Episode Transcript
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Welcome to Science and wisdomlive, where scientists and
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meditators meet.
One of the quick first impactsof Ben Thompson, Eleanor Roshan,
Francisco Varela put out a bookon the embodied mind. I think
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it's a big book in cognitivescience, probably folks here
familiar with it. But it wasreally calling into the brain
sciences, the idea that we couldnot look at the brain as just as
something individual independentseparate from the body, but
rather, our view of brain neededto be that the brain is
embodied. It is located in ourphysical system and not separate
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from it. The brain is also thatthe mind is also inactive.
Cognition is by nature, aboutthe actions in the world, we are
beings trying to navigate aworld. And so cognition engages
from this interplay betweenagent and environment. And also,
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the mind is extended andembedded in the world. Not only
are we a part of the world,there are there are no seams
between body and the worldaround us and the other bodies
around us. But other bodiesaround us actually form a part
of our brain. Together, we holdmemories, our laptop, hold, our
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notes are videos, all thingsthat are part of our extended
mind. And so this this kind of avery naturally as you encounter
the meditation tradition, andhere we are, the mind is
embodied, practices embodied.
And so it seems like a very, itwas one of one very quick fruit
that came out of this work.
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Second, out of this work came amethodological discussion. There
was It was quick, there was aquick and important recognition
that the Buddhist body ofknowledge about the mind,
Buddhist philosophy, Buddha'smind training, drew on a method
of investigating the mindthrough direct observation of
experience. This was kind of a,as opposed to the scientific
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third person method where we'rescientists like to believe you
can be detached from your objectof study and measure it from the
outside. This was directlysaying, we study the mind here
inside the mind. And we look atexperience from the mind first
from experience first. So this,this was an interesting
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contrast, and it began to rightaway challenge the brain
sciences, not only to suggest apotential additional method for
studying the mind, but it arguedthat this first person
perspective was necessary toform a complete understanding of
mind that there are elements ofmind of lived experience that
are only experiential, they cantherefore only be accessed
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through experience and thenshared reported on and perhaps
through that first personaccess, we could start to build
a first person science thatcould dance and collaborate with
our third person measurementsand knowledge. At the same time,
not not only that, thispossibility of a first person
method, not only was itrecognised and then seen as a
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potential adjunct designers, butbut it also involved in point of
reflection that science is not athird person method. It is
always mediated by thescientists experience, and you
can't measure what you don'tobserve. And so there's been an
additional form reflection thattook from this field that
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science is shaped science istransformed by the experimenter
and science itself will changethe experimenter and their
experience. And so this was thiswas an exciting kind of one of
these second pivots that I thinkshow how this dialogue began to
change the brain sciences. Thiskind of this has culminated now
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in that, you know, ongoing workto see if we can build what can
be considered a contemplativescience, that the contemplative
traditions can be as thoroughlyGrantham and in many ways, they
are thoroughly grounded inempirical and critical ways of
knowing. And so this is kind ofan ongoing work. And I think
there are, we're still kind ofseeing how this the examples
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that come forward of this. Andfinally, I think just one of the
one of the final ways in whichI, one of the other important
ways in which science began tobe changed by this is the idea
of hybrid contemplativescientific training, and that
this could actually be a pivotalfoundation for contemplative
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research for the possibility ofthis type of a contemplative
science. This is the idea thatwe actually need to start
building a community of researchand researchers that are
themselves trained incontemplative methods And the
the traditional third personmethods of the Academy of the
sciences. And so nowadays, itactually is pretty normal that,
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that most researchers studyingmeditation are also
practitioners. And so and andit's it's kind of a unique
change in science where normallyyou try to pretend you can be
separate from your object ofstudy. Here instead you're we're
emphasising that you actuallyneed to be present with them
with meditation with practice toreally understand it. And that
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the more present we are in ourown practice, the better we will
understand the types ofquestions we can ask, and that
we should ask. And soimportantly, I think that it's
kind of just this, this is acore development for the for the
way we teach science, is I justwanted to I think there's just
even just a little personalnote, I think I had the luck to
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be in be an heir to this idea. Ithink my started my, when I
started my undergraduateprogramme, these ideas were far
along enough that I was actuallyas an undergraduate able to
engage at Brown University andcontemplative studies programme
as my undergraduate study. Andso I studied contemplative
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studies in parallel withcognitive neuroscience. And this
meant that, yeah, from from thestart of, since I was 18, and
starting to study, we hadclasses that involved meditation
labs, where you, you study, youknow, you, we had our normal
seminar, where we talk about theresearch that we're, you know,
we're let's say, We're studying,loving kindness and how loving
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kindness impacts, you know,clinical health that week, then,
you know, we meet three times aweek as well in meditation. And
we we go through this practice,and we we experienced firsthand,
what is the practice actuallyabout? And again, trying to
promote the critical perspectiveof, of academic thinking, yes,
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let's engage with the practice,practice, and then reflect
critically on out of the claims,we're observing what really
seems to be true. And so it was,it was, it's kind of just been,
it's cool to recognise that thiswas something new. And so I'm
excited to see this continue tounfold and be replicated as the
field moves forward. And again,I think I wanted to begin with
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these points, because almoststudying how the brain changes
with meditation is exciting.
It's cool scientific question,but it's kind of it's within the
purview of, of normal science.
It's, let's look at a thing andhow it does this other thing. I
think these are cool points,because they actually point to
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how this dialogue has actuallybeen part of a paradigm shift.
And this is this science isstubborn and slow moving. And so
paradigm shifts are a little bitmore rare. And always a little
bit, you know, it happens in onefield and then in another field,
I don't talk about these thingsas much. But it's it's a it's an
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exciting part of what we talkabout here. And I think in with
with the the science of wisdomcommunity, I think it's it's
cool to share that these areunique fruits of having these
conversations.