S3-07: Telling the story of science

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Minerva Contreras (00:00):
So what is the mind? How can anyone lose
it? How does the brain work?
What is a neuron? What is thebiology behind the brain
malfunction? All these, and somany more, questions arose in
my mind, and I knew there hadto be a scientific explanation
to what was happening to mydad.

Eric Cross (00:18):
Welcome to Science Connections. I'm your host Eric
Cross , and that was today'sguest talking about her
personal motivations forstudying the brain. This
episode, we're exploring howstorytelling and science are a
powerful pair, with MiniContreras. Mini is a
neuroscience doctoral studenton a mission to make science
careers more accessible forchildren from underrepresented

(00:41):
communities. Today we'll talkabout her research, her new
co-hosting gig on Crash Course,and how a family crisis sent
her hunting for answers aboutthe mind . Please welcome to
the podcast Mini Contreras.
Thank you so much for beinghere. I'm excited because

(01:02):
there's so much about you andso much you represent that
resonates with me as a teacherand the students that I serve.
We've been doing the Draw aScientist activity. Are you
familiar with that?

Yes. How's it going?

Eric Cross (01:14):
Great. But I'm not glad it's going great, because
of the reason why we do theDraw a Scientist activity. You
know? So the purpose behind itis to show how students
perceive scientists. We have abeautiful eclectic diversity at
our school, of students fromall different backgrounds. But
our students still imaginescientists based on what they
saw growing up, in cartoons andwhatnot. So they draw it ... we

(01:35):
look at the data; we analyzeperceived gender, ethnicity,
hair type, are they wearing labcoats? And then they notice
that there's these trends.
Like, we always draw the samepeople. Every class drew the
same ... basically, someonethat looks like Albert
Einstein.

OK.

Eric Cross (01:49):
Yeah. I a sk them, "OK, everybody name a scientist
that's a woman. In your tables,come up with as many as you
can." And they go, "....Wedon't k now any."

Yeah , that's sad.

Eric Cross (02:03):
Every once in a while , J ane Goodall gets a
shout-out. And then MarieCurie. That's it. And then for
them, ' cause something hadfailed them, like, whether it w
as pop culture or education,they just weren't exposed to
it. Right?

Yeah . It's not their fault at all. Not at
all. It's ours.

Eric Cross (02:19):
But for them ... it feels like they feel bad. And,

all right (02:23):
A scientist from a Spanish-speaking country. Any
Spanish-speaking country. Namea scientist. And they're like,
"What? Oh , I don't know!" Andso once we go through all that,

we talk about (02:33):
Why is it like this? And then I show 'em a
slide of all the scientiststhey probably grew up with, and
I said , "They're all amazingscientists ... but do you
notice the same trend that yousaw?" And then we create
scientist posters afterwards.
And so I use the I Am aScientist website. I have a
Google s preadsheet that has250 scientists from all

(02:55):
different identities,cross-sections , everything.
And they get to pick. And then,SACNAS h as Chicano, Native
American, Indigenousscientists, and they get to
pick anybody that resonateswith them.

That's awesome.

Eric Cross (03:05):
And so they do. And I'm just gonna show you right
now. We're using Canva. So, right now, one of them, actually
many of them ... this is one ofmy st udents' p oster. Can you
see it? So, you're on many oftheir posters. Because I said I

(03:26):
was gonna talk to you today. SoI kind of gave 'em a little bit
of background. And so they wereall on Google. So if you start
trending on Google, it'sbecause a bunch of 12-year-olds
were Googling you all day .

You're gonna make me cry!

Eric Cross (03:36):
You inspired them.
I showed 'em a clip from yourCrash Course, and then I showed
'em a little bit about yourbackground and some of them
went on your Story Collider.
And they got super into it. Soit's all you and the
inspiration you're doing.

Let me put myself back together.
That's really cool. Thank youso much for sharing that with
me. Really means a lot. Really.

Eric Cross (04:00):
All right, formal welcome
being here. And because you'reat the Salk Institute in San
Diego, I'd love for us to startoff and talk about some of the
research that you're doing.
Maybe just talk about some ofthe work that you've been doing
at Salk.

OK. First, thank you for inviting me. I'm
super-excited to be here. I'meven more excited that you're a
local and I feel like we shouldbe best friends now. OK?

Eric Cross (04:27):
Yeah. Yeah. It's official . It's done. We're
here.

Great. Deal.

OK. The question (04:30):
What do I do for research, right? So I'm a
PhD student. And I amofficially a PhD student in the
neurosciences grad program atUCSD. But my lab is at the Salk
Institute, which some of thefaculty are affiliated with at
UCSD. And my advisor is NicolaAllen. And our lab focuses on

(04:54):
studying astrocytes, which arethese really, really cool cells
in the brain that are notneurons. And they're a type of
glial cell. And glia comes fromthe word glue, because many,
many years ago, people thoughttheir job was to just be there
to offer this kind of netsupport for neurons. But now we

(05:16):
know that they'resuper-important. And so what I
do specifically, I'm interestedin how these cells, the
astrocytes , are able toregulate how our brain is able
to change itself in response toexperience. We know that our
brain has the ability to changeits connections, and it's

(05:37):
really cool because when we'reyoung — you must be really
familiar with this becauseyou're a seventh grade teacher,
and the students can pick upthings pretty quick — whether
it's learning science orlearning how to play an
instrument or if they'reinterested in learning a new
language, it's a lot easier topick up those things when
you're young, because yourbrain is a lot more plastic. So

(06:00):
in other words, it can change alot more than when you're an
adult. When you're an adult,all these things become harder,
right? And there's a reason forthat. It's not like, "Oh,
you're done learning; we'regonna stabilize everything."
The reason for that is that theamount of plasticity that we
have as young people, if we hadit as adults, it wouldn't be
optimal, energy-wise, for ourbrain. It would just be a

(06:21):
super-high-energy demand. Sothere has to be like this stage
of development — we call it thecritical period — when
plasticity is really high,where the circuits stabilize.
And all of this happens withthe input of sensory
information. So whether it'svision or audio or whatever

(06:44):
sensory information, as youexperience the environment
around you, these circuits aregoing to understand and
interpret what are theconnections that they need the
most. And then they're gonnastick with those. And so
there's still some plasticitywhen you're an adult, but it's
not as high as when you'reyoung. And so what I'm
interested in is how theseastrocytes are able to regulate

(07:06):
change in plasticity, and whatis different about them that
allows them to, instead ofallowing a lot of changes to
happen, to be like, "This isenough. We're gonna put a break
on these changes and we'regonna stabilize everything."
I can go on forever,clearly.

Eric Cross (07:23):
No, this is great.
Please, continue.

The reason that astrocytes are in such an
ideal position to regulate thisthing that happens in our brain
is because they literallyattach their little processes
or their little branches tosynapses. And synapses are
where neuron-to-neuroncommunication happens. So they
wrap these synapses, and thenthey can sense what's happening

(07:48):
there, and they can regulatewhat's happening there. And we
know that they change with age.
So I'm super-excited. I'mactually in the process of
analyzing some exciting dataand hopefully it'll be exciting
stuff. So that's what I do.

Eric Cross (08:07):
This is starting to make sense, for a lot of
reasons. Because what I teachat my grade — it's seventh
grade, it's right when pubertyis really starting to take off.

Yep.

Eric Cross (08:17):
And dances and fads and memes and all of those
things are super-active.
And as TikTok — not somuch now, but a few years ago,
all the dances would come outand all the kids would pick 'em
up super-quick.

Yeah.

Eric Cross (08:30):
And I struggle to stay up on 'em. But they just
pick it up. Is there anycorrelation between,
hypothetically, age of seventhgraders and activity of these —
you were talking about theseastrocytes that are
hyperactive. Is there an agewhere it's most active?

So, yes. For different things. I guess that
would be like a little bit oflike the motor cortex and the
auditory cortex, I would say.
And everything, right? You needto see these videos in order to
learn the dances . I don'tknow. I actually don't know the
exact age where this plasticityis heightened. It's a good

(09:09):
question.

Eric Cross (09:09):
I'm just fascinated by the neurodevelopment of a
teenager. And like you said,the adults, it would be
hyperactive because it'd be ...
tell me if I'm summarizing thisright, but if we did that as an
adult, if our brains were stillfunctioning that way, we would
just be overwhelmed.

Yes.

Eric Cross (09:25):
It would just be way too much, too active. And
so does it kind of taper offlike as you age?

The synapses I talked about, they can
literally grow new synapses orretract synapses. And the brain
is really cool in the sensethat it has excitatory neurons
and it has inhibitory neurons.
So the inhibitory neuronsinhibit the excitatory neurons.

(09:52):
And it's like this likenegative feedback loop,
happening all the time, as youexperience the environment. And
so the inhibitory neurons arereally important, because they
kind of like stophyper-excitability in the
brain. We now know that thereare some diseases that are
associated with changes inplasticity, like schizophrenia

(10:13):
and autism. And a lot of thesethings that you would expect in
a healthy brain are notobserved in diseased brains.
And there's changes in theselevels of plasticity.

Eric Cross (10:25):
This is fascinating, because as a
teacher, I'm thinking aboutclassroom management. And what
my young people do in class.
And some of the things are just... they're off the wall. And
you ask them — and they'regreat, loving, caring human
beings — but you couldjust see their biology just
coming out of them . Andthere'll be times like, "Hey!
Hey, what are you doing rightnow?" And they're like, "I

(10:47):
don't knoooow." Andthey're just reacting to
stimulus. It's just reactions.
And I feel like I could see,externally, what you're
discussing, going on in theworld right now.

Yeah, it's like, tzz tzz tzz tzz tzzz.

Eric Cross (10:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly! It's just like a
lightning storm! And then theycome back, as an eighth grader
or a high school student, andthey're completely different.
It's like night and day, justwatching that development. I've
been doing t hat for years.

Cool. I miss the seventh grade.

Eric Cross (11:16):
Yeah. . It's so much fun.

I bet.

Eric Cross (11:20):
I say they're like the skinny part of the
hourglass. Where they go fromlittle kid to full teenager and
everything is new. But youknow, you gotta be a certain
type of teacher for that. Somerun for the hills. But for me,
I feel like that's my spot,right there.

Mm -hmm .

Eric Cross (11:34):
So, you're currently pursuing a PhD in
neuroscience. But the brainwasn't always on your radar,
right? You were an art studentprior to that. I thought this
was fascinating. And I want youto talk about it, because as a
classroom teacher, oftentimesat this age, younger students
go, "I'm not a science person;I'm not a math person; I'm an
art person." Or "I'm a scienceperson; I'm not a creative."

(11:56):
Very rigid, as far as what kindof person you are. Yet, you
pivoted from this classic ....
art to science. Can you talkabout how you did that? What
motivated you to do that?

Yes. I think one thing that I never really
paid a lot of attention to is... we must all be, but me,
particularly, my teenage years,early twenties, I was really
into like figuring out who Iwas and what my passions were.
And so I would try everything,right? And I was in art school,

(12:34):
actually, after being inbusiness school. So I
was in business school forthree semesters. And then I was
like, "This is, I don't know,it's kind of like boring. It's
not really for me." So then Iwas like, "I wanna do something
super-creative." And then Iwent to film school. And then I
got kind of bored. And as I wasin film school, I was in a

(12:55):
directing class. For me, it waslike, "How can you direct a
person without fullyunderstanding psychology?"
Right? So I would start readinga lot about psychology. And at
the same time, in my family, myrelationship with my father was
kind of struggling. And I wasseeing in him certain behaviors
that were not typical and very,very strange. And they would

(13:17):
just like leave me thinking alot. And so these two things
kind of like played animportant role in me starting
reading about the brain. And asI was reading about psychology,
I wanted to know WHY. Right? Sopsychology tells you ... a lot
of the studies in psychologyare correlation. There's an

(13:39):
association between thisbehavior and this experience,
or things like that. But Ialways wanted to know WHY. So
then that took me to read aboutthe brain; like, literally
brain anatomy. And then Ilearned that like there are
these things called genes inyour DNA that kind of regulate
what happens in your cells, andthat there are cells in your
brain that regulate whathappens in your brain, and that

(13:59):
whatever happens in your brainregulates your behavior. And I
was just like, mind blown.
Right? So I was like, "I can'tstop reading about this. I
wanna know everything. I wannabe one of the people that
figure out these things."'Cause clearly there were a lot
of black boxes, right? And so Imoved to Mexico, 'cause
school's way cheaper. And I wasable to keep my job here in San

(14:22):
Diego, but remotely for theweekend. So that was perfect,
'cause that money was enough tolive. And so that's kind of
like how it happened, really.

Eric Cross (14:33):
That's great. And it sounds like you were saying
, because of your father'shealth challenges, that
motivated you to become hungry.
But you didn't just read a bookor two; you course-corrected
and said, "I'm gonna go athousand percent,
become a scientist." What itsounded like you were saying is
that your dad's health issuesreally motivated you to learn

(14:55):
more. But you didn't just learnmore. You went and completely
course-corrected yourtrajectory of life, and said,
"I'm going to become ascientist and study this." Is
the work that you're doingright now, does that connect to
what your father experienced?

In my head, 100%. But ... so in
science you can call something"basic science," where you're
literally just trying tounderstand how things work. And
then there's "translational,"where you try to take this
knowledge from basic scienceand turn it into something that
translates into , you know,treatment for human diseases or

(15:30):
things like that, right? WhatI'm doing is basic science. And
actually, from the verybeginning, we have a lab
meeting and you get to present,every two months, your progress
and your research. At thebeginning of the program, I
would, you know, give mybackground and then bring out
schizophrenia, right? And howthat is a plasticity; it's a

(15:51):
brain disease that has a lot ofplasticity, alterations, right?
I'm passionate about it formultiple reasons. And so I
tried to connect it many timesin that meeting. And then
everyone was like, "No, no, no.
You're reaching too far." ButI'm in a room full of
scientists, right? And I think,just based on the fact that I
went to film school and I didall these other things with my

(16:11):
life, I'm always like, "How doI sell my story in a way that
is super-interesting?" But in aroom full of scientists,
everyone wants you to be veryobjective. So for me, it does
connect, 100%. I'm trying tounderstand how plasticity works
in the brain, and I know thatthis disease that I'm really
interested in betterunderstanding and eventually

(16:32):
hopefully finding a treatmentfor, I know that there's a high
association between plasticityand the disease that I'm
interested in. So even if Ican't really say right now that
I'm curing schizophrenia, I'mdefinitely, in my mind,
understanding the things thatare going wrong in the brain
that allow these types ofbehavior to come out in a

(16:53):
person .

Eric Cross (16:54):
I appreciate you explaining that difference
between ... you said basicscience, and then there's the
kind of practical applicationwhere we hear about the science
being done, and thesebreakthroughs ... but then
there's this gap between when Icould actually go to the doctor
and get a prescription and healmyself, right ? And I got

(17:17):
really excited when you saidyou took all of these different
backgrounds and then youapplied it into this boardroom
of scientists. I've heard fromdifferent PhDs that it's not
uncommon for people to go frombeing a bartender and then get
inspired by, like, sea urchinsand then just deciding to just

(17:38):
go full-course into researchingsea urchins like that. A lot of
people with PhDs have theseeclectic backgrounds. It wasn't
always just academia. Now, yourstory arc is starting to kinda
make sense. 'Cause I wanted topivot and talk about Crash
Course — which, by the way,just as a science teacher and a
former science student at onepoint in time — the legacy of

(18:00):
those videos got so many of us,and my students, through many
of their science courses ... I think i t was
John Green? The original ones?

I think it was Hank. Well, I guess Hank
was ... I'm thinking aboutbiology. But they're both in
the videos. Yeah.

Eric Cross (18:16):
Yeah. They were both doing it. So I love Crash
Course. I love the wholeYouTube channel. And I was
excited to find out that youand Dr. Sammy Ramsey are gonna
be co-hosting the new biologycourse. And you're delivering
the lessons in Spanish, which Iplayed in my class, by the way,
today, for my students.

Ooh.

Eric Cross (18:32):
And then the room got silent. And they were just
listening to it. Andsome of my students point at
the screen. They go, "I showthis to my sister! I show this
to my sister!" They're losingtheir minds .

That's awesome.

Eric Cross (18:44):
You're already busy doing PhD research.

Yes. .

Eric Cross (18:49):
How did you get involved in this and why was
this important to you to do?

Yeah, so I'll start with the second
question. So I went toundergrad in Mexico for
financial reasons, like Iexplained earlier. And I think
there, more than here, thedivide between a scientist and
the general public ... when Istarted in school and I started
learning all these things, itnot only like taught me all the

(19:17):
basic things that I needed formy major, but it also taught me
a different way of thinkingabout the world and the
problems that our societyfaces. And so to me, it became
a goal to be a bridge betweenthe general public and science.
And the reason for this isbecause I know that science is

(19:38):
important. I believe in thescientific process and how we
use the scientific method tocome , to solutions. And so I
was able to see that thegeneral public doesn't really
trust science. And I think thereason for that is that when
you read something aboutscience, there's a lot of

(20:00):
jargon and a lot oftechnicalities that I don't
know; the audience seems veryspecific. So it became one of
my goals to not only be ascience communicator, but also
do it in Spanish. Because I'mfully bilingual. I feel
perfectly comfortable in bothlanguages. A little bit more in
Spanish than in English, butstill. And so—

Eric Cross (20:19):
That's awesome. I'm still trying to get English
right . So praise toyou for being multilingual
.

So if I can do it in English, then I'm
definitely gonna do it inSpanish. 'Cause my family and
my closest friends, everyonespeaks Spanish, you know? So I
just wanna be the person thatbridges the scientific
community with thenon-scientific community. And

(20:50):
so how I got involved ... I tryto do it with my wife. 'cause
my wife is a medical doctor.
And we try to make videos abouthealth and a little bit of
science and things like that.
But we didn't have the level ofproduction that Complexly,
which is the company that doesCrash Course, does. I mean,

(21:11):
with the animation team. Imean, I just learned yesterday
that this project has been inthe works since 2019. So, it's
a crazy process. And itinvolves a lot of people. And
it involves a lot of talentedwriters and script editors, and
so, it's a huge team behindthis. So I have a friend in my

(21:35):
PhD program, his name isChristian, he received an email
from Yale Ciencia Academy,which is this initiative to
connect Latino scientists. AndComplexly reached out to them,
and they were like, "We needsomeone that has experience
with video or is comfortable oncamera, that speaks Spanish
fluently, and that has abiology background, is a

(21:57):
biology professional.
Preferably a scientist. And isinto science communication."
And so he was like, "Thissounds exactly like you! You
need to reach out to thisperson." And so I did. And they
sent me a script. I read it —like, I filmed myself reading
it. And then they called me,and right away I got it. So it
was really cool. And I waslike, "This would mean so much
to me. Like, you don't know howmuch this would mean to me, to

(22:18):
do this with you. I believe inthe project, and I haven't even
seen, you know, all of thescripts." And so, I don't know,
I think we just clicked. AndI'm so thankful for the
opportunity. I mean, it's sobeautiful. Every time we do a
video or every time I read anew script, and then I'm
allowed to give my input, too,right? And be, like, "This
doesn't make sense to me."You're like, "I wouldn't really
say this." And so it's notreally a direct translation;

(22:39):
it's also an adaptation.
Because we want it to beculturally relevant for the
Hispanic community. So it'sjust ... I mean, it's a
beautiful project.

Eric Cross (22:46):
Yeah. Your energy is so great in these videos.
I'm basic Spanish. Likethree, four, from high school.
I'm listening to it, and evenjust the vibe that comes off
these videos, you can feel. Sokeep doing what you're doing.

Thank you.

Eric Cross (23:00):
Because they're great.

Thank you.

Eric Cross (23:03):
Continuing with that communication theme,
you're co-deliver the keynotefor the next NSTA, National
Science Teacher Association,this October. And I love the

session title (23:15):
Using Stories to Connect With All Learners.
Every year when I startteaching, the first day, I tell
my story — my why, of who I am— to my students. I start
there. And I just wanted to askyou a little bit about you
choosing that topic. Is thereanything about our brains that
have to do with stories andconnections, at all?

Great question. First of all, it
blows my mind that I'm giving akeynote for the NSTA
conference. I'm like, what?

Eric Cross (23:44):
Right?
Isn't that crazy? That'sawesome!

Yeah. I can't believe it. I mean, I
don't know . I'm reallyfortunate. And I really believe
in what we're doing. So yeah,I'm glad to be able to tell my
story for the NSTA conference,and like you said, telling your
why is so important. What's thedeal with our brains and
storytelling and the way we'redoing these videos and why
we're using this tool to try toteach biology? Yeah. So our

(24:09):
brains are hardwired forstorytelling. And what that

means (24:12):
Remember how I told you that like when you're young,
all these connections arehappening all the time and then
like they like form anddissolve and form and dissolve?

Eric Cross (24:19):
Yes.

So when I say hardwired, it means that
the wires have been hardened,right? Like, the wire from like
one neuron to the other, andthese circuits — which is what
we call them — are hard now.
Which is like...

Eric Cross (24:35):
Like, physically?
Like, is it actually physicallyhardened?

No. So , that's where I was
gonna....

Eric Cross (24:39):
Or is it like hardened like it's stuck?

Yes.

Eric Cross (24:42):
Like, when you say hardened , what do ... OK, OK.
Yeah .

So it's stabilized, right? It's very
unlikely that it's gonna goaway. And the hypothesis is
that, you know, we neededstories in an evolutionary
sense, because how did you warnothers that there was danger?
Or, you know, there's this foodthat we found and the community
tried it and someone died fromit. But before we had text or

(25:04):
mass communication, whensociety was evolving, these
stories came in really handy.
Just basically for survival.
When you use stories to deliverinformation, you kind of
immediately trigger anemotional connection with the
audience. And so, what we'retrying to do is use these tools

(25:27):
to make biology more engaging ,more relevant to what's
happening now in the world.
Because, you know, the way youwere taught by ... I don't know
about you, right? But me, theway I was taught biology in
high school, it was just like abunch of facts that I needed to
learn. And nobody told me thatbehind all these facts, there
was so much really cooldiscovery that had to happen

(25:49):
for us to understand thesethings. And so we believe that
the way of teaching science isideally teaching about the
scientific process and thediscovery. And these
discoveries are done by a bunchof scientists from all walks of
life. Although, as you know,opportunities for people from

(26:12):
minoritized backgrounds havebeen lacking for some time. But
now we're trying to changethat. It doesn't mean that like
people from minoritizedbackgrounds didn't have these
scientific ideas, right? Theyjust didn't know that that's
what they were doing. So that'swhat we're trying to do. And
that's why we think this is areally efficient way to teach
science. Because your brain isalready wired to do that. So

(26:34):
you can use this tool, thatyour brain is gonna love, and
then teach these concepts thatare supposed to be really hard.
But then if you make them likerelatable, then it's a lot
easier for the students toconnect with the stories and to
absorb the knowledge

Eric Cross (26:46):
In a way you're using science to teach science.

Yeah.

Eric Cross (26:49):
You're using the science of how our brain works
to teach science. Which justmakes sense. But you were like,
"Why wasn't it done that wayfor so long?" Like, you were
right. Science for a lot ofpeople was like just fact
memorization.

Yes.

Eric Cross (27:00):
And when it's embedded in a story, all of a
sudden, like it makes sense tous. And so many cultures
revolve around or veneratestories, storytelling. And you
know, even when you sit downand you talk about something
with some of my students, , I'm kinda like a
bottom line "get to the point"kind of communicator. But some
of my students, when they tellstories, it's like this whole
... it could just be whathappened at lunch. .

(27:22):
And I'm like, "I ate somecarrots and some ranch and that
was it." But this was thiswhole story of who was there,
what colors of what clothesthey were wearing, like all of
this color in the story! Butfor them, that's how they
communicate. That's how theyremember the incident, the
situation, and all of that.
That's exciting that you'regonna be talking about that
with Dr. Ramsey. I hope I couldhear it. 'Cause I want to go.

(27:43):
And I want to be able to listento you talk about it.

It'd be so great to see you there. You
should go.

Eric Cross (27:50):
I'm trying, I'm trying. Now, you're on
Team No Sleep, clearly. Becauseyou're doing all these things.
And I got another one I want toask you about. I don't know how
you have the time to do this.
You must have that gene wherepeople could only sleep for
four hours and they're fullyrefreshed.

I don't have that. I need my sleep! Sleep is
important!

Eric Cross (28:11):
You don't have that. OK. OK. OK. I just wanna
check. I always envy thosepeople. My students swear that
it's them because they go tobed late and wake up early and
they're fine.

Tell them they need their sleep! Sleep is
really important. Especiallylike at their age. They should
get their sleep .

Eric Cross (28:26):
I try. I try. Can you tell me about your
directing role at Colors of theBrain? So, KIBM Undergrad
Scholars Research Program? Thatis a whole other thing that you
got going on. What are youdoing with that initiative?
What is that?

OK. So this started as a grad student
organization in 2016 by othergrad students in the program.
And I joined when I joined theprogram in 2019. And at this
point, we were like a mentoringorganization of a bunch of grad
students trying to demystifythe journey into a PhD program

(29:06):
for undergraduates. And thisinitiative was particularly
designed to help historicallyexcluded and marginalized
populations in neuroscience,specifically. So as we were
mentoring all these kids — ornot kids, young adults
— all the undergrads, wenoticed —

Eric Cross (29:23):
I do the same thing. I say the same
thing. And some of my firststudents are like 34 years old
and I still call them kids. AndI go, "I'm so sorry. .
You're still 12 in my mind."

Yeah. If you're a student, you're a kid.
I'm gonna be a student for therest of my life, so I'll be a
kid for the rest of my life.
Hopefully.

Eric Cross (29:40):
. That's fair. That's fair.

So when we were mentoring these kids, one
of the things ... if you wannaget into a PhD program, you
need to have researchexperience. Because especially
nowadays ... back in the day, Idon't know, some PhD programs
probably admitted you withouthaving research experience,
'cause doing a PhD is atraining thing. So you are

(30:05):
learning how to do scienceindependently. It's like a
training program, right? Soeven though you do reach some
level of independence, you're atrainer. And nowadays, they're
so competitive, and you do haveto have research experience.
And so we had some undergradsthat were first generation, or
came from historically excludedand marginalized populations,

(30:29):
and they never knew aboutscience or research. Like me! I
didn't know that you could be ascientist for a professional
career. And I didn't know whatthat meant. Right? Yeah! They
don't know. And then all of asudden they take a neurobiology
course and they're like, "Thisis so cool! I wanna do this!"
But at the time, they'realready juniors or even
seniors, right? So we noticedthat all these kids that are

(30:51):
coming to realize that theycould be really interested in
scientific research are comingkind of late in the game. And
they don't have all the bulletpoints checked off that a
privileged kid would have. Sowe created this summer research
program where we fund them.
Because the other thing is, allof these kids, there's a high

(31:11):
correlation with having afinancial need and belonging to
these populations. So we fullyfund them and we're supported
by the KIBM, which is the KavliInstitute for Brain and Mind.
They give us the money to beable to pay the undergrads, and
then we put them in labs. Andwhat's really cool about it is
that we direct it. So we're abig group of grad students.
It's not just me. There's like13 leadership roles. And so we

(31:32):
get funding from KIBM and we'reable to pay the undergrads to
do full-time research for 10weeks over the summer. And then
a lot of them, they've neverbeen in a lab before, but we
pair them with three differentgrad mentors. So that's us —
the PhD students — andsometimes postdocs. And we
answer questions for them. Wetell 'em what the deal is.
Like, what's the hiddencurriculum. We give 'em advice.

(31:53):
Based on their researchinterests, we're like, "Oh,
these two or three labs wouldbe really cool for you. Have a
talk with the P.I. And thenbecause they're fully funded,
it's very likely that the P.I.sare gonna be like — oh, a P.I.
is like the head of the lab,the professor.

Eric Cross (32:04):
OK.

It's just very likely that they're gonna
say yes. But the other coolthing is that we tailor the
list of the faculty that weoffer for them to join in their
lab, because we want facultythat are gonna be mentoring
these kids to be faculty thathave a track record of being
supportive of historicallyexcluded and marginalized
communities. So it's a wholething. I'm super-passionate
about it, too, because Ibelieve in offering these

(32:27):
undergrads an opportunity thatotherwise they might have not
found without our program. Ofcourse, all of this comes from
my passion to make science moreaccessible to these
communities.

Eric Cross (32:40):
There were so many things that you said in that
description that I feel like Icould talk about. But did you
say the words "hiddencurriculum"?

Yes.

Eric Cross (32:48):
That by itself opens up a whole other
can of worms. And then you'realso addressing this ... this
reminds me of those jobs thatsay entry-level, but you need
five years of experience.

Ah, yes.

Eric Cross (33:01):
And you're like, wuh? Or the whole internship
thing ... but it's unpaid?

Yep.

Eric Cross (33:05):
Like, all of these kind of things that exist . And
then you're also partneringpeople with mentors who not
only have credentials in theright fields, but they have the
experience and the heart andthe skills and the
empathy-connected piece. Theycan resonate with the humanity
of this up-and-comingscientist. The way I hear, it's

(33:25):
almost like youreverse-engineered what people
wish they would've had.

Yes.

Eric Cross (33:28):
And then kind of almost create a program out of
it. Is that -- am I hearing youright?

Yep. 100%.
That's exactly what we do. Andthat's what we tell them. You
know, we're like, they'reundergrads and they see us as
the directors or the leaders inthe program. And they wanna see
us almost as professors. Andwe're like, "No, no, no, no,
no. We were exactly where youwere like four or five years
ago. We know what the deal is.
You can trust us. We know whatit's like to be you in this
situation, and we wanna be herefor you. And all those things

(33:53):
that you feel like it's notsafe to tell your professors,
you can tell us. And we'regonna solve this together,
because we went through it. Weknow what it's like to not know
what you're doing. And we'rehere to show you that you can
be successful, no matter whatyour background is, no matter
what the difficulties of yourlife have been, no matter what
your racial background or yoursocioeconomic status. You can

(34:14):
do it. And if you're passionateabout this, we believe in you
and we're gonna give you allthe tools to succeed."

Eric Cross (34:21):
You got me ready to open this link and sign up
right now. I was like, "Can Igo back and do this? I wanna be
in this program!" That'samazing.

Yes, you can come join us.

Eric Cross (34:31):
I'm only a little bit kidding . I love my
students . I love my students .
I'm not going anywhere; don'tworry. "Mr. Cross! In the
podcast you said this!" Mystudents listen. They do. And
they come back and they tellme, they give you feedback.
Little 12-year-old feedback.
It's amazing. OK, so I'm takingnotes and I'm writing down just
these identities that youoccupy and here's what I've
written. Like you're, first ofall, like, you're this amazing

(34:52):
scientist. You're a contentcreator. You're an amazing
person, a human being, who youare as a person.

Thank you.

Eric Cross (34:58):
You're also Mexican, female, member of the
LGBTQ community. All of that tosay you've changed what my
students perceive a scientistto look like. How does it feel
to be a role model?

Um. It's really fun .

Eric Cross (35:17):
You're like , " Uhhhh , you just gonna put me
on the spot right there?"

It gets me a little bit emotional, honestly.
I mean, I didn't do this tobecome a role model, obviously.
I mean, I entered the space andI recognized that there were
not a lot of people that lookedlike me or were like me or came
from a background similar tomine. So in that sense, I knew
it was important to stay trueto myself. And, you know, being

(35:42):
in an academic space, there's avery strong tendency that you
have to fight. I mean, we'resocial beings. We wanna fit in
all the time. And instead ofyou becoming a person that
imitates the norm in thosespaces, that we know what the
majority is and what themajority looks like, it's
really important to stay trueto yourself. Because you never

(36:04):
know who's looking at you.
Right? And if they see youstaying true to yourself and
you know, wearing all theseflags that you talked about,
then it's inspiring. Right? Andthen it tells them that there's
a space for them here, too.
Even though it may not looklike it. We're working on it.
It's important to stay true toyourself and demonstrate that
there's room for you. And thereare some systemic barriers, for

(36:27):
sure. But when I came in, Iwanted to like find a role
model that looked like me,right? And that was hard. And
so what I had to do was insteadof trying to find someone that
checked all these minorityboxes that I checked , focus
maybe on one. Right? So, like,a woman scientist. And then I
was able to perceive that youcan connect with people on that

(36:48):
level, too . So even if there'speople that are not fully like
you are, you come to realizethat you're not as different.
And so, it's not us that youhave to convince — it's clearly
the system. But we're workingon it. So it's hard to believe
that I'm a role model. It feelsamazing. And it really means a
lot. And I do feel very muchresponsible to exist in this

(37:11):
space, staying true to myself,and, and just continue making
this space more accessible forpeople like me.

Eric Cross (37:18):
That's awesome to hear. I can tell you, as
somebody who's in the classroom— and this is just the voice of
many other classroom teachers —is that while you're doing all
of this work, oftentimes wedon't get to hear the impact
that the work that we're tryingto do or the impact that what
we represent has on the mindsand hearts of young people. But
it does. And I get to see it. Afriend of mine that I've

(37:41):
interviewed on the podcastbefore, Dr. Desiree Whitmore,
she's a physicist. She's at theExploratorium. She's an amazing
friend. And she was one of thefirst people that I met that
made me feel comfortable in myown skin, having my identities
as an academic, as a teacher,but then also this biracial guy
who grew up in Southeast SanDiego, who has this other part

(38:04):
of his identity that isn'talways represented in academia.
You know, if I'm coming instreet clothes or the music I'm
listening to, or if I'm codeswitching, there were times in
my life where I feel like I hadto suppress that aspect of who
I am.

Right.

Eric Cross (38:16):
Because it just didn't feel like ... it didn't
feel good to show it. But Ialso felt like I was holding
back who I was.

Right.

Eric Cross (38:23):
And it wasn't until I started making those friends
or seeing folks that havereally gone after it, but then
were also, like you said, trueto themselves. I love what you
said about the person didn'thave to kind of check off all
the same boxes that you have inyour identity, but the fact
that they were true tothemselves in general, that's
kind of contagious. At least Ifelt it was. Like, they're
real. They're a hundred percentthem. And it's not the norm. So

(38:49):
I could be me! And that's OK!And I can empower my students
to do the same. That feelsgood, to be able to do that.

Yes. A hundred percent.

Eric Cross (38:58):
I want to go back to young version of you. So as
we roll down to school days,you mentioned this earlier —
you said a lot of biology andscience was kinda like
memorization, when you were in... maybe kindergarten through
maybe high school? Was sciencefor you as a student ... what
was that like?

I have like really bad recollection of when
I was really young. I went toschool in Mexico all the way
through ninth grade. And then Icame here for high school.

Eric Cross (39:26):
Can I ask what part of Mexico that you went to
school? You were —

Right across the border. Tijuana. That's
where I grew up.

Eric Cross (39:32):
OK. Got it .

Science, maybe we had like a couple
hours a week in elementaryschool, primarily. And I
remember like thinking it wasfun, but it wasn't ... I don't
know. I wasn't really a kidthat ... I guess I wanted to be
a veterinarian. How do you saythat? Veterinarian? Yes. < in
Spanish > Veterinaria?

Eric Cross (39:54):
Yeah! Like, animals. Yes.

So my mom tells me that. And that's like,
you know, "What do you wanna bewhen you grow up?" But my
reason was that I loved dogs;it wasn't really like
scientifical. But I remember Ithought it was fun, and it was
kind of like, in my head, itfit into the category of like
P.E. and arts and music, andscience! It's the fun class!

(40:20):
But I didn't really think backthen that you could do that for
a living, you know? So I don'tknow. I guess I thought it was
just like the knowledge thatyou needed to pass exams and
graduate school, or something.
I don't know . I wish I had anorigin story, like the
scientists that are like, "Ohyeah, I was seven years old and
I saw this...." I don't reallyhave that.

Eric Cross (40:42):
It's funny you say that, because I totally
empathize with the originstory. 'Cause we never feel
like we have our own, eventhough yours is incredibly
powerful, as an outsider thatlistens to it. But one of the
things ...as a classroomteacher, that what you said
validates me, is that youremember how you felt about

(41:02):
science. Right? You rememberthe emotional impact. You
remember that was fun. And assimple as that is, if you had a
memory that it wasn't, that itwas bad, or you had a negative
impact on it, you might nothave gone into the field that
you went into. Possibly. Ifthat was a bad experience. And
so there were at least enoughexperiences where you left

(41:23):
those early years of educationthat were positive for you.

Yes.

Eric Cross (41:26):
And also that you felt empowered enough that you
could pivot from doing art intobecoming a neuroscientist. And
that even if you said you don'thave an origin story, but that
alone is powerful. Becauseoftentimes as educators, you're
figuring out what are thethings that matter most in
teaching? There's a lot ofthings that we have to teach,
and we only have a short amountof time. But those experiences,
for your students, when theyleave. 'cause you never know

(41:48):
who's gonna be the next personthat goes on and makes the next
discovery. You don't know howyour little segment of this
nine months or ten months thatyou have them, how that's gonna
shape who they become later on.

One hundred percent. Yeah.

Eric Cross (41:59):
And so I love what you said.

Yeah. I mean, you have such an
important job. And I think,listening to your podcast, and
the fact that you do this, it'sreally cool that your students
have you. And that you care somuch about figuring out what
science teaching is, more sothan the curriculum, and what
that means. And I can tell thatyou have a goal in life to
inspire these kids andcommunicate science in a way

(42:22):
that is just not a class, butsomething that influences your
life forever. And I knowthey're gonna keep you in their
hearts forever. Like, you'rejust that kind of teacher. I
have teachers that I rememberwith great love, just 'cause
they had an important impact onme.

Eric Cross (42:38):
Can I ask you, is there anybody that stands out
to you, that you remember? Iknow you said your memory isn't
that great. But is there anyclass or any point in time or
specific teacher you rememberthat just comes to mind?

Yeah. I think she was my fifth-year
teacher. She was like ... Idon't know, she kinda believed
in me, in a weird way. Therewas a state competition of a
test that you can take thatthey had Spanish, which which
is kind of like English. So thesame, like Spanish. And math,
and I think it was history,Mexican history. And she was

(43:13):
like, "Oh, you can totally dothis. We're gonna sign you up."
And I wasn't a straight-Astudent or anything. And she
signed me up. I didn't studyfor it at all. But she would
invite me to her house, tostudy and prepare for the test.
And instead I would just ...
her kid was also in my class,and so we would just play all
day and never actually study.

(43:35):
And I took the test, and theydidn't even tell me how I did.
'Cause I think I did thatterrible. But it wasn't, like,
studying for the test; it wasjust the fact that she believed
that I could do somethingamazing. And the fact that she
wanted to connect with me onlike a more personal level was
just really cool. It was, Idon't know — it taught me that
teachers are humans, too. Youknow, at a super early age.

(43:59):
It's so crazy that when you'rea little kid, you see teachers
as weird parts of life that arenot really human. So every
teacher that humanizes ateacher is very much
appreciated. . Isn'tthat true though?

Eric Cross (44:15):
It's so true! < Laughs> It is true. This is
exactly why I tell my story.
Like, it's 100% true. Theythink we live in our classroom
and then we just go into acloset and like, that's where
we are. And they see us inpublic and it's like they see
... for me, it's a Sasquatch.
'Cause I'm tall. I know youcan't see from here, but it's
like they're seeing some kindof mythical creature when they
see us in the wild.

What?! What??

Eric Cross (44:37):
Yeah. It's true.
It's like, if you see 'em atlike a Costco or you see 'em at
an ice cream shop or a grocerystore or something, and they
see you and their eyes getreally big. And
depending on the type ofstudent it is, if they're with
their parent, they'll try toavoid you or they'll get
excited. And parents alwayswanna talk about, you know,
"How's my kid?" All these otherkind of things . So you have
this impromptu teacherconference. But yeah. It's

(44:58):
really funny when they see usoutside of our context. They're
like, "Shouldn't you be atschool, my brother?" "It's
Saturday! I gotta eattoo!"

That's so funny. I don't know what that
is. It's interesting though.
Yeah.

Eric Cross (45:11):
It hasn't changed.
It hasn't changed all thoseyears. Do you have any feelings
on how you'd like to seescience be taught? From how you
experienced it to now, knowingwhat you know, is there
anything you would change orinclude or add or modify?

So in the videos for Crash Course:
Biology and Biología, wemention a lot of scientists
that are not the typicalscientists that everyone knows,
right? So it'd be really coolto include them and what they
did and how they came to theirdiscoveries. I would love if

(45:50):
teachers just included it .
Like, "OK, this is a cell andthis is the nucleus and in the
nucleus there's DNA and DNA isimportant. Like, how do we know
that? It's just so cool the waythat we learn that genes are
what regulates everything thathappens in your body, and how
Rosalind Franklin wassuper-involved in the discovery
of the structure of DNA, and atfirst no one talked about her,

(46:13):
because she was a woman workingin a men's lab." And little
things like that. And I thinkthat like if the students heard
those things, all the storiesthat are behind the scientific
facts that we know and we teachin school, they would just be
way more interested. And I feellike they would be more
memorable. So if you do that,thank you for doing that.

(46:33):

Eric Cross (46:35):
So I'm hearing that storytelling element, what
you're talking about, beingintegrated, a hundred percent.
Some of these stores are wild.
Like, we do thephenylthiocarbamide, PTC,
paper?

Uh-huh .

Eric Cross (46:47):
I dunno if you remember that one? And you just
taste it, to see if you're asupertaster.

Oh yeah , yeah , yeah.

Eric Cross (46:51):
And the story behind it is two researchers
were working with the chemicalfor some other reason and it
blew in one of their faces andthey tasted it and they go,
"This is bitter!" And the otherguy tasted it and goes, "No,
it's not!" And it made themstart wondering, like, what
caused this? And I tell mystudents, "Look, don't go
eating things and trying thingsto have new discoveries in

(47:13):
science . Like, don't.
Many people who've tried thatand they didn't write down any
data. 'Cause you could run anyexperiment .... ONCE." And then
they sit there and they go,"Wait. Ohhhhhhhhh." Yeah. But
you're right, there are allkinds of these wild stories
that are really interesting.
They can be a Netflixspecial.You know, how these
things were discovered.

Yeah.

Related to the tasting thing: My entomology professor in (47:32):
undefined
Mexico gave us these pills thatblock your acid receptors in
your tongue. And so—

Eric Cross (47:41):
Ah! Miracle berries!

I guess? I forget what they were called.
But then he would give uslemon, and it was so weird!
'Cause it was so sweet! Youknow? And I mean, I remember
these things. I probably don'tremember like the science
behind it. But I mean, yeah,they block your receptors. So.

Eric Cross (48:01):
But you remember eating the lemon and it tasting
sweet! And you're like, "Whatwas that? How did that work?
How did you hack into my tastebuds just now?"

Yeah. It's just really cool. Yeah.

Eric Cross (48:09):
Yeah. Minerva, thank you so much. One for
making the time to be here. Iknow you're super-busy. Thank
you for the work that you'redoing and sharing your story
and for all the additionalthings that you're doing. And
thinking about where you comefrom, the students, the people
that are looking at you andjust bulldozing this pathway
for the people that are gonnacome behind you. Who are my

(48:30):
students. And this is literal,'cause we're in the same city.
You are trailblazingthis pathway for them, and
inspiring them, and you will doso for years to come. Because
you know, if you got some time,maybe you can come visit my
students in the classroom.
Because they'd love to meet you. No pressure.

Thank you so much for having me, and I would
love that so much! Let's makeit happen. I would love to
visit you.

Eric Cross (48:54):
All right. All right. Everybody heard it?
Everybody heard it! Everyoneheard it! We got it! We
recorded it .

Let's do it.

Eric Cross (48:57):
All right. Awesome.

I had a great time. Thank you so much.

Eric Cross (49:02):
Thanks so much for listening to my conversation
with Mini Contreras, doctoralstudent in neuroscience at the
Salk Institute in San Diego,and director of Colors of the
Brain. Check out the show notesfor links to the resources Mini
and I discussed. And we'd loveto know what you thought of
this episode, in our Facebookdiscussion group, Science

Connections (49:19):
The Community. For more tips and strategies, visit
Amplify.com/Science Webinarsand sign up for one of our
sessions, including theupcoming Science Connections
webinar in October. And ifyou're going to NSTA, make sure
you catch Mini's keynote. Andvisit Amplify at Booth 192. You

(49:40):
might just see me there. Thanksagain for listening.

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