Episode 87: Matt Cockbain on Test Debuts, Selection Pressure & Coaching the Head

In Episode 87 of Scoreboard, Chris Titley chats with former Wallaby Matt Cockbain about the lessons from his playing days—and how they inform his coaching today.

Matt talks about earning his first Queensland and Wallabies caps, the challenges of wet-weather European tours, and why team fit matters just as much as talent. He reflects on his time under coaches like Rod Macqueen and Eddie Jones, and how those environments shaped his understanding of leadership.

Now a coach himself, Matt unpacks what it means to “coach the head”—teaching players how to think, respond, and contribute beyond just skill execution.

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hi, it's Chris Titley here on today's episode of School Board.
I'm joined by Matt Cobain in person.
Matt, welcome to the little impromptu studio we have here.
Yeah. Thanks, Chris.
It's a good setup you've got. Thanks, mate.
Yes, mate. So we sit here on the 24th of
June in the afternoon. What's Matt Cobain doing on the
24th of June? Well after talking to you and be

(00:21):
up to club training up with GPS,the old club we used to play for
and doing the coaching up there at the moment.
Yep. And yeah, so that's that's my
the major thing on today's agenda, obviously after speaking
to you. But yeah, made a decision
earlier this year to to drive upfrom Melbourne, where I've been
based for a long time to be on the ground in a in a rugby

(00:43):
state. Obviously with the Melbourne
Rebels falling over in Melbourne, you know, rugby's,
you know, not so prevalent down there and coming back up here
and being involved in in some school coaching as well.
So back with the old club's beenbeen good to keep the tool sharp
I guess. Yeah.
And so rugby, you're still involved in rugby.

(01:04):
You played rugby as a junior, you played professionally as
rugby. You're coaching rugby.
Your your relationship with rugby, how that's changed over
time. I mean, I love the game, right?
Like I think anyone who's involved in it as a player and a
coach obviously loves the game. And I'd never thought I'd be a
coach while I was playing and I played probably 10 years

(01:26):
professionally, but was in a time where it was still amateur.
But we were probably. Training 95 was it?
90 yeah 90. 6 I know 6 changed over I think it.
Changed over 95 was the last amateur world.
Cup. So you never grew up going I'll
make you keep some money from it.
But then during your career, that changed.
And then when here's some money,you're like, oh, OK, yeah.
Yeah, I guess the timing was right, although, I mean, I was

(01:47):
in that was mid 20s, like I was 24 and 96 when when it changed
over. And yeah, again, money, money
was never a real motivation with, with with playing.
And it was almost the benefit of, of being good at what you
did. I guess.
You know, I I took up the game in late high school in a place.

(02:12):
That's very like late compared to the some of the other guests
that I've had where they picked up a ball at 8 and went, oh,
this is really good, Yeah. You're 16 years old.
That's great. You're 6 foot 6.
Do you play basketball? I've.
Never played basketball? Everyone asked me that.
Well, I'm not going to ask you that do.
You play basketball? No, no rugby.
OK. But yeah, so I, I grew up, I was

(02:34):
born in Coffs Harbour, but then when I was about 11 or 12, the
family moved to North Queenslandand we were based in Innisfail
and I did all my high schooling up there.
So I, I say, well, when I say where I'm from, I say I'm from
Innisfail originally. So that's where I think in your
teens you grow up and then you form all your opinions and, and

(02:55):
you know, that's where you do your bulk of your growing
through those teen years. And attending Innisfail State
High School first sport was always well.
I played soccer for for about four years and enjoyed that and
was probably quite rough as a soccer player.
Being so tall. Well, just just like to go in

(03:17):
hard and to contest. So there's a few incidents of
broken legs and so forth. But we, we won't go in there.
They were all accidents, of course.
And then cricket. So dad was a pretty good
cricketer and he taught me how to, how to bat, you know, as I
was growing up. And so I really enjoyed cricket,
but probably grew into a more ofa bowler's body, obviously

(03:39):
height and. Not a left armour are you?
No, not a left. Armour is the left arm 6 foot 6
coming down. Yeah, a little bit probably.
Well, you're talking about making money.
That's probably where the money was, considering what they get
paid in the IPL. Oh, the the the T20, the
evolution of the game, Yeah. So yeah, took out, we had an

(03:59):
Irish, English, Irish English teacher, there you go.
And but he was a mad rugby guy, was involved in the local club
up there and he decided that it'd be great to sort of have a
school team. And so he put a a a notice out
one morning and said, if you guys want to play rugby, then
turn up and we'll we'll train you right.

(04:22):
And we'll, we've got a tournament in Townsville in two
weeks time. So we did that, went to the
tournament. Long story short, got picked in
the Rep team out of that. So I thought, well, this is all
right, It's pretty good from thestart.
I think my first game I played at centre and the centre.
Inside or outside? Oh.
Jeez, I can't remember. And just this like, I'll just
take the ball and see what happens.

(04:42):
Right, See, we didn't know much,right.
But we always kind of played backyard league.
I never played league officially.
So I think I played two officialgames of league for the school
and that's that's my rugby league career.
But I've always watched it and enjoyed it a lot.
And yeah, so off the back of that, the school then had

(05:05):
entered the competition in the Kansan District Schools
competition. And so we had a team in there
for a couple of years. And so that's I guess where I
developed my love rugby. And then from there it sort of
grew into, you know, playing forin teams like Queensland
country, Queensland under 20 ones and then eventually made
the move down here to Brisbane and, and, and played for GPS.

(05:26):
Got a burning question on the back of that.
Yeah. What's the state of origin?
What do you go for? QLD.
Morning coughs. Yeah, well, see, this is the
issue, right? So I've coached the Waratahs as
well. Like during COVID, I was there
for a couple of years when Rob Penny was coaching, I was with
my my ex lobby teammate Chris Whitaker.

(05:48):
So with with. Staunch NSW.
I didn't like him. Yeah, he was.
He is a bit like Benny Elias, yeah.
And so, you know, great, great. Footballer, by the way, not not
as a Queens owner. Didn't like.
That yeah, obviously he's and he's a great guy, Chris, like
he's really, really down to earth and and he's got your back
and and everything you do, but except the origins thing, you

(06:11):
guys. Oh, you're just a turncoat.
He's he's into me. So I said well, yeah, it is what
it is. I grew.
I played all all my. Oh, we claimed a lot of people,
Alan Borders and yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm pretty Chris.
Latham, I think, yeah, yeah. Lathe's a Lathe's a great
Queenslander. Isn't he?
Yeah, yeah. That's.
It and he's from Narrabri so andand been down well, he actually

(06:33):
played for the Waratahs so. Chris Latham played for the
Waratahs, yeah. Early in his career I think he
played a few games for the Tars before he then came up to
Queensland in. That's the trivia question. 98,
I think he came up, yeah. Yeah, right.
So in in his fail, though, wouldhave been league 100%, you know,
and then Union was a handful of people playing and then you,

(06:53):
Yep, you picked up the ball and you're like, this is a little
bit better than league. Why do you reckon League, you
know your union experience was alittle bit better than League?
I don't know, I think it was just luck, you know, I, I think
if it was league, because that same year I did try league, but
I had an injury and I, and I couldn't, I couldn't attend the,
the district trials. So I had to miss that.

(07:16):
And then rugby just filled the void I guess from there.
So yeah, it's, I think it's justpure luck and a bit of timing
that I, I, I think in the end, obviously the way my body is,
it's more suited to union, you know, with, with hype.
You don't get that many guys that are 66 playing rugby
league, but there are a few. But yeah, I think it's it just,

(07:39):
it just suited, it suited me in the in the timing was right.
And when did you morph from being a centre into the front
row? Front row second.
Row second row as in front, so forwards I mean, yeah. 2nd row
#8 and blind side was probably my number one position in terms
of where I ended up. Well, I was.
Thinking about front row becauseof Fletcher Dyson, you know, is
on the mind. We're trying to.

(08:00):
Even that bracket mate Fletcher's looking pretty fit
these. Days.
Yeah, I did. I had to adjust the mic for you.
It was the 1st 6 foot six guess I mean.
Yeah. So, yeah, I, yeah, just, I I
guess just had a, a natural, youknow, enjoyment of the game.
Like athletically it suited me as well.

(08:21):
Like, you know, being able to jump in a line out, I could jump
well. And that was in the days where
it was unassisted. So you know, lifting came in
later. Wow, there you go.
In my career. What about the four point versus
5 point? Was were you always 5?
Yeah, I think that happened early on.
I think that probably happened. Maybe where was that that might.
Be 90. Well 91.

(08:43):
World Cup was 4. Yeah, I think early 90s, Yeah,
Yeah, OK, yeah. So you played the bit of rugby
in Four point rugby. You bit of four point rugby,
yeah, wouldn't. You have all.
At school and probably. Those and the and the spiking
stuff, the, you know, the rucking.
Oh yeah, the rucky yeah, yeah, so my brother was a was a good
Rucker. He, he, well, he's the, he's the

(09:05):
larger of the two, right? He's, he's 6 foot 8, you know,
about 100 and 2025 kilos. And, and we came to Brisbane
together and we both obviously played for jeeps together.
And Brent's, Brent's got an interesting career and story
like he, he was involved in the Queensland rugby.
I think it would, played a couple of games.
He'd come off the bench and we played a couple of games for

(09:25):
the, for the Queensland team then and Reds as it is known
now. And, but then he, he was sort,
sort of pushed out. We had a lot of locks there,
good locks there and, and he decided to, to take off and have
a new experience. So he ended up in Wales.
He well he was London Irish at 1st and then he ended up in
Wales playing for a club called Pontypridd up there and then for

(09:48):
the Celtic Dragons I think lateron.
So he then got a call eventuallyfrom, from the Welsh coach and
said do you want to play for Wales because he qualifies for
residency. Residency in those days, it was
three years, not five years, what it is today.
And so he said, all right, well,yeah, yeah, I'll have a go.
So he ended up playing I think 2527 Tests, maybe for Wales, won

(10:12):
Five Nations. Wow, in back in 2005.
I do. Remember Brent Cobain but
wouldn't have thought that he'd went over and played
international rugby for 27 games.
Right. Yeah, yeah.
And sorry, it's Cobain, isn't it?
It's pronounced. Or Cobain.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spelled COC KB.
Yeah, man, but yeah. That's right.
My last name's Tipley. It says Wiggles.
That's not that's right. Yeah, so, yeah, and, and, and in

(10:36):
that 2005 season, he got a call up to play for the Lions,
obviously, which is sort of on the radar at the moment, right.
The Lions are here. So yeah, he he he ended up
playing two games for them. I think he got flown in as
injury cover into Auckland Airport late the game was that
day up in from the race. So they had the helicopter in up

(10:59):
from the airport, Auckland Airport, up to on the Ray and he
sat on the bench for that game. And we got the Lions in town
now. What are you, what are you
thinking? What are you feeling about
rugby, where it's at right now with the the best of the best
coming over every? Was it 12 years, isn't it?
Yeah, 12 years. Every 12 years, so.
That's right. So you played in 21?

(11:21):
Oh. Yeah, 24 years ago, that's.
A lot, yeah. 01 and then 13 and then.
So the O1 series started at the Gabba, soon recall.
That's right. Yeah, 13, 2013 I coached against
him. I was coaching at the Rebels at
that time and we had a tour Max.I'm going to hone in a little
bit on this series because we'reright in this thick of this and
it's a very important moment forrugby.
Couple of things, one, your feeling about playing them and

(11:45):
the series and what it meant to you versus the All Blacks and
the World Cup, etcetera. And then also now we're in a
state of where, yeah, rugby's have hasn't had the best run in
the last so you know, a few years etcetera compared to other
codes and and whatnot and there's A and the Bledisloe Cup,
etcetera. What are you thinking?

(12:06):
We'll go on to the lines. First your feeling, but then,
then how important this. Is, oh look, the lines are
always a strong team, right whenyou bring the the strength of
the Four Nations together and Ireland's been sitting in that
sort of one to three position and ranking wise in the world.
At the other end of the spectrum, you've got Wales who
have won a game 17 games or something like that.

(12:29):
England have always got some good players and, and Scotland
are actually a really good team.I think an improving team and,
and, and have got some really good cohesion with their
players. So the challenge I think for the
Lions will be around getting cohesion with the groups that
they've got. So they've got, you know, Andy
Farrell's the Irish head coach, they've got a couple of other

(12:50):
coaches in there that know the Irish system.
So expect them to be a little bit Irish in nature and.
Just describe that a little bit in terms of, you know, England
may be defensive, kind of forward, get some penalties.
You got the French a little bit more flamboyant.
What about the what you describethe Irish?
Irish in their attack, they tendto, you know, swing a lot from

(13:15):
from side to side, but they theythey still have the ability to
go quite direct. So they're a good mix, I think
of of teams. So they tend to play in lines of
attack. So you know, you've probably
heard of a block of play before where you've got players in
front of the ball there an option and then someone's out
the back as well. But sometimes they use three
lines of attack. So you know, they've got the the

(13:35):
the front line, the middle line,which is usually the playmaker.
And then you've got a runner outthe at the back there.
And they do that a lot and they play play it quite tight.
So the defenders asked to make alot of decisions quickly.
So it does put a lot of pressureon your, your, your defence.
But as I said, they've got that ability to go to set piece as

(13:56):
well, you know, strong, strong mauling team, strong scrummaging
team. So they can generate penalties,
etcetera. So they've got a good variety in
in in their attack and in the way that they can generate
points. But then it's it's let's get
together. We're enemies, but now we're
friends on a tour across the other side of the world.

(14:19):
There's a little bit of factors going on there like, Oh, well,
it's not, you know, it's, it's obviously where the, the, the
T-shirt with pride, but there's also the element you're not
representing your country. Yeah, well, Simon used to be the
the assistant coach who's Irish and their defence coach, He's
he's mentioned that they're around that cohesion for them to

(14:39):
be to go well, they need to be able to connect and get on the
same page quickly and be able todo, you know, the same thing at
the same time, I guess. So that'll be a major challenge
for them and it's got it will bea challenge because under
fatigue you tend to revert back to what you know.
So if it's not quite second nature, there might be some

(15:00):
disconnect there, I think, whichis what the Wallabies are
probably counting on and what they can potentially exploit in
some of the games is that lack of, you know, that really deep
understanding of what the man next year is going to be doing.
So. You need to describe the Irish
way of football or rugby. Do you want to talk about how
you describe the era that you played as a Wallaby in a few

(15:23):
words and then also how would you in a few words, also how you
would describe the current era of Australian Rugby Union?
We, we, we just had a, a real focus on doing our jobs well.
Like that for me as a player, like that was my number one
thing was going out there and I,I knew I didn't have to do

(15:44):
anything special, but what I did, I had to do it 100 percent,
100%. At full throttle all the time,
yeah. Yeah.
So that was my base. That was everyone's base.
That's what we needed to deliver.
So the next man could do the same thing.
And in in certain moments you might get the opportunity to do
something a bit special like make a make a play, whether that

(16:07):
be defensively or, or from an attack perspective, it might be
an offload, could be a big tackle.
And that's when you know, guys can step up and, and, and you
know, make a difference. I guess now some players are
better at that than others. In the in the, in the moment of
glory. And in other, in certain areas,
you know, because you've got different, you know, you know,

(16:30):
like Todd Ikefu, for instance, was, was a real really good guy
to play with because he from a, a carry perspective, he had
great footwork and could always find a weak shoulder and was
able to get good gain lines. So to follow him through,
potentially you got an offload or it was an easy clean and then
you could, you know. Keep the momentum forward, yeah,
The next phase, yeah. You know, other players like

(16:54):
that in terms of might be betterdefensively so, you know, make a
difference in their defensive side that, you know, what's
stalking or being real, I guess abrasive in in terms of, you
know, putting a bit of fear factor in the opposition.
The the idea of a successful team, I've, I've delved in a, a
little bit with some people thatwon premierships, etcetera.

(17:16):
And there's some varying views, but, but consistently it's the
same. It's an, it's a A-Team sport,
but very individual. And then the person coming off
the bench knows they're coming off the bench.
They've got 10 minutes, they're going 10 minutes full throttle.
That's their job. And you, you just touched on
that. But then there's also a mixture
of youth and there's a mixture of experience and there's a
mixture of ego thrown in there as well.

(17:36):
What? Why do you reckon your era as
the Wallabies was so successful compared to maybe maybe just the
the modern era? I think Rod McQueen, I was
obviously came in as a coach at the start of that, that
successful period, the late 90s through the early 2000s.
And he's I remember, I remember going into camp the first day, I

(18:01):
think it must have been 1998, our first camp.
And he and he said to us something pretty simple, but
it's pretty, it's pretty important thing.
And he said you blokes will all get on right.
So that's we need to be able to get on together.
You don't have to be best friends, but you've got to be
able to get on. If you don't get on, you won't
be in the team, so. That's a pretty.

(18:22):
Clear message straight up that we needed to to just I guess
just just gel together, right? Just to become as close as we
could mates because mates fight for each other and, and that
that really sort of stuck with me.
And the other thing he probably was really big on was just being

(18:44):
humble, you know, and, and, and very complementary, I guess
towards opposition and everyone else and just, you know, the
simple things like the All Blacks call it sweeping the
sheds. After the game, yeah, that's
right. Leaving those leaving.
Everything, all those things we did at the time and and and

(19:05):
yeah, we certainly were, I thinka pretty humble team and
particularly outwardly, right. Like you know, you might have
your own opinion behind closed doors to to your mate, but we
certainly again had that had that message message drummed
into US. How would you compare Rod
McQueen with then Eddie Jones coming through later on?

(19:26):
Yep. So I was, I had a couple of
years with Eddie as well. And, and look, there's
similarities, right? There's some Eddie's.
Eddie's big thing for me was around the detail.
He saw the game in Rod. Rod had some detail there, but
he was more of a bigger picture guy.
He brought in some good guys in,in and around as an assistant

(19:48):
coaches to be able to cover the detail side of it.
But he was very good at setting a big picture.
Eddie kind of had a bit of a mixof both.
He wanted to know the insurance and outs and everything minute,
but also the big picture. Rod's like I've got some people
here that tell me the insurance and outs, but I'm thinking.
Yeah. And Rod, Rod, look, Rod, Rod was
still across that stuff. But you know, for me anyway, my

(20:12):
opinion was he was really good at setting the scene and setting
the big rocks for us. So these are the things we need
to watch out for. These are these are the key
areas that we we want to really attack.
I thought he was, I thought he was good at that.
And the combination of the assistance he had through his
time was it was good because they brought a little bit more
deeper detail into the specificswhether they've been line out.

(20:34):
You know, maybe it's like a guy like John Muggleton, you know,
ex league. He was our defence coach for
many, many years. He he brought a good level of
detail to our defence and, and, and we trained it over and over
again, right. So, yeah, I think that mix was
good. And then Eddie, Eddie still had
good assistants as well. And, and, and, but he was, he

(20:57):
was more kind of hands on in, in, in training sessions in
terms of like coaching the detail and, and, and having an
eye for it. He speaks even now, he speaks
about having an eye to coach thedetail in the moment.
And it's and it's certainly a skill that's developed as a
coach over time. We touched on the lines sort of

(21:17):
getting together as a group and and and building something.
I'm curious to know a couple of things.
You play for your state and, andit's you're meaningful and you
and you put the jersey on, you play Queensland, NSW or whatever
it might be and then you go to the Wallabies and you have to
almost build culture again there.
How did that go with you? Yeah, I, I don't think I had a

(21:43):
problem with it. Like I I just sort of thinking
back now like I I was the kind of player I needed if I was
playing against someone. You're the what?
Mortal enemy I. Think you're staring at them,
right? Yeah.
My, my mantra was kill or be killed out there.
Like, because you had to, had tophysically like that was part of
my job as a, an in my position and the player I was, was to

(22:07):
really have a kill or be killed mentality, you know, be super
physical, super super aggressiveand, and, and try and, you know,
get gain some advantage out of that.
And for a long time early in my career, I had a long, it was
hard to switch that off post game.
It wasn't until a little bit fewafter a couple of seasons that I

(22:29):
could start to separate it a bitand then go over and talk to the
opposition. And have a maybe a beer with a
beer. Yeah, exactly right.
So, and I wish I would have maybe been like that a bit
earlier, but it was it was the way.
Competitive, right? Yeah, Well, yeah, I think it
was. I think it was just the fact
that, OK, if I've got to play these guys again, I need to, I

(22:50):
need to be, you know, have the red mist ready to go and.
Yeah, no. You know, I didn't want to be
friends, too friendly with them or friends, but because I knew I
had to go out there and put basically trying, as I said,
kill, be killed. So yeah, I, it just took, I
think just a bit of maturity andit took time to sort of figure

(23:11):
that out in my own head that I could, you know, go out there
and hit him hard. And, you know, even even back in
those days, you could throw punches and there'd be fights
and things like that. But then being able to sort of
come off the field and say, you know, as a, you know, that was a
good one. You got landed on me or whatever
It's, you know, that's that thattook a bit of time for me.

(23:31):
Like I remember like a guy like Justin Harrison, for example,
like Justin came on the scene, Ithink what was he around 2000
ish? And playing against him,
Brumbies V Reds was like a nightmare.
Like he was all all over you allthe time.
Remember thinking, who is this dickhead?
And and then we got, we got intocamp right?

(23:56):
And we actually gelled really well.
Like we we, we became really good mates and then we did a lot
of stuff together. I'm Justin.
I know who you are. I don't like you.
Yeah, He's one of the he's a later a doctor.
A later doctor as well. Like he was.
He only started playing when he was 19.
So yeah, and he had a Lions moment as we call.
Him as well. Well, yeah.
Well, yeah, just ask him. He'll tell you about it.

(24:20):
So that's the running joke now. 3 1/2 hour podcast is it?
Yeah, that's right. So, but no, he's a good man and,
you know, I still keep in contact with him today and, and,
and talk to him on and off. So yeah, it's just just just an
example of right, you know, the perception that you have of, you
know, opposition players, you know, is different.

(24:43):
Once, once the once you cross back over that white line and
back into the civilian side of of life.
You talked also about the being best friends with your
teammates. I'm curious to know about where
the coach sits in all of that. Are you best friends with the
coach or you like teach the student like I'm the boss, you
know, or you're out in the beersof the coach, you know, like I'm

(25:05):
I'm interested because it seems like it's a bit closer now,
maybe that they're just they're off field.
There might be godfathers of thekids, you know, all this stuff.
Yeah, yeah, I I think it's, it'sa little bit individual, you
know, some players you're closerto than others.
And, and I know that in myself and then now have been coaching

(25:26):
for about 15 odd years professionally that there's a
couple of guys that I really enjoy catching up with still.
But like there's still separation there.
Like it's not like you go out and get on the beers with them.
You know, you will to a point. And then it's like, OK.
The points there. That is the exit, yeah.
And then you, you kind of interesting, you know, The

(25:47):
Simpsons, that the image of Homer, I am like going back into
the Bush. Yeah.
That's what you do as a coach, right?
If you're out with the boys. So you just try and find the
right moment to cut away and then you leave, leave them to
it, right. So, yeah, that's, that's how
I've sort of treated it. You know, some some don't, some

(26:08):
maybe go a bit longer. But yeah, again, it's some of
those guys that that I spoke about that you're close with.
You sort of catch up on a personal level anyway, outside
of the a rugby environment. Yeah.
And then as a coach looking at players coming through, what do
you look at as a obviously there's different positions in

(26:29):
rugby, but what do you look at as a person that you go actually
I, I can pick that kid, I can pick that person there's.
Probably a couple of things. Character.
It's probably a general, generalthing that coaches would say
that the ability for them to be coachable, I think it's
important. To listen.
Yeah, yeah, all that sort of stuff that, you know, it's not
so much about how skillful they are, but if, if you, I think if

(26:50):
they, you know, if you begin coaching a kid and you and you
can see a level of commitment from them that they, they're
improving and, and, and, and they're, you know, they're on
their rugby journey, then that'sa great motivator for the coach.
And I'm sure it's a great motivator for the, for the

(27:12):
player to see that they're improving as well.
So being coached for the abilityto work, have a good work Reagan
and work ethic is is also. Important when it comes to fun
and rugby and it goes back to your grassroots.
You're probably having fun, you're probably pretty good at
the sports, so that made it fun and a few different things.
Did you have fun through your rugby career?
Oh yeah, yeah. And, and again, like when I
started at school, all my mates,we just all all went in together

(27:36):
and played together. So it was like the group you sit
with at lunchtime that was, you know, half the forward pack and
half the back line. So, you know, and then, you
know, a couple of other guys that that fit into that and you
end up all being mates in the end.
And then oh so. There's a little forward back
thing still, you reckon? Oh.
There's always forward back things.
Yeah, yeah. What do you think about the
backs? That opinion varies from from

(27:59):
game to game and day to day. What are?
The backs thinking about forwards.
Yeah, well. Well, they need us, right?
Because we win the ball, right? And then they get a little bit
pointy. Sometimes with, with possession
and, and that's, that's when I have an issue about it.
But about some of the, the, you know, the, the aim was kicking,
shall we say, all the, all the, all the, the turnovers that that

(28:20):
can happen. But I mean, it's a 15 man guy
and you got to work together and, and it's all about, you
know, supporting each other. Maybe you you you keep them you
certainly try and keep them accountable and and and make
them understand that, you know, we we we've got to we've worked
so hard to get the ball. Yeah, let's let's make sure we
we take care of it when we do get it and and and make good

(28:42):
decisions. So when I.
Was growing up watching AFL, there was a very sort of every
position had its sort of characters and the positions
were the positions and there wasn't a whole lot of like
continuity around the field. And watching people like Mitch
McCoy and David Wilson, you're like, oh wow, they're everywhere
and they're midfielders in the AFL and they're running

(29:02):
everywhere. Now the AFL teams are running
everywhere and they're all fit and everything and they're all
almost, almost all the same sortof character.
How did you go about the game evolving where everyone had to
be a little bit like a fullback or everyone had to be a little
bit like a second rower? Yeah, well, I don't know if
that's such a a thing in rugby because it's it is such a a lot,

(29:27):
a lot of the positions are quitespecialised from a physical
perspective. So you know, the front row,
they've got to have thick necks,but.
They've got to be fit still, youknow?
Yeah. Well, they do, yeah.
And and that's, that's the extraI was talking about.
So their their base and their job is to scrum.
Well, you know more well, you know that tight, tighter, tight
play is, is their, their go to their core role, what we call

(29:52):
our core role. But then they, they, you know,
you get some very skilful front rowers, don't you these days,
Like, you know, they're able to sort of to pass and, and
offload. Step and you know.
All that sort of stand and. Run 20 metres ahead.
Yeah, a guy like Angus Spell currently I I catch belly at the
start of his career at the Waratahs and his ability to to
beat players is as good as any centre almost out there, right.

(30:15):
He's and he's 125 kilos, so he'sgot some great skill that kid
and and, and and he's got a longcareer in the game if he if he
can sort of stay away from the injury, few injuries he's got
lately. So that's you know, you go back
to your question around, you know, the different types of
character there and then how they how they sort of fit into

(30:37):
the game. I think, yeah, it's everyone's
probably got a bit fitter and a bit more dynamic, but there's
still certainly, you know, positions and even positions
within positions. So you, you still can think
about a back row. The best back row is a back row
that's, you know, there's three guys in there, open side

(30:58):
flanker, blind side flanker #8 The best back rows are always
guys that have different things that they're good at.
And so I was, you know, lucky enough to play a lot of my
career with David Wilson, who you miss, who you mentioned,
Todo Kefi, who we've mentioned, and myself.
We were the back row. So we all had a a different
different things we were good atand so as a combination we

(31:18):
gelled quite well. So there's that cohesion factor
that that goes very much into into selecting rugby teams.
And and the yeah, the team within the team, right, That's
the three. Like we can't, we can't not pick
the three, right. For instance, because they
became and the yeah, the centres, the horror, nettles,
etcetera. That's right.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Speaking of, of that era, the

(31:42):
players were known, broadly speaking, recognised in the
street, you know, the posters onthe wall, etcetera.
And the last 20 years we've had the competition of the American
sports event Ko Minis. We've had all these different
things that have come where maybe they're not as recognised
or not as well known. How did you cope with that
attention? And I suppose now how?

(32:03):
How do you get rugby back to know that you can name the
Wallabies 1 to 15 pretty easily as a kid?
Yeah, I, I guess, well, currently they're probably not
as well known, but success brings that, winning brings
that. I wouldn't say I was ever well
known in terms of, you know, involved in winning teams, but I
was, I don't think I regarded myself as a as.

(32:27):
A flamboyant frontline's not thewrong character of.
You know, like it's more just soI kind of did my thing and that
was it, right? Like, you know, whatever.
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the the kind of the new age, it
seems everything seems to be shorter in, in, in terms of
like, you know, just showing bits and pieces as someone was
saying the other day around. That's why the NBA and and the

(32:50):
basketball are doing so well, because they just clip up little
highlights. But all we had was Channel 10 on
a Saturday for like an hour going on and the top ten players
of the week in the NBA and you're like recorded on the VHS
and press rewind and watch it five times right now.
They can follow teams and watch it every morning or whatever
they want to do is I'm a doubtless fan.
Did you see they beat New Jersey?
Like no, like, oh, I watched it at home in the afternoon after

(33:14):
school. So that's why something like
Sevens, you know, has a has a popularity.
But then in saying that World Rugby have cut back a little bit
on the sevens, I think like you know, Ireland I think recently
have have have cut back significantly their programme.
They don't even have a national men's team now.
So yeah, there's there was talk around that.

(33:34):
I'm not sure where that sits right at the moment.
But you know, that shorter form game probably captures a
different athlete to a degree like some of the some of the
those athletes certainly transition across the fifteens,
but certainly in certain positions, right, you don't get
many second rowers, front rowers, obviously playing

(33:55):
sevens, the odd back row, but they may need backs.
But it the the short form of thegame has its appeal to a certain
audience and sort of from a tournament based perspective,
that's that gels really well because you get a lot of games
see a lot of a lot of different teams and, and and and it's got
a carnival type at. That's really interesting you

(34:16):
bring up that point around the sevens because T 20s evolved in
cricket and it came from an exhibition style.
And we had Michael Kasparian recently talking about the first
game where they're all just mucking around and bowling
underarm and having a bit of funand, and to see what's happened
in 20 years for that. Yet Sevens has been around for a
long time but hasn't evolved to.I mean it's a professional
circuit, don't get me wrong, butthat mainstream audience of, you

(34:38):
know, consistent packing out andT20 dominates the summer on
cricket etcetera. Do you think rugby's evolved a
little bit in terms of its innovation?
And looking at league as an example, we've got golden
points, 2 point field goals, little things like that which
kind of excite a bit people a bit more.
Yeah, well, there's been a couple of Super Rounds which,

(34:58):
you know, was stolen probably from rugby league.
Yep. So that's that's one innovation
like that was rundown in Melbourne, so that's no longer
an option there. And I don't think we had one
this year from memory. Super Round this year there have
been some competition organisersthat were having a like a 12 man

(35:23):
team. OK.
So shorten the numbers of the hot points go up, it's a bit
higher. Scoring and then but shorter
halves as well. So there was a proposal, I can't
remember, I think it was over inin England as a proposal around
some sort of high level hybrid type game like that.
Maybe tweak a few rules. So there's been talk about it

(35:44):
and currently there's this 360 comp that's sort of backed by I
think Middle East Saudi money. So I think Mike Tindall might be
involved in that. That's what I hear.
And that's around more of a Formula One style travelling
circus around, you know, play tournament here, tournament here

(36:05):
and then have have a have a likea season based around that.
So they'll need a lot of playersto play in those teams.
So those team might have 8 franchises, but they're they're
targeting some. They certainly got big hopes for
it, but whether it gets off the ground, I'm not sure.
So sort of not Sevens 15. No, no more 15 spaces of.

(36:25):
Yeah, OK. Like a global Formula One style.
Yeah, but the sevens do that now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's similar, similar in
concept I think to the sevens, but a bit more week after week.
So the season would be shorter kind of I guess like a AT20, but
not with shorten time or or or shorten numbers.

(36:48):
Do you think, I mean saying likegrassroots rugby has struggled a
little bit potentially and I don't know the numbers on it,
but I just followed the AFL and the basketball numbers and
they're sort of up because of the white age etcetera.
It's a real thing. What's the solution?
What's your thoughts on that? I mean, yeah, being back in club

(37:11):
rugby and school rugby here, it's it's it's followed pretty
pretty well. I think like this is good off
field support for it. I'd probably say at the moment
we're we're probably not from anon field standards point of view
in terms of the level of play, we're probably a little bit
behind from where we were maybe three years ago.

(37:33):
Say like that's just my gut feelfor watching the games.
And, and there has been a lot ofmovement as well.
Like there's been more competition from overseas
players. So fringe players now can go
over and play in something like the MLR Major League rugby in in
the USA. And whilst that's not no any

(37:54):
Super Rugby level, it's it's a bit of a bridge between sort of
club rugby here in Australia andin the in that next level as in
super level. So it sort of sits in and
around. In between club and super you
reckon Somewhere. In there, yeah.
Like if you're a fringe super player, you're not maybe getting
a contract or you're on the edgethere, then MLR is a good option

(38:15):
to go up and play. That's good to keep people in
the game as a pool, you know, like a otherwise a you know I'm
not good enough for piss off, right?
So professional maybe for six orseven months of the year.
And then, you know, potentially from that an opportunity comes
up to get involved with a with asuper club or go to England or,
or go to France or go to Japan where there's some really good

(38:37):
and quite established competitions.
Are you excited about the futureof rugby?
I think so, yeah, especially here like, you know, we've got
World Cup coming, 2027, the Women's World Cup coming,
depending on what happens with the Olympics, where the sevens

(38:58):
is still involved in that. That's that's an opportunity and
obviously here in Brisbane as well.
So I think there's lots of good things happening.
And then of course the lines tour this year like that's.
Kind of that we mentioned beforethe podcast that they've just
arrived pretty much that's. Right, Yeah.
So that that that thing that tour is is a massive tour.
Like it's every 12 years in the country, obviously every four

(39:20):
years for them. So it's, it's one of the
biggest, well it is the biggest tour that any rugby nation play
or they're a group of Four Nations.
Right. Yes.
So yeah, yeah, yeah. Interestingly, they don't have
an anthem, so it's. Yeah, so I've noticed.
That like at the start? Yeah, forgot about that.
They used to have their socks. They still wear their socks.
That the nation's socks. Yeah, I think so.

(39:43):
Like the French, the blue and the rings.
A bell, Yeah. Yeah, or it might have been the
pants one. Yeah, I think it might have
been. Oh no, I think it's the.
Socks. I think it's socks.
You're right. Yeah, no anthem and no
continuity, whereas the Aussies are.
I'm sure they got a few songs, though.
Their supporters certainly got afew songs.
How did you go with the with theanthem with John Williamson back
in the day? Oh.
It was good, Yeah. And that was that was that was
an excellent. I don't know if it started as a

(40:06):
promotional how it started really, but like him get him
come along. And he used to come into the
sheds after too, after some somewins and and, you know, sit down
and have a yarn and the beer. We used to.
He wasn't. John Howard used to come in back
and. With the jersey on.
Yeah, well, after. He'd been for a walk, yeah.
In a tracksuit? No, he was.

(40:26):
He was wearing proper attire. I think we always used to, you
know, make him drink a beer. He wasn't very good at drinking
beer. He.
He. Wasn't very good at bowling a
cricket ball centre. Well, no, but he, I remember we
had after after we won the the World Cup, we went to the lodge
and had a dinner there one night.
And there was that Marquis at the.
Back in Wales, was it? Yeah.

(40:47):
No, this is in Australia. When we came back, oh, the World
Cup was in Wales. Yeah, 99.
Yeah, we came back, yeah. We came back and they hosted us
down in Canberra, the whole teamand and stuff and we had a good
night and we got him up and to thank him and made him.
I think it was, I think it was armed Finnegan.
Armed Finnegan's a well known joker and and he, he got John

(41:12):
John up, I think, and offered him a beer.
So you got to scale this beer like, you know, thanks for
having us. And so he tried to drink it and
he was like he couldn't finish it.
So he got he got sort of shouteddown, sit down, sit down.
And then Jeanette's wife came upand they gave a beer to her and
she just went boom, necked it. So she showed him up.

(41:33):
Back of the day before social media, before anything, right?
And he got his memories in your head, right?
That's it. Yeah, that's it.
And that's something we we actually talk about today.
You know, it's like, imagine if they had social media back in
those days because we had Vodafone was a sponsor for As I
Come On Board around that 2001 time period.
It was a bit of a telco war game.
Remember the 3G in the cricket? 3G3G?

(41:55):
You had the sponsored the cricket and you had the flip
phone. We could watch the TV.
Yeah, on your phone and everyone's cratering.
What are you doing watching cricket on my phone?
No way. Yeah.
Get in and go. I can't really see it.
That's OK. So Vodafone with the sponsor?
Vodafone, yeah, we toured, I remember we toured in the
season, toured to the UK and Vodafone were pretty big over
there. So they they gave us some credit

(42:15):
on the phone and and it was likethe little flip phone and but it
had a had a camera in it, but the the picture quality back
then little pixelated it was it's so it was so great.
He was like low light like guys are trying to like catch each
other, like take photos. It's a.
Bit blurry mate, not me. Yeah, that's right.
So. But yeah, we, we always say that

(42:37):
we were quite, like I said, halfof us wouldn't have had a career
if if social media was around back then.
So. I'm gonna touch on some
characters in your team. Who?
Who are the ones that you remember the most?
Oh, Owen, Owen was was 1. He was a big pester, but he's
he's done some great work, kids cancer project at the moment.
He's been CEO of that for a longtime and and done a great job
there. And but yeah, he was always

(42:58):
wanting to watch out for he tell.
I think he tells a story around he used to, we used to have to
fill in this well being sheet and he was telling it I think on
another podcast recently that hechecked the well being sheet and
if those whoever sort of said that it might have been a bit
down, that's the place he used to go on target.
So. Doesn't age well.
No, that's right. But but everyone knew what he

(43:21):
was. Like, right.
Yeah, that was, yeah, that was. And he, and he's obviously very
gentle and, you know, yeah. So.
Yeah, yeah, oh mate, so many characters and.
You had some nicknames for people.
Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, obviously Stephen
Larkin, his nickname is Bernie like.
The weekend of Bernie. Yeah, it's.
Quite well known that nickname, but.
I've got a couple of nicknames that I've been told about you

(43:43):
from some, you know, insider sources.
Yeah. What do you reckon they are?
I don't know. You tell me.
Lab rat. Lab rat.
Yeah. Yep, That's one discuss that
actually came from Phil Kearns. So that was.

(44:03):
Done my research email. Yeah, that was that was
Kearnsey. Because he used to try out all
the new things, apparently. Well, like what's?
What's in the 80 ones? Magnesium.
Oh, I'll do. What's that good good for?
I'll take that. Oh, I'll say what?
About you supplements. Supplements and supplements.
And then the the doctor said that some of these things have
only been tested on Lab Rats. So that's how.

(44:24):
That's the. That's how it's, it's sort of
stuck so, but even everything I,I, I took was always legal.
I made sure. Yeah, no, for sure.
Yeah, just. But yet supplements went through
an era of just a rise then of like and I think a couple of
companies got taken out of billions of dollars and black
Moors and things became things. Right.
That's right. Things fish oil.
You like fish oil? Yeah, I haven't been taking it.

(44:46):
I'll take glucosamine and all that sort of stuff at the.
Moment I'm on magnesium at nighttime, but then you know the
night thing, you know, I don't know why, but it feels good I
suppose and I don't get any cramps.
Yeah. I think I've had a hip
replacement. So I, I can blame my father for
that because he's had both, he'sdone.
So he's about the same age he was and he's done.
And so from an, from a, you know, hereditary perspective,

(45:10):
it, it wasn't great. It was ibuprofen.
That's a good one. Hydrolyte every now and then.
It's all. Good mate, it's all good.
What about the other one? It's only been just some Lab
Rats though. So the other nickname?
Yeah. Oh, I don't know.
What the other one? Is someone do the biscuit or
something? I don't know, is that right?
Biscuits. That was my brother more so.
Oh, was it? Oh, maybe they got Cobain mixed.

(45:32):
Up. Yeah.
Shaped like an arrow of biscuit.Yeah, that that was, yeah, that
that that sort of was my brothermore than.
More than you. Oh, maybe the Biscuit Brothers.
Yeah, well, actually that did come out a few times.
So I remember I had one, one nickname actually I used to get
was Boucher. So only a few guys used to call

(45:53):
me that, but like Bobby Boucher,because it was like the the
film. Obviously Adam Sandler,
obviously the waterboy, he used to like lose his nut and go and
smash people. So I used to play a little bit
like that. Kill or be.
Killed, right? That's right.
Kill, be killed. And and so might be a Boucher or

(46:15):
Boucher stuck. Actually, Michael Foley used to
call me Boucher all the time. So there you go.
Yeah, they don't make movies like that these days, no.
Isn't there a new one coming out?
Or maybe Adam Sandler. But now we were talking about
this recently about the Americanpies and things like that, which
is sort of a bit, you know, it'sa bit.
It was part of it's time, right?The Golden.
The golden era era of cinema. Maybe I'm getting old, Matt.

(46:38):
I'm interested to know now as asa as a coach and all the things
that happened in 2025 versus theplayer when you were playing.
How do you coach people now whenthere's cameras everywhere?
There's supplement, there's food, there's diets, there's all
these things which you probably you had a little bit of back in
your day, but now it's just like, and there's money and
there's stardom. Well, firstly, I think back in

(47:01):
our day, we did have all that stuff in place, like whether we,
whether guys did it or not. And it's still the same today,
though some guys don't do it andothers do.
But I think at its core, I've said this before, is that
coaching some people business, right?
Like you're dealing with personalities and people and to

(47:21):
get the best out of people, you got to try and find, you got to
get to know them right and, and,and figure out how they tick
and, and push the right buttons.And that's, that's whether
they're, you know, maybe an Academy member or they're part
of a, a national team, whatever it is, it's like you need to try

(47:43):
and understand where they're coming from, their perceptions
of how things are and then, and then communicate well so you can
get the best out of them. So I, I'll always try and
wherever I go in terms of cominginto a new team, I'll always try
and sit down one on one with theplayers and just get to know
them a bit bit about their background and a bit about how
they, how they they are from a personality point of view.

(48:08):
And that sometimes that's hard because you don't really get a
they, they get a bit guarded. You want to figure into
something that's a bit maybe personal.
Yeah, yeah, I'll try and I'll certainly always ask about
family and, and, and, you know, you've got a girlfriend or a
wife or kids and all that sort of stuff.
Like if you, you know, you can certainly go into the new teams
and even in Japan do that, like you know, you'll have a

(48:29):
translator with you obviously coaching in another language.
But I think it, I think it sets you up to be the best you can be
to try and help them because ultimately you want to want to
help them as much as you can and, and get them bring out the
best in them, right? Squeeze the rock.
Do you think rugby is or or you know, sport is more competitive

(48:54):
now versus fun or do you need tokeep that fun to be good at what
you do? I think the the best teams keep
it fun. When it when it's not fun, it's
it's hard and you tend to be on the losing side of it.

(49:14):
So it's like fun and winning go hand in hand.
But you can be a team that's maximising who you are.
Maybe you just don't have enoughtalent or the depth's not there.
And so those losses build up, but you can still have a really
tight team that's that enjoys each other's company.
And so that's, again, that's a bit of the art form around

(49:37):
coaching, creating an environment that that's
happening. And obviously you got to have
your senior players on board with that as well.
So managing how that that all comes together is a key part I
think in the art side of coaching rather than the XS and
OS of the sports. And then you've been in teams

(49:58):
that you've coached that may have lost three and a trot or
four and the trot and things arelow.
But there you, you think there'ssomething there.
How do you What do you say to them?
Well, just you just got to stickwith the process, right?
Like this is, it's cliche, but it's true.
Like you question yourself. I as a coach, I, I question
myself all the time is should I have done this drill?

(50:18):
Should I need need to do that, But I just try and break it down
to well, what, what, what do we need to do this week to get us,
put us in the best position to win on the weekend?
That's probably consideration one or it might be a longer term
approach where we need to be working on these couple of
things. So in six weeks time, we can be
somewhere closer to that goal of, of being able to execute

(50:41):
these things that we that we that we think are important.
Going into 99 and then O3 the four year campaigns year one or
six months through year one, howdid you think about the World
Cup? Was it just a distant thing or
it was like actually we need to be at our peak in four years
time? Well, I came in in 97 so it was

(51:02):
only a two year lead in really. So the back end of 97 actually
Greg, Greg Smith gave me my first cap.
So I I ran on. France.
France second half, come on for David Wilson.
Actually. And you lost that game.
No, we won that game. We won that game.
Did you win your first Queensland game?
But did the research, maybe you didn't.

(51:23):
I thought there was one win, oneloss, but maybe not.
Anyway, let's not digress. Yeah, OK.
So yeah, Rod, Rod came in and wedid a tour of of Argentina in
the UK and we were, we were, we were poor.
We weren't fit enough. That was clear.
So things needed to change really sort of disappointing

(51:47):
tour. And I was only young, so I was
kind of. Yes.
So no serfs. Yeah, yeah.
So that that tour actually we had I think 34 guys went to
Argentina and only maybe 28 weregoing to the UK to to finish off
games against something Scotlandand England.

(52:07):
So we had two tests against Argentina and we lost the second
one and and I think we may have lost the series there.
We won the first, they won the second anyway, so he had to tell
six guys that that they were going back like halfway through
the tour, which is not always not great, right?
You picked on a tour, you were there for the duration, you

(52:27):
know, Anyway, so after that I think we had one win, one loss,
beat Scotland, maybe lost England, came home and the next
year coming in after being selected, that's when he laid
down the law around, you know, everyone will get on, you know.
It's you mentioned earlier on to.
Change our values, boys. We need to get on board with
with with with this and and behave in a way that that's

(52:49):
going to set us up for success. So part of the big picture there
was getting fit and they broughtSteve Nancy in the legendary
Broncos SNC at the time he was and he got us fit.
So I remember, you know, doing many, many rushing running
sessions up there at Caloundra, around the post, around the
post, around the post. And he and he destroyed a few

(53:10):
guys up there. A bit of lactic acid.
A fair bit, yeah, a fair bit of lactic acid and yeah, it, it was
the building block to exercise so that that that campaign for
the World Cup basically started,you know, in that that season.
So 1998, the beginning of the 1998 test season.

(53:31):
So we had 13 tests that year. We I think we had to qualify for
the World Cup at the back end ofthat year because we played
Fiji, some old Tonga because in 95.
So you had a busy schedule leading up to the World Cup.
So you had probably to win the World Cup, you probably had to
play 20 Tests, right? Some of that 25 or something,
yeah. Yeah, so 98, I think we had 13
tests. I'm pretty sure I played in. 33

(53:54):
or 4 pool games 1/4 or semi. No, no, 9890.
Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah.
And then into, you know, 99 actually before the World Cup.
Yeah, so we had, but the only team that beat us in 98 was
South Africa that beat us twice and then 99, I think we might
have may have shared wins. I think we won Blueslow again

(54:15):
and then into that tournament. The first, first game of the
tournament was against Romania up at All Star.
I I was warming up, slipped overthe warm up, hurt my knee and
couldn't, couldn't, couldn't play.
So ran inside to get strapped, ran back out.
Can't no, I can't run. I can't push off it.
So Owen Finnegan was on the bench.

(54:36):
He went on to start the game andthen Mark Connors, Queenslander,
was in the stand eating a pie and I think he might even had a
beer. So he he, he was called in to
sit on the bench and but he had no gear, right?
So he had he had to borrow my boots.
Luckily they were the same size.Similar.

(54:57):
Spare mouth guard there and, youknow, basically had all my my
jersey kit and all that sort of stuff.
And then, yeah, he ended up playing in the next 15.
Minutes. And it's pretty heartbreaking
for you, right? Yeah, well, I missed the next
game and then got back for the final pool match against USA,
then ended up starting in the quarter final semi.
Final, final, yeah. And so the the thinking process

(55:18):
is a bit like the Olympians as well.
Like you got to prepare for that.
But also next week's, next week,you kind of, well, it's not the
Olympics next week. You just got to do those little
things, little things, little things.
Now Matt, your favourite all time sporting moment.
You can include yourself if you want to, but some people do,
which is great because it's goodstorytelling.
But there's also what about not including yourself?

(55:41):
Yeah, I well, I guess that the one that is the World Cup final.
Right in 99. Yeah, it's a it's a penny call
and, you know, a special event and you know, just that I guess
the the way we'd built over the years and and we had an idea
that we'd probably play the All Blacks in the final, but then

(56:03):
that curveball happened with with the French.
The ball bouncing a few different ways Yeah, the.
French, we ended up facing the French, but we knew nothing
about the French and we had to really do some some study on
them during the week to get up to speed to make sure we could
get the job done. So the way that everyone valued
each other, pushed in the same direction.
I don't think you'd get a betterteam in my opinion that I've

(56:27):
been involved with like that. That was and and and at the high
performance it was, it was generating.
So that that's probably number one in terms of sort of not
being involved in a sport. I always like I said, I love my
cricket. So I like there's not really
anything that turns out. But I used to really enjoy
watching, you know, because likeMichael Bevan, Dean Jones bat

(56:51):
and like I remember just sort ofstaying up when I was young and
and and watching. The West Indies or the England
tours or whatever it might be. The West Indies like up against
the West Indies. Steve Hall back in the day.
Border, you know? Yes, Yeah, you.
Know all all that era I loved and.
Curtly, curtly charging in, Yeah.
And I still watch cricket today like I I really, although I'm a
bit more fair weather like. If we're not doing well, I might

(57:13):
switch it off. You put myself through the
punishment. But I do like it when they when
they when they win, yeah. Yeah.
Oh, there you go the cricket mate.
There's some highlights there Steve Ball hitting a fourth, the
last ball, yeah of the day at the SCG in his last game at the
SCG, not his last game in total,yeah I mean Steve Ball getting
100 in the West Indies against Kirkley and there's so many.

(57:35):
Oh what about Michael Bevans last ball four against the
Indies? The flat bat for that was a
straight down when he just does the at the end.
The One Daya in 9596. That's the image I've got in my
head. Yeah, just him just standing
there. Just yeah.
And we were, we were four for nothing and whatever.
And. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot.
Of Phil Simmons, you had a Carl Hooper, all the legends of the
game, playing for the West Indies back then.

(57:55):
It's so it's such, such an interesting sport, right,
Because it's very individual in a, in a, in a team environment.
Yeah, no, like if you get 100, like that's a hugely individual.
There's nothing that I mean, there's a couple of things that
your teammate at the non strikers can do.
They might run an extra singles,but you're the one that's facing
the heat, right? Yeah, that's right.

(58:16):
Very individual. And sometimes as a as a player,
you might go, well, I'm a numbersix batter and my role is this,
but you just don't get a bat. So you're going, well, my role's
done, I think, and. You kind of feel like you
haven't contributed that. Yeah, That's that's.
Or I'm a bowler. Do you get taken off after two
overs? You're like, my job's to bowl
but obviously got hit around. So interesting.

(58:38):
I guess you've got to make it upin other areas if the.
Feelings of the run out or whatever it might be.
Yeah. And the scoreboard moment is an
interesting one. It's like a moment in time which
is very vivid. And we talked about the 99 World
Cup, but maybe something which is like, jeez, it takes me back.
And I remember that moment. And from then things changed.
Yep, again rugby moment. For me it was around winning the

(59:01):
96 club premiership with jeeps. We got the shirt on today.
Yeah, yeah. About to go up there and coach
now, but we had Tony Darcy was our coach then and he pulled
together A-Team over a couple ofyears of build up, similar to
what we did at the World Cup in fact.
And then, you know, we had a couple of fringe guys.

(59:22):
I think Ben, Ben Tune was part of that team as a 19 year old.
We had young, young Dan Herbert as well as the two Wallabies, a
guy called Ryan Constable as well and played for the.
Board yeah he ended up coaching at grandma for a bit he wasn't
grandma for a bit yeah yeah the blonde haired just.
Blonde hair. He's an agent now.
He's been living in an island for a long time.
Yep, we had a we. Had a he was in the centres,

(59:43):
wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, a bit.
A good side, but we came up against South in the final and
South had like 12 Wallabies or something like that. 10
Wallabies. Yeah, the Horans and oh.
Yeah, Horans and I think the centres were Horan and.
Kafu. Kef, Kef Blade, Brett Robinson,
you, you know, hit a world rugby, you know, I was like

(01:00:03):
Michael Foley, Stylesy. So they had a Garrett Morgan
before? He went to uni.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So no stylesy stylesy S, wasn't he?
I think he was uni anyway but a good team.
Where where where Magpies becameWallabies.
I remember the phrase on Fairfield Rd.
And so we, we, it was a, it was a bit of a dire game.

(01:00:24):
It was 12/6, all penalties, but it was a, it was all built
around belief. Like we Das had a great theme of
climbing Mount Everest. And this was our Everest.
And, and we had, you know, some people who had been on Everest
speak to us and sort of they, they really.
Thought literally been on Everest or just.
I think his name was Doctor JohnTasky Who?

(01:00:46):
Was Oh yes, I've heard him speak, but he's.
Got a book, so he. Yeah, he's.
Got a book about I think the movie.
He was sort of featured in a movie, but it wasn't.
It was a disaster it. Was based on his.
Like, it wasn't him, but it was like, yeah, we're based on this
character on John Tasky. Yeah, I think in his expedition
it was like 8 people. Died, yeah. 1996 So it just
happened and he came and spoke to us.
I remember it was just at a hotel like in Spring Hill and he

(01:01:12):
said that his training and all that, he said he, he didn't
realise how far he could push his body and, and how much his
mind could, could take or his body could take if his mind was
right. That's what he said.
So that was really for us, that was something that we had to

(01:01:32):
find within ourselves. And, and I remember a specific
moment there in, in the final because I'd, I'd actually been
injured before and so I was a bit underdone.
So I was, I was feeling it. And I remember a guy called Mark
Murray, our flanker and captain,who was just a legend of like
country guy, you know, played for Queensland.
And he just, he just literally, I was on the ground.

(01:01:53):
He just grabbed me by the scruffand said, get up, you're not
tired, you're not tired. I just thought of that moment
and I wasn't, I was able to pushthrough.
And so that, that, you know, moment within, within a moment.
That's, that's probably one of one of the key things I think I
learned around that, around justtrying to push that pain to the
side to go a bit harder, even ifit's just for the next 30

(01:02:15):
seconds and see what happens then, then, you know, I might
get a rest or it might be, it might be 45 seconds and then I
might get a rest, but I've got to keep going and, and at the
moment there'll be a chance for me to recover and then I can
reset go again. So that, that win, I think it
was a, it was a key moment. And in that, in that moment,

(01:02:35):
within the moment of him pullingme up and and pushing, that sort
of brought back the memories of,of John speaking about being
able to push yourself really. Hard and that deep connection
potentially like thinking that yourself might be on Everest,
right Going this is a moment where you might it's life or
death to be honest and you just need to pick yourself up.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess I wasn't
thinking. I was like pretty, pretty

(01:02:56):
breathing pretty heavy at the time, but it was, it was all
about like not wanting to let the team down and then like
that, that's what it was about, right?
And the way that to do that was to get up and go again and, and
knowing that I just had to push the, the, the fatigue to the
back of my head because I knew my body was would be able to
handle it. One final question, it's about

(01:03:17):
parental behaviour and support. Now for kids, things get a
little bit competitive on the sidelines etcetera.
What's your advice as a parent to watching your child go out
there and playing sport, whetherit's win, lose or draw?
Yeah, well, my kids are well andtruly grown up, but back when we
did go to this, this sporting things, it's just about

(01:03:37):
enjoyment, right? Just let them, let them do what
they they want to do. And it's interesting how my
daughter's the one that's involved in rugby.
My son sort of played a little bit when he was younger, but
he's sort of, he's over in Perthnow working over there.
And my daughter though she's involved, she's actually GM of
Vikings rugby club in Canberra. So yes, she, she worked for

(01:04:00):
Brothers here for a few years, which is always hard to take
obviously being GPS. Yeah, but I wish you well.
Yeah, yeah. But she enjoyed her time over
there. But she's got a new challenge
down there and she's, she started, only started playing
rugby like 2 years ago at, at Brothers and had a, you know,
they have built their women's team up.
But she's playing down there at the Vikings and really enjoying

(01:04:22):
it. So, and that's why she plays it
because she just, she enjoys being around the girls.
Because I said, you know, I was a little bit, do you really want
to, you know, get injured? And she did get injured.
You got a bad injury at the start of it when she first
started playing. But she, she got back and she
pushed through and she enjoys the camaraderie around.
And so I think, yeah, from a, from a parent's perspective to

(01:04:46):
their child, let them play what they want to play, let them
enjoy, let them be with their mates, just like I did when we,
when we took out rugby back in high school and we all did it
together and, and, and we had a great time.
So that's, I think that's the secret to do it is in whether
you're, you know, under Elevens or internationally, if you, if

(01:05:06):
you enjoy what you're doing, you'll get more out of it.
And the parents let you enjoy itas well.
Yeah, definitely. Not sort of like, oh, mate, you
dropped the ball, you didn't have a good sleep last.
Yeah, the feedback, feedback, criticism.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if it's framed in the
right way and and and like if it's a kid, sort of.
Encourages it. Yeah, yeah, encourages it.
What did I do wrong? What do you think?

(01:05:26):
Yeah. What?
Do you think Dad? Yeah or Mum?
What? What?
What? Are you not the Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Interesting not.
Forced upon them, but yeah, likeif they if they ask, then
certainly you can offer. But yeah, always frame it in a
way that sort of comes from a position of love and respect.
That cameo fish on that high night, that was a great way to
finish. Thank you so much for being on

(01:05:48):
school board, the podcast and sharing your story through your
life in, in and around rugby, onand on the field and off the
field. And congratulations on what
you've achieved thus far, and all the best in the next phase
of life. Thanks, Chris.