June 6, 2025 • 62 mins
In Episode 80 of Scoreboard, Chris Titley sits down with John Buchanan—former coach of the Australian men’s cricket team—to unpack how coaching, culture, and clarity of purpose shaped one of the most dominant teams in sporting history.
John reflects on his early days growing up with backyard cricket, the lessons from losing jobs, and the rise from teaching to transforming high-performance sport.
He dives into how he approached systems thinking, personal bests, and building lasting change—not just chasing silverware.
From VHS tapes to playbooks in India, from Queensland’s drought-breaking Shield win to a World Cup boot camp in Barbados, Buchanan takes us inside the method and the mindset.
🎯 His Scoreboard Moment? Queensland finally winning the Sheffield Shield in 1995—after 69 years of heartbreak—and the joy of taking the trophy on tour across the state.
Website for John
https://www.buchanancoaching.com/
📌 Subscribe for more stories from every corner of the game.
Follow us at:
w: www.scoreboardpodcast.com
insta: @scoreboardpod
y: https://www.youtube.com/@Scoreboardpodcast
p: Partnership opportunities – chris@scoreboardpodcast.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
From the arena to the front office, this is Scoreboard.
I'm Chris Tipley, and each episode brings you stories from
the game of sport, where mindset, money and meaning shape
what comes next. Athletes, coaches, owners and
business leaders unpack the moments that matter, because the
Scoreboard isn't just about winning.
It's about life beyond the game.Now let's get to this week's
(00:23):
episode. Hi, it's Chris Tipley here.
And on today's episode of SchoolBoard, the podcast, I'm joined
by John Buchanan. John, thanks for coming in and
having a chat. Pleasure, Chris.
John, we're gonna start by oh, what are we on Thursday, the 5th
of June, 137 in the afternoon. How's your Thursday been, John?
Oh. Well, it's been all.
(00:43):
I've been doing a little bit of exercise this morning, which is
nice, climbing to Mayor Kuther and looking out over the Vista
and the sunrise, which is alwaysa nice thing to do over Thursday
morning. And then a couple of meetings,
couple of catch ups with people that hopefully can do some
(01:04):
business with. And, and the other was a bit of
a review on our business sport Connection Network, how the
event went last night, what we can improve, what the next
months look like. So that's been sort of the day
so far. Fantastic.
Now a couple of things, mountainclimbing and and business.
I've had the pleasure of being part of your courses about
(01:25):
talking about Everest and and what you do.
Can you talk about what you do now and aligning that business
and sport analogy? Yeah, sure.
Look, the, the businesses aroundcoaching and leadership, it's
about, I guess, the lessons thatI've learnt through my life,
both as a parent, as a, as a young person growing up trying
(01:47):
to forge their way in a whole range of different ways and then
being involved as a professionalsports coach.
And so trying to take those lessons and then bring them into
the corporate world and really exploring, I think the power of
quality coaching as it can help leaders trying to lead, as it
(02:08):
can help individuals wanting to improve their life or their work
life or a combination of all. And also around teams, how to,
how to get the best from teams, how to keep them on track, how
to again, you know, chase their,their Everest and work out where
they're going in the right direction.
(02:29):
So that's really what the business is about.
And it it crosses all different industries, different people
and, and different ways of delivering that.
I was chatting to a couple of athletes in sort of individual
sports, but then there may be part of a broader team, for
instance, like a swimmer, part of the Olympic squad, they're
part of the Dolphins. When it comes to cricket, which
(02:51):
you're very versed in, there's individual aspects and team
aspects. As a as a player yourself and as
a young kid, which of you morph towards the team sport or the
individual sport? Guess I was always a team sport
and that's possibly because I was an only child, so I had
enough of the individual stuff growing up.
So I was always then hankering towards being part of a group.
(03:13):
So certainly really always enjoyed being part of a team
and, and whether that was cricket or rugby, tennis,
whatever it might have been. Yeah, just enjoyed that, that
camaraderie and working togetheras a group to try to achieve
something. And in terms of your own
sporting prowess as you're growing up and playing cricket,
(03:34):
cricket was the the chosen one which took you a little bit
further than the others. Why Cricket?
Well, it probably goes back to my early school days where at
school I was at a boarding school, but I wasn't a border.
I was a day boy and my parents would bring out a couple of the
borders of a weekend so that they could get out of school and
(03:59):
school food and the school routines and get a bit of home
cooking and a bit of, you know, love and care from quasi
parents. And at the same stage were quasi
brothers for me. And so we'd spent a lot of time
in the backyard playing cricket.My father built a homemade
(04:20):
cricket pitch from ultrawling porno Nets and TV antenna tubes
and and that's how we sort of played our Test match cricket
and using an old ABC cricket book and drawing names out of a
a hat, we put together our sidesand then and then play that.
(04:43):
So cricket was probably the sport that I gravitated to
because of that, I guess. But also, yeah, it was, it was
part and parcel of of my dreams and my imagination because you
could listen to that on the radio and listen to, you know,
(05:04):
the broadcasters telling their stories and, and painting
pictures of what cricket might have been over in England when
all you had was a radio and precious little black and white
TV. So that created, I think in me,
(05:24):
the passions and the dreams about cricket.
It certainly had that in other sports.
But somehow cricket just seemed to ignite something in there
that said that that's what I wasgoing to do, I was going to play
cricket for Australia. And that that was, that was my
dream as a young boy. When you're drawing those names
out and and listening to the radio, what are the names that
come back? What are the names and the
memories that come back to? Who do you always love to to
(05:46):
play you know as and also idolise and also on the
commentary team? Oh look, obviously always a lot
of Australians in there. So everywhere from the the
Bradmans to the Richardsons to the Hassetts to the Millers, the
Linwalls and, and of course my age therefore dates me a little
bit. Therefore I go back a little bit
further maybe. But it was always those players
(06:09):
and, and, and then the, I guess in my time, the current players
centred around the, the Tom Beavers and the Ken Mackay's and
the Peter Burgess, which are allQueensland players, the Wally
Grouts and then, you know, Simpson, Laurie, etcetera.
So it was a mixture of all those.
But it wasn't just Australian, you know, We'd always throw in a
(06:32):
few Indian names and few Englishnames, a few South African names
and, and then, yes, draw them out of the hat and away we went.
And then your, your playing days, you want to talk about
that and, and, and the idea potentially of being a coach and
when that spark came. Yeah, look, the the spark didn't
(06:55):
really come for a long time. It was, yeah, a dream of playing
cricket, being that that professional cricketer and
aspiring to wear the bag of green cap.
And when that one disappeared and I followed a path of sports
administration and I had a humanmovement studies degree and I
(07:16):
really then thought, well, maybethis is the career path for me
and I could one day be a, you know, an outstanding sports
administrator. And again pursued that for a
while till the job I was occupying at the time was
national director of Australian volleyball.
And they moved the office to Canberra and at that time we had
(07:37):
two young children and so said no, just can't do it, not going
to Canberra and I'll look for something else.
So I then got a diploma of teaching and moved into teaching
and teaching in TAFE and well that was good.
It wasn't necessarily the right fit, I didn't think for me or I
wasn't the right fit for it. So explored in the path of
(07:59):
becoming a lecturer. So using education plus sport
and marrying the two together and we went overseas and I
embarked on a master's in sportsadministration and sports
coaching at the University of Alberta and came back and
started lecturing of all places at the University of Canberra.
(08:19):
So. Sorry, you don't want to go
there. But we always wanted to come
back to Brisbane, so I was always searching for jobs up
here and eventually came back and managed a a national
programme called Aussie Sports, which was a joint programme of
the Sports Commission, the Department of Education, the
(08:40):
Department of Tourism, Sport andRacing.
But it was a programme that I really believe wholeheartedly in
because it was about sport, but it was actually bringing sport
to the level of children. So you're actually trying to
ensure that children which are generally upper primary or early
secondary, that their first experiences in sport were really
(09:01):
enjoyable. So in other words, we modified
rules, we modified equipment andimportantly I guess we were
trying to modify some of the behaviours on the on the side of
sports fields so that the children were really just
enjoying the freedom to play this thing called sport.
(09:23):
And and you've seen some codes now obviously with things like
Oz kick that sort of adapt that and and make that a, a, a huge
thing. And you've seen some sports not
do it so well. So you must be kind of abreast
of that now a little bit and to see what sports have risen ahead
in terms of what you are almost establishing early on.
Well, it was that, I mean, this was the beginnings of Canyon
(09:44):
cricket. It was the beginnings of mini
rugby and, and, and all sports had the the various titles and
yeah, look, I think again, most sports, most sports have adapted
that pretty well. I understand that children these
days or any days for that matter, but they, they need
(10:06):
things at their level that they can experience at their level
and, and through modifications of rules and equipment and so
on. It really means, it means that
sports accessible to, to all children of all abilities.
And, and so, yeah, therefore that's why I think sport and I
(10:29):
always enjoy sport or physical activity.
It's so important to a child's development.
And I currently with a couple ofpartners, I have a business in
India which has taken an Australian business, which is
called Ready Steady Go Kids. Fantastic programme.
And I, I got to see this becausemy grandchildren started being
(10:53):
involved in the programme here in Brisbane and that's where I
got to see it. And I thought, wow, this is a
very, very good programme. It's scientifically based and it
it introduces children to 10 different sports over the course
of term where they just get the sample the sport, but again,
modified equipment, wonderful instructors on the floor and
(11:16):
again, they enjoy what they're doing.
And so with a couple of businesspartners, we've we've taken that
into India oh and and bought a franchise there or master
franchise there. Of course we bought that just
pre COVID. So that was really good timing
for. So for about 2 1/2 years nothing
happened while. COVID.
(11:37):
You know, did it's thing. So it it's going and and we have
our Indian business partners. So again, it, it's they're
designed to for 1 1/2 to 6 year old children to get them to
understand basic movement patterns and, and coordination,
balance, agility in a, in a very, very safe environment.
(12:01):
And we use in India, we use 13 sports rather than 10 here in
Australia. And we've added in three Indian
sports, which are Kabadi, Coco and, and yoga.
So yeah, it, it's, I think like everything, whether it be maths
(12:22):
or music or language, but in this case sport, the earlier
that young children can get exposed to it in a very safe,
encouraging and supportive way. It it's, it's lifelong learning.
It's something that will always,they will always have, whether
(12:44):
they continue to use it for competition or whether they just
continue to use it as as a meansin in this case of activity,
physical activity, there's everychance that they will because
they've enjoyed the experience and they've got the foundations.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I was just chatting to Tim
McKinnon recently who's the CEO of Play HQ and they do all the,
(13:06):
the infrastructure, the digital infrastructure behind grassroots
cricket and AFL, etcetera. And he was, you know, talking
about the, the, the challenges and distractions of kids these
days with social media and, and gaming and Roblox and and
Fortnite, etcetera. A lot of a different challenge
than when we were growing up. John is in more about where the
local club was and and and I suppose who were playing and
(13:28):
whether there was a competition from grassroots sport was you
were developing there to then getting into a high performing,
yeah, pre professional era, but certainly coaching high
performing teams. When did that come about in in
terms of cricket and and your early kind of views of becoming
a coach per SE as as a profession?
(13:49):
Yes, I I think, yeah, we were alluding to that, that I was
sort of working and coaching andinto that Aussie sport
programme. And it was about June 94 when
the Queensland Bulls job was advertised and Jeff Thompson had
been there for four years, I think, by that stage and been
doing a very good job. And so I was a bit sceptical
(14:10):
whether or not this was a real advertisement or whether it's
one of those ones that you, you know, you sort of have to do,
but you know, who's going to getthe job.
But I was assured by Ian Healy, who was captain at the time,
that no, it was for real. So that's when I kind of look
back on everything that I was doing and I realised that in a
sense when I theoretically had been learning more about
(14:33):
coaching and bit of psychology and you know, a bit of strategy
and, and organisational structures and so on.
I've been doing it by all my work because I've been working
with various teams within the businesses or the, the, the
roles that I had. I'd still kept an association
(14:54):
with the sport and, and having come back to Brisbane and, and
doing this Aussie sport job, would have gone back to
university and started coaching back there for a, for a couple
of seasons. So there seem to be a number of
things that suggested to me thatmaybe I can coach and maybe I
have been without actually realising that's what I've been
(15:15):
doing. And of course, by that stage,
when the job came around, we hadfive children.
So there's, there's nothing likeparenting to give you some
insight into coaching. So then, yeah, I, I took the
step to apply. I, I, I kind of spent time
trying to understand me as a coach because again, I was never
(15:39):
going to be able to compete against the likes of a Jeff
Thompson and, and all the, the, the kind of former players that
are applied because my cricket pedigree was nowhere near as as
deep and as extensive and as impressive as most of the other
applicants. So what was it that I was going
to bring that would be differentand would be seen to be by those
(16:01):
at Queensland Cricket to be the right person for the job?
So it, it just took me down thatpath of understanding me,
understanding the principles, myvalues, cornerstones and how I'd
go about doing the job. So that's where it started in,
in June 94. And we were, you know, fortunate
in that first year that we won the Sheffield Shield and, and I,
(16:23):
I guess that cemented my path asa professional coach, but it
probably more cemented my knowledge of myself as a coach
and, and the power of quality coaching.
So that's continued to be my life since then.
I spent 4, four years with Queensland and then another
(16:46):
nearly eight years with the Australian cricket team, a
couple of seasons over in India with IPL and in that last period
with the Australian team, I was setting up this business which
I'm currently doing, which has become a success.
Coaching, which where we startedwas it's all about coaching and
leadership and the power of coaching to deliver on, you
know, high performance, high performance teams, leaders being
(17:09):
able to create that and individuals that sit inside that
and understand how they can perform at their best.
Do you think when you, you, you took that job?
I think it was the 69th season that Queensland had been in and
and hadn't won the the SheffieldShield.
Did you think that, you know, asa challenge you thought, oh,
actually there's there's something here to break this
cycle? Or were you thinking, oh, well,
(17:30):
I'll give it a go. But you know, everyone's tried
in the past and well, if it if we don't win the next couple of
years, at least I've given it a good shot.
Well, I went into it on the basis that or wasn't there to
win the the Holy Grail, or at least that wasn't the the key
(17:52):
objective. The key objective for me was to
say, look, what we'll do here isthat we'll put Queensland in a
position where we can dominate the domestic competition for the
next 10 years. And we'll do that through
changing system and process. And somewhere in there though, I
(18:14):
believe we'll win the Sheffield Shield.
I wouldn't be able to say when, but the important thing is that
we'll actually understand a little bit more about how we did
that so that we will be in a farbetter position than to be able
to continue to do that, whether or not that means you win again.
But it means that we're going tochallenge and as I said, we're
(18:36):
going to dominate the competition for the next 10
years. So that's how I went into it on
on the basis that yes, I guess Idid believe that it would
happen, but it was more about actually setting up a high
performance system that would sustain itself and that could
then continue to sustain itself over a period of time.
(18:59):
I'm curious to know the 10 yearsthe the big hairy audacious goal
is that something which was has always been like a goal of yours
in terms of time. Some people might be 3510 like
it's 10 to something that kind of sits well with you.
Yeah, look, it's not necessarilya timeline that I had.
So when I went to the into the Australian team, it was about
(19:22):
telling them we're going on a journey to Everest together.
And that's where the Everest concept or my Everest concept
sort of started. And that journey, I said, I
didn't really know how long thatwould take, but the principle of
it was that we were going to change the way the game was, was
played and that we wanted everybody else to look at us.
And, and again, a sense of dominating your, your
(19:44):
marketplace. And then also, and, and, and
that was assisted because I had a, a very good relationship or,
you know, it developed over time, but with Stephen Wall,
because his mantra was around taking the road less travel.
So he wanted to do things differently to everybody else.
And, and so did I. And as I said, we will by the
(20:08):
time, as I said, that we finished our time as a group
together, that we would have changed the game and hopefully
we'd be given a, a really. Yeah, a good label if you like
about what we did a bit like. The Invincibles in Australian
cricket history, so that was kind of the starting point.
(20:28):
So it wasn't necessary timeline,but there was still always this
vision that whatever we're doing, we're going to do better
than anybody else. And the relationship between the
coach and a captain and having agood captain, can you talk about
that relationship with how closeit becomes?
You become mates, you might become godparents of each
other's children or something. Or is that a little bit coach,
(20:50):
captain? Look, I think in any business
and, and let's take it that Australian cricket team as a, as
a small wheel within the big business of Cricket Australia.
And, and their vision at the time was and, and maybe it still
is, I, I don't know these days, but it's vision at the time was
to make cricket Australia's favourite summer sport.
(21:11):
And, and so for me, that's that's an admirable vision, but
it didn't sit with the cricket team in my mind.
So that's why I went about trying to create this vision of
Everest and what it meant. Because if we could chase that
down and head in that direction and get our wheel working, well
then that would help Cricket Australia do what it needed to
(21:33):
do. And so a function of all that
is, is cohesion, harmony, relationships.
But one of the critical links and all that is the captain and
the coach or in a business sense, it might be the CEO and
the chairman of the board or it might be, you know, CEO and ACFO
(21:58):
or the senior leadership team. And if those link or that link
is tenuous, if it's disconnects at different stages, then a team
or a group might be successful for a short period of time, but
won't be successful over a longer period of time.
(22:18):
So that relationship between captain and coach, in this
particular case in the cricket team needed to be strong.
And, and it didn't mean that Steve and I agreed on everything
all the time. And, and, and indeed, we had
different ways of doing what we need to do, but our philosophy,
our principles, our values were,were well aligned.
And I think we were both of verygood support for each other in
(22:41):
terms of him being the captain and leading the team and, and on
field running the show. And then from my point of view,
maybe help accept longer term strategies and, and therefore or
longer term goals and then longer term strategies and then
bringing that down game by game.And and also delving into the
whole world of I guess analyticsand data and where all that
(23:06):
fitted into the overall mix about taking this team in the
direction that we thought it should be able to, to go and
achieve and achieve and. I was just thinking about the
the timing of all that. Google was probably starting to
happen around the early 2000s and people are starting to use
search engines and the Internet was coming around probably
(23:26):
around the early 2000s. But you mentioned there about
data and strategy. What was it about you thinking
that actually there is a lot of data in cricket?
How do we capture it all? Not only do we capture all, how
do we use it? Yeah, no, you're right.
I mean, I, I think I would find it hard, well, certainly harder
(23:47):
coaching now than by the time I finished.
So I finished it, as I said, 2007 with the Australian team,
2009 in India. But at that stage there wasn't
really. Yeah, the Internet was chugging
along a little bit maybe. I don't even know.
(24:09):
I don't even think Facebook or any of them.
No, I think it was 07 maybe. I think Facebook or a 607 came
about, yeah. Or whatever, whatever and
whatever it's Remember there wasanother.
Myspace. My yes, that's right.
Yep. So you know, to some degree
warning was our our our, our guide to, you know, how you use
(24:33):
your phones and how you text. But other than that, there,
there, there wasn't the same social media.
So I, I think that's an incredible complication to, to
coaching these days. But back in 94 when I took on
the role, that was one of the systems and process that we
really wanted to change. Because my view was that there's
(24:57):
lots of knowledge and expertise in the room, in the room, in
inverted commas that you know, whether you're in the dressing
room, whether you're on a training paddock or whether
you're on the field. All that knowledge and
experience that that is held within the players that are
there some being, you know, likea Healy or an Allen border and
come back or Carl Rackerman, youknow, lots of experience.
(25:19):
So we wanted that. But at the same stage that's
reliant on them, their memories and their views and their
thoughts, which is great. But there's a lot of gaps in
between. So how do I, how do I fill in
the gaps? And so that's where with one of
our assistant coaches, Jimmy Hunter, his brother was a
(25:41):
Microsoft programme at the time.We said, well, there's this
computer stuff happening. You know, what can that do for
us? How can that help us capture
information that would be relevant to the group?
And so that's where we explored that whole basis of, of data
capture and then aligning it to,to vision and then being able to
(26:03):
utilise that either in team meetings or individual feedback
and importantly, analysis beginning to stack up game after
game. So we could be in a better
position to analyse our, our opposition.
So that when you went into a team meeting or you wanted to
(26:23):
use the experience of everybody in the room, you had that, but
but now you could actually supplement that with a lot of
accurate data and information. There must have been so much
data to potentially choose from when it comes to cricket, Like
you could do every ball and where every ball lands,
etcetera. How did you kind of dumb it down
(26:44):
to a point of going this is useful, this is actually useful
data. Yes, look and I mentioned to me
how to before and we started back in the the VHS days.
That's, that's where it was. And, and, and so, you know, at
the end of a Shield game, we'd have 24 hours of, of vision.
So we'd actually record what, what happened straight down the
(27:05):
wicket and we'd have 24 hours ofvision.
Then I'd, I'd go back into the game.
And so Jim, listen, you know, I need this, this and this and
this and this. And so poor old Jim then had to
take the 24 hours of vision, sift through that and then
transfer it onto another VHS type so we could then actually
show that through the, through the course of the game.
So even then there was a, if youlike, a dumbing down trying to
(27:28):
pick out the highlights of the game that were important to us
because of what we did and maybesome other parts of the game
that we didn't do so well. And so therefore there these are
areas that we individually or collectively can improve upon.
And so that that's really where it grew from.
And I guess like all people these days, there is, as you
(27:53):
say, just an incredible wealth of data, Probably way too much,
just way too much. And, and that was feedback that
I would get from the players at different times when we'd run
our meetings or I'd provide themindividual feedback.
You know, most, most players just want to go and play.
(28:14):
Most staff members just want to turn up today and do their job
and get it done and do the best they possibly can and then and
then then leave it, you know, because business in competition
every day, whereas sport, you know, has a bit of a luxury.
There's a bit of downtime beforeyou move into your game, play
your game and then you review and then you go back into
preparing for the next. So a lot of times it's still
(28:38):
trial and error, you know, because some individuals or some
situations require less information or require more
information, or there are certain things that you want to
highlight that maybe because you're involved in it as a play,
you don't necessarily see you, you see your performance, you
see some result, but there are other things going on that might
(29:00):
be important not only to you as an individual, but as a group
over a period of time. And an example, an example of
that was towards the end of of my career, in fact, it was our
World Cup 2007 in the West Indies.
And I took the players on a, on a boot camp before that, which
(29:22):
to many that was, you know, something that they really
didn't look forward to. But by the end of it, I think it
worked out pretty well. But the reason for that was that
I guess I was reflecting even back to 2004 on, on, on a couple
of performances and then between2003 World Cup and therefore
(29:45):
this 2007 World Cup, I just believe there are certain things
that we really needed to change around.
We needed to at least be aware of.
And and so that was kind of the,the, the process about trying to
provide them the information andthe tools without overburning
(30:06):
them with, with, you know, too much information, but enough to
get them to understand that there are certain things that I
think we're missing or we're shortcoming that were making us
vulnerable at certain times, certainly in a one day game.
And so we, we basically grabbed that information.
We provided the players their own little Playstations, so one,
(30:30):
they could fiddle around and play games.
But we knew at the same stage wecould put information in there
that we needed for them to actually look at and analyse.
So that when we came to games orcame to meetings or whatever it
was, we were well prepared to dothat.
When it comes to high performance and the data, do you
how much time did you spend on your own, A individual data, B
(30:51):
team data versus looking at yourcompetition and looking across
in the line going what are they doing?
Yeah, as I said right at the outset, basically we were there
to change the game, so we wantedother people to be looking at
what we were doing. So there was always an idea of
(31:11):
what the opposition we're doing,trying to find, you know,
strengths, weaknesses, where we could utilise our skills to
exploit their weaknesses. But ultimately you'd always try
to bring it back to yourselves that you know, what it is that
you were doing well, what it is that individuals in the team are
doing well, how they could improve their game, how we could
(31:34):
improve our game. And that was really, I guess,
always the emphasis, you know. So when I coaching business
these days, I'll always try to take either the team or the
leader or the individuals back to their personal best.
Just like any athlete, you know,when they perform at their best,
(31:55):
what is it that that they're doing?
Because it just seems to me that's where you want to start
from that that should be your starting block.
If you understand that, if you know how you do that.
And then if you know in game or in competition how you adapt to
what the game throws at you. Because again, like any game
plan, it's terrific to have a game plan and, you know,
(32:18):
understand our opposition and under understand our skills
well, because we're dealing in, in human behaviour.
Very little of that follows the script.
So it's nice to have, but it's, it's about what you how you deal
with what's exactly in front of you.
And so that becomes part and parcel then of, you know, that
(32:42):
knowing when you're at your best, what do you do?
Because it's what's inside your control that matters because we
don't control how our oppositionare going to play.
How are wickets going to play? What are the conditions overhead
going to be like? What are the umpires going to
do? What's what's the crowd
involvement like? You know, what's the traffic
like getting to the, the ground,whatever it might be.
(33:04):
But what we do control is, is inourselves.
And and so if we understand thatand we're in a better position
to give ourselves best chance ofgetting near our PB or exceeding
our PB, no guarantees, but but at least if we understand that's
a good starting point. And you've got 11 players on the
ground at once, and A and A and a 12th man as well.
But getting each of those 11 players up to the level of their
(33:27):
personal best must have been a little tricky.
Maybe someone gets 100, but the team loses.
Maybe someone gets a 5 for the team loses.
How do you, how did you get thatEveryone elevated the processes
and I suppose sometimes some personalities will rise above to
the top a little bit. Yeah.
Look, there's always, always a fluctuation happening in it.
And, you know, I guess one of the measures of a very
(33:51):
successful team is that if I look back on, on say Game 1, you
know, you might have two or three players that if, if you
gave it a percentage ranking, they might be, you know, 100% or
at least 80% of, of what APB might be or what an expectation
of their performance should be. Then you might have another, you
(34:13):
know, 3 or 4 that are sitting around 50 to 70%.
And then you'll have another, the rest who are somewhere
between probably 0 and, and 30%.But the important thing about a
a very good team is it's not those people with those
percentages. They're not the same people
(34:33):
every, every game. So performance will fluctuate.
And so therefore, going back to what I was saying before, what
becomes important is that each player gives them, gives
themselves best chance to perform at their best.
So again, another saying for me is that I want them to be their
(34:56):
own best coach. You know, I want them to
completely understand how they go about playing at their best
because again, that gives them the best chance of doing that.
And so that's what we set out todo.
You know, if you've got 11 players on the field or you've
got a touring party of 15 or 17 or wherever it might be, you're,
you're constantly trying to ensure that each person knows
(35:19):
what they need, need to prepare and then knows what they need to
do in game. And so you're trying to make
sure that that that is occurringnow, of course, yeah, always got
limited time, limited resources to do that.
Therefore the players also need to understand their mates next
to them, what they are looking for at the same stage.
(35:39):
So how do we, how do we all makesure that in in some way, shape
and form, we may not necessarilyget everything we want when we
want it, but how do we all work together to try to make sure
that the collective is pretty close to what it is that they
need prior going into a, into a,into a guy?
And John with a, you mentioned One day Internationals and the
(36:01):
game is changing a little bit interms of high scores and and
different ways of thinking. How much sort of did you go
about testing ways of thinking and looking at now the modern
day with with different ways of thinking?
How did you go about that? I suppose in trialling and
error? Yeah, a few different things.
Yeah, look, again, bit like social media, it was a slightly
(36:22):
simpler arrangement back in our day so that there was only test
matches in one day and T20 had just really started to come in.
And and that's why I say I was involved in the first couple of
IP LS in 2000 and eight 2009. So yeah, look, in essence, I
think all games, no matter what the sport are the same, doesn't
(36:45):
matter how long they take. Because really to perform, you
need to perform in terms of whatis in front of you.
And that means you can have yourplan whether you're playing in
in cricket since a short format game AT20 game or a one day game
to a longer game, you know, a four day game or a five day
(37:06):
game. It still comes down to the fact
that it's it's still a one ball game.
It's just one ball. I mean, you can only bowl 1
ball, you can only face one ball, you can only feel one
ball. So the one ball then is, is
obviously placed in the context of the format.
So one ball in 120 balls of AT20innings is, you know, just under
(37:30):
1%. You take one ball in a 300 ball
game, which is 50 / / a game. So now we're down to point O 3%
of of its impact, if you like, or of its contribution to the
outcome of a game. And then if you place that one
ball in a, you know, 90 over game or 90 over day against, we
(37:50):
get you get the difference. But the principle is still the
same that you can only deal withthat one ball.
Now. Therefore, as a bowler, bat,
fieldsman, we're keeper, how do I adapt my skills to what the
game requires at this moment in time against that one ball?
(38:14):
So therefore, as a player, have I now a menu that I can choose
from that enables me to best compete to win that moment?
And therefore, if it's a longer game, maybe I have a more
(38:40):
conservative set of or a mindset.
And therefore when I dive into my menu, I only look for more
conservative options that will win me the moment as I shorten
that right down to T20. Then at in that moment, to win
(39:01):
that moment, maybe I now need tomake sure that I've got a
broader menu so that I now can choose something that will be
less conservative, possibly morerelevant to the format of the
game, and therefore be able to employ that skill.
(39:24):
But it's still about adaptation.It's still about the decision
making process. It's still about actually having
a, a clear mind at that moment so that you are able then to,
you know, it sounds like a long process and this is all
happening in a split second, of course.
(39:44):
But you are able with a, with a clear mind and to, to jump into
all your experiences. And out of that, out of that
experience experiential databasethat you hold in your, your mind
because you've trained so much and it's, you know, a bit of
muscle memory, then you go in and you make the right choice of
(40:05):
action. Behaviour that you need to take
right at that moment. Then of course it goes back to
then your ability to execute, which is really a technical and
your physical skills that you'vetried to as well.
And hopefully those two coalesceto give you an opportunity to
win that moment. And then if you get through that
moment, you get to face the nextmoment or you get to deliver the
next moment. But it's it, the principles are
(40:28):
still the same. It's just, yeah, it is a bit
contextual and it's about understanding how I therefore
adapt my skills to what the gamerequires me to do right at this
moment. And through all those moments,
you get to a maybe a pivotal moment like a last ball of the
day or there's a one run to win off the last ball, etcetera.
(40:50):
As a, as a coach, did you see some of these moments and, and
you're like, OK, anything could happen here.
I'm not on the field. And how did that make you feel?
Well, that's, that's, that's coaching, that's leadership.
That's, you know, your, your role is well long gone by that
stage, meaning that hopefully the sort of environments that
(41:12):
you set up as a leader and a coach, a wonderful learning
environment so that individual players or groups at certain
times feel comfortable at that time.
They want to be there at those times so that therefore they can
demonstrate through their skillsthat they're capable of winning
(41:33):
those those pivotal moments. As you might say, those pivotal
moments have become pivotal simply because of the outcomes
of all the other moments that have led up to that.
But nonetheless, they, they, they are pivotal moments.
And so hopefully as a coach, youdon't have any direct control
over that. You're indirect control has been
what you've actually created in the first place to, you know,
(41:56):
challenge individuals always by ways of scenarios and, and, and
just the the pressures that theymay face at any moment through
any game, but are ready to deal with that because, yeah, that's
just something that now becomes really one something that they
(42:18):
want to do where they want to beand to of of feel like it's just
a natural thing and and their their skills are there to
support them to do it. Did you ever have a scenario
where you thought the team pretty much just gave everything
that they possibly gave and could give in those moments and,
and, and thinking about scenarioand then you've you've come up
(42:39):
short and as a coach, how do youkind of keep that as progress
forward as opposed to a loss? Yeah, look, there are and you
know, and, and, and, and a lot of times some of those results
are the ones that are very close, that you, you just got so
close and then just missed out at the end.
(43:00):
But again, I think for me, it was always and, and certainly
when I started with the the Queensland team, because as you
said it earlier in the interviewthat they hadn't won for 69
years. So there are a lot of ghosts of
the past that would would horn our dressing rooms at different
times because it was always about this Holy Grail.
(43:21):
It was always about winning the Sheffield Shield.
And of course that's the result that you would like.
But for me, the more that we focus on the result, the further
it got away from us. And, and so in your question, my
job was always to try to bring it back to a process, try to
understand, you know, when we play well, what is it that we're
(43:42):
doing? If we're not playing well, what
is it that we're overlooking? But it's always about what's in
our control. So if we, you know, played well
and missed out, well, let's go back in and look at what we've
done, what we've done, you know,take the result away.
What have we done? Is there something in there that
we could improve upon? Is there something there that we
(44:03):
can learn from for the next timethat we face a similar
situation? So maybe that the result is
reversed. So it's always trying to, yes,
understand result because again,sports build on winning and
losing. There's, there's nothing, I
mean, you can get draws, but nonetheless, the, the, the rules
and, and, and everything else isset up to win or lose.
(44:24):
So it was always then about understanding, yes, we've got to
get results, but how do we do that?
How do we do that? And if we can understand that,
we're in a better position to get those results.
And then every day is different for every human being and some
days we wake up a little tired and some days we wake up a
little grumpy and some days we wake up really happy.
With the the energy flowing through the the squad that you
(44:47):
had, you would have had people where confidence was low and you
had to be empathetic to others. The how did you manage the
feelings with the players sometimes?
Well, I mean, yes, that's so true.
And as we said before, we're allhuman beings and it's human
behaviour. And so that that's always going
to be the case. So yeah, as a coach, you, you're
(45:09):
always there for all your players, always there for all
your players. And, and whether that's support,
whether that's guidance, whetherthat's reprimand, you know,
whatever it might be, you're there to try to help your
player. That's what you're trying to do
all the time. Or in business, you're staff
(45:29):
member. They, they need to know that you
care about them. They need to know that
irrespective of whether they're getting a, a bit of a reprimand
or it's, it's designed for a purpose to help them to be
better at what they're doing and, and hopefully perform
better in their role or their position.
(45:51):
But it shouldn't always come down to the couch.
So it, it should be in a, in a high performance team that if a
player is down, then other players are aware of that, that
I mean, some, some signs are quite visible, obviously, but
others aren't. And, and therefore, when I talk
about, you know, understanding your own game, being your own
(46:15):
best coach, then it's important that that's shared with others,
not just kept to yourself. So that if that is the case, if
somebody's down on confidence, if somebody's not well, or if
there's something happened outside of the dressing room
for, for external reasons or external happenings, then
(46:37):
hopefully there are lots of other people around them that
can help them through that. And sometimes, you know, the
coach is exactly not the right person.
I found that a number of times that, you know, if I wanted to,
you know, have or make a change or have have, you know, a
(46:58):
different outcome or needed somesomething to be precisely said
to individuals. If, if I was the one to do that,
then it was never going to be heard, you know, either due to
the, our relationship or due to a set of circumstances.
(47:20):
And, and So what I need to always find was, well, who's the
right person at this point in time to do that?
How do we actually deal with that person at the moment?
And as I say, who, who could be the right people?
So you'll hear a lot of people talk about fit in in a team or
(47:41):
an organisation. You'll hear them talk about
culture, you'll hear them talk about cohesion.
Well, that's kind of what I'm saying here, that that for me,
when you put together a team that there are assistant
coaches, you know, there's a whole range of players and there
are other people that you'll bring in at different times.
And so it, it is always important that whoever comes
(48:05):
into that mix is always going tochange the dynamics because of
who they are and, and their own personalities and their own
biases. But importantly, that change of
dynamics is something that's notgoing to be retrograde to the
group, but it's only going to add value to the group.
So in the end, yeah, coach definitely is there to help
(48:27):
everybody and try to care for everybody.
But in the end, there are so many things going on in in a
group of people that if everybody takes that
responsibility, then it's a it'sa much easier job to keep that
place as harmonious as possible.Did you get a bit of bit of
(48:47):
stick, I suppose, from trying tochange the dynamic from a
broader group, I suppose, or saywe don't want to do the boot
camp as an example, Like this isridiculous as a joke and you're
like, well, this is the way I want to do it.
This is the buy in, you know, I need.
And then obviously, you know, ultimately you won that World
Cup, for instance, as an example, but did you get that
(49:08):
quite a bit? Oh, look, there's always
resistance, you know, And I, andI think and, and not necessarily
always from the same people or, or to the same degree, you know,
but, but that's only human nature.
Because again, what we're sayinghere is that if we're going to
be a high performance team and for me, high performance means
(49:30):
that you're, you're dominating as I say, your marketplace, but
you're doing it over a long period of time under all sets of
conditions. Not just once.
Not winning one premiership, you're winning multiple
premierships, right? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. If that's where you want to be,
then individuals, coaches included, cannot remain in their
comfort zone. They cannot remain as they were
(49:50):
or as they are if if they want to step into the future and be
something different. So therefore that means change.
Therefore that means challenge. Therefore that means doing
things differently. And of course, we all don't
necessarily enjoy that. You know, there are things that
we don't understand why they're happening, no matter how well
(50:12):
they're explained, because, you know, things are working well
now. So why change?
Why change? And, and so again, I guess part
of my saying was, you know, likeone of those cliches, if it
ain't broke, break it. Because to me, we're, we're
always seeking what's better. You know, I wrote wrote the book
(50:33):
if better is possible. And I always believe that
everything can be improved. And if something can't be
improved, no matter what you howyou disassemble it and then
reassemble it, then then you've got something that's really
special and you need to hang on to that in some way, shape or
form. But generally in the mind, most
things can be improved if you keep seeking that, you know, And
(50:56):
I guess I've just been going back over David Brailsford and
what do you do with British Cycling?
And that was just, you know, sort of marginal game theory.
So, you know, he'd break everything down and, and then
try to improve everything just that 1%.
(51:16):
And if you could do that across the whole system and a whole set
of processes, boy, what a difference that makes to an
individual, to a group of people, to an organisation.
And looking back at what you didas a coach for Queensland and as
a coach for Australia, you set out to achieve X and you know
from my point of view you achieved X.
(51:36):
Did you achieve what you wanted to achieve?
Being the the coach there and and looking back, how does it
make you feel? Yeah, look, in fact, I was
having this conversation last night because I always believe
there's a shelf life in, in coaching or I did then and I
still do now. And you know, with Queensland,
(51:57):
I, I was there four years and, and I was having, we, we used to
have a pretty informal coaching group, you know, from Aussie
rules to rugby league, rugby union, basketball, swimming, you
know, a group was just get together and toss a few things
around. And I remember talking to Wayne
Bennett about this at the time and I said, I just believe
(52:20):
there's a shelf life of coaching.
I, I think I might have, you know, one more year and then
it's, it's time to move on. Because in my mind, the players
needed change. They needed new eyes, new
perspectives, new ways of doing things and, and hopefully build
on what I'd put in place. And he, he, he looked at me and
he said, mate, you're, you're kidding, aren't you?
(52:42):
You're the best coach going around.
So why, why would you want to move on?
And as I said, for those very reasons, I just believe it's
telling me, he said, look, I'll tell you what happened at the
Broncos, either I go or the players go.
And he said I'm not going. So he had he had a way of, of
him reinventing himself, which was in a sense not reinventing
(53:04):
himself, but changing over the dynamics of his group, keeping
some core people in his group and then making sure that those
who came in really fitted into the environment that that he had
in the way that he went about coaching and those that he
didn't think could, they were moved on.
So yeah, for me it was, there's a certain length of time.
(53:30):
And after that time it, it, it is the time to to look
elsewhere. And I was fortunate in a
coaching sense that that the Australian job came up and I was
able to jump into that. But again, same thing, you know,
by the time 2007 came around, I'd already given crude
Australia sort of a 20 month plan after we'd lost the Ashes
(53:51):
in 2005, a 20 month plan about how this would occur.
And I was exiting at that time if given the opportunity.
And so, you know, fortunately everything rolled out well, but
nonetheless, they then had a, a,a good opportunity to work out
the whole succession planning process for them.
(54:12):
So that hopefully change was wasrelatively seamless.
And looking back at the the record that everyone talked
about, the 16 consecutive wins, when it comes to Everest, where
where was Everest? Along there was it 1213141516.
How do you work out every? Yeah, No, it wasn't really again
(54:34):
based on result you know, or albeit that that was a record
and I think it's still it still stands.
And so so to do a number of other one day records that we
have. So the results were good,
there's no doubt about that. And, and well, not only good,
outstanding, they, they can still stand.
But really it was about the the way that we went about our
(54:55):
cricket that that was the Everest, you know, that was the
Everest that was about yeah, howwe how we batted, how we
fielded, how we bowled, how we planned, how we conducted
ourselves. Were we were we not only models
(55:15):
on field, but were we models offfield?
You know, So it was, it was really that was all
encompassing. And, and, and I remember going
back to results at the last interview when we won the 2007
World Cup in in Barbados. And, and I was asked by a
(55:37):
journey there, you know, becauseagain, I think all coaches would
like to coach the perfect game when the perfect game is to me,
we have a game plan and you justenact that perfectly and you
therefore you get the result that you're looking for.
And so I said, look, I don't think we got close a few times.
(56:00):
I don't think I ever coached theperfect game, but we got close.
But I said we had the perfect team.
And, and what I meant by that was that I believed all players
in McGrath at that stage, that was his last, last game for
Australia as well. We're always looking to improve
themselves. They, they were always looking
(56:21):
to try to find Ways and Means that they could be better.
And, and so to me, that was the perfect team.
They've challenged themselves and they challenged other people
in the group. And, and that's why it was such
a, you know, an outstanding group over that period of time.
And John, we talked about moments.
The question I asked my guest istheir all time favourite
sporting moment. It can involve yourself and
(56:44):
your, your group, etcetera. But it also can not be that as
well and and for someone like myself, there's lots of moments
and Steve Walls hitting the century off the last ball in O3
and you've got Kathy Freeman. There's so many highlighted
Australia, not just Australia but global sporting moments.
What's your all time favourite sporting moment?
Yeah, do go on, because a littlebit older than you, there's a
(57:05):
heck of a lot of sporting moments that are in there.
Mind you, being a bit older, I've forgotten a lot too.
But yeah, there's so many thingsthat flashed by very, very
quickly. You know, 1 is at school winning
a a premiership. You know, that was incredible.
One of my sons winning a premiership when he was a
(57:26):
Gregory terrorist team, You know, so and you mentioned
Catherine Freeman, what happenedto be just by chance happened to
be there that night to see that that was amazing and and, and so
many other things. But I suppose the one that that
probably jumps out is again, when you can achieve at first,
you know, when you when you're the first to do something,
(57:48):
that's always pretty special. So I guess I'm drawn to the
first Sheffield Shield win for Queensland in in 95 where, yeah,
we went through that season and had our ups and downs and almost
didn't make the final, but finally had it at home and then
and then just played an outstanding game of cricket to
to win that Sheffield Shield andthe result was amazing.
(58:10):
But it was the scenes after that, both at the ground and
then probably over the next few weeks as we took the Sheffield
Shield around the state. That one probably at the moment
in in in this brief interview, probably ranks near the top.
It was also Rupert Mccall's favourite moment too.
(58:32):
From from the Hill, yes, yes. So he talked about that in his
interview recently that it was his, his favourite moment.
I've got. I've got one final question,
John, you, you, you mentioned about your son and your son is
your sons have played high performing sports.
As a parent, how did you go about seeing all these high
performers, I think at the at the highest level in the world
(58:53):
in in your area with cricket, etcetera, and also other sports
and seeing the attitudes. How did you go as a parent?
And what's some suggestions to parents out there that have got
kids that are loving their sportand and may end up becoming high
performing athletes? Yeah, look, it's, it's a bit of
a cliche, but from, from my point of view, I'd always just
(59:13):
try to stand on the sidelines and and watch what was going on,
observe how they were going, butleave it to the the coach of the
time. Now, I might have agreed with
the coach of the time what they were doing, but it wasn't my
place. My place was just there to be
supportive of my son and my daughters, whatever they were
doing. And then, you know, at the end
(59:35):
of the game, wander over, congratulate coach, congratulate
the team. And then, you know, on on the
way home or wherever it's appropriate, just have a bit of
a chat with with my daughter or my son and see what they were
thinking, what they were feelingand how they responded and what
was good and what wasn't good. And, and then just try to listen
(59:58):
and maybe provide some advice here and there.
And then of course if. Whatever it was, if they wanted
to go and do something, then I'dalways be if I was around
because in those days I, I certainly wasn't around as much
as most parents I suppose. But if they wanted to, to go and
do something for their sport or with about their sport, then I
(01:00:19):
was always on hand to try and help them do that.
And have a, a bit more of a, of a chat about whether it was a
technical thing, whether it was a mental thing, whether it was a
physical thing. And try to get them to, to sort
of understand maybe why that wasthe case of whatever the, the
(01:00:42):
was on their mind. And then, and then try to get
them to, to sort of solve, come up with a solution that they
were happy with. And, and yeah, so in the end it
was always, yeah, it's definitely not pressurising them
to follow a particular sport or,or a particular role in a sport
(01:01:04):
or have a certain set of skills.Although, you know, knowing the
sport could always give them some advice, general advice
about, you know, if, if that's where you want to go, then you
should consider, you know, having maybe all these sorts of
skills. And then if you have, how do you
(01:01:25):
go about doing that? But but nonetheless, no, just
trying to be supportive, providehelp where I I could and and
then let them you know, trial and error work their way through
it. Yeah, it's interesting.
I had to chat to Scott Roth, thecoach of the Tasmanian Jack
jumpers in the NBL and he said at a youngish age the 1st 15
(01:01:47):
minutes after the game, IE the car ride is where the the kids
feel the win, loss or draw and it's not the parents business to
come and pick the negatives and just stay clear and stay back.
It was kind of an interesting, Ihadn't heard that one before
about the 1st 15 minutes. But as you said, let them work
it out and then that you know, guide when necessary.
(01:02:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, but everybody, you know,
in the sense everybody, everybody's a little bit
different. They, they have their own wives.
But yeah, I I just always felt certainly my place has to be
there supporting and then offer advice when, if and when
required. Yeah, John Buchanan, thank you
(01:02:29):
so much for being on school board the podcast today.
I really do appreciate you giving and sharing some
knowledge and and insights into your life as a coach and your
life as a business owner. Now in terms of what you're
doing around high performing teams and to your book and your
services, etcetera, will put thelinks up and whatnot.
I really do appreciate it. Looking forward to to catching
up again. Lovely Chris, and thanks for the
(01:02:51):
time really. Enjoyed it?
From the arena to the front office, this is Scoreboard.
I'm Chris Tipley, and each episode brings you stories from
the game of sport, where mindset, money and meaning shape
what comes next. Athletes, coaches, owners and
business leaders unpack the moments that matter, because the
Scoreboard isn't just about winning.
It's about life beyond the game.Now let's get to this week's
(00:23):
episode. Hi, it's Chris Tipley here.
And on today's episode of SchoolBoard, the podcast, I'm joined
by John Buchanan. John, thanks for coming in and
having a chat. Pleasure, Chris.
John, we're gonna start by oh, what are we on Thursday, the 5th
of June, 137 in the afternoon. How's your Thursday been, John?
Oh. Well, it's been all.
(00:43):
I've been doing a little bit of exercise this morning, which is
nice, climbing to Mayor Kuther and looking out over the Vista
and the sunrise, which is alwaysa nice thing to do over Thursday
morning. And then a couple of meetings,
couple of catch ups with people that hopefully can do some
(01:04):
business with. And, and the other was a bit of
a review on our business sport Connection Network, how the
event went last night, what we can improve, what the next
months look like. So that's been sort of the day
so far. Fantastic.
Now a couple of things, mountainclimbing and and business.
I've had the pleasure of being part of your courses about
(01:25):
talking about Everest and and what you do.
Can you talk about what you do now and aligning that business
and sport analogy? Yeah, sure.
Look, the, the businesses aroundcoaching and leadership, it's
about, I guess, the lessons thatI've learnt through my life,
both as a parent, as a, as a young person growing up trying
(01:47):
to forge their way in a whole range of different ways and then
being involved as a professionalsports coach.
And so trying to take those lessons and then bring them into
the corporate world and really exploring, I think the power of
quality coaching as it can help leaders trying to lead, as it
(02:08):
can help individuals wanting to improve their life or their work
life or a combination of all. And also around teams, how to,
how to get the best from teams, how to keep them on track, how
to again, you know, chase their,their Everest and work out where
they're going in the right direction.
(02:29):
So that's really what the business is about.
And it it crosses all different industries, different people
and, and different ways of delivering that.
I was chatting to a couple of athletes in sort of individual
sports, but then there may be part of a broader team, for
instance, like a swimmer, part of the Olympic squad, they're
part of the Dolphins. When it comes to cricket, which
(02:51):
you're very versed in, there's individual aspects and team
aspects. As a as a player yourself and as
a young kid, which of you morph towards the team sport or the
individual sport? Guess I was always a team sport
and that's possibly because I was an only child, so I had
enough of the individual stuff growing up.
So I was always then hankering towards being part of a group.
(03:13):
So certainly really always enjoyed being part of a team
and, and whether that was cricket or rugby, tennis,
whatever it might have been. Yeah, just enjoyed that, that
camaraderie and working togetheras a group to try to achieve
something. And in terms of your own
sporting prowess as you're growing up and playing cricket,
(03:34):
cricket was the the chosen one which took you a little bit
further than the others. Why Cricket?
Well, it probably goes back to my early school days where at
school I was at a boarding school, but I wasn't a border.
I was a day boy and my parents would bring out a couple of the
borders of a weekend so that they could get out of school and
(03:59):
school food and the school routines and get a bit of home
cooking and a bit of, you know, love and care from quasi
parents. And at the same stage were quasi
brothers for me. And so we'd spent a lot of time
in the backyard playing cricket.My father built a homemade
(04:20):
cricket pitch from ultrawling porno Nets and TV antenna tubes
and and that's how we sort of played our Test match cricket
and using an old ABC cricket book and drawing names out of a
a hat, we put together our sidesand then and then play that.
(04:43):
So cricket was probably the sport that I gravitated to
because of that, I guess. But also, yeah, it was, it was
part and parcel of of my dreams and my imagination because you
could listen to that on the radio and listen to, you know,
(05:04):
the broadcasters telling their stories and, and painting
pictures of what cricket might have been over in England when
all you had was a radio and precious little black and white
TV. So that created, I think in me,
(05:24):
the passions and the dreams about cricket.
It certainly had that in other sports.
But somehow cricket just seemed to ignite something in there
that said that that's what I wasgoing to do, I was going to play
cricket for Australia. And that that was, that was my
dream as a young boy. When you're drawing those names
out and and listening to the radio, what are the names that
come back? What are the names and the
memories that come back to? Who do you always love to to
(05:46):
play you know as and also idolise and also on the
commentary team? Oh look, obviously always a lot
of Australians in there. So everywhere from the the
Bradmans to the Richardsons to the Hassetts to the Millers, the
Linwalls and, and of course my age therefore dates me a little
bit. Therefore I go back a little bit
further maybe. But it was always those players
(06:09):
and, and, and then the, I guess in my time, the current players
centred around the, the Tom Beavers and the Ken Mackay's and
the Peter Burgess, which are allQueensland players, the Wally
Grouts and then, you know, Simpson, Laurie, etcetera.
So it was a mixture of all those.
But it wasn't just Australian, you know, We'd always throw in a
(06:32):
few Indian names and few Englishnames, a few South African names
and, and then, yes, draw them out of the hat and away we went.
And then your, your playing days, you want to talk about
that and, and, and the idea potentially of being a coach and
when that spark came. Yeah, look, the the spark didn't
(06:55):
really come for a long time. It was, yeah, a dream of playing
cricket, being that that professional cricketer and
aspiring to wear the bag of green cap.
And when that one disappeared and I followed a path of sports
administration and I had a humanmovement studies degree and I
(07:16):
really then thought, well, maybethis is the career path for me
and I could one day be a, you know, an outstanding sports
administrator. And again pursued that for a
while till the job I was occupying at the time was
national director of Australian volleyball.
And they moved the office to Canberra and at that time we had
(07:37):
two young children and so said no, just can't do it, not going
to Canberra and I'll look for something else.
So I then got a diploma of teaching and moved into teaching
and teaching in TAFE and well that was good.
It wasn't necessarily the right fit, I didn't think for me or I
wasn't the right fit for it. So explored in the path of
(07:59):
becoming a lecturer. So using education plus sport
and marrying the two together and we went overseas and I
embarked on a master's in sportsadministration and sports
coaching at the University of Alberta and came back and
started lecturing of all places at the University of Canberra.
(08:19):
So. Sorry, you don't want to go
there. But we always wanted to come
back to Brisbane, so I was always searching for jobs up
here and eventually came back and managed a a national
programme called Aussie Sports, which was a joint programme of
the Sports Commission, the Department of Education, the
(08:40):
Department of Tourism, Sport andRacing.
But it was a programme that I really believe wholeheartedly in
because it was about sport, but it was actually bringing sport
to the level of children. So you're actually trying to
ensure that children which are generally upper primary or early
secondary, that their first experiences in sport were really
(09:01):
enjoyable. So in other words, we modified
rules, we modified equipment andimportantly I guess we were
trying to modify some of the behaviours on the on the side of
sports fields so that the children were really just
enjoying the freedom to play this thing called sport.
(09:23):
And and you've seen some codes now obviously with things like
Oz kick that sort of adapt that and and make that a, a, a huge
thing. And you've seen some sports not
do it so well. So you must be kind of abreast
of that now a little bit and to see what sports have risen ahead
in terms of what you are almost establishing early on.
Well, it was that, I mean, this was the beginnings of Canyon
(09:44):
cricket. It was the beginnings of mini
rugby and, and, and all sports had the the various titles and
yeah, look, I think again, most sports, most sports have adapted
that pretty well. I understand that children these
days or any days for that matter, but they, they need
(10:06):
things at their level that they can experience at their level
and, and through modifications of rules and equipment and so
on. It really means, it means that
sports accessible to, to all children of all abilities.
And, and so, yeah, therefore that's why I think sport and I
(10:29):
always enjoy sport or physical activity.
It's so important to a child's development.
And I currently with a couple ofpartners, I have a business in
India which has taken an Australian business, which is
called Ready Steady Go Kids. Fantastic programme.
And I, I got to see this becausemy grandchildren started being
(10:53):
involved in the programme here in Brisbane and that's where I
got to see it. And I thought, wow, this is a
very, very good programme. It's scientifically based and it
it introduces children to 10 different sports over the course
of term where they just get the sample the sport, but again,
modified equipment, wonderful instructors on the floor and
(11:16):
again, they enjoy what they're doing.
And so with a couple of businesspartners, we've we've taken that
into India oh and and bought a franchise there or master
franchise there. Of course we bought that just
pre COVID. So that was really good timing
for. So for about 2 1/2 years nothing
happened while. COVID.
(11:37):
You know, did it's thing. So it it's going and and we have
our Indian business partners. So again, it, it's they're
designed to for 1 1/2 to 6 year old children to get them to
understand basic movement patterns and, and coordination,
balance, agility in a, in a very, very safe environment.
(12:01):
And we use in India, we use 13 sports rather than 10 here in
Australia. And we've added in three Indian
sports, which are Kabadi, Coco and, and yoga.
So yeah, it, it's, I think like everything, whether it be maths
(12:22):
or music or language, but in this case sport, the earlier
that young children can get exposed to it in a very safe,
encouraging and supportive way. It it's, it's lifelong learning.
It's something that will always,they will always have, whether
(12:44):
they continue to use it for competition or whether they just
continue to use it as as a meansin in this case of activity,
physical activity, there's everychance that they will because
they've enjoyed the experience and they've got the foundations.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I was just chatting to Tim
McKinnon recently who's the CEO of Play HQ and they do all the,
(13:06):
the infrastructure, the digital infrastructure behind grassroots
cricket and AFL, etcetera. And he was, you know, talking
about the, the, the challenges and distractions of kids these
days with social media and, and gaming and Roblox and and
Fortnite, etcetera. A lot of a different challenge
than when we were growing up. John is in more about where the
local club was and and and I suppose who were playing and
(13:28):
whether there was a competition from grassroots sport was you
were developing there to then getting into a high performing,
yeah, pre professional era, but certainly coaching high
performing teams. When did that come about in in
terms of cricket and and your early kind of views of becoming
a coach per SE as as a profession?
(13:49):
Yes, I I think, yeah, we were alluding to that, that I was
sort of working and coaching andinto that Aussie sport
programme. And it was about June 94 when
the Queensland Bulls job was advertised and Jeff Thompson had
been there for four years, I think, by that stage and been
doing a very good job. And so I was a bit sceptical
(14:10):
whether or not this was a real advertisement or whether it's
one of those ones that you, you know, you sort of have to do,
but you know, who's going to getthe job.
But I was assured by Ian Healy, who was captain at the time,
that no, it was for real. So that's when I kind of look
back on everything that I was doing and I realised that in a
sense when I theoretically had been learning more about
(14:33):
coaching and bit of psychology and you know, a bit of strategy
and, and organisational structures and so on.
I've been doing it by all my work because I've been working
with various teams within the businesses or the, the, the
roles that I had. I'd still kept an association
(14:54):
with the sport and, and having come back to Brisbane and, and
doing this Aussie sport job, would have gone back to
university and started coaching back there for a, for a couple
of seasons. So there seem to be a number of
things that suggested to me thatmaybe I can coach and maybe I
have been without actually realising that's what I've been
(15:15):
doing. And of course, by that stage,
when the job came around, we hadfive children.
So there's, there's nothing likeparenting to give you some
insight into coaching. So then, yeah, I, I took the
step to apply. I, I, I kind of spent time
trying to understand me as a coach because again, I was never
(15:39):
going to be able to compete against the likes of a Jeff
Thompson and, and all the, the, the kind of former players that
are applied because my cricket pedigree was nowhere near as as
deep and as extensive and as impressive as most of the other
applicants. So what was it that I was going
to bring that would be differentand would be seen to be by those
(16:01):
at Queensland Cricket to be the right person for the job?
So it, it just took me down thatpath of understanding me,
understanding the principles, myvalues, cornerstones and how I'd
go about doing the job. So that's where it started in,
in June 94. And we were, you know, fortunate
in that first year that we won the Sheffield Shield and, and I,
(16:23):
I guess that cemented my path asa professional coach, but it
probably more cemented my knowledge of myself as a coach
and, and the power of quality coaching.
So that's continued to be my life since then.
I spent 4, four years with Queensland and then another
(16:46):
nearly eight years with the Australian cricket team, a
couple of seasons over in India with IPL and in that last period
with the Australian team, I was setting up this business which
I'm currently doing, which has become a success.
Coaching, which where we startedwas it's all about coaching and
leadership and the power of coaching to deliver on, you
know, high performance, high performance teams, leaders being
(17:09):
able to create that and individuals that sit inside that
and understand how they can perform at their best.
Do you think when you, you, you took that job?
I think it was the 69th season that Queensland had been in and
and hadn't won the the SheffieldShield.
Did you think that, you know, asa challenge you thought, oh,
actually there's there's something here to break this
cycle? Or were you thinking, oh, well,
(17:30):
I'll give it a go. But you know, everyone's tried
in the past and well, if it if we don't win the next couple of
years, at least I've given it a good shot.
Well, I went into it on the basis that or wasn't there to
win the the Holy Grail, or at least that wasn't the the key
(17:52):
objective. The key objective for me was to
say, look, what we'll do here isthat we'll put Queensland in a
position where we can dominate the domestic competition for the
next 10 years. And we'll do that through
changing system and process. And somewhere in there though, I
(18:14):
believe we'll win the Sheffield Shield.
I wouldn't be able to say when, but the important thing is that
we'll actually understand a little bit more about how we did
that so that we will be in a farbetter position than to be able
to continue to do that, whether or not that means you win again.
But it means that we're going tochallenge and as I said, we're
(18:36):
going to dominate the competition for the next 10
years. So that's how I went into it on
on the basis that yes, I guess Idid believe that it would
happen, but it was more about actually setting up a high
performance system that would sustain itself and that could
then continue to sustain itself over a period of time.
(18:59):
I'm curious to know the 10 yearsthe the big hairy audacious goal
is that something which was has always been like a goal of yours
in terms of time. Some people might be 3510 like
it's 10 to something that kind of sits well with you.
Yeah, look, it's not necessarilya timeline that I had.
So when I went to the into the Australian team, it was about
(19:22):
telling them we're going on a journey to Everest together.
And that's where the Everest concept or my Everest concept
sort of started. And that journey, I said, I
didn't really know how long thatwould take, but the principle of
it was that we were going to change the way the game was, was
played and that we wanted everybody else to look at us.
And, and again, a sense of dominating your, your
(19:44):
marketplace. And then also, and, and, and
that was assisted because I had a, a very good relationship or,
you know, it developed over time, but with Stephen Wall,
because his mantra was around taking the road less travel.
So he wanted to do things differently to everybody else.
And, and so did I. And as I said, we will by the
(20:08):
time, as I said, that we finished our time as a group
together, that we would have changed the game and hopefully
we'd be given a, a really. Yeah, a good label if you like
about what we did a bit like. The Invincibles in Australian
cricket history, so that was kind of the starting point.
(20:28):
So it wasn't necessary timeline,but there was still always this
vision that whatever we're doing, we're going to do better
than anybody else. And the relationship between the
coach and a captain and having agood captain, can you talk about
that relationship with how closeit becomes?
You become mates, you might become godparents of each
other's children or something. Or is that a little bit coach,
(20:50):
captain? Look, I think in any business
and, and let's take it that Australian cricket team as a, as
a small wheel within the big business of Cricket Australia.
And, and their vision at the time was and, and maybe it still
is, I, I don't know these days, but it's vision at the time was
to make cricket Australia's favourite summer sport.
(21:11):
And, and so for me, that's that's an admirable vision, but
it didn't sit with the cricket team in my mind.
So that's why I went about trying to create this vision of
Everest and what it meant. Because if we could chase that
down and head in that direction and get our wheel working, well
then that would help Cricket Australia do what it needed to
(21:33):
do. And so a function of all that
is, is cohesion, harmony, relationships.
But one of the critical links and all that is the captain and
the coach or in a business sense, it might be the CEO and
the chairman of the board or it might be, you know, CEO and ACFO
(21:58):
or the senior leadership team. And if those link or that link
is tenuous, if it's disconnects at different stages, then a team
or a group might be successful for a short period of time, but
won't be successful over a longer period of time.
(22:18):
So that relationship between captain and coach, in this
particular case in the cricket team needed to be strong.
And, and it didn't mean that Steve and I agreed on everything
all the time. And, and, and indeed, we had
different ways of doing what we need to do, but our philosophy,
our principles, our values were,were well aligned.
And I think we were both of verygood support for each other in
(22:41):
terms of him being the captain and leading the team and, and on
field running the show. And then from my point of view,
maybe help accept longer term strategies and, and therefore or
longer term goals and then longer term strategies and then
bringing that down game by game.And and also delving into the
whole world of I guess analyticsand data and where all that
(23:06):
fitted into the overall mix about taking this team in the
direction that we thought it should be able to, to go and
achieve and achieve and. I was just thinking about the
the timing of all that. Google was probably starting to
happen around the early 2000s and people are starting to use
search engines and the Internet was coming around probably
(23:26):
around the early 2000s. But you mentioned there about
data and strategy. What was it about you thinking
that actually there is a lot of data in cricket?
How do we capture it all? Not only do we capture all, how
do we use it? Yeah, no, you're right.
I mean, I, I think I would find it hard, well, certainly harder
(23:47):
coaching now than by the time I finished.
So I finished it, as I said, 2007 with the Australian team,
2009 in India. But at that stage there wasn't
really. Yeah, the Internet was chugging
along a little bit maybe. I don't even know.
(24:09):
I don't even think Facebook or any of them.
No, I think it was 07 maybe. I think Facebook or a 607 came
about, yeah. Or whatever, whatever and
whatever it's Remember there wasanother.
Myspace. My yes, that's right.
Yep. So you know, to some degree
warning was our our our, our guide to, you know, how you use
(24:33):
your phones and how you text. But other than that, there,
there, there wasn't the same social media.
So I, I think that's an incredible complication to, to
coaching these days. But back in 94 when I took on
the role, that was one of the systems and process that we
really wanted to change. Because my view was that there's
(24:57):
lots of knowledge and expertise in the room, in the room, in
inverted commas that you know, whether you're in the dressing
room, whether you're on a training paddock or whether
you're on the field. All that knowledge and
experience that that is held within the players that are
there some being, you know, likea Healy or an Allen border and
come back or Carl Rackerman, youknow, lots of experience.
(25:19):
So we wanted that. But at the same stage that's
reliant on them, their memories and their views and their
thoughts, which is great. But there's a lot of gaps in
between. So how do I, how do I fill in
the gaps? And so that's where with one of
our assistant coaches, Jimmy Hunter, his brother was a
(25:41):
Microsoft programme at the time.We said, well, there's this
computer stuff happening. You know, what can that do for
us? How can that help us capture
information that would be relevant to the group?
And so that's where we explored that whole basis of, of data
capture and then aligning it to,to vision and then being able to
(26:03):
utilise that either in team meetings or individual feedback
and importantly, analysis beginning to stack up game after
game. So we could be in a better
position to analyse our, our opposition.
So that when you went into a team meeting or you wanted to
(26:23):
use the experience of everybody in the room, you had that, but
but now you could actually supplement that with a lot of
accurate data and information. There must have been so much
data to potentially choose from when it comes to cricket, Like
you could do every ball and where every ball lands,
etcetera. How did you kind of dumb it down
(26:44):
to a point of going this is useful, this is actually useful
data. Yes, look and I mentioned to me
how to before and we started back in the the VHS days.
That's, that's where it was. And, and, and so, you know, at
the end of a Shield game, we'd have 24 hours of, of vision.
So we'd actually record what, what happened straight down the
(27:05):
wicket and we'd have 24 hours ofvision.
Then I'd, I'd go back into the game.
And so Jim, listen, you know, I need this, this and this and
this and this. And so poor old Jim then had to
take the 24 hours of vision, sift through that and then
transfer it onto another VHS type so we could then actually
show that through the, through the course of the game.
So even then there was a, if youlike, a dumbing down trying to
(27:28):
pick out the highlights of the game that were important to us
because of what we did and maybesome other parts of the game
that we didn't do so well. And so therefore there these are
areas that we individually or collectively can improve upon.
And so that that's really where it grew from.
And I guess like all people these days, there is, as you
(27:53):
say, just an incredible wealth of data, Probably way too much,
just way too much. And, and that was feedback that
I would get from the players at different times when we'd run
our meetings or I'd provide themindividual feedback.
You know, most, most players just want to go and play.
(28:14):
Most staff members just want to turn up today and do their job
and get it done and do the best they possibly can and then and
then then leave it, you know, because business in competition
every day, whereas sport, you know, has a bit of a luxury.
There's a bit of downtime beforeyou move into your game, play
your game and then you review and then you go back into
preparing for the next. So a lot of times it's still
(28:38):
trial and error, you know, because some individuals or some
situations require less information or require more
information, or there are certain things that you want to
highlight that maybe because you're involved in it as a play,
you don't necessarily see you, you see your performance, you
see some result, but there are other things going on that might
(29:00):
be important not only to you as an individual, but as a group
over a period of time. And an example, an example of
that was towards the end of of my career, in fact, it was our
World Cup 2007 in the West Indies.
And I took the players on a, on a boot camp before that, which
(29:22):
to many that was, you know, something that they really
didn't look forward to. But by the end of it, I think it
worked out pretty well. But the reason for that was that
I guess I was reflecting even back to 2004 on, on, on a couple
of performances and then between2003 World Cup and therefore
(29:45):
this 2007 World Cup, I just believe there are certain things
that we really needed to change around.
We needed to at least be aware of.
And and so that was kind of the,the, the process about trying to
provide them the information andthe tools without overburning
(30:06):
them with, with, you know, too much information, but enough to
get them to understand that there are certain things that I
think we're missing or we're shortcoming that were making us
vulnerable at certain times, certainly in a one day game.
And so we, we basically grabbed that information.
We provided the players their own little Playstations, so one,
(30:30):
they could fiddle around and play games.
But we knew at the same stage wecould put information in there
that we needed for them to actually look at and analyse.
So that when we came to games orcame to meetings or whatever it
was, we were well prepared to dothat.
When it comes to high performance and the data, do you
how much time did you spend on your own, A individual data, B
(30:51):
team data versus looking at yourcompetition and looking across
in the line going what are they doing?
Yeah, as I said right at the outset, basically we were there
to change the game, so we wantedother people to be looking at
what we were doing. So there was always an idea of
(31:11):
what the opposition we're doing,trying to find, you know,
strengths, weaknesses, where we could utilise our skills to
exploit their weaknesses. But ultimately you'd always try
to bring it back to yourselves that you know, what it is that
you were doing well, what it is that individuals in the team are
doing well, how they could improve their game, how we could
(31:34):
improve our game. And that was really, I guess,
always the emphasis, you know. So when I coaching business
these days, I'll always try to take either the team or the
leader or the individuals back to their personal best.
Just like any athlete, you know,when they perform at their best,
(31:55):
what is it that that they're doing?
Because it just seems to me that's where you want to start
from that that should be your starting block.
If you understand that, if you know how you do that.
And then if you know in game or in competition how you adapt to
what the game throws at you. Because again, like any game
plan, it's terrific to have a game plan and, you know,
(32:18):
understand our opposition and under understand our skills
well, because we're dealing in, in human behaviour.
Very little of that follows the script.
So it's nice to have, but it's, it's about what you how you deal
with what's exactly in front of you.
And so that becomes part and parcel then of, you know, that
(32:42):
knowing when you're at your best, what do you do?
Because it's what's inside your control that matters because we
don't control how our oppositionare going to play.
How are wickets going to play? What are the conditions overhead
going to be like? What are the umpires going to
do? What's what's the crowd
involvement like? You know, what's the traffic
like getting to the, the ground,whatever it might be.
(33:04):
But what we do control is, is inourselves.
And and so if we understand thatand we're in a better position
to give ourselves best chance ofgetting near our PB or exceeding
our PB, no guarantees, but but at least if we understand that's
a good starting point. And you've got 11 players on the
ground at once, and A and A and a 12th man as well.
But getting each of those 11 players up to the level of their
(33:27):
personal best must have been a little tricky.
Maybe someone gets 100, but the team loses.
Maybe someone gets a 5 for the team loses.
How do you, how did you get thatEveryone elevated the processes
and I suppose sometimes some personalities will rise above to
the top a little bit. Yeah.
Look, there's always, always a fluctuation happening in it.
And, you know, I guess one of the measures of a very
(33:51):
successful team is that if I look back on, on say Game 1, you
know, you might have two or three players that if, if you
gave it a percentage ranking, they might be, you know, 100% or
at least 80% of, of what APB might be or what an expectation
of their performance should be. Then you might have another, you
(34:13):
know, 3 or 4 that are sitting around 50 to 70%.
And then you'll have another, the rest who are somewhere
between probably 0 and, and 30%.But the important thing about a
a very good team is it's not those people with those
percentages. They're not the same people
(34:33):
every, every game. So performance will fluctuate.
And so therefore, going back to what I was saying before, what
becomes important is that each player gives them, gives
themselves best chance to perform at their best.
So again, another saying for me is that I want them to be their
(34:56):
own best coach. You know, I want them to
completely understand how they go about playing at their best
because again, that gives them the best chance of doing that.
And so that's what we set out todo.
You know, if you've got 11 players on the field or you've
got a touring party of 15 or 17 or wherever it might be, you're,
you're constantly trying to ensure that each person knows
(35:19):
what they need, need to prepare and then knows what they need to
do in game. And so you're trying to make
sure that that that is occurringnow, of course, yeah, always got
limited time, limited resources to do that.
Therefore the players also need to understand their mates next
to them, what they are looking for at the same stage.
(35:39):
So how do we, how do we all makesure that in in some way, shape
and form, we may not necessarilyget everything we want when we
want it, but how do we all work together to try to make sure
that the collective is pretty close to what it is that they
need prior going into a, into a,into a guy?
And John with a, you mentioned One day Internationals and the
(36:01):
game is changing a little bit interms of high scores and and
different ways of thinking. How much sort of did you go
about testing ways of thinking and looking at now the modern
day with with different ways of thinking?
How did you go about that? I suppose in trialling and
error? Yeah, a few different things.
Yeah, look, again, bit like social media, it was a slightly
(36:22):
simpler arrangement back in our day so that there was only test
matches in one day and T20 had just really started to come in.
And and that's why I say I was involved in the first couple of
IP LS in 2000 and eight 2009. So yeah, look, in essence, I
think all games, no matter what the sport are the same, doesn't
(36:45):
matter how long they take. Because really to perform, you
need to perform in terms of whatis in front of you.
And that means you can have yourplan whether you're playing in
in cricket since a short format game AT20 game or a one day game
to a longer game, you know, a four day game or a five day
(37:06):
game. It still comes down to the fact
that it's it's still a one ball game.
It's just one ball. I mean, you can only bowl 1
ball, you can only face one ball, you can only feel one
ball. So the one ball then is, is
obviously placed in the context of the format.
So one ball in 120 balls of AT20innings is, you know, just under
(37:30):
1%. You take one ball in a 300 ball
game, which is 50 / / a game. So now we're down to point O 3%
of of its impact, if you like, or of its contribution to the
outcome of a game. And then if you place that one
ball in a, you know, 90 over game or 90 over day against, we
(37:50):
get you get the difference. But the principle is still the
same that you can only deal withthat one ball.
Now. Therefore, as a bowler, bat,
fieldsman, we're keeper, how do I adapt my skills to what the
game requires at this moment in time against that one ball?
(38:14):
So therefore, as a player, have I now a menu that I can choose
from that enables me to best compete to win that moment?
And therefore, if it's a longer game, maybe I have a more
(38:40):
conservative set of or a mindset.
And therefore when I dive into my menu, I only look for more
conservative options that will win me the moment as I shorten
that right down to T20. Then at in that moment, to win
(39:01):
that moment, maybe I now need tomake sure that I've got a
broader menu so that I now can choose something that will be
less conservative, possibly morerelevant to the format of the
game, and therefore be able to employ that skill.
(39:24):
But it's still about adaptation.It's still about the decision
making process. It's still about actually having
a, a clear mind at that moment so that you are able then to,
you know, it sounds like a long process and this is all
happening in a split second, of course.
(39:44):
But you are able with a, with a clear mind and to, to jump into
all your experiences. And out of that, out of that
experience experiential databasethat you hold in your, your mind
because you've trained so much and it's, you know, a bit of
muscle memory, then you go in and you make the right choice of
(40:05):
action. Behaviour that you need to take
right at that moment. Then of course it goes back to
then your ability to execute, which is really a technical and
your physical skills that you'vetried to as well.
And hopefully those two coalesceto give you an opportunity to
win that moment. And then if you get through that
moment, you get to face the nextmoment or you get to deliver the
next moment. But it's it, the principles are
(40:28):
still the same. It's just, yeah, it is a bit
contextual and it's about understanding how I therefore
adapt my skills to what the gamerequires me to do right at this
moment. And through all those moments,
you get to a maybe a pivotal moment like a last ball of the
day or there's a one run to win off the last ball, etcetera.
(40:50):
As a, as a coach, did you see some of these moments and, and
you're like, OK, anything could happen here.
I'm not on the field. And how did that make you feel?
Well, that's, that's, that's coaching, that's leadership.
That's, you know, your, your role is well long gone by that
stage, meaning that hopefully the sort of environments that
(41:12):
you set up as a leader and a coach, a wonderful learning
environment so that individual players or groups at certain
times feel comfortable at that time.
They want to be there at those times so that therefore they can
demonstrate through their skillsthat they're capable of winning
(41:33):
those those pivotal moments. As you might say, those pivotal
moments have become pivotal simply because of the outcomes
of all the other moments that have led up to that.
But nonetheless, they, they, they are pivotal moments.
And so hopefully as a coach, youdon't have any direct control
over that. You're indirect control has been
what you've actually created in the first place to, you know,
(41:56):
challenge individuals always by ways of scenarios and, and, and
just the the pressures that theymay face at any moment through
any game, but are ready to deal with that because, yeah, that's
just something that now becomes really one something that they
(42:18):
want to do where they want to beand to of of feel like it's just
a natural thing and and their their skills are there to
support them to do it. Did you ever have a scenario
where you thought the team pretty much just gave everything
that they possibly gave and could give in those moments and,
and, and thinking about scenarioand then you've you've come up
(42:39):
short and as a coach, how do youkind of keep that as progress
forward as opposed to a loss? Yeah, look, there are and you
know, and, and, and, and a lot of times some of those results
are the ones that are very close, that you, you just got so
close and then just missed out at the end.
(43:00):
But again, I think for me, it was always and, and certainly
when I started with the the Queensland team, because as you
said it earlier in the interviewthat they hadn't won for 69
years. So there are a lot of ghosts of
the past that would would horn our dressing rooms at different
times because it was always about this Holy Grail.
(43:21):
It was always about winning the Sheffield Shield.
And of course that's the result that you would like.
But for me, the more that we focus on the result, the further
it got away from us. And, and so in your question, my
job was always to try to bring it back to a process, try to
understand, you know, when we play well, what is it that we're
(43:42):
doing? If we're not playing well, what
is it that we're overlooking? But it's always about what's in
our control. So if we, you know, played well
and missed out, well, let's go back in and look at what we've
done, what we've done, you know,take the result away.
What have we done? Is there something in there that
we could improve upon? Is there something there that we
(44:03):
can learn from for the next timethat we face a similar
situation? So maybe that the result is
reversed. So it's always trying to, yes,
understand result because again,sports build on winning and
losing. There's, there's nothing, I
mean, you can get draws, but nonetheless, the, the, the rules
and, and, and everything else isset up to win or lose.
(44:24):
So it was always then about understanding, yes, we've got to
get results, but how do we do that?
How do we do that? And if we can understand that,
we're in a better position to get those results.
And then every day is different for every human being and some
days we wake up a little tired and some days we wake up a
little grumpy and some days we wake up really happy.
With the the energy flowing through the the squad that you
(44:47):
had, you would have had people where confidence was low and you
had to be empathetic to others. The how did you manage the
feelings with the players sometimes?
Well, I mean, yes, that's so true.
And as we said before, we're allhuman beings and it's human
behaviour. And so that that's always going
to be the case. So yeah, as a coach, you, you're
(45:09):
always there for all your players, always there for all
your players. And, and whether that's support,
whether that's guidance, whetherthat's reprimand, you know,
whatever it might be, you're there to try to help your
player. That's what you're trying to do
all the time. Or in business, you're staff
(45:29):
member. They, they need to know that you
care about them. They need to know that
irrespective of whether they're getting a, a bit of a reprimand
or it's, it's designed for a purpose to help them to be
better at what they're doing and, and hopefully perform
better in their role or their position.
(45:51):
But it shouldn't always come down to the couch.
So it, it should be in a, in a high performance team that if a
player is down, then other players are aware of that, that
I mean, some, some signs are quite visible, obviously, but
others aren't. And, and therefore, when I talk
about, you know, understanding your own game, being your own
(46:15):
best coach, then it's important that that's shared with others,
not just kept to yourself. So that if that is the case, if
somebody's down on confidence, if somebody's not well, or if
there's something happened outside of the dressing room
for, for external reasons or external happenings, then
(46:37):
hopefully there are lots of other people around them that
can help them through that. And sometimes, you know, the
coach is exactly not the right person.
I found that a number of times that, you know, if I wanted to,
you know, have or make a change or have have, you know, a
(46:58):
different outcome or needed somesomething to be precisely said
to individuals. If, if I was the one to do that,
then it was never going to be heard, you know, either due to
the, our relationship or due to a set of circumstances.
(47:20):
And, and So what I need to always find was, well, who's the
right person at this point in time to do that?
How do we actually deal with that person at the moment?
And as I say, who, who could be the right people?
So you'll hear a lot of people talk about fit in in a team or
(47:41):
an organisation. You'll hear them talk about
culture, you'll hear them talk about cohesion.
Well, that's kind of what I'm saying here, that that for me,
when you put together a team that there are assistant
coaches, you know, there's a whole range of players and there
are other people that you'll bring in at different times.
And so it, it is always important that whoever comes
(48:05):
into that mix is always going tochange the dynamics because of
who they are and, and their own personalities and their own
biases. But importantly, that change of
dynamics is something that's notgoing to be retrograde to the
group, but it's only going to add value to the group.
So in the end, yeah, coach definitely is there to help
(48:27):
everybody and try to care for everybody.
But in the end, there are so many things going on in in a
group of people that if everybody takes that
responsibility, then it's a it'sa much easier job to keep that
place as harmonious as possible.Did you get a bit of bit of
(48:47):
stick, I suppose, from trying tochange the dynamic from a
broader group, I suppose, or saywe don't want to do the boot
camp as an example, Like this isridiculous as a joke and you're
like, well, this is the way I want to do it.
This is the buy in, you know, I need.
And then obviously, you know, ultimately you won that World
Cup, for instance, as an example, but did you get that
(49:08):
quite a bit? Oh, look, there's always
resistance, you know, And I, andI think and, and not necessarily
always from the same people or, or to the same degree, you know,
but, but that's only human nature.
Because again, what we're sayinghere is that if we're going to
be a high performance team and for me, high performance means
(49:30):
that you're, you're dominating as I say, your marketplace, but
you're doing it over a long period of time under all sets of
conditions. Not just once.
Not winning one premiership, you're winning multiple
premierships, right? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. If that's where you want to be,
then individuals, coaches included, cannot remain in their
comfort zone. They cannot remain as they were
(49:50):
or as they are if if they want to step into the future and be
something different. So therefore that means change.
Therefore that means challenge. Therefore that means doing
things differently. And of course, we all don't
necessarily enjoy that. You know, there are things that
we don't understand why they're happening, no matter how well
(50:12):
they're explained, because, you know, things are working well
now. So why change?
Why change? And, and so again, I guess part
of my saying was, you know, likeone of those cliches, if it
ain't broke, break it. Because to me, we're, we're
always seeking what's better. You know, I wrote wrote the book
(50:33):
if better is possible. And I always believe that
everything can be improved. And if something can't be
improved, no matter what you howyou disassemble it and then
reassemble it, then then you've got something that's really
special and you need to hang on to that in some way, shape or
form. But generally in the mind, most
things can be improved if you keep seeking that, you know, And
(50:56):
I guess I've just been going back over David Brailsford and
what do you do with British Cycling?
And that was just, you know, sort of marginal game theory.
So, you know, he'd break everything down and, and then
try to improve everything just that 1%.
(51:16):
And if you could do that across the whole system and a whole set
of processes, boy, what a difference that makes to an
individual, to a group of people, to an organisation.
And looking back at what you didas a coach for Queensland and as
a coach for Australia, you set out to achieve X and you know
from my point of view you achieved X.
(51:36):
Did you achieve what you wanted to achieve?
Being the the coach there and and looking back, how does it
make you feel? Yeah, look, in fact, I was
having this conversation last night because I always believe
there's a shelf life in, in coaching or I did then and I
still do now. And you know, with Queensland,
(51:57):
I, I was there four years and, and I was having, we, we used to
have a pretty informal coaching group, you know, from Aussie
rules to rugby league, rugby union, basketball, swimming, you
know, a group was just get together and toss a few things
around. And I remember talking to Wayne
Bennett about this at the time and I said, I just believe
(52:20):
there's a shelf life of coaching.
I, I think I might have, you know, one more year and then
it's, it's time to move on. Because in my mind, the players
needed change. They needed new eyes, new
perspectives, new ways of doing things and, and hopefully build
on what I'd put in place. And he, he, he looked at me and
he said, mate, you're, you're kidding, aren't you?
(52:42):
You're the best coach going around.
So why, why would you want to move on?
And as I said, for those very reasons, I just believe it's
telling me, he said, look, I'll tell you what happened at the
Broncos, either I go or the players go.
And he said I'm not going. So he had he had a way of, of
him reinventing himself, which was in a sense not reinventing
(53:04):
himself, but changing over the dynamics of his group, keeping
some core people in his group and then making sure that those
who came in really fitted into the environment that that he had
in the way that he went about coaching and those that he
didn't think could, they were moved on.
So yeah, for me it was, there's a certain length of time.
(53:30):
And after that time it, it, it is the time to to look
elsewhere. And I was fortunate in a
coaching sense that that the Australian job came up and I was
able to jump into that. But again, same thing, you know,
by the time 2007 came around, I'd already given crude
Australia sort of a 20 month plan after we'd lost the Ashes
(53:51):
in 2005, a 20 month plan about how this would occur.
And I was exiting at that time if given the opportunity.
And so, you know, fortunately everything rolled out well, but
nonetheless, they then had a, a,a good opportunity to work out
the whole succession planning process for them.
(54:12):
So that hopefully change was wasrelatively seamless.
And looking back at the the record that everyone talked
about, the 16 consecutive wins, when it comes to Everest, where
where was Everest? Along there was it 1213141516.
How do you work out every? Yeah, No, it wasn't really again
(54:34):
based on result you know, or albeit that that was a record
and I think it's still it still stands.
And so so to do a number of other one day records that we
have. So the results were good,
there's no doubt about that. And, and well, not only good,
outstanding, they, they can still stand.
But really it was about the the way that we went about our
(54:55):
cricket that that was the Everest, you know, that was the
Everest that was about yeah, howwe how we batted, how we
fielded, how we bowled, how we planned, how we conducted
ourselves. Were we were we not only models
(55:15):
on field, but were we models offfield?
You know, So it was, it was really that was all
encompassing. And, and, and I remember going
back to results at the last interview when we won the 2007
World Cup in in Barbados. And, and I was asked by a
(55:37):
journey there, you know, becauseagain, I think all coaches would
like to coach the perfect game when the perfect game is to me,
we have a game plan and you justenact that perfectly and you
therefore you get the result that you're looking for.
And so I said, look, I don't think we got close a few times.
(56:00):
I don't think I ever coached theperfect game, but we got close.
But I said we had the perfect team.
And, and what I meant by that was that I believed all players
in McGrath at that stage, that was his last, last game for
Australia as well. We're always looking to improve
themselves. They, they were always looking
(56:21):
to try to find Ways and Means that they could be better.
And, and so to me, that was the perfect team.
They've challenged themselves and they challenged other people
in the group. And, and that's why it was such
a, you know, an outstanding group over that period of time.
And John, we talked about moments.
The question I asked my guest istheir all time favourite
sporting moment. It can involve yourself and
(56:44):
your, your group, etcetera. But it also can not be that as
well and and for someone like myself, there's lots of moments
and Steve Walls hitting the century off the last ball in O3
and you've got Kathy Freeman. There's so many highlighted
Australia, not just Australia but global sporting moments.
What's your all time favourite sporting moment?
Yeah, do go on, because a littlebit older than you, there's a
(57:05):
heck of a lot of sporting moments that are in there.
Mind you, being a bit older, I've forgotten a lot too.
But yeah, there's so many thingsthat flashed by very, very
quickly. You know, 1 is at school winning
a a premiership. You know, that was incredible.
One of my sons winning a premiership when he was a
(57:26):
Gregory terrorist team, You know, so and you mentioned
Catherine Freeman, what happenedto be just by chance happened to
be there that night to see that that was amazing and and, and so
many other things. But I suppose the one that that
probably jumps out is again, when you can achieve at first,
you know, when you when you're the first to do something,
(57:48):
that's always pretty special. So I guess I'm drawn to the
first Sheffield Shield win for Queensland in in 95 where, yeah,
we went through that season and had our ups and downs and almost
didn't make the final, but finally had it at home and then
and then just played an outstanding game of cricket to
to win that Sheffield Shield andthe result was amazing.
(58:10):
But it was the scenes after that, both at the ground and
then probably over the next few weeks as we took the Sheffield
Shield around the state. That one probably at the moment
in in in this brief interview, probably ranks near the top.
It was also Rupert Mccall's favourite moment too.
(58:32):
From from the Hill, yes, yes. So he talked about that in his
interview recently that it was his, his favourite moment.
I've got. I've got one final question,
John, you, you, you mentioned about your son and your son is
your sons have played high performing sports.
As a parent, how did you go about seeing all these high
performers, I think at the at the highest level in the world
(58:53):
in in your area with cricket, etcetera, and also other sports
and seeing the attitudes. How did you go as a parent?
And what's some suggestions to parents out there that have got
kids that are loving their sportand and may end up becoming high
performing athletes? Yeah, look, it's, it's a bit of
a cliche, but from, from my point of view, I'd always just
(59:13):
try to stand on the sidelines and and watch what was going on,
observe how they were going, butleave it to the the coach of the
time. Now, I might have agreed with
the coach of the time what they were doing, but it wasn't my
place. My place was just there to be
supportive of my son and my daughters, whatever they were
doing. And then, you know, at the end
(59:35):
of the game, wander over, congratulate coach, congratulate
the team. And then, you know, on on the
way home or wherever it's appropriate, just have a bit of
a chat with with my daughter or my son and see what they were
thinking, what they were feelingand how they responded and what
was good and what wasn't good. And, and then just try to listen
(59:58):
and maybe provide some advice here and there.
And then of course if. Whatever it was, if they wanted
to go and do something, then I'dalways be if I was around
because in those days I, I certainly wasn't around as much
as most parents I suppose. But if they wanted to, to go and
do something for their sport or with about their sport, then I
(01:00:19):
was always on hand to try and help them do that.
And have a, a bit more of a, of a chat about whether it was a
technical thing, whether it was a mental thing, whether it was a
physical thing. And try to get them to, to sort
of understand maybe why that wasthe case of whatever the, the
(01:00:42):
was on their mind. And then, and then try to get
them to, to sort of solve, come up with a solution that they
were happy with. And, and yeah, so in the end it
was always, yeah, it's definitely not pressurising them
to follow a particular sport or,or a particular role in a sport
(01:01:04):
or have a certain set of skills.Although, you know, knowing the
sport could always give them some advice, general advice
about, you know, if, if that's where you want to go, then you
should consider, you know, having maybe all these sorts of
skills. And then if you have, how do you
(01:01:25):
go about doing that? But but nonetheless, no, just
trying to be supportive, providehelp where I I could and and
then let them you know, trial and error work their way through
it. Yeah, it's interesting.
I had to chat to Scott Roth, thecoach of the Tasmanian Jack
jumpers in the NBL and he said at a youngish age the 1st 15
(01:01:47):
minutes after the game, IE the car ride is where the the kids
feel the win, loss or draw and it's not the parents business to
come and pick the negatives and just stay clear and stay back.
It was kind of an interesting, Ihadn't heard that one before
about the 1st 15 minutes. But as you said, let them work
it out and then that you know, guide when necessary.
(01:02:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, but everybody, you know,
in the sense everybody, everybody's a little bit
different. They, they have their own wives.
But yeah, I I just always felt certainly my place has to be
there supporting and then offer advice when, if and when
required. Yeah, John Buchanan, thank you
(01:02:29):
so much for being on school board the podcast today.
I really do appreciate you giving and sharing some
knowledge and and insights into your life as a coach and your
life as a business owner. Now in terms of what you're
doing around high performing teams and to your book and your
services, etcetera, will put thelinks up and whatnot.
I really do appreciate it. Looking forward to to catching
up again. Lovely Chris, and thanks for the
(01:02:51):
time really. Enjoyed it?
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.