August 17, 2024 • 24 mins
Curious about how data centres are evolving and what it means for the future of tech? We promise you'll gain valuable insights as we sit down with Jason Gomersall, founder and chief executive director of iSeek. Jason shares his inspiring journey from the mobile phone industry to spearheading a groundbreaking data centre business. Learn about the pioneering deployment of water-cooled high-performance compute platforms in Queensland and how sustainability is reshaping the tech landscape. This episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone interested in the intersection of cutting-edge technology and eco-conscious innovation.
Ever wondered how data centres manage connectivity and power consumption in an era dominated by AI and high-density computing? Join us as we discuss with Jason the critical role of fibre optics, resilient infrastructure, and sustainable power supplies in modernising data centres, especially in Australia. We also delve into the exciting opportunities within tech and entrepreneurship, including the transition from coal to innovative energy solutions like battery storage. Discover how diverse and green energy sources are transforming the industry and why AI is set to revolutionise productivity. This conversation is packed with entrepreneurial insights and forward-thinking strategies that you won't want to miss!
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Episode Transcript
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Jason Gomersall (00:02):
Literally at the moment, deploying a
water-cooled high-performancecompute platform in one of our
facilities here in Queensland,which I think will be the first
of its kind.
Separate to that, we'reobviously looking at our use of
renewable energy, 100% renewableenergy.
There's so many opportunitiesin tech.
Michael van Rooyen (00:18):
Today I have the pleasure in having a chat
to Jason Gommersall, who is thefounder and chief executive
director of iSeek.
Jason and I've known each otherfor a while.
He's been doing data centersand all things connectivity for
over 26 years at iSeek, but hasa fascinating history.
We're also going to talk alittle bit about motorsport
batteries and what's happeningin industry, Jason, welcome.
Jason Gomersall (00:39):
Thank you.
Yeah, if we talk about lifebefore iSeek, which was a long
long time ago, I was actually inthe mobile phone industry and
in fact I was one of theoriginal Optus World franchisees
when that was a thing back inthe day.
So and if you go back beforethat, I effectively I was a uni
dropout, dropped out of amechanical engineering degree to
(01:01):
start a business in Rockhampton, which is my hometown degree,
to start a business inRockhampton, which is my
hometown, and that was sellingmobile phones, installing
satellite dishes TV antennas.
TV aggregation was a big thingback then.
Michael van Rooyen (01:14):
So selling filtered or doing filtered
search and that then turned intoa requirement to build internet
services and that's why youreally built the data center.
As you said, it's probablypeople who haven't been in this
industry for a long time or newto the industry.
They're just thinking that datacenters didn't really exist
back then.
It was kind of timely what youbuilt.
You saw the demand thatcustomers wanted data center
(01:36):
space, because back theneveryone had stuff on-prem.
They bought lots of closetsthemselves.
Was it just a tipping point ordid you sort of found an
opportunity that people werelooking at all for loading that,
for more security, resiliency?
What was the?
What was the motivator?
Jason Gomersall (01:48):
it's changed over time.
The initial driver was havingaccess to the, the bandwidth
being on top of the bandwidth.
So that's what attracted ourfirst customers.
They they wanted access to bigbandwidth and we had that, and
so, by by coming to our datacentre, that's what they got
access to.
Later on, however, it was moreas you said, they were running
(02:11):
their own computer room or broomcloset, whatever the case might
be, and they needed to get outof doing that and give it to
someone who did it as corebusiness, and that's still the
case today.
There's still a lot of stuffon-prem which is hard to believe
.
But there's still a lot ofstuff on-prem which is hard to
believe.
But there's still a lot ofracks in computer rooms and
broom closets on-prem that arestill yet to make their way into
(02:31):
a data centre like ours.
And then, in more recent times,of course, the drivers are the
cloud providers taking up datacentre space to provide services
to end customers.
Michael van Rooyen (02:39):
Right right.
Jason Gomersall (02:40):
So yeah, it continues to evolve.
The other big change is therack densities.
When we first started, we weretalking one and two kilowatts a
rack.
That was fairly standard, andwhy you would build in a
high-rise building, because youcould support that sort of
density.
But it wasn't long until thatbecame a challenge.
(03:02):
I suppose particularly with theadvent of blade server
technology.
That was a real step change inour industry.
And then your density was 4, 5,6 kilowatts a rack.
So instead of 5, 6, 7, 8kilowatts a rack, we're talking
50, 60, 70 kilowatts a rack,which we're now deploying in our
facilities right now.
That's a lot of power.
Michael van Rooyen (03:22):
The technology industry just
continues to evolve.
Change, you know that makes itexciting, right, and you always
think we've kind of reached atop of the bell curve but that's
at the bottom of the next one,right?
It's just this continued stepup all the time.
It must be challenging thentrying to get that sort of power
right.
I mean, you've obviously builtyour data centers for mass scale
, but then the hockey sticks benot hard to deal with, but the
(03:44):
preparation for that you don'tsee it coming.
I mean, probably if I had thischat to you five years ago, you
probably would have thoughtpossible, of course, physically,
but the demand wouldn't havebeen there.
You probably would have thoughtthat that's the case, right.
The acceleration of hours justreally sped that up here.
Jason Gomersall (03:57):
So, yes, we've needed access to a great deal of
power to meet that demand.
This next step, bud, bud, isthe amount of density in a
single rack and because of thesort of technology the gpu
technology it can't be aircooled, it must be water cooled.
That's really changing the gameand that process.
It needs a lot of compute, yes,and that compute generates, you
(04:17):
know, a lot of, or requires alot of power and a lot of energy
.
That's that step change onwater cooling.
Michael van Rooyen (04:22):
so water cooling, something you're
dealing with in the data centers, that's kind of at scale.
Are you doing that in yourfacilities or is it kind of
within RAC?
I don't understand the waterthing at that scale.
How are you guys doing that?
Yeah, we're literally at themoment deploying a water-cooled
high-performance computeplatform in one of our
facilities here in Queenslandwhich I think will be the first
(04:45):
of its kind in Queensland, whichis a preview for the future.
I know one of the things that'sreally top of mind for people
in the tech industry issustainability.
So a lot of the people I'vejust discussed with partners,
vendors et cetera.
There's a lot of drive toobviously micronisation of
compute and lower powerconsumption.
If you talk to a networkingspace, for example, a lot more
bandwidth but lower powerconsumption to deliver that.
Lasers have become moreefficient, all that good stuff.
(05:08):
So there's a big trajectory totry and get powered down.
You're on the opposite sidewhere you're seeing this demand
of power going up and thenthere's water cooling to offset
that.
How you got.
How is iceeeker yourself or theindustry thinking about
sustainability?
How do you reducesustainability or manage
sustainability?
Jason Gomersall (05:21):
I mean it is a challenge.
I mean the way in which we'recooling that technology, using
different methods like watercooling, is more efficient than
what we've done in the past.
So that's a plus Separate tothat we're obviously looking at
and we've got some interestingthings coming down the line in
terms of our use of renewableenergy.
100% renewable energy yeah,capturing heat and using that
somewhere, that's interesting,but in a climate like the one we
(05:46):
operate in, haven't worked outhow that would work for us, how
that would be relevantfascinating from from a point of
view of thinking about what,what those challenges are.
Michael van Rooyen (05:51):
So it's off that, what.
What are then?
Then?
If I think about the datacenters of the future, um, you
know what are the, what are thekind of challenges for both your
data centers as a whole and andcloud providers.
Jason Gomersall (06:02):
So you know what challenges you think are
coming for them power is a bigone and we've seen it in other
parts of the world.
You know done a fair bit insingapore, for example, with the
data center industry there.
You know they've effectivelyrun out of power in singapore
for the data center industry andhave been pushed over the
border in some respects intomalaysia and there's a precinct
effectively just over the borderthat forms part of the
(06:24):
Singapore data centre industry.
We're going to see the samething here.
There's been a lot of capacitybuilt in Sydney today, lots of
capacity and lots more coming,but eventually I think that's
going to bleed into other partsof Australia, of australia.
Um, there just simply won't beenough power in in one place and
that's that's a global problem.
Michael van Rooyen (06:44):
Connectivity is always, always the other
dimension to a data center,right?
So mass connectivity, fiber hasdefinitely changed.
Having a chat to uh, the headof innovation for nbn, the other
day and he was talking muchabout how they obviously pushing
fiber everywhere, which isoriginal strategy around nbn and
obviously life cycle has comearound that.
We know the the reasoning forfor fiber.
But you know, mass connectingdata center is probably not the
big problem anymore, right,you've got?
You've got this spiders web orthis web underneath the ground
(07:06):
of all this connectivity andthere's there's lots of
resiliency and reliability.
That was a challenge, butthat's kind of dissipated right
undersea cabling.
Leo satellites can also be abackup mechanism.
Now all that.
So so connectivity is prettygood.
5g is happening, but it's powerand what I'm hearing from you
is really power.
Is the challenge right?
And how do we provide that onan ongoing basis to not consume,
be the leader in powerconsumption or emissions
(07:27):
consumption in the world, right?
Jason Gomersall (07:29):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So therefore, I think the next20 years in the Australian data
centre industry is going to lookvery different than the last 20
.
We'll see data centres built inplaces that we traditionally
haven't seen, because they'llneed to go where the power is,
where it's readily available,where it's plentiful and where
(07:49):
it's green.
So I think that'll be a bigtrend for the next 20 years.
And then things like AI areless latency dependent as well,
so geography becomes lesscritical in that regard.
Michael van Rooyen (08:02):
so latency connectivity, you know, has
really come a long way, so youknow where that lives is not
really the key.
It's all about, as you said,the sustainability where it can
live, the security, uh, etc.
I even know your townsvilledata center.
You know you have built it fornatural disaster type scenarios,
right, so people can continuetheir services, and that's the
whole thinking on its own.
As you said, there's otherareas.
(08:22):
I remember google did datacenters in and I can't remember
the exact location, iceland,wherever it was, because you
know, use the natural cooling,uh, pre pre pre water cooling,
but but that was, you know, kindof the thinking in that area as
well.
So, fascinating, fascinatingaround data centers, knowing,
knowing that, uh, you're anentrepreneur and invested in
lots of businesses over yourtime in all different areas.
If you were to be doing somenot blue sky thinking, but if
(08:45):
you're doing any big bets todayin the connectivity data center
space, what would you be?
Now, you don't have to give anyaway, but you might be.
But what are you thinking?
Or what would you be thinking?
Jason Gomersall (08:54):
There's so many elements to the data center
industry, but where I've sort offocused and got really
interested is the energy part ofit, because they go hand in
hand.
The energy industry is goingthrough a massive transition at
the moment from traditional coaland so forth to other
technologies.
So that's fascinating.
And to the extent the datacentre industry plays in that
(09:15):
whole story and that ecosystem,yeah, I'm just trying to find
the opportunities within allthat.
Yeah, I'm just trying to findthe opportunities within all
that.
Yeah, the data industry I thinkthat you know it's currently
about 5% of total energy usagein Australia, moving very
quickly to 8%.
So that's continuing further andfurther.
So, yeah, we I think we have to, as an industry have some
(09:36):
thoughts or planning, or eveninvestment in how that plays out
.
Michael van Rooyen (09:40):
Without getting to politics.
Do you think Australia's readyfor the power consumption we
need?
Should we look into nuclear,continuing green?
And again, it's only opinion,so anyone listening, it's not a
fact.
I'm just interested in youropinion in this area.
Jason Gomersall (09:52):
Yeah, look, I think the nuclear thing makes
sense.
Michael van Rooyen (09:56):
I agree.
Jason Gomersall (09:57):
From the point of view we've got all these
coal-fired power stations.
I grew up in central Queensland.
On school excursions I went andsaw quite a few of them it's
what you did and so I've been toBillawheeler and Tarong Power
Station, stanwell.
I've seen them and thosecommunities rely on those assets
(10:19):
and they have jobs running inthose assets and so forth.
And going and plonking anothertype of generator in those areas
sort of makes a lot of sense.
Michael van Rooyen (10:28):
Completely agree, completely agree.
Now, just if I think about your26 years, you know, having ICIC
go through many iterations towhere it is today and knowing
that you've led that businessfrom the start, finding it and
being the executive director andobviously CEO over the time and
chairman, I think now, if I'mcorrect, of the board.
Jason Gomersall (10:46):
Still executive director.
Executive director.
Michael van Rooyen (10:49):
What kind of leadership principles have you
been guided by and helped youkind of run that business over?
Jason Gomersall (10:56):
the 26 years.
Look, you try and lead byexample.
Try and keep it simple,customer first, and sometimes
you can lose sight of that ifyou're not careful.
So your customers will tell youwhat they need from you if you
listen.
A lot of our productdevelopment and services have
come from fixing a customer'sproblem.
Michael van Rooyen (11:16):
And if I then think about, as I said
earlier, you've done many, manyinvestments in many areas, in
many different businesses anddifferent fields.
When you do that, what are youkind of looking for in new
ventures and how do you decidewhat to invest and what not to
invest in, of course, across abroad range of topics?
Jason Gomersall (11:32):
You know, having something that fixes
somebody's problem a customer'sproblem and that just leads to
success.
And then the second part is thepeople, and I was sort of stuck
to that as a thesis and itseems to work, work well we're
talking about investments.
Michael van Rooyen (11:46):
Your focus has been you talk about energy,
you know investing in a batterytechnology business, uh, mega
life, um, you know what?
What potential do you see inthat technology?
There's obviously quite a bithappening in that space, uh,
with some some unique thingsabout that.
So should you mind talking abit about it, without giving
away any secret sauce that youguys are working on?
Jason Gomersall (12:02):
Nathan, my business partner in that.
I've known for some timethrough motorsport, nathan, very
smart guy in the engineeringfield and simply he rang me up
one day and he's come up with asolution, a battery solution to
a problem in a particularindustry that happens to be very
big.
And investing in Nathan, who'sa really good guy, who's very
(12:23):
passionate, very knowledgeable,always pushing for technical
excellence, which is anengineering excellence which is
fantastic.
Touch wood, so far proven, arecipe for success.
Michael van Rooyen (12:33):
Good good and it's in it.
I mean, if I just think aboutfor those who aren't following
closely, what's happening in thebattery technology space and
there's a lot more evolution andinnovation coming out of that
space you think, oh, you know,that sounds like a traditional
space to work in, but again youfound a customer problem with a
really clever technology thatfits that problem.
You've got a founder who'sreally running it.
(12:54):
So it's that kind of thattriple success.
You're focusing on newtechnology into market.
That's large, that's probablytraditional and and a bit of
disruption and really founderdriven.
So that's interesting.
We're watching that.
We're watching that close.
I know you're very, veryexcited about about that
business.
You mentioned meeting nathan,nathan, um, out of motorsport,
and I know you're a, you're amotorsport enthusiast uh, your
(13:16):
own.
You've owned motor racing teams.
You've got motor racing teamstoday, you're sponsored them,
you're, you're a driver yourselfand have been for many years.
Um, it has your passion formotor racing teams you've got
motor racing teams today.
You're sponsored them, you're,you're a driver yourself and
have been for many years.
Um, it has your passion formotor racing influenced your
entrepreneurial journey andbusiness decisions or other way
around even so, I got intomotorsport.
Jason Gomersall (13:32):
I think I was about 29, 30 years old.
I'd been in business for youknow quite some time and you
know everything was going okay.
I felt I needed a hobby outsideof business you were bored.
I needed distraction outside ofbusiness, otherwise it might
have done my head in.
So I tried fishing.
Didn't really work for me.
It wasn't consuming enough totake my mind off business.
(13:55):
So I tried golf Same thing.
Wasn't very good at it andterrible at it.
Decided to try motorsport.
Always wanted to do motorsport.
Never did anything as a kid nogo-karting, nothing like that so
just always wanted to do it forsome reason.
And probably my biggest fearwhen I, you know, first went
into it was not whether I'd beany good or not, it was whether
I'd actually enjoy it.
Because I was.
(14:16):
I was looking for this hobby,that that I could enjoy outside
of business.
And uh yep, sure enough, firstround.
I think.
I qualified second last andprobably raced second last all
weekend, but I loved it.
So that was it.
It had me hooked so very much,started as a hobby and over the
course of time, somehow ended upin team ownership and ended up
(14:38):
in the supercar circus, so tospeak.
So V8, uutes, and, and then youknow, touring car masters and
then eventually super three.
More recently, part owner mattstone racing.
I've now got gomelsonmotorsport which runs in super
two and other categories, and Iguess my journey into that I
used my business experience asas a methodology, I suppose,
(14:58):
about how I went about my racing.
But then I learned I've learnedso much, much from motorsport
and they do some reallyinteresting things the level
they're operating at,particularly the main game level
in supercars, the disciplines,the technology, the processes
and the methodologies just nextlevel.
And I've been able to take someof that back into my business
(15:22):
life.
And since I've stepped down asCEO, having got that day-to-day
challenge that comes from that,it's probably less important.
But for so long when you're soinvested every day and so
entrenched in the business, thatdistraction call it, that of
motorsport was so important tome.
So you go away for the weekendracing, you actually step out of
(15:43):
your business completely forthat two or three days and
you're totally engrossed in whatyou're doing.
And that was so important to mysanity and probably, I think,
helped my longevity as ceo.
I don't think I could have gone25 years if I didn't have
something else to an outlet,yeah, an outlet, yeah, okay,
yeah, wow.
Michael van Rooyen (16:00):
Well, that that is interesting.
And you did miss a data point,then I'll.
I'll say it for on your behalf.
Jason Gomersall (16:05):
And you are the current six-hour Bathurst
champion for your category yesyes, I've only had one outing
this year and we had a win, andso I'm one for one, so that
might be it for the year.
Michael van Rooyen (16:16):
That's okay, I might hang the helmet up.
Win it high.
Jason Gomersall (16:18):
No, the plan is to get back in later this year.
I've got a GT4 Mustang on thewater coming from Canada at the
moment, so to compete in the GD4category.
So I'm looking forward togetting back behind the wheel,
but also these days my son Ben.
He's competing in the Toyota 86series, which is a pathway to
supercars, and so forth anddoing very well and I'm really
(16:40):
enjoying just being a dad and aspectator and watching his
journey.
Michael van Rooyen (16:44):
So off, that you know thinking about your
business, that you run theinvestments you make, your
passion for motorsports.
Uh, you know how do you balancethese things, you know, with
such diverse interests.
I mean, obviously there'scommonalities across them, but
you know, I know how busy youare, but but how do you, how do
you do that?
Jason Gomersall (16:59):
it's been different at different times and
sometimes you don't quite getthe balance right.
Right at the moment, I I thinkI'm in a really good place in
terms of finding that balance.
Certainly, being able to stepdown as ceo of isek this year
and hand the reins to scott andscott hicks has been fantastic.
I mean scott?
I mean it's something Iprobably would have done over
the course of the last few years, but just needed the right
person to come along.
(17:19):
He does, you know, he doesthings slightly different to me,
but our core philosophies arevery similar so, and the
business probably neededsomething different.
After 25 years, I mean,everything I've got to offer is
still there and scott bringsanother dimension, uh, to it,
which is which is great for thisnext phase.
So now the business has has meinvolved and it has got involved
(17:40):
what?
Michael van Rooyen (17:40):
what advice would you give aspiring
entrepreneurs who want to starta business or tech, tech
business or business?
What kind of advice would yougive them?
Jason Gomersall (17:48):
Yeah, in the early stage.
You know customer first, likeget the customer experience
right first, make all thoseinitial experiences good and the
rest will take care of itself.
You know operational stuff theyworry about.
It's like well, let's make surewe've actually got that to
worry about.
Michael van Rooyen (18:04):
If you don't sell something to someone,
you'll never have to worry aboutthat.
So let's make sure we'veactually got that to worry about
.
Jason Gomersall (18:07):
If you don't sell something to someone,
you'll never have to worry aboutthat.
Fair enough.
Michael van Rooyen (18:09):
So let's go create that problem.
Jason Gomersall (18:09):
Fair enough, let's get a product out there,
let's sell something to someoneand then Worry about those
things.
Yeah, I'm not saying, don'tthink about it.
Michael van Rooyen (18:16):
Of course, don't plan for it, of course.
Jason Gomersall (18:22):
Don't let it consume, you won't have anything
to worry about so that's greatadvice.
Now, reflecting on your career,you know what would have been
some of the most rewardingexperiences that you've been
through and and what cancontinues to motivate you in
your personal pursuitsreflecting on it sort of
recently, what I've, you know,been heartened by, I suppose, is
the number of opportunitiesthat the businesses I've been
(18:42):
involved with have created fordifferent people and, and
particularly in more recently,young people and okay and then I
then I think about some of thepeople have been in isek for a
long time.
They were young people when theyjoined, so, yeah, I get a warm
glow from that.
The number of, and whether it'sin motorsport uh, you know the
teams I've been involved with,and and so forth or whether it's
the tech businesses yeah, tosee the opportunities have come
(19:05):
out of that for, you know, anumber of people is great, so
that's a much better legacy thanyou know.
Building a data centre yeah ofcourse, of course.
Yeah, creating opportunitiesfor people is fantastic.
Michael van Rooyen (19:20):
Yeah, that is and that's what most people
you know get enjoyment out ofand that's also what keeps them
sticky.
You know the stories.
You know helping, helpingpeople out, seeing them on their
journey right, that that'salways the cast the past, pass
it down scenario, right and andand letting them lead their own
charge effectively.
Yeah, so two last ones for you.
Is there any key takeaway ormessage for the people listening
(19:41):
that that you want to mentionor key take whether should to
get out of this around?
Jason Gomersall (19:46):
you know the future, technology,
entrepreneurship, anythingaround business well, the, the
tech, yeah, so I suppose I spokeabout the sort of things I'm
focused on this so many.
There's so many opportunities intech and but the ones I'm
focused around, that sort oflinked together, is around that
energy piece.
So so, whether it's data centreor whether it's the Megalife
(20:10):
investment in battery technologyI've got a keen interest in,
and there's a lot of opportunityin energy, moving forward, the
energy transition.
So we've gone from a very forso long it was just it was coal
and it worked and it waspredictable, and that went on
for decades.
(20:30):
There's going to be so muchchange over the next couple of
decades and you know there'sgoing to be so many different
sources of energy, um, and somuch opportunity.
That's sort of where I'mfocused.
And then entrepreneurship um,well, has that really changed?
I mean, it's someone with anidea, some, you know, some
passion, who can then motivateand excite a group of people to
(20:51):
come with them and buildsomething and, uh, create
something.
Michael van Rooyen (20:54):
Yes, and would you also for entrepreneurs
because we always, for thosewho have been started business
or been involved, businessfailed or successful.
It's always that hard to start,to move right would you
encourage to have a go?
I mean, you know not what couldgo wrong.
Of course you got to take riskand all that into consideration,
but but would you encouragethat don't, don't, don't be
hesitant.
You know, have a go, there'sopportunities out there, as long
(21:15):
as you customer first and dothe right things absolutely.
Jason Gomersall (21:17):
I think there's as much opportunity as ever.
I think I think in somerespects it's hard, there's more
red tape and of courseregulation and all that sort of
stuff.
That that bit is harder, um,maybe 20 years ago.
But opportunities there.
And it's interesting, I, overthe years, I've had a lot of
people um, come to me who youknow in this more startup phase
(21:38):
and they're second guessing whatthey're doing and questioning
how well they're going.
They sort of tell you howthey're going.
You get, you're going great,yeah.
But so I'd absolutely say havea go.
There's nothing more rewarding,I think you know, than building
something.
And uh, I often say to nathan,we've you know, two or three
years into the mega life journeyand say enjoy these years,
these are the, these are the funones, that's true those early.
Michael van Rooyen (22:00):
They are the fun ones, so I asked them all,
guests who participate uh, youknow, tell me about the most
significant technology change orshift you've seen or been
involved with during your career.
Jason Gomersall (22:11):
I know it sounds a bit boring now but
really that first involvementwas sort of reasonably early in
the internet industry Not rightat the start, but reasonably
early and the advent of emailand search engines and all that
stuff that came in the earlydays, which was a massive step
(22:32):
change and shift in productivitymassive shift in productivity.
And we haven't seen anythinglike that since and if anything,
we might have gone backwards interms of some of the stuff
we've done since with socialmedia and we might have actually
reduced productivity with toomany distractions and so forth,
so that, yeah, in my lifetimeexperience and and even mobile
(22:52):
phones yes, I mean that geez,that really shifted the way we
operated.
It's hard to fathom, you know,how available we all are now
compared to and, and we'reprobably we're that generation
we've had most that stuff in ouradult life.
Yes, you think about beforethat you know, no mobile phone,
no email address, no one knowshow to contact you except on the
home phone.
So those things have beenmassive.
(23:14):
What's the next one?
You know, and the industryprobably needs one, because we,
as I said, we've probably gonebackwards in terms of the
productivity.
Michael van Rooyen (23:21):
I agree, I never thought about that, but I
agree.
Jason Gomersall (23:23):
The.
You know, ai is potentiallythat next big step change in
productivity and thereforecontribution to what we do.
Yeah, I agree.
Michael van Rooyen (23:33):
AI being the .
As I keep saying, it's theassisted intelligence, right,
the augmented intelligence.
Yeah, the efficiency.
I completely agree.
I think we're only seeing thebottom of the bell curve today
on what it's going to bring us.
But I do like that.
I'm a big fan of plumbing and Ithink building the internet to
give us the connectivity, thehyper-connectivity, mobile
phones definitely is one of minetop as well, so I really
(23:55):
appreciate that.
Yeah, well, I appreciate thetime today.
Jase, thanks for catching up.
Good to see you, you too, asalways.
Literally at the moment, deploying a
water-cooled high-performancecompute platform in one of our
facilities here in Queensland,which I think will be the first
of its kind.
Separate to that, we'reobviously looking at our use of
renewable energy, 100% renewableenergy.
There's so many opportunitiesin tech.
Michael van Rooyen (00:18):
Today I have the pleasure in having a chat
to Jason Gommersall, who is thefounder and chief executive
director of iSeek.
Jason and I've known each otherfor a while.
He's been doing data centersand all things connectivity for
over 26 years at iSeek, but hasa fascinating history.
We're also going to talk alittle bit about motorsport
batteries and what's happeningin industry, Jason, welcome.
Jason Gomersall (00:39):
Thank you.
Yeah, if we talk about lifebefore iSeek, which was a long
long time ago, I was actually inthe mobile phone industry and
in fact I was one of theoriginal Optus World franchisees
when that was a thing back inthe day.
So and if you go back beforethat, I effectively I was a uni
dropout, dropped out of amechanical engineering degree to
(01:01):
start a business in Rockhampton, which is my hometown degree,
to start a business inRockhampton, which is my
hometown, and that was sellingmobile phones, installing
satellite dishes TV antennas.
TV aggregation was a big thingback then.
Michael van Rooyen (01:14):
So selling filtered or doing filtered
search and that then turned intoa requirement to build internet
services and that's why youreally built the data center.
As you said, it's probablypeople who haven't been in this
industry for a long time or newto the industry.
They're just thinking that datacenters didn't really exist
back then.
It was kind of timely what youbuilt.
You saw the demand thatcustomers wanted data center
(01:36):
space, because back theneveryone had stuff on-prem.
They bought lots of closetsthemselves.
Was it just a tipping point ordid you sort of found an
opportunity that people werelooking at all for loading that,
for more security, resiliency?
What was the?
What was the motivator?
Jason Gomersall (01:48):
it's changed over time.
The initial driver was havingaccess to the, the bandwidth
being on top of the bandwidth.
So that's what attracted ourfirst customers.
They they wanted access to bigbandwidth and we had that, and
so, by by coming to our datacentre, that's what they got
access to.
Later on, however, it was moreas you said, they were running
(02:11):
their own computer room or broomcloset, whatever the case might
be, and they needed to get outof doing that and give it to
someone who did it as corebusiness, and that's still the
case today.
There's still a lot of stuffon-prem which is hard to believe
.
But there's still a lot ofstuff on-prem which is hard to
believe.
But there's still a lot ofracks in computer rooms and
broom closets on-prem that arestill yet to make their way into
(02:31):
a data centre like ours.
And then, in more recent times,of course, the drivers are the
cloud providers taking up datacentre space to provide services
to end customers.
Michael van Rooyen (02:39):
Right right.
Jason Gomersall (02:40):
So yeah, it continues to evolve.
The other big change is therack densities.
When we first started, we weretalking one and two kilowatts a
rack.
That was fairly standard, andwhy you would build in a
high-rise building, because youcould support that sort of
density.
But it wasn't long until thatbecame a challenge.
(03:02):
I suppose particularly with theadvent of blade server
technology.
That was a real step change inour industry.
And then your density was 4, 5,6 kilowatts a rack.
So instead of 5, 6, 7, 8kilowatts a rack, we're talking
50, 60, 70 kilowatts a rack,which we're now deploying in our
facilities right now.
That's a lot of power.
Michael van Rooyen (03:22):
The technology industry just
continues to evolve.
Change, you know that makes itexciting, right, and you always
think we've kind of reached atop of the bell curve but that's
at the bottom of the next one,right?
It's just this continued stepup all the time.
It must be challenging thentrying to get that sort of power
right.
I mean, you've obviously builtyour data centers for mass scale
, but then the hockey sticks benot hard to deal with, but the
(03:44):
preparation for that you don'tsee it coming.
I mean, probably if I had thischat to you five years ago, you
probably would have thoughtpossible, of course, physically,
but the demand wouldn't havebeen there.
You probably would have thoughtthat that's the case, right.
The acceleration of hours justreally sped that up here.
Jason Gomersall (03:57):
So, yes, we've needed access to a great deal of
power to meet that demand.
This next step, bud, bud, isthe amount of density in a
single rack and because of thesort of technology the gpu
technology it can't be aircooled, it must be water cooled.
That's really changing the gameand that process.
It needs a lot of compute, yes,and that compute generates, you
(04:17):
know, a lot of, or requires alot of power and a lot of energy
.
That's that step change onwater cooling.
Michael van Rooyen (04:22):
so water cooling, something you're
dealing with in the data centers, that's kind of at scale.
Are you doing that in yourfacilities or is it kind of
within RAC?
I don't understand the waterthing at that scale.
How are you guys doing that?
Yeah, we're literally at themoment deploying a water-cooled
high-performance computeplatform in one of our
facilities here in Queenslandwhich I think will be the first
(04:45):
of its kind in Queensland, whichis a preview for the future.
I know one of the things that'sreally top of mind for people
in the tech industry issustainability.
So a lot of the people I'vejust discussed with partners,
vendors et cetera.
There's a lot of drive toobviously micronisation of
compute and lower powerconsumption.
If you talk to a networkingspace, for example, a lot more
bandwidth but lower powerconsumption to deliver that.
Lasers have become moreefficient, all that good stuff.
(05:08):
So there's a big trajectory totry and get powered down.
You're on the opposite sidewhere you're seeing this demand
of power going up and thenthere's water cooling to offset
that.
How you got.
How is iceeeker yourself or theindustry thinking about
sustainability?
How do you reducesustainability or manage
sustainability?
Jason Gomersall (05:21):
I mean it is a challenge.
I mean the way in which we'recooling that technology, using
different methods like watercooling, is more efficient than
what we've done in the past.
So that's a plus Separate tothat we're obviously looking at
and we've got some interestingthings coming down the line in
terms of our use of renewableenergy.
100% renewable energy yeah,capturing heat and using that
somewhere, that's interesting,but in a climate like the one we
(05:46):
operate in, haven't worked outhow that would work for us, how
that would be relevantfascinating from from a point of
view of thinking about what,what those challenges are.
Michael van Rooyen (05:51):
So it's off that, what.
What are then?
Then?
If I think about the datacenters of the future, um, you
know what are the, what are thekind of challenges for both your
data centers as a whole and andcloud providers.
Jason Gomersall (06:02):
So you know what challenges you think are
coming for them power is a bigone and we've seen it in other
parts of the world.
You know done a fair bit insingapore, for example, with the
data center industry there.
You know they've effectivelyrun out of power in singapore
for the data center industry andhave been pushed over the
border in some respects intomalaysia and there's a precinct
effectively just over the borderthat forms part of the
(06:24):
Singapore data centre industry.
We're going to see the samething here.
There's been a lot of capacitybuilt in Sydney today, lots of
capacity and lots more coming,but eventually I think that's
going to bleed into other partsof Australia, of australia.
Um, there just simply won't beenough power in in one place and
that's that's a global problem.
Michael van Rooyen (06:44):
Connectivity is always, always the other
dimension to a data center,right?
So mass connectivity, fiber hasdefinitely changed.
Having a chat to uh, the headof innovation for nbn, the other
day and he was talking muchabout how they obviously pushing
fiber everywhere, which isoriginal strategy around nbn and
obviously life cycle has comearound that.
We know the the reasoning forfor fiber.
But you know, mass connectingdata center is probably not the
big problem anymore, right,you've got?
You've got this spiders web orthis web underneath the ground
(07:06):
of all this connectivity andthere's there's lots of
resiliency and reliability.
That was a challenge, butthat's kind of dissipated right
undersea cabling.
Leo satellites can also be abackup mechanism.
Now all that.
So so connectivity is prettygood.
5g is happening, but it's powerand what I'm hearing from you
is really power.
Is the challenge right?
And how do we provide that onan ongoing basis to not consume,
be the leader in powerconsumption or emissions
(07:27):
consumption in the world, right?
Jason Gomersall (07:29):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
So therefore, I think the next20 years in the Australian data
centre industry is going to lookvery different than the last 20
.
We'll see data centres built inplaces that we traditionally
haven't seen, because they'llneed to go where the power is,
where it's readily available,where it's plentiful and where
(07:49):
it's green.
So I think that'll be a bigtrend for the next 20 years.
And then things like AI areless latency dependent as well,
so geography becomes lesscritical in that regard.
Michael van Rooyen (08:02):
so latency connectivity, you know, has
really come a long way, so youknow where that lives is not
really the key.
It's all about, as you said,the sustainability where it can
live, the security, uh, etc.
I even know your townsvilledata center.
You know you have built it fornatural disaster type scenarios,
right, so people can continuetheir services, and that's the
whole thinking on its own.
As you said, there's otherareas.
(08:22):
I remember google did datacenters in and I can't remember
the exact location, iceland,wherever it was, because you
know, use the natural cooling,uh, pre pre pre water cooling,
but but that was, you know, kindof the thinking in that area as
well.
So, fascinating, fascinatingaround data centers, knowing,
knowing that, uh, you're anentrepreneur and invested in
lots of businesses over yourtime in all different areas.
If you were to be doing somenot blue sky thinking, but if
(08:45):
you're doing any big bets todayin the connectivity data center
space, what would you be?
Now, you don't have to give anyaway, but you might be.
But what are you thinking?
Or what would you be thinking?
Jason Gomersall (08:54):
There's so many elements to the data center
industry, but where I've sort offocused and got really
interested is the energy part ofit, because they go hand in
hand.
The energy industry is goingthrough a massive transition at
the moment from traditional coaland so forth to other
technologies.
So that's fascinating.
And to the extent the datacentre industry plays in that
(09:15):
whole story and that ecosystem,yeah, I'm just trying to find
the opportunities within allthat.
Yeah, I'm just trying to findthe opportunities within all
that.
Yeah, the data industry I thinkthat you know it's currently
about 5% of total energy usagein Australia, moving very
quickly to 8%.
So that's continuing further andfurther.
So, yeah, we I think we have to, as an industry have some
(09:36):
thoughts or planning, or eveninvestment in how that plays out
.
Michael van Rooyen (09:40):
Without getting to politics.
Do you think Australia's readyfor the power consumption we
need?
Should we look into nuclear,continuing green?
And again, it's only opinion,so anyone listening, it's not a
fact.
I'm just interested in youropinion in this area.
Jason Gomersall (09:52):
Yeah, look, I think the nuclear thing makes
sense.
Michael van Rooyen (09:56):
I agree.
Jason Gomersall (09:57):
From the point of view we've got all these
coal-fired power stations.
I grew up in central Queensland.
On school excursions I went andsaw quite a few of them it's
what you did and so I've been toBillawheeler and Tarong Power
Station, stanwell.
I've seen them and thosecommunities rely on those assets
(10:19):
and they have jobs running inthose assets and so forth.
And going and plonking anothertype of generator in those areas
sort of makes a lot of sense.
Michael van Rooyen (10:28):
Completely agree, completely agree.
Now, just if I think about your26 years, you know, having ICIC
go through many iterations towhere it is today and knowing
that you've led that businessfrom the start, finding it and
being the executive director andobviously CEO over the time and
chairman, I think now, if I'mcorrect, of the board.
Jason Gomersall (10:46):
Still executive director.
Executive director.
Michael van Rooyen (10:49):
What kind of leadership principles have you
been guided by and helped youkind of run that business over?
Jason Gomersall (10:56):
the 26 years.
Look, you try and lead byexample.
Try and keep it simple,customer first, and sometimes
you can lose sight of that ifyou're not careful.
So your customers will tell youwhat they need from you if you
listen.
A lot of our productdevelopment and services have
come from fixing a customer'sproblem.
Michael van Rooyen (11:16):
And if I then think about, as I said
earlier, you've done many, manyinvestments in many areas, in
many different businesses anddifferent fields.
When you do that, what are youkind of looking for in new
ventures and how do you decidewhat to invest and what not to
invest in, of course, across abroad range of topics?
Jason Gomersall (11:32):
You know, having something that fixes
somebody's problem a customer'sproblem and that just leads to
success.
And then the second part is thepeople, and I was sort of stuck
to that as a thesis and itseems to work, work well we're
talking about investments.
Michael van Rooyen (11:46):
Your focus has been you talk about energy,
you know investing in a batterytechnology business, uh, mega
life, um, you know what?
What potential do you see inthat technology?
There's obviously quite a bithappening in that space, uh,
with some some unique thingsabout that.
So should you mind talking abit about it, without giving
away any secret sauce that youguys are working on?
Jason Gomersall (12:02):
Nathan, my business partner in that.
I've known for some timethrough motorsport, nathan, very
smart guy in the engineeringfield and simply he rang me up
one day and he's come up with asolution, a battery solution to
a problem in a particularindustry that happens to be very
big.
And investing in Nathan, who'sa really good guy, who's very
(12:23):
passionate, very knowledgeable,always pushing for technical
excellence, which is anengineering excellence which is
fantastic.
Touch wood, so far proven, arecipe for success.
Michael van Rooyen (12:33):
Good good and it's in it.
I mean, if I just think aboutfor those who aren't following
closely, what's happening in thebattery technology space and
there's a lot more evolution andinnovation coming out of that
space you think, oh, you know,that sounds like a traditional
space to work in, but again youfound a customer problem with a
really clever technology thatfits that problem.
You've got a founder who'sreally running it.
(12:54):
So it's that kind of thattriple success.
You're focusing on newtechnology into market.
That's large, that's probablytraditional and and a bit of
disruption and really founderdriven.
So that's interesting.
We're watching that.
We're watching that close.
I know you're very, veryexcited about about that
business.
You mentioned meeting nathan,nathan, um, out of motorsport,
and I know you're a, you're amotorsport enthusiast uh, your
(13:16):
own.
You've owned motor racing teams.
You've got motor racing teamstoday, you're sponsored them,
you're, you're a driver yourselfand have been for many years.
Um, it has your passion formotor racing teams you've got
motor racing teams today.
You're sponsored them, you're,you're a driver yourself and
have been for many years.
Um, it has your passion formotor racing influenced your
entrepreneurial journey andbusiness decisions or other way
around even so, I got intomotorsport.
Jason Gomersall (13:32):
I think I was about 29, 30 years old.
I'd been in business for youknow quite some time and you
know everything was going okay.
I felt I needed a hobby outsideof business you were bored.
I needed distraction outside ofbusiness, otherwise it might
have done my head in.
So I tried fishing.
Didn't really work for me.
It wasn't consuming enough totake my mind off business.
(13:55):
So I tried golf Same thing.
Wasn't very good at it andterrible at it.
Decided to try motorsport.
Always wanted to do motorsport.
Never did anything as a kid nogo-karting, nothing like that so
just always wanted to do it forsome reason.
And probably my biggest fearwhen I, you know, first went
into it was not whether I'd beany good or not, it was whether
I'd actually enjoy it.
Because I was.
(14:16):
I was looking for this hobby,that that I could enjoy outside
of business.
And uh yep, sure enough, firstround.
I think.
I qualified second last andprobably raced second last all
weekend, but I loved it.
So that was it.
It had me hooked so very much,started as a hobby and over the
course of time, somehow ended upin team ownership and ended up
(14:38):
in the supercar circus, so tospeak.
So V8, uutes, and, and then youknow, touring car masters and
then eventually super three.
More recently, part owner mattstone racing.
I've now got gomelsonmotorsport which runs in super
two and other categories, and Iguess my journey into that I
used my business experience asas a methodology, I suppose,
(14:58):
about how I went about my racing.
But then I learned I've learnedso much, much from motorsport
and they do some reallyinteresting things the level
they're operating at,particularly the main game level
in supercars, the disciplines,the technology, the processes
and the methodologies just nextlevel.
And I've been able to take someof that back into my business
(15:22):
life.
And since I've stepped down asCEO, having got that day-to-day
challenge that comes from that,it's probably less important.
But for so long when you're soinvested every day and so
entrenched in the business, thatdistraction call it, that of
motorsport was so important tome.
So you go away for the weekendracing, you actually step out of
(15:43):
your business completely forthat two or three days and
you're totally engrossed in whatyou're doing.
And that was so important to mysanity and probably, I think,
helped my longevity as ceo.
I don't think I could have gone25 years if I didn't have
something else to an outlet,yeah, an outlet, yeah, okay,
yeah, wow.
Michael van Rooyen (16:00):
Well, that that is interesting.
And you did miss a data point,then I'll.
I'll say it for on your behalf.
Jason Gomersall (16:05):
And you are the current six-hour Bathurst
champion for your category yesyes, I've only had one outing
this year and we had a win, andso I'm one for one, so that
might be it for the year.
Michael van Rooyen (16:16):
That's okay, I might hang the helmet up.
Win it high.
Jason Gomersall (16:18):
No, the plan is to get back in later this year.
I've got a GT4 Mustang on thewater coming from Canada at the
moment, so to compete in the GD4category.
So I'm looking forward togetting back behind the wheel,
but also these days my son Ben.
He's competing in the Toyota 86series, which is a pathway to
supercars, and so forth anddoing very well and I'm really
(16:40):
enjoying just being a dad and aspectator and watching his
journey.
Michael van Rooyen (16:44):
So off, that you know thinking about your
business, that you run theinvestments you make, your
passion for motorsports.
Uh, you know how do you balancethese things, you know, with
such diverse interests.
I mean, obviously there'scommonalities across them, but
you know, I know how busy youare, but but how do you, how do
you do that?
Jason Gomersall (16:59):
it's been different at different times and
sometimes you don't quite getthe balance right.
Right at the moment, I I thinkI'm in a really good place in
terms of finding that balance.
Certainly, being able to stepdown as ceo of isek this year
and hand the reins to scott andscott hicks has been fantastic.
I mean scott?
I mean it's something Iprobably would have done over
the course of the last few years, but just needed the right
person to come along.
(17:19):
He does, you know, he doesthings slightly different to me,
but our core philosophies arevery similar so, and the
business probably neededsomething different.
After 25 years, I mean,everything I've got to offer is
still there and scott bringsanother dimension, uh, to it,
which is which is great for thisnext phase.
So now the business has has meinvolved and it has got involved
(17:40):
what?
Michael van Rooyen (17:40):
what advice would you give aspiring
entrepreneurs who want to starta business or tech, tech
business or business?
What kind of advice would yougive them?
Jason Gomersall (17:48):
Yeah, in the early stage.
You know customer first, likeget the customer experience
right first, make all thoseinitial experiences good and the
rest will take care of itself.
You know operational stuff theyworry about.
It's like well, let's make surewe've actually got that to
worry about.
Michael van Rooyen (18:04):
If you don't sell something to someone,
you'll never have to worry aboutthat.
So let's make sure we'veactually got that to worry about
.
Jason Gomersall (18:07):
If you don't sell something to someone,
you'll never have to worry aboutthat.
Fair enough.
Michael van Rooyen (18:09):
So let's go create that problem.
Jason Gomersall (18:09):
Fair enough, let's get a product out there,
let's sell something to someoneand then Worry about those
things.
Yeah, I'm not saying, don'tthink about it.
Michael van Rooyen (18:16):
Of course, don't plan for it, of course.
Jason Gomersall (18:22):
Don't let it consume, you won't have anything
to worry about so that's greatadvice.
Now, reflecting on your career,you know what would have been
some of the most rewardingexperiences that you've been
through and and what cancontinues to motivate you in
your personal pursuitsreflecting on it sort of
recently, what I've, you know,been heartened by, I suppose, is
the number of opportunitiesthat the businesses I've been
(18:42):
involved with have created fordifferent people and, and
particularly in more recently,young people and okay and then I
then I think about some of thepeople have been in isek for a
long time.
They were young people when theyjoined, so, yeah, I get a warm
glow from that.
The number of, and whether it'sin motorsport uh, you know the
teams I've been involved with,and and so forth or whether it's
the tech businesses yeah, tosee the opportunities have come
(19:05):
out of that for, you know, anumber of people is great, so
that's a much better legacy thanyou know.
Building a data centre yeah ofcourse, of course.
Yeah, creating opportunitiesfor people is fantastic.
Michael van Rooyen (19:20):
Yeah, that is and that's what most people
you know get enjoyment out ofand that's also what keeps them
sticky.
You know the stories.
You know helping, helpingpeople out, seeing them on their
journey right, that that'salways the cast the past, pass
it down scenario, right and andand letting them lead their own
charge effectively.
Yeah, so two last ones for you.
Is there any key takeaway ormessage for the people listening
(19:41):
that that you want to mentionor key take whether should to
get out of this around?
Jason Gomersall (19:46):
you know the future, technology,
entrepreneurship, anythingaround business well, the, the
tech, yeah, so I suppose I spokeabout the sort of things I'm
focused on this so many.
There's so many opportunities intech and but the ones I'm
focused around, that sort oflinked together, is around that
energy piece.
So so, whether it's data centreor whether it's the Megalife
(20:10):
investment in battery technologyI've got a keen interest in,
and there's a lot of opportunityin energy, moving forward, the
energy transition.
So we've gone from a very forso long it was just it was coal
and it worked and it waspredictable, and that went on
for decades.
(20:30):
There's going to be so muchchange over the next couple of
decades and you know there'sgoing to be so many different
sources of energy, um, and somuch opportunity.
That's sort of where I'mfocused.
And then entrepreneurship um,well, has that really changed?
I mean, it's someone with anidea, some, you know, some
passion, who can then motivateand excite a group of people to
(20:51):
come with them and buildsomething and, uh, create
something.
Michael van Rooyen (20:54):
Yes, and would you also for entrepreneurs
because we always, for thosewho have been started business
or been involved, businessfailed or successful.
It's always that hard to start,to move right would you
encourage to have a go?
I mean, you know not what couldgo wrong.
Of course you got to take riskand all that into consideration,
but but would you encouragethat don't, don't, don't be
hesitant.
You know, have a go, there'sopportunities out there, as long
(21:15):
as you customer first and dothe right things absolutely.
Jason Gomersall (21:17):
I think there's as much opportunity as ever.
I think I think in somerespects it's hard, there's more
red tape and of courseregulation and all that sort of
stuff.
That that bit is harder, um,maybe 20 years ago.
But opportunities there.
And it's interesting, I, overthe years, I've had a lot of
people um, come to me who youknow in this more startup phase
(21:38):
and they're second guessing whatthey're doing and questioning
how well they're going.
They sort of tell you howthey're going.
You get, you're going great,yeah.
But so I'd absolutely say havea go.
There's nothing more rewarding,I think you know, than building
something.
And uh, I often say to nathan,we've you know, two or three
years into the mega life journeyand say enjoy these years,
these are the, these are the funones, that's true those early.
Michael van Rooyen (22:00):
They are the fun ones, so I asked them all,
guests who participate uh, youknow, tell me about the most
significant technology change orshift you've seen or been
involved with during your career.
Jason Gomersall (22:11):
I know it sounds a bit boring now but
really that first involvementwas sort of reasonably early in
the internet industry Not rightat the start, but reasonably
early and the advent of emailand search engines and all that
stuff that came in the earlydays, which was a massive step
(22:32):
change and shift in productivitymassive shift in productivity.
And we haven't seen anythinglike that since and if anything,
we might have gone backwards interms of some of the stuff
we've done since with socialmedia and we might have actually
reduced productivity with toomany distractions and so forth,
so that, yeah, in my lifetimeexperience and and even mobile
(22:52):
phones yes, I mean that geez,that really shifted the way we
operated.
It's hard to fathom, you know,how available we all are now
compared to and, and we'reprobably we're that generation
we've had most that stuff in ouradult life.
Yes, you think about beforethat you know, no mobile phone,
no email address, no one knowshow to contact you except on the
home phone.
So those things have beenmassive.
(23:14):
What's the next one?
You know, and the industryprobably needs one, because we,
as I said, we've probably gonebackwards in terms of the
productivity.
Michael van Rooyen (23:21):
I agree, I never thought about that, but I
agree.
Jason Gomersall (23:23):
The.
You know, ai is potentiallythat next big step change in
productivity and thereforecontribution to what we do.
Yeah, I agree.
Michael van Rooyen (23:33):
AI being the .
As I keep saying, it's theassisted intelligence, right,
the augmented intelligence.
Yeah, the efficiency.
I completely agree.
I think we're only seeing thebottom of the bell curve today
on what it's going to bring us.
But I do like that.
I'm a big fan of plumbing and Ithink building the internet to
give us the connectivity, thehyper-connectivity, mobile
phones definitely is one of minetop as well, so I really
(23:55):
appreciate that.
Yeah, well, I appreciate thetime today.
Jase, thanks for catching up.
Good to see you, you too, asalways.
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