A better way to teach our teachers, with Dr. Karen Betz

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Karen Betz (00:00):
When I was a classroom teacher, I wasn't
thinking about the universityanymore. But I think what needs
to happen is a partnership.

Susan Lambert (00:10):
This is Susan Lambert and welcome to Science

of Reading (00:13):
The Podcast from Amplify. If you're a regular
listener of the show, you knowthat a critical part of the
Science of Reading movement isensuring that pre-service
teachers get the propertraining. Today's guest has a
thought-provoking vision forhow schools and universities
can better collaborate. Hername is Dr. Karen Betz, and

(00:34):
she's an assistant professor ofliteracy and coordinator of
reading science programs forKlipsch Educators College at
Marian University inIndianapolis. At Marian, Dr.
Betz launched a master's degreein reading science, the first
of its kind in the state ofIndiana. On this episode, we're
going to speak with Dr. Betzabout her ideas for how

(00:58):
in-service teachers, schools,and universities can all work
together. We're also going totalk about state literacy
legislation around the countryand the impact it's having on
teacher training programs.
We're going to learn about thecourse alignment planning tool,
a tool Dr. Betz co-authored aspart of her own dissertation

(01:19):
research, in which she used todesign the program at Marian
University. I'm now so excitedto bring her onto the show.
Well, Dr. Karen Betz, we are soexcited to have you on today's
episode. Thank you so much forjoining.

Karen Betz (01:35):
Well, thank you for having me. It's such a thrill
to be here.

We would love it, and I know our listeners
would love it, if you could doa little introduction. Maybe
talk a little bit about yourpath into the Science of
Reading, including how youended up in higher education.

Karen Betz (01:50):
Yeah. So I think like many of your listeners, my
story is pretty similar, whichwhen I graduated from
undergrad, I thought I wasequipped with what I needed,
but in all reality I wasn't. Itaught in Ohio for 18 years
like that, predominantly insecond and fourth. And in those

(02:13):
grades, you know, a majority ofthe students were able to
decode. But those that werehaving struggles with that, I
was not equipped with how tosupport them. Frankly, I didn't
know about the structure ofEnglish, and I absolutely
didn't know how to teach thatexplicitly. So really things

(02:37):
turned for me when I moved toIndiana about 10 years ago, and
I couldn't get a classroom jobbecause I was too qualified. I
too much experience, I was tooexpensive. So I ended up
working for the large urbandistrict in Indianapolis, and I
was hired as a pilot program,which they called me a read by

(03:01):
three coach. And the M.A.
Rooney Foundation, they werehiring coaches to go in and
support kindergarten, first,and second grade teachers with
a Tier 1 approach toOrton-Gillingham.

Okay.

Karen Betz (03:14):
Now, I had heard of Orton-Gillingham, and I knew
that's what special ed teachersdo, and it involved cards,
. That's about theextent that I knew, but I was
supposed to pull off a weektraining and then coach. So
that's what I did. And that'swhen the light bulb came on for
me , of, "Oh, I didn't know anyof this and this was the

(03:34):
missing piece." And youwould've thought that that
would've been enough for me tounderstand. But honestly, I
just thought, "Okay, I have mymissing piece, but I can
continue to do everything elsethat I've learned, like the
three-cueing system." And Ieven went into a district
coaching job and supportedteachers in schools with the

(04:00):
three-queuing, but also talkedabout phonics. So , I was
struggling a bit with how allthe pieces fit.

mm - hmm .

Karen Betz (04:09):
And so I ended up having two Marian University
students and I was their mentorteacher, and they said, "You
know, you would be a greatprofessor." And I thought, "Oh,
that's so sweet." But I havenever thought about being in
higher ed, nor did I have anyinterest in it. But I ended up
going to the interview and Iwill say the position was an

(04:29):
assistant professor ofliteracy, and this will tell
you how little I knew about theposition because I said, "does
this mean that I'm going toassist a professor?"
And I'm very embarrassed that Iasked that question. But , it
just showed my, you know ,innocence in terms of what I
was stepping into. Mm-hmm . Andhonestly, I think they had

(04:53):
exhausted all of the Ph.D.
applicants and decided theywanted a practitioner. So I had
been in schools for 22 yearsand that's when I really
started my journey. That's whenall the puzzle pieces started
to fit in for me because thefirst course I taught had an
excellent text, which was theTeaching Reading sourcebook.

(05:13):
Mm-hmm . And Iliterally learned along with
that first group of students. Iwas probably a week or two
ahead of them in the reading,although there were some parts
of that book that I didn'tunderstand, like the four-part
processing system. Had no ideahow to explain that. So I just
skipped that part. And soanyway, fast forward, I decided

(05:38):
about year two or three that Ineeded to know more, and so I
found out about Mount St.
Joseph University, which I'mfrom Cincinnati, and I knew of
the Mount, but I didn't knowwhat they were offering. And I
talked to Dr. Amy Murdoch and Isaid, "This is my situation,
I've been in higher ed forabout two or three years here

(05:58):
and I need to know more and mystudents deserve for me to know
more." And she said, "Well, wehave a doctoral program, but
before you can apply for it, Ineed you to take the first five
courses in the master'sprogram." And said, "Great."
And I did. I actually took six'cause I didn't wanna stop
learning and luckily I ended upgetting in the doctoral

(06:20):
program, or I was satisfiedwith another master's degree.
And so here I am in year sevennow , finishing year seven.

Congratulations.
I'm gonna do a step back alittle bit. you said, "There
was a moment or a light bulbmoment, something sort of
triggered for me." Do youremember that particular moment
the light bulb went off foryou?

Karen Betz (06:43):
Yeah. I was actually at Marion and I was
teaching a grad course and Iassigned them the Essentials
Kilpatrick book. And I wasreading, and I learned about
orthographic mapping for thefirst time. And I remember
calling Dr. Jamie Piedler andsaying, "Oh my gosh, have you

(07:06):
heard of David Kilpatrick?"Which is hysterical if you know
Jamie. She very much knew aboutDavid Kilpatrick and
orthographic mapping, but shewas so kind and she didn't
laugh at me, and she said,"Yes." And so we discussed it
and that was the light bulbmoment for me to understand

(07:27):
truly what we were talkingabout when we talked about
phonics and that connection andhow the brain learns to read.
And I'd say another light bulbmoment was being introduced to
the simple view of Reading.
That, for me, helped me connectwhat I thought was good
practice. I mean, man, I couldteach a reading comprehension

(07:48):
strategy like no other . But understanding that,
yeah, that's a very, very smallpiece of the puzzle there too.
So lots of moments like thatthroughout.

That's an amazing story. I mean, I think,
you know, for our listenersthat have been listening for a
long time, we've done a lot ofwork around the Simple View of
Reading. We've done some workaround orthographic mapping,
but just like internalizingthose foundational concepts and
then seeing them come to lifeover and over again, right?

(08:19):
It's just really, reallyimportant to have that sort of
foundational knowledge. So goodfor you and congratulations
also. Thanks for beingvulnerable and transparent,
because for many of us, it'svery hard, right?

Karen Betz (08:33):
Yes.

But I think for people in the journey,
particularly when we're talkingabout higher ed, people in the
journey need to feel safe beingvulnerable. Alright, so there's
a lot of conversation aboutthis whole higher ed movement
teacher education sort of asthe key lever in supporting
students' literacy development.
Give us a little context aroundwhy this is such a hot topic

(08:57):
now.

Karen Betz (08:58):
Yeah. Well, I'm glad it's a hot topic. We focus
so much on in-service teachersand schools and student
outcomes, and I think we failto remember that those
in-service teachers were oncepre-service teachers. And then
we need to be thinkingbackwards to say, "and who is

(09:21):
teaching those pre-serviceteachers and what is their
knowledge?" I think I am aunicorn in a way to have had 22
years of experience in schoolsbefore going into higher ed. My
experience is that, you know,we have relatively five to six
maybe if we're lucky, 10 yearsof experience before people go

(09:41):
into higher ed, because highered wasn't ever my end goal, I
think that it's unusual. I dothink it's an advantage, but I
think we have what I see , havebeen left to do and kind of

(10:06):
work in silos and hang on totheories and beliefs that we
obviously have brought to theprofession. And that then
trickles down to thepre-service teachers. Then that
trickles down to this, youknow, them becoming in-service
teachers. And then the problemends up lying on the admin and

(10:29):
they have to provideprofessional development and
they have to provideexperiences and curriculum that
tries to fill in those gaps.
And that's a lot to take onbecause when you're an
in-service teacher, you have,you know, 20, 25 students
staring at you and they thinkthat you're prepared and ready

(10:50):
to go. And the reality is, manyof our pre-service teachers are
entering the classroom notprepared, and they don't know
that they're not prepared.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a real issue. I think there is
a conversation when the Scienceof Reading movement just, you
know, started gaining momentumabout how frustrating it was
for teachers or people thatwere coaches to say, "I spent
all of this money on anundergraduate degree, some of
them on master's degrees to becoaches--and nobody ever told

(11:19):
me about the Science ofReading." We didn't call it
that then, but "nobody taughtme about the Simple View of
Reading or what orthographicmapping is or how students
learn how to read." And so,yeah, I mean, people are
frustrated with that. That'swhy we're looking at higher ed
now.

Karen Betz (11:38):
Yeah. And, and they should be frustrated. And I'm
of the mind that you need totell your universities that you
are frustrated. And I try tosometimes think about what's
going to move the needle here.
And , I'm sure we'll get intotalking about state
legislation, but honestly a lotof it is, when I was a

(12:02):
classroom teacher, I wasn'tthinking about the university
anymore. Maybe I'd have a, youknow, a student teacher here or
there. But I think what needsto happen is a partnership. The
schools need to becommunicating with the
universities and telling themwhat they need. And the
universities need to be workingwith schools to find out what

(12:23):
is needed. And I thinksometimes higher ed faculty
kind of get into that positionand they send students out to
schools, but they don't enterschools themselves. And so I
purposely make a habit of,number one, going into the
schools when my students arethere because I want to see

(12:44):
what they're seeing, and then Iwanna coach them on the spot.
And then that leads to meending up giving professional
development and support to thecoaches and admin that are in
the schools. And then that'swhere you have this beautiful
partnership, and then guesswhat? They want Marian
University students because ofthat.

Right. Right.

Karen Betz (13:03):
And so I think it goes two ways. You know, we
need to solidify partnershipsand we need to work together.
And I think that's going tomake a big impact.

Do you see , and we will jump into some state
legislation, particularly inIndiana, but do you see a
difference between when youfirst started in higher ed and
what's happening now in termsof that partnership or
relationship? Or even maybe interms of districts and schools
better understanding theconcept of the Science of

(13:33):
Reading? Do you see changes?

Karen Betz (13:36):
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of movement now. I think in
the state of Indiana, I'mseeing movement. It's hard to
piece out, you know, before thelegislation and after. I mean,
I'll say this, I struggled onceI knew better, Finding schools
that would be giving mypre-service teachers the

(13:57):
experience that I thought thatthey needed.

Mm-hmm < affirmative > .

Karen Betz (14:00):
So, I needed to find schools that were using
curriculum that were alignedand that had knowledgeable
mentor teachers. Because beforethat I was sending them into
schools that weren't doingthat, and it was almost me
preaching in the classroomabout what good teaching looks

(14:20):
like and sounds like. And thenthem coming back and saying,
"well, I'm seeing the oppositeof that." And so about four
years ago I said, I can't dothis anymore because my fear
continued to be, I can say anddemonstrate and show what is
best practice, but are theygonna be swallowed up when they

(14:41):
graduate into, you know, thebalanced literacy world? That
was my biggest fear. And theywould come to me and say, "What
am I supposed to do if I gointo a school and it's balanced
literacy, I'm a new teacher.
What am I really supposed tosay? And how will I, how will I
be perceived if I speak up andsay something different?" And I

(15:01):
can relate to that.

Yeah. That's interesting.

Karen Betz (15:04):
So I decided that I would find one school, and I
did. And I found a very smallprivate school about five
minutes in downtownIndianapolis. And I went there
and I just, I mean, they put meon the staff roster, ,
that's how much I was there,. And they gave me a

(15:25):
title, which was really cool.

Wow.

Karen Betz (15:28):
But I worked with the staff and I stayed there
with my students, you know, allday Tuesday and , we made
really good gains. So that'swhat I did.

That's a great story. You know, I don't know
if there's research to backthis, so I'm just gonna caveat
that, but I heard one time thatwith your student teaching
placement, it is most likelyyou are going to become the
teacher that you were placedwith as opposed to the things
that you actually learned inyour university coursework.

Karen Betz (16:00):
Absolutely.

And so I could see why that was just really
important for you. But thattook dedication and a lot of
work for you to be able to findthat right context.

Karen Betz (16:10):
It did. And, you know, somewhere close that my
students could travel to andget a good experience from. And
really, it hinged on who wassitting behind the driver's
seat. I mean, the principal wasall in, the coach was all
in--and I hate to say, butI've, I've stolen both the
principal and the coach andthey are now working at Marian

(16:31):
University. That's how...

I don't know what, if I should be like
congratulations or I don'tknow, but that's cool.

Karen Betz (16:36):
I know. Yeah. So those kind of partnerships are
vital for sure.

Yeah, that's a great point about that
partnership. Let's make a pivota little bit and talk about
states intervening withlegislation around teacher
education. What's happeningaround that in terms of
legislation for teacherdevelopment?

Karen Betz (16:57):
Yeah. So, the Reading League Compass has a
great resource on their pagecalled, Policymakers and State
Education Agencies, and it's aninteractive map. And so you can
filter, so when I filter howmany states have legislation in
the Science of Reading, it's 40out of 50. Out of those 40, 30

(17:22):
of them have legislationpertaining to higher education
or educator preparationprograms.

Wow.

Karen Betz (17:29):
Yeah. I mean, I'm encouraged by that. And you
know, there's been sometrailblazers, you know,
Mississippi, In terms of whatthey're doing in schools.
Colorado. Indiana was , youknow, nobody likes a mandate
, um...

Me either.
,

Karen Betz (17:50):
You know, nobody likes to be told what to do.
. So starting with thatpremise, I would say that
legislation passed in May of2023. I, you know, was able to
stand next to the governor ashe signed it just to make sure
that this was going to happen,'cause I was thrilled.

I remember that picture. Yes. I remember seeing
that picture .

Karen Betz (18:13):
And , you know, it was wonderful. And it's
wonderful for those people whofeel like they're in a good
position, that their coursesare aligned already, that they
have things in place. It'sreally scary for an EPP or
educator preparation programwhen you're not. And so I will

(18:35):
say, you know, for us, we wereexpected to have all of our
syllabi aligned and those wereturned in at a certain date.
Many of us have already gonethrough the auditing
process--you know, a team ofpeople come in, they interview
the students, they go out intoschools, they interview the
professors. And that'sintimidating for a lot of

(18:57):
people. And you know, what I'velearned about higher ed, which
is completely different from myexperience in K-12 schools, is
we're not really collaborative . And definitely not
collaborative among EPPprograms.

Hmm.

Karen Betz (19:13):
So, I have no idea what, you know, Butler, which
is down the street, is doing.
But what happened is we had theLilly Foundation , the Lilly
Endowment, they provided us theopportunity to apply for
grants. And so we could applyfor two different grants, a

(19:36):
planning and an implementation.
And most of us in the state ofIndiana, if not all, did that,
and then that brought ustogether. Because I started
getting emails, "What are youdoing in your planning grant?"
"I'll share with you exactlywhat we're gonna do." You know?
"What are you gonna do withyour implema...? We started
talking and then wedecided--actually the Reading

(20:00):
League Indiana is the one thatgot this together--they started
reaching out to universitiesand we started to meet once a
month, and talked about what wewere going to do and that that
was important. And we stillmeet and talk about the things
that are working and notworking. So in my mind, even

(20:20):
though it was scary for some,and there was a lot of
pushback, we started to comeout of our shells and start to
communicate. And, you know,when anybody ever reaches out
and says, "can I see yoursyllabi?" "Yes!" I think so
many of us in higher ed say,"this is my course." Well, it's

(20:41):
not your course. It's theuniversity's and you are
working for the university inorder to develop something
really strong and effective.
But if I can share, and a lotof universities have this
mentality, if we can share whatwe're doing and it benefits
somebody else, then great.
Because we're not workingagainst each other. We're not

(21:02):
in competition. We're alltrying to ensure that all
pre-service teachers, when theyleave the university or the
program, that they're prepared.
And it ultimately always isgonna come down to the
children. And we can never losesight of that. It's about the
kids.

Such a great point. And you know, it's
really interesting 'cause wetalk a lot about the Reading
League and the work that theReading League is doing. We had
Carrie Cordo on to talk alittle bit about the Compass,
right? So we will linklisteners in the show notes to
that resource. I think we oftenthink about them as
professional development forteachers, right? And being a
support for teachers andunderstanding how to grow. But

(21:45):
knowing that they're alsoinstrumental in bringing
together higher ed for thebenefit then of teachers down
the line, that's, that's reallycool. It's really fun to hear
that colleges of education,particularly in Indiana, are
making some changes. Have youseen other support groups

(22:06):
working to help support highered in terms of changes within
their programs?

Karen Betz (22:14):
Yes, which is also exciting 'cause there's so much
professional development forteachers, but not so much for
us, right? And we require alittle bit of a different
professional development. Theliteracy architects had reached
out to me and asked if I woulddesign a course for higher ed.

(22:38):
And so I did that and it's asix-week course. We meet once a
week during those six weeks,and I give them lots of
articles related to what thetopic will be, you know--here's
some objectives you can justtake and put in your courses;
here are some tools that mightbe supportive of that, and

(22:59):
that's been really fun to meetwith other professors across
the country. And I learned somuch from what they're doing.
So it's as much of a communityof practice for them as it is
for me. And so that runs everysemester in the summer, in the
fall, in the spring. But youknow, there's other
opportunities such as when yougo to the Reading League or

(23:21):
Plain Talk or IDA, oftentimesthe day before there's a
convening of higher ed andthrough the STARS, through what
Dr. Stephanie Stoller does. Andshe has done amazing job
bringing those people togetherand being able to share what
we're doing. STARS. So,Stephanie Stoller. Do you know

(23:43):
what that acronym stands for?
Stronger Together Alliance. Andthen she's gonna be so upset
with me because I can'tremember. Yeah. Stronger
Together. Just say that STARSand your listeners can find
that at the Center for ReadingScience. So readingscience.org.
There is a link in there underhigher ed to join. Webinars and

(24:08):
all kind of stuff.

We'll link listeners in the show notes to
that. So , Stronger Together,the Alliance for Reading
Science and Higher Education.

Karen Betz (24:17):
Thank you. You saved me, .

So all of this actually, is a result of some
of the work that you didthrough your dissertation. And
you specifically took interestin this topic. Can you talk a
little bit about maybe why, butgive us a little detail about
what you did?

Karen Betz (24:37):
Yeah, I think that , well I knew going into the
dissertation that I wanted todo something that was
meaningful and usable,especially in the context of
what's happening withlegislation and EPPs having to
really analyze their coursesand make changes. Dr. Amy

(24:58):
Murdoch had worked with thestate of Ohio and they wanted,
in Ohio, for her to, you know,list out some possible topics
that they should be looking forin a course.

Okay.

Karen Betz (25:11):
And so there were lots of topics. And then those
became objectives. And so it'sthe course alignment planning
tool. And so, the tool wasdeveloped , authors, Stephanie
Stoller, Beth Corbo and AmyMurdoch put this together as a
way for professors to look attheir courses , see if the

(25:34):
content, the readings, thelectures, the assignments, the
evaluations, the field workexperiences aligned, and how
they aligned to thoseobjectives.

Okay.

Karen Betz (25:47):
And, you know, you could also then look at what
depth are those objectivescovered? Are they, you know,
covered deeply, reviewed,introduced? And so, of course I
didn't really think about thattool, but Dr. Stoller was my
chair and I just said, "I wannado something related to higher
ed." And they came up with thisidea for me to take that

(26:12):
existing tool and put itthrough two phases. So the
first phase is, I sent the toolout to experts, you know,
Louisa Moats, Anita Archer, andthey looked at that and they
were really answering aquestion: How aligned is this

(26:33):
objective to the research? Andreally all of them were
aligned. So it was probably areally poor question in
hindsight. But what they didwas they said, "Yeah, but you
need to add this or reword thisobjective this way." And it
ended up being so muchwonderful rich feedback that I

(26:56):
think, you know, it was 72objectives at first, and after
I took all the feedback, Imean, I probably was at 95.

Wow. .

Karen Betz (27:02):
And they said , uh little too many.

Too much, you know. .

Karen Betz (27:05):
So we paired it down, but we got a real good
tool. And then the second phasewas, we targeted some faculty
across the country that wouldbe willing to use it. Okay? So
I gave them two course syllabithat were already created, and
I said, "I want you to use thetool." I wanted to understand
the usability of that tool andthe reliability. Well, the

(27:28):
reliability was difficult tomeasure because when you're
just looking at a piece ofpaper, and even though the
syllabus was pretty extensiveand robust, it's really hard to
tell. And so what they did tellme through a usability survey
was, this is an excellent tool,but it's going to hinge on the

(27:50):
robustness of the syllabus. Andit's also going to matter if
the faculty that are analyzingand using the tool, if they
understand all theseobjectives.

Right. Right.

Karen Betz (28:06):
And when I thought about that, I thought, let me
look at this tool again,because seven years ago when I
first started, I would not haveknown how to address half of
these objectives. So I thinkwhat it does is it tells a
professor when they look at it,"man, I have to put something
in about semantics andpragmatics, but I have no idea

(28:26):
what that is. Let me find outwhat that is, because obviously
it's important." And so italmost becomes a tool for them
to understand what is neededthat they may not have even
known about. And also to lookat, "how am I meeting that
objective in various ways andin at various steps of

(28:47):
understanding."

Wow. So, it serves a little bit as a
self-evaluation reflective toolwhereby a professor can say,
"oh no, I really need someprofessional development myself
in this particular area."

Karen Betz (28:59):
Yeah, I think so.
And I think that , you know,the intent is that teams of
people within the departmentare looking at this and using
the tool, you know, not usedfor evaluation, used for, like
you said, analyzing what ishere and how can we improve on
it.

Hmm. Did you use the tool at Marion University
and how did you use it?

Karen Betz (29:24):
I did. I did. I used the tool on our three
undergraduate courses and youknow, NCTQ comes knocking every
once in a while wantingsyllabi, and at that time we
had been rated as a B, and Isaid to my dean, I think we can
get an A+. I think these arereally good now.

Before you go on, who is NCTQ and what do
they do?

Karen Betz (29:47):
Yes, so the National Center for Teacher
Quality. And they just look atthe course syllabus. And they
have a rubric, a robust rubric,and they look at different
things on there and then theyprovide you feedback.

Okay. And then they rate this Colleges of
Education.

Karen Betz (30:06):
Yes.

Okay.

Karen Betz (30:07):
They do give you a letter grade and you can find
that on their website, NationalCenter for Teacher Quality.
It's very interesting to see,you know, how your state fairs
and how different universitiesfair. And it came back in an
A+, which was exciting. But italso really, more so than that,
it came back to say, "these aresome things that you're

(30:28):
missing." And even though wegot an A+, there's still things
that we need to improve on andalways will. So that was
helpful and I continue torevise that.

What about the tool being used more broadly?

Karen Betz (30:41):
Yeah, so what I did is I took the tool and I
created the Master's of ReadingScience program for Marian,
which launched in May '24. AndI used the tool, every single
objective on that tool, which Ithink are now 78 , are found
multiple times across thatprogram. But for me it was

(31:05):
essential, like if I didn'thave that tool, I'm not quite
sure I would be able to createsomething that was something
that I was really proud of. Soyeah, it can be used to create,
analyze, you know, both ends ofthe spectrum there.

Is there a way that we can link the tool in
our show notes? So, anybodythat's interested, I know some
of our listeners are in highered and so if they want to sort
of grab that and use that to doa review of what they're
working on, we'd love toinclude that.

Karen Betz (31:39):
Absolutely. Yes.
Thank you.

Yeah, no, absolutely. So for our
listeners, what are some keytakeaways from this experience
that you could share?

Karen Betz (31:51):
I'd say some key takeaways would be, let's be
more transparent, let's startasking questions of our EPPs.
When you are trying to select aprogram, if you're interested
in becoming a teacher, maybeyou have a daughter or a son or

(32:14):
a granddaughter or a grandsonthat's interested, start asking
some questions about how theyteach literacy. That's
important. You know, once thelegislation happened in
Indiana, we got quite a fewquestions from incoming
students about it and I wasreally appreciative of that.

That's great.
Yeah.

Karen Betz (32:33):
Yeah. I think, you know, we know that so many of
us didn't get that, that Ithink that's important. And
just, you know, understandingthat we may need to put a
little pressure from the schoolside up to the EPPs. You know,
unfortunately it's takenlegislation and I don't think
that's a bad thing because inorder to get some movement, we

(32:57):
need to have some peopleinvested in understanding what
the issue is. And for me, Ifeel like we've got to stop the
bleeding in higher education,in order to really make gains.

When you think about the listeners that are
out there that are currently inschools, in classrooms, is
there any way they can behelpful in the effort to
improve higher ed?

Karen Betz (33:23):
The in-service teachers?

Yeah.

Karen Betz (33:24):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody loves
the institution that theygraduated from, you know? Think
about what you can do to giveback. I'm always asking for,
you know, people that arecurrently in the field to come
in and talk about theirexperience. You know, panels of

(33:46):
teachers that come and talk topre-service teachers. They
really want that connection andwant that understanding and
they want the transparencyabout what is it like, you
know, my professor is sittinghere telling me how to teach
reading, but what is it reallylike to teach it. And giving
our pre-service teachers a lotof opportunity to practice with

(34:07):
real students, under theguidance of course, of a mentor
teacher or their instructor.

Hmm. Yeah. Very interesting. This has all been
very fascinating, ,thank you for the work that
you're doing in higher ed.

Karen Betz (34:20):
You're welcome.

I wonder if you have any final thoughts or
advice or anything for ourlisteners since we have you on
and you have a platform in anaudience. What would you like
to share?

Karen Betz (34:33):
I think I'd like to share that even though you
might be sitting in a positionlike I was where you were just
unsure of yourself or you justdidn't have the knowledge,
there's so much out there now.

(34:53):
You know, I think with COVID,there's now an abundance of
webinars, podcasts, like yours,just opportunities to learn
from others. So don't be afraidto say, "I don't know." I think
people respect that, that yousay, "I just don't know, and

(35:14):
how can you help me learnmore?" And you know, if you are
in higher ed or you're aprincipal who's finding that
changes need to happen becauseyou're the one interviewing and
you can see kind of what'scoming out of EPPs, take it
upon yourself to reach out tothem and offer support. Not

(35:35):
critique, but offer support and"how could we help each other
gain the knowledge that we needto support the students?" You
know, two-thirds of studentsnot reading on grade level is
not okay. And so we're failingkids and it's not their fault.
It's not their fault. It's anadult problem. So let's try to
correct that.

I love that advice to reach out and work
together, both higher edworking together at schools and
teachers then in the classroomgoing back to work with higher
ed to support the greater good.
So thanks for that greatadvice. It was lovely having
you on. Karen, thank you somuch for joining us, sharing a
little bit about MarianUniversity, and we'll be sure

(36:16):
to link our listeners in theshow notes to all of the
resources.

Karen Betz (36:20):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

That was Dr.
Karen Betts, assistantprofessor of literacy and
coordinator of reading scienceprograms for Klipsch Educators
College at Marian University.
You can find out moreinformation about Marian's
Master's in Reading Scienceprogram, which is a hundred
percent online in the shownotes. There you'll also find a

(36:45):
link to download the CourseAlignment Planning tool, as
well as plenty of otherresources we discussed. Next
time on the show. Are youinterested in learning more
about effectively buildingstudents' knowledge? If so,
you'll love our conversationwith Dr. Jackie Relyea from
North Carolina StateUniversity.

Jackie Relyea (37:05):
There is just so much research showing that the
students' comprehension dependson what they already know and
experiences students alreadyhave.

That's next time. Please subscribe to

Science of Reading (37:18):
The Podcast and remember to leave us a
rating and review. We'd reallyappreciate that. And if you've
got a literacy question thatyou'd like to see addressed on
an upcoming episode, please goto amplify.com/sormailbag.
The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify.

(37:40):
I'm Susan Lambert. Thank you somuch for listening.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}A better way to teach our teachers, with Dr. Karen Betz