May 8, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode of the Scrum.org Community Podcast, Patricia Kong talks with Professional Scrum Trainer Joanna Plaskonka about why psychological safety is critical for effective Scrum Teams. Joanna explains how it fuels openness, innovation, and accountability—while its absence leads to poor collaboration, low morale, and missed opportunities. Through real-world examples, she dispels common myths and shares how leaders can foster a culture where teams feel safe to take risks, challenge ideas, and grow. This conversation highlights that psychological safety isn’t a “nice-to-have”—it’s essential for delivering real value.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Velecina (00:00):
Music. Welcome to the scrum.org community
(00:04):
podcast, a podcast from the homeof Scrum. In this podcast, we
feature professional scrumtrainers and other scrum
practitioners sharing theirstories and experiences to help
learn from the experience ofothers. We hope you enjoy this
episode.
Patricia Kong (00:20):
Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community
Podcast. I'm Patricia Kong withscrum.org and today we have a
PST from Poland. I'm going totry to do this right? Johanna
PUAs Conca,
Joanna Plaskonka (00:34):
Oh, wow.
Trish, that was amazing. Thank
Patricia Kong (00:37):
you. Wow. Okay, the toughest part was over. How
are you? Joanna,
Joanna Plaskonka (00:44):
I'm good.
Thank you so much. Thank you forinvitation, and I'm super
excited to have thisconversation today with you.
Good.
Patricia Kong (00:51):
I am too, especially because of the topics
that we might hit. But this isinteresting. So in terms of
psychological safety, you haddone a webinar or webcast
already with with scrum.orgthere's been a lot of questions
around it and some interest, andthat was called the importance
(01:11):
of importance of psychologicalsafety in Scrum teams. And you
may have mentioned it there,but, but I am curious just why
is this topic important to you?
I know you said you were gettingyou got training on it, and you
you've gotten some certificationaround it, but, but what, what
led you to it as a topic, andwhat made you think about this
(01:35):
for Scrum teams?
Joanna Plaskonka (01:40):
That's a very good question. So I think that
what convinced me that I shouldstudy the topic was the
realization that this issomething that significantly
influences teams effectiveness,right? So if this is something
that can contribute to valuecreation. Wow, for me, sounds
(02:03):
like something that I shoulddefinitely know a lot about.
Patricia Kong (02:08):
Has it, has it, has it helped you and how you
work with teams and your clientsand maybe even your personal
life. It's always interestingwhen you gain more knowledge,
like what it does for me, atleast, and how I interact with
the world,
Joanna Plaskonka (02:23):
definitely. So I started introducing this topic
to my clients and customers toshow them that this is the area
that, in my experience, is quiteoften forgotten, neglected,
right? And a lot of people aresurprised why certain things do
(02:43):
not work right. And sometimes Icall psychological safety like a
secret ingredient in yourkitchen, or this little, small
thing that can change, changeeverything. So what I absolutely
love is that psychologicalsafety, or achieving high level
of psychological safety. It'snot your ultimate goal, but this
(03:07):
is the enabler, enabler of somegreat things to happen.
Patricia Kong (03:13):
So today I know we want to talk about, because
you were talking about the valuebit of how this is something
that teams and organizations andpeople in general can focus on,
because it's really going todrive some effectiveness on what
we can achieve. And so I knowthat we want to get into kind of
the cost, like, if you don't, ifyou don't do this, what are you
(03:36):
kind of leaving on the table?
What? What's the cost ofignoring it? But I'm wondering,
if you can help me understandwhat what psychological safety
looks like in the scrum team.
Have you, have you even seenthat? Have you even seen that
exist?
Joanna Plaskonka (03:55):
Yes, I did.
Yes, I did. I can give you someexamples during a lot of those
experiences, I wasn't aware thatwe are speaking about
psychological safety, but I knewsomething good is happening,
right? So what I saw maybe toconnect it with Scrum
vocabulary, that psychologicalsafety is actually hidden
(04:19):
between scrum values. So whenthe company is struggling to see
to experience tough but open,respectful, valuable
conversations between, forinstance, team members, yes, we
have connections with Scrumvalues, and what we can do is
(04:40):
actually increase the level ofpsychological safety in such
situations to make thoseconversations happen. Let me
show you two examples with lowpsychological safety and high
psychological safety in a verysimilar context. So low
psychological safety people aresitting in the room, you can
(05:03):
feel, Oh, something is wronghere, right? There is an
elephant in the room. Nobodywants to talk about that. And we
are like kind, but it resemblesmore like talking to a kind
walls. Okay, so the actualimportant topic is omitted. We
(05:25):
talk about a lot of stuff, butthis is not the what is the most
important? Imagine a retrosprint retrospective that ends
up with some conclusions, but wewere dancing around the subject
and not pointing out the biggestproblem, and thus we were not
focused on finding the bestsolutions how to solve that.
(05:51):
Another example, the real lifeexample that happens to me. I
was so proud and so amazed tosee that between two engineers,
one of them was courageous tosay to the other one, listen, I
think that the problem is thatwe are forgetting that we are
(06:14):
the team. And if we are unableto work as a team, then we have
a huge problem and we shouldaddress it. What about talking
to our managers? This is not aneasy to speak out like that, but
this was definitely a sign thatthis person feels
(06:35):
psychologically safe to pointout the problem and be ready to
take accountability of theactions. So for me, this is what
I want to see. And by the way,some changes happened, and they
were good for those individuals,for that team, right? But it
required this tough conversationto to happen.
Patricia Kong (07:00):
That's nice.
That's nice how you're, you're,you know, I don't know if you
meant to or not, but you'retying that back to the scrum
values. And it sounds like thesepeople were courageous, and
they're being respectful andopen and and they're actively
building conflict. They'resaying, we have a conflict.
Let's go talk about it. Sothat's nice in terms of, you
(07:22):
know, what it can look like,what it what it looks like when
there isn't psychologicalsafety. One of the things that
I'm wondering is, when you thinkabout the team that doesn't have
psychological safety, what, whatare they unable to accomplish?
Versus a team that we might calla high performing team,
Joanna Plaskonka (07:51):
I absolutely love the vocabulary that you
use, because the same the sameone was used by both Professor
Amy Edmondson, who studied thetopic of psychological safety a
lot, and she she built all thefoundations for all of us. And
also it is consistent with thevocabulary used by by Google,
(08:12):
they were also interested inthat topic. So generally, one of
the biggest costs that we willpay when not paying attention to
psychological safety is reducedperformance and effectiveness.
So I believe that's that's akiller, right? That's something
(08:34):
that is extremely important. AndI've never met a manager not
interested in high performanceand high high results, outcomes,
high effectiveness. Sodefinitely, we have evidence and
good stories that show it is oneof the biggest cost but it's not
(08:56):
the only one. So lowpsychological safety means that
we have problems when it comesto learning innovation and
connecting back to ourvocabulary. Product discovery,
product validation is isdifficult, is ineffective. We
are lacking opportunities.
Opportunities there. There arealso aspects related to
(09:20):
motivation, to employeesturnover. It affects
communication in a negative way.
Low psychological safety, wehave worse collaboration. It
affects taking accountability,so low psychological safety
means Scrum teams, Scrum teammembers might avoid taking
(09:47):
accountability. And last but notleast, in the end, all of that
will affect customer, customersatisfaction, because we might
have more errors or poorer.
Quality of the products, of thesolutions delivered. What
Patricia Kong (10:05):
I what I appreciate, is so we're at a
point, I think, or we've been ata point in the industry where
people go, oh agile, oh Scrum. Iknow there's, there's been a lot
of talk about that in Polandespecially, oh, it's dead. Oh,
these things. So what would youradvice be for teams that are
(10:31):
feeling unsafe? So a scrum teamright now, who is using Scrum,
you know, or maybe they'reafraid to even use Scrum or
agile or something, because eventhings like this would affect
the the identity of the team,because they're a scrum team or
something. So what would whatwould you do when talking to
them? Because I think a lot ofpeople will say, hey, Scrum and
(10:53):
Agile failed because it's notworking. We overarched, and all
we talk about is our feelings,right? We weren't focused. And
so what I really appreciate isyou were talking about, hey,
this is, this is somethingactually, that can help our
performance. It can help us dobetter. We're still focused on
the customer. And so I thinkthat part is nice. What I'm
wondering is, for that teamright now that says we're a
(11:15):
scrum team, it kind of works,but everybody tell us, you know,
this isn't the right way. It'sold fashioned. What would your
advice be for them as they tryto develop some more safety
around their identity orconfidence? Probably that's
Joanna Plaskonka (11:30):
a very good question. So it sounds like a
great opportunity to buildFoundation, and in my view,
psychological safety. Soachieving high level of
psychological safety is a greatfoundation, because when we
build that as a team, we mightfind more space for innovation
(11:53):
and creativity. And we know thatthere is no one scrum by the
book, because Scrum is aframework, right? So it requires
a lot of learning, whichsometimes we forget, right? Or
people believe we will just readscrum guide and that's it. No,
we need to find a lot ofcomplementary practices that
(12:14):
will become our practices. Someof them will not right. So maybe
it's actually a good idea tobuild a high level of
psychological safety andexperiment a lot, also on the
process level. So what are thepractices that serve us? What
are the practices that help usbecome better in delivering
(12:38):
value to our customers, andmaybe as a result, over time, we
will rediscover Scrum and Agileas our way, but we will do it
differently this time. Um, Ilove
Patricia Kong (12:54):
that, because I almost set you up. So it was, it
was, um, right, because itreiterated the fact how you are
saying psychological safetyisn't a goal, so you're talking
about the state of that teamand, and, and I think,
obviously, I feel like even inthis short talk, we've we've
said, Hey, here's the benefits,here's what happens if you don't
(13:15):
do it. And I really think thatone piece, especially in today's
conversations, at least in mypart of the world, it's a lot
about how I feel, how therapyhelps us mental health,
psychology. So I want to addresssome of the misunderstandings
which you were starting to do.
And one of the things thatpeople, I find have been doing,
(13:36):
at least from a psychologicalpoint of view is they
pathologize, or they try to,they try to say, Oh, this bad
experience, this challenge is isnot good for my psychological
safety. And I think there's amisunderstanding that that every
struggle or every challenge youhit isn't, isn't traumatic, it's
(13:58):
not it's not unsafe. So for ascrum team where you were just
talking about like, hey, yes,you're in a challenging time,
there's some differentconversations. This is, this is
something that you can workthrough, and that's where the
psychological safety will helpyou. What other ways would you
say to advise a team to thinkabout their ability to grow and
(14:19):
feeling uncomfortable and notmistaking that for, you know, as
a threat to the well being of ateam, let's say,
Joanna Plaskonka (14:34):
Oh, I love that question very much. So
maybe I can also start withsharing some of the myths or
misunderstanding related topsychological safety. So I've
heard that psychological safetyis an excuse, right? So whenever
I don't like something or, Oh,it's not easy, okay, it's
(14:55):
challenging, I will say it'sendangering my psychological
safety. Or psychological safetymeans that we should always be
smiling, big smile on our faces,and you know, unicorns, rainbows
all over the sky every singleday, but we know what is the
weather, right? Sometimes wehave beautiful sunny days, and
(15:17):
sometimes it's raining cats anddogs. And psychological safety
means I feel safe to takeinterpersonal risk, which means,
for instance, I'm okay to admitI committed an error. I'm okay
(15:39):
to present differentperspective. I'm okay to
challenge certain idea, still ina kind and respectful way. So in
fact, psychological safety is aninvitation to face uncomfortable
situation and takeaccountability for for that in
(16:03):
psychologically safeenvironment, our colleagues will
not treat this question, ideachallenge as a threat, but as an
opportunity, right? It willnever be easy to hear Hey,
Jonah, but what if we look atyour idea from different
perspective, maybe my first wayof thinking would be, oh no.
(16:27):
They think I'm stupid, and thisis what high psychological
safety should help me realize.
Oh so they want me to polish myidea, and they want to co create
it so that it will be evenbetter. So this is what
psychology, psychological safetyhelps you achieve.
Patricia Kong (16:48):
That's funny.
It's actually reminding me. So acouple of years I published a
facilitation book, and one ofthe drivers was that all this
kind of bad facilitation, andthese icebreakers and all that
stuff. And it's really, it'smaking me think about how you're
talking about psychologicalsafety, because somebody with a
good intent, they had all theselittle fun games, all these
(17:10):
icebreakers and and they do thatsometimes because they say, Oh,
we're trying to build teambonding. We're trying to build
safety. But when they only thinkabout that, it's almost like
they're trying to create anemotional space where people can
always just feel maybeentertained or happy, and people
will mistake that, that there isan environment where they're
(17:32):
catering to a certain emotionthey want to feel, and that's
not necessarily building thepsychological safety. It's very
much what you say, I agree aboutknowing that you can essentially
handle yourself, and that yousee invitation and opportunity,
and that really ties back to anagile mindset and the scrum
values, which you pointed out.
And I think another thing, if Ican just add to what you were
(17:54):
saying, is this notion ofthinking about psychological
safety in a way that helps yoube more effective, not as a
crutch, not as something thatyou can be dependent on, and
just say, Oh no, we're notfeeling safe, because that's
that's actually going to, youknow, decrease collaboration and
communication to to help us bebetter. And I think that's
(18:14):
what's kind of cool. If youthink about the accountabilities
in Scrum, like, hey, we havepurpose, and we can call each
other on that when it's notworking out. So, so what are you
working on next in this topicthat you would want to share
with our listeners, because thishas been quite a topic that is
(18:37):
really interesting, I know toyou, but like every a lot of a
lot of people are talking aboutthis and negotiation and
definitely these type of topics,I think, especially in the
strange times that we're livingin right now. So what should
they expect from you next?
Joanna Plaskonka (18:51):
So definitely, I'm willing to share some
knowledge in that topic when itcomes to leaders, because
leaders have enormous impact onpsychological safety both ways,
actually. So they can help, helpto make it high relatively
quickly, but sometimes evenunconsciously. They can. They
(19:15):
can, unfortunately decrease it,and they may not be aware. Why
is it happening? What'shappening? So I see this topic
of psychological safety throughleaders perspective, different
leaders, so it might be evenexecutive. They can contribute
significantly. So I see thistopic as something that I'm
(19:37):
definitely willing to work on.
And I also have a certain modelin my head about psychological
safety for your own, especiallyif you are independent
consultant, solopreneur. Irealized in last month that
there is a quite interesting i.
(20:00):
Idea in my head, and it'salready helped someone. So I'm
happy to to go into thatdirection too. Maybe I will be
also able to contribute to tothis knowledge about
psychological safety. Oh,
Patricia Kong (20:17):
that sounds quite, quite a tease. Very
interesting. Okay, so we wantedto keep this a little bit
shorter, because there's so muchinformation and it's, it's
really, it's really not fair tounpack the topic in in 20
minutes. But Johanna, where elsecan people get in contact with
you if they want to learn moreabout psychological safety,
(20:41):
leadership and psychologicalsafety, that kind of hits on
culture. But also I like, I likethe extension out to
entrepreneurs and and and peoplelike yourself in your space,
Joanna Plaskonka (20:54):
so you can they can reach out to me via
LinkedIn. They can just check myname. My profile is public. They
can find my profile@scrum.orgbecause I'm a PST and contact me
there. They can also visit mywebsite Johanna plus conca.com
they can book also on mywebsite, a short free call to
(21:19):
just have a have a virtualcoffee with me. They can also
check my YouTube channel, Scrumwith Johanna. So anyway is good
when the outcome is achieved. Sohaving a meaningful conversation
with
Patricia Kong (21:35):
me, Oh, that's great. Lots of ways. I hope
everyone, or some people takeadvantage of that, and even if
they have questions that theywant, you know, don't be shy.
Throw them over to Johanna andmaybe she can even just include
it in our next talks. So thankyou to you. Have a wonderful
day. Thank you to our listeners.
That's it for us today. Thankyou so much. Scrum on Thank you
Joanna Plaskonka (22:01):
very much.
Scrummorg.
Music. Welcome to the scrum.org community
(00:04):
podcast, a podcast from the homeof Scrum. In this podcast, we
feature professional scrumtrainers and other scrum
practitioners sharing theirstories and experiences to help
learn from the experience ofothers. We hope you enjoy this
episode.
Patricia Kong (00:20):
Hello and welcome to the scrum.org community
Podcast. I'm Patricia Kong withscrum.org and today we have a
PST from Poland. I'm going totry to do this right? Johanna
PUAs Conca,
Joanna Plaskonka (00:34):
Oh, wow.
Trish, that was amazing. Thank
Patricia Kong (00:37):
you. Wow. Okay, the toughest part was over. How
are you? Joanna,
Joanna Plaskonka (00:44):
I'm good.
Thank you so much. Thank you forinvitation, and I'm super
excited to have thisconversation today with you.
Good.
Patricia Kong (00:51):
I am too, especially because of the topics
that we might hit. But this isinteresting. So in terms of
psychological safety, you haddone a webinar or webcast
already with with scrum.orgthere's been a lot of questions
around it and some interest, andthat was called the importance
(01:11):
of importance of psychologicalsafety in Scrum teams. And you
may have mentioned it there,but, but I am curious just why
is this topic important to you?
I know you said you were gettingyou got training on it, and you
you've gotten some certificationaround it, but, but what, what
led you to it as a topic, andwhat made you think about this
(01:35):
for Scrum teams?
Joanna Plaskonka (01:40):
That's a very good question. So I think that
what convinced me that I shouldstudy the topic was the
realization that this issomething that significantly
influences teams effectiveness,right? So if this is something
that can contribute to valuecreation. Wow, for me, sounds
(02:03):
like something that I shoulddefinitely know a lot about.
Patricia Kong (02:08):
Has it, has it, has it helped you and how you
work with teams and your clientsand maybe even your personal
life. It's always interestingwhen you gain more knowledge,
like what it does for me, atleast, and how I interact with
the world,
Joanna Plaskonka (02:23):
definitely. So I started introducing this topic
to my clients and customers toshow them that this is the area
that, in my experience, is quiteoften forgotten, neglected,
right? And a lot of people aresurprised why certain things do
(02:43):
not work right. And sometimes Icall psychological safety like a
secret ingredient in yourkitchen, or this little, small
thing that can change, changeeverything. So what I absolutely
love is that psychologicalsafety, or achieving high level
of psychological safety. It'snot your ultimate goal, but this
(03:07):
is the enabler, enabler of somegreat things to happen.
Patricia Kong (03:13):
So today I know we want to talk about, because
you were talking about the valuebit of how this is something
that teams and organizations andpeople in general can focus on,
because it's really going todrive some effectiveness on what
we can achieve. And so I knowthat we want to get into kind of
the cost, like, if you don't, ifyou don't do this, what are you
(03:36):
kind of leaving on the table?
What? What's the cost ofignoring it? But I'm wondering,
if you can help me understandwhat what psychological safety
looks like in the scrum team.
Have you, have you even seenthat? Have you even seen that
exist?
Joanna Plaskonka (03:55):
Yes, I did.
Yes, I did. I can give you someexamples during a lot of those
experiences, I wasn't aware thatwe are speaking about
psychological safety, but I knewsomething good is happening,
right? So what I saw maybe toconnect it with Scrum
vocabulary, that psychologicalsafety is actually hidden
(04:19):
between scrum values. So whenthe company is struggling to see
to experience tough but open,respectful, valuable
conversations between, forinstance, team members, yes, we
have connections with Scrumvalues, and what we can do is
(04:40):
actually increase the level ofpsychological safety in such
situations to make thoseconversations happen. Let me
show you two examples with lowpsychological safety and high
psychological safety in a verysimilar context. So low
psychological safety people aresitting in the room, you can
(05:03):
feel, Oh, something is wronghere, right? There is an
elephant in the room. Nobodywants to talk about that. And we
are like kind, but it resemblesmore like talking to a kind
walls. Okay, so the actualimportant topic is omitted. We
(05:25):
talk about a lot of stuff, butthis is not the what is the most
important? Imagine a retrosprint retrospective that ends
up with some conclusions, but wewere dancing around the subject
and not pointing out the biggestproblem, and thus we were not
focused on finding the bestsolutions how to solve that.
(05:51):
Another example, the real lifeexample that happens to me. I
was so proud and so amazed tosee that between two engineers,
one of them was courageous tosay to the other one, listen, I
think that the problem is thatwe are forgetting that we are
(06:14):
the team. And if we are unableto work as a team, then we have
a huge problem and we shouldaddress it. What about talking
to our managers? This is not aneasy to speak out like that, but
this was definitely a sign thatthis person feels
(06:35):
psychologically safe to pointout the problem and be ready to
take accountability of theactions. So for me, this is what
I want to see. And by the way,some changes happened, and they
were good for those individuals,for that team, right? But it
required this tough conversationto to happen.
Patricia Kong (07:00):
That's nice.
That's nice how you're, you're,you know, I don't know if you
meant to or not, but you'retying that back to the scrum
values. And it sounds like thesepeople were courageous, and
they're being respectful andopen and and they're actively
building conflict. They'resaying, we have a conflict.
Let's go talk about it. Sothat's nice in terms of, you
(07:22):
know, what it can look like,what it what it looks like when
there isn't psychologicalsafety. One of the things that
I'm wondering is, when you thinkabout the team that doesn't have
psychological safety, what, whatare they unable to accomplish?
Versus a team that we might calla high performing team,
Joanna Plaskonka (07:51):
I absolutely love the vocabulary that you
use, because the same the sameone was used by both Professor
Amy Edmondson, who studied thetopic of psychological safety a
lot, and she she built all thefoundations for all of us. And
also it is consistent with thevocabulary used by by Google,
(08:12):
they were also interested inthat topic. So generally, one of
the biggest costs that we willpay when not paying attention to
psychological safety is reducedperformance and effectiveness.
So I believe that's that's akiller, right? That's something
(08:34):
that is extremely important. AndI've never met a manager not
interested in high performanceand high high results, outcomes,
high effectiveness. Sodefinitely, we have evidence and
good stories that show it is oneof the biggest cost but it's not
(08:56):
the only one. So lowpsychological safety means that
we have problems when it comesto learning innovation and
connecting back to ourvocabulary. Product discovery,
product validation is isdifficult, is ineffective. We
are lacking opportunities.
Opportunities there. There arealso aspects related to
(09:20):
motivation, to employeesturnover. It affects
communication in a negative way.
Low psychological safety, wehave worse collaboration. It
affects taking accountability,so low psychological safety
means Scrum teams, Scrum teammembers might avoid taking
(09:47):
accountability. And last but notleast, in the end, all of that
will affect customer, customersatisfaction, because we might
have more errors or poorer.
Quality of the products, of thesolutions delivered. What
Patricia Kong (10:05):
I what I appreciate, is so we're at a
point, I think, or we've been ata point in the industry where
people go, oh agile, oh Scrum. Iknow there's, there's been a lot
of talk about that in Polandespecially, oh, it's dead. Oh,
these things. So what would youradvice be for teams that are
(10:31):
feeling unsafe? So a scrum teamright now, who is using Scrum,
you know, or maybe they'reafraid to even use Scrum or
agile or something, because eventhings like this would affect
the the identity of the team,because they're a scrum team or
something. So what would whatwould you do when talking to
them? Because I think a lot ofpeople will say, hey, Scrum and
(10:53):
Agile failed because it's notworking. We overarched, and all
we talk about is our feelings,right? We weren't focused. And
so what I really appreciate isyou were talking about, hey,
this is, this is somethingactually, that can help our
performance. It can help us dobetter. We're still focused on
the customer. And so I thinkthat part is nice. What I'm
wondering is, for that teamright now that says we're a
(11:15):
scrum team, it kind of works,but everybody tell us, you know,
this isn't the right way. It'sold fashioned. What would your
advice be for them as they tryto develop some more safety
around their identity orconfidence? Probably that's
Joanna Plaskonka (11:30):
a very good question. So it sounds like a
great opportunity to buildFoundation, and in my view,
psychological safety. Soachieving high level of
psychological safety is a greatfoundation, because when we
build that as a team, we mightfind more space for innovation
(11:53):
and creativity. And we know thatthere is no one scrum by the
book, because Scrum is aframework, right? So it requires
a lot of learning, whichsometimes we forget, right? Or
people believe we will just readscrum guide and that's it. No,
we need to find a lot ofcomplementary practices that
(12:14):
will become our practices. Someof them will not right. So maybe
it's actually a good idea tobuild a high level of
psychological safety andexperiment a lot, also on the
process level. So what are thepractices that serve us? What
are the practices that help usbecome better in delivering
(12:38):
value to our customers, andmaybe as a result, over time, we
will rediscover Scrum and Agileas our way, but we will do it
differently this time. Um, Ilove
Patricia Kong (12:54):
that, because I almost set you up. So it was, it
was, um, right, because itreiterated the fact how you are
saying psychological safetyisn't a goal, so you're talking
about the state of that teamand, and, and I think,
obviously, I feel like even inthis short talk, we've we've
said, Hey, here's the benefits,here's what happens if you don't
(13:15):
do it. And I really think thatone piece, especially in today's
conversations, at least in mypart of the world, it's a lot
about how I feel, how therapyhelps us mental health,
psychology. So I want to addresssome of the misunderstandings
which you were starting to do.
And one of the things thatpeople, I find have been doing,
(13:36):
at least from a psychologicalpoint of view is they
pathologize, or they try to,they try to say, Oh, this bad
experience, this challenge is isnot good for my psychological
safety. And I think there's amisunderstanding that that every
struggle or every challenge youhit isn't, isn't traumatic, it's
(13:58):
not it's not unsafe. So for ascrum team where you were just
talking about like, hey, yes,you're in a challenging time,
there's some differentconversations. This is, this is
something that you can workthrough, and that's where the
psychological safety will helpyou. What other ways would you
say to advise a team to thinkabout their ability to grow and
(14:19):
feeling uncomfortable and notmistaking that for, you know, as
a threat to the well being of ateam, let's say,
Joanna Plaskonka (14:34):
Oh, I love that question very much. So
maybe I can also start withsharing some of the myths or
misunderstanding related topsychological safety. So I've
heard that psychological safetyis an excuse, right? So whenever
I don't like something or, Oh,it's not easy, okay, it's
(14:55):
challenging, I will say it'sendangering my psychological
safety. Or psychological safetymeans that we should always be
smiling, big smile on our faces,and you know, unicorns, rainbows
all over the sky every singleday, but we know what is the
weather, right? Sometimes wehave beautiful sunny days, and
(15:17):
sometimes it's raining cats anddogs. And psychological safety
means I feel safe to takeinterpersonal risk, which means,
for instance, I'm okay to admitI committed an error. I'm okay
(15:39):
to present differentperspective. I'm okay to
challenge certain idea, still ina kind and respectful way. So in
fact, psychological safety is aninvitation to face uncomfortable
situation and takeaccountability for for that in
(16:03):
psychologically safeenvironment, our colleagues will
not treat this question, ideachallenge as a threat, but as an
opportunity, right? It willnever be easy to hear Hey,
Jonah, but what if we look atyour idea from different
perspective, maybe my first wayof thinking would be, oh no.
(16:27):
They think I'm stupid, and thisis what high psychological
safety should help me realize.
Oh so they want me to polish myidea, and they want to co create
it so that it will be evenbetter. So this is what
psychology, psychological safetyhelps you achieve.
Patricia Kong (16:48):
That's funny.
It's actually reminding me. So acouple of years I published a
facilitation book, and one ofthe drivers was that all this
kind of bad facilitation, andthese icebreakers and all that
stuff. And it's really, it'smaking me think about how you're
talking about psychologicalsafety, because somebody with a
good intent, they had all theselittle fun games, all these
(17:10):
icebreakers and and they do thatsometimes because they say, Oh,
we're trying to build teambonding. We're trying to build
safety. But when they only thinkabout that, it's almost like
they're trying to create anemotional space where people can
always just feel maybeentertained or happy, and people
will mistake that, that there isan environment where they're
(17:32):
catering to a certain emotionthey want to feel, and that's
not necessarily building thepsychological safety. It's very
much what you say, I agree aboutknowing that you can essentially
handle yourself, and that yousee invitation and opportunity,
and that really ties back to anagile mindset and the scrum
values, which you pointed out.
And I think another thing, if Ican just add to what you were
(17:54):
saying, is this notion ofthinking about psychological
safety in a way that helps yoube more effective, not as a
crutch, not as something thatyou can be dependent on, and
just say, Oh no, we're notfeeling safe, because that's
that's actually going to, youknow, decrease collaboration and
communication to to help us bebetter. And I think that's
(18:14):
what's kind of cool. If youthink about the accountabilities
in Scrum, like, hey, we havepurpose, and we can call each
other on that when it's notworking out. So, so what are you
working on next in this topicthat you would want to share
with our listeners, because thishas been quite a topic that is
(18:37):
really interesting, I know toyou, but like every a lot of a
lot of people are talking aboutthis and negotiation and
definitely these type of topics,I think, especially in the
strange times that we're livingin right now. So what should
they expect from you next?
Joanna Plaskonka (18:51):
So definitely, I'm willing to share some
knowledge in that topic when itcomes to leaders, because
leaders have enormous impact onpsychological safety both ways,
actually. So they can help, helpto make it high relatively
quickly, but sometimes evenunconsciously. They can. They
(19:15):
can, unfortunately decrease it,and they may not be aware. Why
is it happening? What'shappening? So I see this topic
of psychological safety throughleaders perspective, different
leaders, so it might be evenexecutive. They can contribute
significantly. So I see thistopic as something that I'm
(19:37):
definitely willing to work on.
And I also have a certain modelin my head about psychological
safety for your own, especiallyif you are independent
consultant, solopreneur. Irealized in last month that
there is a quite interesting i.
(20:00):
Idea in my head, and it'salready helped someone. So I'm
happy to to go into thatdirection too. Maybe I will be
also able to contribute to tothis knowledge about
psychological safety. Oh,
Patricia Kong (20:17):
that sounds quite, quite a tease. Very
interesting. Okay, so we wantedto keep this a little bit
shorter, because there's so muchinformation and it's, it's
really, it's really not fair tounpack the topic in in 20
minutes. But Johanna, where elsecan people get in contact with
you if they want to learn moreabout psychological safety,
(20:41):
leadership and psychologicalsafety, that kind of hits on
culture. But also I like, I likethe extension out to
entrepreneurs and and and peoplelike yourself in your space,
Joanna Plaskonka (20:54):
so you can they can reach out to me via
LinkedIn. They can just check myname. My profile is public. They
can find my profile@scrum.orgbecause I'm a PST and contact me
there. They can also visit mywebsite Johanna plus conca.com
they can book also on mywebsite, a short free call to
(21:19):
just have a have a virtualcoffee with me. They can also
check my YouTube channel, Scrumwith Johanna. So anyway is good
when the outcome is achieved. Sohaving a meaningful conversation
with
Patricia Kong (21:35):
me, Oh, that's great. Lots of ways. I hope
everyone, or some people takeadvantage of that, and even if
they have questions that theywant, you know, don't be shy.
Throw them over to Johanna andmaybe she can even just include
it in our next talks. So thankyou to you. Have a wonderful
day. Thank you to our listeners.
That's it for us today. Thankyou so much. Scrum on Thank you
Joanna Plaskonka (22:01):
very much.
Scrummorg.
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