September 2, 2024 • 12 mins
Researcher and contemplative practitioner Juan Santoyo explores meditation's role in improving lives. This insightful talk delves into how meditation extends beyond brain changes to enhance psychological well-being. Juan discusses the clinical relevance of meditation, its benefits, and the importance of personalised approaches. Learn about the intersection of meditation, equity, ecological justice, and the convergence of Buddhist and indigenous knowledge.
Discover how contemplative practices can address social, political, and ecological challenges in our interconnected world. This discussion highlights the evolving research themes in meditation, emphasising accessibility and diverse perspectives. Join Juan in understanding how meditation can significantly improve our lives, foster community, and support ecological well-being.
Learn more about Juan Santoyo
Science & Wisdom LIVE brings meditation practitioners in conversation with scientists to address the problems of contemporary society and come to new possible solutions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Often what we're asking is nothow meditation can change the
brain, but how can meditationimprove our lives. And so often,
this is actually like thereframing of the question is
about it's more more than abrain question. It is a
psychological question. Thetools of clinical psychology, I
think, are actually a little bitmore important here. Learning
how it changes the brain canhelp us. It can help reinforce,
(00:28):
you know, that that we, youknow, justifying that we
integrate this into the medicalsystem. But these questions are
first and foremost clinicalquestions. Does it help? Who
does it help? Under whatconditions does it help them,
and perhaps under which, underwhat conditions of which people,
is meditation going to be thewrong tool? Do they need a
different type of support inthat moment? And so I think this
(00:51):
is, this is the way we need tostart to reframe this question.
I think the idea it has beenthat perhaps if we understood
meditation of the brain fully wecould optimise and personalise
meditation. And I think tooptimise and personalise
meditation, a good meditationteacher is actually the best
(01:13):
tool there, more than knowingthat what the brain what the
meditation does to the brain.
And so I think these are kind ofsome of some of the critical
reflections that have beenhappening. The other point, I
think that has been exciting,and kind of what I think could
be a second wave of research isnow. Research is opening up to
questions of equity, ofecological justice, and again,
(01:34):
grounded in this knowledge thatscience and contemplative
practice is embodied. And just,you know, just because it is
embodied, practice is personal.
And just just as kind of, thefeminist movement has reminded
us that the personal ispolitical, we need to see that
(01:54):
the contemplative two ispolitical. It's fundamentally
political because practicestarts with the body, and our
bodies depend on one another.
The planet is an extension ofour bodies, and the movements in
the social, political spherewill impact this whole personal
and ecological body. And so whatdo we do with this? I think, I
think the type of gatherings wedo like this are important. We
(02:17):
take this time we share theseideas and we try to integrate
this work. We need to buildtogether scholarly and
scientific analyses of thesystems and structures that
drive ecological and personal,social, political harm, and we
need a commitment to to work onthis contemplative practice is
essential here in helping usfeel deeply into the parts of
(02:41):
this that are difficult, theparts of this that bring up
fear, shame, confusion, and itbecomes an excellent grounding
in actually helping science askthe questions of ecological and
of social justice and so and so.
Excitingly, I think it's beencool to see in the last 10 years
(03:01):
that that a lot of the themes inthe field have started to ask
these questions. We started towork on making sure practice is
accessible to different people.
I think across economicbarriers, across racial and
ethnic barriers, there's work tobe done, but there's been kind
of some the last 10 years haveseen very cool initial progress
(03:22):
there, making sure thatmeditation is also engaging with
more diverse perspectives andbringing in different ways of
knowing. And yeah, I think, Ithink just coming back to the
Mind and Life Institutemeetings, it's been cool to see.
I think I just kind of looked upthe meeting topics of the last
10 years, and it was cool to seehow, you know, it went from the
(03:45):
1000s being meditation of thebrain, meditation plasticity to
types of questions of trauma,resilience and flesh and
flourishing, othering, belongingand becoming and the mind human
earth connection and the climatecrisis, I think it highlights
this, this thematic shift thathas been happening in the field,
(04:07):
and it's fundamental. And so I'mkind of a I'm excited. I think
it's important to for us torecognise that this is
happening, so that we can makesure it happens well, and that
we can hold it as well as acommunity. And so I wanted, I
wanted to begin to shift, kindof moving along into my last
(04:27):
five minutes. And I think I'lljust give I want to close out by
just kind of holding this finalquestion of ageing. I thought it
could be an interesting exampleto think about how where the
field has been and where it isnow can come together with
(04:50):
Buddhist and indigenousknowledge in different world
traditions. It's a questionvery. Present for me right now,
my research work has changed,has transitioned into work on
Alzheimer's and work on howearly life stress and chronic
stress over the lifetime end upexacerbating the progression and
(05:11):
incidence rate of Alzheimer'spathology. And so just, you
know, it's it's interesting towe can see, when we look at the
field of research here, it'spurely operating on this third
person, detached basis. And to adegree, that's okay, a lot of
(05:31):
progress is made with that typeof framework. And right now, the
field is making a lot ofprogress identifying that there,
you know, there are fattyproteins that start to
accumulate in the brain thatseem to underlie some of these,
these neurodegenerativediseases, there are proteins
that start to break down, andstart to break down the
(05:51):
integrity of of brain cells, andthat this also contributes and
so starting to identify thesekind of biological processes
gives the field the hope that wecan find medicines, you know,
medicines you take, that canhelp with this. Importantly, at
the same time, though, thelifestyle factors that that
change, Alzheimer's incidentsand progression are also clear
(06:14):
and it's, and there's been,there's also concrete evidence
that it's it's also stress, it'svery much also diet. It's very
much also how we exercise. Andactually one of the most
important lifestyle factors thatcontribute to brain ageing is
our social connectedness.
Isolation in adulthood isactually one of the biggest
(06:37):
predictors of unhealthy brainageing. And I kind of just want
to pause to hold that. You know,this is this is something
personal. And I think ageing isfundamental in contemplative
traditions. Contemplativetraditions, I think start off
with the truth that the truth ofAnita, all is impermanent. And
(07:03):
you know, practice diligently,but all is impermanent. And so
we we know that even our mentalfaculties change over time,
sometimes even just from one dayto another. We know where we can
be more dull or more alert. Butwe also know over time our ways
of thinking, our memory, ourability to regulate, can also
change. And I think this iswhere there's an exciting
(07:28):
convergence that can happen. Ithink the contemplative
traditions can ground us in theagain, this embodied, embedded,
extended side of ageing. It'snot just the proteins changing
in our brain, but it's a wholething we are experiencing. It's
a whole thing that changeswithin our social environments.
(07:48):
And so how can we how can weground in that? I think the
Buddh tradition is an excellentasset here. I think just knowing
that's just starting off withthe data that stress impacts
these processes. We know thatthe calming practices and the
piece that could come withpractice, I think it could. This
(08:12):
research hasn't actually beendone, but it, but it, but I'm
excited to see it be done, andto see if it could actually be
the stress reduction of practicecould help buffer some of those
processes of ageing, but beyondthat, again, the holistic
changes that come with practicebeing embedded in a being
conscious and aware of of all ofthe mental seeds that that
(08:36):
suicide mentioned that end upinfluencing our how We live, how
we eat, how we exercise, how wespend our days. Because I think
this whole lifestyletransformation that comes with
practice, the community, thepresence of sangha all together,
could be a really interesting,excellent buffer to the things
(08:57):
that drive ageing. And so Iframe this more as a question.
This research hasn't been done.
It's where I want to see my workmoving towards, and I'm excited
to see how that comes together.
And finally, this is, this is anexcellent bridge for the work
with indigenous traditions.
There's a lot of excitementabout how Buddhism and science
(09:18):
might converge with indigenouscontemplative traditions
throughout the world. And Ithink the foundations that I
mentioned from this first waveof research actually give us a
fertile ground for now meetingwith other traditions. It was
important that ethical dialoguewas centred from the beginning,
(09:40):
and now we can continue to makesure ethical dialogue is centred
as we engage with othertraditions, we don't prioritise
one way of knowing over theother. We hold them on equal
footing and wheel ourselves tosit, sit patiently and with
acceptance where there might bedisagreement.
This is an excellent foundationfor for this engagement, and we
(10:05):
and we know that the indigenouscontemplative traditions
throughout in the Global South,in the Americas, specifically,
community is centred, connectionis centred. And so out of here,
we have frameworks that centre aview of ourselves as I think
there's a concept precedence ofwe are all ancestors in
(10:26):
training. We are all training tobe each other's ancestors. We
are all working on, you know, weare our own ancestors as well,
and we are all working on thisprocess of ageing together. But
not only that, by our who weare, what we are is inter
interconnected and embedded withthe natural world. We age and
(10:47):
the earth age. You know, thedead die, and we go with them.
And so our, our ageing is notseparate from the Earth's ageing
our, our pains of ageing are notseparate from the pains we feel
in this kind of ecologicalmoment and so and so here,
finding these bridges andfinding how we can hold love for
(11:11):
community, love for Earth as acentral axis of our practice,
feels like it could be reallypotent and exciting medicine,
For for this time and for, forholding together, what it means
to age, what it means to change,what it means to feel our planet
changing with us. You.
Often what we're asking is nothow meditation can change the
brain, but how can meditationimprove our lives. And so often,
this is actually like thereframing of the question is
about it's more more than abrain question. It is a
psychological question. Thetools of clinical psychology, I
think, are actually a little bitmore important here. Learning
how it changes the brain canhelp us. It can help reinforce,
(00:28):
you know, that that we, youknow, justifying that we
integrate this into the medicalsystem. But these questions are
first and foremost clinicalquestions. Does it help? Who
does it help? Under whatconditions does it help them,
and perhaps under which, underwhat conditions of which people,
is meditation going to be thewrong tool? Do they need a
different type of support inthat moment? And so I think this
(00:51):
is, this is the way we need tostart to reframe this question.
I think the idea it has beenthat perhaps if we understood
meditation of the brain fully wecould optimise and personalise
meditation. And I think tooptimise and personalise
meditation, a good meditationteacher is actually the best
(01:13):
tool there, more than knowingthat what the brain what the
meditation does to the brain.
And so I think these are kind ofsome of some of the critical
reflections that have beenhappening. The other point, I
think that has been exciting,and kind of what I think could
be a second wave of research isnow. Research is opening up to
questions of equity, ofecological justice, and again,
(01:34):
grounded in this knowledge thatscience and contemplative
practice is embodied. And just,you know, just because it is
embodied, practice is personal.
And just just as kind of, thefeminist movement has reminded
us that the personal ispolitical, we need to see that
(01:54):
the contemplative two ispolitical. It's fundamentally
political because practicestarts with the body, and our
bodies depend on one another.
The planet is an extension ofour bodies, and the movements in
the social, political spherewill impact this whole personal
and ecological body. And so whatdo we do with this? I think, I
think the type of gatherings wedo like this are important. We
(02:17):
take this time we share theseideas and we try to integrate
this work. We need to buildtogether scholarly and
scientific analyses of thesystems and structures that
drive ecological and personal,social, political harm, and we
need a commitment to to work onthis contemplative practice is
essential here in helping usfeel deeply into the parts of
(02:41):
this that are difficult, theparts of this that bring up
fear, shame, confusion, and itbecomes an excellent grounding
in actually helping science askthe questions of ecological and
of social justice and so and so.
Excitingly, I think it's beencool to see in the last 10 years
(03:01):
that that a lot of the themes inthe field have started to ask
these questions. We started towork on making sure practice is
accessible to different people.
I think across economicbarriers, across racial and
ethnic barriers, there's work tobe done, but there's been kind
of some the last 10 years haveseen very cool initial progress
(03:22):
there, making sure thatmeditation is also engaging with
more diverse perspectives andbringing in different ways of
knowing. And yeah, I think, Ithink just coming back to the
Mind and Life Institutemeetings, it's been cool to see.
I think I just kind of looked upthe meeting topics of the last
10 years, and it was cool to seehow, you know, it went from the
(03:45):
1000s being meditation of thebrain, meditation plasticity to
types of questions of trauma,resilience and flesh and
flourishing, othering, belongingand becoming and the mind human
earth connection and the climatecrisis, I think it highlights
this, this thematic shift thathas been happening in the field,
(04:07):
and it's fundamental. And so I'mkind of a I'm excited. I think
it's important to for us torecognise that this is
happening, so that we can makesure it happens well, and that
we can hold it as well as acommunity. And so I wanted, I
wanted to begin to shift, kindof moving along into my last
(04:27):
five minutes. And I think I'lljust give I want to close out by
just kind of holding this finalquestion of ageing. I thought it
could be an interesting exampleto think about how where the
field has been and where it isnow can come together with
(04:50):
Buddhist and indigenousknowledge in different world
traditions. It's a questionvery. Present for me right now,
my research work has changed,has transitioned into work on
Alzheimer's and work on howearly life stress and chronic
stress over the lifetime end upexacerbating the progression and
(05:11):
incidence rate of Alzheimer'spathology. And so just, you
know, it's it's interesting towe can see, when we look at the
field of research here, it'spurely operating on this third
person, detached basis. And to adegree, that's okay, a lot of
(05:31):
progress is made with that typeof framework. And right now, the
field is making a lot ofprogress identifying that there,
you know, there are fattyproteins that start to
accumulate in the brain thatseem to underlie some of these,
these neurodegenerativediseases, there are proteins
that start to break down, andstart to break down the
(05:51):
integrity of of brain cells, andthat this also contributes and
so starting to identify thesekind of biological processes
gives the field the hope that wecan find medicines, you know,
medicines you take, that canhelp with this. Importantly, at
the same time, though, thelifestyle factors that that
change, Alzheimer's incidentsand progression are also clear
(06:14):
and it's, and there's been,there's also concrete evidence
that it's it's also stress, it'svery much also diet. It's very
much also how we exercise. Andactually one of the most
important lifestyle factors thatcontribute to brain ageing is
our social connectedness.
Isolation in adulthood isactually one of the biggest
(06:37):
predictors of unhealthy brainageing. And I kind of just want
to pause to hold that. You know,this is this is something
personal. And I think ageing isfundamental in contemplative
traditions. Contemplativetraditions, I think start off
with the truth that the truth ofAnita, all is impermanent. And
(07:03):
you know, practice diligently,but all is impermanent. And so
we we know that even our mentalfaculties change over time,
sometimes even just from one dayto another. We know where we can
be more dull or more alert. Butwe also know over time our ways
of thinking, our memory, ourability to regulate, can also
change. And I think this iswhere there's an exciting
(07:28):
convergence that can happen. Ithink the contemplative
traditions can ground us in theagain, this embodied, embedded,
extended side of ageing. It'snot just the proteins changing
in our brain, but it's a wholething we are experiencing. It's
a whole thing that changeswithin our social environments.
(07:48):
And so how can we how can weground in that? I think the
Buddh tradition is an excellentasset here. I think just knowing
that's just starting off withthe data that stress impacts
these processes. We know thatthe calming practices and the
piece that could come withpractice, I think it could. This
(08:12):
research hasn't actually beendone, but it, but it, but I'm
excited to see it be done, andto see if it could actually be
the stress reduction of practicecould help buffer some of those
processes of ageing, but beyondthat, again, the holistic
changes that come with practicebeing embedded in a being
conscious and aware of of all ofthe mental seeds that that
(08:36):
suicide mentioned that end upinfluencing our how We live, how
we eat, how we exercise, how wespend our days. Because I think
this whole lifestyletransformation that comes with
practice, the community, thepresence of sangha all together,
could be a really interesting,excellent buffer to the things
(08:57):
that drive ageing. And so Iframe this more as a question.
This research hasn't been done.
It's where I want to see my workmoving towards, and I'm excited
to see how that comes together.
And finally, this is, this is anexcellent bridge for the work
with indigenous traditions.
There's a lot of excitementabout how Buddhism and science
(09:18):
might converge with indigenouscontemplative traditions
throughout the world. And Ithink the foundations that I
mentioned from this first waveof research actually give us a
fertile ground for now meetingwith other traditions. It was
important that ethical dialoguewas centred from the beginning,
(09:40):
and now we can continue to makesure ethical dialogue is centred
as we engage with othertraditions, we don't prioritise
one way of knowing over theother. We hold them on equal
footing and wheel ourselves tosit, sit patiently and with
acceptance where there might bedisagreement.
This is an excellent foundationfor for this engagement, and we
(10:05):
and we know that the indigenouscontemplative traditions
throughout in the Global South,in the Americas, specifically,
community is centred, connectionis centred. And so out of here,
we have frameworks that centre aview of ourselves as I think
there's a concept precedence ofwe are all ancestors in
(10:26):
training. We are all training tobe each other's ancestors. We
are all working on, you know, weare our own ancestors as well,
and we are all working on thisprocess of ageing together. But
not only that, by our who weare, what we are is inter
interconnected and embedded withthe natural world. We age and
(10:47):
the earth age. You know, thedead die, and we go with them.
And so our, our ageing is notseparate from the Earth's ageing
our, our pains of ageing are notseparate from the pains we feel
in this kind of ecologicalmoment and so and so here,
finding these bridges andfinding how we can hold love for
(11:11):
community, love for Earth as acentral axis of our practice,
feels like it could be reallypotent and exciting medicine,
For for this time and for, forholding together, what it means
to age, what it means to change,what it means to feel our planet
changing with us. You.
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