March 10, 2025 • 36 mins
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In this gripping episode of Secrets of the Underworld, Neil sits down with Jay Malkoun—a man who lived and breathed the criminal life before turning it all around. Once entrenched in the world of organised crime, Jay shares raw and honest stories about his time inside the underworld, the power struggles, and the life-threatening moments that shaped him.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approache Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am
Neil the Muscle comments and in this episode I speak
with former Underweld figure and standover man Jay mal Kuhn.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We preferred not to kill you. We will do it,
but we won't be happy about it. But you know
the consequences being in jail to you, I said, committee,
you must pay. It isn't a fucking around him. I'm
not leaving without my money. But to get a taser
and knife, some gaffer tape, and I had to turn
nothing into a weapon. So if anyone was going to
(00:42):
have a problem, that would have been there, not me.
There's nothing more rewarded than not in some.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Jay, thank you for coming in.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Thanks having me when I when I seen your book
come out, I wanted to approach you, and I thought
I'd let you do your thing first because you are
promoting it and I'm glad. I was reached out by
one of your friends and he wanted to get me
to get you on my show, and I was.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was keen as to get you on. But we'll
start off.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
With you as a person before all all the heavy
ship that happened, but you growing up and tell me
about you, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty
of everything.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Oh it's not that exciting, believe me, it will be.
But you know, we grew up in the housing commision area.
All the parents were all the kids were left to
run a mark. Most families had four to six to
ten kids, predominantly boys, and I know we all played up.
(01:44):
I wasn't any I wasn't unique. I was just one
of many. I used to have to run home when
I was younger to avoid getting bashed. So I discovered
that you can bash back. Wow. Yeah, And it happened
one day. There were two of us running and avoid
a little gang, and he got left behind. Go on.
I think that must have been about nine. So I
(02:05):
ran back and picked up it. They used to have
house These have trees in front of every home, and
these pickets told them together and there was one lane
on the ground. So I just slipped that up and
fucking attacked him with it. I got an amazing response.
They shot himselves and around. I discovered that you can
fight back.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, it was great, very liberating.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
What did you grow?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Reservoir? Patridge Prison was full of kids from Reservoir and
Coburg literally full of them. Valley Street, Winter Crescent was
all always banging on. You know. My dad used to
stand at the front of the at that gate, waiting
for us to come home, to see if we had
fights and torn clothes and bloodied and if we were
(02:49):
we were in trouble. If we came home normal, we
were okay. He didn't like, he didn't condone us playing up.
But no, it was just it was just the environment
schooling for you. I struggled. I started when I went
to school when I started schooling and speak English, so
I struggled, always struggled. But I mean I enjoyed it.
I went to every class even though I couldn't really
read well, I'd still stood up in the class and
(03:09):
did my best. I was never embarrassed to humiliated. I
just did my best. I guess I didn't know any better.
What was it?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
What was your goal when your left school?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
What did you want?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To be a policeman?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Really?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fuck me?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah that doesn't saying around.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah No, I actually applied to be a cup when
I was seventeen and I couldn't fill up the phone properly,
so I was rejected.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So that's that's all stopped you. Otherwise would have been
a cop.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Probably would have been a crup cup. That would have
been a cop. I would have fucked that ship up right,
give me your money, don't tell me.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
One fucked up. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No, I don't know. It's a vass. But that was
actually my first application. It was like the when when
you were at that age, there wasn't many options. Was
if you're academically not right, you can't you know, you're
not going to be an accountant or a lawyer, or
you're they're going to drive a fucking bus or apply
for something that you may you maybe be good at.
So I thought just trying the police force that I
think I was just seventeen at the time. That paperwork,
(04:05):
and I was promptly rejected, and.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You didn't want to apply again. You just forgot it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That Nah, that was just tick that box and move on.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Is that was that what you thought after that?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Not at all? Look, I never I was. I was
really a good kid mate like became My parents were
really good without religious people and right from wrong and
don't steal and don't take what's not your usual. That
was that's how we all were. Yeah, I fell into
crime because I just did you know, it happened to
be at the right place or the wrong place at
(04:35):
the right time, at the wrong time, and I made
a decision. I went that way.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
How how did your parents feel when they when they
know that you were involved in the underworld and that
kind of stuff, did they did they change towards you?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
No? No, they didn't know you kept a secret phone.
It wasn't It wasn't a regular activity. It was very rare.
It wasn't like, but.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Where do we get around that?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
What you know, what your son's doing? This is who
your son's hanging around with?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That there wasn't. I wasn't hanging out with anyone. I
was hooked in with the triads. Rides were overseas. My
contacts were in Sydney. I lived in Melbourne. I drove
lumpy cars. Because I developed a property at the edge
of twenty, I entus strayed at twenty one. I I
validated what I was my spending. I justified it so sweet.
(05:20):
I was a little fucking on entrepreneur. My parents are
very proud.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So okay, so you've got them back from police. So
what what? What was your next line to go down? Where
did you go from me?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
At that time I was I had started doing training
take one day, at the edge of five. We were
like they were the Bruce Ley days. Me and the
rest of the world were taken about Bruce Ley. We
all wanted to be Bruce Lay. I wanted to be
band Wow. Yeah, of course younger than me. That So
when I was sixth day and I met the Lacey brothers.
(05:57):
There were twin brothers from Hong Kong and they had
an academy in Perth. They wanted to open up in
Melbourne and somebody introduced me to them. We started training
in the park every day. So at that age I
was right into martial arts and I was training to
fight in the sixth International Martial Arts Invitation Tournament in Macau,
so that that totally consumed me. So we did that.
(06:19):
That's when I when I turned Just before I turned
out in there was a bit of a hiccup with
a gun and some lebows and some bouncers that I diffused.
Just that I just happened to be there and the
security offered me a job and so I started doing
store work, which was great. Yourself, there's nothing more rewarding
than looking some catch out.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I usually go to work to hope and I was
going to knock somebody up. That's what you used to
go to work for it. It was like he'll give
you a high.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
You know what I mean, You're to be trouble.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I loved it. I was like, fuck girls and fucking
comes out. I'd go home and play in bed under
we live it in my head. I did by public.
I worked at very rough places, so it was on
all night. It would be fucking You'd have at least
three or four dust ups, probably be up to eight.
And it was really good. We loved it. And I
(07:08):
worked with really good blokes, really good solid blakes that
could bang it on.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, some working the How long did you went the doors.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
For until I discovered money? Eighten to twenty?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
So what came first?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You like?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Did did the motorcycle game come first?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
After this? What came from? Where? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Now? The minorcycle came way after this? Like we had
bouncing coat dealing person for ten years, got out, then
we had the underworld killings for about ten years. Then
I got hooked into some mining groups. Seen that has
some big problems. So it was resolving, and they they
kept me on full time and then we did the
(07:50):
biking stuff. I was up with them for five years
and then I jumped up with the commos. Yeah, well
I still looked after the mining goes.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
You went to the corporate world of money for what.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Okay, So this is what happened. A friend of mine
is in the book. He had a little problem with
some coffin cheatters in perth Yep. So he called me
up and said, ah, what do we do. I said,
let's get on a plane and go and see him. Brother.
So he rang out there mutual in Perth ye and
said we're coming in the morning, going to sort this
shit out because I wanted their way to break his
(08:24):
legs apparently and anyway, and then you know, I got
involved and it was diffused quite quickly, and he was
very he's very successful dude, and he's very willing too.
By the way, he didn't he didn't actually need me.
He could stand on his own two feed, but was
a lot easier with me. And he's back in this corner.
So from there he wanted me to go on tour
with him, because although the problem was solved, that wasn't
completely solved. He wanted to be close by, so we
(08:46):
went to London where we met his partner. His partner
had a similar problem with the coffin cheaters, but this
was a two hunch, a mean dollar problem, right, and
my mother may goes, well, let ja sort it out.
And this is my first exposure to this sort of money.
And these kinds were getting fucking drunk one hunter old
Scotch and to be honest that there wasn't paying that
(09:07):
much fucking attention. But you know, my mate said, let
him sort of that. He goes, oh, can he do it?
He goes, yeah, of course you can. And then my
mate asked me, got draw up a little one pager
saying for services as requested a million dollars cash or
US dollars and sixteen million shares and sixty men uppies
to resolve this issue. The shares were training at seventy
(09:30):
two cents at the time. It was about a seven
eight million dollars deal. Said quickly, taps up in the
business center, hands it to him. He fucking through it
out the window. He was drunk at The window was
a balcony, so my mate jumped out the window and
grabbed it and gave it back to him, so he
signed it and off he went. He transferred the me
into his account, which I saw part of. By the way,
(09:53):
he was getting half everything. And then I flew the
Perth and caught up with the cheats who are mate's
of mine, and another fellow over there, junk is On,
and we worked it out. It was all resolved. I
got paid.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So so now have you already got that reputation already
for who you you are?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well? The thing is, I was incarcerated in Pantridge for
ten years. It's a make some security for yeah. Out
of that ten years, I probably did nine months out
in other jails. They couldn't they couldn't have come at
me anywhere else. So I did have and know I
was known. I was known. You know, we did things.
(10:31):
You'd have to do things. You know, you got to
tool up and you gotta you can't sit on the fence.
If someone sucking around, you just have to put a
hold on them, you know how it is. Right, So
by the time I got out of prison, I was
very well known. So it was it wasn't hard for
me to get things, get people to agree or comply.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It's still not yeah, you still got that power.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
We do all right now.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
When you were in Penbridge jail, there is there is
a kind of quote there that you did some deal
with chop a read.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, it wasn't a deal. It was going to knock
some can some deal. It's just doing work, bro So
who you going to know? We're at war for about
seven years with a different team. And yeah, they come
and they go. When you can get your hands on him,
to get your hands on them. Like one particular time,
I was in another prison, another maximum security prison, and
one of them came back through the system, and I
(11:25):
had a friend of mine in that division. So I
rang my lawyer, the PA, I said, ring the prison
and ask him to give Lenny a message to call
this lawyer at one o'clock and give your number, which
she did, and then I drank at one o'clock and
she joined us, and I said, Lenny, this counts in
your division, broke and sort him out. So lennenly promptly
went and got a big fucking bit of steal and
(11:47):
ran in the cell and iron barred him. You get
shit done. This other count who was in the system,
but he was in Chopper's water h division can't get
to him, impossible to get to him. They get one
hour exercise a day. But I had a plan. I
wanted to muck this camp chopper gives him their milk
in their breakfasts and their food every day. He was
the billet so and I need the kitchen staff. So
(12:10):
we got some poison to put in the milk to
deliver to him. They can't have relied on to get
the poison. Got us a dad. So the whole thing
didn't work. But we did it. We actually we actually
did it. Just didn't work, you know as it well
as a way blood.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, So the times that you've been in there, the
likes of like Chop I Red. You just spoke about
Carl when he was in the mccallo. Were you around
it and when all the all the ship was happening
at that time in Melbourne or you were you out
of there and doing other things?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We mean when they're all the births getting knocked. Yeah,
but that was the ti tat thing going on. But
didn't involve you, No, No, he kept out of it. Well,
nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, if you didn't get no one tried to draw
you in.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I look someone asked me to do something, to get involved,
but I knew both sides. Yeah, so I just stayed
sat on the fence, but not my business. I knew
a lot of those guys that were and we're good blogs,
I mean most of them. But that is what it is.
You know, you live by the swords.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You've seen Sydney and you've seen Melbourne. You've been probably
over states too. Who do you think I'm gonna I'm
gonna say this the real deal, the real you've got.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
You've got a lot of.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Underworld in different states here, all right, who's the real deal?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
This is a tricky question because anyone could pay someone
of these unber.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah I understand that, but but that But you know,
you see what's going on in Melbourne, you see what's
going on Sydney. You can see what goes on in
over States. But you know, I look at it and
go like, fuck, Melbourne's.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Pretty harsh, you know what I mean, We bang it on,
bang it on here. I mean they're very quick to
react here. If I have to compare, i'd say Sydney
more reactive, definitely, most Like they don't fuck around here
in Melbourne. Nine times out of tennant can be resolved
again is probably the last option. But here they're just
sure they don't fuck around here.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
But you think you think, you think the old school
system's gone.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now everything evolves, you know, we've gone from black and
white to color. Yeah, everything evolves even now, Like the
amount of money evolved is massive as the how do
you resist that? Yeah, the earth of these young guys
that are you know, come from not much offered a
men or two to do it quicker, and I mean
it's very hard to and all these kids are willing
(14:27):
for some real I think all this exposure to the
Internet and all this exposure of violence on your phone,
they're sort of numbing people to consequences and the reality
of what's going on. I was never exposed to that,
so I can't imagine what this youth are going through
and how they're dealing with it. I suppose you they
embrace it where you shy away from it. But Sydney
is definitely a very serious date. I'd have to say,
(14:50):
if you're going to compare to answer that question, the
real the realer deal would have to be Sydney. You
go to the Winners West. We admit it. We prefer
not to kill you. We will do it. We won't
be happy about it.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
You also liked God Honor.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah. Yeah, my first club when I was twenty twenty
three was that I loved it a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Was it just that, I think at the time to
get into the night life scene or would you not
get into it now?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
No, the thing was because I started security today changing anything.
I actually knew anything. I understood well, I understood the door,
comparing it under there was money out of the bar,
and you could make money from night club so I'd
worked in them for a couple of years, so there
was a natural progression for us. And it wasn't it.
I wasn't just me as my brothers and we all
chipped in. We didn't have It wasn't big money. It
was like us eighty ninety thousand dollars for a club.
(15:46):
We spent about fifty renovating it. But back then it
was a lot of money, but not like here now
now you couldn't even get a fucking front door for
that money. But for us it was good. I mean,
like you have to appreciate we didn't come from anything.
We had no money, so to have a couple hundred
grand was significant when we worked. But we worked hard
even after I played for eighteen months two years on
(16:08):
occasion whenever was available. We didn't We didn't make millions
of dollars. We made money, but then we worked that
money and made more money. So I'm saying that I
told you earlier. I owned the street. I used my
forty thousand dollars that I earned as a deposit, and
I pre sold some of the sales some of the
land to develop it, and that's how and then I
sold some wine paid the remainderud and that's how I
(16:31):
developed it. I didn't go and pay five hundred thousand cash.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
But was it hard for you because of your name
not to get harassed by the police?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
You know?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And to show where you got things from? Were they
always on your case?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Not a lot? Back in the day. No, there was
no technology. When I went for the liquor license, I
had to go and be interviewed by the guy that
was in charge of that. He was an attain who
spoke broken English and the Batam. He said to me,
have you killed anyone in the past six months? I
said it was joking, I said, I said, no, you guys,
(17:08):
granted I'm not even joking. That's how easy it was.
Hell yeah, now, good luck.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Okay, we're going to get I want to I want
to talk about because you just you brought your brother
up and that and I've seen that there was a
there was a few cutouts in the papers that back
in the nineties, nineteen nineties that you were convicted for
Victoria's largest heroin bust back then.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah. Now, back then it was huge. Yeah, that's one
point five killers. There was significant back then.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
What made you get into that? Like into that did?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Was just money? You wanted to make dollars? What was
it now?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I was fighting in Hong Kong and before I landed,
I was sick as I took off, and I think
the altitude name me really really out well by the
time I landed and I was staying with my Grandmaster,
who was head of the triads back the Yeah, very
significant person, and they because I was sweating and shivering,
I thought I was a heroin addict and the awfered
me heroin. So when I came back to Melbourne, I
was with the boys saying why I couldn't fight and
told the story just as I told you. One of
(18:08):
them popped up, So can you get some? I said,
I don't know, I'll ask, So next time my tongue,
I asked, And then I get a phone call A
few months later someone was pounds. It wasn't leaving Killows
had a pound and he had a price, and I
told him. He said, yes, I got it, and I
gave it to him. I'd never been exposed to drugs
prior to that. I mean, I knew that naughty, yeah,
(18:28):
but I didn't appreciate the significance of how bad they
were and the actual consequences. Plus you, now, I thought
you if you caught red handed and didn't understand this
whole conspiracy ship. So I packed it in, fucked off
the perth, I board the club went away from that ship.
But apparently there's not enough. Do you ever regret that
(18:50):
packing it in?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I don't know what would have happened if I wasn't
exposed to it. Like it's a That really was the
beginning of my success financially, and it was a huge
learning curve for me, and even being incarcerated, I learned
a lot being in jail. So I regret the actions
of my crime, but you know, the consequences being in
jail ten yures. Now, couldn't you a fact? Like, it's
just it's just life. We're still alive, We're still doing ship.
(19:14):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Going back to jail, Like, what was it?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
How?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
How was that going in for the when you first
went into jail? How was that for you? You're you're working
your way up to be somebody and you ask somebody.
You're known on the streets, you're knowing it, where you're living.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Who you are.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
But to go into jail for the first time in
your life, how did that feel to you? It was
it scared? You give a fuck? Were you known as
you walked in? Were you greeted by people that you
mat in it? How? What was the time like in
it for the first time you went in?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, like the fucking welcoming reception When I got there,
it was a big It was a big deal. There's
a lot of news coverage, and like I said, Coburger
metz Or, most of the tenants were from my area,
so I knew a lot of people that was in jail.
I wasn't scared. There's nothing to be scared of unless
you're a fuck with You really have nothing to fear
(20:04):
carry self, well, mind your own business. Don't have to
fear with anyone's business. You're going to be okay. But
you know, if you're an idiot, you're going to fall
into a whole. But no, I was it definitely wasn't scared.
I was a bit frustrated. Look, this is the thing.
You don't have time to feel sorry for yourself or
to worry about shit. You've got a big battle ahead
of you. It's you against them, the public prosecution, and
(20:27):
you have to sort through all your fucking paperwork, which
was mine was tenfolders. It was ridiculous, right, So you
just focused on the battle ahead of you. Yeah, Jael's cool,
man like, it's not cool, but it's a reflection on
society with blokes. You have a laugh, your ege, you sleep,
your work, you get on with it like it's not
the end of the world.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
How did your parents react to it?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah they were devastated, of course, but I mean they're
called that their reaction there is a reflection of my reaction.
As long as I was cool, they were cool, It
was okay. The screws were fucking terrified of us, rightly, so,
so they get greeted with respect. They were never disrespected,
and it was all good. If they ever played up
(21:10):
they got We went on with it inside and outside,
and they fucking knew that. We didn't interfere with anyone.
There's nothing to run, bro, you have problems with people,
you sort them out. You know what is there to run?
Unless you're fucking trafficking in jail, which I was not.
What is that to fucking run? Yeah? The objective he has
to get through every day without being cut. That's it.
(21:32):
There's lots of crews. There's this handful of proper alpha
men and they all mind their own business. The rest
of the little fucking runners go stab that come. I
get that.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So when you when you got when you got out,
what was your objective when you got out?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Make money? Money's power. I was very lucky when I
got out. Within weeks, I got a phone call from
It's like a gift from God. I got a phone
call from some company saying that we go through dormant
companies that have been forgotten and when they have assets
in them, for a fee, we'll recover them for you
a spy, and then you're the director of this company.
(22:10):
I said, yeah, I am. They said well, that's a
significant amount of money there, which like has to recovered us. Yes,
I would, and I did, and I already had a
few hundred thousand dollars off the bat and from there
a friend of mine from Perth, Charlie Jiglio and Jack
Regal had secured the tour of Andrea per Chari the
first time in Australia, the blind oper singer. Yeah, muked
(22:31):
to the conductor and tea a la scala at the ballet.
But before they would sign contracts, they wanted to tour
the country to check out the hotels and the venues
I think predominantly for Andre. And then needed eighty grand
and Charlie said, would you be interested? I like Charlie,
Charlie is as honest as the day is long. I
said sure, he said, but it's not guaranteed. That's no problem.
(22:52):
So I transferred to eighty thousand. They did their business
and we secured the tour. Then we on sold that
to IMG because it was too big for us, too
big for them, Yeah, and we retained thirty three percent
or thirty six percent, so I retained twelve percent. And
then they did the tours very successful, and then Jack
regally attain ran off with the money to Monte Carlo.
(23:12):
I check you right, fucking hell, you have the bulls
to do that. No, I got it, well, you got it.
Of course he was going nowhere. I jumped on the plane.
When we first had to deal with imj we recovered.
I recovered the money that I invested, everyone had recovered instantly,
(23:34):
and then the profit share he took he ran away with.
So I said to Charlie, we're in Jack and tell
him I've got a couple of men that I want
to put the park somewhere. I had to flush him
out discount and to book my hotel. I'm coming over
to Monte Carlo, I said, yeah, So he did. So
I flew in there and he had two bodyguards and
attained an English guy and they buckled really quick. So
(23:59):
he got a big smack and then he disappeared. When
I got his English bodyguard to take me to his house,
and I jumped the fence, broke in, checked it all out.
He wasn't there, just you know, a little map, bedroom, kitchen,
excess entries, weapons in and out, the usual ship. They're
not going to take me up the road to like
a store, to get a taser, a knife, some gaffe tape, right.
(24:24):
I knew he was going to report to Jack. And
then I get a phone call from New York from
another retain, Sam bar. He's invested, We've got a lot
of money and tied up with his caunt. He really
can't do what you're going to do. I said, yes,
I can. I guess can you just wait until tomorrow.
I'm going to fry in. This is Peter. Yeah. So
Peter flew in and we had a chat and he
(24:46):
he said he'll pay it. I said, he shure, Pete.
I was like, no, will pay it? I said, but committee,
he must pay it. Here's no fucking around him. I'm
not leaving without my money. He has now will paid
come to Perth next week. He's from Perth and before
and he did. So I went to Perth and got paid.
That's you know that story? What hell? But you say
(25:07):
what I did there? That was theater. I was never
going to kill him. I wasn't gonna do job for
this camp. Who was theater for the bodyguard. I knew
the bodyguard is going to report the camp and I
was very serious about it. And that's very aggressive.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Did you always go alone.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, always around solid. You did not have to get
rid of any witnesses. So I was very aggressive, very sincere.
You know, a lot of it was theater, So I
knew he was going to report back to this count.
He was going to assumemself either it was going to pay,
who was going to fucking pay? Or never come back again.
And that's how I got my result in that particular instance.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
How do you know what you're getting yourself into. If
you're going over to another country, or you going to
find someone you don't know who's there, you just you
do you stake out you just know them, or you're
just you're going by instin I knew.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I was surprised you had two bodyguards, to be honest
to do but it's such a flop his bodyguards or
flops as well. But you know, you just got I
knew my environment. I had a fair understanding of what
I was getting into, and my capacity back then was
far superior to their. You know, I lived in the
jungle for ten years, but you know, I know how
to get it on. I don't know what to look for.
(26:10):
I know how to turn nothing into a weapon. So
if anyone was gonna have a problem. Would have been
damned not me.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Tell me about the time you came to because I
had a little giggle when I've seen this one when
he came to Double Bai and there's a security contract
off for grabs.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yes, I get a call from kids on I think
there was a big fight on in said at the time,
he said this a couple of boys whenever chat listen
nearing that problem, and it was twenty five John B
mcanty and Copper. I'd rudge them made if there was.
If we were being watched, that was a very colorful table.
So I had no idea what I was going to
getting into. So I had another guy with me. I
(26:49):
had dropped me here and stay here. But you can
see the line aside, and he was toold up obviously.
I said, if I start scratching my head, just coming
shooting right, and.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I for sure you yeah, yeah, if.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I scratched my head, that made just guns involved on
my arms. I just come in and just wave that
around and lit if you're going out, and then we'll
work it out as we go. So he stayed, he
sat off and just watched. Anyway, so we get there
meet great. I didn't know any of those guys except
for John. I had met Troy before. Actually, when I
first got out of jail, I was in Perth with
Gregory Roberts and they threw a knight on for us.
(27:21):
He was he was only a non back then before
he grew the ranks, and he ran the ball for
him a lot. You know. It turned out there was
all they just because we're gonna havepen up Strip club
in Queensland and they ran they ran security there and
they want to know if that they can get the security.
We didn't. We didn't end up taking it. We're going
to buy one there and turn into a spermit rhiner.
(27:43):
We had the one in Melbourne. I was involved in
the one in Melbourne. I took that.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Is there anything you haven't taken?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
That rude? But you got to can't be disrespectful. And
I think you come in my fucking world and carry
like a count, you're gonna get treated like a count.
I didn't treat them like account They treated men like
a count. So come in here we go. So they
to pay him and I had cans ringing me. I
was in London one day the count NaN's fucking Lamborghini
and Melbourne is a fucking coronk brang me, he said.
(28:12):
At the club, he told the girls to look after me.
I said yes, so they put him on. I said,
he's not about bloke, you know, so I just don't
rape him too much sort of thing. So I came
back to Melbourne. The girls go bas your for he gels,
I said, I was in the acquaints, I said, because
he was, So what do you mean? He said, you're
a tire kicker or this or that. Ah took me
(28:34):
three years to find him. I was driving down the
street in Chapel Street. I thought about him a lot,
but I'm not even joking. But I wasn't going to
get Hi my way. And there he was standing on
the fucking corner right. So I've pulled into the side street.
I said, bro come up here, here are you going?
He gets good, cracked him on the jaw, mate, broke
his fucking jaw, just left him there, dropped in the
(28:57):
counter buff Two years later, one of our supporters bought
a Lamborghini from him and they were folding and you've
given him like a roundred thousand deposits and he was
getting it back. I said, call and put me on
the phone. I put him on the phone. I said,
your fucking Doug. He paid straight away. But the point
is he came. He came to me. I didn't ring him.
(29:17):
He rang me. He said, can you sort this out?
And then he went about so you're in my world now,
I count This is how we fucking deal with things,
same as spiermat Rhino. They came to Victoria. They bought
a club of two brothers that were incarcerated. Inn't pay
him the last three hundred grand, which was fine. And
I was at the back in the lane way with
(29:38):
a couple of boys and I'm a friend of mine
just got out of child who was incarcerated with me.
Gary Lewer, world champion bodybuilder, champion bloke. He was looking
for me, I said, I met the rhine. I said.
He walked in there and he went to the office
and asked for me, and then he came. He found me,
and he was a bit he was really uneasy. I said,
what's wrong, Gary? Because I know nothing, I said, but
there's clearly something wrong. Is there something on your mind?
(29:59):
Like you look a little upset? He said, I'm just
not we just got out of jail. Because I'm just
not used people speaking about you in that manner he
was in maximum. He was im panted with me. When
Pendroit was closing, I was the last one on the bus,
and he saw how I rolled screws and fucking business
bro Like, I ran that shit up. I said, what
(30:19):
do you mean? He goes, Oh, they were just a
bit you know. I just didn't like how they spoke.
I said, not worry about it, bro, They're just fucking civilians.
But I made a mental note, and then I started
watching him and they were getting a bit cute. So
that following Friday, the principal owner was coming into town, right,
and I've been looking after these because the Crown Caserno.
(30:40):
I asked BE to look after him, and I said,
come to my restaurant for lunch. So I'd already pre
planned to lunch Friday morning, I said. The boys enter
the club, pistol whip the manager, the one that checkie
count and the part owner and told the whole place
upside down as you do, right, they fucking shit, Who
are they going to get to? They can show to
me right, they're in my world now. So I saw
(31:04):
that problem out took them to the I couldn't believe it,
I said, I said, I go to see the blakes.
They said, we want to come, said right, not the
one that got pissed a p himself for John Gray. Yeah,
he's a bit ballsy. It's got some dashes count. So
we took him away to fucking Jadnung tooled up. Get there,
lock it pulled off my jewelry theater. We go in
(31:26):
there and there's like ten blokes, serious fucking men, and
we was a throw off. The throw off was the
consider and jar haven't been paid there three hundred grand.
You feel me, right, I said, they'll get their money.
When they get their money, this counts with me. Fuck
off and they fucked off. So on the way back
for a lot of silence, Okay, what about this percentage
by because how point of this is our best to
(31:48):
buy into the fucking joint? Because yeah, yeah, we've thought
I'm going to we want you involved, he said, but
we don't want any money. We're going to pay for it.
So it was a gift. You see what I'm saying
the point of this is they've come to me for
help and they want to pay like cunts. So they
get you out of like cunts. And then I wrapped
them for the next seven fucking years. Boyeah, fair enough.
(32:11):
I don't see anything wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Oh no, definitely not.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
With all this going on in your life now, and
you said that, you know you joined the Mossoun. What
made you get out?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
It was I had two young children, both going to
private school, and I was in the paper so often
anything that happened in Victoria that put a picture of me,
horrible picture photoshops that have my name in headlines, and
then they'd referred to me somewhere in the title, but
it had nothing to do with me. So I was
getting so much negative press that became a problem for
(32:41):
my kids. My kids have been nice stated at school,
they've been invited to parties. Parents are a bit fucking nervous,
and rightly so. In fact, they were they rallying bring
out back to try and get the kids expelled from
the school. So it became a personal problem for my
personal life. And if you're going to choose family or
bike World, I always choose family. So I thought it
was a good time. I'd ground the club to four chapters,
(33:02):
and there was nothing in Victoria that my number two
was ready to take over. It wasn't an overnight decision.
We've been discussing this for like six eight months. I
don't really know to find the hierarchy that I'm going
to exit. Shortly, everyone was cool with it and we
just transitioned. It was time. Look, I did it for
two years. It was a lot of fun, but it
became too noisy for me personally, too noisy, So it
(33:25):
was time to exit.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Didn't miss it, or it took you a while to
get you sweet, or you were like you I were.
You were ready for it, you were ready to get out.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I wasn't absorbed by the whole thing. It was just
like it was a you know, we do our weekly meetings,
organize our runs. We catch up once every month for
a ride, barely, and it wasn't like it wasn't it
wasn't the whole lifestyle that we did committ one hundred
percent of our time to all My members were you
(33:54):
fathers and employed, so we can really afford to be
in the club all the time and around the club
all the time. So for me, exident the club made
no real difference to me. I still had my associations
that I kept.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
No, Look, everything's a learning curve. Oh my mistakes of
I'll hope I've learned from But yeah, you know, we
this is our life. We choose the part that we
choose and we do our best. Some things work out,
some don't. Befall, have you touch stuff off, you keep
plowing that you get back up.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
What would you describe yourself in one.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Wad or two ways?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I'll give you now or then, well.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Let's go with both.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Let's see, let's see the change in this.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Well back then when I was, when I was arrested,
I would say I would be that county you'd fucking
hate if I if I knew him, I would love
like him at arrogant cocky thinks he knows everything. They
just want to punch him. Now, a lot more settled
I've been. I've got experience. I have a lot more empathy.
I understand when I do something that's a result or
(35:03):
a consequence, and you know, you try and be a
bit more respect for other people's time and space. You know,
I'm bomb one with you now you.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Were What's so? What's what's what's the thing now for you?
In the future? What what? What? What's your plans?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm still going but I haven't stopped.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Because you brought the book out.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, the book's entertainment. Yeah, yeah, we did that. But
I did that because I had I've been a time
on my hands. I was stuck on the couch for
a couple of years, so pushed out a book. No
TV thing, possibly TV. Can't say too much, but you
know it's it's generating a lot of interest. I'll just
say that.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
But you're happy with yourself now.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You're settled and mature now, as you said, so, you've
you're happy with the way things are going in life now.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I've always been happy. I've never been unhappy. Right, Everything
is good. I like a bit of excitement. Everyone likes
a bit of excitement. Man, things interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, thanks for coming on, sure, but I'm grateful for
your time today, and I'm glad you came on to
show your story.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Thanks so much, appreciate it. H
Approache Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am
Neil the Muscle comments and in this episode I speak
with former Underweld figure and standover man Jay mal Kuhn.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We preferred not to kill you. We will do it,
but we won't be happy about it. But you know
the consequences being in jail to you, I said, committee,
you must pay. It isn't a fucking around him. I'm
not leaving without my money. But to get a taser
and knife, some gaffer tape, and I had to turn
nothing into a weapon. So if anyone was going to
(00:42):
have a problem, that would have been there, not me.
There's nothing more rewarded than not in some.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Jay, thank you for coming in.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Thanks having me when I when I seen your book
come out, I wanted to approach you, and I thought
I'd let you do your thing first because you are
promoting it and I'm glad. I was reached out by
one of your friends and he wanted to get me
to get you on my show, and I was.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was keen as to get you on. But we'll
start off.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
With you as a person before all all the heavy
ship that happened, but you growing up and tell me
about you, and then we'll get into the nitty gritty
of everything.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Oh it's not that exciting, believe me, it will be.
But you know, we grew up in the housing commision area.
All the parents were all the kids were left to
run a mark. Most families had four to six to
ten kids, predominantly boys, and I know we all played up.
(01:44):
I wasn't any I wasn't unique. I was just one
of many. I used to have to run home when
I was younger to avoid getting bashed. So I discovered
that you can bash back. Wow. Yeah, And it happened
one day. There were two of us running and avoid
a little gang, and he got left behind. Go on.
I think that must have been about nine. So I
(02:05):
ran back and picked up it. They used to have
house These have trees in front of every home, and
these pickets told them together and there was one lane
on the ground. So I just slipped that up and
fucking attacked him with it. I got an amazing response.
They shot himselves and around. I discovered that you can
fight back.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, it was great, very liberating.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
What did you grow?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Reservoir? Patridge Prison was full of kids from Reservoir and
Coburg literally full of them. Valley Street, Winter Crescent was
all always banging on. You know. My dad used to
stand at the front of the at that gate, waiting
for us to come home, to see if we had
fights and torn clothes and bloodied and if we were
(02:49):
we were in trouble. If we came home normal, we
were okay. He didn't like, he didn't condone us playing up.
But no, it was just it was just the environment
schooling for you. I struggled. I started when I went
to school when I started schooling and speak English, so
I struggled, always struggled. But I mean I enjoyed it.
I went to every class even though I couldn't really
read well, I'd still stood up in the class and
(03:09):
did my best. I was never embarrassed to humiliated. I
just did my best. I guess I didn't know any better.
What was it?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
What was your goal when your left school?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
What did you want?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To be a policeman?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Really?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Fuck me?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah that doesn't saying around.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah No, I actually applied to be a cup when
I was seventeen and I couldn't fill up the phone properly,
so I was rejected.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So that's that's all stopped you. Otherwise would have been
a cop.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Probably would have been a crup cup. That would have
been a cop. I would have fucked that ship up right,
give me your money, don't tell me.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
One fucked up. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No, I don't know. It's a vass. But that was
actually my first application. It was like the when when
you were at that age, there wasn't many options. Was
if you're academically not right, you can't you know, you're
not going to be an accountant or a lawyer, or
you're they're going to drive a fucking bus or apply
for something that you may you maybe be good at.
So I thought just trying the police force that I
think I was just seventeen at the time. That paperwork,
(04:05):
and I was promptly rejected, and.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
You didn't want to apply again. You just forgot it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That Nah, that was just tick that box and move on.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Is that was that what you thought after that?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Not at all? Look, I never I was. I was
really a good kid mate like became My parents were
really good without religious people and right from wrong and
don't steal and don't take what's not your usual. That
was that's how we all were. Yeah, I fell into
crime because I just did you know, it happened to
be at the right place or the wrong place at
(04:35):
the right time, at the wrong time, and I made
a decision. I went that way.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
How how did your parents feel when they when they
know that you were involved in the underworld and that
kind of stuff, did they did they change towards you?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
No? No, they didn't know you kept a secret phone.
It wasn't It wasn't a regular activity. It was very rare.
It wasn't like, but.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Where do we get around that?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
What you know, what your son's doing? This is who
your son's hanging around with?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
That there wasn't. I wasn't hanging out with anyone. I
was hooked in with the triads. Rides were overseas. My
contacts were in Sydney. I lived in Melbourne. I drove
lumpy cars. Because I developed a property at the edge
of twenty, I entus strayed at twenty one. I I
validated what I was my spending. I justified it so sweet.
(05:20):
I was a little fucking on entrepreneur. My parents are
very proud.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So okay, so you've got them back from police. So
what what? What was your next line to go down? Where
did you go from me?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
At that time I was I had started doing training
take one day, at the edge of five. We were
like they were the Bruce Ley days. Me and the
rest of the world were taken about Bruce Ley. We
all wanted to be Bruce Lay. I wanted to be
band Wow. Yeah, of course younger than me. That So
when I was sixth day and I met the Lacey brothers.
(05:57):
There were twin brothers from Hong Kong and they had
an academy in Perth. They wanted to open up in
Melbourne and somebody introduced me to them. We started training
in the park every day. So at that age I
was right into martial arts and I was training to
fight in the sixth International Martial Arts Invitation Tournament in Macau,
so that that totally consumed me. So we did that.
(06:19):
That's when I when I turned Just before I turned
out in there was a bit of a hiccup with
a gun and some lebows and some bouncers that I diffused.
Just that I just happened to be there and the
security offered me a job and so I started doing
store work, which was great. Yourself, there's nothing more rewarding
than looking some catch out.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I usually go to work to hope and I was
going to knock somebody up. That's what you used to
go to work for it. It was like he'll give
you a high.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
You know what I mean, You're to be trouble.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I loved it. I was like, fuck girls and fucking
comes out. I'd go home and play in bed under
we live it in my head. I did by public.
I worked at very rough places, so it was on
all night. It would be fucking You'd have at least
three or four dust ups, probably be up to eight.
And it was really good. We loved it. And I
(07:08):
worked with really good blokes, really good solid blakes that
could bang it on.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, some working the How long did you went the doors.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
For until I discovered money? Eighten to twenty?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
So what came first?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
You like?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Did did the motorcycle game come first?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
After this? What came from? Where? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Now? The minorcycle came way after this? Like we had
bouncing coat dealing person for ten years, got out, then
we had the underworld killings for about ten years. Then
I got hooked into some mining groups. Seen that has
some big problems. So it was resolving, and they they
kept me on full time and then we did the
(07:50):
biking stuff. I was up with them for five years
and then I jumped up with the commos. Yeah, well
I still looked after the mining goes.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
You went to the corporate world of money for what.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Okay, So this is what happened. A friend of mine
is in the book. He had a little problem with
some coffin cheatters in perth Yep. So he called me
up and said, ah, what do we do. I said,
let's get on a plane and go and see him. Brother.
So he rang out there mutual in Perth ye and
said we're coming in the morning, going to sort this
shit out because I wanted their way to break his
(08:24):
legs apparently and anyway, and then you know, I got
involved and it was diffused quite quickly, and he was
very he's very successful dude, and he's very willing too.
By the way, he didn't he didn't actually need me.
He could stand on his own two feed, but was
a lot easier with me. And he's back in this corner.
So from there he wanted me to go on tour
with him, because although the problem was solved, that wasn't
completely solved. He wanted to be close by, so we
(08:46):
went to London where we met his partner. His partner
had a similar problem with the coffin cheaters, but this
was a two hunch, a mean dollar problem, right, and
my mother may goes, well, let ja sort it out.
And this is my first exposure to this sort of money.
And these kinds were getting fucking drunk one hunter old
Scotch and to be honest that there wasn't paying that
(09:07):
much fucking attention. But you know, my mate said, let
him sort of that. He goes, oh, can he do it?
He goes, yeah, of course you can. And then my
mate asked me, got draw up a little one pager
saying for services as requested a million dollars cash or
US dollars and sixteen million shares and sixty men uppies
to resolve this issue. The shares were training at seventy
(09:30):
two cents at the time. It was about a seven
eight million dollars deal. Said quickly, taps up in the
business center, hands it to him. He fucking through it
out the window. He was drunk at The window was
a balcony, so my mate jumped out the window and
grabbed it and gave it back to him, so he
signed it and off he went. He transferred the me
into his account, which I saw part of. By the way,
(09:53):
he was getting half everything. And then I flew the
Perth and caught up with the cheats who are mate's
of mine, and another fellow over there, junk is On,
and we worked it out. It was all resolved. I
got paid.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So so now have you already got that reputation already
for who you you are?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well? The thing is, I was incarcerated in Pantridge for
ten years. It's a make some security for yeah. Out
of that ten years, I probably did nine months out
in other jails. They couldn't they couldn't have come at
me anywhere else. So I did have and know I
was known. I was known. You know, we did things.
(10:31):
You'd have to do things. You know, you got to
tool up and you gotta you can't sit on the fence.
If someone sucking around, you just have to put a
hold on them, you know how it is. Right, So
by the time I got out of prison, I was
very well known. So it was it wasn't hard for
me to get things, get people to agree or comply.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It's still not yeah, you still got that power.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
We do all right now.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
When you were in Penbridge jail, there is there is
a kind of quote there that you did some deal
with chop a read.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, it wasn't a deal. It was going to knock
some can some deal. It's just doing work, bro So
who you going to know? We're at war for about
seven years with a different team. And yeah, they come
and they go. When you can get your hands on him,
to get your hands on them. Like one particular time,
I was in another prison, another maximum security prison, and
one of them came back through the system, and I
(11:25):
had a friend of mine in that division. So I
rang my lawyer, the PA, I said, ring the prison
and ask him to give Lenny a message to call
this lawyer at one o'clock and give your number, which
she did, and then I drank at one o'clock and
she joined us, and I said, Lenny, this counts in
your division, broke and sort him out. So lennenly promptly
went and got a big fucking bit of steal and
(11:47):
ran in the cell and iron barred him. You get
shit done. This other count who was in the system,
but he was in Chopper's water h division can't get
to him, impossible to get to him. They get one
hour exercise a day. But I had a plan. I
wanted to muck this camp chopper gives him their milk
in their breakfasts and their food every day. He was
the billet so and I need the kitchen staff. So
(12:10):
we got some poison to put in the milk to
deliver to him. They can't have relied on to get
the poison. Got us a dad. So the whole thing
didn't work. But we did it. We actually we actually
did it. Just didn't work, you know as it well
as a way blood.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, So the times that you've been in there, the
likes of like Chop I Red. You just spoke about
Carl when he was in the mccallo. Were you around
it and when all the all the ship was happening
at that time in Melbourne or you were you out
of there and doing other things?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We mean when they're all the births getting knocked. Yeah,
but that was the ti tat thing going on. But
didn't involve you, No, No, he kept out of it. Well,
nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, if you didn't get no one tried to draw
you in.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
I look someone asked me to do something, to get involved,
but I knew both sides. Yeah, so I just stayed
sat on the fence, but not my business. I knew
a lot of those guys that were and we're good blogs,
I mean most of them. But that is what it is.
You know, you live by the swords.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
You've seen Sydney and you've seen Melbourne. You've been probably
over states too. Who do you think I'm gonna I'm
gonna say this the real deal, the real you've got.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
You've got a lot of.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Underworld in different states here, all right, who's the real deal?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
This is a tricky question because anyone could pay someone
of these unber.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah I understand that, but but that But you know,
you see what's going on in Melbourne, you see what's
going on Sydney. You can see what goes on in
over States. But you know, I look at it and
go like, fuck, Melbourne's.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Pretty harsh, you know what I mean, We bang it on,
bang it on here. I mean they're very quick to
react here. If I have to compare, i'd say Sydney
more reactive, definitely, most Like they don't fuck around here
in Melbourne. Nine times out of tennant can be resolved
again is probably the last option. But here they're just
sure they don't fuck around here.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
But you think you think, you think the old school
system's gone.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Now everything evolves, you know, we've gone from black and
white to color. Yeah, everything evolves even now, Like the
amount of money evolved is massive as the how do
you resist that? Yeah, the earth of these young guys
that are you know, come from not much offered a
men or two to do it quicker, and I mean
it's very hard to and all these kids are willing
(14:27):
for some real I think all this exposure to the
Internet and all this exposure of violence on your phone,
they're sort of numbing people to consequences and the reality
of what's going on. I was never exposed to that,
so I can't imagine what this youth are going through
and how they're dealing with it. I suppose you they
embrace it where you shy away from it. But Sydney
is definitely a very serious date. I'd have to say,
(14:50):
if you're going to compare to answer that question, the
real the realer deal would have to be Sydney. You
go to the Winners West. We admit it. We prefer
not to kill you. We will do it. We won't
be happy about it.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
You also liked God Honor.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah. Yeah, my first club when I was twenty twenty
three was that I loved it a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Was it just that, I think at the time to
get into the night life scene or would you not
get into it now?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
No, the thing was because I started security today changing anything.
I actually knew anything. I understood well, I understood the door,
comparing it under there was money out of the bar,
and you could make money from night club so I'd
worked in them for a couple of years, so there
was a natural progression for us. And it wasn't it.
I wasn't just me as my brothers and we all
chipped in. We didn't have It wasn't big money. It
was like us eighty ninety thousand dollars for a club.
(15:46):
We spent about fifty renovating it. But back then it
was a lot of money, but not like here now
now you couldn't even get a fucking front door for
that money. But for us it was good. I mean,
like you have to appreciate we didn't come from anything.
We had no money, so to have a couple hundred
grand was significant when we worked. But we worked hard
even after I played for eighteen months two years on
(16:08):
occasion whenever was available. We didn't We didn't make millions
of dollars. We made money, but then we worked that
money and made more money. So I'm saying that I
told you earlier. I owned the street. I used my
forty thousand dollars that I earned as a deposit, and
I pre sold some of the sales some of the
land to develop it, and that's how and then I
sold some wine paid the remainderud and that's how I
(16:31):
developed it. I didn't go and pay five hundred thousand cash.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
But was it hard for you because of your name
not to get harassed by the police?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
You know?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
And to show where you got things from? Were they
always on your case?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Not a lot? Back in the day. No, there was
no technology. When I went for the liquor license, I
had to go and be interviewed by the guy that
was in charge of that. He was an attain who
spoke broken English and the Batam. He said to me,
have you killed anyone in the past six months? I
said it was joking, I said, I said, no, you guys,
(17:08):
granted I'm not even joking. That's how easy it was.
Hell yeah, now, good luck.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Okay, we're going to get I want to I want
to talk about because you just you brought your brother
up and that and I've seen that there was a
there was a few cutouts in the papers that back
in the nineties, nineteen nineties that you were convicted for
Victoria's largest heroin bust back then.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah. Now, back then it was huge. Yeah, that's one
point five killers. There was significant back then.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
What made you get into that? Like into that did?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Was just money? You wanted to make dollars? What was
it now?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I was fighting in Hong Kong and before I landed,
I was sick as I took off, and I think
the altitude name me really really out well by the
time I landed and I was staying with my Grandmaster,
who was head of the triads back the Yeah, very
significant person, and they because I was sweating and shivering,
I thought I was a heroin addict and the awfered
me heroin. So when I came back to Melbourne, I
was with the boys saying why I couldn't fight and
told the story just as I told you. One of
(18:08):
them popped up, So can you get some? I said,
I don't know, I'll ask, So next time my tongue,
I asked, And then I get a phone call A
few months later someone was pounds. It wasn't leaving Killows
had a pound and he had a price, and I
told him. He said, yes, I got it, and I
gave it to him. I'd never been exposed to drugs
prior to that. I mean, I knew that naughty, yeah,
(18:28):
but I didn't appreciate the significance of how bad they
were and the actual consequences. Plus you, now, I thought
you if you caught red handed and didn't understand this
whole conspiracy ship. So I packed it in, fucked off
the perth, I board the club went away from that ship.
But apparently there's not enough. Do you ever regret that
(18:50):
packing it in?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I don't know what would have happened if I wasn't
exposed to it. Like it's a That really was the
beginning of my success financially, and it was a huge
learning curve for me, and even being incarcerated, I learned
a lot being in jail. So I regret the actions
of my crime, but you know, the consequences being in
jail ten yures. Now, couldn't you a fact? Like, it's
just it's just life. We're still alive, We're still doing ship.
(19:14):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Going back to jail, Like, what was it?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
How?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
How was that going in for the when you first
went into jail? How was that for you? You're you're working
your way up to be somebody and you ask somebody.
You're known on the streets, you're knowing it, where you're living.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Who you are.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
But to go into jail for the first time in
your life, how did that feel to you? It was
it scared? You give a fuck? Were you known as
you walked in? Were you greeted by people that you
mat in it? How? What was the time like in
it for the first time you went in?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, like the fucking welcoming reception When I got there,
it was a big It was a big deal. There's
a lot of news coverage, and like I said, Coburger
metz Or, most of the tenants were from my area,
so I knew a lot of people that was in jail.
I wasn't scared. There's nothing to be scared of unless
you're a fuck with You really have nothing to fear
(20:04):
carry self, well, mind your own business. Don't have to
fear with anyone's business. You're going to be okay. But
you know, if you're an idiot, you're going to fall
into a whole. But no, I was it definitely wasn't scared.
I was a bit frustrated. Look, this is the thing.
You don't have time to feel sorry for yourself or
to worry about shit. You've got a big battle ahead
of you. It's you against them, the public prosecution, and
(20:27):
you have to sort through all your fucking paperwork, which
was mine was tenfolders. It was ridiculous, right, So you
just focused on the battle ahead of you. Yeah, Jael's cool,
man like, it's not cool, but it's a reflection on
society with blokes. You have a laugh, your ege, you sleep,
your work, you get on with it like it's not
the end of the world.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
How did your parents react to it?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah they were devastated, of course, but I mean they're
called that their reaction there is a reflection of my reaction.
As long as I was cool, they were cool, It
was okay. The screws were fucking terrified of us, rightly, so,
so they get greeted with respect. They were never disrespected,
and it was all good. If they ever played up
(21:10):
they got We went on with it inside and outside,
and they fucking knew that. We didn't interfere with anyone.
There's nothing to run, bro, you have problems with people,
you sort them out. You know what is there to run?
Unless you're fucking trafficking in jail, which I was not.
What is that to fucking run? Yeah? The objective he has
to get through every day without being cut. That's it.
(21:32):
There's lots of crews. There's this handful of proper alpha
men and they all mind their own business. The rest
of the little fucking runners go stab that come. I
get that.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So when you when you got when you got out,
what was your objective when you got out?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Make money? Money's power. I was very lucky when I
got out. Within weeks, I got a phone call from
It's like a gift from God. I got a phone
call from some company saying that we go through dormant
companies that have been forgotten and when they have assets
in them, for a fee, we'll recover them for you
a spy, and then you're the director of this company.
(22:10):
I said, yeah, I am. They said well, that's a
significant amount of money there, which like has to recovered us. Yes,
I would, and I did, and I already had a
few hundred thousand dollars off the bat and from there
a friend of mine from Perth, Charlie Jiglio and Jack
Regal had secured the tour of Andrea per Chari the
first time in Australia, the blind oper singer. Yeah, muked
(22:31):
to the conductor and tea a la scala at the ballet.
But before they would sign contracts, they wanted to tour
the country to check out the hotels and the venues
I think predominantly for Andre. And then needed eighty grand
and Charlie said, would you be interested? I like Charlie,
Charlie is as honest as the day is long. I
said sure, he said, but it's not guaranteed. That's no problem.
(22:52):
So I transferred to eighty thousand. They did their business
and we secured the tour. Then we on sold that
to IMG because it was too big for us, too
big for them, Yeah, and we retained thirty three percent
or thirty six percent, so I retained twelve percent. And
then they did the tours very successful, and then Jack
regally attain ran off with the money to Monte Carlo.
(23:12):
I check you right, fucking hell, you have the bulls
to do that. No, I got it, well, you got it.
Of course he was going nowhere. I jumped on the plane.
When we first had to deal with imj we recovered.
I recovered the money that I invested, everyone had recovered instantly,
(23:34):
and then the profit share he took he ran away with.
So I said to Charlie, we're in Jack and tell
him I've got a couple of men that I want
to put the park somewhere. I had to flush him
out discount and to book my hotel. I'm coming over
to Monte Carlo, I said, yeah, So he did. So
I flew in there and he had two bodyguards and
attained an English guy and they buckled really quick. So
(23:59):
he got a big smack and then he disappeared. When
I got his English bodyguard to take me to his house,
and I jumped the fence, broke in, checked it all out.
He wasn't there, just you know, a little map, bedroom, kitchen,
excess entries, weapons in and out, the usual ship. They're
not going to take me up the road to like
a store, to get a taser, a knife, some gaffe tape, right.
(24:24):
I knew he was going to report to Jack. And
then I get a phone call from New York from
another retain, Sam bar. He's invested, We've got a lot
of money and tied up with his caunt. He really
can't do what you're going to do. I said, yes,
I can. I guess can you just wait until tomorrow.
I'm going to fry in. This is Peter. Yeah. So
Peter flew in and we had a chat and he
(24:46):
he said he'll pay it. I said, he shure, Pete.
I was like, no, will pay it? I said, but committee,
he must pay it. Here's no fucking around him. I'm
not leaving without my money. He has now will paid
come to Perth next week. He's from Perth and before
and he did. So I went to Perth and got paid.
That's you know that story? What hell? But you say
(25:07):
what I did there? That was theater. I was never
going to kill him. I wasn't gonna do job for
this camp. Who was theater for the bodyguard. I knew
the bodyguard is going to report the camp and I
was very serious about it. And that's very aggressive.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Did you always go alone.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, always around solid. You did not have to get
rid of any witnesses. So I was very aggressive, very sincere.
You know, a lot of it was theater, So I
knew he was going to report back to this count.
He was going to assumemself either it was going to pay,
who was going to fucking pay? Or never come back again.
And that's how I got my result in that particular instance.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
How do you know what you're getting yourself into. If
you're going over to another country, or you going to
find someone you don't know who's there, you just you
do you stake out you just know them, or you're
just you're going by instin I knew.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I was surprised you had two bodyguards, to be honest
to do but it's such a flop his bodyguards or
flops as well. But you know, you just got I
knew my environment. I had a fair understanding of what
I was getting into, and my capacity back then was
far superior to their. You know, I lived in the
jungle for ten years, but you know, I know how
to get it on. I don't know what to look for.
(26:10):
I know how to turn nothing into a weapon. So
if anyone was gonna have a problem. Would have been
damned not me.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Tell me about the time you came to because I
had a little giggle when I've seen this one when
he came to Double Bai and there's a security contract
off for grabs.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yes, I get a call from kids on I think
there was a big fight on in said at the time,
he said this a couple of boys whenever chat listen
nearing that problem, and it was twenty five John B
mcanty and Copper. I'd rudge them made if there was.
If we were being watched, that was a very colorful table.
So I had no idea what I was going to
getting into. So I had another guy with me. I
(26:49):
had dropped me here and stay here. But you can
see the line aside, and he was toold up obviously.
I said, if I start scratching my head, just coming
shooting right, and.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I for sure you yeah, yeah, if.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I scratched my head, that made just guns involved on
my arms. I just come in and just wave that
around and lit if you're going out, and then we'll
work it out as we go. So he stayed, he
sat off and just watched. Anyway, so we get there
meet great. I didn't know any of those guys except
for John. I had met Troy before. Actually, when I
first got out of jail, I was in Perth with
Gregory Roberts and they threw a knight on for us.
(27:21):
He was he was only a non back then before
he grew the ranks, and he ran the ball for
him a lot. You know. It turned out there was
all they just because we're gonna havepen up Strip club
in Queensland and they ran they ran security there and
they want to know if that they can get the security.
We didn't. We didn't end up taking it. We're going
to buy one there and turn into a spermit rhiner.
(27:43):
We had the one in Melbourne. I was involved in
the one in Melbourne. I took that.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Is there anything you haven't taken?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
That rude? But you got to can't be disrespectful. And
I think you come in my fucking world and carry
like a count, you're gonna get treated like a count.
I didn't treat them like account They treated men like
a count. So come in here we go. So they
to pay him and I had cans ringing me. I
was in London one day the count NaN's fucking Lamborghini
and Melbourne is a fucking coronk brang me, he said.
(28:12):
At the club, he told the girls to look after me.
I said yes, so they put him on. I said,
he's not about bloke, you know, so I just don't
rape him too much sort of thing. So I came
back to Melbourne. The girls go bas your for he gels,
I said, I was in the acquaints, I said, because
he was, So what do you mean? He said, you're
a tire kicker or this or that. Ah took me
(28:34):
three years to find him. I was driving down the
street in Chapel Street. I thought about him a lot,
but I'm not even joking. But I wasn't going to
get Hi my way. And there he was standing on
the fucking corner right. So I've pulled into the side street.
I said, bro come up here, here are you going?
He gets good, cracked him on the jaw, mate, broke
his fucking jaw, just left him there, dropped in the
(28:57):
counter buff Two years later, one of our supporters bought
a Lamborghini from him and they were folding and you've
given him like a roundred thousand deposits and he was
getting it back. I said, call and put me on
the phone. I put him on the phone. I said,
your fucking Doug. He paid straight away. But the point
is he came. He came to me. I didn't ring him.
(29:17):
He rang me. He said, can you sort this out?
And then he went about so you're in my world now,
I count This is how we fucking deal with things,
same as spiermat Rhino. They came to Victoria. They bought
a club of two brothers that were incarcerated. Inn't pay
him the last three hundred grand, which was fine. And
I was at the back in the lane way with
(29:38):
a couple of boys and I'm a friend of mine
just got out of child who was incarcerated with me.
Gary Lewer, world champion bodybuilder, champion bloke. He was looking
for me, I said, I met the rhine. I said.
He walked in there and he went to the office
and asked for me, and then he came. He found me,
and he was a bit he was really uneasy. I said,
what's wrong, Gary? Because I know nothing, I said, but
there's clearly something wrong. Is there something on your mind?
(29:59):
Like you look a little upset? He said, I'm just
not we just got out of jail. Because I'm just
not used people speaking about you in that manner he
was in maximum. He was im panted with me. When
Pendroit was closing, I was the last one on the bus,
and he saw how I rolled screws and fucking business
bro Like, I ran that shit up. I said, what
(30:19):
do you mean? He goes, Oh, they were just a
bit you know. I just didn't like how they spoke.
I said, not worry about it, bro, They're just fucking civilians.
But I made a mental note, and then I started
watching him and they were getting a bit cute. So
that following Friday, the principal owner was coming into town, right,
and I've been looking after these because the Crown Caserno.
(30:40):
I asked BE to look after him, and I said,
come to my restaurant for lunch. So I'd already pre
planned to lunch Friday morning, I said. The boys enter
the club, pistol whip the manager, the one that checkie
count and the part owner and told the whole place
upside down as you do, right, they fucking shit, Who
are they going to get to? They can show to
me right, they're in my world now. So I saw
(31:04):
that problem out took them to the I couldn't believe it,
I said, I said, I go to see the blakes.
They said, we want to come, said right, not the
one that got pissed a p himself for John Gray. Yeah,
he's a bit ballsy. It's got some dashes count. So
we took him away to fucking Jadnung tooled up. Get there,
lock it pulled off my jewelry theater. We go in
(31:26):
there and there's like ten blokes, serious fucking men, and
we was a throw off. The throw off was the
consider and jar haven't been paid there three hundred grand.
You feel me, right, I said, they'll get their money.
When they get their money, this counts with me. Fuck
off and they fucked off. So on the way back
for a lot of silence, Okay, what about this percentage
by because how point of this is our best to
(31:48):
buy into the fucking joint? Because yeah, yeah, we've thought
I'm going to we want you involved, he said, but
we don't want any money. We're going to pay for it.
So it was a gift. You see what I'm saying
the point of this is they've come to me for
help and they want to pay like cunts. So they
get you out of like cunts. And then I wrapped
them for the next seven fucking years. Boyeah, fair enough.
(32:11):
I don't see anything wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Oh no, definitely not.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
With all this going on in your life now, and
you said that, you know you joined the Mossoun. What
made you get out?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
It was I had two young children, both going to
private school, and I was in the paper so often
anything that happened in Victoria that put a picture of me,
horrible picture photoshops that have my name in headlines, and
then they'd referred to me somewhere in the title, but
it had nothing to do with me. So I was
getting so much negative press that became a problem for
(32:41):
my kids. My kids have been nice stated at school,
they've been invited to parties. Parents are a bit fucking nervous,
and rightly so. In fact, they were they rallying bring
out back to try and get the kids expelled from
the school. So it became a personal problem for my
personal life. And if you're going to choose family or
bike World, I always choose family. So I thought it
was a good time. I'd ground the club to four chapters,
(33:02):
and there was nothing in Victoria that my number two
was ready to take over. It wasn't an overnight decision.
We've been discussing this for like six eight months. I
don't really know to find the hierarchy that I'm going
to exit. Shortly, everyone was cool with it and we
just transitioned. It was time. Look, I did it for
two years. It was a lot of fun, but it
became too noisy for me personally, too noisy, So it
(33:25):
was time to exit.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Didn't miss it, or it took you a while to
get you sweet, or you were like you I were.
You were ready for it, you were ready to get out.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I wasn't absorbed by the whole thing. It was just
like it was a you know, we do our weekly meetings,
organize our runs. We catch up once every month for
a ride, barely, and it wasn't like it wasn't it
wasn't the whole lifestyle that we did committ one hundred
percent of our time to all My members were you
(33:54):
fathers and employed, so we can really afford to be
in the club all the time and around the club
all the time. So for me, exident the club made
no real difference to me. I still had my associations
that I kept.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
No, Look, everything's a learning curve. Oh my mistakes of
I'll hope I've learned from But yeah, you know, we
this is our life. We choose the part that we
choose and we do our best. Some things work out,
some don't. Befall, have you touch stuff off, you keep
plowing that you get back up.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
What would you describe yourself in one.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Wad or two ways?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
I'll give you now or then, well.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Let's go with both.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Let's see, let's see the change in this.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Well back then when I was, when I was arrested,
I would say I would be that county you'd fucking
hate if I if I knew him, I would love
like him at arrogant cocky thinks he knows everything. They
just want to punch him. Now, a lot more settled
I've been. I've got experience. I have a lot more empathy.
I understand when I do something that's a result or
(35:03):
a consequence, and you know, you try and be a
bit more respect for other people's time and space. You know,
I'm bomb one with you now you.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Were What's so? What's what's what's the thing now for you?
In the future? What what? What? What's your plans?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I'm still going but I haven't stopped.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Because you brought the book out.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, the book's entertainment. Yeah, yeah, we did that. But
I did that because I had I've been a time
on my hands. I was stuck on the couch for
a couple of years, so pushed out a book. No
TV thing, possibly TV. Can't say too much, but you
know it's it's generating a lot of interest. I'll just
say that.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
But you're happy with yourself now.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You're settled and mature now, as you said, so, you've
you're happy with the way things are going in life now.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I've always been happy. I've never been unhappy. Right, Everything
is good. I like a bit of excitement. Everyone likes
a bit of excitement. Man, things interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, thanks for coming on, sure, but I'm grateful for
your time today, and I'm glad you came on to
show your story.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Thanks so much, appreciate it. H
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