August 7, 2025 • 50 mins
What happens when Scientology auditing goes wrong? In this revealing conversation, we pull back the curtain on the technical failures that can leave spiritual seekers "broken on the bridge" to higher states.
We distinguish between the "independent field" (which follows standard tech) and the "free zone" (which tends to develop its own processes). Through startling examples, they explain how overrun cases develop when auditors continue processes long past their completion point. One elderly woman endured 14-hour sessions daily when standard protocol recommends short sessions - a misapplication that left her physically ill and spiritually devastated.
The podcast reveals how one auditor mistook floating needles (indicating positive release) for rock slams (indicating evil purposes), resulting in numerous Sea Org members being wrongly assigned to rehabilitation projects when they were actually doing well. Such incorrect indications create significant case upset requiring specialized repair.
Perhaps most intriguing is the discussion of ethics as a fundamental barrier to case progress. Many "stalled or no case gain" situations stem from practitioners being unwilling to confront their own ethical breaches or Potential Trouble Source conditions. Without addressing these ethical factors, technical processes simply cannot produce spiritual advancement.
The hosts also warn against premature declaration of states, excessive sec-checking, and the dangerous practice of searching for confidential upper-level materials online. Their message emphasizes that Scientology works when approached gradually and methodically, following the exact procedures developed through decades of research.
If you've experienced difficulties on your spiritual journey - whether in the Church, the independent field, or through self-auditing - this episode offers hope through proper technical understanding. The hosts extend a heartfelt invitation to reach out for assistance in repairing your case and finding your way forward on the Bridge.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everybody, and welcome to another Scientology
Outside of the Church podcast.
This is Season 11, episode 19,.
And this one is going to beentitled Broken on the Bridge,
and we're not going to giveanything away on that, we'll
just get started on it.
I'm here with Quentin Stroudand arthur mudakis, who is, uh,
(00:27):
been away for a while and is nowin malaysia with quentin.
How are you guys?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
man, I'm fantastic.
Oh good, doing very well goodI'm doing well as well.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So, getting used to this warmer weather, yeah, yeah,
from from the australian winter, I'm sure it's uh, yeah, yeah,
very, very nice to be muchwarmer than it is here in south
africa currently in the southernhemisphere.
So we're gonna.
It's much nicer, yeah, I betwe're gonna get started here and
(00:59):
we're gonna talk about, uh,people in the independent field
slash free zone.
I.
I'm using free zone becauseit's it's a little bit different
to me as a higher class auditorclass 8, class 9.
That free zone tends toconnotate to me people who have
(01:23):
taken standard tech and tend todeviate from it and roll their
own processes and are a littlebit more loosey-goosey than
independent Scientologists.
That's just my take on it.
I don't know how you guys feel,but that's been my observation
and there are an awful lot ofpeople who come to AOGP from the
(01:48):
church, from the free zone,from the internet, from having
bought a meter and played aroundwith it and jumped into their
own case, and it's just thestuff we see and how we fix it.
That's what this is going to beabout.
So being broken on the bridgetends to more often than not be
(02:14):
people are bypass cases.
They've been introduced to theupper levels.
They've been introduced tohigher caliber processes or
rundowns without being set upfor it properly on a gradient,
and boy, some of the thingswe've seen.
So we're going to kind of dothis as sort of a Q and a back
and forth with Quentin andArthur and everything like that.
(02:36):
So, cause, there are things Ijust take for granted as a, as a
class eight, class nine,auditor and CS.
So shoot forth your volley,good sirs.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, I think, I think that what comes up for me
the most is especially comingfrom where I came from over the
years of being a Scientologistis kind of like overrun cases
and cases that it's like it'sgoing over too much.
Is that a thing?
(03:09):
And how does that manifest andwhat's the?
What would we do as an ALGP tokind of address that?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well, what typically overrun is where and the overrun
cases.
Overrun means that a person hasgotten an auditing process or
processes or rundown or grade orOT grade and they've been
overrun on it.
I have seen people who wereaudited on NED for ot's, new ot5
(03:45):
uh, there was a lady inmissouri that I audited for 223
hours who was in her 80s at thetime and this is in 2014 and the
the church used her and herhusband as an ATM and you're
supposed to audit New EraDynamics for OTs in short
(04:08):
sessions Maybe two or three inshort sessions over a period of,
let's say, an eight or ten hourday.
They were taking her in sessionfor 14 hours a day and she was
in her 70s for 14 hours a day.
And she was in her 70s becausethey charged OT-level rates for
(04:29):
the auditing and she was sooverrun on the level that she
developed a horrible, horriblecough and was just miserable as
a Phaeton and I had to go backthrough and clean all of that
stuff up from a PTS standpointand that's how overrun you can
(04:50):
get where you should have gotten.
Well, let's say you should havegotten an hour and a half of
auditing over the course of twoor three sessions in a day, 14
hours, that's how bad it can getin a sense like that.
And then you go to the survivalrundown.
The survival rundown wasn'twritten by LRH and we've talked
(05:12):
about this a few times indifferent podcasts.
The survival rundown wassomething that was developed by
somebody else.
Lrh canceled it in 1978.
David Miscavige and companyresurrected it, made some more
changes to it and bustedeverybody down from OT8 all the
way down to where it's at at thebottom of the bridge and
(05:32):
changed the objectives to thesurvival rundown and run
objectives on it.
I recently had a new PC tell methat they told him he would be
on the objectives for a year.
A new PC told me that they toldhim he would be on the
objectives for a year.
A year, yes, and typically theobjectives take somewhere
between one to three intensives,depending on your drug history
(05:55):
and the state of your case.
Per the 1981 grade chart, itsays it's CS adjudicated, but
it's adjudicated as to what isthe person in present time, how
does their environment respondto them, how they respond to
their environment, that type ofthing.
Can they start, change, stop?
(06:16):
Are they in present time, thattype of a thing?
So two, three intenses, maybe36, 40 hours, hops, averages and
intensive and a half, twointenses.
And they're running this onpeople and overrunning it so
much that people are dying dyingfrom the overrun, because the
(06:40):
objectives really come in with acrunch for people, because the
objectives really come in with acrunch for people and it sends
the body into apathy and theypull in sicknesses and go PTS to
the overrun.
That's how bad that can get.
And what do you do about it?
Well, you have to indicate tothe person right off the bat
(07:01):
when you're doing an interviewwith them or they want to get
auditing no, they don't feelright, they're overrun on this.
I'd like to indicate you wereoverrun because you can see it
on the meter, on the theta meter.
In a remote auditing session,say, I'd like to indicate you
were overrun on the objectivesand they're like yeah, that
feels right.
(07:22):
Right.
So that's something you have todo an objectives repair list on
.
So in doing so, what you'redoing is you're trying to spot
where the person actually went,release on an overrun.
So release is, you know,they've basically departed from
that part of the aberration ofthe case, whether it's
(07:44):
objectives or whether it's gradezero or grade one or grade two
or grade three, grade four, andyou're trying to rehab where it
was that they had that win,where they went released from
that particular topic.
But on the objectives, it keysout, it keys in, it keys out, it
keys in, it keys out, it keysin.
On and on and on for a year ormore.
(08:07):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I had a PC in Washington DC and on the
objectives she would just goboom, she would just crash.
And it would be something assimple as, like you know, just
be there, you know, or you know,touch that wall or you know
whatever, and she would justcrash and it would take her like
(08:33):
maybe 20, 30 minutes to evencome to you know.
Right, and I'm not saying thisto scare anybody, but I'm saying
that if a person has beenoverrun on a process, it's a
very real phenomena and that canbe repaired.
But it has to be done.
It has to be spotted, numberone indicated and then repaired.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So gosh, yeah, yeah, I mean you have to say
something's not right, I don'tfeel right, things are going
wrong.
If you've gotten auditing andthings are going wrong if it's
in the church, if it's in theindependent field, if it's in
the free zone and you're notdoing well, then you need to get
(09:14):
some repair.
A life repair is the generalterm for it, but you need to get
a case repair so you're brokenon the bridge.
Now you know there are lots ofways to overrun, but overrun
means something keyed out andthen it keyed in and then it
keyed out again and you're goingon and on.
So that has to be found andindicated, and it's very common
(09:37):
with auditors who don't knowtheir craft well enough.
Or, as LRH says, the only twoways an auditor can go wrong is
poor metering or poor TRs.
Their communication skills areout.
Now that brings us to falsereads.
How bad can false reads get?
Well, they can get pretty bad.
(09:59):
The best story I have is howsuperpower actually came about,
and this is in the Sea Org,right under LRH's nose.
They did an en masse sort oflooking for people who had evil
purposes, sort of looking forpeople who had evil purposes.
(10:24):
And the guy, the auditor thatwas doing this for these COIG
members, was mistaking an FN,for a rock slam and a floating
needle is when a person is keyedout, a process is done, they're
feeling good about something,and he was mistaking that for a
rock slam, and a rock slam isthis jagged slashing of the
(10:44):
needle back and forth andeverything perelerates.
And in the book, yeah, e-meteressentials.
They are completely different.
It's sort of the differencebetween a sine wave and a
sawtooth wave.
You just you know if you saw iton an oscilloscope,
(11:07):
oscilloscope.
So what happened is is all ofthese people got a wrong
indication and then were busteddown and put into the
rehabilitation project for usbecause practically one for one,
these people were doing welland they were told you've got an
evil purpose.
You're going to go run around atree for 12 hours, you're going
to go painting buildings oryou're going to.
You know this sort of thing.
So false reads can be that'sone form of false read, whereas
(11:29):
you have an auditor that doesn'tknow his stuff and is
mistrained and has misunderstood.
False reads can also be wrongindications, and a wrong
indication is no bueno, becauseif you tell a person one thing
and it means another chances are.
Now you've given them what'scalled an out list.
(11:51):
And an out list is sort of likewhat's your favorite color,
because a listing question is awhat, who or why question per L
or H, and you ask a personwhat's your favorite color?
The question is reading, it hasto per the laws of listing and
nulling and you tell them it'spink and their actual real color
(12:14):
is teal.
So now you've given them awrong indication and that stirs
up a whole hornet's nest.
And now you've got a really bigproblem because they're not
getting the right indicationbecause of a false read.
Now another example and thenyou have to handle that and find
(12:34):
the right item and indicate youknow what the wrong item is and
all that stuff, not necessarilyin that order, but that's what
happens.
The person feels good whenthey're given the correct
indication from a false read ora misunderstood read, whereas a
false read could be.
You could ask a person hey, hasthere been any false reads on
your case?
(12:54):
And if it reads, you find outwhat they are.
You indicate to them on thatparticular thing, it's handled,
and you say, okay, I'd like toindicate that and they feel
better about it.
It's as simple as that.
But there are lots and lots andlots of false reads because
auditors aren't trained properly.
Any questions, any comments,any originations?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, and so I guess my question is is that, if so,
let's say, if a person has hadauditing, wherever it's occurred
, and they've been overrun orthey've hit a false or somebody
improperly read them a falseread with them, how would they
know it?
Like, like, like in their bodyand their mind and their feeling
(13:38):
and their experience, whatoccurs that that person says, oh
my god, that's me, like I needto talk to somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
well, I mean, you know, a false read is a wrong
indication.
A thetan knows and it's likesomebody walks up to you and
goes you don't know them andthey just look at you and go
you're a jerk, that's a wrongindication.
It's the same thing, exceptit's in a session with an
auditor that you trust, so itmight be worse.
And what LRA says is if you dothis enough with a preclear,
(14:10):
they start to distrust the meterand they start to distrust the
auditor and they start todistrust the tech.
Now you have a real problembecause you've thrown the baby
out with the bathwater.
So again, the only problemsthat really can occur in an
auditing session are badmetering and bad TRs or
communication skills with theauditor.
(14:31):
And so a good auditor knows,looking at the PC indicators,
are they good indicators?
Are they bad indicators?
Are they very good indicators?
But sometimes people trustauditors so much that they don't
know that anything's happened.
And then things start to gowonky in life and they don't
feel quite right about that.
And then things start to gowonky in life and they don't
(14:52):
feel quite right about thatsession.
And when these things build upagain, like LRH says, bypass
charge is the sum of the case.
So bypass charge is somethingthat's been re-stimulated but
not handled or not yet handled.
So you develop bypass chargewhen the auditor says you know
(15:14):
you're a jerk, basically throughtelling them about false reads,
so yeah, that's, that's anotherproblem.
Now that brings us to anothertype of falsity, which is
prematurely or declared gradesor the state of clear right.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I've had people false premature, declare so falsely
premature, or declaring somebodylike you got that grade or
you're clear, likecongratulations, like wait what?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
right, exactly, and and it can get so bad that
somebody is, is, is told thatthey're they're, uh, a past life
clear or they're a naturalclear or something like that,
because they don't want to dothe lower end of the end of the
bridge and they don't believe init or whatever which is out
tech.
And so the person is put on theupper levels and falls on their
(16:08):
head and can't do it becausethe, the, the grade chart, the,
the series of levels that you doin independent Scientology
auditing, are very, very small,micro steps, one process at a
time, to allow that person.
You can't climb, you can't jumpfrom the bottom of the stairs
to the top of the stairs and getto the second floor.
(16:29):
That's why there are stairs.
So when this happens, theperson tries to jump and then
falls back to the ground becausethey can't make it and grab
onto the second floor.
That's an out gradient.
Everything operates off ofgradients.
It's an axiom in dynamics andScientology operates off of
(16:51):
gradients.
It's an axiom in Dianetics andScientology.
So when somebody we're going tosay in this sense, prematurely
is declared on a grade or clear,they won't make it because it's
not real to them.
We talked about this in thelast podcast.
Their awareness is not thereyet because we haven't peeled
the onion enough.
We haven't gotten to the centerof the lollipop to get the
(17:13):
caramel center Okay.
So they might chip a tooth orwhatever, and it's going to be
very uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Painful yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, it's very painful.
So, and the other thing is isyou can tell people, hey, you've
done this, I think you've donethis, and then they go no, I
haven't.
They don't feel that they'rethere yet Right.
So that's why you have to makesure that you exhaust all of
these areas of charge on a caseat a particular level and check
(17:45):
every question, check every flow.
Flows are others to you, you toothers, others to others, you
to yourself.
And then, once you've done that, you've exhausted that tiny
little question that LRHdeveloped at some point in his
researches on that subject.
And then you move on to thenext and you systematically do
(18:07):
this to make sure that you'veleft no stone unturned.
And if you have, the personisn't going to have that release
, that ability, they aren'tgoing to be able to handle their
problems or help, like we hadin the success story in the
podcast last week from MX.
And so when that happens,you're giving the PC a lose, a
(18:31):
loss, and this is what happens.
Remember the podcast we didwhere we were talking about
where people didn't get what waspromised.
This is that.
This is that, because they werecut short or they didn't get it
at all in the independent fieldor free zone or something like
(18:52):
that, or they messed around withtheir case and said I don't
need to do all of that, I'm justgoing to jump right on the OT
levels and I'm going to do itmyself.
Good luck, good luck.
And we see that all the time,all the time, because people
want to cut corners or I don'thave the money for this, it's
(19:12):
like, well, you need to startout on a gradient because
otherwise you're going to end upin the soup.
Now that brings us tomiswithholds.
Over it's gone wrong.
And this is a biggie, biggie inthe church, where people are
over, ridiculously over, sect.
(19:33):
Checked, asked for over it'stold they have missed withholds.
Uh, and you know there is sucha thing as a a wrongly assigned
it's it's, it's, it's a.
There's no withhold there sothat's a that works as a wrong
indication as well and it canmake a person feel really,
really bad.
Uh, and if you're you're oversex checked it it.
(19:58):
It reduces your havingnessbecause overts and withholds are
having this.
There is something that thephaeton aberratively has per lrh
and when you get rid of thesethings and you don't run having
this which happens the personkind of feels like a sweater
(20:18):
that's been left in the dryerand was extra large and by the
time that the dryer was done itwouldn't fit their infant.
It shrinks down.
So the person is interiorizedto you know, it's a miswithhold
of nothing.
I didn't do anything butthey're telling me I did.
I've had it happen to myself andthis can cause a lot of
problems for the person becausethey're looking around for
something that isn't there.
(20:39):
They're being told they didsomething that they didn't do
and they're getting sec, checkafter sec, check after sec check
.
Now, the opposite side of that,what we see all the time in the
field is people tend toorganizations and field auditors
and stuff tend to want tooverlook overts and withholds
(21:01):
and kind of avoid that areabecause they themselves were
mishandled on it.
So it becomes sort of a blankspot and overts and withholds
have their value in gettingcleaned up.
It restores a person's abilityto reach and when you overrun
somebody on it or youmisindicate that they need to do
(21:21):
something.
And when I say overrun, you'regetting sec check after sec
check after sec check.
Or you keep drilling you on it.
It's not good and it can causea lot of problems for the person
and make them leave becausethey're being wrongfully accused
.
The church does this a lot.
Now the next one too manyrepair lists, not enough actual
(21:45):
auditing.
This is where LRH on the classeight course in 1968 talks about
you don't want to over repair acase, scientology works so fast
.
He talks about the speed, thevelocity of audit and auditing.
Auditing velocity is fast.
(22:06):
You know this Arthur, arthurwitness did on on his life
repair and it wasn't a lot of,it was just word clearing, you
know.
I mean and the gains that canbe had from that.
When the person has their win,let them have their win, come
back the next day and you cancontinue.
And if their needle's stillfloating and they feel like
(22:26):
they're on cloud nine, okay, seein a couple days.
But you don't have to overrepair somebody.
And this is another thing yousee in the church a lot and in
the independent field is thisrepair list after repair list
type of a thing.
Doesn't, doesn't need to bethat way, because that's a form
of overrun.
You're cleaning the clean.
Can we just get on with theauditing?
(22:47):
Can we just get up the bridge,and that's another thing that
causes a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Let me, do me, let me do me.
Let me get through where I needto get through.
And if there's a problem, weknow how to fix it, we know how
to repair the issue, but don'tjust keep trying to clean and
clean.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Right, right, and it works so fast it doesn't take
much.
So you know a lot of repairlists are, you know, due to a
big win?
Or if there's no big win,finish the list.
But that doesn't mean you haveto do three more lists on
different subjects, it justdepends.
You don't do a repair list onsomething unless you've gotten a
read that indicates in aninterview beforehand on the
(23:26):
meter that says okay, this issomething we need to handle.
You don't just do listswilly-nilly to see what pops up.
You have to have some suspicionbased off of charts that you've
seen in an interview.
Now the next one stalled or nocase gain labels Typically why a
person is stalled or isn'tgetting any case gain.
(23:47):
There's one major reason isn'tgetting any case gain?
There's one major reason and wetalked about this the other day
Ethics, tech and admin.
A lot of stalled or no casegain cases are again addressed
on the class eight coursebecause you have somebody who
isn't making any motion, isn'tgetting anywhere.
But the thing is, is they'restalled or no case gain cases
(24:10):
because they're constantly outethics and they don't see it, or
they don't want to get it in,or they don't see anything wrong
with cheating on their wife orthey're PTS and they can't
handle the person and theyrefuse to do anything about it.
They will not get any case gain.
They will be parked on thebridge.
You see this a lot in the fieldbecause of this unwillingness
(24:32):
to handle ethics.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, and we see it even in the podcast too, because
as soon as we talk about ethics, there's this roof, just a
collapse of listeners, acollapse of people wanting to go
through that conversation, andI just think that it's such an
unfortunate situation because ifyou really look at it, ethics,
(24:58):
tech and understanding what itreally can do for you as a being
, is really really phenomenalstuff.
I really enjoy diving into it alittle bit more.
Actually that when you reallyunderstand what happens to you,
when you start racking up theseovers and withholds and all this
stuff that starts like crushingyou down, you get that free.
(25:18):
You know it's a really, reallysalvific kind of experience,
yeah, and a case will stall orthey will get no case game
because they're not cleaning uptheir ethics.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, and it takes confront.
It takes a level ofresponsibility and if a person
doesn't have a level ofresponsibility and they're not
willing to confront, you knowthat they're probably most
likely, if not 100%, a bypasscase Okay, some earlier step has
been omitted.
A bypass case Okay, someearlier step has been omitted
(25:54):
Grade two, which handles overits own, withholds education on
it before that, to reallyunderstand this stuff.
We see this a lot with peoplewhere the gradient has been
missed and so they're notwilling to look at things
because, well, you know,responsibility is tough to
confront, but without it youcan't get up the bridge.
You can't get up the bridge.
(26:17):
Now that brings us to mentalhealth mislabels like psychotic
breaks and things like that.
That's not something we see alot in the independent field.
You know, misauditing can causethose types of things for a
person and you know, one of theworst ones was with the church
(26:42):
and the Lisa McPherson case onL11.
And they completely mishandledthis girl and she died.
It was a big thing in the press.
She went out into the street,was in a car accident, took all
of her clothes off in public atthe intersection and all of this
and they took her away and puther in the basement of the Fort
Harrison Hotel, because what hadhappened is and what we talked
(27:03):
about earlier really was thecause the psychotic break was
that caused the psychotic breakwas that she had outlists and
she was misprogrammed, mis-casesupervised, mis-audited.
That's how bad it can get andboy it takes a lot to do that.
But that was an extremelyunfortunate and sad example and
(27:27):
the worst case I've ever seen.
Example and the worst case I'veever seen.
And um pierre etha, the, the,the, no longer with us with us.
Class 12, from new market,canada, outside of toronto, has
some wonderful information onhow bad that got, because he was
there at the time audited.
He was not, he was not herauditor, but very much knew what
(27:53):
had happened and why she wasmishandled.
But again, it came down to badmetering and bad TRs, just like
Ellarate says, and these casesupervisors that were
programming this and there was alot of misintervention and
things like that by Miscavige onthis whole thing that led to
this.
And he has no business dealingwith anything having to do with
(28:16):
auditing.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's another podcast well, when I, when I,
when I looked at it from amental health mystic label kind
of space, I was also talkingabout people who in the wild
world, like out in the realworld, kind of getting these
labels of that they have mentalhealth issues.
Sure, like diagnosis I'm talkingabout like diagnosed stuff like
(28:38):
that right and yet it could besomething different, or yet it
could be, you know, a differentway of handling.
So what happens, and especiallyin the independent figure, when
we have somebody that mightcome to us that might be a
previous psych case, like theymight have had psychotic drugs
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, I mean, it depends on how much damage the
drugs have done.
It depends on the wrongindications that have been given
them, which, one for one, whatyou get from that walk of
supposed mental health medicine.
They've been given wrongindications, or, you know,
bipolar.
(29:14):
Bipolar has everything to dowith valences and they don't
know how to handle that sort ofa thing, or borderline
personality disorder.
It's a difficult thing tohandle, I will freely admit it,
because there is so much chargethat's built up there by these
wrong indications.
And then you have the drugs ontop of them.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
On top of it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And the drugs now are different than the drugs were
in the 90s.
The drugs that they were usingin the 90s to handle this stuff
caused these MAOI inhibitorscaused the meter to read
improperly on the PC.
They don't use those anymore,thank God.
They've gone to worse thingsthat screw up the case even more
(30:03):
.
And if somebody has had a lotof these things, we may not be
able to handle some of thoseworse cases because the brain
itself is not functioning theway that it should.
And then you have therestimulation of these drugs on
the person's case which arepretty strong, and it's a lot to
work out.
(30:24):
So it's a case by casesituation.
We try to help people as muchas we can but unfortunately we
do get people who areunsalvageable because of this
stuff in the worst-casescenarios.
So you know long walks,locationals, Like LRH says, some
of the basic case supervisiontechnology is baby steps, light
(30:49):
touch on this sort of a thing.
Get them a purif, get it out oftheir system, give them
Scientology drug rundown.
But you're fighting an upstreambattle because you're dealing
with valence issues and you'vegot to get the drugs out of
their system at the same time,and boy, it can be a mess.
So that's something that wehave to deal with once in a
(31:13):
while and you really have toqualify people and find out
where they've been, what they'vedone that type of a thing,
because to a greater or lesserdegree, they are extremely
broken on the bridge from wrongindications.
Next, lost of trust in theauditor.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
That's a biggie.
Yeah, so I think we recently,recently had that situation
where it's like somebody justhad to, like they kept wanting
to reassure, like getreassurance that my, my
information will be confidential, or like like how somehow their
trust was violated by theirprevious auditor at the church,
yeah, I've heard stories frommultiple pre-clears of auditors
(32:00):
taking information from people'sfolders and turning it over to
the police in the free zone, notthe independent field.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
The church just says you got to go baby Now because
they don't want to touch them.
They're a hot potato and that'snot what LRH intended.
You're supposed to help thatperson, so help becomes betrayal
.
That's not good and thatviolates the auditor's code.
(32:33):
But this is what the Churchdoes.
I mean, I've had one PC who waskicked off of the flag land days
because he took Tylenol.
This was just a couple yearsago.
Because he took Tylenol.
Okay, what, and, and, and, and,and.
(32:54):
People treated him like apariah because he took a Tylenol
.
Are you kidding me?
What?
When?
What's next?
You had a cup of coffee.
If that's the case, allScientologists should be kicked
off the flag land base becauseScientologists drink coffee.
You know 24-7, 365.
I mean, come on Right.
(33:15):
So you know that's not just lossof trust in the auditor, it's
loss of trust in the tech, whichtakes us back to the podcast
where we were talking about notdelivering what's promised.
And it's not just notdelivering what's promised, and
it's not just not deliveringwhat's promised, it's not
following the tech the way thatLRH intended it to do, because
you won't give a person a lossif you follow what he says.
(33:39):
He's a very level-headed guy.
He's very thorough, heexplained things over and over
and over in many, many differentways to make sure people
understood them, and he took thetime to do that over the course
of three and a half decades.
So what's the problem?
And that comes down to thatthey don't understand the
materials and they havemisunderstood words or the
(34:03):
materials have been altered andthey're now not understandable.
This is what causes people tohave a loss of trust in the
auditor.
And again I've said this inother podcasts that LRH says if
you ever have any trouble withthe tech, it's not the tech,
it's the personalities involved.
And that is how you get a lossof trust in the auditor because
(34:26):
it's not being applied correctlyAgain in the auditor, because
it's not being applied correctlyAgain.
Mis-metering, miscommunication,alterations in the tech cause
people to do things that LRHsaid not to do, period.
And that brings us to number 10, suppressed spiritual wins.
You're not there yet.
You're not there yet.
(34:51):
For an example, people havegains or they're a past life
(35:14):
clear, which happens especiallynow, and LRH mentions this in
the Clear Certainty Rundowntechnical bulletins that as time
goes on, we're going to seemore and more people who went
clear in the last lifetimevalidly I want to say validly
went clear in a past lifetimeand then dropped the body, died
and then came back.
And what do you do with them?
Well, the church says well, youhave to do all of these things
and it's going to cost you ahundred grand to do it, and
that's about the average thesedays.
And it's not just the auditing,it's the books, the meters, the
(35:36):
IAS, the this, that, and it'stotally unconfrontable.
So this person who is actuallyclear from a past lifetime, sure
they need some cleanup and itdoesn't take forever, and then
they get their certificate back.
That's the way it was supposedto be.
That's what these auditingrundowns, the clear certainty
rundown, is for.
(35:56):
Before that, the Dianetic Case,special Intensive.
And the church changed theDianetic Case, special Intensive
, dcsi, because it gave too manypeople too many options as to
how they could be clear and theyomitted those and then made the
clear certainty rundown andsupposedly and I'm not saying
(36:18):
that this isn't the case LRH hadsomething to do with the clear
certainty rundown, but we don'treally know.
So there are two options.
But the thing is is you don'ttake a clear and force them to
do everything that they alreadydid unless they need to do it
again.
And that takes a thorough setof interviews, it takes thorough
programming and it usually goespretty quickly.
(36:40):
So then they can get on withtheir quote-unquote lives and
then get on to the OT levels.
That's an example of suppressedspiritual wins.
But a lot of time what you seein the church, especially the
corporate church of Scientology,is no, no, you need to keep
going.
Like we were talking about thesurvival rundown.
The person went release on theobjectives in intensive and a
(37:03):
half, two intensives and they'retold nope, you're going to have
to keep going for another 50weeks.
So this gives the person a loss.
Scientology is supposed to befun.
Scientology is supposed to befreeing.
It's supposed to beemancipating.
You're winning, and you see itin the field with unseasoned,
(37:28):
unwell-trained auditors wherethey don't know what the signs
are that a PC is done and it'seasy to overrun.
I must say, and this is somepart of the problem is, if you
haven't had it, you haven'teducated a preclear well enough.
(37:49):
They just know that they feelgood, but they don't know why
they feel good, and you canoverrun a person because they
don't quite know yet what it isthat just happened.
They can't articulate it.
We were talking about thisbefore we got into the podcast,
that the best success storiesare written by a person who is
educated in the tech to somedegree or is a trained auditor,
(38:11):
because people don't know how tosay it.
And so you get overrun.
But these suppressed spiritualwins happen a lot more so by
accident than on purpose outsideof the church.
More so on purpose in thechurch, because well, if you
mess somebody up now, you haveto charge them for more auditing
(38:32):
to get them to where it is thatthey want to be.
We're going to have to sell youanother gallon of milk.
You can't have the cow.
We're not going to give you thecow, we want to sell you
another gallon of milk.
That's what happens in thechurch.
So the wins get suppressed,they get tromped on, the person
gets a failed purpose ah, thetech doesn't work.
And then they become a criticof Scientology, which there are
(38:53):
a lot of, primarily because ofthis.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That was going to be my next question, right after
this.
Yeah, go ahead.
Well, it's all right.
No, you go ahead Well, becauseI think that you know, for
whatever reason, the peoplelosing confidence in the auditor
, people reading stuff andhaving misunderstood words,
trying to look up certainconfidential materials or clear
(39:21):
cognitions, and da-da-da-dadoing all this stuff to try to,
like you said, shirk the systemor take a shortcut, and what
ends up happening is there's noreal trust, there's no real
awareness of what the techactually can do.
And so what happens, if this isa question for you, what
(39:41):
happens if a PC starts auditingand quits?
What are they supposed to doLike they started but then they
just quit?
Like I can't, I'm not doingthis anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Well it's.
One of these 10 things is thatsomething has been missed,
something has been overlooked bythe auditor.
You know you can also havehidden standard.
A pre-clerk can have a hiddenstandard, whereas their headache
has to go away in order forauditing to work.
We see that a lot when theyhave unreal expectations and
(40:17):
assumptions about auditing andit doesn't work that way.
It works in a very gradient.
Slow thing it doesn't.
And when I say slow I meanrelatively speaking.
Low thing it doesn't.
And when I say slow I meanrelatively speaking, and we've
talked about this in otherpodcasts as well.
You know a year worth oftherapy.
You can get the gains inauditing in two or three
sessions, if not better thanthat so that's exactly what
(40:44):
happened with me.
Yeah, but I mean you know it's.
It's also you know the the.
A well-educated PC, a verywell-educated PC, tends not to
do that and give up because theyunderstand the underlying
information on that.
And we try to educate ourpre-clearers and pre-OTs as best
as possible.
And and you can't assume thatpeople know things you have to
(41:10):
check it when they come from thechurch and I ask them did you
ever receive this hatting action?
Did you ever receive thathatting action?
What's the definition of?
And almost one for one,especially in the last few years
, when they come from thecorporate church, they're not
educated at all.
(41:32):
It blows my mind, because somany corners are cut and they're
trying to, you know, get inthere and get on the cans and
get some wins so we can chargeyou more money.
I mean that's quite literallythe appearance that it has and
that they're being crush regged.
Constantly.
Phone calls, emails come intothe registrar's office.
You know the auditor is askingyou to buy this and all this and
you're not even letting theperson get any wins.
(41:54):
It never becomes more real tothem.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
And that's that's a huge, huge problem.
So you know, beyond that andwe've said this in another
podcast don't go looking at theupper level materials, don't go
looking at the clear cognitiononline or anything.
Don't go looking at clearcognition online or anything
like that, because you're doingyourself such a huge disservice.
So this would be like point 11.
(42:18):
Don't do that, don't, don't,don't, don't, don't.
You owe it to yourself to do itin the correct procedure.
Nine out of 10 people that cometo us have looked at stuff
online and it really makes ourjob a lot harder and it gives
them a loss because they didn'treally make it and LRH didn't
(42:44):
leave handlings for people wholooked at the upper level
materials.
This is something we've had toinstitute ourselves by a process
of elimination on how to handlethis stuff, and it's a very
delicate thing that needs to bedone.
We can handle it and are verysuccessful with it, but there
(43:04):
are so many people that givepeople a pass and say, okay, you
saw this stuff.
Well, I guess we're going toput you on the ot levels and
then they fall on their head andthat's.
You can't let them do that, soyou owe it to yourself to not to
not look at the last episode ofthe sopranos without watching
all the earlier seasons rightthis is what I'm, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I'm trying to say you're not going to enjoy the
show.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You're not right, you're not going to enjoy the
show if you go to chat gpt andinstance.
Give me a rundown of whatbreaking bad is about, uh, in
three paragraphs, because,though, well then, there's no
mystery, and right, what's thepoint in that now?
Now, of course, that's fiction.
This is not fiction.
The stuff that LRH talks aboutis real, it's palpable, and it
(43:55):
has to be approached on agradient.
Without that gradient, you willnot get the fruits of that, and
you owe it to yourself.
Respect yourself, love yourself.
Don't do this.
It's out there, yes, should youlook at it?
(44:17):
Hell, no, because the gainsthat you can get from
Scientology and Dianetics andthe OT levels are heretofore
unseen before it came on thescene, and you can get so very
much out of it.
You can be the richest being onthe planet for you and I don't
mean financially, I meanspiritually you owe it to
yourself to keep your ethics inand not do this because it is
(44:37):
such a common thing these days.
I beseech you as a listenerdon't do it.
Do it the right way, keep yourethics in.
So any questions we have inclosing on this topic of broken
on the bridge.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I think we covered it .
I think that if anyone isfeeling broken on the bridge,
they've started and failedsomewhere or had any of these
phenomena or anything thesethings happen to them, that just
knowing that we have anunderstanding, a thorough
understanding, in fact, of wherethey may be, uh, if they fall
(45:18):
in any of these places, and howto help them.
So I think this is really good.
This is a very, very goodconversation, because I I don't
know if this has ever ever beenreally talked about publicly,
like who wants to go abouttalking about you know, oh, it
didn't work for me and there'swhy, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, and I mean you know it's once.
Once you've been in the tech isas long as we have, and you've
you've seen the gains that arepossible and you've studied it
and you've applied it and you'vedone internships and all this
stuff.
Just like anything else, whenyou really understand something,
it's easy and it's not thismiasma of all this confusion and
(46:01):
everything.
It's really really simple torepair people on things and they
may not know what it is, butthey know that that it is.
Something is wrong and you needto come to us and talk to us
and we'll get you a theta meter,we'll get you in session.
We'll find out what's going onwhere you're broken on the
bridge, where it's.
(46:21):
I've just never been able to geton the bridge.
I haven't been able to progressfrom this point, which would
call for case cracking.
There's something that needs tobe resolved or there's some
sort of ethics situation that'sgoing on and it's all
confrontable.
It's all confrontable with us,with ARC and KRC Affinity,
reality, communication,understanding, knowledge,
(46:42):
responsibility, control, power.
We can help you with this and Isay this at the end of every
podcast we love you.
This is a labor of love that wedo these podcasts.
We understand how scary it isand what case turns on and
everything.
And you want to be happy, youwant to be successful, you want
(47:03):
to flourish and prosper.
You can, you can.
All you have to do is get incommunication and we will help
you and put you on the rightpath so that you can get across
that bridge.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
So for Quentin Arthur kept popping in and popping out
because his internet is veryunstable where he's at in
Malaysia.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, sorry guys.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Get that fixed.
He already was here in spirit,if not in audio, which is okay,
we understand, and there'salways that getting out of
non-existence as to what's goingon with the Wi-Fi, wherever
you're at in this day and ageespecially, yeah do please,
wherever you're at, in this dayand age especially yeah, do
please so for Arthur Quentin andmyself.
(47:52):
Take care, and we'll talk toyou in the next podcast, in the
next day or two.
Namaste, and we love you,bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Peace.
Thanks, carson, bye-bye, thankyou, thank you.
Thanks for watching.
Hi everybody, and welcome to another Scientology
Outside of the Church podcast.
This is Season 11, episode 19,.
And this one is going to beentitled Broken on the Bridge,
and we're not going to giveanything away on that, we'll
just get started on it.
I'm here with Quentin Stroudand arthur mudakis, who is, uh,
(00:27):
been away for a while and is nowin malaysia with quentin.
How are you guys?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
man, I'm fantastic.
Oh good, doing very well goodI'm doing well as well.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So, getting used to this warmer weather, yeah, yeah,
from from the australian winter, I'm sure it's uh, yeah, yeah,
very, very nice to be muchwarmer than it is here in south
africa currently in the southernhemisphere.
So we're gonna.
It's much nicer, yeah, I betwe're gonna get started here and
(00:59):
we're gonna talk about, uh,people in the independent field
slash free zone.
I.
I'm using free zone becauseit's it's a little bit different
to me as a higher class auditorclass 8, class 9.
That free zone tends toconnotate to me people who have
(01:23):
taken standard tech and tend todeviate from it and roll their
own processes and are a littlebit more loosey-goosey than
independent Scientologists.
That's just my take on it.
I don't know how you guys feel,but that's been my observation
and there are an awful lot ofpeople who come to AOGP from the
(01:48):
church, from the free zone,from the internet, from having
bought a meter and played aroundwith it and jumped into their
own case, and it's just thestuff we see and how we fix it.
That's what this is going to beabout.
So being broken on the bridgetends to more often than not be
(02:14):
people are bypass cases.
They've been introduced to theupper levels.
They've been introduced tohigher caliber processes or
rundowns without being set upfor it properly on a gradient,
and boy, some of the thingswe've seen.
So we're going to kind of dothis as sort of a Q and a back
and forth with Quentin andArthur and everything like that.
(02:36):
So, cause, there are things Ijust take for granted as a, as a
class eight, class nine,auditor and CS.
So shoot forth your volley,good sirs.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, I think, I think that what comes up for me
the most is especially comingfrom where I came from over the
years of being a Scientologistis kind of like overrun cases
and cases that it's like it'sgoing over too much.
Is that a thing?
(03:09):
And how does that manifest andwhat's the?
What would we do as an ALGP tokind of address that?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well, what typically overrun is where and the overrun
cases.
Overrun means that a person hasgotten an auditing process or
processes or rundown or grade orOT grade and they've been
overrun on it.
I have seen people who wereaudited on NED for ot's, new ot5
(03:45):
uh, there was a lady inmissouri that I audited for 223
hours who was in her 80s at thetime and this is in 2014 and the
the church used her and herhusband as an ATM and you're
supposed to audit New EraDynamics for OTs in short
(04:08):
sessions Maybe two or three inshort sessions over a period of,
let's say, an eight or ten hourday.
They were taking her in sessionfor 14 hours a day and she was
in her 70s for 14 hours a day.
And she was in her 70s becausethey charged OT-level rates for
(04:29):
the auditing and she was sooverrun on the level that she
developed a horrible, horriblecough and was just miserable as
a Phaeton and I had to go backthrough and clean all of that
stuff up from a PTS standpointand that's how overrun you can
(04:50):
get where you should have gotten.
Well, let's say you should havegotten an hour and a half of
auditing over the course of twoor three sessions in a day, 14
hours, that's how bad it can getin a sense like that.
And then you go to the survivalrundown.
The survival rundown wasn'twritten by LRH and we've talked
(05:12):
about this a few times indifferent podcasts.
The survival rundown wassomething that was developed by
somebody else.
Lrh canceled it in 1978.
David Miscavige and companyresurrected it, made some more
changes to it and bustedeverybody down from OT8 all the
way down to where it's at at thebottom of the bridge and
(05:32):
changed the objectives to thesurvival rundown and run
objectives on it.
I recently had a new PC tell methat they told him he would be
on the objectives for a year.
A new PC told me that they toldhim he would be on the
objectives for a year.
A year, yes, and typically theobjectives take somewhere
between one to three intensives,depending on your drug history
(05:55):
and the state of your case.
Per the 1981 grade chart, itsays it's CS adjudicated, but
it's adjudicated as to what isthe person in present time, how
does their environment respondto them, how they respond to
their environment, that type ofthing.
Can they start, change, stop?
(06:16):
Are they in present time, thattype of a thing?
So two, three intenses, maybe36, 40 hours, hops, averages and
intensive and a half, twointenses.
And they're running this onpeople and overrunning it so
much that people are dying dyingfrom the overrun, because the
(06:40):
objectives really come in with acrunch for people, because the
objectives really come in with acrunch for people and it sends
the body into apathy and theypull in sicknesses and go PTS to
the overrun.
That's how bad that can get.
And what do you do about it?
Well, you have to indicate tothe person right off the bat
(07:01):
when you're doing an interviewwith them or they want to get
auditing no, they don't feelright, they're overrun on this.
I'd like to indicate you wereoverrun because you can see it
on the meter, on the theta meter.
In a remote auditing session,say, I'd like to indicate you
were overrun on the objectivesand they're like yeah, that
feels right.
(07:22):
Right.
So that's something you have todo an objectives repair list on
.
So in doing so, what you'redoing is you're trying to spot
where the person actually went,release on an overrun.
So release is, you know,they've basically departed from
that part of the aberration ofthe case, whether it's
(07:44):
objectives or whether it's gradezero or grade one or grade two
or grade three, grade four, andyou're trying to rehab where it
was that they had that win,where they went released from
that particular topic.
But on the objectives, it keysout, it keys in, it keys out, it
keys in, it keys out, it keysin.
On and on and on for a year ormore.
(08:07):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I had a PC in Washington DC and on the
objectives she would just goboom, she would just crash.
And it would be something assimple as, like you know, just
be there, you know, or you know,touch that wall or you know
whatever, and she would justcrash and it would take her like
(08:33):
maybe 20, 30 minutes to evencome to you know.
Right, and I'm not saying thisto scare anybody, but I'm saying
that if a person has beenoverrun on a process, it's a
very real phenomena and that canbe repaired.
But it has to be done.
It has to be spotted, numberone indicated and then repaired.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
So gosh, yeah, yeah, I mean you have to say
something's not right, I don'tfeel right, things are going
wrong.
If you've gotten auditing andthings are going wrong if it's
in the church, if it's in theindependent field, if it's in
the free zone and you're notdoing well, then you need to get
(09:14):
some repair.
A life repair is the generalterm for it, but you need to get
a case repair so you're brokenon the bridge.
Now you know there are lots ofways to overrun, but overrun
means something keyed out andthen it keyed in and then it
keyed out again and you're goingon and on.
So that has to be found andindicated, and it's very common
(09:37):
with auditors who don't knowtheir craft well enough.
Or, as LRH says, the only twoways an auditor can go wrong is
poor metering or poor TRs.
Their communication skills areout.
Now that brings us to falsereads.
How bad can false reads get?
Well, they can get pretty bad.
(09:59):
The best story I have is howsuperpower actually came about,
and this is in the Sea Org,right under LRH's nose.
They did an en masse sort oflooking for people who had evil
purposes, sort of looking forpeople who had evil purposes.
(10:24):
And the guy, the auditor thatwas doing this for these COIG
members, was mistaking an FN,for a rock slam and a floating
needle is when a person is keyedout, a process is done, they're
feeling good about something,and he was mistaking that for a
rock slam, and a rock slam isthis jagged slashing of the
(10:44):
needle back and forth andeverything perelerates.
And in the book, yeah, e-meteressentials.
They are completely different.
It's sort of the differencebetween a sine wave and a
sawtooth wave.
You just you know if you saw iton an oscilloscope,
(11:07):
oscilloscope.
So what happened is is all ofthese people got a wrong
indication and then were busteddown and put into the
rehabilitation project for usbecause practically one for one,
these people were doing welland they were told you've got an
evil purpose.
You're going to go run around atree for 12 hours, you're going
to go painting buildings oryou're going to.
You know this sort of thing.
So false reads can be that'sone form of false read, whereas
(11:29):
you have an auditor that doesn'tknow his stuff and is
mistrained and has misunderstood.
False reads can also be wrongindications, and a wrong
indication is no bueno, becauseif you tell a person one thing
and it means another chances are.
Now you've given them what'scalled an out list.
(11:51):
And an out list is sort of likewhat's your favorite color,
because a listing question is awhat, who or why question per L
or H, and you ask a personwhat's your favorite color?
The question is reading, it hasto per the laws of listing and
nulling and you tell them it'spink and their actual real color
(12:14):
is teal.
So now you've given them awrong indication and that stirs
up a whole hornet's nest.
And now you've got a really bigproblem because they're not
getting the right indicationbecause of a false read.
Now another example and thenyou have to handle that and find
(12:34):
the right item and indicate youknow what the wrong item is and
all that stuff, not necessarilyin that order, but that's what
happens.
The person feels good whenthey're given the correct
indication from a false read ora misunderstood read, whereas a
false read could be.
You could ask a person hey, hasthere been any false reads on
your case?
(12:54):
And if it reads, you find outwhat they are.
You indicate to them on thatparticular thing, it's handled,
and you say, okay, I'd like toindicate that and they feel
better about it.
It's as simple as that.
But there are lots and lots andlots of false reads because
auditors aren't trained properly.
Any questions, any comments,any originations?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, and so I guess my question is is that, if so,
let's say, if a person has hadauditing, wherever it's occurred
, and they've been overrun orthey've hit a false or somebody
improperly read them a falseread with them, how would they
know it?
Like, like, like in their bodyand their mind and their feeling
(13:38):
and their experience, whatoccurs that that person says, oh
my god, that's me, like I needto talk to somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
well, I mean, you know, a false read is a wrong
indication.
A thetan knows and it's likesomebody walks up to you and
goes you don't know them andthey just look at you and go
you're a jerk, that's a wrongindication.
It's the same thing, exceptit's in a session with an
auditor that you trust, so itmight be worse.
And what LRA says is if you dothis enough with a preclear,
(14:10):
they start to distrust the meterand they start to distrust the
auditor and they start todistrust the tech.
Now you have a real problembecause you've thrown the baby
out with the bathwater.
So again, the only problemsthat really can occur in an
auditing session are badmetering and bad TRs or
communication skills with theauditor.
(14:31):
And so a good auditor knows,looking at the PC indicators,
are they good indicators?
Are they bad indicators?
Are they very good indicators?
But sometimes people trustauditors so much that they don't
know that anything's happened.
And then things start to gowonky in life and they don't
feel quite right about that.
And then things start to gowonky in life and they don't
(14:52):
feel quite right about thatsession.
And when these things build upagain, like LRH says, bypass
charge is the sum of the case.
So bypass charge is somethingthat's been re-stimulated but
not handled or not yet handled.
So you develop bypass chargewhen the auditor says you know
(15:14):
you're a jerk, basically throughtelling them about false reads,
so yeah, that's, that's anotherproblem.
Now that brings us to anothertype of falsity, which is
prematurely or declared gradesor the state of clear right.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I've had people false premature, declare so falsely
premature, or declaring somebodylike you got that grade or
you're clear, likecongratulations, like wait what?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
right, exactly, and and it can get so bad that
somebody is, is, is told thatthey're they're, uh, a past life
clear or they're a naturalclear or something like that,
because they don't want to dothe lower end of the end of the
bridge and they don't believe init or whatever which is out
tech.
And so the person is put on theupper levels and falls on their
(16:08):
head and can't do it becausethe, the, the grade chart, the,
the series of levels that you doin independent Scientology
auditing, are very, very small,micro steps, one process at a
time, to allow that person.
You can't climb, you can't jumpfrom the bottom of the stairs
to the top of the stairs and getto the second floor.
(16:29):
That's why there are stairs.
So when this happens, theperson tries to jump and then
falls back to the ground becausethey can't make it and grab
onto the second floor.
That's an out gradient.
Everything operates off ofgradients.
It's an axiom in dynamics andScientology operates off of
(16:51):
gradients.
It's an axiom in Dianetics andScientology.
So when somebody we're going tosay in this sense, prematurely
is declared on a grade or clear,they won't make it because it's
not real to them.
We talked about this in thelast podcast.
Their awareness is not thereyet because we haven't peeled
the onion enough.
We haven't gotten to the centerof the lollipop to get the
(17:13):
caramel center Okay.
So they might chip a tooth orwhatever, and it's going to be
very uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Painful yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yeah, it's very painful.
So, and the other thing is isyou can tell people, hey, you've
done this, I think you've donethis, and then they go no, I
haven't.
They don't feel that they'rethere yet Right.
So that's why you have to makesure that you exhaust all of
these areas of charge on a caseat a particular level and check
(17:45):
every question, check every flow.
Flows are others to you, you toothers, others to others, you
to yourself.
And then, once you've done that, you've exhausted that tiny
little question that LRHdeveloped at some point in his
researches on that subject.
And then you move on to thenext and you systematically do
(18:07):
this to make sure that you'veleft no stone unturned.
And if you have, the personisn't going to have that release
, that ability, they aren'tgoing to be able to handle their
problems or help, like we hadin the success story in the
podcast last week from MX.
And so when that happens,you're giving the PC a lose, a
(18:31):
loss, and this is what happens.
Remember the podcast we didwhere we were talking about
where people didn't get what waspromised.
This is that.
This is that, because they werecut short or they didn't get it
at all in the independent fieldor free zone or something like
(18:52):
that, or they messed around withtheir case and said I don't
need to do all of that, I'm justgoing to jump right on the OT
levels and I'm going to do itmyself.
Good luck, good luck.
And we see that all the time,all the time, because people
want to cut corners or I don'thave the money for this, it's
(19:12):
like, well, you need to startout on a gradient because
otherwise you're going to end upin the soup.
Now that brings us tomiswithholds.
Over it's gone wrong.
And this is a biggie, biggie inthe church, where people are
over, ridiculously over, sect.
(19:33):
Checked, asked for over it'stold they have missed withholds.
Uh, and you know there is sucha thing as a a wrongly assigned
it's it's, it's, it's a.
There's no withhold there sothat's a that works as a wrong
indication as well and it canmake a person feel really,
really bad.
Uh, and if you're you're oversex checked it it.
(19:58):
It reduces your havingnessbecause overts and withholds are
having this.
There is something that thephaeton aberratively has per lrh
and when you get rid of thesethings and you don't run having
this which happens the personkind of feels like a sweater
(20:18):
that's been left in the dryerand was extra large and by the
time that the dryer was done itwouldn't fit their infant.
It shrinks down.
So the person is interiorizedto you know, it's a miswithhold
of nothing.
I didn't do anything butthey're telling me I did.
I've had it happen to myself andthis can cause a lot of
problems for the person becausethey're looking around for
something that isn't there.
(20:39):
They're being told they didsomething that they didn't do
and they're getting sec, checkafter sec, check after sec check
.
Now, the opposite side of that,what we see all the time in the
field is people tend toorganizations and field auditors
and stuff tend to want tooverlook overts and withholds
(21:01):
and kind of avoid that areabecause they themselves were
mishandled on it.
So it becomes sort of a blankspot and overts and withholds
have their value in gettingcleaned up.
It restores a person's abilityto reach and when you overrun
somebody on it or youmisindicate that they need to do
(21:21):
something.
And when I say overrun, you'regetting sec check after sec
check after sec check.
Or you keep drilling you on it.
It's not good and it can causea lot of problems for the person
and make them leave becausethey're being wrongfully accused
.
The church does this a lot.
Now the next one too manyrepair lists, not enough actual
(21:45):
auditing.
This is where LRH on the classeight course in 1968 talks about
you don't want to over repair acase, scientology works so fast
.
He talks about the speed, thevelocity of audit and auditing.
Auditing velocity is fast.
(22:06):
You know this Arthur, arthurwitness did on on his life
repair and it wasn't a lot of,it was just word clearing, you
know.
I mean and the gains that canbe had from that.
When the person has their win,let them have their win, come
back the next day and you cancontinue.
And if their needle's stillfloating and they feel like
(22:26):
they're on cloud nine, okay, seein a couple days.
But you don't have to overrepair somebody.
And this is another thing yousee in the church a lot and in
the independent field is thisrepair list after repair list
type of a thing.
Doesn't, doesn't need to bethat way, because that's a form
of overrun.
You're cleaning the clean.
Can we just get on with theauditing?
(22:47):
Can we just get up the bridge,and that's another thing that
causes a lot of trouble.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Let me, do me, let me do me.
Let me get through where I needto get through.
And if there's a problem, weknow how to fix it, we know how
to repair the issue, but don'tjust keep trying to clean and
clean.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Right, right, and it works so fast it doesn't take
much.
So you know a lot of repairlists are, you know, due to a
big win?
Or if there's no big win,finish the list.
But that doesn't mean you haveto do three more lists on
different subjects, it justdepends.
You don't do a repair list onsomething unless you've gotten a
read that indicates in aninterview beforehand on the
(23:26):
meter that says okay, this issomething we need to handle.
You don't just do listswilly-nilly to see what pops up.
You have to have some suspicionbased off of charts that you've
seen in an interview.
Now the next one stalled or nocase gain labels Typically why a
person is stalled or isn'tgetting any case gain.
(23:47):
There's one major reason isn'tgetting any case gain?
There's one major reason and wetalked about this the other day
Ethics, tech and admin.
A lot of stalled or no casegain cases are again addressed
on the class eight coursebecause you have somebody who
isn't making any motion, isn'tgetting anywhere.
But the thing is, is they'restalled or no case gain cases
(24:10):
because they're constantly outethics and they don't see it, or
they don't want to get it in,or they don't see anything wrong
with cheating on their wife orthey're PTS and they can't
handle the person and theyrefuse to do anything about it.
They will not get any case gain.
They will be parked on thebridge.
You see this a lot in the fieldbecause of this unwillingness
(24:32):
to handle ethics.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, and we see it even in the podcast too, because
as soon as we talk about ethics, there's this roof, just a
collapse of listeners, acollapse of people wanting to go
through that conversation, andI just think that it's such an
unfortunate situation because ifyou really look at it, ethics,
(24:58):
tech and understanding what itreally can do for you as a being
, is really really phenomenalstuff.
I really enjoy diving into it alittle bit more.
Actually that when you reallyunderstand what happens to you,
when you start racking up theseovers and withholds and all this
stuff that starts like crushingyou down, you get that free.
(25:18):
You know it's a really, reallysalvific kind of experience,
yeah, and a case will stall orthey will get no case game
because they're not cleaning uptheir ethics.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, and it takes confront.
It takes a level ofresponsibility and if a person
doesn't have a level ofresponsibility and they're not
willing to confront, you knowthat they're probably most
likely, if not 100%, a bypasscase Okay, some earlier step has
been omitted.
A bypass case Okay, someearlier step has been omitted
(25:54):
Grade two, which handles overits own, withholds education on
it before that, to reallyunderstand this stuff.
We see this a lot with peoplewhere the gradient has been
missed and so they're notwilling to look at things
because, well, you know,responsibility is tough to
confront, but without it youcan't get up the bridge.
You can't get up the bridge.
(26:17):
Now that brings us to mentalhealth mislabels like psychotic
breaks and things like that.
That's not something we see alot in the independent field.
You know, misauditing can causethose types of things for a
person and you know, one of theworst ones was with the church
(26:42):
and the Lisa McPherson case onL11.
And they completely mishandledthis girl and she died.
It was a big thing in the press.
She went out into the street,was in a car accident, took all
of her clothes off in public atthe intersection and all of this
and they took her away and puther in the basement of the Fort
Harrison Hotel, because what hadhappened is and what we talked
(27:03):
about earlier really was thecause the psychotic break was
that caused the psychotic breakwas that she had outlists and
she was misprogrammed, mis-casesupervised, mis-audited.
That's how bad it can get andboy it takes a lot to do that.
But that was an extremelyunfortunate and sad example and
(27:27):
the worst case I've ever seen.
Example and the worst case I'veever seen.
And um pierre etha, the, the,the, no longer with us with us.
Class 12, from new market,canada, outside of toronto, has
some wonderful information onhow bad that got, because he was
there at the time audited.
He was not, he was not herauditor, but very much knew what
(27:53):
had happened and why she wasmishandled.
But again, it came down to badmetering and bad TRs, just like
Ellarate says, and these casesupervisors that were
programming this and there was alot of misintervention and
things like that by Miscavige onthis whole thing that led to
this.
And he has no business dealingwith anything having to do with
(28:16):
auditing.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's another podcast well, when I, when I,
when I looked at it from amental health mystic label kind
of space, I was also talkingabout people who in the wild
world, like out in the realworld, kind of getting these
labels of that they have mentalhealth issues.
Sure, like diagnosis I'm talkingabout like diagnosed stuff like
(28:38):
that right and yet it could besomething different, or yet it
could be, you know, a differentway of handling.
So what happens, and especiallyin the independent figure, when
we have somebody that mightcome to us that might be a
previous psych case, like theymight have had psychotic drugs
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, I mean, it depends on how much damage the
drugs have done.
It depends on the wrongindications that have been given
them, which, one for one, whatyou get from that walk of
supposed mental health medicine.
They've been given wrongindications, or, you know,
bipolar.
(29:14):
Bipolar has everything to dowith valences and they don't
know how to handle that sort ofa thing, or borderline
personality disorder.
It's a difficult thing tohandle, I will freely admit it,
because there is so much chargethat's built up there by these
wrong indications.
And then you have the drugs ontop of them.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
On top of it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And the drugs now are different than the drugs were
in the 90s.
The drugs that they were usingin the 90s to handle this stuff
caused these MAOI inhibitorscaused the meter to read
improperly on the PC.
They don't use those anymore,thank God.
They've gone to worse thingsthat screw up the case even more
(30:03):
.
And if somebody has had a lotof these things, we may not be
able to handle some of thoseworse cases because the brain
itself is not functioning theway that it should.
And then you have therestimulation of these drugs on
the person's case which arepretty strong, and it's a lot to
work out.
(30:24):
So it's a case by casesituation.
We try to help people as muchas we can but unfortunately we
do get people who areunsalvageable because of this
stuff in the worst-casescenarios.
So you know long walks,locationals, Like LRH says, some
of the basic case supervisiontechnology is baby steps, light
(30:49):
touch on this sort of a thing.
Get them a purif, get it out oftheir system, give them
Scientology drug rundown.
But you're fighting an upstreambattle because you're dealing
with valence issues and you'vegot to get the drugs out of
their system at the same time,and boy, it can be a mess.
So that's something that wehave to deal with once in a
(31:13):
while and you really have toqualify people and find out
where they've been, what they'vedone that type of a thing,
because to a greater or lesserdegree, they are extremely
broken on the bridge from wrongindications.
Next, lost of trust in theauditor.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
That's a biggie.
Yeah, so I think we recently,recently had that situation
where it's like somebody justhad to, like they kept wanting
to reassure, like getreassurance that my, my
information will be confidential, or like like how somehow their
trust was violated by theirprevious auditor at the church,
yeah, I've heard stories frommultiple pre-clears of auditors
(32:00):
taking information from people'sfolders and turning it over to
the police in the free zone, notthe independent field.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
The church just says you got to go baby Now because
they don't want to touch them.
They're a hot potato and that'snot what LRH intended.
You're supposed to help thatperson, so help becomes betrayal
.
That's not good and thatviolates the auditor's code.
(32:33):
But this is what the Churchdoes.
I mean, I've had one PC who waskicked off of the flag land days
because he took Tylenol.
This was just a couple yearsago.
Because he took Tylenol.
Okay, what, and, and, and, and,and.
(32:54):
People treated him like apariah because he took a Tylenol
.
Are you kidding me?
What?
When?
What's next?
You had a cup of coffee.
If that's the case, allScientologists should be kicked
off the flag land base becauseScientologists drink coffee.
You know 24-7, 365.
I mean, come on Right.
(33:15):
So you know that's not just lossof trust in the auditor, it's
loss of trust in the tech, whichtakes us back to the podcast
where we were talking about notdelivering what's promised.
And it's not just notdelivering what's promised, and
it's not just not deliveringwhat's promised, it's not
following the tech the way thatLRH intended it to do, because
you won't give a person a lossif you follow what he says.
(33:39):
He's a very level-headed guy.
He's very thorough, heexplained things over and over
and over in many, many differentways to make sure people
understood them, and he took thetime to do that over the course
of three and a half decades.
So what's the problem?
And that comes down to thatthey don't understand the
materials and they havemisunderstood words or the
(34:03):
materials have been altered andthey're now not understandable.
This is what causes people tohave a loss of trust in the
auditor.
And again I've said this inother podcasts that LRH says if
you ever have any trouble withthe tech, it's not the tech,
it's the personalities involved.
And that is how you get a lossof trust in the auditor because
(34:26):
it's not being applied correctlyAgain in the auditor, because
it's not being applied correctlyAgain.
Mis-metering, miscommunication,alterations in the tech cause
people to do things that LRHsaid not to do, period.
And that brings us to number 10, suppressed spiritual wins.
You're not there yet.
You're not there yet.
(34:51):
For an example, people havegains or they're a past life
(35:14):
clear, which happens especiallynow, and LRH mentions this in
the Clear Certainty Rundowntechnical bulletins that as time
goes on, we're going to seemore and more people who went
clear in the last lifetimevalidly I want to say validly
went clear in a past lifetimeand then dropped the body, died
and then came back.
And what do you do with them?
Well, the church says well, youhave to do all of these things
and it's going to cost you ahundred grand to do it, and
that's about the average thesedays.
And it's not just the auditing,it's the books, the meters, the
(35:36):
IAS, the this, that, and it'stotally unconfrontable.
So this person who is actuallyclear from a past lifetime, sure
they need some cleanup and itdoesn't take forever, and then
they get their certificate back.
That's the way it was supposedto be.
That's what these auditingrundowns, the clear certainty
rundown, is for.
(35:56):
Before that, the Dianetic Case,special Intensive.
And the church changed theDianetic Case, special Intensive
, dcsi, because it gave too manypeople too many options as to
how they could be clear and theyomitted those and then made the
clear certainty rundown andsupposedly and I'm not saying
(36:18):
that this isn't the case LRH hadsomething to do with the clear
certainty rundown, but we don'treally know.
So there are two options.
But the thing is is you don'ttake a clear and force them to
do everything that they alreadydid unless they need to do it
again.
And that takes a thorough setof interviews, it takes thorough
programming and it usually goespretty quickly.
(36:40):
So then they can get on withtheir quote-unquote lives and
then get on to the OT levels.
That's an example of suppressedspiritual wins.
But a lot of time what you seein the church, especially the
corporate church of Scientology,is no, no, you need to keep
going.
Like we were talking about thesurvival rundown.
The person went release on theobjectives in intensive and a
(37:03):
half, two intensives and they'retold nope, you're going to have
to keep going for another 50weeks.
So this gives the person a loss.
Scientology is supposed to befun.
Scientology is supposed to befreeing.
It's supposed to beemancipating.
You're winning, and you see itin the field with unseasoned,
(37:28):
unwell-trained auditors wherethey don't know what the signs
are that a PC is done and it'seasy to overrun.
I must say, and this is somepart of the problem is, if you
haven't had it, you haven'teducated a preclear well enough.
(37:49):
They just know that they feelgood, but they don't know why
they feel good, and you canoverrun a person because they
don't quite know yet what it isthat just happened.
They can't articulate it.
We were talking about thisbefore we got into the podcast,
that the best success storiesare written by a person who is
educated in the tech to somedegree or is a trained auditor,
(38:11):
because people don't know how tosay it.
And so you get overrun.
But these suppressed spiritualwins happen a lot more so by
accident than on purpose outsideof the church.
More so on purpose in thechurch, because well, if you
mess somebody up now, you haveto charge them for more auditing
(38:32):
to get them to where it is thatthey want to be.
We're going to have to sell youanother gallon of milk.
You can't have the cow.
We're not going to give you thecow, we want to sell you
another gallon of milk.
That's what happens in thechurch.
So the wins get suppressed,they get tromped on, the person
gets a failed purpose ah, thetech doesn't work.
And then they become a criticof Scientology, which there are
(38:53):
a lot of, primarily because ofthis.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
That was going to be my next question, right after
this.
Yeah, go ahead.
Well, it's all right.
No, you go ahead Well, becauseI think that you know, for
whatever reason, the peoplelosing confidence in the auditor
, people reading stuff andhaving misunderstood words,
trying to look up certainconfidential materials or clear
(39:21):
cognitions, and da-da-da-dadoing all this stuff to try to,
like you said, shirk the systemor take a shortcut, and what
ends up happening is there's noreal trust, there's no real
awareness of what the techactually can do.
And so what happens, if this isa question for you, what
(39:41):
happens if a PC starts auditingand quits?
What are they supposed to doLike they started but then they
just quit?
Like I can't, I'm not doingthis anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Well it's.
One of these 10 things is thatsomething has been missed,
something has been overlooked bythe auditor.
You know you can also havehidden standard.
A pre-clerk can have a hiddenstandard, whereas their headache
has to go away in order forauditing to work.
We see that a lot when theyhave unreal expectations and
(40:17):
assumptions about auditing andit doesn't work that way.
It works in a very gradient.
Slow thing it doesn't.
And when I say slow I meanrelatively speaking.
Low thing it doesn't.
And when I say slow I meanrelatively speaking, and we've
talked about this in otherpodcasts as well.
You know a year worth oftherapy.
You can get the gains inauditing in two or three
sessions, if not better thanthat so that's exactly what
(40:44):
happened with me.
Yeah, but I mean you know it's.
It's also you know the the.
A well-educated PC, a verywell-educated PC, tends not to
do that and give up because theyunderstand the underlying
information on that.
And we try to educate ourpre-clearers and pre-OTs as best
as possible.
And and you can't assume thatpeople know things you have to
(41:10):
check it when they come from thechurch and I ask them did you
ever receive this hatting action?
Did you ever receive thathatting action?
What's the definition of?
And almost one for one,especially in the last few years
, when they come from thecorporate church, they're not
educated at all.
(41:32):
It blows my mind, because somany corners are cut and they're
trying to, you know, get inthere and get on the cans and
get some wins so we can chargeyou more money.
I mean that's quite literallythe appearance that it has and
that they're being crush regged.
Constantly.
Phone calls, emails come intothe registrar's office.
You know the auditor is askingyou to buy this and all this and
you're not even letting theperson get any wins.
(41:54):
It never becomes more real tothem.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
And that's that's a huge, huge problem.
So you know, beyond that andwe've said this in another
podcast don't go looking at theupper level materials, don't go
looking at the clear cognitiononline or anything.
Don't go looking at clearcognition online or anything
like that, because you're doingyourself such a huge disservice.
So this would be like point 11.
(42:18):
Don't do that, don't, don't,don't, don't, don't.
You owe it to yourself to do itin the correct procedure.
Nine out of 10 people that cometo us have looked at stuff
online and it really makes ourjob a lot harder and it gives
them a loss because they didn'treally make it and LRH didn't
(42:44):
leave handlings for people wholooked at the upper level
materials.
This is something we've had toinstitute ourselves by a process
of elimination on how to handlethis stuff, and it's a very
delicate thing that needs to bedone.
We can handle it and are verysuccessful with it, but there
(43:04):
are so many people that givepeople a pass and say, okay, you
saw this stuff.
Well, I guess we're going toput you on the ot levels and
then they fall on their head andthat's.
You can't let them do that, soyou owe it to yourself to not to
not look at the last episode ofthe sopranos without watching
all the earlier seasons rightthis is what I'm, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I'm trying to say you're not going to enjoy the
show.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You're not right, you're not going to enjoy the
show if you go to chat gpt andinstance.
Give me a rundown of whatbreaking bad is about, uh, in
three paragraphs, because,though, well then, there's no
mystery, and right, what's thepoint in that now?
Now, of course, that's fiction.
This is not fiction.
The stuff that LRH talks aboutis real, it's palpable, and it
(43:55):
has to be approached on agradient.
Without that gradient, you willnot get the fruits of that, and
you owe it to yourself.
Respect yourself, love yourself.
Don't do this.
It's out there, yes, should youlook at it?
(44:17):
Hell, no, because the gainsthat you can get from
Scientology and Dianetics andthe OT levels are heretofore
unseen before it came on thescene, and you can get so very
much out of it.
You can be the richest being onthe planet for you and I don't
mean financially, I meanspiritually you owe it to
yourself to keep your ethics inand not do this because it is
(44:37):
such a common thing these days.
I beseech you as a listenerdon't do it.
Do it the right way, keep yourethics in.
So any questions we have inclosing on this topic of broken
on the bridge.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
I think we covered it .
I think that if anyone isfeeling broken on the bridge,
they've started and failedsomewhere or had any of these
phenomena or anything thesethings happen to them, that just
knowing that we have anunderstanding, a thorough
understanding, in fact, of wherethey may be, uh, if they fall
(45:18):
in any of these places, and howto help them.
So I think this is really good.
This is a very, very goodconversation, because I I don't
know if this has ever ever beenreally talked about publicly,
like who wants to go abouttalking about you know, oh, it
didn't work for me and there'swhy, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, and I mean you know it's once.
Once you've been in the tech isas long as we have, and you've
you've seen the gains that arepossible and you've studied it
and you've applied it and you'vedone internships and all this
stuff.
Just like anything else, whenyou really understand something,
it's easy and it's not thismiasma of all this confusion and
(46:01):
everything.
It's really really simple torepair people on things and they
may not know what it is, butthey know that that it is.
Something is wrong and you needto come to us and talk to us
and we'll get you a theta meter,we'll get you in session.
We'll find out what's going onwhere you're broken on the
bridge, where it's.
(46:21):
I've just never been able to geton the bridge.
I haven't been able to progressfrom this point, which would
call for case cracking.
There's something that needs tobe resolved or there's some
sort of ethics situation that'sgoing on and it's all
confrontable.
It's all confrontable with us,with ARC and KRC Affinity,
reality, communication,understanding, knowledge,
(46:42):
responsibility, control, power.
We can help you with this and Isay this at the end of every
podcast we love you.
This is a labor of love that wedo these podcasts.
We understand how scary it isand what case turns on and
everything.
And you want to be happy, youwant to be successful, you want
(47:03):
to flourish and prosper.
You can, you can.
All you have to do is get incommunication and we will help
you and put you on the rightpath so that you can get across
that bridge.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
So for Quentin Arthur kept popping in and popping out
because his internet is veryunstable where he's at in
Malaysia.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, sorry guys.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Get that fixed.
He already was here in spirit,if not in audio, which is okay,
we understand, and there'salways that getting out of
non-existence as to what's goingon with the Wi-Fi, wherever
you're at in this day and ageespecially, yeah do please,
wherever you're at, in this dayand age especially yeah, do
please so for Arthur Quentin andmyself.
(47:52):
Take care, and we'll talk toyou in the next podcast, in the
next day or two.
Namaste, and we love you,bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Peace.
Thanks, carson, bye-bye, thankyou, thank you.
Thanks for watching.
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