July 27, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode, Neil sits down with Sydney nightlife legend Penny Clifford. From her early days discovering her identity in the 1970s to running one of Oxford Street’s most iconic clubs, Penny shares raw, funny, and moving stories of her life as a trailblazing trans woman, showgirl, and nightclub manager. It's a deep dive into identity, community, and the rise and fall of DCM – the club that changed the game.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am Neil the
Muscle Commons, and in this episode I speak with Penny Clifford,
a pioneering trans show girl who became a Queen of
Oxford Street.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I was born in nineteen sixty one and then seeing
my first drag show with trans women and I was like,
it was like a light bulb went off for me,
and I was.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Like, that's who I am.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
There are very few men that are happy to say
I like a trans woman, and I didn't want to
be someone's secret lasking the cross.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
You've got a character that plays you.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, okay, apparently can did anyone else.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
With a dramatic well, no, there's no other six foot
two dance. I remember at one point she was like,
I need climb that ladder and pour hot wax on
that lesbian snipples And I was like, okay. It was
written up in the Daily Telegraph or something. My mum
read it and she was like, what is that. You
know Penny was seen at the Madonna thing and I
was like, Lord have mercy.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Penny, thank you for coming on. I appreciate this. I've
been trying to get you on here. Probably over a
year now.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I know, I know I shy away from it, but
you know, I'm here.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I'm grateful for your coming in.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm happy to see your face.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Thank you. It's been a long time, sure.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Has way too many decades.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
All right, let's get this on the way.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So before we get into all our exciting, dizzy grizzy stuff,
let's talk about you growing up, and let's get to
know you first as a person.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Okay, I grew up out at Auburn. I was a
Western suburbs kid. I grew up there. I had a
relatively normal childhood and went to school and went to
high school and just yeah, fluffed around for a little while.
And it was around that time that I started to question,
(01:56):
you know, and we're talking, you know, was early seventies,
early seventies. By then I started questioning my gender and
who I was and all of that kind of thing.
And I think around about, you know, because it wasn't,
you know, transness was I really wasn't a thing like
it is now, you know, And to it was.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
More of the radar back then when they told quite much.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And you know, I mean I was born in nineteen
sixty one, so you know, to learn about transits was
an accident in the library you know where I grew up,
so you know, it was a really I remember being
very confused for a while, and I never felt right
in my body. And then I think around about fourteen
or fifteen, I remember learning some more information about it
(02:42):
and understanding it and then realizing obviously that's what I was.
But I don't even remember the word transnist coming around,
but I remember reading. I remember reading books like Conundrum
by Jen Morris or Second Serve by Renee Richards, the
very famous tennis player back in those days that had
a sex change, and so that made a lot of
(03:04):
sense to me. So I started going out as early
as I could, you know, fifteen or sixteen, catching the
train in and going around Oxford Street, and you know,
it was much easy to get into clubs, and because
I was taller, it was easy for me to get
in and figuring out from there. And then seeing my
first drag show with trans women and I was like,
it was like a light bulb went off for me,
(03:25):
and I was like, that's who I am.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
You know, what about your parents, they like.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
They didn't really understand it, and it was hard for
them at the start, but they obviously knew. I mean, look,
you know, when I was young, I went to the
Debi Graham Dance School in Grand Ball, you know, so
they obviously knew there was a very feminine side to me.
And I would often I remember pulling the curtains off
the curtain rod and wrapping them around and dancing around
(03:52):
the house for mom and dad, and you know, so
they probably were eye rolling. And my two eldest brothers
would always turn my previous name into some kind of
feminine name, and you know, like I grew up like that,
so it was kind of like everyone just put up
with my silliness and.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
How a schooler for that feature.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know, school was something I got through, but I
never it wasn't something where I don't ever remember being
abused or bashed or.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Picked on to more female friends than male.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I went to an old boys high school.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Oh fuck, really that was fun?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And do you know there was another star of lay
girls that went to the same high school as me.
I don't know what was in the world or at
beer On Boys High School.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, all right, So how early did you know, like
besides fourteen and all like that, But did you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Know there was something. See, the problem was, it wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Nowadays people can read about transness at eight or nine
and understand it. There wasn't anything, So it took me
a little bit longer to figure it out. But by
twelve or thirteen, I think everyone just presumed I was
effeminate and gay, and you know, it just took me
a little bit longer to figure out my journey. But
by seventeen, I kind of sixteen and seventeen, and I
(05:05):
really knew that I wanted to be what you want
to do well, that I felt that I was trans
and that this is what I needed to do. It
took me a year or two, and I had to
move out of home, and you know, like to settle
myself because I mean we're talking seventy something, you know,
seventy five, seventy six, and you know, Mum and Dad
(05:25):
were okay but not great and didn't really understand it.
And I felt like I needed to figure myself out
and then present them with a package of where I
looked more presentable. And so during that what you would
call an androgynous period, I suppose, you know, I rang
I would call them but not see them too often.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And then once I.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Started to look a little bit more presentable, then I
started to get to go home and.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
See who did you go and see for this change?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, you do, just go to the doctors and NAT,
you went nervous.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You went nervous rather course, yeah, because as you said,
back in the seventies and eighties, early eighties, it was
like wow, you know, bring that out to what you
wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Like now you could just do it every Yeah, there's.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
There's so much information out there for young trans kids.
But it wasn't until I went to a club called
Capricios on Oxford Street, which is where Stonewall Hotel is now,
and upstairs they had a show and it was called
International Vanities, and it was just all trans women, beautiful
trans women, and I met all of them and they explained,
go on hormones, go and see this doctor.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
They took me under their wing.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I went to the doctor, I got on hormones, and
I started my transwoman journey.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And that's how it happened for me.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know, I knew, but I just needed that catalyst
of meeting a group of beautiful trans women. And some
of those are still my friends today, Those women that
I met are still friends. I don't get to see
them that often. They're a bit older than me, but
you know, they're around and I still look at them
all as superstars. And that show was very legendary on
(06:59):
Oxford Street.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So so when you got to the age, I think
it was because I looked up as well. It was
the seventeen you actually you decided that's when you were
going to kind of get into the showgirls.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, I started experimenting and talent shows and tragedy, and
you know, I look back at some of the things
I did then, and I remember going There was a
club on Oxford Street, I don't know, it would be
Flow's Palace, and they had a drag contest and I
went into that and won. From there, I went down
to Patches, Yes, and Tricksy Lamont, the star of Patches,
(07:31):
gave me a job helping backstage and I would get
to do a song in the show. And I think
that would have been maybe nineteen eighty. I got into
Patches from doing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
That's what I read up. It was nineteen eighty got
in there.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I also was working out at There was a
pub at Balmain, a really early gay pub called the
Balmain town Hall, owned by two friends who I loved,
Dealian called Mom and Dad, David and Brian, and so
a lot of us were working out there three or
four nights a week. And there's a little pub in
Balmain that just was so popular. And so there was
(08:06):
Balmain and there was Patches for me and down O'Donnell,
you know, the very famous lesbian mafia lady, and that
was you know, King of Oxford Street as we like
to call with, you know, Rogia Claude. And I got
into Patches and got into the show and was helping
backstage and doing my song and learning my craft and
(08:26):
being told, you know, how.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
To be a show girl.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And I learned from all the kids in the show
with Trixie and three D and Cindy Pastel and Sarah
Pax and Maggie Burns and Paul and Egrey and all
of those, and slowly, months and months and months, it just.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Kind of seven years. Yeah, sorry, you were there a
very long time.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, And I didn't leave Patches until nineteen eighty five,
so I stayed there for a very long time. And
it was a real I got into the main show
cast from that and became and you know, you were
if you were in the main show cast at Patches,
you were sort of like Hollywood, you know, like you
were the you know, so it from me back on
Oxford strength. Then that became really Hollywood for me, and
(09:10):
I felt like I achieved something.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Did your parents ever come and see you do a show?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Not until not then? No, not to a gay club.
They were a bit because nowadays it would be yeah,
it's okay. But it wasn't till I joined Simona Monique's
Playgirls and Carlotta's show when I left Patches and became
more of a tits and feather kind of showgirl touring
RSL clubs that mum and dad kind of felt like, okay,
(09:34):
let's take the bingo friends and come and see the show,
because to them that was more mainstream or something that
they could a substance they could be proud of, rather
than a little gay club in Oxford.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So when was the first time they actually seen you
being transformed down into a woman?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Oh look, I went home eighty two eighty three. You know,
there was a gap, but they'd seen photos and stuff
and they were great. I've got photos from that first
time I went back home and you know, everything was fine,
and we just settled into our routine and then I
I think they came to see I think Mum came about.
We were at South Sydney Juniors and Mum came to that,
(10:11):
and I think it was nineteen eighty five or eighty six,
So there was a little gap, but I think it
was a good gap because it just came around and
you know, I was a bit more polished and pretty
and I had, you know, a little bit of surgery
by then, and so they could appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Ever been married, No, never, never a long relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I there, Yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Were there were two along the way, but I don't know,
you know, there was one very special one and he
would always, you know, wherever we went, people would always
come over to say hello. And he was Italian and
get really upset and he said, I feel like I'm
mister Clifford and I you know, we'd go home and
there'd be a huge fight about it. I'm like, well,
(10:51):
I can't stop people coming up to say hello, because
if they see me sitting somewhere on Oxford Street, they
want to say high penny, you know what I mean.
And it caused a lot of issues and along the
way there's been one or two and some of them
are still great friends. But no, I've never really I
think I've had more successful relationships with dogs and coffee
(11:12):
and you know, apple pies and custards or something.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Was it difficult you at the start? Was it difficult
for you at the start when you transform yourself into
a woman?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Look, you know, over the years, I had some great
fun times, you know what I would call office romances,
especially in the DCM office. There was some wonderful office
romances with you know, many of the man Power boys,
and you know that was always fueled by them coming
into d CM, and you know, fueled by all kinds
(11:42):
of things, and you know, suddenly I'm having a romance
with one of them. And so I won't say I
didn't have a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, But I
think one of the things about being a trans woman,
and I think it might be less now, but there
are very few men that are happy to say I
like a trans woman publicly, you know what I mean, Like,
(12:02):
that's what I found and I didn't want to be
someone's secret, you know, And there's a lot of men
that would want us that find it appealing, but don't
ever want to come out and say to their friends
or their family, you know, this is my girlfriend and
I love her. And the few relationships I did have,
that's how they treated me.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
And that's what I love the most.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That they introduced me to their family and they introduced
me to you know, their friends, and it was a
public thing, and I didn't want to be a secret
or a fetish.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And I think that's why I've just you know.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
From your alone or yourself phone.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know, the many, many things I've done
of touring with shows and going overseas and running what
I think is three of the better nightclubs on Oxford Street,
like ann Erskineville, you know, like DCM for ten years
and the Imperial Hotel at Erskineville which was the home
of Priscilla and then the midnight Shift. I've been very
(12:56):
lucky in a career as well as being a successful
show girl, that sometimes you can't just have everything. And
I've always looked at it like I've had a great life.
And now I live in Byron Bay and I'm super
happy up there, and I think, well, maybe that's the
one thing that's eluded me is just having a partner,
and it's never really you know. I think when I
was younger, maybe it bothered me, but now I'm like, nah,
(13:19):
I think i'd go the other way.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Let's talk about because you just brought it up and
you've got the hats.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
On too, Let's talk Yeah, DCM's okay, So what made
you go to DCMS.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, Patches that I did the shows that and got
into from working backstage and developing my craft is thirty
three Oxford Street and DCM is thirty three Oxford Street.
So I was already working at Patches for doorn O'Donnell
and working out at the Bow Main Pub and working
down at the Unicorn Pub as a show girl. So
(13:51):
Tim Berry and Brook Beeves came in and they bought
I remember them. They ran the Unicorn Hotels, so I
was working for them there, and then they took over
the Bow Main Pub and I was working for them there,
and then they came in and they were like, maybe
you know the gay John Abrahams who knows and very
sweet men and really loved me, and we got along
very well, and they bought Patches off Dawn and so
(14:15):
for I think that was nineteen ninety, but DCM didn't
officially open till July nineteen ninety one. But in that
period there was, like I suppose, a transition, just like
being transgender, of you know, moving because Patches had a
lighter dance floor like Saturday Night Fever on the other
side of the room, and then they moved that into
the middle where DCM was, and they moved bars around,
(14:38):
and they changed a lot of things. And that period
from nineteen ninety when they brought it to nineteen ninety
one was a slow process, yeah, of transforming the club
and then coming up with the name. And then suddenly,
you know, Tim had gone to a New Zealand. So
during that time I'd started, I think i'd started in
the changeover two days a week in the office, and
(15:01):
I remember there was no computers back then. Even the
deliveries were handed.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
In a book, you know, like the unvogular.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Like hand written in this book.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Everything was so old fashioned and there was no such
thing as the worldwide where I don't think it was
super interesting. And so Tim went to New Zealand and
there was a club in New Zealand called DTMs Don't
Tell Mama, and it was Don't tell Mama that I'm gay.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
So he came back from New Zealand with that and
was toying around with it. And there were two drag
queens at the time, and they fought over who came
up with the real idea. There was when s Mungle
Bitch and Talula Bright and when Essa's still around and
Ta Lula's passed away sadly, but she was our door
bitch at DC for a very long time. And they
(15:49):
came up toying with Tim over a champagne or something
to try and have that same kind of initial thing going.
And DCM came up and that was don't cry Mama
rather than don't tell Mama.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And you know, I mean I've.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Seen in the DCM there is like three DCM online groups.
One I run and then one that Georgie J runs,
and there's a whole pile of things of arguments. It's
called don't come Monday, you know, which as it went
from a gay club because over the ten years I
was at d CM, it was very gay at the start,
and around ninety four to ninety five, of course everyone
(16:24):
came in because it became the hottest night club and
so that's when I think, don't come Monday. Had that happened,
But until then it was DCM and it stood for
don't crime Mama, I don't cry, mamma.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I'm gay and I'm having a great time at a club.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And it officially opened in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was the setup was exactly like DCMS like we like,
we like as it is now.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, yes, Originally the setup was like because.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
The lighter dance floor where the rear bar was in
the main dance room. That's where the lighter dance floor
was at Patricks and I'm talking like full on Saturday
night fever. Glass lighter dance floor raised different colors, big
huge speaker's fog machine that would spew oil over the
glass dance floor. So sometimes you'd see people dancing and
(17:10):
slipping over in the oil of the fog or a
show girl falling over. I saw lots of that. And
then there were just rows of like RSL club tables
and chairs that would sit because at Patches there was
a show cast every night was you know, a huge
show that was put on, and then little bars everywhere.
They really moved that around the front bar stayed pretty
much the same and the entrance stayed pretty much the same.
(17:32):
I mean they sure they slept a coat of paint
on it and put on some funny, you know, bead ceilings,
but the front bar and the entrance pretty much dates.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
What do you think made that club so so good?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Especially it was the first super club on Oxford Street.
There wasn't another superclub. There was the midnight shift, but
at that time, early on the midnight shift wouldn't allow
women in. The first woman that was ever allowed into
the midnight shift was Marsha Heines. And I remember reading
about it in the paper because it was a men's
gay club and it was very underground and Flow's Palace
(18:09):
was like more of an Asian bar then, and there
wasn't there wasn't any arc and there wasn't there was
very few clubs. People would go to Capri Sios to
see a show, which was where Stonewall is, and then
they would you know, I remember most people would go
to Caprice shows and then you know, if you're Asian
or Asian lover, you'd stop at Flow's Palace on the
way down because don't forget, it was unsafe to walk
(18:30):
streets then, and it was kind of illegal to still be,
you know, nearly wearing women's clothing a little bit, and
so it was all very underground still and then everyone
would end up at Patches, all go up to lay
Girls to see Carlotta in La Cross. So that was
you know, people went there. And so DCM became the
first super club. And even though we aimed at the
(18:52):
gay people, you know, once people hear about a club,
slowly it started. Other people would come in, but they
were allies what we now use the word allies, you know,
the straight people that love gay people. And you know,
there was any of the Tongue and SAMs in the
early days coming in and we needed, you know, we
needed to install metal detectors to keep you know, that
(19:12):
was ninety six ninety seven that the metal detectors came
in and I'd sit on Tongue and Sam's lap having
a chat to him, not really realizing the background of that,
you know. And so early days it was very gay
the first few years, and then mixed, and I think
that mixture people felt safe and happy, and so then
(19:32):
they would tell their straight prints. You got to come
and see these drag shows, and the gays are fabulous
and just slowly over time, it just changed in the.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I remember when I was rooming the door at d
CMS and I knew the gay community was so anti DCMS.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
When I was there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I remember because it had changed from very much. Because
I've got to say when John bought it from Tim
and Brook in two thousand, I went back a couple
of times and ran a couple of DCMI parties. Margaret
and David Freeman would call me up and say could
you come back? And do you know, I think we
did the eighteenth year of it, and there was another
(20:09):
one that I did and put on, But by then
it had changed, you know, it had really become there
was no gaze going and it became a bit rough.
And I think that started not because of John. It
started happening, like I said, at ninety seven when we
had to put in metal detectors.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know, there was the girl that.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Got shot famous got shot in the boo at the
bar when we're all standing there because two security men,
one of them had a gun and they were just
mucking around at the bar and the gun went off
and she's standing there with brand new perky surgical tits
and the gun went straight through there and into the wall,
and it was a cop killer bullet, you know, one
of those bullets that's straight through and ground through the wall.
(20:51):
And later on when the police came, they said, that's
lucky that bullet didn't even keep straight through that wall
and across the dance floor. So, you know, there were
all those kind of things that slowly changed. I remember
when that because that was a TV the girl got
shot in the bullet at DC.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
My mum rang me and was like, dada that.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And you know that was the last you know, because
I was already leaning towards Okay, I've been here a
long time, but you know I stayed till you know,
six months before it got sold. But yeah, there was
a lot of things that made it change over.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
But did that bring problems to the street because X
Street's always been known as the game lesbian.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, it did, And so that's when the hate for
d CN came in. Things like the girl got shot
at the bar, and you know, we put in metal
detectors and so we would notice because gay nights were
Thursday night was what we'd call the blue Card night,
and Saturday was sweat night. And Sunday was the tea
dance where it would start early and you would come
(21:46):
in for the tea dance and see the drag show
and all those nights, some of the more gay nights.
As DC progressed through ninety seven and ninety eight, seemed
to wean off a little bit, and you know, we
dropped some of the shows because we could see that
the crowd was changed.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Was that when like when John came in and his
promotion just kind of wind you out and pushed you
out a bit because they were a straight club.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
When he bought it. Yeah, it definitely, but by then
I'd left. None of the management stuff stayed with John. Okay,
we all left. Sue went up to the shift him
bought the midnight shift by then, and I went back
to being a show girl for a while in Carlotta
Show and just flopping about trying to figure out who
I was because after ten years running DCM and and
(22:30):
the ego that came with that, because it was the
number one night club, you believe your own publicity. It
took me a couple of years of just going, wow,
I'm not so special anymore. I don't I don't have
thirty people calling me every hour on the hour to
get into the number one club in Sydney. So yeah,
I wallowed a little bit after DCM, but you know,
found my way back.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
And what about.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
When you when you run it was it was it
still corrupt like on the doors like as it got
was it very well?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Do you mean by well?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know when you've got you had the times when
you have in the cross and you had the corruption
of the police and all like that, comments to the
doors to make sure who's in there or to run
the doors.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Or that didn't start didn't start later on, so early
on we were left alone. Like honestly, you could get
away with so much at DCM, like I remember, just
people were just it was like Studio fifty four. You know,
our birthday parties were legendary and you know you just
turn away if someone was racking up on a table
and let them go because that's what we.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Do you think that was do you think that was?
It was left alone because back then when you had it.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Because it was more gay, yes, correct, and there were
none of the RSA laws and what they were, but
you know, no one paid attention to them, and you
know there was no one being bashed around Oxford Street
early on, unless it was a gay bashing, and that
then we were a safety club. As we went through
the years again around ninety seven and you know, metal
detectors come in and the gays were leaving us a
(23:54):
little bit and moving to you know, I think ARC
opened up around this time. I'm not sure what year
ARC opened, but I remember going to the opening and thinking, Okay,
this is really going to affect our up. And it
did a little bit. We lost a lot of gays.
But but that's when the club. I think John bought
it in two thousands, so that's when it really changed.
But I'd already left by then, but I had gone back,
(24:16):
like I said, and did a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
I think when yeah, yeah, around that time.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That time, well, because I've never experienced that. I think
I went once in two thousand or maybe ninety eight
DCMS before I was doing anything. I'm on the doors,
But do you think that was the best era for
DCMS when you had it?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Look, you know, that's a conversation and I saw I'm
sure you see it in all the DCM groups and
you know, even the group I run as specifically what
we call the og group. It's from nineteen ninety to
two thousand and and you know, someone comes in there
and says something nice about John Ibraham. He gets blocked,
you know, not really, but he should because that's that era,
(24:54):
you know. And then I see other groups that are
the Sunset Brothers and u N Sydney, which is United
Nations John Ibraham's United Nations. And yes, I'm gonna eye
roll there because that was just a wang. And sorry, John,
You're very sweet, but what a wang. And you know
(25:15):
it's just funny, you know. And so it definitely it changed.
And you know d c M from two thousand John's
d CM. People argue all the time, what's better, but
you see it, and there's so the groups are so
passionate about it.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I get all the time because when I do the
walks and talk about d CMS.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, and I mean I've even come in. I mean, like, no,
our group was better. It's hard not to say something.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Because I look at it from when I looked of
the door and two thousand and two to close. That
was massive. You're back back then. But as I said,
I never seen what happened when you had it, you
know what I mean. But that's why I've just got wow.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I mean, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
You can watch season two of Last King of the
Cross to see the transition, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Okay, all right, dramatic license in there.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Now you're bringing up this. Now this is I wasn't
gonna bring this up yet. Okay, but now jump around.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I'm waiting to it off.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Now, Lasking of the Cross. You've got a character that
plays you. Yeah, okay, apparently, well apparently.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
With anyone else with a dramatic Well, no, there's no
other six foot two that ever ever worked at Patches
to d C days, So yes, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So how how much of that is true? On your
behalf of what you've seen of your character?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
There were quite a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I mean, but Tim and Brook weren't Indian, I think
in the in the show they're Indian, So you know,
there was that which cracked me out. But there were
certain things of John coming to the club as a
kid and and everyone thinking it was just hot stuff,
and you know, all of us going sexy man, and
you know that's what our show girls were like back then, and.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
There was a lot of it.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Did you try?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
No, I don't remember. Look, I would sure.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
And if I don't remember, see that's I like short
really man.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, the.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Two relationships I've had, I've always been with short ethnic guys.
You know, give me a Lebanese or an Italian and
I'm happy. But no, wonder I've never kept one. Yeah,
but I don't remember. But look, everyone thought he was
fabulous and he would hang around and stuff. But a
lot of there was definitely the early parts in the
(27:29):
first few episodes of Me and Stuff very close. You know,
there's an episode where my character kills herself and John
saves her. I don't remember that. I think that might
be a dramatic license in there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It wasn't me. But you know, it is a TV
show too, so I mean, you're not in it.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
You should be in it.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Where's David and Margaret well right hand people, and they're
just not in the show. So obviously John's version of
it is either clouded by substance or by ego.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Who And that's just from me. Sorry. I know you
love him.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I love him too, but you know, and I see
him because I live in Byron Bay. I see him
occasionally come into Byron Bay and we say hello.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
At a distance, like, hey, you.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Going when you have DCMS?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
What clients hell would come into DCMS for you, like
you're saying, because it was a well known.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Super cool, A lot of a lot of the show
girls would come in because we had a rule. You know,
show girls got in for free, drag queens got in
for free. And you know we had different types of
memberships as well. You know, Thursday Night was a gay membership.
It was a blue card. If you were lucky to
get one of those, you'd have to apply. You'd get
in for free. And Saturday Night was a sweat membership
that people wanted and they had to I think the
(28:49):
sweat one was one hundred dollars, which was a lot
of money back then, but that got you you could
Q jump and you could get in for free and
bring one another with you. I'm sure one of the
managers will message me when they see this and go, Nah,
you're wrong. I obviously was drinking way too much back then.
That's what I remember about the sweat membership. And then
(29:11):
there was an industry membership that you couldn't buy and
you would be given which was a barter system for
US managers to give to VIPs and that industry card
would get two or three people in for free and
you would be treated a little better every night. And
then there was a gold card, and there were I
think in general there was probably a gold card that
(29:33):
just got your free drinks and any amount of people
through the door. And I think there was only ever
less than fifty gold cards ever.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Given out during the entire range. They were special how
many could hold when you are, oh, you're really pushing
me there, but I think it was I think at
the time it was like five hundred.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
How many would you get in?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Like like what we used to say the same for us,
like it was like I think we had a license
for three hundred and forty three sixty something like that,
but there was always like twelve hundred in there.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Like yeah, it was crampy.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Peeps more especially, and we would do hearty long weekends,
like even though we had a twenty four hour license
back then before all the apartments were built out of DC,
and we would like on a good long weekend like
an October long weekend or an Easter Sunday weekend, we
would open on a Friday at ten and not shut
until Monday morning.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Like we would just go all the way through.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
We would be twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So as managers, we would all go home, get some sleep,
and go back the next day to do the next shift.
And the cleaners would come through while people are still dancing. Wow,
you know, and go all day. They were crazy days.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Who were some of the famous people that have gone
through that door that you've seen?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Oh god, so many names. I'm in the minogues.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Do any of them misbehave?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
No, they didn't, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And even down to real housewives sitting in. Melissa cout
she was a regular Marsha heines. You know. A couple
of times with Melissa, I drag her into the office,
Go okay, you make up some mess, let me fix
that for you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Oh so you only went there for some effection makeup
in the office. Yeah. When I used to go.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
To the office, it wasn't well.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
The office was used for many many things, mixing up maker,
heating up things in the microwave. I had a few
office romances with some of the manpower boys in there, well,
I must say, And yeah, the office was the playground,
(31:29):
the playground for all of us. But in general, you know,
people would just sit up there like the VIPs like,
you know, it was nothing to open the office door
to go and do something work wise and see Marsha
heines having a chat and looking at all the security
wall because we had security cameras. And then there'd be
a buzzer downstairs, more champagne for Marsha and up it
ad come or or whoever it was. I remember, you know,
(31:51):
some of the biggest stars, like the Pet Shop Boys
came in and they hired the club for the an
album launch and they walked in downstairs and we greeted
them and they didn't want to know about the event
downstairs for the launched. They said, is there's somewhere private
we can go? And we took them upstairs to the office.
And the office was really basic back then. I know
(32:12):
that you know the un and John had put lounges in.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
There was none of that.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
We had office chairs and tables and it was quite
sparse and fluo lights and you know, it wasn't glamorous,
but everyone loved it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
It wasn't the place to go and have a chat.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, and so the Pet Shop boys came up there
with me and you know, they stayed for a long time,
and you know, their management would come up and go,
you really need to come down and do some photos
with the VIPs in the front bar because that was
secluded off for their album launch.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
And they were like in a minute. They were busy
doing things with the microwave. They used the microwave a lot.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But the funniest thing I remember from the Pet Shop
boys because of the fluo lights, is that I kept
looking at them going, they're so fucking old, like they
were old, old man, and you know we're talking in
the nineties. Go figure. I was so shocked at how
old they looked. And so the week after we installed
dimmers in the office because I was like that we
(33:14):
kind of have those Feroh lights if we all looked
that over. So we had nice dimmer lights put in
to soften when VIPs came in, and you know things
like that.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
So dcms like when I'd say, anyone brings.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Up Decease and there was a lot more stars. So look,
Mary Kiani, the high energy singer from Scotland, came over
and became part of our family, and she was a
DCM family and there was we did the launch of
the Romeo and Juliets soundtrack. I can't remember her name
I've gone blank now, but she came in and she
was part of that, and there was just always Madonna
came in at some point in Madonna, she was in town.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
She came a disease.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, and this is early, and she came in and
she had a She popped in for a second because
it was like phone calls and popped in, stayed for
five minutes, fled, and then she had a birthday because
she was on tour with the Girly Tour. So whatever,
it'll be the year the Girly Tour hit Sydney, so
I think could have been ninety eight something like that.
And she had a party down at you know, under
(34:14):
the Harbor Bridge. What's that restaurant that used to be
down there where the Harbor viewers, like Pier.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
One or something like that.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
She had a birthday party down for her brother who
she no longer talks to, Christopher, and it was just drag,
queens galore, And we all went to the party and
we were sitting with her and there was a up high.
She had lesbians on stocks, and you know, it was
very bizarre, and you know, people pouring hot wax on
lesbian snipples and people whipping gay boys on these you know,
(34:44):
the things that turn around like that and whipping them
and she just was like this S and M party
for a brother.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
It was very bizarre.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
And I remember at one point she was like, ID
to climb that ladder and pour hot wax on that
lesbian snipples And I was.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Like, okay.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I was like, all, let's do this. And you know
the next day I got up and did it. You know,
there was a pause, and you know it was all.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Fun, and that's the bravado of you know, being a
DCM manager. We would do crazy things like that. And
so it was written up in the Daily I think
it was a Daily Telegraph or something. My mum read
it and she was like, what is that. You know,
Penny was seen at the Madonna thing, you know, pouring.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Hot wax, you know on it.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
There was a whole rider, not just about me, but
the whole thing and Penny one of the managers at DCM,
and I was like, Lord, have mercy. Those are the
kind of weird things. I wish I had that clip.
I wish I had that little Daily Telegraph clip because
couldn't I frame that? That's like acclaim to fame. So
there's so many of those little things over the years.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You know, as I said before, like I think DCMS
was it the first club we you should go in
there and all members of their tops off, like is that?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
It was, yeah, And it wasn't just gay man, it
was straight man like. It was a ride of passage
for you know, a straight man to come in in
his leather pants and take his shirt off and get
up on that podium and sweat and go off, and
that's that's.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
There's no rules, really no.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And it was the uniform you know, every gay man
and every straight man that came in there. And as
we as the years progressed, it was always more straight
man leather pants. And you know they'd get up to
the front step and you know, already chewing and echy
jaw and off eki off they'd go. And they'd be
they'd been somewhere and they'd come up and whoever the
door bitch was or something, they'd stand there with their
(36:30):
dollars would be folded up and it'd take them five
minutes to unfold the dollars. And you know, we were
really tough. You know, if you can't have your money ready,
go back downstairs. And line up again, you know, like
there was fashion police. It was all kinds. Oh yeah,
we had people would walk along. I remember to LULAA. Bright,
she was one of about favorite drags at the door.
(36:51):
She would walk down and she goes, you know, they'd
get up the stairs past security and she'd go, you're
not coming in with those shoes. I don't care if
you've got past security, go you're not coming in tonight.
Your shoes are ugly.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
So I wasn't the only one who didn't know.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And then no, we started the fashion police early, like
at some point, you know, there were there were even
shifts like I would just be downstairs and I would
just walk along because the lineup would go all the
way up the end, and I just walk along and go, No,
you're not coming in tonight. Sorry that outfit. No, not
with that hair.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, like we were. You can't do that now,
but you know that's what we did.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Were you start to leave DC's.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Look at the time when I left, just I think
it was six or seven months before it got sold.
I think it got to the point where it was
healthier for me to leave because it really had become like,
you know, we were living in a bubble as the
managers of the club.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
No, I never had a chat with him about that.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Oh wow, so no, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
No, I never had a chat with him about so
he just came in and brought his new people, know
these new people in you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Wow, I didn't know that. I thought you actually mst
have got the officer to stay.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
No, no, no, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
So then calling you back to come back and run
the DCM parties was very nice, you know, it was
lovely and I and you know, David and Margaret and
I got along and you know, John would come in
and I would run the I did two or three
what I classified as you in Sydney, and you.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Know, because I think we started to do some gay
and lesbian nights on Sunday nights too. Yeah, but they
didn't actually work because I think it got to the
point there where the Gay and Lesbian's or Oxtra Street
were two anti dcms.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
It just yes, no, they just never came back because
there was just too much. It was, you know, they
didn't feel comfortable inside because it had gotten it had
gone from a few scrapes when we were owning it
to much more when John and had become very tessaone Field,
I suppose it's the word.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Do you think it? Like, like credibly if I'm wrong?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Ox Street, No for for what it is, Okay, So
when a straight people come into your clubs, do you
just get a bit like shitty with them coming in?
Because look they talk over DCMS. Okay it was.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
See, I personally didn't. I loved that the club.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I was always proud that our club, our version of DCM,
was really happy and mixed. And I was always proud
that all kinds of people could come to the club
because to me, that's what all clubs should be.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
But I feel like it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
But then it got really bad.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Ye like look at Ark now arcs Now Laura, But
the same thing happened at Ark. I saw that that
was specifically a gay club, and then slowly.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
You let them in, Yeah, and it becomes a straight club.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
And now I see the hate for you know, I
live in Barrons, so I've been I've lived there eight
nine years now, so I follow things what's going on.
But you know, I see a lot of hate towards
Noir is it? You know? I am now and I
see a lot of hate because a lot of from
the gay community because they so close to Stonewalls. So
(39:50):
two clubs so close together with two different demographics and
people is causing some issues between that.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Well, that's when DCMS moved up to Havana and the
same thing happened when stone Wall didn't.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Like it Bibloss and you know, at some point the
gays were then saying DCM has now turned Oxford Street straight,
because then we had bib Loss and then we had DCM,
and you know, and then ARC started going straight, and
you know, it became a different Oxford Street From me, it's.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
A little bit more gay now. But now, I mean,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I haven't been out on Oxford Street for a while,
but with Noir there now and Aura has taken over,
I don't know, has it changed much?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Have you been there?
Speaker 4 (40:33):
You go out, I don't go out, but I've seen
the streets and.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
You get invited to the opening night of Aura. I
got invited Dave Old, who owns it. It was one
of the main manager of DCM back in my DCM days.
He's a lovely, lovely man. And you know, I was
in Byron and I had a rough week and I
was like, I can't come down, But I got invited still,
so it was nice to still be invited by him,
(40:57):
and I would like to go and see the club
and it looks beautiful, and I hope that people mix
in there a bit because so I know that Dave's
so gay friendly and such an ally and has always
been a wonderful supporter of me.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
But he can be gay friendly, but it's their clients.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
It's the crowd that come, and he can't control that
black at Noir. So it's not always his fault, and
it wasn't always our fault at the end of DCM either,
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So when you left DCMS, where did you go?
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I fluffed around, Like I said, I fluffed around for
a little while. You know, it was a real like
I suppose, coming off drugs nearly to leave a venue
where you are so high profile and so well loved
to nothing for a minute. But I was lucky because
I still had my showgirl. Because all through DCM, I
(41:46):
still kept you know, I was hosting at it an
extreme nightclub at Parramatta, which was a huge strip club
at the time, and Fridays and Saturdays I would host
out there and I love that, and I was still
keeping up show Girls, so I went back into Carlotta
was touring again, so I joined that.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I ended up managing show for a little while.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I worked for a music company for a while and
that was God. I did that from JRB Music and
we released Mary Mary Keianni album I became friends with
from DCM and a Melissa Kutz album. I did that
for a couple of years, and yeah, I stayed around there,
and then I ended up a friend was having a
(42:27):
rough time, and I moved to the Gold Coast for
a minute and then came back and started as one
of the managers at the Imperial Hotel in Erskineville.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
How was that?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
That was fantastic? It was nice to be back in
hospitality again. It was nice to be back running a
gay club that hadn't been.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
What year was that that you came back to time?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Do you think do you think the crowd had changed
when when you come back? Do you think it was
a lot different?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yeah? The stray here was out of decline from a
little bit, and so we brought it back up and
now it's a wonderful venue.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
But it's mixed again, you know. So I got a
lot of hate too.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
It's like wherever Penny goes, a mixed club happened. So
I stayed there for a few years, but was very
happy to be back in hospitality. And from there I
went to By this stage, Tim had left the midnight
shift and the owners were running it, and after the
Imperial they asked me to go to the shift and
I ran that for a few years, and then finally
(43:22):
at an older ladies age, I moved to Byron Bay.
Speaker 4 (43:25):
So are you officially retired from the life for what?
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yes, from nightlife?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, I still work, but I worked for the Department
of Education now, so I will what a what a
change in job. But I wouldn't I love it and
wouldn't change.
Speaker 4 (43:39):
I think, what's your best memories?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Like, out of all of it, what what what sticks
out the most in your head about Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Just the family, the family at DC and what I
like to call the family, the people that would come
in we were even though it was like a huge
family of a thousand people. I mean, you know, there
was very many computers back then. So I remember every
month we would do a four printed newsletter and sit
there and fold them and put them in envelopes and
send that out to our database to promote next month's events,
(44:09):
and we would advertise in three D world. It was
print media, so there was no social media. So those
kind of things and the rapport of just being with
the managers of DCM and we became a family and
we were you know, and I'm still friends with most
of them today.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
You know, Well, when you had DMS, do you think
it was what was it? Do you think it was
the venue, the DJ's, the crowd, what was it that
brought them to DCS when you had it?
Speaker 3 (44:34):
I think people. I think the gays came because it
was a changeover from Patches and they stayed with us.
The drag shows kept them and a safe place for
them to come. The straight people when they started coming
in were all they didn't know the word allies back then,
but were supportive and friendly and wanted to be included
in it, and somehow stumbled in slowly in it and
it infiltrated slowly. I think people loved the drag shows.
(44:58):
I think they loved the girls loved going to a
place where boys wouldn't always harass them for sex because
there was more gay people there, and you know, that's
how it normally happens, you know, like a gay guy
will bring a straight girlfriend and well.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
That's what I was like, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
So that's how it changes. And then the straight girlfriend
will invite three other girlfriends and then their boyfriends, and
then the boyfriends realize hey, this is a who and
then slowly over time it changes, and so yeah, I
think that's how it's happened. I mean, I have so
many great memories, the birthday parties, that Good Friday Harbor
(45:34):
Cruisers DCM's Good Friday Harbor Cruse with legendary for ten years.
We would hire a boat because no club could be
open Good Friday back then, and we would invite our
core VIP members and the staff and we would get
on the boat and go out. I mean, look, I
don't There were a couple of cruises where, you know,
I'd walk on the boat, get a scotch and go
(45:55):
downstairs to the toilet and I would be chatting down
in the toilet of the boat, and then someone would
come down and go the cruise is finished, and I'm
still in the toilet talking and I'm like, it can't be.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's a six hour cruise and they're like down there for.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Six hours and I'm sitting up on the little lens
chatting to people like holding court. You know. Those are
the funny times where I'm like, oh, I just missed
a whole cruise.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
How did that?
Speaker 3 (46:28):
You know? And then we'd go and all go to DCM,
but it wasn't open, so we would just go in
and have a few quiet staffy drinks.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
That turned into all kinds of crazies.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I think I like the family aspect of it too,
Like you know now, I even at the reunion parties
that kind of started from John and Margaret and David
inviting me back to start long We've now started doing
them at the Imperial and I started running the Imperial.
The first one, I think the major one we did
after that was twenty thirteen and they were jam packed.
People flew in for everywhere for that, and you would
(47:01):
people would come up and go just my wife and
I met her at DCM. And now the last one
we did was last Marti Gras at the original d CM,
and people are coming up, going, this is my daughter
and I get to dance on a podium with us
because I met her at your club. And then the
daughter's like, oh look, and I heard mom and Dad
(47:22):
had sex in the phone party, you know, because they
were people. The phone parties were huge where we'd fill
up the dance floor from foam, like turn it into
a pool and fill it up and everyone would get
in and dance, and apparently there was sex under the foam,
and we'd had a few complaints underneath. I was talking
to Ben Morris, the lighting manager who became one of
the full managers at DCM, the other day and do
(47:44):
you remember what was the name of the record store,
Fish Records, was downstairs and the foam would leak and
run in and there was thousands of CDs ruined from
the phone running through the floorboards, and you know, things
like that, I mean the great things too. Tim and
Brook were even Ben reminded me that, you know, when
we needed we were the first club in the Southern
(48:06):
Hemisphere to have a lighting rig that moved on motors.
You know, it was unheard of back then, but Tim
and Brooke would want to get those kind of things in,
you know, and new lighting desks that could be at
the time were high tech and fifteen thousand dollars worth.
And it was definitely the DJs too. There seemed to
be a real change from just the essence of the
club to the drags to then the DJs became the start.
(48:29):
Originally it was the show good, but the DJs definitely
became the name then and people would go for them,
go for them, and it's still now. Look you know
some of the DJs now, you know, iconic and legendary
and any.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Regrets, No, no regrets at all.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
No, I don't often you change, but what happened like
going from your life to where you've worked, what you've done,
happy with?
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Oh, look, you know I'd always say I wish I
hadn't bought that car, or I wish and hadn't dated
that man. Or I mean I'm a bit of a
teetotal and now and sometimes I think I wish I
had not drink as much maybe back then, but it
was the lifestyle and you know, nothing huge, No, No,
I think I think as a trans woman that was
(49:18):
a showgirl, d CM was a perfect you know, I
went to TAFE. Well, I did a promotions a marketing
course at TAFE while I was at d CM and
sharpened my skills. I just wasn't relying on going from
a showgirl and writing deliveries in a book and learning
a computer system because it was in the house. I
went and studied and it helped me to better myself.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So I think in general, no, well, before we go,
describe yourself in one word for me, Penny.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
In one word, Wow, that's difficult. A few words, well,
give me two works.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
It depends on I'm oil. I can be difficult, but
I can be lovable.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Okay. Before yeah, I'll ask you another question. Where did
you get the name Penny Clifford? Where'd you get that from?
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Back in the day, Well, Clifford was my family name,
and drags and show girls had weird names.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Back in the day.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
There was Tricksy low Mount and trees are green like
trees are green, but Teresa Green Sarah Pax, which was
a medication that everyone took. And so when I first
started my first talent show, I was obsessed with the
living Newton John. So I didn't even my first drag
name was Olivia Neutron Bomb because all I would, and
(50:37):
you know, I was tragic back then. Let me do
blond Wig, blue eyes, shadow you. I've got a photo
of it, and I laugh at it now, but and
I would and at Balmaintown Hall Hotel. I would just
do you know Alvy Newton John Songs and think I
was fabulous. It was very funny. And I met Tricksy
and she said that's a stupid name. You can't have that.
(50:57):
And everyone had weird names, and so she went, I
think you should have Penny Trait and I was like okay,
and she would introduce me is miss Penetrate and then
if she was drunk, you know, Tricksy on a microphone
to go and here's miss Pennytrate.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
My bowly area coming after you. I always remember that thinking,
oh God, what are we going to know? But Pete.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
But during that was at the early started patches, so
people just knew me as Penny, and suddenly people were
calling me Penny and and I was like, okay, well
that name stuck.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
I mean obviously I dropped the trade.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, and so it just became a natural progression to
add a family name with it. When I changed my
name by deep Hole in nineteen eighty one or something,
it became Penny Clifford.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And it's still wow, man, still with me. Maybe I
should have been Amanda. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
I like Penny.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I like it's worked for me all these years.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Well, thank you Penny for coming on.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Thank you Neil. It's been lovely chatting love this.
Speaker 4 (52:00):
It's been worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Well, it's lovely to see your face and guns and
all of that so I can take you back to
twenty years ago and flirt with you.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
All over again.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Thanks paid, Thanks now,
Appoche production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am Neil the
Muscle Commons, and in this episode I speak with Penny Clifford,
a pioneering trans show girl who became a Queen of
Oxford Street.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I was born in nineteen sixty one and then seeing
my first drag show with trans women and I was like,
it was like a light bulb went off for me,
and I was.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Like, that's who I am.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
There are very few men that are happy to say
I like a trans woman, and I didn't want to
be someone's secret lasking the cross.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
You've got a character that plays you.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, okay, apparently can did anyone else.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
With a dramatic well, no, there's no other six foot
two dance. I remember at one point she was like,
I need climb that ladder and pour hot wax on
that lesbian snipples And I was like, okay. It was
written up in the Daily Telegraph or something. My mum
read it and she was like, what is that. You
know Penny was seen at the Madonna thing and I
was like, Lord have mercy.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Penny, thank you for coming on. I appreciate this. I've
been trying to get you on here. Probably over a
year now.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I know, I know I shy away from it, but
you know, I'm here.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I'm grateful for your coming in.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm happy to see your face.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Thank you. It's been a long time, sure.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Has way too many decades.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
All right, let's get this on the way.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So before we get into all our exciting, dizzy grizzy stuff,
let's talk about you growing up, and let's get to
know you first as a person.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Okay, I grew up out at Auburn. I was a
Western suburbs kid. I grew up there. I had a
relatively normal childhood and went to school and went to
high school and just yeah, fluffed around for a little while.
And it was around that time that I started to question,
(01:56):
you know, and we're talking, you know, was early seventies,
early seventies. By then I started questioning my gender and
who I was and all of that kind of thing.
And I think around about, you know, because it wasn't,
you know, transness was I really wasn't a thing like
it is now, you know, And to it was.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
More of the radar back then when they told quite much.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And you know, I mean I was born in nineteen
sixty one, so you know, to learn about transits was
an accident in the library you know where I grew up,
so you know, it was a really I remember being
very confused for a while, and I never felt right
in my body. And then I think around about fourteen
or fifteen, I remember learning some more information about it
(02:42):
and understanding it and then realizing obviously that's what I was.
But I don't even remember the word transnist coming around,
but I remember reading. I remember reading books like Conundrum
by Jen Morris or Second Serve by Renee Richards, the
very famous tennis player back in those days that had
a sex change, and so that made a lot of
(03:04):
sense to me. So I started going out as early
as I could, you know, fifteen or sixteen, catching the
train in and going around Oxford Street, and you know,
it was much easy to get into clubs, and because
I was taller, it was easy for me to get
in and figuring out from there. And then seeing my
first drag show with trans women and I was like,
it was like a light bulb went off for me,
(03:25):
and I was like, that's who I am.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
You know, what about your parents, they like.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
They didn't really understand it, and it was hard for
them at the start, but they obviously knew. I mean, look,
you know, when I was young, I went to the
Debi Graham Dance School in Grand Ball, you know, so
they obviously knew there was a very feminine side to me.
And I would often I remember pulling the curtains off
the curtain rod and wrapping them around and dancing around
(03:52):
the house for mom and dad, and you know, so
they probably were eye rolling. And my two eldest brothers
would always turn my previous name into some kind of
feminine name, and you know, like I grew up like that,
so it was kind of like everyone just put up
with my silliness and.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
How a schooler for that feature.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know, school was something I got through, but I
never it wasn't something where I don't ever remember being
abused or bashed or.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Picked on to more female friends than male.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I went to an old boys high school.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Oh fuck, really that was fun?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And do you know there was another star of lay
girls that went to the same high school as me.
I don't know what was in the world or at
beer On Boys High School.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, all right, So how early did you know, like
besides fourteen and all like that, But did you.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Know there was something. See, the problem was, it wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Nowadays people can read about transness at eight or nine
and understand it. There wasn't anything, So it took me
a little bit longer to figure it out. But by
twelve or thirteen, I think everyone just presumed I was
effeminate and gay, and you know, it just took me
a little bit longer to figure out my journey. But
by seventeen, I kind of sixteen and seventeen, and I
(05:05):
really knew that I wanted to be what you want
to do well, that I felt that I was trans
and that this is what I needed to do. It
took me a year or two, and I had to
move out of home, and you know, like to settle
myself because I mean we're talking seventy something, you know,
seventy five, seventy six, and you know, Mum and Dad
(05:25):
were okay but not great and didn't really understand it.
And I felt like I needed to figure myself out
and then present them with a package of where I
looked more presentable. And so during that what you would
call an androgynous period, I suppose, you know, I rang
I would call them but not see them too often.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And then once I.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Started to look a little bit more presentable, then I
started to get to go home and.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
See who did you go and see for this change?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, you do, just go to the doctors and NAT,
you went nervous.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You went nervous rather course, yeah, because as you said,
back in the seventies and eighties, early eighties, it was
like wow, you know, bring that out to what you
wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Like now you could just do it every Yeah, there's.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
There's so much information out there for young trans kids.
But it wasn't until I went to a club called
Capricios on Oxford Street, which is where Stonewall Hotel is now,
and upstairs they had a show and it was called
International Vanities, and it was just all trans women, beautiful
trans women, and I met all of them and they explained,
go on hormones, go and see this doctor.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
They took me under their wing.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I went to the doctor, I got on hormones, and
I started my transwoman journey.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And that's how it happened for me.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know, I knew, but I just needed that catalyst
of meeting a group of beautiful trans women. And some
of those are still my friends today, Those women that
I met are still friends. I don't get to see
them that often. They're a bit older than me, but
you know, they're around and I still look at them
all as superstars. And that show was very legendary on
(06:59):
Oxford Street.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
So so when you got to the age, I think
it was because I looked up as well. It was
the seventeen you actually you decided that's when you were
going to kind of get into the showgirls.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, I started experimenting and talent shows and tragedy, and
you know, I look back at some of the things
I did then, and I remember going There was a
club on Oxford Street, I don't know, it would be
Flow's Palace, and they had a drag contest and I
went into that and won. From there, I went down
to Patches, Yes, and Tricksy Lamont, the star of Patches,
(07:31):
gave me a job helping backstage and I would get
to do a song in the show. And I think
that would have been maybe nineteen eighty. I got into
Patches from doing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
That's what I read up. It was nineteen eighty got
in there.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
But I also was working out at There was a
pub at Balmain, a really early gay pub called the
Balmain town Hall, owned by two friends who I loved,
Dealian called Mom and Dad, David and Brian, and so
a lot of us were working out there three or
four nights a week. And there's a little pub in
Balmain that just was so popular. And so there was
(08:06):
Balmain and there was Patches for me and down O'Donnell,
you know, the very famous lesbian mafia lady, and that
was you know, King of Oxford Street as we like
to call with, you know, Rogia Claude. And I got
into Patches and got into the show and was helping
backstage and doing my song and learning my craft and
(08:26):
being told, you know, how.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
To be a show girl.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
And I learned from all the kids in the show
with Trixie and three D and Cindy Pastel and Sarah
Pax and Maggie Burns and Paul and Egrey and all
of those, and slowly, months and months and months, it just.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Kind of seven years. Yeah, sorry, you were there a
very long time.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, And I didn't leave Patches until nineteen eighty five,
so I stayed there for a very long time. And
it was a real I got into the main show
cast from that and became and you know, you were
if you were in the main show cast at Patches,
you were sort of like Hollywood, you know, like you
were the you know, so it from me back on
Oxford strength. Then that became really Hollywood for me, and
(09:10):
I felt like I achieved something.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Did your parents ever come and see you do a show?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Not until not then? No, not to a gay club.
They were a bit because nowadays it would be yeah,
it's okay. But it wasn't till I joined Simona Monique's
Playgirls and Carlotta's show when I left Patches and became
more of a tits and feather kind of showgirl touring
RSL clubs that mum and dad kind of felt like, okay,
(09:34):
let's take the bingo friends and come and see the show,
because to them that was more mainstream or something that
they could a substance they could be proud of, rather
than a little gay club in Oxford.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
So when was the first time they actually seen you
being transformed down into a woman?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Oh look, I went home eighty two eighty three. You know,
there was a gap, but they'd seen photos and stuff
and they were great. I've got photos from that first
time I went back home and you know, everything was fine,
and we just settled into our routine and then I
I think they came to see I think Mum came about.
We were at South Sydney Juniors and Mum came to that,
(10:11):
and I think it was nineteen eighty five or eighty six,
So there was a little gap, but I think it
was a good gap because it just came around and
you know, I was a bit more polished and pretty
and I had, you know, a little bit of surgery
by then, and so they could appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Ever been married, No, never, never a long relationship.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I there, Yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Were there were two along the way, but I don't know,
you know, there was one very special one and he
would always, you know, wherever we went, people would always
come over to say hello. And he was Italian and
get really upset and he said, I feel like I'm
mister Clifford and I you know, we'd go home and
there'd be a huge fight about it. I'm like, well,
(10:51):
I can't stop people coming up to say hello, because
if they see me sitting somewhere on Oxford Street, they
want to say high penny, you know what I mean.
And it caused a lot of issues and along the
way there's been one or two and some of them
are still great friends. But no, I've never really I
think I've had more successful relationships with dogs and coffee
(11:12):
and you know, apple pies and custards or something.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Was it difficult you at the start? Was it difficult
for you at the start when you transform yourself into
a woman?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Look, you know, over the years, I had some great
fun times, you know what I would call office romances,
especially in the DCM office. There was some wonderful office
romances with you know, many of the man Power boys,
and you know that was always fueled by them coming
into d CM, and you know, fueled by all kinds
(11:42):
of things, and you know, suddenly I'm having a romance
with one of them. And so I won't say I
didn't have a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, But I
think one of the things about being a trans woman,
and I think it might be less now, but there
are very few men that are happy to say I
like a trans woman publicly, you know what I mean, Like,
(12:02):
that's what I found and I didn't want to be
someone's secret, you know, And there's a lot of men
that would want us that find it appealing, but don't
ever want to come out and say to their friends
or their family, you know, this is my girlfriend and
I love her. And the few relationships I did have,
that's how they treated me.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
And that's what I love the most.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That they introduced me to their family and they introduced
me to you know, their friends, and it was a
public thing, and I didn't want to be a secret
or a fetish.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And I think that's why I've just you know.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
From your alone or yourself phone.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know, the many, many things I've done
of touring with shows and going overseas and running what
I think is three of the better nightclubs on Oxford Street,
like ann Erskineville, you know, like DCM for ten years
and the Imperial Hotel at Erskineville which was the home
of Priscilla and then the midnight Shift. I've been very
(12:56):
lucky in a career as well as being a successful
show girl, that sometimes you can't just have everything. And
I've always looked at it like I've had a great life.
And now I live in Byron Bay and I'm super
happy up there, and I think, well, maybe that's the
one thing that's eluded me is just having a partner,
and it's never really you know. I think when I
was younger, maybe it bothered me, but now I'm like, nah,
(13:19):
I think i'd go the other way.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Let's talk about because you just brought it up and
you've got the hats.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
On too, Let's talk Yeah, DCM's okay, So what made
you go to DCMS.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, Patches that I did the shows that and got
into from working backstage and developing my craft is thirty
three Oxford Street and DCM is thirty three Oxford Street.
So I was already working at Patches for doorn O'Donnell
and working out at the Bow Main Pub and working
down at the Unicorn Pub as a show girl. So
(13:51):
Tim Berry and Brook Beeves came in and they bought
I remember them. They ran the Unicorn Hotels, so I
was working for them there, and then they took over
the Bow Main Pub and I was working for them there,
and then they came in and they were like, maybe
you know the gay John Abrahams who knows and very
sweet men and really loved me, and we got along
very well, and they bought Patches off Dawn and so
(14:15):
for I think that was nineteen ninety, but DCM didn't
officially open till July nineteen ninety one. But in that
period there was, like I suppose, a transition, just like
being transgender, of you know, moving because Patches had a
lighter dance floor like Saturday Night Fever on the other
side of the room, and then they moved that into
the middle where DCM was, and they moved bars around,
(14:38):
and they changed a lot of things. And that period
from nineteen ninety when they brought it to nineteen ninety
one was a slow process, yeah, of transforming the club
and then coming up with the name. And then suddenly,
you know, Tim had gone to a New Zealand. So
during that time I'd started, I think i'd started in
the changeover two days a week in the office, and
(15:01):
I remember there was no computers back then. Even the
deliveries were handed.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
In a book, you know, like the unvogular.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Like hand written in this book.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Everything was so old fashioned and there was no such
thing as the worldwide where I don't think it was
super interesting. And so Tim went to New Zealand and
there was a club in New Zealand called DTMs Don't
Tell Mama, and it was Don't tell Mama that I'm gay.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
So he came back from New Zealand with that and
was toying around with it. And there were two drag
queens at the time, and they fought over who came
up with the real idea. There was when s Mungle
Bitch and Talula Bright and when Essa's still around and
Ta Lula's passed away sadly, but she was our door
bitch at DC for a very long time. And they
(15:49):
came up toying with Tim over a champagne or something
to try and have that same kind of initial thing going.
And DCM came up and that was don't cry Mama
rather than don't tell Mama.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And you know, I mean I've.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Seen in the DCM there is like three DCM online groups.
One I run and then one that Georgie J runs,
and there's a whole pile of things of arguments. It's
called don't come Monday, you know, which as it went
from a gay club because over the ten years I
was at d CM, it was very gay at the start,
and around ninety four to ninety five, of course everyone
(16:24):
came in because it became the hottest night club and
so that's when I think, don't come Monday. Had that happened,
But until then it was DCM and it stood for
don't crime Mama, I don't cry, mamma.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I'm gay and I'm having a great time at a club.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And it officially opened in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was the setup was exactly like DCMS like we like,
we like as it is now.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yes, yes, Originally the setup was like because.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
The lighter dance floor where the rear bar was in
the main dance room. That's where the lighter dance floor
was at Patricks and I'm talking like full on Saturday
night fever. Glass lighter dance floor raised different colors, big
huge speaker's fog machine that would spew oil over the
glass dance floor. So sometimes you'd see people dancing and
(17:10):
slipping over in the oil of the fog or a
show girl falling over. I saw lots of that. And
then there were just rows of like RSL club tables
and chairs that would sit because at Patches there was
a show cast every night was you know, a huge
show that was put on, and then little bars everywhere.
They really moved that around the front bar stayed pretty
much the same and the entrance stayed pretty much the same.
(17:32):
I mean they sure they slept a coat of paint
on it and put on some funny, you know, bead ceilings,
but the front bar and the entrance pretty much dates.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
What do you think made that club so so good?
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Especially it was the first super club on Oxford Street.
There wasn't another superclub. There was the midnight shift, but
at that time, early on the midnight shift wouldn't allow
women in. The first woman that was ever allowed into
the midnight shift was Marsha Heines. And I remember reading
about it in the paper because it was a men's
gay club and it was very underground and Flow's Palace
(18:09):
was like more of an Asian bar then, and there
wasn't there wasn't any arc and there wasn't there was
very few clubs. People would go to Capri Sios to
see a show, which was where Stonewall is, and then
they would you know, I remember most people would go
to Caprice shows and then you know, if you're Asian
or Asian lover, you'd stop at Flow's Palace on the
way down because don't forget, it was unsafe to walk
(18:30):
streets then, and it was kind of illegal to still be,
you know, nearly wearing women's clothing a little bit, and
so it was all very underground still and then everyone
would end up at Patches, all go up to lay
Girls to see Carlotta in La Cross. So that was
you know, people went there. And so DCM became the
first super club. And even though we aimed at the
(18:52):
gay people, you know, once people hear about a club,
slowly it started. Other people would come in, but they
were allies what we now use the word allies, you know,
the straight people that love gay people. And you know,
there was any of the Tongue and SAMs in the
early days coming in and we needed, you know, we
needed to install metal detectors to keep you know, that
(19:12):
was ninety six ninety seven that the metal detectors came
in and I'd sit on Tongue and Sam's lap having
a chat to him, not really realizing the background of that,
you know. And so early days it was very gay
the first few years, and then mixed, and I think
that mixture people felt safe and happy, and so then
(19:32):
they would tell their straight prints. You got to come
and see these drag shows, and the gays are fabulous
and just slowly over time, it just changed in the.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I remember when I was rooming the door at d
CMS and I knew the gay community was so anti DCMS.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
When I was there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I remember because it had changed from very much. Because
I've got to say when John bought it from Tim
and Brook in two thousand, I went back a couple
of times and ran a couple of DCMI parties. Margaret
and David Freeman would call me up and say could
you come back? And do you know, I think we
did the eighteenth year of it, and there was another
(20:09):
one that I did and put on, But by then
it had changed, you know, it had really become there
was no gaze going and it became a bit rough.
And I think that started not because of John. It
started happening, like I said, at ninety seven when we
had to put in metal detectors.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know, there was the girl that.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Got shot famous got shot in the boo at the
bar when we're all standing there because two security men,
one of them had a gun and they were just
mucking around at the bar and the gun went off
and she's standing there with brand new perky surgical tits
and the gun went straight through there and into the wall,
and it was a cop killer bullet, you know, one
of those bullets that's straight through and ground through the wall.
(20:51):
And later on when the police came, they said, that's
lucky that bullet didn't even keep straight through that wall
and across the dance floor. So, you know, there were
all those kind of things that slowly changed. I remember
when that because that was a TV the girl got
shot in the bullet at DC.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
My mum rang me and was like, dada that.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And you know that was the last you know, because
I was already leaning towards Okay, I've been here a
long time, but you know I stayed till you know,
six months before it got sold. But yeah, there was
a lot of things that made it change over.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
But did that bring problems to the street because X
Street's always been known as the game lesbian.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah, it did, And so that's when the hate for
d CN came in. Things like the girl got shot
at the bar, and you know, we put in metal
detectors and so we would notice because gay nights were
Thursday night was what we'd call the blue Card night,
and Saturday was sweat night. And Sunday was the tea
dance where it would start early and you would come
(21:46):
in for the tea dance and see the drag show
and all those nights, some of the more gay nights.
As DC progressed through ninety seven and ninety eight, seemed
to wean off a little bit, and you know, we
dropped some of the shows because we could see that
the crowd was changed.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Was that when like when John came in and his
promotion just kind of wind you out and pushed you
out a bit because they were a straight club.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
When he bought it. Yeah, it definitely, but by then
I'd left. None of the management stuff stayed with John. Okay,
we all left. Sue went up to the shift him
bought the midnight shift by then, and I went back
to being a show girl for a while in Carlotta
Show and just flopping about trying to figure out who
I was because after ten years running DCM and and
(22:30):
the ego that came with that, because it was the
number one night club, you believe your own publicity. It
took me a couple of years of just going, wow,
I'm not so special anymore. I don't I don't have
thirty people calling me every hour on the hour to
get into the number one club in Sydney. So yeah,
I wallowed a little bit after DCM, but you know,
found my way back.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
And what about.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
When you when you run it was it was it
still corrupt like on the doors like as it got
was it very well?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Do you mean by well?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know when you've got you had the times when
you have in the cross and you had the corruption
of the police and all like that, comments to the
doors to make sure who's in there or to run
the doors.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Or that didn't start didn't start later on, so early
on we were left alone. Like honestly, you could get
away with so much at DCM, like I remember, just
people were just it was like Studio fifty four. You know,
our birthday parties were legendary and you know you just
turn away if someone was racking up on a table
and let them go because that's what we.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Do you think that was do you think that was?
It was left alone because back then when you had it.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Because it was more gay, yes, correct, and there were
none of the RSA laws and what they were, but
you know, no one paid attention to them, and you
know there was no one being bashed around Oxford Street
early on, unless it was a gay bashing, and that
then we were a safety club. As we went through
the years again around ninety seven and you know, metal
detectors come in and the gays were leaving us a
(23:54):
little bit and moving to you know, I think ARC
opened up around this time. I'm not sure what year
ARC opened, but I remember going to the opening and thinking, Okay,
this is really going to affect our up. And it
did a little bit. We lost a lot of gays.
But but that's when the club. I think John bought
it in two thousands, so that's when it really changed.
But I'd already left by then, but I had gone back,
(24:16):
like I said, and did a couple of things.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
I think when yeah, yeah, around that time.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That time, well, because I've never experienced that. I think
I went once in two thousand or maybe ninety eight
DCMS before I was doing anything. I'm on the doors,
But do you think that was the best era for
DCMS when you had it?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Look, you know, that's a conversation and I saw I'm
sure you see it in all the DCM groups and
you know, even the group I run as specifically what
we call the og group. It's from nineteen ninety to
two thousand and and you know, someone comes in there
and says something nice about John Ibraham. He gets blocked,
you know, not really, but he should because that's that era,
(24:54):
you know. And then I see other groups that are
the Sunset Brothers and u N Sydney, which is United
Nations John Ibraham's United Nations. And yes, I'm gonna eye
roll there because that was just a wang. And sorry, John,
You're very sweet, but what a wang. And you know
(25:15):
it's just funny, you know. And so it definitely it changed.
And you know d c M from two thousand John's
d CM. People argue all the time, what's better, but
you see it, and there's so the groups are so
passionate about it.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I get all the time because when I do the
walks and talk about d CMS.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, and I mean I've even come in. I mean, like, no,
our group was better. It's hard not to say something.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Because I look at it from when I looked of
the door and two thousand and two to close. That
was massive. You're back back then. But as I said,
I never seen what happened when you had it, you
know what I mean. But that's why I've just got wow.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I mean, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
You can watch season two of Last King of the
Cross to see the transition, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Okay, all right, dramatic license in there.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Now you're bringing up this. Now this is I wasn't
gonna bring this up yet. Okay, but now jump around.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I'm waiting to it off.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Now, Lasking of the Cross. You've got a character that
plays you. Yeah, okay, apparently, well apparently.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
With anyone else with a dramatic Well, no, there's no
other six foot two that ever ever worked at Patches
to d C days, So yes, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
So how how much of that is true? On your
behalf of what you've seen of your character?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
There were quite a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I mean, but Tim and Brook weren't Indian, I think
in the in the show they're Indian, So you know,
there was that which cracked me out. But there were
certain things of John coming to the club as a
kid and and everyone thinking it was just hot stuff,
and you know, all of us going sexy man, and
you know that's what our show girls were like back then, and.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
There was a lot of it.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Did you try?
Speaker 1 (26:52):
No, I don't remember. Look, I would sure.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
And if I don't remember, see that's I like short
really man.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, the.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Two relationships I've had, I've always been with short ethnic guys.
You know, give me a Lebanese or an Italian and
I'm happy. But no, wonder I've never kept one. Yeah,
but I don't remember. But look, everyone thought he was
fabulous and he would hang around and stuff. But a
lot of there was definitely the early parts in the
(27:29):
first few episodes of Me and Stuff very close. You know,
there's an episode where my character kills herself and John
saves her. I don't remember that. I think that might
be a dramatic license in there somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It wasn't me. But you know, it is a TV
show too, so I mean, you're not in it.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
You should be in it.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Where's David and Margaret well right hand people, and they're
just not in the show. So obviously John's version of
it is either clouded by substance or by ego.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Who And that's just from me. Sorry. I know you
love him.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I love him too, but you know, and I see
him because I live in Byron Bay. I see him
occasionally come into Byron Bay and we say hello.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
At a distance, like, hey, you.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Going when you have DCMS?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
What clients hell would come into DCMS for you, like
you're saying, because it was a well known.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Super cool, A lot of a lot of the show
girls would come in because we had a rule. You know,
show girls got in for free, drag queens got in
for free. And you know we had different types of
memberships as well. You know, Thursday Night was a gay membership.
It was a blue card. If you were lucky to
get one of those, you'd have to apply. You'd get
in for free. And Saturday Night was a sweat membership
that people wanted and they had to I think the
(28:49):
sweat one was one hundred dollars, which was a lot
of money back then, but that got you you could
Q jump and you could get in for free and
bring one another with you. I'm sure one of the
managers will message me when they see this and go, Nah,
you're wrong. I obviously was drinking way too much back then.
That's what I remember about the sweat membership. And then
(29:11):
there was an industry membership that you couldn't buy and
you would be given which was a barter system for
US managers to give to VIPs and that industry card
would get two or three people in for free and
you would be treated a little better every night. And
then there was a gold card, and there were I
think in general there was probably a gold card that
(29:33):
just got your free drinks and any amount of people
through the door. And I think there was only ever
less than fifty gold cards ever.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Given out during the entire range. They were special how
many could hold when you are, oh, you're really pushing
me there, but I think it was I think at
the time it was like five hundred.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
How many would you get in?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Like like what we used to say the same for us,
like it was like I think we had a license
for three hundred and forty three sixty something like that,
but there was always like twelve hundred in there.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Like yeah, it was crampy.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Peeps more especially, and we would do hearty long weekends,
like even though we had a twenty four hour license
back then before all the apartments were built out of DC,
and we would like on a good long weekend like
an October long weekend or an Easter Sunday weekend, we
would open on a Friday at ten and not shut
until Monday morning.
Speaker 4 (30:23):
Like we would just go all the way through.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
We would be twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So as managers, we would all go home, get some sleep,
and go back the next day to do the next shift.
And the cleaners would come through while people are still dancing. Wow,
you know, and go all day. They were crazy days.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Who were some of the famous people that have gone
through that door that you've seen?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Oh god, so many names. I'm in the minogues.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Do any of them misbehave?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
No, they didn't, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
And even down to real housewives sitting in. Melissa cout
she was a regular Marsha heines. You know. A couple
of times with Melissa, I drag her into the office,
Go okay, you make up some mess, let me fix
that for you.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Oh so you only went there for some effection makeup
in the office. Yeah. When I used to go.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
To the office, it wasn't well.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
The office was used for many many things, mixing up maker,
heating up things in the microwave. I had a few
office romances with some of the manpower boys in there, well,
I must say, And yeah, the office was the playground,
(31:29):
the playground for all of us. But in general, you know,
people would just sit up there like the VIPs like,
you know, it was nothing to open the office door
to go and do something work wise and see Marsha
heines having a chat and looking at all the security
wall because we had security cameras. And then there'd be
a buzzer downstairs, more champagne for Marsha and up it
ad come or or whoever it was. I remember, you know,
(31:51):
some of the biggest stars, like the Pet Shop Boys
came in and they hired the club for the an
album launch and they walked in downstairs and we greeted
them and they didn't want to know about the event
downstairs for the launched. They said, is there's somewhere private
we can go? And we took them upstairs to the office.
And the office was really basic back then. I know
(32:12):
that you know the un and John had put lounges in.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
There was none of that.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
We had office chairs and tables and it was quite
sparse and fluo lights and you know, it wasn't glamorous,
but everyone loved it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
It wasn't the place to go and have a chat.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, and so the Pet Shop boys came up there
with me and you know, they stayed for a long time,
and you know, their management would come up and go,
you really need to come down and do some photos
with the VIPs in the front bar because that was
secluded off for their album launch.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
And they were like in a minute. They were busy
doing things with the microwave. They used the microwave a lot.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But the funniest thing I remember from the Pet Shop
boys because of the fluo lights, is that I kept
looking at them going, they're so fucking old, like they
were old, old man, and you know we're talking in
the nineties. Go figure. I was so shocked at how
old they looked. And so the week after we installed
dimmers in the office because I was like that we
(33:14):
kind of have those Feroh lights if we all looked
that over. So we had nice dimmer lights put in
to soften when VIPs came in, and you know things
like that.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
So dcms like when I'd say, anyone brings.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Up Decease and there was a lot more stars. So look,
Mary Kiani, the high energy singer from Scotland, came over
and became part of our family, and she was a
DCM family and there was we did the launch of
the Romeo and Juliets soundtrack. I can't remember her name
I've gone blank now, but she came in and she
was part of that, and there was just always Madonna
came in at some point in Madonna, she was in town.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
She came a disease.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, and this is early, and she came in and
she had a She popped in for a second because
it was like phone calls and popped in, stayed for
five minutes, fled, and then she had a birthday because
she was on tour with the Girly Tour. So whatever,
it'll be the year the Girly Tour hit Sydney, so
I think could have been ninety eight something like that.
And she had a party down at you know, under
(34:14):
the Harbor Bridge. What's that restaurant that used to be
down there where the Harbor viewers, like Pier.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
One or something like that.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
She had a birthday party down for her brother who
she no longer talks to, Christopher, and it was just drag,
queens galore, And we all went to the party and
we were sitting with her and there was a up high.
She had lesbians on stocks, and you know, it was
very bizarre, and you know, people pouring hot wax on
lesbian snipples and people whipping gay boys on these you know,
(34:44):
the things that turn around like that and whipping them
and she just was like this S and M party
for a brother.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
It was very bizarre.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
And I remember at one point she was like, ID
to climb that ladder and pour hot wax on that
lesbian snipples And I was.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Like, okay.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I was like, all, let's do this. And you know
the next day I got up and did it. You know,
there was a pause, and you know it was all.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Fun, and that's the bravado of you know, being a
DCM manager. We would do crazy things like that. And
so it was written up in the Daily I think
it was a Daily Telegraph or something. My mum read
it and she was like, what is that. You know,
Penny was seen at the Madonna thing, you know, pouring.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Hot wax, you know on it.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
There was a whole rider, not just about me, but
the whole thing and Penny one of the managers at DCM,
and I was like, Lord, have mercy. Those are the
kind of weird things. I wish I had that clip.
I wish I had that little Daily Telegraph clip because
couldn't I frame that? That's like acclaim to fame. So
there's so many of those little things over the years.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
You know, as I said before, like I think DCMS
was it the first club we you should go in
there and all members of their tops off, like is that?
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
It was, yeah, And it wasn't just gay man, it
was straight man like. It was a ride of passage
for you know, a straight man to come in in
his leather pants and take his shirt off and get
up on that podium and sweat and go off, and
that's that's.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
There's no rules, really no.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And it was the uniform you know, every gay man
and every straight man that came in there. And as
we as the years progressed, it was always more straight
man leather pants. And you know they'd get up to
the front step and you know, already chewing and echy
jaw and off eki off they'd go. And they'd be
they'd been somewhere and they'd come up and whoever the
door bitch was or something, they'd stand there with their
(36:30):
dollars would be folded up and it'd take them five
minutes to unfold the dollars. And you know, we were
really tough. You know, if you can't have your money ready,
go back downstairs. And line up again, you know, like
there was fashion police. It was all kinds. Oh yeah,
we had people would walk along. I remember to LULAA. Bright,
she was one of about favorite drags at the door.
(36:51):
She would walk down and she goes, you know, they'd
get up the stairs past security and she'd go, you're
not coming in with those shoes. I don't care if
you've got past security, go you're not coming in tonight.
Your shoes are ugly.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
So I wasn't the only one who didn't know.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And then no, we started the fashion police early, like
at some point, you know, there were there were even
shifts like I would just be downstairs and I would
just walk along because the lineup would go all the
way up the end, and I just walk along and go, No,
you're not coming in tonight. Sorry that outfit. No, not
with that hair.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
You know, like we were. You can't do that now,
but you know that's what we did.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Were you start to leave DC's.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Look at the time when I left, just I think
it was six or seven months before it got sold.
I think it got to the point where it was
healthier for me to leave because it really had become like,
you know, we were living in a bubble as the
managers of the club.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
No, I never had a chat with him about that.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Oh wow, so no, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
No, I never had a chat with him about so
he just came in and brought his new people, know
these new people in you.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Wow, I didn't know that. I thought you actually mst
have got the officer to stay.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
No, no, no, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
So then calling you back to come back and run
the DCM parties was very nice, you know, it was
lovely and I and you know, David and Margaret and
I got along and you know, John would come in
and I would run the I did two or three
what I classified as you in Sydney, and you.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Know, because I think we started to do some gay
and lesbian nights on Sunday nights too. Yeah, but they
didn't actually work because I think it got to the
point there where the Gay and Lesbian's or Oxtra Street
were two anti dcms.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
It just yes, no, they just never came back because
there was just too much. It was, you know, they
didn't feel comfortable inside because it had gotten it had
gone from a few scrapes when we were owning it
to much more when John and had become very tessaone Field,
I suppose it's the word.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Do you think it? Like, like credibly if I'm wrong?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Ox Street, No for for what it is, Okay, So
when a straight people come into your clubs, do you
just get a bit like shitty with them coming in?
Because look they talk over DCMS. Okay it was.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
See, I personally didn't. I loved that the club.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I was always proud that our club, our version of DCM,
was really happy and mixed. And I was always proud
that all kinds of people could come to the club
because to me, that's what all clubs should be.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
But I feel like it.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
But then it got really bad.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Ye like look at Ark now arcs Now Laura, But
the same thing happened at Ark. I saw that that
was specifically a gay club, and then slowly.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
You let them in, Yeah, and it becomes a straight club.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
And now I see the hate for you know, I
live in Barrons, so I've been I've lived there eight
nine years now, so I follow things what's going on.
But you know, I see a lot of hate towards
Noir is it? You know? I am now and I
see a lot of hate because a lot of from
the gay community because they so close to Stonewalls. So
(39:50):
two clubs so close together with two different demographics and
people is causing some issues between that.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Well, that's when DCMS moved up to Havana and the
same thing happened when stone Wall didn't.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Like it Bibloss and you know, at some point the
gays were then saying DCM has now turned Oxford Street straight,
because then we had bib Loss and then we had DCM,
and you know, and then ARC started going straight, and
you know, it became a different Oxford Street From me, it's.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
A little bit more gay now. But now, I mean,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I haven't been out on Oxford Street for a while,
but with Noir there now and Aura has taken over,
I don't know, has it changed much?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Have you been there?
Speaker 4 (40:33):
You go out, I don't go out, but I've seen
the streets and.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
You get invited to the opening night of Aura. I
got invited Dave Old, who owns it. It was one
of the main manager of DCM back in my DCM days.
He's a lovely, lovely man. And you know, I was
in Byron and I had a rough week and I
was like, I can't come down, But I got invited still,
so it was nice to still be invited by him,
(40:57):
and I would like to go and see the club
and it looks beautiful, and I hope that people mix
in there a bit because so I know that Dave's
so gay friendly and such an ally and has always
been a wonderful supporter of me.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
But he can be gay friendly, but it's their clients.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
It's the crowd that come, and he can't control that
black at Noir. So it's not always his fault, and
it wasn't always our fault at the end of DCM either,
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So when you left DCMS, where did you go?
Speaker 3 (41:26):
I fluffed around, Like I said, I fluffed around for
a little while. You know, it was a real like
I suppose, coming off drugs nearly to leave a venue
where you are so high profile and so well loved
to nothing for a minute. But I was lucky because
I still had my showgirl. Because all through DCM, I
(41:46):
still kept you know, I was hosting at it an
extreme nightclub at Parramatta, which was a huge strip club
at the time, and Fridays and Saturdays I would host
out there and I love that, and I was still
keeping up show Girls, so I went back into Carlotta
was touring again, so I joined that.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I ended up managing show for a little while.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I worked for a music company for a while and
that was God. I did that from JRB Music and
we released Mary Mary Keianni album I became friends with
from DCM and a Melissa Kutz album. I did that
for a couple of years, and yeah, I stayed around there,
and then I ended up a friend was having a
(42:27):
rough time, and I moved to the Gold Coast for
a minute and then came back and started as one
of the managers at the Imperial Hotel in Erskineville.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
How was that?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
That was fantastic? It was nice to be back in
hospitality again. It was nice to be back running a
gay club that hadn't been.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
What year was that that you came back to time?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Do you think do you think the crowd had changed
when when you come back? Do you think it was
a lot different?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yeah? The stray here was out of decline from a
little bit, and so we brought it back up and
now it's a wonderful venue.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
But it's mixed again, you know. So I got a
lot of hate too.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
It's like wherever Penny goes, a mixed club happened. So
I stayed there for a few years, but was very
happy to be back in hospitality. And from there I
went to By this stage, Tim had left the midnight
shift and the owners were running it, and after the
Imperial they asked me to go to the shift and
I ran that for a few years, and then finally
(43:22):
at an older ladies age, I moved to Byron Bay.
Speaker 4 (43:25):
So are you officially retired from the life for what?
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yes, from nightlife?
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Yeah, I still work, but I worked for the Department
of Education now, so I will what a what a
change in job. But I wouldn't I love it and
wouldn't change.
Speaker 4 (43:39):
I think, what's your best memories?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Like, out of all of it, what what what sticks
out the most in your head about Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Just the family, the family at DC and what I
like to call the family, the people that would come
in we were even though it was like a huge
family of a thousand people. I mean, you know, there
was very many computers back then. So I remember every
month we would do a four printed newsletter and sit
there and fold them and put them in envelopes and
send that out to our database to promote next month's events,
(44:09):
and we would advertise in three D world. It was
print media, so there was no social media. So those
kind of things and the rapport of just being with
the managers of DCM and we became a family and
we were you know, and I'm still friends with most
of them today.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
You know, Well, when you had DMS, do you think
it was what was it? Do you think it was
the venue, the DJ's, the crowd, what was it that
brought them to DCS when you had it?
Speaker 3 (44:34):
I think people. I think the gays came because it
was a changeover from Patches and they stayed with us.
The drag shows kept them and a safe place for
them to come. The straight people when they started coming
in were all they didn't know the word allies back then,
but were supportive and friendly and wanted to be included
in it, and somehow stumbled in slowly in it and
it infiltrated slowly. I think people loved the drag shows.
(44:58):
I think they loved the girls loved going to a
place where boys wouldn't always harass them for sex because
there was more gay people there, and you know, that's
how it normally happens, you know, like a gay guy
will bring a straight girlfriend and well.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
That's what I was like, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
So that's how it changes. And then the straight girlfriend
will invite three other girlfriends and then their boyfriends, and
then the boyfriends realize hey, this is a who and
then slowly over time it changes, and so yeah, I
think that's how it's happened. I mean, I have so
many great memories, the birthday parties, that Good Friday Harbor
(45:34):
Cruisers DCM's Good Friday Harbor Cruse with legendary for ten years.
We would hire a boat because no club could be
open Good Friday back then, and we would invite our
core VIP members and the staff and we would get
on the boat and go out. I mean, look, I
don't There were a couple of cruises where, you know,
I'd walk on the boat, get a scotch and go
(45:55):
downstairs to the toilet and I would be chatting down
in the toilet of the boat, and then someone would
come down and go the cruise is finished, and I'm
still in the toilet talking and I'm like, it can't be.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's a six hour cruise and they're like down there for.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Six hours and I'm sitting up on the little lens
chatting to people like holding court. You know. Those are
the funny times where I'm like, oh, I just missed
a whole cruise.
Speaker 4 (46:26):
How did that?
Speaker 3 (46:28):
You know? And then we'd go and all go to DCM,
but it wasn't open, so we would just go in
and have a few quiet staffy drinks.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
That turned into all kinds of crazies.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
I think I like the family aspect of it too,
Like you know now, I even at the reunion parties
that kind of started from John and Margaret and David
inviting me back to start long We've now started doing
them at the Imperial and I started running the Imperial.
The first one, I think the major one we did
after that was twenty thirteen and they were jam packed.
People flew in for everywhere for that, and you would
(47:01):
people would come up and go just my wife and
I met her at DCM. And now the last one
we did was last Marti Gras at the original d CM,
and people are coming up, going, this is my daughter
and I get to dance on a podium with us
because I met her at your club. And then the
daughter's like, oh look, and I heard mom and Dad
(47:22):
had sex in the phone party, you know, because they
were people. The phone parties were huge where we'd fill
up the dance floor from foam, like turn it into
a pool and fill it up and everyone would get
in and dance, and apparently there was sex under the foam,
and we'd had a few complaints underneath. I was talking
to Ben Morris, the lighting manager who became one of
the full managers at DCM, the other day and do
(47:44):
you remember what was the name of the record store,
Fish Records, was downstairs and the foam would leak and
run in and there was thousands of CDs ruined from
the phone running through the floorboards, and you know, things
like that, I mean the great things too. Tim and
Brook were even Ben reminded me that, you know, when
we needed we were the first club in the Southern
(48:06):
Hemisphere to have a lighting rig that moved on motors.
You know, it was unheard of back then, but Tim
and Brooke would want to get those kind of things in,
you know, and new lighting desks that could be at
the time were high tech and fifteen thousand dollars worth.
And it was definitely the DJs too. There seemed to
be a real change from just the essence of the
club to the drags to then the DJs became the start.
(48:29):
Originally it was the show good, but the DJs definitely
became the name then and people would go for them,
go for them, and it's still now. Look you know
some of the DJs now, you know, iconic and legendary
and any.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Regrets, No, no regrets at all.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
No, I don't often you change, but what happened like
going from your life to where you've worked, what you've done,
happy with?
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Oh, look, you know I'd always say I wish I
hadn't bought that car, or I wish and hadn't dated
that man. Or I mean I'm a bit of a
teetotal and now and sometimes I think I wish I
had not drink as much maybe back then, but it
was the lifestyle and you know, nothing huge, No, No,
I think I think as a trans woman that was
(49:18):
a showgirl, d CM was a perfect you know, I
went to TAFE. Well, I did a promotions a marketing
course at TAFE while I was at d CM and
sharpened my skills. I just wasn't relying on going from
a showgirl and writing deliveries in a book and learning
a computer system because it was in the house. I
went and studied and it helped me to better myself.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So I think in general, no, well, before we go,
describe yourself in one word for me, Penny.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
In one word, Wow, that's difficult. A few words, well,
give me two works.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
It depends on I'm oil. I can be difficult, but
I can be lovable.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Okay. Before yeah, I'll ask you another question. Where did
you get the name Penny Clifford? Where'd you get that from?
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Back in the day, Well, Clifford was my family name,
and drags and show girls had weird names.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Back in the day.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
There was Tricksy low Mount and trees are green like
trees are green, but Teresa Green Sarah Pax, which was
a medication that everyone took. And so when I first
started my first talent show, I was obsessed with the
living Newton John. So I didn't even my first drag
name was Olivia Neutron Bomb because all I would, and
(50:37):
you know, I was tragic back then. Let me do
blond Wig, blue eyes, shadow you. I've got a photo
of it, and I laugh at it now, but and
I would and at Balmaintown Hall Hotel. I would just
do you know Alvy Newton John Songs and think I
was fabulous. It was very funny. And I met Tricksy
and she said that's a stupid name. You can't have that.
(50:57):
And everyone had weird names, and so she went, I
think you should have Penny Trait and I was like okay,
and she would introduce me is miss Penetrate and then
if she was drunk, you know, Tricksy on a microphone
to go and here's miss Pennytrate.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
My bowly area coming after you. I always remember that thinking,
oh God, what are we going to know? But Pete.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
But during that was at the early started patches, so
people just knew me as Penny, and suddenly people were
calling me Penny and and I was like, okay, well
that name stuck.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
I mean obviously I dropped the trade.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, and so it just became a natural progression to
add a family name with it. When I changed my
name by deep Hole in nineteen eighty one or something,
it became Penny Clifford.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And it's still wow, man, still with me. Maybe I
should have been Amanda. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
I like Penny.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
I like it's worked for me all these years.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
Well, thank you Penny for coming on.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Thank you Neil. It's been lovely chatting love this.
Speaker 4 (52:00):
It's been worth the wait.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Well, it's lovely to see your face and guns and
all of that so I can take you back to
twenty years ago and flirt with you.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
All over again.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
Thanks paid, Thanks now,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!