that complexity.
Phillip Stokes (21:32):
Yeah, it's part of that experiential learning,
right? And yeah, when you, whenyou're there, when you're
experiencing at least a snapshotof it, you see it in a whole
different way. And you learnmore about the complexities. So
thinking about, you know, whenyou go through the narrowly
program, or or really anyleadership program, you come
(21:55):
out, you know, how can a leaderempower and enable others, right
to act towards problem solving,and, and just, hopefully
creating social change?
Jonathan Dain (22:08):
Yes, that's a really good question. And, you
know, if you think about peoplethat you or our listeners are
thinking of, is great leaders,whether it's on the
international stage, whetherit's historically, whether it's
in your local community, yourealize that they're all really
different, because thesituations are also different.
And that's the reason we reallyfocus on a group of skills that
(22:34):
are very helpful in helpingpeople collaborate and work
together. And I don't want ourlisteners to take that as you
know, so we want everybody to behappy and hold hands and sing
together. You know, of course,that's great if that happens,
but it's really about how towork across the aisle, so to
speak, how to work with peopleyou might disagree with, and how
(22:56):
to find commonalities with them.
So my answer your question isthat we see leadership as
creating the conditions so thatthose around you can do their
best work, right? Sometimesthat's referred to as service
leadership. And that's certainlya piece of what we do. I
mentioned that it really dependson context. So although we
passionately believe in gettingthe input of, or involving as
(23:22):
many different stakeholders inpot as possible, because these
issues are so complex that noone person could ever understand
them, you're tapping into thewisdom of the crowd. There are
moments when leadership isemergency leadership. So if
there's a hurricane likeHurricane Ian, if there is a
fire decisions have to be made,we can't say, Okay, we fill up
(23:44):
the hurricane, but let's talksit down and talk about this,
you know, what do you think thebest way to, you know, that
that's, that's not, not whatwe're advocating. So we also
believe in situationalleadership. But our real focus
is on the fact that Florida has23 million people and is
growing, we have a remarkablestate, it's a beautiful state,
(24:05):
our natural resources, peoplecome from all over the world to
see them. They may be thinkingDisney sometimes, but people
come to our beaches and ourforests and, and fishing, etc,
etc. So we want leaders who workin the natural resource field,
who can collectively help managethese natural resources for the
(24:28):
benefit of every one. And that'snot an easy thing to do when
you're busy and have limitedbudgets and have limited time
and have all sorts of things todo. So we try to give people the
tools that help again, thosearound them, do what they need
to do in the most effectivefashion possible, engaging with
(24:52):
those you need to work with.
Phillip Stokes (24:57):
Well, John Dean, thank you so much for being
Guess on science by the slice, Ido want to give you a chance to
at least tell listeners wherethey can find out more about
neurally. And if you knowthey're potentially interested
in joining the program,
Jonathan Dain (25:11):
great. Well, thank you, Philip. We're
actually recruiting for nextclass right now, which will
begin in August 2023. And gothrough April of 2024. And the
first places to go to ourwebsite, which is nrli.ai, F A
S, if s.ufl.edu. We also have aFacebook Facebook page at
(25:32):
Florida, neurally fllo, our IDIand our Li, and those are the
two places to start. Go to ourweb page, give us a call, send
us an email if you'reinterested. And I also encourage
people to ask around becauseyou'll be surprised to find that
there's not a great many degreesof separation between you and
somebody who's been through theprogram or has had exposure to
(25:53):
the program. And so don't takemy word for it, ask them what
they got out of it, and whatnearly leadership is, and we
hope you'll find that thatcompelling. And if I can a big
shout out to all our alumni whoare just doing remarkable work
for the state, and we're, we'revery grateful to all of them.
Phillip Stokes (26:16):
I want to close today's episode by reminding you
that this series has twoepisodes. In this episode, you
heard from John Dane, and theother episode features a
conversation with Christieciarelli. Be sure to listen to
both episodes as both guests hadso much insight to contribute
about leadership. That's it forme. As always, thanks for
(26:38):
listening to science by theslice.
Ricky Telg (26:43):
Science by the slice is produced by the UF IFAS
Center for Public issueseducation in agriculture and
natural resources. Thanks forlistening to today's episode.
Subscribe to science by theslice on your favorite podcast
app and give us a rating orreview as well. Have a question
or comment? Send us an email topi center@isis.ufl.edu That's pi
(27:06):
center all one word at ifas AI FA s.ufl.edu. We'd love to hear
from you. If you enjoyed today'sepisode, consider sharing with a
friend or colleague. Until nexttime, thanks for listening to
science by the slice
This is science by the slice, a podcast from the
University of Florida'sInstitute of Food and
Agricultural Sciences Center forPublic issues education. In this
podcast, experts discuss thescience of issues affecting our
daily lives revealed themotivations behind the decisions
people make, and ultimatelyprovide insight to solutions for
our lives.
Phillip Stokes (00:33):
Hello, and welcome to Science by the slice,
I'm Phillip Stokes, educationcoordinator with the PI center.
Take a moment and think aboutimpactful leaders in your life.
Have you thought of any? If so,maybe you're thinking about
teachers, supervisors, coaches,teammates, or even friends or
(00:53):
family members. What was itabout them that made them
effective leaders? When Ipersonally think about impactful
leaders and my life, I struggledto pinpoint what exactly they
did. But I can usually rememberhow they made me feel. Still,
when I think back about thoseleaders in my life, it's not
actually what they did. It'swhat I did that makes me
(01:16):
remember them as great leaders.
I guess what I'm saying is,whatever they were doing to be a
good leader to me, I couldn'treally tell you, because I was
more focused on what I was doingand how I was able to prosper in
that moment. Whether that be inschool, athletics, or any other
pursuit, maybe even justfostering a feeling of purpose
in my day to day life. There's aquote from the novel, The Little
(01:38):
Prince written by French authorsent Exupery. That goes, What is
essential is invisible to theeye. I believe that effective
leadership is not always visibleto the eye, but apparent through
the impressions and impacts thatare made to the beneficiaries
and recipients of thatleadership. In other words,
(02:00):
great leadership cannot bewitnessed or accounted for
without observing the actions ofthose that are being led. But
don't take it from me, becausein today's episode, you'll hear
from John Dean, director of theFlorida Natural Resources
Leadership Institute, betterknown as nearly at the
University of Florida. So now,let's hear more about John's
(02:23):
perspective on leadership in aconversation I led. We discussed
narrowly and how theorganization cultivates leaders
to work collaboratively tomanage the natural resources
that our state and people dependon.
Jonathan Dain (02:42):
Great, well, thank you for thank you so much
for inviting me, I'm veryexcited about this and
appreciate the invitation. Sothanks to you in the PI center.
So my name is John Dane, Idirect the Florida Natural
Resources Leadership Institute.
I'm a faculty member here at theUniversity of Florida, and
nearly in our li we presentednearly is an extension program
in the School of forestfisheries in geomatics sciences.
(03:05):
And what that means is that weare not training students, we're
not teaching students in theclassroom, as people often
associate with universities, wework with professionals around
the state of Florida, ourmandate is to help support the
state of Florida. And managementmade it tough, its natural
(03:25):
resource base. So the nearlyprogram is an eight month
training program for naturalresource professionals from
around the state. And that'svery broadly defined, we train
people from across all naturalresource sectors. So think of
people in state agencies andfederal agencies, think of
people in local governments andcity governments think of people
(03:45):
in nonprofits and incommunities, think of tribal
entities think of farmers inagriculture, think of the
private sector. So we trainpeople from across natural
resource sectors, particularlyin how to try to work
collaboratively to manage thenatural resources that our state
and people depend on.
Phillip Stokes (04:08):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for that
introduction. And yeah, I shouldsay, I guess, as we get started
that I have been through thatearly program, and yeah, I mean,
I can speak that it was just areally phenomenal program. And I
would say for me, personally, alife changing program. And so,
you know, having leadershipdevelopment specifically
designed for Agriculture andNatural Resources issues. I
(04:31):
mean, of course, that's kind ofa niche topic, you know, within
the greater realm of leadership.
Why is that important? Why doyou think there's a need for
that?
Jonathan Dain (04:41):
Yeah, so I always go back to the fact that when I
talk to people who work innatural resources, not all of
them but the great majority andI say I'll just use your name
for a segment so Philip you workin fisheries fill up your a
farmer fill up your wildlifebiologists fill up XYZ. You
know, what were you You imaginewhat you're gonna do when you
(05:02):
decided you want to pursue thatcareer. And most will say, you
know, I pictured myself out on aboat, in a river or in the Gulf,
tagging fish, I pickers figure Ipictured myself on a farm kind
of by myself, tractor, plowingthe land, I pictured myself in a
forest, laying transects. Andvery much this idea of being in
(05:27):
the natural resource world beingin that environment. And then we
ask those same people. So whatis your life like now that you
are a natural resource, bestresource professional? People
tend to chuckle and say, oh,yeah, well, you know, it's
meetings and working with thepublic and having to work with
other agencies, if I'm aregulator, it's working with the
regulated if I'm the regulated,it's working with regulators. So
(05:49):
the need is for those working innatural resources to strengthen
their skills, in terms ofworking with other people, other
groups, other stakeholders, allwho have a stake in our natural
resource base.
Phillip Stokes (06:06):
You know, it's funny, you saying that reminded
me of a moment I had in graduateschool, actually. And it was in
a research methods course. Andwe went around the room, it was
like, one of the first days andthe instructor said, Okay, are
you more prone to wanting to doquantitative research or
(06:26):
qualitative research? And Ithink maybe I gave a response,
you know, probably quantitativeresearch, because, you know, you
can get some hard facts that youcan really hang on to so you
know, for instance, you know, ifI need to get data on water
quality, you can you can getthat, right. And then the
(06:47):
response was, Well, sure, that'sall great and fine. But what if
you find out that, you know,maybe the water quality is
impaired? How are you? How areyou going to work with others to
make that better? How are yougoing to figure out, you know,
what people are doing to impairthe water or whatever it happens
to be? I mean, that's just oneexample. But I guess just going
(07:07):
back to the fact that, yeah, wethink things are a little more
straightforward. And then maybeas we get older or wiser, we
feel like are we learned, it's alot more relationship driven?
would? Would you say that is alot of what you find in the
early program?
Jonathan Dain (07:23):
Yeah, I think that's very, very true. And we
need the science, we need theresearch, we need the training
in how to best apply fertilizersto crops, we need all that kind
of training. But atuniversities, and even in high
schools and things, we get thattraining, which is fundamental,
(07:46):
but we don't really learnanything about how to work with
others, especially when issuesare contentious. When there are
multiple competing interests, wehave different ideas about what
we're supposed to do with aparticular a particular
resource, be it water, land,air, food, growing food,
whatever it is.
Phillip Stokes (08:03):
I guess, just going off that more, talking
about some more of thosecontentious issues. I know
within narrowly, we call thoseintractable issues, or seemingly
intractable issues, right?
Because people do have differingpriorities. And, you know, think
that, you know, our resourcesshould be managed in different
ways. And we grow up differentin different cultures. And so
(08:23):
how would you define some ofthese contentious issues and
tractable issues?
Jonathan Dain (08:30):
Yeah, so an intractable issue in talking
about conflict in terms of theway we think about nearly and
the way you find in a lot of thescholarship, there are a lot of
people who study these things.
It's kind of what it soundslike, it's an issue that we just
can't seem to solve. It's beengoing on for a long time,
everybody's stuck. And therejust seems to be no solution in
(08:51):
sight. And natural resourceconflicts often fall into that
intractable area. And just tothrow out a few examples, very
briefly, most people in Floridaare familiar with the
Everglades. Restoring theEverglades is a very complex
process. And there lots ofdifferent people have different
ideas about how it should bedone. Should it be done, when
(09:13):
should it be done, who shouldmake decisions about when and
how it should be done? And theEverglades you know, as we all
know, many years ago, people hada particular idea about what
that area was, and it wasn'tseen as a an ecological gem
natural resource. It was seen asan area well, you know, we could
(09:36):
really develop this week. Thiswould be great for farming, if
we drain it, we have greatsoils, we can grow things here.
And they weren't being horriblepeople. They just had this very
different idea that we knowdifferent things now than we
knew that the people who live inand around the Everglades are
different than we're thenoutside of the tribal entities
who have always said no, this isa sacred place. So now that
(09:58):
we're in 2013, there, there's adifferent baseline of where we
are, we're not where theEverglades were back in the
1700s, before colonists came inand really changed the whole
plumbing before engineers cameand replant replumbed it. So we
can't really put it back to whatit was. Even if we could for a
(10:20):
lot of people that wouldn'tactually be putting it back the
way it was, it can never berestored, because what was lost
is something far more profoundthan just some water flowing in
this direction or some species.
So that's what I mean byintractable conflict, because
how do you begin to bringtogether 1000s of stakeholders
(10:42):
who are never really going toagree on what to do? And there's
so many different jurisdictions.
So there are localjurisdictions, there are state
jurisdictions there are federalagencies involved all very, very
complicated and sovereign tribalentities. So it's attractively
because how do you work throughsomething like that? The
baselines are different, thatpeople are different, the issues
(11:02):
are so complicated. Sointractable issues, have many
stakeholders, many competinginterests, very complex,
ecologically environmentally,historically have all sorts of
complexities in terms of who'smade decisions, changing
baselines. So intractableconflicts are intractable
because they're just reallycomplicated in many different
(11:23):
ways.
Phillip Stokes (11:26):
John, I'm, I'm kind of all of these memories of
gnarly are flooding back into mymind, but one of them is when we
were at the Rodman dam in theRodman reservoir near Palatka,
Florida. So the Rodman reservoirwas formed because of the cross
Florida Barge Canal thatbasically they wanted to have a
(11:46):
waterway, split Florida in half,more or less. And so you said
something, you know, shiftingbaselines, you know, it's the
land isn't the same as it usedto be. And I know that is a
current conflict. But I rememberthinking like, someone came to
Florida and I don't know, whenmy idea probably had kind of a
(12:07):
big dream, a big idea and wantedto do something kind of one of
these like natural resources,entrepreneurs and do something,
you know, big. But of course,there are a lot of ripple
effects. And it just changes somuch. And we need even now
today, those decisions areimpacting people's lives. And we
(12:27):
need leaders to help mediatesome of those issues, right?
Jonathan Dain (12:31):
Yeah. And coincidentally, that was the
other or one of the otherexamples I was going to bring
up. Because when they built thatCrossfire, Florida Barge Canal,
when they started and stopped,they dammed off the Ocklawaha
River. And they created whatsome people call a reservoir,
what some people call a pond,what some people call a lake.
And it's also one of the bestfishing spots in the country. So
(12:53):
because of those earlydecisions, which we can argue
about whether they're misguidedor not, that had happened. There
are people who economicallydepend on that there are people
whose identity is heavilyinvested. And in that area is a
fishing paradise, it'seconomically important for the
county, etc. And there are thosewho are just as passionately
(13:16):
believe that that that damshould come down and the river
should be restored. And fishingwould be even better if it was
restored. And it would bringeven more economic development
and etc, etc. So just very, verydifferent perspectives on it.
And much like I was describingthe Everglades, the area in and
around that, that dam arecontrolled by different
agencies. And certainly thereare lots of different policies
(13:41):
and groups who would have tomake the same decision if or
when that is going to berestored. So it's a very good.
And in terms of an example of anintractable issue. It's been
going on for years and years andyears and years and years.
Phillip Stokes (13:57):
Yeah, I think I think I still see bumper
stickers that say what free doclaw Absolutely.
Jonathan Dain (14:02):
Yeah.
Phillip Stokes (14:04):
You know, a lot of times we view disagreement as
good or fine. Okay, right. Likewe go to a restaurant. We order
different things. We disagree onwhat food is good, and what food
is bad. But with conflict, it'sa very uncomfortable thing to go
through. And I don't know, in away, it's like you can't have
(14:24):
greener pastures. Without that,though. Would you agree with
that?
Jonathan Dain (14:28):
I agree. And we do this little exercise in early
which you may recall. And we askyou to think about a conflict
that you're familiar with, thatyou're part of, and everybody
can come up with thatimmediately. Whether it's from
their office, whether it'sfamily, whether it's from their
community, whether it'ssomething else, and we ask them
so just when we're telling, howdoes that make you feel? And
(14:51):
people talk about being angryand frustrated, and confused and
bitter and tired and sad, allthose sorts of things which you
might have They call negativeemotions right painful, as you
said. And then we say sostopping there. Is there
anything positive that conflictcan offer? And people stop and
(15:12):
think and say, Well, yeah, Imean, you could form new
relationships, new ideas comeout. We can develop plans,
creative thoughts, partnerships,all sorts of good things to come
from it. So why that disconnect?
Why when you mentioned conflict,does it make you feel bad? Is it
(15:33):
painful, yet it offers all theseopportunities? And that's kind
of where we start and early,that idea that conflict can
offer opportunities and when youdifferentiate between
destructive conflict andconstructive conflict, and if we
can see conflict, reframe it iscollaborative problem solving,
instead of how am I going to getwhat I want? How are you going
(15:54):
to get what you want? I'm goingto make sure you don't get you
want, what you want, etc? Howcan we well, you know, how can
we work together to overcomethis issue to fix this, that
opens up this world ofopportunities for for working
through even what seemed likeintractable conflict, right?
Phillip Stokes (16:11):
Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about, you
know, how the nearly programgoes about developing some of
these skills and abilities,these leadership traits that we
don't necessarily always thinkabout as leadership traits. But
of course they are. What's kindof the process of of that within
early?
Jonathan Dain (16:29):
Yeah, that's a really great question. And like
I said, we'd start with, weoften don't often think about
the fact that this is a reallyunique set of skills and
concepts and tools. It'salthough it's seems like common
sense, it's not common practice,the kinds of things we work
with. So to answer yourquestion, each year, we have a
(16:52):
group of 20 to 24 professionalsfrom around the state. And I
think I alluded to this earlier,from all sorts of different
sectors and all different partsof the state, those who work
inland, those who work on thewater, etc, etc. And we bring
them together once a month, foreight months. And each month, we
(17:14):
have a three day session, wherewe take them to a different
place in Florida, and introducethem to contentious natural
resource issue. That could beissues related to the fishing
industry, red snapper fishing,that could be issues related to
Everglades restoration, as wejust mentioned, or to the Rodman
dam issue, that could berestoring bays, that could be
(17:39):
wildlife corridors, that couldbe the challenges faced by
agriculture, and 2023. Soanyway, we bring them together.
And the there are kind of fourpillars to the program or four
legs to the stool, I guess youcould say. So the first one is
you have this really diversegroup of people. So as we travel
around the state, they get toknow each other very, very well.
(18:02):
And because they're coming fromdifferent parts of the state,
different perspectives,different disciplines, different
professions, they look at thesame issue through very
different eyes, and byfacilitating many opportunities
for them to talk about how theysee the issue and why you're
exposed to this really vastarray of expertise and of ways
(18:24):
of looking at things. So thefirst pillar is that your cohort
really gives you this access toall sorts of perceptions and
perspectives and knowledge. Thesecond thing is we provide
people as you know, withtraining, so we work with
(18:45):
fellows on how do you analyze aconflict or situation?
negotiation skills? How do youtalk about issues or frame them
in a way that brings peopletogether versus pulling them
apart? How do you designmeetings so that people leave
the meeting thinking? Yeah, itwas good. We accomplished
something versus Oh, Lord,another meeting? How do you in
(19:09):
particular, listen to otherperspectives? And I probably
should have started withlistening, because that is
really the fundamental skillconcept, the fundamental part of
everything we do. We all knowhow to listen but listening in
new and different ways, tryingto understand why people feel
(19:29):
the way they do, as opposed tolistening to respond. Okay, I
know what I'm going to say nowor Philip is wrong or Philip is
right. But really listening.
Seeking first to understandbefore seeking to be understood
is as Stephen Covey once wrote,and is actually in the Old
Testament and in differentwords. So we work with them on
those kinds of skills, reallypractical stuff that they can go
(19:52):
back the next day and apply intheir jobs. So a diverse group
of focus on those skills andconcepts, we always take a field
trip. And by that I mean we getpeople out to see and experience
the resource, because I can putup a PowerPoint slide of
somebody canoeing on a river andyou go, Oh, that's nice, or
(20:13):
somebody plowing a field. Butbeing on a farm, being on a
river, being on a boat fishingreally gives you a sense of what
people are concerned about andwhy. And then the final thing
that we do is we introduce thegroup to stakeholders, people
who have different perspectiveson the issue, a wide variety of
(20:35):
perspectives. So if we weretalking about the Rodman dam, we
would introduce the group topeople who think the dam should
be taken down to the riverrestored. And we'd have you hear
from people who passionatelyfeel that that should be
maintained as a fishingparadise, we would have you meet
with natural resource managersfrom agencies so that those in
(20:56):
the program are not being taskedwith deciding who's right. But
being tasked with listening andtrying to understand the
different perspectives. And oneof the things that in a way
we're most proud of is, youknow, we do evaluations after
each of these sessions, and wehave for years, and one of the
comments that we get most oftenis, wow, that issue is way more
(21:19):
complex than I thought it was.
And that's really what we'retrying to get at, recognize how
complex it is. And then here'ssome tools to begin to work and
address that complexity.
Phillip Stokes (21:32):
Yeah, it's part of that experiential learning,
right? And yeah, when you, whenyou're there, when you're
experiencing at least a snapshotof it, you see it in a whole
different way. And you learnmore about the complexities. So
thinking about, you know, whenyou go through the narrowly
program, or or really anyleadership program, you come
(21:55):
out, you know, how can a leaderempower and enable others, right
to act towards problem solving,and, and just, hopefully
creating social change?
Jonathan Dain (22:08):
Yes, that's a really good question. And, you
know, if you think about peoplethat you or our listeners are
thinking of, is great leaders,whether it's on the
international stage, whetherit's historically, whether it's
in your local community, yourealize that they're all really
different, because thesituations are also different.
And that's the reason we reallyfocus on a group of skills that
(22:34):
are very helpful in helpingpeople collaborate and work
together. And I don't want ourlisteners to take that as you
know, so we want everybody to behappy and hold hands and sing
together. You know, of course,that's great if that happens,
but it's really about how towork across the aisle, so to
speak, how to work with peopleyou might disagree with, and how
(22:56):
to find commonalities with them.
So my answer your question isthat we see leadership as
creating the conditions so thatthose around you can do their
best work, right? Sometimesthat's referred to as service
leadership. And that's certainlya piece of what we do. I
mentioned that it really dependson context. So although we
passionately believe in gettingthe input of, or involving as
(23:22):
many different stakeholders inpot as possible, because these
issues are so complex that noone person could ever understand
them, you're tapping into thewisdom of the crowd. There are
moments when leadership isemergency leadership. So if
there's a hurricane likeHurricane Ian, if there is a
fire decisions have to be made,we can't say, Okay, we fill up
(23:44):
the hurricane, but let's talksit down and talk about this,
you know, what do you think thebest way to, you know, that
that's, that's not, not whatwe're advocating. So we also
believe in situationalleadership. But our real focus
is on the fact that Florida has23 million people and is
growing, we have a remarkablestate, it's a beautiful state,
(24:05):
our natural resources, peoplecome from all over the world to
see them. They may be thinkingDisney sometimes, but people
come to our beaches and ourforests and, and fishing, etc,
etc. So we want leaders who workin the natural resource field,
who can collectively help managethese natural resources for the
(24:28):
benefit of every one. And that'snot an easy thing to do when
you're busy and have limitedbudgets and have limited time
and have all sorts of things todo. So we try to give people the
tools that help again, thosearound them, do what they need
to do in the most effectivefashion possible, engaging with
(24:52):
those you need to work with.
Phillip Stokes (24:57):
Well, John Dean, thank you so much for being
Guess on science by the slice, Ido want to give you a chance to
at least tell listeners wherethey can find out more about
neurally. And if you knowthey're potentially interested
in joining the program,
Jonathan Dain (25:11):
great. Well, thank you, Philip. We're
actually recruiting for nextclass right now, which will
begin in August 2023. And gothrough April of 2024. And the
first places to go to ourwebsite, which is nrli.ai, F A
S, if s.ufl.edu. We also have aFacebook Facebook page at
(25:32):
Florida, neurally fllo, our IDIand our Li, and those are the
two places to start. Go to ourweb page, give us a call, send
us an email if you'reinterested. And I also encourage
people to ask around becauseyou'll be surprised to find that
there's not a great many degreesof separation between you and
somebody who's been through theprogram or has had exposure to
(25:53):
the program. And so don't takemy word for it, ask them what
they got out of it, and whatnearly leadership is, and we
hope you'll find that thatcompelling. And if I can a big
shout out to all our alumni whoare just doing remarkable work
for the state, and we're, we'revery grateful to all of them.
Phillip Stokes (26:16):
I want to close today's episode by reminding you
that this series has twoepisodes. In this episode, you
heard from John Dane, and theother episode features a
conversation with Christieciarelli. Be sure to listen to
both episodes as both guests hadso much insight to contribute
about leadership. That's it forme. As always, thanks for
(26:38):
listening to science by theslice.
Ricky Telg (26:43):
Science by the slice is produced by the UF IFAS
Center for Public issueseducation in agriculture and
natural resources. Thanks forlistening to today's episode.
Subscribe to science by theslice on your favorite podcast
app and give us a rating orreview as well. Have a question
or comment? Send us an email topi center@isis.ufl.edu That's pi
(27:06):
center all one word at ifas AI FA s.ufl.edu. We'd love to hear
from you. If you enjoyed today'sepisode, consider sharing with a
friend or colleague. Until nexttime, thanks for listening to
science by the slice
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.