January 2, 2024 • 60 mins
Embark on a journey with us, your hosts Jonathan and Lisa Burke, as we draw back the curtains on the stark contrasts and challenging landscapes of corporate and independent Scientology. We kick off by tackling autonomy struggles faced by mission holders and dissect the Church's stringent ethics and security checks, contrasting them with the liberating practices among independent Scientologists. Join our expedition into a world where the essence of L. Ron Hubbard's teachings is sought after without the extremes of the Church's oversight, a realm where personal responsibility in ethics is not just a concept, but a way of life.
Our conversation then navigates the tempestuous seas independent Scientology practitioners face, from a scarcity of auditors to the quest for tighter community bonds. We share warfare tales of past harassment and how a steadfast non-engagement stance has ushered in calmer waters. The spotlight turns to the potential of AI in training and our vision of a retreat that could serve as a lighthouse for continuous learning, unity, and trust among those who walk the path of independent Scientology.
With the precision of skilled auditors, we examine the telltale signs of red flags in auditing practices and the pivotal role of accurate personality assessments, like the original Oxford Capacity Analysis. We stress the critical importance of handling Potential Trouble Source conditions and ensuring proper completion of courses to secure stable gains. The episode wraps up with a deeper look into why individuals might choose to venture into an independent Scientology organization, the controversies that enshroud Scientology, and a call to action for those inspired by Hubbard's work to safeguard the future of these profound teachings.
Website: ao-gp.org
Be social and join US!: collegeofindependentscientology.com
Take our personality test and get a free evaluation: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RHJQ6DY
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, independent Scientologists.
Discover a new perspective toyour bridge by visiting ao-gporg
.
Get in session with remoteauditing using the Theta Meter.
Are you curious about where youstand?
Head on over to ao-gporg nowand take our free personality
test.
Join the growing group ofindependent Scientologists today
(00:21):
.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the
Church podcast.
I'm your host, jonathan Burke,here with my co-host,
scientologist Lisa Burke, andwe're going to do a little lined
interview between Lisa and I.
She's going to ask me a bunchof questions and I'm going to
give answers regardingcomparisons of the corporate
(00:44):
Church of Scientology to theindependent field Scientology,
or the subject of Scientology,as I like to call it.
So take it away, lisa.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
ready as I'll ever be .
I have no idea what you'regoing to ask.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Okay, question one when does the church differ from
independent Scientology?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, as far as control goes, you've got the
Mission Holder Conference in theway.
They control the missions andmission holders don't really
have a whole heck of a lot ofsay.
If they want to remain in thecorporate Church of Scientology,
they have to do what they'retold and they have to abide by
it and they have to pay a tithe,a significant tithe, and if
they're not careful and they'retoo upstat they will be
(01:31):
penalized, like Beverly HillsMission was about 10-12 years
ago.
They did really really, reallywell and they had to do all
kinds of ethics handlings andeverything because they were
actually applying LRH policy andthey were nearly declared for
committees of evidence andthings like that.
Yeah, and then you know thebooks.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So we don't really have.
You know, that kind of thing wedon't declare and all of it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
No, we don't have declares in independent
Scientology.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
At least not public.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
At least not public.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I've seen some people just be like that person's race
of block the need you know.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, it's a little little little covert, mission
impossible, tom Cruisey, and youknow you can be disavowed by
other independent practitionersor something like that, but I've
never seen any any group actionon anybody.
You know, like we've talkedabout in other podcasts, ethics
is a personal thing and that'sthat's.
(02:24):
That's probably one of thebiggest and probably the biggest
umbrella.
That larger arc which is, youknow, it's something you talk
about a lot, is that ethics is apersonal thing and this is
something you don't.
Well, there's a couple ofaspects to this.
In the church they tell youwhat your ethics condition is.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, and you don't get to decide what your
condition is.
It's what we say goes, and thisis one of the areas that we we
handle right off the bat withpeople when we do a DFP
interview, when we interviewthem on a Theta Meter, online,
remotely from the comfort oftheir own home, and we find out
(03:11):
about these wrong indication,these outlists in auditing that
you get when somebody gives youan item and says you are in the
condition of prison.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Church of Scientology , corporate church of
Scientology, and we have anethics repair list that's over
120 questions long and we cleanpeople up on this, because
ethics is a personal thing and Isay this to people a lot when's
the last time the church did aset of conditions with you See?
(03:40):
So that's that's reallyimportant is you have to, you
have to look at that and youhave to get that cleaned up,
because you're not always in thewrong now, you're not always
right either, but you need todecide what your condition is
and you need to work on yourcondition.
And that's to me, that's thebiggest of all issues in the
church of Scientology, thecorporate church of Scientology,
(04:01):
the independent Scientology.
Now, the the opposite side tothat and this is going to be
controversial for me to say thisis the opposite side of that is
is that you see, not us, we'resomewhere in the middle on the
whole thing but you see a lot ofof independent auditors in the
field who they almost tend to goaround Overt's and with holds
(04:23):
because they didn't, they didn't, they got mishandled themselves
, so they tend to audit peopleto the degree that their case
has bypassed charge on it aswell and they go around this and
Overt's and with holds huge,huge piece of tech, yeah, and it
has to be applied and you can't.
You can't go around thatbecause that's you know, that's
(04:43):
what the L's are about isOvert's and with holds on
different terminals, whole trackterminals, pt terminals.
You know, terminals are peoplethat you deal with in your life
or valences, and this issomething the church does in the
opposite direction.
Is this you know, a six monthchecks with false purpose
rundown when you're on your OTlevels, which LRH never said you
(05:05):
had to do security checks,security checks, security checks
and all this stuff, becausethey're dramatizing their own
Overt's on their own public.
There's a middle ground and youdon't have to get crazy with it
.
You do what the old man saysand you win every time.
This is the big problem withthe church is they dramatize
their own out ethics on theirpublic.
(05:27):
Now, I'm not saying thateverybody.
When I say they, I meanspecifically upper manager.
We all know who that is andthat's the big problem is it has
become.
It has become culty to that, tothat degree where a thought
crime is real yeah.
(05:48):
I mean, again, we're talkingabout something Tom Cruise has
done, a movie about, thoughtcrimes.
You don't know for somebodyjust thinking something, you can
be security checked for threeintensives, four intensives on
just having a critical thoughtabout the church that's crazy
yeah, so these are.
These are some of the things onwhy we have, we have and we are
independent Scientologists isyou don't have to get crazy with
(06:10):
this stuff, but another side ofthe coin if there was a, the
edge of the coin is a lot ofindependent Scientologists.
They never got cleaned upthemselves either, these
auditors, yeah, and, and theytend to dramatize their own
cases on their own public, andthat is something that sorely,
sorely, sorely needs to be fixed.
(06:31):
We consider ourselves a centralorganization Pirella Rages
definition and we're more thanhappy to help fellow auditors
out, and, you know, I'm evenhappy to do it pro bono to help
get people cleaned up and makesure that we're all applying the
tech standardly and get thingsstraightened out to where we're
all on the level playing fieldand we're not omitting things.
(06:52):
We're doing what he says youneed to do in order to get the
gains that are available andpossible.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So that's my answer for question one.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Okay, I think if there was a succinct way of
putting it, I think, fromeverything that you said, I
would say that the the bigcatchphrase or line would be
that it's self-determinismversus other determinants.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I think I've seen from the get-go that with the
church it's almost like enforcedresponsibility, which is other
determined.
Yeah Right, if you want to helpsomebody, well, you've got to
be at least that curious, yeah.
So, yeah, I definitely thinkthat those are some of the ways
(07:38):
I also wanted to add you hadmentioned, just for viewers
listening, we had a little bangor something and so we had to
rerecord, but the first one thisis obviously the second take,
but the first one you mentionedabout prices and that kind of
thing.
Can you just touch on that aswell?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
the comparisons, well , once upon a time you used to
be able to get that auditing forroughly 10% of your income
annually.
That was the policy that LRADset up.
It wasn't supposed to besomething.
That was supposed that wascompletely out of reach.
And you have to put a personway in debt and double mortgage
(08:20):
their home and use their savingsand all this stuff that's one
of the biggest things is thecost of Scientology and it's so
out reality for people that theyhave to pay that much money in
order to go free that it's astop for people, because
obviously the way LRAD intendedit was to make the able man more
(08:43):
able.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So you don't want to give things away to people for
free, like the whole bridge,because honestly, we've been
here a while and it just isn'tappreciated, and then you get
people who actually resent youfor that.
It's even in OCA data whenyou're looking at stats and
(09:06):
stuff, but anyway.
So yeah, I definitely agree thatthere should be a fee, but
you've got to take intoconsideration what's happening
now in this world where peopleare I mean, it's a joke when it
comes to, I mean here in SouthAfrica, just as an example
people are getting degrees andthey're not able to find work.
(09:29):
So, all of those things need tobe taken into consideration as
well.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Very much so, and that's the thing is.
In independent Scientology,auditing is, at least by our
standards, on the prices that wehave, and everything Auditing
is appropriately priced for whatyou're getting In the church.
I mean, you know, a life repairis $10,000, sometimes 12.
(09:55):
On average Ours is $3,500.
So you know, I mean you canexpect to get.
We have people that we see onFacebook and other places that
contact us and they're, you know, is there any way we can do it
at this price or that price?
You know, can you do it inpayments?
Every time we do it in paymentssomething goes wrong and it's
(10:20):
very much like, you know, yougot to have some skin in the
game in order to get you to theend of the finish line, type of
thing, but it isn't near as muchas it is in the church.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And just so we're clear when you mean payments,
it's more like like bottomdollar kind of thing, rather
than, you know, average.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, you know it takes a lot of training,
it takes a lot of time and ittakes a lot of training and
people tend not to understandthat it took decades for the
training that I have and howmuch time it goes into that.
We're training other auditorsand everything like that, and
it's it's your spiritualeternity that's on the line here
(11:06):
, and you want somebody thatknows what they're doing and how
they're doing it, and theyshould be able to keep their
lights on as well.
But with the church it's theopposite thing, where it just
puts you in the hole so muchthat you're constantly having a
present time problem as to howmuch things are going to cost
and how am I going to make itand meet and all this stuff.
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Well, that's a really good thing, because now more
than ever, I think people need ahand.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Very much so, and you know we also have scholarships,
that for people that want totrain as auditors and want to,
or living as auditors and thingslike that.
You know we're always lookingfor more auditors to work at
AOGP.
We have more business that wecan handle.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, so everybody take this as an official,
putting it out there, like ifyou're an auditor and you would
like to join AOGP, contact us.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, drop us a line and we'll give you the
information on it.
Make sure your tech is good andeverything like that, and we'll
keep our exchange with you inabundance and you can make a
great living at the same time,because we've got more PCs than
we do audit.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, question two, and justexcuse the noise in the
background.
We have renovations going on,so we've tried to keep it as low
sound as possible, but it'sobviously just not happening.
Okay, question two.
(12:32):
Why do you think the church isfailing?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
They're not applying LRH policy.
They're not applying LRH tech.
He says in numerous, almostcountless places that if you
don't do these things the waythat he says now, it isn't
because he says it.
That's not the point.
It is because these are hardone facts.
(12:57):
Policy is policy typicallybecause there was a mistake that
was made and policy was adoptedin order to make sure that
these things didn't happen again.
And when they found successfulactions and they put them in
there and everything.
If you do these things and youdeliver the tech the way it's
supposed to be delivered, if youdeliver the tech with the
(13:19):
policy and you treat people theway they should be treated, then
you will have a thriving orglike we do.
This is something the churchdoesn't do anymore.
I have had so many people inthe last year come to us from
the church and go.
I just couldn't do it anymoreand they were there six weeks,
(13:41):
four weeks, two weeks.
This is why these orgs are emptyand now they're just a real
estate acquisition firm with afront as a religious activity.
They've just become a realestate company, basically
getting other people to pay forthese buildings and then saying,
oh, we've got a church, andthen they charge rent to the
(14:02):
orgs, and that's the other thing.
Nobody on staff gets rewardedfor what they do 40, 60, 80, 100
hours a week, and they'remaking chump change because the
church sees it all.
I mean it's human trafficking.
There's, by definition, andthat's why too, because if the
(14:22):
staff isn't winning, why in theworld, when you look at them as
examples, why in the world wouldyou want to be like that?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's the issue.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, no, for real.
I mean, I've personallyexperienced some of that myself
and it's just it's.
It's quite crazy theexploitation that goes on and
all of that.
Question three have youpersonally been attacked by the
(14:54):
church in any way?
Once okay, and.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That I know of right that we know.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I can't, I can't, I can't confirm or deny it.
I suspected it was twice.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah but once and obviously that you know there's
this I Don't know things, thingsthat have maybe happened online
and stuff.
Do you think you know peoplewho come out and say you know,
are they like moles or whateveryou call them?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
well, the one time when I went to see Marty Rath,
but down in down on Gulf Shores,they took pictures of me at the
gas station and they postedthem on on the duplicate website
of his and All that and theycalled my dad's neighbor and
they called my mom directly.
When I was there, my mom, mymom, let him have it tried to
(15:49):
third-party her on me and allthis stuff and you know it
didn't go anywhere.
Nothing, nothing severe.
Ever since they they lost thelawsuit to another independent
Group.
They really have a mess withanybody directly.
They do it in much more covertmeans which would then lead to,
(16:11):
you know, the the attacks thatwe've had on social media and
stuff like that years ago.
Yeah years ago, but it's beenquiet for Like almost four years
, five years now.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So you know, I mean not much.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I think it's probably because we're not, as they say,
feeding the trolls.
You know, I think I think,before Maybe being a little
inexperienced as an organization, we would, I Guess, try and
defend, but you know what thatkind of makes a person look
almost more guilty.
Yeah so then it's like well,what do you do if you say
nothing?
(16:47):
It's a withhold, you know, butI think right now we've we've
just focused on flourishing andprospering, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, you know, if you, if you don't, granted being
this, it doesn't go anywhere.
We've got an actual Mean thatwe posted a couple times
throughout the years that LRHsays that is easy.
You just don't acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah and it's, it's pretty much just come to a it's
a lot more higher tone thingsthat we can acknowledge.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, we're too busy to have to deal with CN
theta All right.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
In what ways could indie Scientology be better?
That's a loaded question.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And we can include our orgs as well, obviously.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm.
Scientology as a whole indieScientology as a whole.
Well, that that's.
That's something that I I'veI've probably touched on in a
couple of podcasts very, verybriefly, but one of the things
that we're looking at right nowis is that if, if something
isn't done About the number ofauditors in the independent
(17:55):
field by the time I'm lookingfor a new body, I would say
within the next 30 years, maybeless, and I could be and I'm not
talking about my, my, my demiseand picking up another body,
but I'm just saying, based offof the number of auditors that
we've lost Just in the last twoor three years.
(18:17):
The numbers are dwindling andyou're looking at a lot of these
guys that were the originalclass 8s, class 12s.
You know there aren't, therearen't many.
We've lost Seven in the lastthree years who were highly
trained auditors.
(18:37):
Yeah some were more in tech thanothers and and these, these
were all top guys.
I mean, they weren't class 4s,these were class 8s, class 9s,
class 12.
You know that's.
That's the the.
The thing that needs to be fixedthe most is is there isn't.
(18:57):
There isn't enough of us andthere isn't anybody doing doing
anything.
And I would, I would love, Iwould love somebody to say okay,
aogp, we're gonna give you arun for your money.
We're gonna do an online coursewhere we're gonna have an AI
Qualifications library that youcan talk to that has all those
(19:18):
LRH's lectures and tech volumesand OEC volumes and anything
under the sun that LRH everwrote.
You can go in there and you cansearch for anything and find it
immediately and have aconversation With it like chat
GPT.
We have that.
We audit online.
We're one of the one of the few, if not the only, that does
that.
But the thing that needs thatneeds to happen is that we we
(19:41):
need to be a cohesive unit, nota bunch of individuals
Individuating and all of thatstuff and and Nobody wanting to
share folders.
You know, if somebody decidesthey want to go somewhere else
or they want in-person auditingthat type of thing, it's very,
very secular.
(20:01):
Yeah and individuated, andthat's that's the thing that
needs to be fixed the most andI've wanted for years in Queens
talked about this too Is that weneed to have a retreat, and we
I'd like to do a retreat whereNot only do people come just
just for AOGP, but we have otherauditors that come and
(20:23):
everything and we we do ourcontinuing education like
chiropractors and dentists anddoctors do and stuff like that,
and we do heading and clean upand all of this stuff.
At the retreat, we people getto mix and meet and there needs,
you know, because there'sthere's a difference between
Virtuality, online Scientology,independent Scientology, and
(20:43):
where you get to press the fleshand you need to get to talk to
people and you get to have anice meal with people or nice
meals and spend time with themand sit around a fire and just
get an ARC.
Yeah, that's the thing that'smissing.
Is this the ARC that you havewith a third dynamic?
Yeah, the independentScientology doesn't have there's
a lot of this Backstabbery andand nattering and and all this
(21:06):
stuff, and nobody trusts anybodyelse on all the stuff.
That's the big thing.
Is the trust.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I'm not really sure why that is.
You know, is it because we know, um?
You know, is it because we knowthat you know a whole bunch of
stuff, like you know, becauseI'm obviously I feel like you
know, scientologists are hereand then you know, everybody
else not trying to, you know,individuate, but like we do know
(21:36):
a lot about the workings of theworld, the human mind, etc.
So you know that puts us at abit of an advantage.
So I don't know if that Makespeople already wary.
You know, like, because ofthings like over-it's and with
all it's, like as soon assomebody is being critical, for
example, I'm like you've donesomething to me, haven't you?
(21:56):
You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, the, the, the withhold stands out, you
know, because they're.
You know, like Ellarade says,the hardest thing to spot is a
missing, this.
When's the last time we heard,yeah, had any direct
communication from any otherindependent Scientology auditor
or an organization?
I can't remember.
Probably it was probably itwhen it was a, a warning about a
(22:20):
particular auditor From ronsorgI'm not naming any names.
This was like four years ago.
They sent this out about this,this particular person.
That's the only communicationI've gotten from anybody since
four years.
You know, and, and that that'syou know.
(22:43):
It should, it should be thatwe're all in common and this,
the.
The other thing that needs tobe dispelled is, on a planet
that has almost 8 billion peopleand there's 200,000 people plus
born every day, I remember youand I sat down and figured it
out how many people are born andhow many, how many bodies die
On a planet.
That that many people.
There's no scarcity of preclears, yeah, and I think that
(23:07):
that's the silliest notion ofall is.
Is that there's this covetousyeah, uh, about, you know, the
scarcity of PCs and everythinglike that, and you know we all
need to work together here.
It shouldn't be thisindividuation thing and
withholding this and stuff likethat.
That's what I think needs to tobe fixed is that we're all on
(23:29):
the same page.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Absolutely.
I completely agree with that.
What should a person look outfor when joining an independent
org or auditor?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, again, you don't know what you don't know.
The hardest thing, this spot isthe missing, this there's
certain things that you should,you should know, and that there
are red flags.
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna fromit as a as a technical terminal.
I'm just gonna say what thesethings are.
Did they ask you for apersonality test?
What personality test are theyusing?
(24:00):
Are they using the originalpersonality test?
Are they using the changepersonality test that the church
uses?
Refer back to our interview withmark schreffler about how the
church changed their OCA's.
We don't use.
If you have an OCA from thechurch and you come to us, we'll
ask you to do another OCA withthe original questions, because
it's it's an incorrect test thatthe church uses.
(24:22):
If, if an auditor in the fieldisn't using an OCA to program
your folder, that's a red flag.
If an auditor isn't doing a Dfpinterview with you on the meter
, that's a red flag.
They're just saying, well, I'mjust gonna give you this and
we're just gonna go in sessionand they don't do any setups,
(24:43):
that's another red flag.
And and if they're notconsistently doing dfp
interviews, if they don't do atest, yeah when you attest a
certain action, how long is?
is what it, what it is thatyou're doing as a PC?
You, you don't know thesethings.
Yeah you just, you just have tobelieve them Openly that that
(25:03):
what it is that they're doing.
But these are some of thethings.
Are you getting?
You getting certificates Foryou what you're doing?
That's another thing.
We're backlogged oncertificates by about six months
and I need to get those out toeverybody.
But we do give certificates andwe don't let anybody pass go.
When they do a course, theyhave to do the course Holy and
fully.
This independent Scientology,at least from our standpoint.
(25:25):
We're trying to do what Hubbardsaid, and that is you do the
check sheet, you do the rightway.
We give you the checkouts.
We make sure your clay demosare done right.
Make sure you do your demosright.
We make sure that you are aproduct.
That is what assert acertification is for and, as far
as auditing goes, is the samething if you don't have it.
(25:47):
We're gonna keep working onthere.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah and uh, would you say that PTSness plays a
role.
You know, like if, if, ifyou've got an OCA and then says
PTS, like, what, like, can the?
Can the person just go aheadand do any auditing, or is there
?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
no, no, I mean and I've mentioned this to another
podcast before as well is thatPreco of it?
It was about, and you'dprobably agree with me because
you did most of our OCA's youwere looking at somewhere in the
neighborhood of about 65 70percent of the people that we
got OCA's from.
They were PTS post COVID it'sabout 90, 95.
(26:23):
Yeah that's crazy and it hasbeen ever since.
And the thing is is that ifyou're auditing a person with a
graft that says their PTS whichis below 32 on the D column,
whatever gains they get inauditing are going to be
rollercoastery or lost becausethey're still PTS.
So the first thing that has tobe handled is is, if you're
(26:45):
getting sick, you've got a low Don your OCA, you're under
suppression and you wantauditing.
That's the first thing we needto handle, along with a couple
of other things, and we alwayslook into that.
Because the thing is is yourmoney, is your money and you
want to get what you want to getfor your money?
And that means that things haveto be done.
Your, your interiorization,exteriorization, has to be
(27:06):
checked.
Do you have any outlets?
Are you PTS?
You have out rudiments, thesesorts of things, but I mean PTS.
This has to be handled beforeyou pass, go on anything,
otherwise your auditing gainsare going to be stable and
you're going to be like well,what did I do auditing, for I'm
still sick, I'm still unhappy.
So we, we always do that.
When somebody new comes to usand we get a PTS graph, we
(27:28):
suggest that they do the ups anddowns course, and they apply
that material and then retestthem.
I don't know of anybody else inthe field that does that.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, I can't think of anyone who has been doing
that either, especially like Imean, it's honestly mind blowing
when I think to myself thatsome people just don't use an
OCA, that that that needs to bein so that you can see if the
person is PTS.
(27:56):
Otherwise they're just going togo around in circles.
You're going to waste your time, you're going to waste your PCs
, money and time.
You know it's, it's insane.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, it's like.
It's like you know, being apilot and not looking at the
weather report before you, you,you, you submit your flight plan
to the FAA and the UnitedStates, you know.
I mean, you have to do thesethings because you don't want to
go on choppy weather,especially if you're not trained
to do that.
So you need to know before yougo.
There's an actual reference theCS series that talks about that
(28:25):
know before you go.
That's why you do theinterviews, that's why you do
the OCA.
You get the person set up forit so that their, their, their
wins are stable, their gains arestable and they're certified on
their courses and they and theyknow what they know.
I mean, we're not doing this,we're not doing this to make
money.
We're doing this because we, wecare and we love the subject of
(28:45):
independent Scientology and wewant people to take this and we
want them to use it with otherpeople.
We want them to use it rightand we want them to have the
gains.
And somebody say I want whatshe's having, I want that.
That's, that's the kind ofperson I want to be Right, and
so that's that's why it'simportant to make sure that
there are no red flags andyou're.
(29:07):
Anybody is welcome to ask us.
They don't have to tell us whotheir auditor is.
We don't even need to know.
Yeah, but if you want to askYou're probably even better that
we don't that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
there's no doubt in their mind that we're being
biased.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That's right, and and that way it's sort of a double
blind thing.
And you can say well, this iswhat they're doing with me.
And then I can say thisreference, this reference, this
reference, this referenceapplies to this, that's right.
And take it up with LRH.
You're not taking it up with me.
All I am and and and all we areis we're just, we just know
where these things are and wecan say this is what you're
(29:40):
supposed to do.
Give them these references.
We're not saying we're takingyou over, we don't want to take
you over from that person, butget them to apply those, those
references and and do what theyneed to do with you.
And if they don't and theywon't well then you need to make
a decision.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, and then I also wanted to ask when it comes to
an auditor's personality, whatare some of the things that
would stand out as bad things?
So obviously I know that youknow if an auditor a violin
session, invalidates, evaluates,is aggressive, frustrated talks
(30:18):
about their own case andsession all of that stuff on no
nose.
Is there anything else that youcould include in that?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Well, whether in or outside of session, yeah, like
LRH says, the only two thingsthat can go wrong really in a
session are either out TRs orbad metering.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And you know, having their basics and everything
obviously helps as well.
You know if, if, if their TRsare out, if an auditor yells at
you which we've had many peoplecome to us, and I'm not naming
any names on who that auditor orthose auditors were.
I mean, you were a.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
BC yourself, and I think I remember you telling me
a story about somebody shoutingat you.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, and that's actually you know in a
podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So I'm not going to name any names you go back and
find in the podcast.
But yeah, that happened, thathappened to me as a PC, okay, so
, and you know I'm it's no bigdeal to me at all, but that's
that's the type of thing is.
Is your auditor should beprofessionals, they should apply
the professionalism PL and theart series one on being a
(31:29):
professional, and if they'rethey're unprofessional, then you
might want to let them knowAgain.
You know the.
The solution to the problem isfurther communication, not less,
but L or H, and you need tolook at the auditor's code and
you need to look at your code ofhonor and everything like that.
And sometimes you don't knowuntil you've paid them and
(31:50):
you've gotten in session andsomething isn't right and and
anybody is welcome to give me ascenario and you know I'll give
them the references and andwe'll help them with that.
But you just need NT NTRs.
They need to be at least atstrong interest when they go in
session with their PC and if youask them for references and
they don't want to give youreferences, that's a huge red
(32:15):
flag, huge, probably the biggestred flag of all.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
So there's, some right there.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Why would somebody want to join an independent org
above joining the church?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, I think, simply put, money is a factor.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Self determinism.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Self determinism.
Do they grant you beingness?
What's their tone, level andthe way that they they approach
you, you know?
Are they, are they in stronginterest?
Are they granting you beingness?
Are they being friendly?
Are they pushing you around?
Are they asking for you, foryour credit card number and your
banking details with in thefirst visit?
We don't do that, elevator.
There's no policy on that, youknow.
(32:59):
And again, they need to be ableto show you what the policies
are and they should notinterpret those policies for you
.
We have all of the unchangedpolicies and ACOBs and you can
always come to us and we'll giveyou access to our QAL library
and we'll show you thereferences that are in question
(33:20):
and you can compare the changedones to the unchanged ones.
And that's that's the mainthing that LRH has.
If it isn't written, it isn'ttrue.
And as as an example, back in Iwas probably around 2001, 2002,
the International Associationof Scientologists, which is a
(33:41):
separate organization from theChurch of Scientology.
Most people don't know thatthey, for decades they've gone
around saying you know, we needmoney, we need money, we need
money.
The suppressives are going toshut the church down tomorrow
and if we don't get the money.
This is the only thing that'sgoing to stop this.
And I just flat out told themin the hallway on the way to the
Academy.
I said look, what you're doingis suppressive.
You guys have been doing thisfor decades, ever since I was a
(34:02):
little kid.
I remember I was there with my,my dad.
You can't do this sort of thingand and expect people to to
feel safe because the IASdoesn't do anything.
It just takes money and thatmoney goes towards you know who.
And if it isn't written, itisn't true.
(34:23):
You show me the documentationthat says that this is, this is
going to happen and what's theproof on this?
Don't take any verbal data fromthe church.
Don't at all.
Get it in writing.
Get them to show you.
And the same thing withindependent, like we said, with
auditors and things like that.
Get it in writing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, I mean they're almost, in a way, like merchants
of chaos, almost while takingmoney for it.
Yeah, that's covert coverthostility.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, is what it is Gaslighting.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah, what requirements, if any, are
necessary to join?
I know that there's things likeillegal PCs and PTSD et cetera.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Well, as far as modern, like, for example,
psychiatric drugs and thingslike that, the church just says
nope because they look at you asa legal threat.
We're not that way that much.
There's very few psychiatricdrugs that we can't get you off
of.
Typically it's four to sixweeks that we ask you to get off
(35:23):
of them before you get auditingor before you become a student,
and that's really hard for somepeople.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And then there's also the pure for drug rundown, and
although is that for that aswell?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, and they should do a purification rundown and a
Scientology drug rundown astheir first actions after that
to get this stuff out of theirsystem.
We've had several public whocan't get off of their ADHD meds
.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, adderall.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, adderall is the primary culprit on that, and
it's very, very difficult forthem to get off because it's
highly, highly addictive.
And that's one of the biggestproblems that we face with
people is that they want helpbut they have to get down off of
it gradientally.
Do a purif, get a Scientologydrug rundown.
(36:13):
Some people can't do a purifNot everybody has to do a purif
but at least the Scientologydrug rundown to get this stuff
handled and objectives as wellwould be highly recommended in
that situation.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
So if we can handle it, if the church doesn't want
to do it with people, that'skind of strange, because then
that's kind of like invalidatingthings like the purif and the
drug rundown, that it's like notworking if they can, but they
just don't want to do it.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah Well, they really don't want to help those
people.
They want to help people thatthey want to help, and Isn't
there like a Narcanon orsomething like that?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Is that also something?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
There is Narcanon.
But Narcanon is, as far as I'mconcerned, is non-functional.
I have heard so many horrorstories.
I even know and we have publicon our lines who actually owned
their own branch of Narcanon andthey were taken out by the
church.
Yeah, so you know, I mean youjust have to look at it and you
(37:19):
look at the statistics and go,okay, there are a lot more
people out there that can behelped if you want to.
Yeah, but it's also true thatwhat Ron says is we want to help
those people who want to helpthemselves and if you don't want
to get off of it, there isn't alot we can do for you.
We'll try, we'll help you and,believe you me, we have tried.
(37:41):
I've sent emails and emails andemails and emails to people to
try and help them with that, anda lot of times they don't get
back to us at all because theyknow they can't get off of it.
And if they wanted to come tous in person, definitely,
definitely, we can get them offof that or all, for example.
(38:03):
But there are so many over thecounter and so many prescribed
drugs by psychiatrists thatpretty much just stop a person
right where they're at andthey're PTS because they're on
these.
I mean, you know what I'mtalking about.
So it's a situation where we'llhelp you.
We won't say no.
(38:24):
The church would say no.
That's pretty much what itcomes down to.
But you have to be willing toput in the work.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
What requirements, if any, are necessary to join.
Oh no, I already did that one.
What would you say to someonewho has reservations about
Inesontology?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Read a book.
Read a book.
Probably the negative stuff onReddit is one of the worst ESMB,
that type of a thing.
If Hubbard was a bad guy hewouldn't have written all.
I mean, he's the most prolificauthor on planet Earth.
(39:04):
There isn't anybody that'swritten more stuff than he has
and it's not gobbledygook.
Most people that criticizeScientology, the subject and or
independent Scientology I meanyou know the church because
there's the criticism it getsbecause of it's not doing what
Hubbard said to do.
For the most part there are alot of wonderful people that are
(39:24):
still in the church.
They're just PTSD David and hiscabbage.
But the point is, is that, whatwas your?
What was the question?
Again, I want to make sure I'manswering it.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What would you say to somebody who has reservations
reservations about Inesontology?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, is look and see what he says about.
Whatever your questions are,email us, we'll send you the
references.
Read fundamentals of thought.
Read a new slant on life.
Read the way to happiness.
Super easy, you just look at itand go.
It makes sense.
These are the things I shoulddo for myself and my first
dynamic for me Listen to the4,861 lectures that we have.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
On.
Soundcloud yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You can see, this guy cared about humanity and the
future of mankind.
He wasn't just doing it to makemoney.
Nobody, I mean.
He didn't have to write allthis stuff.
He didn't have to do theselectures to do that.
He could have done it a lotmore simply, but he did it
because it was a research lineand he was trying to perfect
this over 50 years.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
For me I just wanted to go back to what you said
about the black PR that's outthere about Scientology as a
whole and independentScientology and Auditors etc Is
that if you look at the tone ofthe people that are saying these
things, you can clearly seethat it is completely reactive,
(40:58):
and it doesn't take a genius tofigure out that anything that's
reactive isn't necessarily thetruth.
So if people are talking fromanalytical understanding and
they're trying to put the piecestogether or analyze the
situation, etc.
(41:18):
Then you can say, okay, well,that makes sense, that makes
sense.
But most of these peoplethey're aggressive and they're
reinforced, which means they'recritical.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
What makes a person critical over its withholds?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
The thing is, is you ask people, what are you basing
this off of?
What is it that is in writingthat backs up what it is that
you're saying?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And they will just go in circles around it and you
can't get an actual answer fromthem, because they're not
dealing with fact, they'redealing with the reactive mind.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, it's just baseless opinion.
You say that type of a thingand I've taken people on on
Reddit directly and said look, Iknow and I've been involved in
this subject for almost 40 yearsand I know by what you're
saying you do not know anythingabout this subject.
Go back and school yourself andread a book and come back and
(42:17):
tell me, after you've tried toapply it to your life, that it
doesn't work.
I know you know it works.
Try it.
Until then I'm not going todeal with you anywhere, because
you don't know about what you'retalking about One iota.
It's just baseless opinion ontop of opinion on top of opinion
.
Get it in writing from peopleif they're saying something
(42:39):
critical, if they can't give youproof that it was from Hubbard
or something else and verifiedthat the person had the
authority and knew what theywere talking about and had the
facts.
Otherwise, it's worthlessinformation and that person is
just critical.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
But the sad thing is that, even if I mean sure,
publicly people would make abutt out of themselves.
But getting a person to changehis mind, even if even when all
the facts are presented to them,is nearly impossible because
the reactive mind just wants tobe right.
I mean, well, the Thayton wantsto be right and uses the
(43:18):
reactive mind to make them right, and it's sad.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Right.
Well, you run into the samething when you try and tell
people about who are in thecorporate church and you try and
tell them what's going on.
When I did that and I left thechurch in 2004, every single
last person that I thought wasmy friend abandoned me because
they had too much to lose.
It couldn't be true.
And here we are 20 years later.
(43:45):
Since 2004, when I left thechurch, 20 years later, most not
all there's only two auditorsthat I know of that were friends
of mine Most of those peoplethat I tried to get out of the
church are now out out.
They're not in the independentfield and they're not in the
corporate church of Scientology.
They are out of Scientologyaltogether.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
It's like a bad memory for them.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, it's an engram because they've been made wrong.
They saw things they couldn'thandle it.
There was no justice andinstead and one of these people
blew me away this guy, thisfriend of mine, started CCHR
Citizens' Commissions on HumanRights Against the Psychiatrists
(44:29):
for the church.
He is out out of the church.
Another guy that I was oncourse with, who is the HES at
Tampa Oregon, saw so manyheinous wrongnesses on his post
at Tampa Ward.
When I contacted him onFacebook and wanted to get
together with him, he said, yeah, come down and visit me, don't
(44:50):
bring your meter when his wifewas a classified auditor and a
good one, a really good one outout.
This is the kind of thing thathappens when people aren't able
to handle the wrongnessesbecause the upper management
doesn't want them to handle thewrongnesses, because it was in
upper management's favor andthey had to commit the over.
(45:12):
It's to be the grist in themill.
It really pisses me off.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I think for some of those people I have seen where
even the independent field hassome really nasty people in it
who are just incrediblyself-important and it's like
their way or the highway andthey don't give you.
I mean, just because they'reoutside of the church doesn't
mean they don't have that churchmentality.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So that's true, you see it a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, some of these people that have left and
they're like out out may haveseen that as the scene and just
been like you know well.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Right, yeah, and one of the things that I was told by
one of my mentors is is, look,a lot of the people that you're
gonna get are people the churchcouldn't handle, and there's a
reason.
They're in the field andthey're not in the church.
Now, you know, those reasonscould be many, but the church
can't handle a lot of peoplebecause they're not using the
(46:13):
TACA probe really.
So that leaves a pretty widemargin or who you can help and
who you can't help.
Yes, there are some psychoticsthat the church has sent our way
and other people's way to causeharm.
There are other people who justwant help and they couldn't get
it in the church and they werewrong More often than not.
That's what it is and you canclean that up.
We're happy to do a free ARCbreak session.
(46:35):
You got a theta meter on yourend for us to do it.
Or we can handle it with justcommunication, with semantics,
conditions and stuff, andindicate the bypass chart just
with two-way column.
We can do that as well.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
So you have it.
There's an offer.
There's some controversiesabout Scientology as a whole.
Thoughts.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
We're talking almost in line of parasyntology and
obviously not giving away thestuff.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, the confidential stuff and
everything.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
We had a podcast on that In fact, you could even say
, like why are thingsconfidential, or was that in
another podcast?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, it wasn't another podcast, but it's worth
mentioning that there's afundamental that we try to
operate off of is that justbecause you can doesn't mean you
should.
But the opposite side of thatis, because I can, I will.
Okay.
And there's a fine line onself-determinism, self-control.
(47:41):
As far as looking at upperlevel materials and things like
that and being let out into thepublic, that falls squarely on
David Miscavige letting thathappen, and it's a good thing.
We made lemonade out of lemonson that and that's why we can
deliver what we deliver.
But the other side of it is isthat you need to be fair to
(48:05):
yourself and you need to do iton a gradient.
One of the big controversies inthe churches that you people
look at all the upper levelmaterial oh, that's bullshit,
all that stuff.
Well, of course it is becauseyou're not set up for it.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, I mean it would be like showing a five-year-old
child a rocket science, youknow, or chemistry on a Not real
to them, it's not.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
It's not real to them and you have to do things on a
gradient and if you're set upproperly, I would stake my life
on what Hubbard says is true.
If you do it the way that hesays to do it, you will get the
gains that he says you will get.
I have no reservation on thatand I stake my reputation on it,
(48:49):
or Org's reputation on it,period.
And this is the thing whypeople have such a problem with
the corporate church ofScientology and LRH says it If
you don't deliver what'spromised, people aren't gonna
stay.
That's why these Org's areempty, and part of delivering
what's promised is grantingpeople being this letting them
(49:10):
be self-determined, not givingthem wrong indications with
OCA's that have changedquestions, not changing the
f-end to a three-swing f-end,making them pay for things that
you screwed up on.
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I mean these are all important things in charging
them outrageous rates that arecompletely outreality to them on
what they can get for thesethings.
These are all things you don'tdo what you're supposed to do.
They're not gonna stick around.
Two years or less is theturnaround for most people that
get into the corporate church ofScientology.
Maybe, maybe 3% of those peoplestick around beyond that and
(49:49):
those are the people with themoney who get the A++ service
from the church because they'rea whale type of a thing.
But other than that, if youstay more than two years, it's
uncommon because of the way thatthey treat people.
And that's the biggest thing is, you wanna treat people the way
you wanna be treated and theydon't do that.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
So I'm gonna TR through this.
There's some controversiesabout Scientology as a whole.
So when it comes to someconfidential data and stuff like
some confidential data andstuff, like I wanna say, yeah,
(50:30):
okay, nevermind, we'll just skipthat one.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Well, the controversies, a lot of the
controversy surrounds the upperlevels.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And I wanna say, but I can'tsay because yeah, obviously.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Well, and the controversy is this the reason
why it's confidential is becauseit's confidential for a reason
okay, and you can't explain awaythe bottom end of the bridge
from the top end of the bridge.
Pierre Athea told me that andit is absolutely true, because
it is a gradient the more chargeyou remove off the case, the
more the person's awarenessincreases, and we're gonna have
(51:06):
a podcast about the awarenessscale here within the next week,
talking about the awarenessscale.
If you're not aware that thesethings are going on, it's going
to seem ridiculous andcompletely unreal and you're
gonna think these guys are justnuts.
But I promise you, if you do itcorrectly, the gains and he
says this, it is completelyunreal to somebody at the lower
(51:29):
end of the bridge the gains thatare available and completely
possible If you do the techcorrectly, you don't skip
anything, you don't quickieanything and you do it right.
This is why there's controversysurrounding the church is
because they don't deliverwhat's promised, and that's why
there's so much controversy,because people go and look at
(51:52):
the upper level stuff and theygo oh it's.
You know all this there's andI'm gonna be blunt here and
we're gonna have a podcast aboutthis with Quentin the next
podcast.
There are so many things in theBible, for example.
So many things in the Biblethat you could look at and you
could say are just asunbelievable and unreal as
(52:13):
anything in Scientology OTlevels anything.
Okay, if you believe there's aman in this guy that's
responsible for everything thathappens to you and he sacrificed
his son, on and on and on andall this stuff.
Jesus never said he was the sonof God.
That was put in there by aRoman emperor after Jesus was
dead because they could sell thereligion.
(52:35):
Okay, these are things peopleneed to understand and know.
It isn't any more crazy thananything that you find in normal
earth religions.
I mean, you look at the Indiansand the gods that they support
and everything.
But here's the deal we respect.
We respect a person's viewpointon what their religious beliefs
(52:56):
are.
The Church of Scientology saysah, you can be a Scientologist
and you can believe this and allthis stuff, but you better
believe they're gonna invalidateand evaluate you for that
really quick.
Because all ScientologyScientology the subject does is
it enhances your awareness ofwhatever it is that you believe.
(53:16):
And if you change your mind,great, you don't change your
mind and it's true for you.
Guess what?
That's totally okay, becausewhat's true for you is true for
you, and that's the way it needsto be operated off of.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
And we have our final question Do you think
independent Scientology willmake it and if so, how?
Wow.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Hmm, that's not a happy question.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
I'll answer it.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
It could have been yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, there's two directions that it can go.
It can continue on in thedirection that it is and that
there isn't anybody out thereoutside of us trying to make
this stuff as available andcheaply, if not pro bono for
people to get more auditorstrained, because every day there
(54:15):
are less and less and lessauditors on this planet.
The most valuable beings per LRHon the planet are auditors, and
I'm not just saying people thataudit other people.
What needs to be understood isif you wanted to make a cleared
planet now to me I don't thinkthat it's terribly real to make
(54:39):
a cleared planet in my lifetime.
It would be if you had oneperson take responsibility for
one other person and you justdid that.
You could have a cleared planetin six months to a year if
people did that.
That is one way that thingscould go positive, because one
auditor can only audit about,can only make somewhere in the
(55:01):
neighborhood of a couple hundredclears in their lifetime.
Given the amount of time thatit takes you're looking at 250
to 300 hours to make one clear Imean it's easy to do the math
and look at it and go, okay,yeah, things aren't looking real
great right now.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I mean the people that we are helping like.
Okay, so we choose the ablepeople.
Well, we, not we.
But as LRH says, you know.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Help the able become more able.
Yeah, so Less and less ablepeople every day due to all of
these over the counter and theseprescriptions and things like
that.
People taking all thesemedications the bad food.
I mean you look at COVID andwhat it's done with the jab and
all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
Yeah, and so if you have that and you look at the
people that we're currentlyhelping, I mean these people are
, they have their careers, theirdreams, they're, you know,
doing that.
So it's difficult to see how wecan use those kinds of people
(56:08):
who are already established andknow what they wanna do.
You know, obviously, they'redone, they're good, they just
wanna learn how to be do andhave more on their own.
So now it's like well, who isleft to forward the thing, who
is left to make auditors, etcetera?
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Right, right and LLRH says that.
You know, as people get older,they start to worry about what
they have to come back to you.
Are they gonna have Scientologyto come back to you?
If things don't change and wedon't pull off the things that
we wanna pull off, I don't thinkit's gonna be around in 50 or
100 years.
I really don't.
(56:49):
It'll fall the wayside, like somany other religious
philosophies and things likethat.
And that means that you can'tjust procrastinate.
You have to do something.
And I'm not saying this from aviewpoint of you know, come, do
services with us, pick up a book, start doing something about it
, stop putting it off.
(57:09):
Because the thing is is that,like he says, you have this
brief breath and eternity to dosomething about this and turn
the tides in this universe.
And this is it, folks.
You need to do something thislifetime.
This year it's 2024.
Now you need to get on thebridge, you need to get trained.
50% of the gains are fromtraining, 50% of the gains are
(57:32):
from process.
It doesn't take as long as youthink it does, it's just a
matter.
You can go full OT in less thana year and a half to two years
from the bottom of the bridge tothe top.
You can get trained as anauditor in six months time.
If you do it full time.
You can get trained in a yearpart time, and that doesn't mean
(57:54):
that you have to just go outand audit other people, but it
means that you can go out andhelp other people and you can
present Scientology to them andpique their interest and get
them involved and do a touchassist with them or something
like that, or teach them aboutthe ARC triangle.
Because that's what needs to bedone is people need to be made
aware of it.
And LRH says don't worry aboutthe degradation of society.
(58:16):
The worse society gets, themore people are gonna look for
something like Scientology, thesubject, or independent
Scientology, because they wantto better the condition that
they're existing in, becausethings have gotten worse.
Scientology will be there forthem.
They just need to know about it.
And the more you know about itand the more you use it, to the
(58:36):
degree your dynamics are goingto align and you're gonna find
that you're gonna be able tosurvive happier, much more well.
You're gonna be a lot moreserene and you're gonna be a lot
more cause over your life andthe cause of other people's
lives near you and that youassociate.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
So we are really ending this off in a high note.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, something can't .
It's inspirational.
Yeah, something can be doneabout the situation.
It's just a matter of makingthe decision and just doing it
every day, just like you decideto go to the gym.
It's really no different.
Spend an hour a day listeningto a lecture in traffic or
whatever.
Start getting this information,Take a course, get some
(59:16):
auditing, do self-analysis it'sfree.
Do some book one.
Quinn did 400 hours of book onewith his roommate.
Wow 400, I was actually over 400hours.
I mean it can be done andthat's free.
You can practically go clearjust with that if you want to.
I mean it takes a lot ofdedication and there's some
(59:36):
things that need to be cleanedup in between, but I mean the
options are there, it's just amatter of deciding to do it.
It's just that decision.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Absolutely Well, I don't have any more questions.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
All right, so we are at the 60 minute mark with this
podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Thank you, lisa, for doing theinterview and we will get this
up and on the net to all of thepodcast services later this
afternoon.
We hope you enjoyed it, and formyself, jonathan Burke and for
Lisa Burke.
We'll talk to you soon withQuentin on our next podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Bye çŸç‰‡.
Hey there, independent Scientologists.
Discover a new perspective toyour bridge by visiting ao-gporg
.
Get in session with remoteauditing using the Theta Meter.
Are you curious about where youstand?
Head on over to ao-gporg nowand take our free personality
test.
Join the growing group ofindependent Scientologists today
(00:21):
.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi and welcome to another AOGP Outside of the
Church podcast.
I'm your host, jonathan Burke,here with my co-host,
scientologist Lisa Burke, andwe're going to do a little lined
interview between Lisa and I.
She's going to ask me a bunchof questions and I'm going to
give answers regardingcomparisons of the corporate
(00:44):
Church of Scientology to theindependent field Scientology,
or the subject of Scientology,as I like to call it.
So take it away, lisa.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
ready as I'll ever be .
I have no idea what you'regoing to ask.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Okay, question one when does the church differ from
independent Scientology?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, as far as control goes, you've got the
Mission Holder Conference in theway.
They control the missions andmission holders don't really
have a whole heck of a lot ofsay.
If they want to remain in thecorporate Church of Scientology,
they have to do what they'retold and they have to abide by
it and they have to pay a tithe,a significant tithe, and if
they're not careful and they'retoo upstat they will be
(01:31):
penalized, like Beverly HillsMission was about 10-12 years
ago.
They did really really, reallywell and they had to do all
kinds of ethics handlings andeverything because they were
actually applying LRH policy andthey were nearly declared for
committees of evidence andthings like that.
Yeah, and then you know thebooks.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So we don't really have.
You know, that kind of thing wedon't declare and all of it.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
No, we don't have declares in independent
Scientology.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
At least not public.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
At least not public.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I've seen some people just be like that person's race
of block the need you know.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, it's a little little little covert, mission
impossible, tom Cruisey, and youknow you can be disavowed by
other independent practitionersor something like that, but I've
never seen any any group actionon anybody.
You know, like we've talkedabout in other podcasts, ethics
is a personal thing and that'sthat's.
(02:24):
That's probably one of thebiggest and probably the biggest
umbrella.
That larger arc which is, youknow, it's something you talk
about a lot, is that ethics is apersonal thing and this is
something you don't.
Well, there's a couple ofaspects to this.
In the church they tell youwhat your ethics condition is.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, and you don't get to decide what your
condition is.
It's what we say goes, and thisis one of the areas that we we
handle right off the bat withpeople when we do a DFP
interview, when we interviewthem on a Theta Meter, online,
remotely from the comfort oftheir own home, and we find out
(03:11):
about these wrong indication,these outlists in auditing that
you get when somebody gives youan item and says you are in the
condition of prison.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Church of Scientology , corporate church of
Scientology, and we have anethics repair list that's over
120 questions long and we cleanpeople up on this, because
ethics is a personal thing and Isay this to people a lot when's
the last time the church did aset of conditions with you See?
(03:40):
So that's that's reallyimportant is you have to, you
have to look at that and youhave to get that cleaned up,
because you're not always in thewrong now, you're not always
right either, but you need todecide what your condition is
and you need to work on yourcondition.
And that's to me, that's thebiggest of all issues in the
church of Scientology, thecorporate church of Scientology,
(04:01):
the independent Scientology.
Now, the the opposite side tothat and this is going to be
controversial for me to say thisis the opposite side of that is
is that you see, not us, we'resomewhere in the middle on the
whole thing but you see a lot ofof independent auditors in the
field who they almost tend to goaround Overt's and with holds
(04:23):
because they didn't, they didn't, they got mishandled themselves
, so they tend to audit peopleto the degree that their case
has bypassed charge on it aswell and they go around this and
Overt's and with holds huge,huge piece of tech, yeah, and it
has to be applied and you can't.
You can't go around thatbecause that's you know, that's
(04:43):
what the L's are about isOvert's and with holds on
different terminals, whole trackterminals, pt terminals.
You know, terminals are peoplethat you deal with in your life
or valences, and this issomething the church does in the
opposite direction.
Is this you know, a six monthchecks with false purpose
rundown when you're on your OTlevels, which LRH never said you
(05:05):
had to do security checks,security checks, security checks
and all this stuff, becausethey're dramatizing their own
Overt's on their own public.
There's a middle ground and youdon't have to get crazy with it
.
You do what the old man saysand you win every time.
This is the big problem withthe church is they dramatize
their own out ethics on theirpublic.
(05:27):
Now, I'm not saying thateverybody.
When I say they, I meanspecifically upper manager.
We all know who that is andthat's the big problem is it has
become.
It has become culty to that, tothat degree where a thought
crime is real yeah.
(05:48):
I mean, again, we're talkingabout something Tom Cruise has
done, a movie about, thoughtcrimes.
You don't know for somebodyjust thinking something, you can
be security checked for threeintensives, four intensives on
just having a critical thoughtabout the church that's crazy
yeah, so these are.
These are some of the things onwhy we have, we have and we are
independent Scientologists isyou don't have to get crazy with
(06:10):
this stuff, but another side ofthe coin if there was a, the
edge of the coin is a lot ofindependent Scientologists.
They never got cleaned upthemselves either, these
auditors, yeah, and, and theytend to dramatize their own
cases on their own public, andthat is something that sorely,
sorely, sorely needs to be fixed.
(06:31):
We consider ourselves a centralorganization Pirella Rages
definition and we're more thanhappy to help fellow auditors
out, and, you know, I'm evenhappy to do it pro bono to help
get people cleaned up and makesure that we're all applying the
tech standardly and get thingsstraightened out to where we're
all on the level playing fieldand we're not omitting things.
(06:52):
We're doing what he says youneed to do in order to get the
gains that are available andpossible.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
So that's my answer for question one.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Okay, I think if there was a succinct way of
putting it, I think, fromeverything that you said, I
would say that the the bigcatchphrase or line would be
that it's self-determinismversus other determinants.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
I think I've seen from the get-go that with the
church it's almost like enforcedresponsibility, which is other
determined.
Yeah Right, if you want to helpsomebody, well, you've got to
be at least that curious, yeah.
So, yeah, I definitely thinkthat those are some of the ways
(07:38):
I also wanted to add you hadmentioned, just for viewers
listening, we had a little bangor something and so we had to
rerecord, but the first one thisis obviously the second take,
but the first one you mentionedabout prices and that kind of
thing.
Can you just touch on that aswell?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
the comparisons, well , once upon a time you used to
be able to get that auditing forroughly 10% of your income
annually.
That was the policy that LRADset up.
It wasn't supposed to besomething.
That was supposed that wascompletely out of reach.
And you have to put a personway in debt and double mortgage
(08:20):
their home and use their savingsand all this stuff that's one
of the biggest things is thecost of Scientology and it's so
out reality for people that theyhave to pay that much money in
order to go free that it's astop for people, because
obviously the way LRAD intendedit was to make the able man more
(08:43):
able.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So you don't want to give things away to people for
free, like the whole bridge,because honestly, we've been
here a while and it just isn'tappreciated, and then you get
people who actually resent youfor that.
It's even in OCA data whenyou're looking at stats and
(09:06):
stuff, but anyway.
So yeah, I definitely agree thatthere should be a fee, but
you've got to take intoconsideration what's happening
now in this world where peopleare I mean, it's a joke when it
comes to, I mean here in SouthAfrica, just as an example
people are getting degrees andthey're not able to find work.
(09:29):
So, all of those things need tobe taken into consideration as
well.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Very much so, and that's the thing is.
In independent Scientology,auditing is, at least by our
standards, on the prices that wehave, and everything Auditing
is appropriately priced for whatyou're getting In the church.
I mean, you know, a life repairis $10,000, sometimes 12.
(09:55):
On average Ours is $3,500.
So you know, I mean you canexpect to get.
We have people that we see onFacebook and other places that
contact us and they're, you know, is there any way we can do it
at this price or that price?
You know, can you do it inpayments?
Every time we do it in paymentssomething goes wrong and it's
(10:20):
very much like, you know, yougot to have some skin in the
game in order to get you to theend of the finish line, type of
thing, but it isn't near as muchas it is in the church.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And just so we're clear when you mean payments,
it's more like like bottomdollar kind of thing, rather
than, you know, average.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, you know it takes a lot of training,
it takes a lot of time and ittakes a lot of training and
people tend not to understandthat it took decades for the
training that I have and howmuch time it goes into that.
We're training other auditorsand everything like that, and
it's it's your spiritualeternity that's on the line here
(11:06):
, and you want somebody thatknows what they're doing and how
they're doing it, and theyshould be able to keep their
lights on as well.
But with the church it's theopposite thing, where it just
puts you in the hole so muchthat you're constantly having a
present time problem as to howmuch things are going to cost
and how am I going to make itand meet and all this stuff.
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Well, that's a really good thing, because now more
than ever, I think people need ahand.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Very much so, and you know we also have scholarships,
that for people that want totrain as auditors and want to,
or living as auditors and thingslike that.
You know we're always lookingfor more auditors to work at
AOGP.
We have more business that wecan handle.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, so everybody take this as an official,
putting it out there, like ifyou're an auditor and you would
like to join AOGP, contact us.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, drop us a line and we'll give you the
information on it.
Make sure your tech is good andeverything like that, and we'll
keep our exchange with you inabundance and you can make a
great living at the same time,because we've got more PCs than
we do audit.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, question two, and justexcuse the noise in the
background.
We have renovations going on,so we've tried to keep it as low
sound as possible, but it'sobviously just not happening.
Okay, question two.
(12:32):
Why do you think the church isfailing?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
They're not applying LRH policy.
They're not applying LRH tech.
He says in numerous, almostcountless places that if you
don't do these things the waythat he says now, it isn't
because he says it.
That's not the point.
It is because these are hardone facts.
(12:57):
Policy is policy typicallybecause there was a mistake that
was made and policy was adoptedin order to make sure that
these things didn't happen again.
And when they found successfulactions and they put them in
there and everything.
If you do these things and youdeliver the tech the way it's
supposed to be delivered, if youdeliver the tech with the
(13:19):
policy and you treat people theway they should be treated, then
you will have a thriving orglike we do.
This is something the churchdoesn't do anymore.
I have had so many people inthe last year come to us from
the church and go.
I just couldn't do it anymoreand they were there six weeks,
(13:41):
four weeks, two weeks.
This is why these orgs are emptyand now they're just a real
estate acquisition firm with afront as a religious activity.
They've just become a realestate company, basically
getting other people to pay forthese buildings and then saying,
oh, we've got a church, andthen they charge rent to the
(14:02):
orgs, and that's the other thing.
Nobody on staff gets rewardedfor what they do 40, 60, 80, 100
hours a week, and they'remaking chump change because the
church sees it all.
I mean it's human trafficking.
There's, by definition, andthat's why too, because if the
(14:22):
staff isn't winning, why in theworld, when you look at them as
examples, why in the world wouldyou want to be like that?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's the issue.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, no, for real.
I mean, I've personallyexperienced some of that myself
and it's just it's.
It's quite crazy theexploitation that goes on and
all of that.
Question three have youpersonally been attacked by the
(14:54):
church in any way?
Once okay, and.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That I know of right that we know.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I can't, I can't, I can't confirm or deny it.
I suspected it was twice.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah but once and obviously that you know there's
this I Don't know things, thingsthat have maybe happened online
and stuff.
Do you think you know peoplewho come out and say you know,
are they like moles or whateveryou call them?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
well, the one time when I went to see Marty Rath,
but down in down on Gulf Shores,they took pictures of me at the
gas station and they postedthem on on the duplicate website
of his and All that and theycalled my dad's neighbor and
they called my mom directly.
When I was there, my mom, mymom, let him have it tried to
(15:49):
third-party her on me and allthis stuff and you know it
didn't go anywhere.
Nothing, nothing severe.
Ever since they they lost thelawsuit to another independent
Group.
They really have a mess withanybody directly.
They do it in much more covertmeans which would then lead to,
(16:11):
you know, the the attacks thatwe've had on social media and
stuff like that years ago.
Yeah years ago, but it's beenquiet for Like almost four years
, five years now.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So you know, I mean not much.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I think it's probably because we're not, as they say,
feeding the trolls.
You know, I think I think,before Maybe being a little
inexperienced as an organization, we would, I Guess, try and
defend, but you know what thatkind of makes a person look
almost more guilty.
Yeah so then it's like well,what do you do if you say
nothing?
(16:47):
It's a withhold, you know, butI think right now we've we've
just focused on flourishing andprospering, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, you know, if you, if you don't, granted being
this, it doesn't go anywhere.
We've got an actual Mean thatwe posted a couple times
throughout the years that LRHsays that is easy.
You just don't acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah and it's, it's pretty much just come to a it's
a lot more higher tone thingsthat we can acknowledge.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, we're too busy to have to deal with CN
theta All right.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
In what ways could indie Scientology be better?
That's a loaded question.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, yeah Well.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And we can include our orgs as well, obviously.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm.
Scientology as a whole indieScientology as a whole.
Well, that that's.
That's something that I I'veI've probably touched on in a
couple of podcasts very, verybriefly, but one of the things
that we're looking at right nowis is that if, if something
isn't done About the number ofauditors in the independent
(17:55):
field by the time I'm lookingfor a new body, I would say
within the next 30 years, maybeless, and I could be and I'm not
talking about my, my, my demiseand picking up another body,
but I'm just saying, based offof the number of auditors that
we've lost Just in the last twoor three years.
(18:17):
The numbers are dwindling andyou're looking at a lot of these
guys that were the originalclass 8s, class 12s.
You know there aren't, therearen't many.
We've lost Seven in the lastthree years who were highly
trained auditors.
(18:37):
Yeah some were more in tech thanothers and and these, these
were all top guys.
I mean, they weren't class 4s,these were class 8s, class 9s,
class 12.
You know that's.
That's the the.
The thing that needs to be fixedthe most is is there isn't.
(18:57):
There isn't enough of us andthere isn't anybody doing doing
anything.
And I would, I would love, Iwould love somebody to say okay,
aogp, we're gonna give you arun for your money.
We're gonna do an online coursewhere we're gonna have an AI
Qualifications library that youcan talk to that has all those
(19:18):
LRH's lectures and tech volumesand OEC volumes and anything
under the sun that LRH everwrote.
You can go in there and you cansearch for anything and find it
immediately and have aconversation With it like chat
GPT.
We have that.
We audit online.
We're one of the one of the few, if not the only, that does
that.
But the thing that needs thatneeds to happen is that we we
(19:41):
need to be a cohesive unit, nota bunch of individuals
Individuating and all of thatstuff and and Nobody wanting to
share folders.
You know, if somebody decidesthey want to go somewhere else
or they want in-person auditingthat type of thing, it's very,
very secular.
(20:01):
Yeah and individuated, andthat's that's the thing that
needs to be fixed the most andI've wanted for years in Queens
talked about this too Is that weneed to have a retreat, and we
I'd like to do a retreat whereNot only do people come just
just for AOGP, but we have otherauditors that come and
(20:23):
everything and we we do ourcontinuing education like
chiropractors and dentists anddoctors do and stuff like that,
and we do heading and clean upand all of this stuff.
At the retreat, we people getto mix and meet and there needs,
you know, because there'sthere's a difference between
Virtuality, online Scientology,independent Scientology, and
(20:43):
where you get to press the fleshand you need to get to talk to
people and you get to have anice meal with people or nice
meals and spend time with themand sit around a fire and just
get an ARC.
Yeah, that's the thing that'smissing.
Is this the ARC that you havewith a third dynamic?
Yeah, the independentScientology doesn't have there's
a lot of this Backstabbery andand nattering and and all this
(21:06):
stuff, and nobody trusts anybodyelse on all the stuff.
That's the big thing.
Is the trust.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I'm not really sure why that is.
You know, is it because we know, um?
You know, is it because we knowthat you know a whole bunch of
stuff, like you know, becauseI'm obviously I feel like you
know, scientologists are hereand then you know, everybody
else not trying to, you know,individuate, but like we do know
(21:36):
a lot about the workings of theworld, the human mind, etc.
So you know that puts us at abit of an advantage.
So I don't know if that Makespeople already wary.
You know, like, because ofthings like over-it's and with
all it's, like as soon assomebody is being critical, for
example, I'm like you've donesomething to me, haven't you?
(21:56):
You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah, the, the, the withhold stands out, you
know, because they're.
You know, like Ellarade says,the hardest thing to spot is a
missing, this.
When's the last time we heard,yeah, had any direct
communication from any otherindependent Scientology auditor
or an organization?
I can't remember.
Probably it was probably itwhen it was a, a warning about a
(22:20):
particular auditor From ronsorgI'm not naming any names.
This was like four years ago.
They sent this out about this,this particular person.
That's the only communicationI've gotten from anybody since
four years.
You know, and, and that that'syou know.
(22:43):
It should, it should be thatwe're all in common and this,
the.
The other thing that needs tobe dispelled is, on a planet
that has almost 8 billion peopleand there's 200,000 people plus
born every day, I remember youand I sat down and figured it
out how many people are born andhow many, how many bodies die
On a planet.
That that many people.
There's no scarcity of preclears, yeah, and I think that
(23:07):
that's the silliest notion ofall is.
Is that there's this covetousyeah, uh, about, you know, the
scarcity of PCs and everythinglike that, and you know we all
need to work together here.
It shouldn't be thisindividuation thing and
withholding this and stuff likethat.
That's what I think needs to tobe fixed is that we're all on
(23:29):
the same page.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Absolutely.
I completely agree with that.
What should a person look outfor when joining an independent
org or auditor?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, again, you don't know what you don't know.
The hardest thing, this spot isthe missing, this there's
certain things that you should,you should know, and that there
are red flags.
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna fromit as a as a technical terminal.
I'm just gonna say what thesethings are.
Did they ask you for apersonality test?
What personality test are theyusing?
(24:00):
Are they using the originalpersonality test?
Are they using the changepersonality test that the church
uses?
Refer back to our interview withmark schreffler about how the
church changed their OCA's.
We don't use.
If you have an OCA from thechurch and you come to us, we'll
ask you to do another OCA withthe original questions, because
it's it's an incorrect test thatthe church uses.
(24:22):
If, if an auditor in the fieldisn't using an OCA to program
your folder, that's a red flag.
If an auditor isn't doing a Dfpinterview with you on the meter
, that's a red flag.
They're just saying, well, I'mjust gonna give you this and
we're just gonna go in sessionand they don't do any setups,
(24:43):
that's another red flag.
And and if they're notconsistently doing dfp
interviews, if they don't do atest, yeah when you attest a
certain action, how long is?
is what it, what it is thatyou're doing as a PC?
You, you don't know thesethings.
Yeah you just, you just have tobelieve them Openly that that
(25:03):
what it is that they're doing.
But these are some of thethings.
Are you getting?
You getting certificates Foryou what you're doing?
That's another thing.
We're backlogged oncertificates by about six months
and I need to get those out toeverybody.
But we do give certificates andwe don't let anybody pass go.
When they do a course, theyhave to do the course Holy and
fully.
This independent Scientology,at least from our standpoint.
(25:25):
We're trying to do what Hubbardsaid, and that is you do the
check sheet, you do the rightway.
We give you the checkouts.
We make sure your clay demosare done right.
Make sure you do your demosright.
We make sure that you are aproduct.
That is what assert acertification is for and, as far
as auditing goes, is the samething if you don't have it.
(25:47):
We're gonna keep working onthere.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah and uh, would you say that PTSness plays a
role.
You know, like if, if, ifyou've got an OCA and then says
PTS, like, what, like, can the?
Can the person just go aheadand do any auditing, or is there
?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
no, no, I mean and I've mentioned this to another
podcast before as well is thatPreco of it?
It was about, and you'dprobably agree with me because
you did most of our OCA's youwere looking at somewhere in the
neighborhood of about 65 70percent of the people that we
got OCA's from.
They were PTS post COVID it'sabout 90, 95.
(26:23):
Yeah that's crazy and it hasbeen ever since.
And the thing is is that ifyou're auditing a person with a
graft that says their PTS whichis below 32 on the D column,
whatever gains they get inauditing are going to be
rollercoastery or lost becausethey're still PTS.
So the first thing that has tobe handled is is, if you're
(26:45):
getting sick, you've got a low Don your OCA, you're under
suppression and you wantauditing.
That's the first thing we needto handle, along with a couple
of other things, and we alwayslook into that.
Because the thing is is yourmoney, is your money and you
want to get what you want to getfor your money?
And that means that things haveto be done.
Your, your interiorization,exteriorization, has to be
(27:06):
checked.
Do you have any outlets?
Are you PTS?
You have out rudiments, thesesorts of things, but I mean PTS.
This has to be handled beforeyou pass, go on anything,
otherwise your auditing gainsare going to be stable and
you're going to be like well,what did I do auditing, for I'm
still sick, I'm still unhappy.
So we, we always do that.
When somebody new comes to usand we get a PTS graph, we
(27:28):
suggest that they do the ups anddowns course, and they apply
that material and then retestthem.
I don't know of anybody else inthe field that does that.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, I can't think of anyone who has been doing
that either, especially like Imean, it's honestly mind blowing
when I think to myself thatsome people just don't use an
OCA, that that that needs to bein so that you can see if the
person is PTS.
(27:56):
Otherwise they're just going togo around in circles.
You're going to waste your time, you're going to waste your PCs
, money and time.
You know it's, it's insane.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, it's like.
It's like you know, being apilot and not looking at the
weather report before you, you,you, you submit your flight plan
to the FAA and the UnitedStates, you know.
I mean, you have to do thesethings because you don't want to
go on choppy weather,especially if you're not trained
to do that.
So you need to know before yougo.
There's an actual reference theCS series that talks about that
(28:25):
know before you go.
That's why you do theinterviews, that's why you do
the OCA.
You get the person set up forit so that their, their, their
wins are stable, their gains arestable and they're certified on
their courses and they and theyknow what they know.
I mean, we're not doing this,we're not doing this to make
money.
We're doing this because we, wecare and we love the subject of
(28:45):
independent Scientology and wewant people to take this and we
want them to use it with otherpeople.
We want them to use it rightand we want them to have the
gains.
And somebody say I want whatshe's having, I want that.
That's, that's the kind ofperson I want to be Right, and
so that's that's why it'simportant to make sure that
there are no red flags andyou're.
(29:07):
Anybody is welcome to ask us.
They don't have to tell us whotheir auditor is.
We don't even need to know.
Yeah, but if you want to askYou're probably even better that
we don't that.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
there's no doubt in their mind that we're being
biased.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That's right, and and that way it's sort of a double
blind thing.
And you can say well, this iswhat they're doing with me.
And then I can say thisreference, this reference, this
reference, this referenceapplies to this, that's right.
And take it up with LRH.
You're not taking it up with me.
All I am and and and all we areis we're just, we just know
where these things are and wecan say this is what you're
(29:40):
supposed to do.
Give them these references.
We're not saying we're takingyou over, we don't want to take
you over from that person, butget them to apply those, those
references and and do what theyneed to do with you.
And if they don't and theywon't well then you need to make
a decision.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah, and then I also wanted to ask when it comes to
an auditor's personality, whatare some of the things that
would stand out as bad things?
So obviously I know that youknow if an auditor a violin
session, invalidates, evaluates,is aggressive, frustrated talks
(30:18):
about their own case andsession all of that stuff on no
nose.
Is there anything else that youcould include in that?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Well, whether in or outside of session, yeah, like
LRH says, the only two thingsthat can go wrong really in a
session are either out TRs orbad metering.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And you know, having their basics and everything
obviously helps as well.
You know if, if, if their TRsare out, if an auditor yells at
you which we've had many peoplecome to us, and I'm not naming
any names on who that auditor orthose auditors were.
I mean, you were a.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
BC yourself, and I think I remember you telling me
a story about somebody shoutingat you.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, and that's actually you know in a
podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So I'm not going to name any names you go back and
find in the podcast.
But yeah, that happened, thathappened to me as a PC, okay, so
, and you know I'm it's no bigdeal to me at all, but that's
that's the type of thing is.
Is your auditor should beprofessionals, they should apply
the professionalism PL and theart series one on being a
(31:29):
professional, and if they'rethey're unprofessional, then you
might want to let them knowAgain.
You know the.
The solution to the problem isfurther communication, not less,
but L or H, and you need tolook at the auditor's code and
you need to look at your code ofhonor and everything like that.
And sometimes you don't knowuntil you've paid them and
(31:50):
you've gotten in session andsomething isn't right and and
anybody is welcome to give me ascenario and you know I'll give
them the references and andwe'll help them with that.
But you just need NT NTRs.
They need to be at least atstrong interest when they go in
session with their PC and if youask them for references and
they don't want to give youreferences, that's a huge red
(32:15):
flag, huge, probably the biggestred flag of all.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
So there's, some right there.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Why would somebody want to join an independent org
above joining the church?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Well, I think, simply put, money is a factor.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Self determinism.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Self determinism.
Do they grant you beingness?
What's their tone, level andthe way that they they approach
you, you know?
Are they, are they in stronginterest?
Are they granting you beingness?
Are they being friendly?
Are they pushing you around?
Are they asking for you, foryour credit card number and your
banking details with in thefirst visit?
We don't do that, elevator.
There's no policy on that, youknow.
(32:59):
And again, they need to be ableto show you what the policies
are and they should notinterpret those policies for you
.
We have all of the unchangedpolicies and ACOBs and you can
always come to us and we'll giveyou access to our QAL library
and we'll show you thereferences that are in question
(33:20):
and you can compare the changedones to the unchanged ones.
And that's that's the mainthing that LRH has.
If it isn't written, it isn'ttrue.
And as as an example, back in Iwas probably around 2001, 2002,
the International Associationof Scientologists, which is a
(33:41):
separate organization from theChurch of Scientology.
Most people don't know thatthey, for decades they've gone
around saying you know, we needmoney, we need money, we need
money.
The suppressives are going toshut the church down tomorrow
and if we don't get the money.
This is the only thing that'sgoing to stop this.
And I just flat out told themin the hallway on the way to the
Academy.
I said look, what you're doingis suppressive.
You guys have been doing thisfor decades, ever since I was a
(34:02):
little kid.
I remember I was there with my,my dad.
You can't do this sort of thingand and expect people to to
feel safe because the IASdoesn't do anything.
It just takes money and thatmoney goes towards you know who.
And if it isn't written, itisn't true.
(34:23):
You show me the documentationthat says that this is, this is
going to happen and what's theproof on this?
Don't take any verbal data fromthe church.
Don't at all.
Get it in writing.
Get them to show you.
And the same thing withindependent, like we said, with
auditors and things like that.
Get it in writing.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, I mean they're almost, in a way, like merchants
of chaos, almost while takingmoney for it.
Yeah, that's covert coverthostility.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, is what it is Gaslighting.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah, what requirements, if any, are
necessary to join?
I know that there's things likeillegal PCs and PTSD et cetera.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Well, as far as modern, like, for example,
psychiatric drugs and thingslike that, the church just says
nope because they look at you asa legal threat.
We're not that way that much.
There's very few psychiatricdrugs that we can't get you off
of.
Typically it's four to sixweeks that we ask you to get off
(35:23):
of them before you get auditingor before you become a student,
and that's really hard for somepeople.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And then there's also the pure for drug rundown, and
although is that for that aswell?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, and they should do a purification rundown and a
Scientology drug rundown astheir first actions after that
to get this stuff out of theirsystem.
We've had several public whocan't get off of their ADHD meds
.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, adderall.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, adderall is the primary culprit on that, and
it's very, very difficult forthem to get off because it's
highly, highly addictive.
And that's one of the biggestproblems that we face with
people is that they want helpbut they have to get down off of
it gradientally.
Do a purif, get a Scientologydrug rundown.
(36:13):
Some people can't do a purifNot everybody has to do a purif
but at least the Scientologydrug rundown to get this stuff
handled and objectives as wellwould be highly recommended in
that situation.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
So if we can handle it, if the church doesn't want
to do it with people, that'skind of strange, because then
that's kind of like invalidatingthings like the purif and the
drug rundown, that it's like notworking if they can, but they
just don't want to do it.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah Well, they really don't want to help those
people.
They want to help people thatthey want to help, and Isn't
there like a Narcanon orsomething like that?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Is that also something?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
There is Narcanon.
But Narcanon is, as far as I'mconcerned, is non-functional.
I have heard so many horrorstories.
I even know and we have publicon our lines who actually owned
their own branch of Narcanon andthey were taken out by the
church.
Yeah, so you know, I mean youjust have to look at it and you
(37:19):
look at the statistics and go,okay, there are a lot more
people out there that can behelped if you want to.
Yeah, but it's also true thatwhat Ron says is we want to help
those people who want to helpthemselves and if you don't want
to get off of it, there isn't alot we can do for you.
We'll try, we'll help you and,believe you me, we have tried.
(37:41):
I've sent emails and emails andemails and emails to people to
try and help them with that, anda lot of times they don't get
back to us at all because theyknow they can't get off of it.
And if they wanted to come tous in person, definitely,
definitely, we can get them offof that or all, for example.
(38:03):
But there are so many over thecounter and so many prescribed
drugs by psychiatrists thatpretty much just stop a person
right where they're at andthey're PTS because they're on
these.
I mean, you know what I'mtalking about.
So it's a situation where we'llhelp you.
We won't say no.
(38:24):
The church would say no.
That's pretty much what itcomes down to.
But you have to be willing toput in the work.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
What requirements, if any, are necessary to join.
Oh no, I already did that one.
What would you say to someonewho has reservations about
Inesontology?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Read a book.
Read a book.
Probably the negative stuff onReddit is one of the worst ESMB,
that type of a thing.
If Hubbard was a bad guy hewouldn't have written all.
I mean, he's the most prolificauthor on planet Earth.
(39:04):
There isn't anybody that'swritten more stuff than he has
and it's not gobbledygook.
Most people that criticizeScientology, the subject and or
independent Scientology I meanyou know the church because
there's the criticism it getsbecause of it's not doing what
Hubbard said to do.
For the most part there are alot of wonderful people that are
(39:24):
still in the church.
They're just PTSD David and hiscabbage.
But the point is, is that, whatwas your?
What was the question?
Again, I want to make sure I'manswering it.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What would you say to somebody who has reservations
reservations about Inesontology?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah, is look and see what he says about.
Whatever your questions are,email us, we'll send you the
references.
Read fundamentals of thought.
Read a new slant on life.
Read the way to happiness.
Super easy, you just look at itand go.
It makes sense.
These are the things I shoulddo for myself and my first
dynamic for me Listen to the4,861 lectures that we have.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
On.
Soundcloud yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You can see, this guy cared about humanity and the
future of mankind.
He wasn't just doing it to makemoney.
Nobody, I mean.
He didn't have to write allthis stuff.
He didn't have to do theselectures to do that.
He could have done it a lotmore simply, but he did it
because it was a research lineand he was trying to perfect
this over 50 years.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
For me I just wanted to go back to what you said
about the black PR that's outthere about Scientology as a
whole and independentScientology and Auditors etc Is
that if you look at the tone ofthe people that are saying these
things, you can clearly seethat it is completely reactive,
(40:58):
and it doesn't take a genius tofigure out that anything that's
reactive isn't necessarily thetruth.
So if people are talking fromanalytical understanding and
they're trying to put the piecestogether or analyze the
situation, etc.
(41:18):
Then you can say, okay, well,that makes sense, that makes
sense.
But most of these peoplethey're aggressive and they're
reinforced, which means they'recritical.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
What makes a person critical over its withholds?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
The thing is, is you ask people, what are you basing
this off of?
What is it that is in writingthat backs up what it is that
you're saying?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And they will just go in circles around it and you
can't get an actual answer fromthem, because they're not
dealing with fact, they'redealing with the reactive mind.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, it's just baseless opinion.
You say that type of a thingand I've taken people on on
Reddit directly and said look, Iknow and I've been involved in
this subject for almost 40 yearsand I know by what you're
saying you do not know anythingabout this subject.
Go back and school yourself andread a book and come back and
(42:17):
tell me, after you've tried toapply it to your life, that it
doesn't work.
I know you know it works.
Try it.
Until then I'm not going todeal with you anywhere, because
you don't know about what you'retalking about One iota.
It's just baseless opinion ontop of opinion on top of opinion
.
Get it in writing from peopleif they're saying something
(42:39):
critical, if they can't give youproof that it was from Hubbard
or something else and verifiedthat the person had the
authority and knew what theywere talking about and had the
facts.
Otherwise, it's worthlessinformation and that person is
just critical.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
But the sad thing is that, even if I mean sure,
publicly people would make abutt out of themselves.
But getting a person to changehis mind, even if even when all
the facts are presented to them,is nearly impossible because
the reactive mind just wants tobe right.
I mean, well, the Thayton wantsto be right and uses the
(43:18):
reactive mind to make them right, and it's sad.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Right.
Well, you run into the samething when you try and tell
people about who are in thecorporate church and you try and
tell them what's going on.
When I did that and I left thechurch in 2004, every single
last person that I thought wasmy friend abandoned me because
they had too much to lose.
It couldn't be true.
And here we are 20 years later.
(43:45):
Since 2004, when I left thechurch, 20 years later, most not
all there's only two auditorsthat I know of that were friends
of mine Most of those peoplethat I tried to get out of the
church are now out out.
They're not in the independentfield and they're not in the
corporate church of Scientology.
They are out of Scientologyaltogether.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
It's like a bad memory for them.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, it's an engram because they've been made wrong.
They saw things they couldn'thandle it.
There was no justice andinstead and one of these people
blew me away this guy, thisfriend of mine, started CCHR
Citizens' Commissions on HumanRights Against the Psychiatrists
(44:29):
for the church.
He is out out of the church.
Another guy that I was oncourse with, who is the HES at
Tampa Oregon, saw so manyheinous wrongnesses on his post
at Tampa Ward.
When I contacted him onFacebook and wanted to get
together with him, he said, yeah, come down and visit me, don't
(44:50):
bring your meter when his wifewas a classified auditor and a
good one, a really good one outout.
This is the kind of thing thathappens when people aren't able
to handle the wrongnessesbecause the upper management
doesn't want them to handle thewrongnesses, because it was in
upper management's favor andthey had to commit the over.
(45:12):
It's to be the grist in themill.
It really pisses me off.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I think for some of those people I have seen where
even the independent field hassome really nasty people in it
who are just incrediblyself-important and it's like
their way or the highway andthey don't give you.
I mean, just because they'reoutside of the church doesn't
mean they don't have that churchmentality.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So that's true, you see it a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yeah, some of these people that have left and
they're like out out may haveseen that as the scene and just
been like you know well.
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Right, yeah, and one of the things that I was told by
one of my mentors is is, look,a lot of the people that you're
gonna get are people the churchcouldn't handle, and there's a
reason.
They're in the field andthey're not in the church.
Now, you know, those reasonscould be many, but the church
can't handle a lot of peoplebecause they're not using the
(46:13):
TACA probe really.
So that leaves a pretty widemargin or who you can help and
who you can't help.
Yes, there are some psychoticsthat the church has sent our way
and other people's way to causeharm.
There are other people who justwant help and they couldn't get
it in the church and they werewrong More often than not.
That's what it is and you canclean that up.
We're happy to do a free ARCbreak session.
(46:35):
You got a theta meter on yourend for us to do it.
Or we can handle it with justcommunication, with semantics,
conditions and stuff, andindicate the bypass chart just
with two-way column.
We can do that as well.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
So you have it.
There's an offer.
There's some controversiesabout Scientology as a whole.
Thoughts.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
We're talking almost in line of parasyntology and
obviously not giving away thestuff.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, the confidential stuff and
everything.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
We had a podcast on that In fact, you could even say
, like why are thingsconfidential, or was that in
another podcast?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, it wasn't another podcast, but it's worth
mentioning that there's afundamental that we try to
operate off of is that justbecause you can doesn't mean you
should.
But the opposite side of thatis, because I can, I will.
Okay.
And there's a fine line onself-determinism, self-control.
(47:41):
As far as looking at upperlevel materials and things like
that and being let out into thepublic, that falls squarely on
David Miscavige letting thathappen, and it's a good thing.
We made lemonade out of lemonson that and that's why we can
deliver what we deliver.
But the other side of it is isthat you need to be fair to
(48:05):
yourself and you need to do iton a gradient.
One of the big controversies inthe churches that you people
look at all the upper levelmaterial oh, that's bullshit,
all that stuff.
Well, of course it is becauseyou're not set up for it.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, I mean it would be like showing a five-year-old
child a rocket science, youknow, or chemistry on a Not real
to them, it's not.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
It's not real to them and you have to do things on a
gradient and if you're set upproperly, I would stake my life
on what Hubbard says is true.
If you do it the way that hesays to do it, you will get the
gains that he says you will get.
I have no reservation on thatand I stake my reputation on it,
(48:49):
or Org's reputation on it,period.
And this is the thing whypeople have such a problem with
the corporate church ofScientology and LRH says it If
you don't deliver what'spromised, people aren't gonna
stay.
That's why these Org's areempty, and part of delivering
what's promised is grantingpeople being this letting them
(49:10):
be self-determined, not givingthem wrong indications with
OCA's that have changedquestions, not changing the
f-end to a three-swing f-end,making them pay for things that
you screwed up on.
We don't do that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
I mean these are all important things in charging
them outrageous rates that arecompletely outreality to them on
what they can get for thesethings.
These are all things you don'tdo what you're supposed to do.
They're not gonna stick around.
Two years or less is theturnaround for most people that
get into the corporate church ofScientology.
Maybe, maybe 3% of those peoplestick around beyond that and
(49:49):
those are the people with themoney who get the A++ service
from the church because they'rea whale type of a thing.
But other than that, if youstay more than two years, it's
uncommon because of the way thatthey treat people.
And that's the biggest thing is, you wanna treat people the way
you wanna be treated and theydon't do that.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
So I'm gonna TR through this.
There's some controversiesabout Scientology as a whole.
So when it comes to someconfidential data and stuff like
some confidential data andstuff, like I wanna say, yeah,
(50:30):
okay, nevermind, we'll just skipthat one.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
Well, the controversies, a lot of the
controversy surrounds the upperlevels.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, exactly.
And I wanna say, but I can'tsay because yeah, obviously.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Well, and the controversy is this the reason
why it's confidential is becauseit's confidential for a reason
okay, and you can't explain awaythe bottom end of the bridge
from the top end of the bridge.
Pierre Athea told me that andit is absolutely true, because
it is a gradient the more chargeyou remove off the case, the
more the person's awarenessincreases, and we're gonna have
(51:06):
a podcast about the awarenessscale here within the next week,
talking about the awarenessscale.
If you're not aware that thesethings are going on, it's going
to seem ridiculous andcompletely unreal and you're
gonna think these guys are justnuts.
But I promise you, if you do itcorrectly, the gains and he
says this, it is completelyunreal to somebody at the lower
(51:29):
end of the bridge the gains thatare available and completely
possible If you do the techcorrectly, you don't skip
anything, you don't quickieanything and you do it right.
This is why there's controversysurrounding the church is
because they don't deliverwhat's promised, and that's why
there's so much controversy,because people go and look at
(51:52):
the upper level stuff and theygo oh it's.
You know all this there's andI'm gonna be blunt here and
we're gonna have a podcast aboutthis with Quentin the next
podcast.
There are so many things in theBible, for example.
So many things in the Biblethat you could look at and you
could say are just asunbelievable and unreal as
(52:13):
anything in Scientology OTlevels anything.
Okay, if you believe there's aman in this guy that's
responsible for everything thathappens to you and he sacrificed
his son, on and on and on andall this stuff.
Jesus never said he was the sonof God.
That was put in there by aRoman emperor after Jesus was
dead because they could sell thereligion.
(52:35):
Okay, these are things peopleneed to understand and know.
It isn't any more crazy thananything that you find in normal
earth religions.
I mean, you look at the Indiansand the gods that they support
and everything.
But here's the deal we respect.
We respect a person's viewpointon what their religious beliefs
(52:56):
are.
The Church of Scientology saysah, you can be a Scientologist
and you can believe this and allthis stuff, but you better
believe they're gonna invalidateand evaluate you for that
really quick.
Because all ScientologyScientology the subject does is
it enhances your awareness ofwhatever it is that you believe.
(53:16):
And if you change your mind,great, you don't change your
mind and it's true for you.
Guess what?
That's totally okay, becausewhat's true for you is true for
you, and that's the way it needsto be operated off of.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
And we have our final question Do you think
independent Scientology willmake it and if so, how?
Wow.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
Hmm, that's not a happy question.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
I'll answer it.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
It could have been yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, there's two directions that it can go.
It can continue on in thedirection that it is and that
there isn't anybody out thereoutside of us trying to make
this stuff as available andcheaply, if not pro bono for
people to get more auditorstrained, because every day there
(54:15):
are less and less and lessauditors on this planet.
The most valuable beings per LRHon the planet are auditors, and
I'm not just saying people thataudit other people.
What needs to be understood isif you wanted to make a cleared
planet now to me I don't thinkthat it's terribly real to make
(54:39):
a cleared planet in my lifetime.
It would be if you had oneperson take responsibility for
one other person and you justdid that.
You could have a cleared planetin six months to a year if
people did that.
That is one way that thingscould go positive, because one
auditor can only audit about,can only make somewhere in the
(55:01):
neighborhood of a couple hundredclears in their lifetime.
Given the amount of time thatit takes you're looking at 250
to 300 hours to make one clear Imean it's easy to do the math
and look at it and go, okay,yeah, things aren't looking real
great right now.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I mean the people that we are helping like.
Okay, so we choose the ablepeople.
Well, we, not we.
But as LRH says, you know.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Help the able become more able.
Yeah, so Less and less ablepeople every day due to all of
these over the counter and theseprescriptions and things like
that.
People taking all thesemedications the bad food.
I mean you look at COVID andwhat it's done with the jab and
all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
Yeah, and so if you have that and you look at the
people that we're currentlyhelping, I mean these people are
, they have their careers, theirdreams, they're, you know,
doing that.
So it's difficult to see how wecan use those kinds of people
(56:08):
who are already established andknow what they wanna do.
You know, obviously, they'redone, they're good, they just
wanna learn how to be do andhave more on their own.
So now it's like well, who isleft to forward the thing, who
is left to make auditors, etcetera?
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Right, right and LLRH says that.
You know, as people get older,they start to worry about what
they have to come back to you.
Are they gonna have Scientologyto come back to you?
If things don't change and wedon't pull off the things that
we wanna pull off, I don't thinkit's gonna be around in 50 or
100 years.
I really don't.
(56:49):
It'll fall the wayside, like somany other religious
philosophies and things likethat.
And that means that you can'tjust procrastinate.
You have to do something.
And I'm not saying this from aviewpoint of you know, come, do
services with us, pick up a book, start doing something about it
, stop putting it off.
(57:09):
Because the thing is is that,like he says, you have this
brief breath and eternity to dosomething about this and turn
the tides in this universe.
And this is it, folks.
You need to do something thislifetime.
This year it's 2024.
Now you need to get on thebridge, you need to get trained.
50% of the gains are fromtraining, 50% of the gains are
(57:32):
from process.
It doesn't take as long as youthink it does, it's just a
matter.
You can go full OT in less thana year and a half to two years
from the bottom of the bridge tothe top.
You can get trained as anauditor in six months time.
If you do it full time.
You can get trained in a yearpart time, and that doesn't mean
(57:54):
that you have to just go outand audit other people, but it
means that you can go out andhelp other people and you can
present Scientology to them andpique their interest and get
them involved and do a touchassist with them or something
like that, or teach them aboutthe ARC triangle.
Because that's what needs to bedone is people need to be made
aware of it.
And LRH says don't worry aboutthe degradation of society.
(58:16):
The worse society gets, themore people are gonna look for
something like Scientology, thesubject, or independent
Scientology, because they wantto better the condition that
they're existing in, becausethings have gotten worse.
Scientology will be there forthem.
They just need to know about it.
And the more you know about itand the more you use it, to the
(58:36):
degree your dynamics are goingto align and you're gonna find
that you're gonna be able tosurvive happier, much more well.
You're gonna be a lot moreserene and you're gonna be a lot
more cause over your life andthe cause of other people's
lives near you and that youassociate.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
So we are really ending this off in a high note.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, something can't .
It's inspirational.
Yeah, something can be doneabout the situation.
It's just a matter of makingthe decision and just doing it
every day, just like you decideto go to the gym.
It's really no different.
Spend an hour a day listeningto a lecture in traffic or
whatever.
Start getting this information,Take a course, get some
(59:16):
auditing, do self-analysis it'sfree.
Do some book one.
Quinn did 400 hours of book onewith his roommate.
Wow 400, I was actually over 400hours.
I mean it can be done andthat's free.
You can practically go clearjust with that if you want to.
I mean it takes a lot ofdedication and there's some
(59:36):
things that need to be cleanedup in between, but I mean the
options are there, it's just amatter of deciding to do it.
It's just that decision.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Absolutely Well, I don't have any more questions.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
All right, so we are at the 60 minute mark with this
podcast.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Thank you, lisa, for doing theinterview and we will get this
up and on the net to all of thepodcast services later this
afternoon.
We hope you enjoyed it, and formyself, jonathan Burke and for
Lisa Burke.
We'll talk to you soon withQuentin on our next podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Bye çŸç‰‡.
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