October 19, 2024 • 37 mins
Nichole Wynne, CEO and founder of Nicstar, joins us to share her remarkable journey from a small town in New South Wales to becoming a trailblazer in the ICT industry. You'll gain insights into her experiences with prominent American companies and how their emphasis on training and innovation influenced her approach to business and client relations. With her unique perspective, Nichole underscores the indispensable role of project management in achieving successful outcomes for clients, shedding light on her passion for technology and leadership that has earned her a nomination in the Women in ICT Awards.
Explore the rapidly shifting landscape of project management with us, as we discuss the essential qualities of integrity, authenticity, and adaptability. Nichole provides a deep dive into the latest trends in network infrastructure, focusing on speed, security, and sustainability. The conversation navigates through the emerging impact of AI and edge computing on infrastructure design, while also advocating for an integrated approach to physical and cybersecurity. Nicole's insights into the transformative role of AI in both personal and professional realms will leave you pondering the future of technology.
As we delve into the art of building successful project teams, Nichole emphasises the critical importance of thorough testing in pre-production environments to tackle complex ICT projects, particularly within large government organisations. Drawing from her extensive experience, she shares anecdotes of managing challenging projects and the collaborative efforts required to overcome obstacles. Her advice for women entering the ICT field highlights genuine passion and resilience as key drivers for success, irrespective of gender. Finally, we reflect on the ongoing shift toward hyper-connectivity, exploring its profound impact on communication and interaction in our digital age.
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Episode Transcript
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Nichole Wynne (00:00):
Project management is an art.
It's less of a science and moreof an art.
As we know, with art it's inthe eye of the beholder, so it's
complex, but it's very simpleat the same time.
Delivering a project is verydifferent to that.
You have to be agile, and Idon't mean agile in an agile
delivery approach.
Here's a drawing of what anagile and putting sticky notes
(00:20):
on walls.
I don't mean that I mean youhave to be able to move with the
project.
You sticky notes on walls.
I don't mean that.
I mean you have to be able tomove with the project you need
to understand where theproject's going, you need to see
what's coming.
Michael van Rooyen (00:28):
Today, I have the pleasure in
interviewing Nicole Wynn, who isthe CEO and founder of a
company called Nickstar.
We're going to be talking todayaround all things project
management, in particular,around ICT, an art that many
don't think about in deliveringprojects, but very fundamental
to the outcome for customers.
Welcome, nicole.
Thank you, michael.
Before we get started, I'd justlike to take a moment to
(00:51):
congratulate you on yournomination in the WICTA, which
is the Women in ICT Awards.
Nichole Wynne (00:56):
Thank you In the Achievement category.
Michael van Rooyen (00:58):
Yep For many listeners who don't know, this
is an annual award that they runfor women in ICT, which I think
is fantastic, and the awardthat you were nominated for was
to recognize standout candidateswho have delivered an unrivaled
contribution in the industry,and I know you've been doing
this for a very long time, soit's a worthwhile category.
(01:19):
Part of that award is aboutevident outstanding professional
and personal achievements.
The individual individualearned a reputation as an
esteemed thought leader, hencewhy you're here today Thanks,
Nicole Following a distinguishedcareer in both business as a
business leader and a role modelfor aspiring executives, and
this award particularlyachievement categories for
candidates with over 21 years ofexperience within the ICT
(01:41):
industry.
So that speaks volumes alone.
It's been a while.
I don't know how you're stilldoing it.
Nichole Wynne (01:43):
project management afterCT industry, so
that speaks volumes alone.
It's been a while.
I don't know how you're stilldoing it.
Project management after thatlong.
Michael van Rooyen (01:47):
So again, well done and thanks for the
time today.
Nichole Wynne (01:50):
Thank you, Michael.
It was certainly humbling andvery much an honour to be
nominated, to be amongst thosekind of people.
It's not until you kind of lookback on your career that you
realise how long you've beendoing it and what you've
achieved.
So it was a good opportunity toreflect.
Michael van Rooyen (02:05):
Well again, congratulations, and well
deserved.
So in today's session I wasreally wanting people to
understand things around projectmanagement for the industry and
the importance of that.
Project management obviouslyextensively important in all
industries construction,everything like that but I think
it's an underlying thing thatpeople don't really perceive as
(02:28):
how important it is in the ICTindustry, considering how
critical it's becoming.
So, before we get started, doyou mind sharing a little bit
about your journey in the ICTindustry and what inspired you
to start NICSTAR in 1999?
Nichole Wynne (02:40):
Thanks, michael.
Yeah, I started.
I grew up in a very smallcountry town in New South Wales
called Wellington, out nearDubbo, where there's not a lot
of opportunity for ICT,certainly not back in the 80s
and 90s when I was at school.
So I decided I wanted to be acomputer programmer and at the
ripe old age of 14, I startedwriting letters to IBM in Sydney
(03:02):
requesting them to employ me.
Of course I didn't hearanything back, but that didn't
dampen my spirits.
I just maybe try and workharder to get where I wanted to
be.
I left Wellington at the ripeold age of 17 when I finished
school and went to Armidale tostudy computer science at the
University of New England.
I was there for about six oreight weeks and looked around
the room and just saw a wholebunch of A men, b, very
(03:25):
mathematical and scientific typepeople which I didn't really
fit the crowd for that and madea decision to change to
financial management andinformation technology, which
was probably the best move Iever made.
It was a business andtechnology degree that I never
finished.
However, it certainlykick-started my journey to get
me to where I am today.
(03:45):
So from there I spent a year atuni and then realized I
couldn't afford to stay there.
So I moved to Sydney and Iscored a job with a distributor
who happened to be.
I was the 12th employee of thecompany in Australia.
They're an American companythat had come out distributing
hubs at the time and switchingwas just starting off and Fiber
(04:05):
and Coppe and I got anopportunity to be involved in a
business that was a startupbusiness in Australia, which
also gave me an opportunity todo a lot of training.
So, being an American company,they're big on training.
We had opportunities to go intothe office at seven in the
morning and a vendor would comein and give us a spiel on their
product and how it works.
So I got to involve myself inthe industry at a very young age
(04:27):
.
I was only 19, just turned 19.
And it was an amazingopportunity to do that.
I worked down there for threeyears, I think, and then I moved
to Brisbane and I was going tocontinue my journey with the
distributor then.
But I got sold off to anotherstartup company, which is again
(04:48):
it's a series of fortunateevents is how I would describe
my history and my journey inthis industry.
I got to start with a cablingcompany, so layer one, an
emerging company that wasstarting their branch office.
So I got to start up a business, got to find clients, got to
employ staff, got to understandhow the admin side of a business
works, how the startup side ofa business, got to find clients,
got to employ staff, got tounderstand how the admin side of
a business works, how thestartup side of a business works
, and got to make contacts andstart to make a name for myself
(05:12):
in the industry in terms oflayer one, physical layer,
cabling and design.
From there, at the ripe old ageof 23, I decided it was time for
me to venture out and start myown business.
So Nick Starr was born.
So, against the worldly adviceof my dad who said don't do it,
I said nope, I'm going to do it.
And Nickstar was born and verymuch focused.
(05:35):
I saw a gap in the market.
Cabling was getting stronger,comms networking was getting
stronger in the market.
A lot of businesses knew theyneeded it but they didn't know
what they needed.
So I started off more in aconsultative sort of business,
working with the client, workingwith the end user to understand
what they needed and thendesigning and implementing and
managing cabling solutions forthem.
That grew into projectmanagement and took us to where
(05:56):
we are today.
So it's introduced us to a lotof interesting clients, both
government, corporate and thefinancial.
We did a lot of work withSuncorp and the universities and
Optus and, yeah, variousdifferent markets.
Michael van Rooyen (06:08):
Right, right .
I mean, look it's.
Not only do you cover projectmanagement, you are layer one is
such a thing that people don'tconsider right the importance of
that and how badly it can gowrong.
I think that's a fundamentalthing that people still downplay
.
They think it's just cables,but if you know, if you don't
get that right, everythingrelies on that right.
I mean, whilst protocols andservers and systems and networks
(06:32):
really allow for that, but it'sstill fundamentally an art on
its own right.
And I think we're seeing lessand less of it, I think.
I don't want to go into thebeehive of NBN build, but we've
seen some bad instances therewhere just layer one's not
understood properly Absolutely.
And then project manager on topof that right.
So pretty unique right.
Nichole Wynne (06:55):
Yeah, understanding that that
transport layer is integral to.
I used to have this analogywhen I first started the
business that it was likedriving a Ferrari on a dirt road
.
It doesn't matter how good thecar is, if the road's not good,
you're not going to get the bestperformance is if the road's
not good, you're not going toget the best performance.
So that's something that I'vetaken with me through the last
25 years.
That's the basis and theimportance, and so many times
when we're managing cutovers fornetwork architecture, it comes
down to layer one issues.
It's polarity issues with thefibre.
(07:16):
It's things that we can managebecause we've got that knowledge
from that transport layer.
Michael van Rooyen (07:24):
So it's very important.
And look, 25 plus years ofexperience in design and project
management.
What's with some of the keychallenges you faced early in
the career and how did youovercome them?
Nichole Wynne (07:33):
Certainly being a young woman in a very
male-dominated industry.
So, we think back to 1997, 98,99, I was one of the only women
that was working in the industry.
There were some people indefense, some women in defense
that were working in IT, butother than that there really
wasn't any women in the industry.
So I rocked up in Brisbane thisgreen young woman who really
(07:58):
wanted to make a mark in theindustry and I was knocking on
doors and I found I could openthe doors.
That was never a challenge.
I could always get a lunch oran appointment with somebody in
government or somebody incorporate or financial
industries, but being able totake home a sale or take home an
opportunity was hard if youdidn't know what you're talking
(08:18):
about.
So I found one of the biggestchallenges for me was making
sure that I was at the forefrontof the industry, understanding
technology better than what wasexpected of me, so that I could
not just open the door but Icould hold a seat at the table
and I could talk the talk andwalk the walk at the same time.
So, that was really important.
I think that was one of the keysuccess criterias for me.
Michael van Rooyen (08:37):
Oh look, it would have been right.
I mean, luckily, the industryand the world's evolved a lot
more.
You know inclusivity and theworld's evolved a lot more.
You know inclusivity, you knowseeing that, but obviously doing
it back then would definitelyhave been tough and it's a well
thought out play there to beable to talk the talk and walk
the walk as well and really,really challenging.
I still see you doing thattoday and off that.
(08:57):
If I think about how yourselfand the company has evolved over
the years, what kind ofleadership principles have
guided you to growing yourbusiness to where it is today?
Nichole Wynne (09:06):
I think the most important thing I've learned
through business and I think itjust comes from my grounding,
from growing up in a smallcountry town I think integrity
and authenticity are the maindriving factors for a successful
business and a successfulleader.
I always try and remainauthentic to myself and I follow
my gut.
I'm a very open person, whichcan be to my detriment at some
(09:28):
times, but I find being an openand approachable person, being
able to talk to people at alllevels these are things I
learned in my childhood, growingup in large Aboriginal
communities where you've got tocommunicate and coordinate
activities with a diverse rangeof people.
I think those skills I learnedwhen I was young that you don't
know, you're learning, you'rejust growing up have really come
(09:49):
into play in terms of myleadership and what I do as a
woman in the ICT industry.
Effective communication isreally important.
Being able to talk, as I said,to different people at different
levels is really reallyimportant.
Michael van Rooyen (10:01):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (10:01):
And being adaptable.
Michael van Rooyen (10:03):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (10:03):
Being adaptable is the most important thing.
This industry changes so fastand being able to deal with
different people, with differenttechnologies, with different
companies is really important.
So, yeah, being able to listenand learn is really important.
Michael van Rooyen (10:18):
Those are all great guiding principles,
right?
I think some people forgetthose fundamentals, and they
really work, right.
I think some people forgetthose fundamentals, and they
really work.
Uh, talking about significantchanges, I mean 25 plus years,
it's been a lot of change in theindustry, or whilst maybe in
some areas around layer one andproject management, you know,
may fundamentally still be thesame at grassroots level, uh,
(10:40):
you know what?
What are some of the trendsyou've been seeing in the
infrastructure space todaycompared to what you used to see
, you know, around networks,building, project management,
has it changed a lot or is itfundamentally the same?
Nichole Wynne (10:52):
I think the focus has changed.
It used to be just aroundhaving a network, having that
connectivity, but now I thinkthe three main drivers now are
probably speed, security andsustainability.
They're the main drivers, Ithink, the main trends that I'm
seeing driving the market whereit is now.
So certainly the speed we allwant speed.
We're not going to sit aroundand wait for screens to load
(11:14):
anymore.
It has to be readily availableto us all the time.
It needs to be secure,obviously, and that's something
that's massively in focus at themoment.
That security, that zero-trustarchitecture, that's something
that's massively in focus at themoment.
That security, that zero trustarchitecture that's being built
into every network now, was notsomething that we looked at in
the past other than if we weredoing work for defense and
sustainability, understandingthe sustainability of networks
(11:36):
and, over time, understandingfuture-proofing.
And future-proofing now goes somuch further than just
future-proofing your layer onenetwork.
It's future-proofing yourentire network and your business
and your disaster recovery, andthat yes, we talk a lot about
cybersecurity, right?
Michael van Rooyen (11:49):
So how do we secure endpoints?
How do we secure client tocloud?
How do we do all these thingsfrom a cyber point of view?
But you do touch on a very goodpoint, which is around the
physical security.
Right, I think they're surethings are secure.
But it's interesting because itreally becomes part of that
same framework where it'ssometimes missed.
(12:11):
People just assume it'sconnected.
We know that there's alsowiretapping capabilities, et
cetera, so it's something thatwould be fascinating to see.
Let's talk about thesustainability first.
Well, let's top of mind.
Over the years of these designnetworks, this cabling, et
cetera, have the vendors andwhat you've been delivering seen
(12:32):
a change in sustainability?
Is it more recyclable materials?
Is there a way they deliver itdifferently?
What's the sustainability playin the layer one space, if
anything?
Nichole Wynne (12:43):
Yeah, it's certainly part of their
marketing, whether it's part oftheir actual approach and it's
an NF, it's front of mind forevery, every piece of
infrastructure.
Not necessarily they're morefocused on I think the company.
Companies are more focused on,particularly right now, the PoE
and the impacts that cable, thatPoE has on cabling and the way
cabling was traditionally run.
(13:03):
So in bundles and we're lookingat heat dissipation and running
90 watts of power down anethernet cable, it can become a
hot and dangerous environment.
So certainly sustainabilityaround design is becoming
forefront.
So not just from a greenperspective but also from a cost
perspective.
The cost of energy is going up.
(13:25):
We all know that and we knowthat computing takes a lot of
energy.
So the sustainability of thaton the long term I think is
quite in focus type data centersusing immersive cooling
technology and and setting up uhdata centers right next to
solar power stations so thatexcess solar can be used rather
(13:49):
than sent to ground, and justlots of the focus yeah, the
focus has changed a lot fromlet's just build a data center
and we have to cool it and wehave to give it power and make
sure that the the lighting'sright yes uh to how can we make
this sustainable cost effectiveover over the long term?
Michael van Rooyen (14:04):
Yes, and we're seeing the birth of AI.
We have to talk about AI.
It's the topic of the month oryear, and edge computing is
coming.
We're seeing this as well aboutworkloads back at the edge.
How is it affecting yourinfrastructure design and
project management?
Nichole Wynne (14:18):
AI is having a massive impact, obviously, on
everything in the world at themoment, everything from kids
doing school assignments to howwe do, how we run our businesses
today.
Certainly, the edge computing,bringing that processing power
closer to the deviceEverything's in and of things
now.
I mean if I think back to whatmy house was five years ago, to
what it is now, everything'scontrolled by Google or Alexa or
(14:39):
everything's, and then when itgoes down, it's nothing but a
pain.
So, and AI now havingautomation tools and being able
to find problems before theyexist that predictability it's
changing the market.
It's changing the design ofeverything.
It's making us think about notonly what we're doing now, but
what we're going to be doing inthe future, and the
(15:00):
possibilities seem to be endless.
So I think that visionary lookahead that so many people in our
industry have is changing whatwe're doing today, because it's
going to change the futuretomorrow.
Michael van Rooyen (15:11):
Yeah, look, it's going to be interesting to
see where we land.
A lot of people are on the oneside of it's revolutionary and I
agree.
It has some real substancebehind it and we're still
working on all the use cases forit alone.
There's others who think it'smore of a dot-com bubble and I
think it'll be somewhere in themiddle right.
I think there's a lot ofinvestment, which is great, and
a lot of play, but it'sdefinitely going to see
(15:32):
interesting how it plays outChanging a little bit away from
the technology.
Now, if I think about you, know, you and I have had chats over
the time and I know that you'vealways talked about a gap
between customer expectationsand project outcomes.
What are the key factors thatcontribute to this gap and how
can organizations or peopleclose that?
Nichole Wynne (15:54):
Look, I think one of the key success criteria is
in my world from a projectmanagement perspective is early
engagement.
So what a lot of corporationstend to do from my experience is
they sell something and thenthey hand it over to delivery
and they expect it to bedelivered.
And I think a way to close thatgap between what the customer
expects and what the salespersonsold is that early engagement
(16:17):
with the PMO.
So getting the PMO involvedearly in the engagement, talking
to the customer, setting thoseexpectations, understanding what
they're required to deliver,can close that gap between what
they're expecting and whatthey're actually getting at the
end of the day.
So maintaining that stakeholdermanagement, that's not just
stakeholder management, it'smanaging the narrative, it's not
(16:39):
just.
There's a lot more to projectmanagement than just governance,
than just a PMBOK or a Prince2approach.
It's understanding people.
It's understanding, it'scontrolling the audience, it's
looking ahead to what theproblems are going to be and
then working back from there.
So yeah, it's early engagement.
I just can't emphasize enoughhow important that early
engagement is.
Michael van Rooyen (17:00):
I think about.
People talk about projectmanagement holistically.
Right, and project managementis its own industry and art on
its own, and I think about somepeople say it's pretty universal
, you can apply it to all sortsof industries and to some extent
that's correct, with Prince2and Pembok and all that as you
just touched on.
But if I think about ICTparticularly and your kind of
niche play that you've builtyour business around, you know,
(17:23):
you guys, or Nextar, is reallyfocused on the project delivery
rather than just projectmanagement.
Can you elaborate a little bitmore on what makes this approach
unique and why it's been sosuccessful for your clients?
Is that early engagement or isthere more to?
Nichole Wynne (17:37):
that there's a little bit more to it, and it's
interesting that you calledproject management an art
because a lot of people don'tpick that up Project management
is an art.
It's less of a science and moreof an art.
As we know, with art it's inthe eye of the beholder.
So it's very.
It's complex, but it's verysimple at the same time.
The reason we focus on projectdelivery rather than project
(17:57):
management.
I see project management asbeing quite structured quite
limited and it's quitegovernance focused.
When we talk about projectmanagement, when you learn about
project management, you learn alot about governance and
structure.
Delivering a project's verydifferent to that.
You can write a plan on day onethat looks completely different
on the day of delivery.
You have to be agile, and Idon't mean agile in an agile
(18:20):
delivery approach.
Here's a drawing of what anagile and putting sticky notes
on walls.
I don't mean that.
I mean you have to be able tomove with the project.
You need to understand wherethe project's going.
You need to see what's coming,and focusing on delivery rather
than just management's important.
Just enough governance.
We talk about just enoughgovernance in our organization
every day.
So the governance is important,the reporting is important, but
(18:43):
what's most important islistening and understanding
where the project's going.
To ensure that what we tend todo as a business is we look
where the project needs to beand we work backwards.
We don't work forwards.
So we work backwards with ourWBS.
We work backwards with ourtimelines.
We look at where we need to be.
We try and pick up thechallenges along the way.
None of the NICSTAR team arehighly.
(19:05):
They're not engineers, they'retechnical in their own respect.
We've got a very diverse rangeof skills in the background, but
their ability to collaborateand talk within the team to make
sure that we're picking thingsup as we go along has been
really, really important, andthat drives that delivery focus
as well.
Michael van Rooyen (19:23):
That's fantastic Because if I think
about the days I was an engineerand I'm so passionate about
engineering and of course wework closely together with some
of our engineering teams and Iknow that some of the projects
I've seen, the realdifferentiator for those
projects has been the projectmanagement right, and it's quite
interesting to see how, howpolar opposite that can be from
someone who's effective projectdelivery outcome focus versus
(19:44):
just the project management andof course, like every industry,
there's different skill sets anddifferent quality of people,
but but it's actually alwaysfascinates me how different a
project can run if it's notproject managed or at least
project delivered correctly.
It's actually very intriguing.
One of the things you talkedabout about earlier and you
might have already touched on it, but was the importance of
partnering with clients andfostering the real, effective
(20:06):
communication, and you and yourteam are very effective
communicators.
Again, is that anotherdifferent chat?
Or how do you ensure that theclient expectations are
understood and met throughoutthe project?
Is that really the seed at thebeginning?
Nichole Wynne (20:17):
That is the seed at the beginning.
Absolutely, it comes from fromthe early engagement, but it
also comes from putting theright people and putting the
right teams together.
So one thing that we're reallyfocused on at next star is
putting together good teams yesum, because if you've got a
great team, you can achieveanything.
In my experience and in myopinion, um, it doesn't matter.
What we're doing is if theteam's right.
So, um, what we see a lot inproject management is I have a
(20:40):
project manager available.
They're a project manager,they'll get the job done.
What we try to do is matchclients with the correct project
managers, with the rightexperience, with the right
attitude, to engage early, buildrelationships.
It's really important, becauseeverything's great when it's
going great.
Michael van Rooyen (20:57):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (20:57):
But if you haven't got that relationship
and you haven't got somesubstance behind what you've
been delivering, if you haven'tcelebrated the small wins, if
you haven't set achievable goalsto be able to go hey, look over
here.
Here's the great things thatwe've done, that we've achieved
together as a team.
Now let's focus on thechallenges.
We know they're going to bechallenges, but we know we can
get through because we've gotthe right team behind us.
It's really.
(21:18):
The personalities are really,really important when it comes
to delivering projects.
Michael van Rooyen (21:22):
Yeah, fair enough.
And if I think about that alone, in relation to the many
partners you've worked with ICTorganisations to deliver project
customers, is there somelearnings that could be early
adopted by the sales process,the sales person?
You know to really think aboutthat, because generally what
happens is and you touched on itearlier which is sale happens.
(21:44):
You know it comes along andthen all of a sudden it's just
the project manager's problem todeliver it.
Is there ways that the industrycould improve in relation to
that, not just in engagement,bringing project managers in,
but maybe seeding?
Maybe is it an education thatsalespeople, pre-salespeople
need a bit more betterunderstanding of the project
management methodology andadoption as part of the
lifecycle.
Nichole Wynne (22:02):
Absolutely.
I think it would be beneficialnot just for sales, but also for
engineering, one of the thingsthat I've been looking at as
part of some additional studiesthat I've been wanting to do
time being, the limiter there isbringing engineering teams
along, because what engineerstend to be really good at is
developing solutions, but beingable to deliver solutions
(22:24):
becomes harder and if theyunderstood just some basic
fundamentals around projectdelivery, I think it would help
them kind of drive timelines andunderstanding of where things
are and where challenges mightbe met, rather than just looking
at it in a very analyticalcontext.
So certainly definitely from asales perspective and definitely
from an engineering perspective.
There's some training, somevery simple, just concepts that
(22:46):
could be adopted and recognizedin both sales and engineering.
That would enhance the end userexperience basically.
Michael van Rooyen (22:54):
Right right Off the back of that, what are
some of the critical elements todelivering a successful ICT
project right and especially ifI consider some of the
complexity?
You talked about prisons beforeyou talked about transport.
Nichole Wynne (23:07):
Experience, collaboration and integration
and testing.
What we often see is there'snot enough focus on integration
and testing, having like apre-prod environment where set
up, where we can test,particularly for large
government organizations thatare in a rush to deploy for
whatever reason end of financialyear or we're going to lose our
budget, whatever it is oftenwe're at that stage of the
(23:29):
project and testing getsminimized rather than actually
focused on.
So definitely, integration andtesting is a real key success
criteria to deliveringsuccessful projects in complex
and government environments.
Having that experience andknowing what the pitfalls are,
knowing where things can gowrong, is really really
(23:49):
important and definitecollaboration collaboration with
the vendors, collaboration withthe client and just people in
the industry, understanding andknowing you know what's gone
wrong in the past, what canhappen.
Michael van Rooyen (24:02):
Yeah, it's really important.
Ultimately, all problems can besolved.
It's just a matter of workingthrough, collaborating, you know
, really getting together.
I think part of what we suffera little bit today is people
aren't wanting to have that hardconversation.
I think that people shy awayfrom that today, I don't know
why but and then they'rerelieved when they've had the
conversation.
It's actually the sky's notgoing to fall and people are
okay.
I know you deal with this allthe time in the role you have to
(24:23):
do, but it's quite intriguingto watch how kind of you know
push someone in front of youbecause you're really worried.
It's fascinating.
Nichole Wynne (24:29):
Yeah, you do need to push back, you do need to
have the ability to say no, andthat only comes from experience,
true, true?
So having the confidence inyourself to say no, it's not
going to work.
Because of these reasons, onebig project that Nixstar turned
down was the Queensland HealthPayroll upgrade.
Thank goodness, down was theQueensland Health Payroll
(24:52):
upgrade, so we were asked tohave a look at that and we
didn't feel that the testing andintegration was given enough
time and enough focus.
Michael van Rooyen (24:55):
Ironically, that's what it was and that's
what it was and fortunately wewalked away from that and that
was a good business decision.
So actually, off the back ofthat, then, what are some of the
biggest challenges you'veencountered when developing an
ICT project and I know you'veseen many over 25 years.
Yeah, but what are?
Give me some examples.
Obviously, you don't have toname customers, but what are
just some of the biggestchallenges?
Nichole Wynne (25:14):
Oh, we've had some challenging projects.
Certainly One of the biggestchallenges is getting across to
our partners sometimes, butcertainly to clients, that
project management doesn't fallinto that 20-80 rule, that 20%
should be 20% of professionalservices and that's what it
should be.
It's horses for courses.
That's one of the biggestchallenges getting across how
important project and sometimesit's not as important as other
(25:36):
times.
But certainly if there's acomplex project, it's a new or
emerging technology, it's adifficult client, it's a large
rollout.
Project management needs to begiven the focus that it deserves
to make sure that the projectis going to be successful.
But in terms of challengingprojects, well, we've delivered.
We were given the challenge andthis turned out to be one of
our best projects ever.
(25:57):
We were given the opportunityto do the design, so the layer
one design, and provide theproject management of the
infrastructure upgrade for 10correctional centres throughout
Queensland and policeheadquarters.
The only catch was it had to bedelivered within 16 weeks, oh
geez.
So very, very constrainedtimeline Took a team, a big team
(26:19):
, which I was the head of.
So I was running around prisons, which brings its own
challenges, just getting in andout, doing infrastructure design
, so walking around plant roomsand looking around residential
areas and coming up with a newnetwork.
Then to project manage theimplementation of that new
network over the top of theexisting network and then cut it
(26:40):
over, because obviously wecan't have any outages,
particularly police headquartersbeing a 24 by 7 high
availability site, they had tworisers per floor.
We had to run a completenetwork over the top of the
network and not disrupt anything.
It was a very challengingproject, just from the
day-to-day organisation andmanagement.
But one of the things that wewere given were incentive
milestones that if we met eachmilestone we would get an
(27:03):
incentive payment.
So rather than price theproject that we would, you know,
maybe get these milestones ornot, we drove the team to meet
all these milestones and thenall the milestone payments, we
used to take the entire team toVegas for 10 days, oh nice.
And that was probably not and wedidn't.
That wasn't planned in thebeginning.
It wasn't like.
This is your incentive.
(27:24):
When we delivered, everyonedelivered.
We were pulling 24-hour days,weekend work.
Everyone really threweverything at it because we just
didn't want to fail.
We were told that we couldn'tdo it, and that's like a red rag
to a bullet.
Next time, if you're told youcan't do it, we're going to do
it Fair enough.
Regardless.
So yeah, having thatopportunity and then having the
ability to reward the teamafterwards has been the most was
(27:47):
a really rewarding experienceand a great team building
opportunity, obviously.
Michael van Rooyen (27:51):
That's fantastic.
And I think just to wrap upthat area is do you feel that
sometimes project managementgets kind of shelved as, oh,
that's just a function, someonewill do it.
It's just really running a GANchart, it's reporting.
Nichole Wynne (28:05):
it's just reporting.
It's building a schedule anddoing some reporting.
It's far from that, and that'sthe difference, I think, between
that project management andproject delivery.
It's looking at the project forwhat it is and what the client
is trying to get out of it, andwithout promoting scope creep or
increasing budgets.
It's not a coin-operatedbusiness.
It's a business that drivesoutcomes, to be able to stand
(28:27):
next to your partner and say wedid this, we did this together,
and to be recognized.
One of the best things I thinkabout being in business for
yourself is the opportunity towork with who you want to work
with and not work with peoplethat you don't want to work with
, and that's given me greatscope to build strong
relationships with yourself,with other business partners,
and to be able to stand side byside at the end of the project
(28:47):
and say we did this.
yeah, it hurt but, we did it, oryou know, yeah, it was great.
Or you know, next time we'regoing to do it differently.
Life's a learning experienceand every project we learn
something more and we take thatto the next project and, yeah,
that's.
Michael van Rooyen (28:58):
That's probably the most rewarding part
yeah, and I think we touched onit earlier.
But I I I think I agree withyou and we should probably think
about how we educate sales andengineering teams about the
importance of it right, evenjust at a very high level, what
it means and why it's soimportant, so that people don't
think, oh, that's that team andjust dump on them.
You talked just in that reallykey project.
(29:19):
You talked about motivating theteam.
Sure, there was an outcome, andI know you're very driven on
outcomes.
So if I think about from aleadership point of view and I
will talk about a couple ofthings about your leadership is
you've maintained a diverse andhighly qualified team over many,
many years and you continue toattract talent in this area.
(29:39):
If I look at some of yourlatest people who have joined
your team over the last 12months so some very good talent
there.
How do you continue to fosterthat company culture and to
encourage the collaboration,respect and pride in work,
because it can be a brutal fieldto be in right Absolutely.
Nichole Wynne (29:54):
I think it comes down to those leadership
principles that we talked aboutbefore remaining authentic,
remaining in touch with the team.
Culture is a touchy word.
Culture is not something, in myopinion, that you can just say
we're going to have a cultureand the culture is going to be
this.
The culture grows with thebusiness.
Michael van Rooyen (30:08):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (30:09):
And it comes from leadership.
It absolutely comes fromleadership.
So making the team feelempowered, making them feel like
they're part of somethingrather than just an employee,
giving them the opportunity tospeak up and giving them the
opportunity to be appreciateddrives culture.
Choosing the right team is soimportant.
To be appreciated drivesculture.
Choosing the right team is soimportant.
(30:29):
We have this thing in Nextdoorwhere we say sometimes, if we
haven't worked with a personbefore and they're going to
become part of our team, we dowhat we call a try before you
buy, where we will put somebodymaybe on as a contractor for a
while and just see how they fitwith the team, because sometimes
they can have the best skillsand they might be fit for a
particular project but theymight not be fit for the team
(30:54):
and the culture.
It's really important to methat we continue that as we grow
, and the hardest thing I'vefound to manage lately is growth
and maintaining that culture,maintaining that team spirit and
team feel.
But yeah, culture's a hard one.
Like I said, it changes overtime too.
I don't think you can, as aculture, say this is our culture
and this is what the company'sbuilt on.
The company's been built onmultiple cultures over multiple
years and it's grown with thecompany and it's grown with the
people.
(31:14):
And people bring their ownflavor to the team and that
changes and you have to be openfor that.
You have to go okay, well, weused to do this, but now we do
that.
We used to do a lot of camping.
We don't do that so much anymore.
But we catch up in other waysand we do, you know, smaller
things together and we have teamcatch-ups and through COVID.
It was very, very hard tomaintain through COVID,
(31:35):
obviously, when you haven't gotthat direct contact, everybody's
not in the office and thelandscape's changed post-COVID.
People are working from homemore and you've got to be able
to foster that attitude and besupportive but also make sure
that you know the outcomes arestill being driven well.
Michael van Rooyen (31:55):
It's a challenging place for any
business manager.
I think, if I think about thosechallenges you just talked
about and we just talked aboutsome project challenges maybe
you could give me you know whathas been some of your biggest
challenges you've faced as anentrepreneur not just in a
particular project and howyou've never gathered these
challenges as you've beengrowing your business and
yourself.
Nichole Wynne (32:13):
Yeah, I think, looking back, I wouldn't have
said this probably 10 or 15years ago.
But looking back, I guessstarting a business when I was
23, 24 years old, not havingreally okay, I got exposed to
how to set up a business by somebigger corporations, but not
working within majorcorporations, not working for
government.
(32:33):
I used to joke that I was theonly person in the IT industry
that never worked for Telstraback in the day, Not actually
working in those corporateenvironments.
I didn't get a lot of exposureto how corporate environments
worked, only working with them.
So now, as we're working withbigger corporate companies,
trying to understand the lay ofthe land is a little bit more
(32:54):
difficult for me as a person andthat's a challenge as an
entrepreneur to grow withoutbeing surrounded by people and
watching how business is done.
Basically, fair enough.
So I think something I never putenough focus on, I think, when
I was younger, was mentorship,and that's something, now that
I'm older and I'm starting tobecome a mentor for some of the
(33:15):
younger people coming up in theindustry, male and female I
wished I had have actuallyreached out when I was younger
and sought a bit more mentorship.
It's a double-edged sword.
I grew to the person that I amtoday because of the struggles
that I had, but I probably wouldhave been a braver person if I
had reached out when I wasyounger and said hey, you know
more about this than me, Give mea hand.
(33:36):
And I think a lot of that.
A bit of it was.
I'm a Taurus, so a bit of itwas the bull attitude, a bit
stubborn and wanting to pave myown way, but a little bit it was
.
I was a bit intimidated.
I was a woman in amale-dominated industry and I
didn't want to put my hand upand ask for help.
Had I done that, would thebusiness have been different
today?
It probably would have been alittle more mature than it is
(33:56):
now.
I'm really starting to, inretrospect, mature the business
now, and I probably could havedone that a bit earlier if I had
reached out.
So, from an entrepreneurialstruggle, yeah, being brave
enough to put your hand up andsay, hey, you know more about
this than me give me, your handrather than struggle through.
I see my learning curve has beenreally, really steep at a lot
of stages in my career, which isa good thing and it builds
(34:18):
resilience and you know you getknocked down a peg and you go
again and that's great and Irecommend that for anybody in
industry.
But yeah, certainly that's beena struggle in industry and,
look, I don't think it's justfrom being a woman, I think it's
been just being a stubbornwoman.
Michael van Rooyen (34:32):
What advice would you give women who are
entering or trying to build acareer in this ICT space, or
just trying to get into startingtheir own business?
Is it similar to what you saidor is there other advice you
would give if you reflected onit?
Nichole Wynne (34:44):
I think, reflecting on it, my biggest
advice would be don't get intothe ICT industry to be a woman
in ICT.
Get into the ICT industrybecause you're passionate about
it.
I think there's an overemphasison promoting women in IT.
I think if you're an individualand you're good at what you do,
you should be at the forefrontof your industry, regardless of
gender.
I think that people need to bepassionate about what they do
(35:09):
and if you're passionate aboutwhat you do.
It drives you forward.
I think that's the mostimportant thing.
If it's ICT, if it's nursing,if it's engineering, if it's
whatever it is, if it's buildingbridges, be passionate about it
.
That's my biggest advice.
So, if it is your passion,absolutely open the door and go
for it, because there is so muchopportunity.
And, as I just said, I don'tthink it matters if you're male
or female.
Michael van Rooyen (35:29):
I think it gives you.
Nichole Wynne (35:30):
There's an amazing opportunity in this
industry for people to grow andto contribute and to be part of
something that's only justbeginning, in terms of what
we're doing with technology andAI and how it's driving our
everyday decisions.
Michael van Rooyen (35:45):
Last one for you is and I ask this of all
the guests who attend is tell meabout the most significant
technology change or shift thatyou've been involved with or
seen in the industry.
So it can be anything.
It doesn't have to necessarilybe ICT design or anything that
you've specialised in, but justthe biggest shift we've seen in
your time 25 years or more.
Nichole Wynne (36:04):
I think it's just connectivity.
Connectivity, everything'sconnected.
Yep, everything is driven by acomputer somewhere and
availability.
Everyone's available 24-7.
Everyone's connected 24-7.
I'm not saying it's a goodthing.
Michael van Rooyen (36:19):
No sure.
Nichole Wynne (36:19):
But it's definitely a.
Thing.
Michael van Rooyen (36:20):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (36:21):
It's definitely something that's been a big
change, a big shift.
Again, you know watching yourkids grow up knowing that when
you're a kid, if the phone rangon the wall, you wouldn't have a
conversation because the wholehouse could hear it, because it
was in the kitchen.
And now you know these kids.
They've got so many platformsthat they can communicate on.
Michael van Rooyen (36:36):
Yeah, discreetly, yeah, exactly.
Nichole Wynne (36:38):
So it's just yeah , it's connectivity.
Michael van Rooyen (36:40):
Yeah, hyper-connected, yeah,
hyper-connect.
That's a great point becauseeverything underpins that.
I mean, as you know, I'm adigital plummet heart and I just
think people still don't.
You talk about projectmanagement art.
I think connectivity as an artis just people don't see it.
It's just there and reliabilityhas changed.
You know you talk aboutavailability, but also think
about the internet as well, howreliable it's become.
It's an underlying mechanismand I completely agree, it's
(37:03):
revolutionised the world, right?
Absolutely, nicole, again,appreciate the time today.
Uh uh, thank you for coming inand spending time with me
excellent, thank you for havingme no problem.
Project management is an art.
It's less of a science and moreof an art.
As we know, with art it's inthe eye of the beholder, so it's
complex, but it's very simpleat the same time.
Delivering a project is verydifferent to that.
You have to be agile, and Idon't mean agile in an agile
delivery approach.
Here's a drawing of what anagile and putting sticky notes
(00:20):
on walls.
I don't mean that I mean youhave to be able to move with the
project.
You sticky notes on walls.
I don't mean that.
I mean you have to be able tomove with the project you need
to understand where theproject's going, you need to see
what's coming.
Michael van Rooyen (00:28):
Today, I have the pleasure in
interviewing Nicole Wynn, who isthe CEO and founder of a
company called Nickstar.
We're going to be talking todayaround all things project
management, in particular,around ICT, an art that many
don't think about in deliveringprojects, but very fundamental
to the outcome for customers.
Welcome, nicole.
Thank you, michael.
Before we get started, I'd justlike to take a moment to
(00:51):
congratulate you on yournomination in the WICTA, which
is the Women in ICT Awards.
Nichole Wynne (00:56):
Thank you In the Achievement category.
Michael van Rooyen (00:58):
Yep For many listeners who don't know, this
is an annual award that they runfor women in ICT, which I think
is fantastic, and the awardthat you were nominated for was
to recognize standout candidateswho have delivered an unrivaled
contribution in the industry,and I know you've been doing
this for a very long time, soit's a worthwhile category.
(01:19):
Part of that award is aboutevident outstanding professional
and personal achievements.
The individual individualearned a reputation as an
esteemed thought leader, hencewhy you're here today Thanks,
Nicole Following a distinguishedcareer in both business as a
business leader and a role modelfor aspiring executives, and
this award particularlyachievement categories for
candidates with over 21 years ofexperience within the ICT
(01:41):
industry.
So that speaks volumes alone.
It's been a while.
I don't know how you're stilldoing it.
Nichole Wynne (01:43):
project management afterCT industry, so
that speaks volumes alone.
It's been a while.
I don't know how you're stilldoing it.
Project management after thatlong.
Michael van Rooyen (01:47):
So again, well done and thanks for the
time today.
Nichole Wynne (01:50):
Thank you, Michael.
It was certainly humbling andvery much an honour to be
nominated, to be amongst thosekind of people.
It's not until you kind of lookback on your career that you
realise how long you've beendoing it and what you've
achieved.
So it was a good opportunity toreflect.
Michael van Rooyen (02:05):
Well again, congratulations, and well
deserved.
So in today's session I wasreally wanting people to
understand things around projectmanagement for the industry and
the importance of that.
Project management obviouslyextensively important in all
industries construction,everything like that but I think
it's an underlying thing thatpeople don't really perceive as
(02:28):
how important it is in the ICTindustry, considering how
critical it's becoming.
So, before we get started, doyou mind sharing a little bit
about your journey in the ICTindustry and what inspired you
to start NICSTAR in 1999?
Nichole Wynne (02:40):
Thanks, michael.
Yeah, I started.
I grew up in a very smallcountry town in New South Wales
called Wellington, out nearDubbo, where there's not a lot
of opportunity for ICT,certainly not back in the 80s
and 90s when I was at school.
So I decided I wanted to be acomputer programmer and at the
ripe old age of 14, I startedwriting letters to IBM in Sydney
(03:02):
requesting them to employ me.
Of course I didn't hearanything back, but that didn't
dampen my spirits.
I just maybe try and workharder to get where I wanted to
be.
I left Wellington at the ripeold age of 17 when I finished
school and went to Armidale tostudy computer science at the
University of New England.
I was there for about six oreight weeks and looked around
the room and just saw a wholebunch of A men, b, very
(03:25):
mathematical and scientific typepeople which I didn't really
fit the crowd for that and madea decision to change to
financial management andinformation technology, which
was probably the best move Iever made.
It was a business andtechnology degree that I never
finished.
However, it certainlykick-started my journey to get
me to where I am today.
(03:45):
So from there I spent a year atuni and then realized I
couldn't afford to stay there.
So I moved to Sydney and Iscored a job with a distributor
who happened to be.
I was the 12th employee of thecompany in Australia.
They're an American companythat had come out distributing
hubs at the time and switchingwas just starting off and Fiber
(04:05):
and Coppe and I got anopportunity to be involved in a
business that was a startupbusiness in Australia, which
also gave me an opportunity todo a lot of training.
So, being an American company,they're big on training.
We had opportunities to go intothe office at seven in the
morning and a vendor would comein and give us a spiel on their
product and how it works.
So I got to involve myself inthe industry at a very young age
(04:27):
.
I was only 19, just turned 19.
And it was an amazingopportunity to do that.
I worked down there for threeyears, I think, and then I moved
to Brisbane and I was going tocontinue my journey with the
distributor then.
But I got sold off to anotherstartup company, which is again
(04:48):
it's a series of fortunateevents is how I would describe
my history and my journey inthis industry.
I got to start with a cablingcompany, so layer one, an
emerging company that wasstarting their branch office.
So I got to start up a business, got to find clients, got to
employ staff, got to understandhow the admin side of a business
works, how the startup side ofa business, got to find clients,
got to employ staff, got tounderstand how the admin side of
a business works, how thestartup side of a business works
, and got to make contacts andstart to make a name for myself
(05:12):
in the industry in terms oflayer one, physical layer,
cabling and design.
From there, at the ripe old ageof 23, I decided it was time for
me to venture out and start myown business.
So Nick Starr was born.
So, against the worldly adviceof my dad who said don't do it,
I said nope, I'm going to do it.
And Nickstar was born and verymuch focused.
(05:35):
I saw a gap in the market.
Cabling was getting stronger,comms networking was getting
stronger in the market.
A lot of businesses knew theyneeded it but they didn't know
what they needed.
So I started off more in aconsultative sort of business,
working with the client, workingwith the end user to understand
what they needed and thendesigning and implementing and
managing cabling solutions forthem.
That grew into projectmanagement and took us to where
(05:56):
we are today.
So it's introduced us to a lotof interesting clients, both
government, corporate and thefinancial.
We did a lot of work withSuncorp and the universities and
Optus and, yeah, variousdifferent markets.
Michael van Rooyen (06:08):
Right, right .
I mean, look it's.
Not only do you cover projectmanagement, you are layer one is
such a thing that people don'tconsider right the importance of
that and how badly it can gowrong.
I think that's a fundamentalthing that people still downplay
.
They think it's just cables,but if you know, if you don't
get that right, everythingrelies on that right.
I mean, whilst protocols andservers and systems and networks
(06:32):
really allow for that, but it'sstill fundamentally an art on
its own right.
And I think we're seeing lessand less of it, I think.
I don't want to go into thebeehive of NBN build, but we've
seen some bad instances therewhere just layer one's not
understood properly Absolutely.
And then project manager on topof that right.
So pretty unique right.
Nichole Wynne (06:55):
Yeah, understanding that that
transport layer is integral to.
I used to have this analogywhen I first started the
business that it was likedriving a Ferrari on a dirt road
.
It doesn't matter how good thecar is, if the road's not good,
you're not going to get the bestperformance is if the road's
not good, you're not going toget the best performance.
So that's something that I'vetaken with me through the last
25 years.
That's the basis and theimportance, and so many times
when we're managing cutovers fornetwork architecture, it comes
down to layer one issues.
It's polarity issues with thefibre.
(07:16):
It's things that we can managebecause we've got that knowledge
from that transport layer.
Michael van Rooyen (07:24):
So it's very important.
And look, 25 plus years ofexperience in design and project
management.
What's with some of the keychallenges you faced early in
the career and how did youovercome them?
Nichole Wynne (07:33):
Certainly being a young woman in a very
male-dominated industry.
So, we think back to 1997, 98,99, I was one of the only women
that was working in the industry.
There were some people indefense, some women in defense
that were working in IT, butother than that there really
wasn't any women in the industry.
So I rocked up in Brisbane thisgreen young woman who really
(07:58):
wanted to make a mark in theindustry and I was knocking on
doors and I found I could openthe doors.
That was never a challenge.
I could always get a lunch oran appointment with somebody in
government or somebody incorporate or financial
industries, but being able totake home a sale or take home an
opportunity was hard if youdidn't know what you're talking
(08:18):
about.
So I found one of the biggestchallenges for me was making
sure that I was at the forefrontof the industry, understanding
technology better than what wasexpected of me, so that I could
not just open the door but Icould hold a seat at the table
and I could talk the talk andwalk the walk at the same time.
So, that was really important.
I think that was one of the keysuccess criterias for me.
Michael van Rooyen (08:37):
Oh look, it would have been right.
I mean, luckily, the industryand the world's evolved a lot
more.
You know inclusivity and theworld's evolved a lot more.
You know inclusivity, you knowseeing that, but obviously doing
it back then would definitelyhave been tough and it's a well
thought out play there to beable to talk the talk and walk
the walk as well and really,really challenging.
I still see you doing thattoday and off that.
(08:57):
If I think about how yourselfand the company has evolved over
the years, what kind ofleadership principles have
guided you to growing yourbusiness to where it is today?
Nichole Wynne (09:06):
I think the most important thing I've learned
through business and I think itjust comes from my grounding,
from growing up in a smallcountry town I think integrity
and authenticity are the maindriving factors for a successful
business and a successfulleader.
I always try and remainauthentic to myself and I follow
my gut.
I'm a very open person, whichcan be to my detriment at some
(09:28):
times, but I find being an openand approachable person, being
able to talk to people at alllevels these are things I
learned in my childhood, growingup in large Aboriginal
communities where you've got tocommunicate and coordinate
activities with a diverse rangeof people.
I think those skills I learnedwhen I was young that you don't
know, you're learning, you'rejust growing up have really come
(09:49):
into play in terms of myleadership and what I do as a
woman in the ICT industry.
Effective communication isreally important.
Being able to talk, as I said,to different people at different
levels is really reallyimportant.
Michael van Rooyen (10:01):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (10:01):
And being adaptable.
Michael van Rooyen (10:03):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (10:03):
Being adaptable is the most important thing.
This industry changes so fastand being able to deal with
different people, with differenttechnologies, with different
companies is really important.
So, yeah, being able to listenand learn is really important.
Michael van Rooyen (10:18):
Those are all great guiding principles,
right?
I think some people forgetthose fundamentals, and they
really work, right.
I think some people forgetthose fundamentals, and they
really work.
Uh, talking about significantchanges, I mean 25 plus years,
it's been a lot of change in theindustry, or whilst maybe in
some areas around layer one andproject management, you know,
may fundamentally still be thesame at grassroots level, uh,
(10:40):
you know what?
What are some of the trendsyou've been seeing in the
infrastructure space todaycompared to what you used to see
, you know, around networks,building, project management,
has it changed a lot or is itfundamentally the same?
Nichole Wynne (10:52):
I think the focus has changed.
It used to be just aroundhaving a network, having that
connectivity, but now I thinkthe three main drivers now are
probably speed, security andsustainability.
They're the main drivers, Ithink, the main trends that I'm
seeing driving the market whereit is now.
So certainly the speed we allwant speed.
We're not going to sit aroundand wait for screens to load
(11:14):
anymore.
It has to be readily availableto us all the time.
It needs to be secure,obviously, and that's something
that's massively in focus at themoment.
That security, that zero-trustarchitecture, that's something
that's massively in focus at themoment.
That security, that zero trustarchitecture that's being built
into every network now, was notsomething that we looked at in
the past other than if we weredoing work for defense and
sustainability, understandingthe sustainability of networks
(11:36):
and, over time, understandingfuture-proofing.
And future-proofing now goes somuch further than just
future-proofing your layer onenetwork.
It's future-proofing yourentire network and your business
and your disaster recovery, andthat yes, we talk a lot about
cybersecurity, right?
Michael van Rooyen (11:49):
So how do we secure endpoints?
How do we secure client tocloud?
How do we do all these thingsfrom a cyber point of view?
But you do touch on a very goodpoint, which is around the
physical security.
Right, I think they're surethings are secure.
But it's interesting because itreally becomes part of that
same framework where it'ssometimes missed.
(12:11):
People just assume it'sconnected.
We know that there's alsowiretapping capabilities, et
cetera, so it's something thatwould be fascinating to see.
Let's talk about thesustainability first.
Well, let's top of mind.
Over the years of these designnetworks, this cabling, et
cetera, have the vendors andwhat you've been delivering seen
(12:32):
a change in sustainability?
Is it more recyclable materials?
Is there a way they deliver itdifferently?
What's the sustainability playin the layer one space, if
anything?
Nichole Wynne (12:43):
Yeah, it's certainly part of their
marketing, whether it's part oftheir actual approach and it's
an NF, it's front of mind forevery, every piece of
infrastructure.
Not necessarily they're morefocused on I think the company.
Companies are more focused on,particularly right now, the PoE
and the impacts that cable, thatPoE has on cabling and the way
cabling was traditionally run.
(13:03):
So in bundles and we're lookingat heat dissipation and running
90 watts of power down anethernet cable, it can become a
hot and dangerous environment.
So certainly sustainabilityaround design is becoming
forefront.
So not just from a greenperspective but also from a cost
perspective.
The cost of energy is going up.
(13:25):
We all know that and we knowthat computing takes a lot of
energy.
So the sustainability of thaton the long term I think is
quite in focus type data centersusing immersive cooling
technology and and setting up uhdata centers right next to
solar power stations so thatexcess solar can be used rather
(13:49):
than sent to ground, and justlots of the focus yeah, the
focus has changed a lot fromlet's just build a data center
and we have to cool it and wehave to give it power and make
sure that the the lighting'sright yes uh to how can we make
this sustainable cost effectiveover over the long term?
Michael van Rooyen (14:04):
Yes, and we're seeing the birth of AI.
We have to talk about AI.
It's the topic of the month oryear, and edge computing is
coming.
We're seeing this as well aboutworkloads back at the edge.
How is it affecting yourinfrastructure design and
project management?
Nichole Wynne (14:18):
AI is having a massive impact, obviously, on
everything in the world at themoment, everything from kids
doing school assignments to howwe do, how we run our businesses
today.
Certainly, the edge computing,bringing that processing power
closer to the deviceEverything's in and of things
now.
I mean if I think back to whatmy house was five years ago, to
what it is now, everything'scontrolled by Google or Alexa or
(14:39):
everything's, and then when itgoes down, it's nothing but a
pain.
So, and AI now havingautomation tools and being able
to find problems before theyexist that predictability it's
changing the market.
It's changing the design ofeverything.
It's making us think about notonly what we're doing now, but
what we're going to be doing inthe future, and the
(15:00):
possibilities seem to be endless.
So I think that visionary lookahead that so many people in our
industry have is changing whatwe're doing today, because it's
going to change the futuretomorrow.
Michael van Rooyen (15:11):
Yeah, look, it's going to be interesting to
see where we land.
A lot of people are on the oneside of it's revolutionary and I
agree.
It has some real substancebehind it and we're still
working on all the use cases forit alone.
There's others who think it'smore of a dot-com bubble and I
think it'll be somewhere in themiddle right.
I think there's a lot ofinvestment, which is great, and
a lot of play, but it'sdefinitely going to see
(15:32):
interesting how it plays outChanging a little bit away from
the technology.
Now, if I think about you, know, you and I have had chats over
the time and I know that you'vealways talked about a gap
between customer expectationsand project outcomes.
What are the key factors thatcontribute to this gap and how
can organizations or peopleclose that?
Nichole Wynne (15:54):
Look, I think one of the key success criteria is
in my world from a projectmanagement perspective is early
engagement.
So what a lot of corporationstend to do from my experience is
they sell something and thenthey hand it over to delivery
and they expect it to bedelivered.
And I think a way to close thatgap between what the customer
expects and what the salespersonsold is that early engagement
(16:17):
with the PMO.
So getting the PMO involvedearly in the engagement, talking
to the customer, setting thoseexpectations, understanding what
they're required to deliver,can close that gap between what
they're expecting and whatthey're actually getting at the
end of the day.
So maintaining that stakeholdermanagement, that's not just
stakeholder management, it'smanaging the narrative, it's not
(16:39):
just.
There's a lot more to projectmanagement than just governance,
than just a PMBOK or a Prince2approach.
It's understanding people.
It's understanding, it'scontrolling the audience, it's
looking ahead to what theproblems are going to be and
then working back from there.
So yeah, it's early engagement.
I just can't emphasize enoughhow important that early
engagement is.
Michael van Rooyen (17:00):
I think about.
People talk about projectmanagement holistically.
Right, and project managementis its own industry and art on
its own, and I think about somepeople say it's pretty universal
, you can apply it to all sortsof industries and to some extent
that's correct, with Prince2and Pembok and all that as you
just touched on.
But if I think about ICTparticularly and your kind of
niche play that you've builtyour business around, you know,
(17:23):
you guys, or Nextar, is reallyfocused on the project delivery
rather than just projectmanagement.
Can you elaborate a little bitmore on what makes this approach
unique and why it's been sosuccessful for your clients?
Is that early engagement or isthere more to?
Nichole Wynne (17:37):
that there's a little bit more to it, and it's
interesting that you calledproject management an art
because a lot of people don'tpick that up Project management
is an art.
It's less of a science and moreof an art.
As we know, with art it's inthe eye of the beholder.
So it's very.
It's complex, but it's verysimple at the same time.
The reason we focus on projectdelivery rather than project
(17:57):
management.
I see project management asbeing quite structured quite
limited and it's quitegovernance focused.
When we talk about projectmanagement, when you learn about
project management, you learn alot about governance and
structure.
Delivering a project's verydifferent to that.
You can write a plan on day onethat looks completely different
on the day of delivery.
You have to be agile, and Idon't mean agile in an agile
(18:20):
delivery approach.
Here's a drawing of what anagile and putting sticky notes
on walls.
I don't mean that.
I mean you have to be able tomove with the project.
You need to understand wherethe project's going.
You need to see what's coming,and focusing on delivery rather
than just management's important.
Just enough governance.
We talk about just enoughgovernance in our organization
every day.
So the governance is important,the reporting is important, but
(18:43):
what's most important islistening and understanding
where the project's going.
To ensure that what we tend todo as a business is we look
where the project needs to beand we work backwards.
We don't work forwards.
So we work backwards with ourWBS.
We work backwards with ourtimelines.
We look at where we need to be.
We try and pick up thechallenges along the way.
None of the NICSTAR team arehighly.
(19:05):
They're not engineers, they'retechnical in their own respect.
We've got a very diverse rangeof skills in the background, but
their ability to collaborateand talk within the team to make
sure that we're picking thingsup as we go along has been
really, really important, andthat drives that delivery focus
as well.
Michael van Rooyen (19:23):
That's fantastic Because if I think
about the days I was an engineerand I'm so passionate about
engineering and of course wework closely together with some
of our engineering teams and Iknow that some of the projects
I've seen, the realdifferentiator for those
projects has been the projectmanagement right, and it's quite
interesting to see how, howpolar opposite that can be from
someone who's effective projectdelivery outcome focus versus
(19:44):
just the project management andof course, like every industry,
there's different skill sets anddifferent quality of people,
but but it's actually alwaysfascinates me how different a
project can run if it's notproject managed or at least
project delivered correctly.
It's actually very intriguing.
One of the things you talkedabout about earlier and you
might have already touched on it, but was the importance of
partnering with clients andfostering the real, effective
(20:06):
communication, and you and yourteam are very effective
communicators.
Again, is that anotherdifferent chat?
Or how do you ensure that theclient expectations are
understood and met throughoutthe project?
Is that really the seed at thebeginning?
Nichole Wynne (20:17):
That is the seed at the beginning.
Absolutely, it comes from fromthe early engagement, but it
also comes from putting theright people and putting the
right teams together.
So one thing that we're reallyfocused on at next star is
putting together good teams yesum, because if you've got a
great team, you can achieveanything.
In my experience and in myopinion, um, it doesn't matter.
What we're doing is if theteam's right.
So, um, what we see a lot inproject management is I have a
(20:40):
project manager available.
They're a project manager,they'll get the job done.
What we try to do is matchclients with the correct project
managers, with the rightexperience, with the right
attitude, to engage early, buildrelationships.
It's really important, becauseeverything's great when it's
going great.
Michael van Rooyen (20:57):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (20:57):
But if you haven't got that relationship
and you haven't got somesubstance behind what you've
been delivering, if you haven'tcelebrated the small wins, if
you haven't set achievable goalsto be able to go hey, look over
here.
Here's the great things thatwe've done, that we've achieved
together as a team.
Now let's focus on thechallenges.
We know they're going to bechallenges, but we know we can
get through because we've gotthe right team behind us.
It's really.
(21:18):
The personalities are really,really important when it comes
to delivering projects.
Michael van Rooyen (21:22):
Yeah, fair enough.
And if I think about that alone, in relation to the many
partners you've worked with ICTorganisations to deliver project
customers, is there somelearnings that could be early
adopted by the sales process,the sales person?
You know to really think aboutthat, because generally what
happens is and you touched on itearlier which is sale happens.
(21:44):
You know it comes along andthen all of a sudden it's just
the project manager's problem todeliver it.
Is there ways that the industrycould improve in relation to
that, not just in engagement,bringing project managers in,
but maybe seeding?
Maybe is it an education thatsalespeople, pre-salespeople
need a bit more betterunderstanding of the project
management methodology andadoption as part of the
lifecycle.
Nichole Wynne (22:02):
Absolutely.
I think it would be beneficialnot just for sales, but also for
engineering, one of the thingsthat I've been looking at as
part of some additional studiesthat I've been wanting to do
time being, the limiter there isbringing engineering teams
along, because what engineerstend to be really good at is
developing solutions, but beingable to deliver solutions
(22:24):
becomes harder and if theyunderstood just some basic
fundamentals around projectdelivery, I think it would help
them kind of drive timelines andunderstanding of where things
are and where challenges mightbe met, rather than just looking
at it in a very analyticalcontext.
So certainly definitely from asales perspective and definitely
from an engineering perspective.
There's some training, somevery simple, just concepts that
(22:46):
could be adopted and recognizedin both sales and engineering.
That would enhance the end userexperience basically.
Michael van Rooyen (22:54):
Right right Off the back of that, what are
some of the critical elements todelivering a successful ICT
project right and especially ifI consider some of the
complexity?
You talked about prisons beforeyou talked about transport.
Nichole Wynne (23:07):
Experience, collaboration and integration
and testing.
What we often see is there'snot enough focus on integration
and testing, having like apre-prod environment where set
up, where we can test,particularly for large
government organizations thatare in a rush to deploy for
whatever reason end of financialyear or we're going to lose our
budget, whatever it is oftenwe're at that stage of the
(23:29):
project and testing getsminimized rather than actually
focused on.
So definitely, integration andtesting is a real key success
criteria to deliveringsuccessful projects in complex
and government environments.
Having that experience andknowing what the pitfalls are,
knowing where things can gowrong, is really really
(23:49):
important and definitecollaboration collaboration with
the vendors, collaboration withthe client and just people in
the industry, understanding andknowing you know what's gone
wrong in the past, what canhappen.
Michael van Rooyen (24:02):
Yeah, it's really important.
Ultimately, all problems can besolved.
It's just a matter of workingthrough, collaborating, you know
, really getting together.
I think part of what we suffera little bit today is people
aren't wanting to have that hardconversation.
I think that people shy awayfrom that today, I don't know
why but and then they'rerelieved when they've had the
conversation.
It's actually the sky's notgoing to fall and people are
okay.
I know you deal with this allthe time in the role you have to
(24:23):
do, but it's quite intriguingto watch how kind of you know
push someone in front of youbecause you're really worried.
It's fascinating.
Nichole Wynne (24:29):
Yeah, you do need to push back, you do need to
have the ability to say no, andthat only comes from experience,
true, true?
So having the confidence inyourself to say no, it's not
going to work.
Because of these reasons, onebig project that Nixstar turned
down was the Queensland HealthPayroll upgrade.
Thank goodness, down was theQueensland Health Payroll
(24:52):
upgrade, so we were asked tohave a look at that and we
didn't feel that the testing andintegration was given enough
time and enough focus.
Michael van Rooyen (24:55):
Ironically, that's what it was and that's
what it was and fortunately wewalked away from that and that
was a good business decision.
So actually, off the back ofthat, then, what are some of the
biggest challenges you'veencountered when developing an
ICT project and I know you'veseen many over 25 years.
Yeah, but what are?
Give me some examples.
Obviously, you don't have toname customers, but what are
just some of the biggestchallenges?
Nichole Wynne (25:14):
Oh, we've had some challenging projects.
Certainly One of the biggestchallenges is getting across to
our partners sometimes, butcertainly to clients, that
project management doesn't fallinto that 20-80 rule, that 20%
should be 20% of professionalservices and that's what it
should be.
It's horses for courses.
That's one of the biggestchallenges getting across how
important project and sometimesit's not as important as other
(25:36):
times.
But certainly if there's acomplex project, it's a new or
emerging technology, it's adifficult client, it's a large
rollout.
Project management needs to begiven the focus that it deserves
to make sure that the projectis going to be successful.
But in terms of challengingprojects, well, we've delivered.
We were given the challenge andthis turned out to be one of
our best projects ever.
(25:57):
We were given the opportunityto do the design, so the layer
one design, and provide theproject management of the
infrastructure upgrade for 10correctional centres throughout
Queensland and policeheadquarters.
The only catch was it had to bedelivered within 16 weeks, oh
geez.
So very, very constrainedtimeline Took a team, a big team
(26:19):
, which I was the head of.
So I was running around prisons, which brings its own
challenges, just getting in andout, doing infrastructure design
, so walking around plant roomsand looking around residential
areas and coming up with a newnetwork.
Then to project manage theimplementation of that new
network over the top of theexisting network and then cut it
(26:40):
over, because obviously wecan't have any outages,
particularly police headquartersbeing a 24 by 7 high
availability site, they had tworisers per floor.
We had to run a completenetwork over the top of the
network and not disrupt anything.
It was a very challengingproject, just from the
day-to-day organisation andmanagement.
But one of the things that wewere given were incentive
milestones that if we met eachmilestone we would get an
(27:03):
incentive payment.
So rather than price theproject that we would, you know,
maybe get these milestones ornot, we drove the team to meet
all these milestones and thenall the milestone payments, we
used to take the entire team toVegas for 10 days, oh nice.
And that was probably not and wedidn't.
That wasn't planned in thebeginning.
It wasn't like.
This is your incentive.
(27:24):
When we delivered, everyonedelivered.
We were pulling 24-hour days,weekend work.
Everyone really threweverything at it because we just
didn't want to fail.
We were told that we couldn'tdo it, and that's like a red rag
to a bullet.
Next time, if you're told youcan't do it, we're going to do
it Fair enough.
Regardless.
So yeah, having thatopportunity and then having the
ability to reward the teamafterwards has been the most was
(27:47):
a really rewarding experienceand a great team building
opportunity, obviously.
Michael van Rooyen (27:51):
That's fantastic.
And I think just to wrap upthat area is do you feel that
sometimes project managementgets kind of shelved as, oh,
that's just a function, someonewill do it.
It's just really running a GANchart, it's reporting.
Nichole Wynne (28:05):
it's just reporting.
It's building a schedule anddoing some reporting.
It's far from that, and that'sthe difference, I think, between
that project management andproject delivery.
It's looking at the project forwhat it is and what the client
is trying to get out of it, andwithout promoting scope creep or
increasing budgets.
It's not a coin-operatedbusiness.
It's a business that drivesoutcomes, to be able to stand
(28:27):
next to your partner and say wedid this, we did this together,
and to be recognized.
One of the best things I thinkabout being in business for
yourself is the opportunity towork with who you want to work
with and not work with peoplethat you don't want to work with
, and that's given me greatscope to build strong
relationships with yourself,with other business partners,
and to be able to stand side byside at the end of the project
(28:47):
and say we did this.
yeah, it hurt but, we did it, oryou know, yeah, it was great.
Or you know, next time we'regoing to do it differently.
Life's a learning experienceand every project we learn
something more and we take thatto the next project and, yeah,
that's.
Michael van Rooyen (28:58):
That's probably the most rewarding part
yeah, and I think we touched onit earlier.
But I I I think I agree withyou and we should probably think
about how we educate sales andengineering teams about the
importance of it right, evenjust at a very high level, what
it means and why it's soimportant, so that people don't
think, oh, that's that team andjust dump on them.
You talked just in that reallykey project.
(29:19):
You talked about motivating theteam.
Sure, there was an outcome, andI know you're very driven on
outcomes.
So if I think about from aleadership point of view and I
will talk about a couple ofthings about your leadership is
you've maintained a diverse andhighly qualified team over many,
many years and you continue toattract talent in this area.
(29:39):
If I look at some of yourlatest people who have joined
your team over the last 12months so some very good talent
there.
How do you continue to fosterthat company culture and to
encourage the collaboration,respect and pride in work,
because it can be a brutal fieldto be in right Absolutely.
Nichole Wynne (29:54):
I think it comes down to those leadership
principles that we talked aboutbefore remaining authentic,
remaining in touch with the team.
Culture is a touchy word.
Culture is not something, in myopinion, that you can just say
we're going to have a cultureand the culture is going to be
this.
The culture grows with thebusiness.
Michael van Rooyen (30:08):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (30:09):
And it comes from leadership.
It absolutely comes fromleadership.
So making the team feelempowered, making them feel like
they're part of somethingrather than just an employee,
giving them the opportunity tospeak up and giving them the
opportunity to be appreciateddrives culture.
Choosing the right team is soimportant.
To be appreciated drivesculture.
Choosing the right team is soimportant.
(30:29):
We have this thing in Nextdoorwhere we say sometimes, if we
haven't worked with a personbefore and they're going to
become part of our team, we dowhat we call a try before you
buy, where we will put somebodymaybe on as a contractor for a
while and just see how they fitwith the team, because sometimes
they can have the best skillsand they might be fit for a
particular project but theymight not be fit for the team
(30:54):
and the culture.
It's really important to methat we continue that as we grow
, and the hardest thing I'vefound to manage lately is growth
and maintaining that culture,maintaining that team spirit and
team feel.
But yeah, culture's a hard one.
Like I said, it changes overtime too.
I don't think you can, as aculture, say this is our culture
and this is what the company'sbuilt on.
The company's been built onmultiple cultures over multiple
years and it's grown with thecompany and it's grown with the
people.
(31:14):
And people bring their ownflavor to the team and that
changes and you have to be openfor that.
You have to go okay, well, weused to do this, but now we do
that.
We used to do a lot of camping.
We don't do that so much anymore.
But we catch up in other waysand we do, you know, smaller
things together and we have teamcatch-ups and through COVID.
It was very, very hard tomaintain through COVID,
(31:35):
obviously, when you haven't gotthat direct contact, everybody's
not in the office and thelandscape's changed post-COVID.
People are working from homemore and you've got to be able
to foster that attitude and besupportive but also make sure
that you know the outcomes arestill being driven well.
Michael van Rooyen (31:55):
It's a challenging place for any
business manager.
I think, if I think about thosechallenges you just talked
about and we just talked aboutsome project challenges maybe
you could give me you know whathas been some of your biggest
challenges you've faced as anentrepreneur not just in a
particular project and howyou've never gathered these
challenges as you've beengrowing your business and
yourself.
Nichole Wynne (32:13):
Yeah, I think, looking back, I wouldn't have
said this probably 10 or 15years ago.
But looking back, I guessstarting a business when I was
23, 24 years old, not havingreally okay, I got exposed to
how to set up a business by somebigger corporations, but not
working within majorcorporations, not working for
government.
(32:33):
I used to joke that I was theonly person in the IT industry
that never worked for Telstraback in the day, Not actually
working in those corporateenvironments.
I didn't get a lot of exposureto how corporate environments
worked, only working with them.
So now, as we're working withbigger corporate companies,
trying to understand the lay ofthe land is a little bit more
(32:54):
difficult for me as a person andthat's a challenge as an
entrepreneur to grow withoutbeing surrounded by people and
watching how business is done.
Basically, fair enough.
So I think something I never putenough focus on, I think, when
I was younger, was mentorship,and that's something, now that
I'm older and I'm starting tobecome a mentor for some of the
(33:15):
younger people coming up in theindustry, male and female I
wished I had have actuallyreached out when I was younger
and sought a bit more mentorship.
It's a double-edged sword.
I grew to the person that I amtoday because of the struggles
that I had, but I probably wouldhave been a braver person if I
had reached out when I wasyounger and said hey, you know
more about this than me, Give mea hand.
(33:36):
And I think a lot of that.
A bit of it was.
I'm a Taurus, so a bit of itwas the bull attitude, a bit
stubborn and wanting to pave myown way, but a little bit it was
.
I was a bit intimidated.
I was a woman in amale-dominated industry and I
didn't want to put my hand upand ask for help.
Had I done that, would thebusiness have been different
today?
It probably would have been alittle more mature than it is
(33:56):
now.
I'm really starting to, inretrospect, mature the business
now, and I probably could havedone that a bit earlier if I had
reached out.
So, from an entrepreneurialstruggle, yeah, being brave
enough to put your hand up andsay, hey, you know more about
this than me give me, your handrather than struggle through.
I see my learning curve has beenreally, really steep at a lot
of stages in my career, which isa good thing and it builds
(34:18):
resilience and you know you getknocked down a peg and you go
again and that's great and Irecommend that for anybody in
industry.
But yeah, certainly that's beena struggle in industry and,
look, I don't think it's justfrom being a woman, I think it's
been just being a stubbornwoman.
Michael van Rooyen (34:32):
What advice would you give women who are
entering or trying to build acareer in this ICT space, or
just trying to get into startingtheir own business?
Is it similar to what you saidor is there other advice you
would give if you reflected onit?
Nichole Wynne (34:44):
I think, reflecting on it, my biggest
advice would be don't get intothe ICT industry to be a woman
in ICT.
Get into the ICT industrybecause you're passionate about
it.
I think there's an overemphasison promoting women in IT.
I think if you're an individualand you're good at what you do,
you should be at the forefrontof your industry, regardless of
gender.
I think that people need to bepassionate about what they do
(35:09):
and if you're passionate aboutwhat you do.
It drives you forward.
I think that's the mostimportant thing.
If it's ICT, if it's nursing,if it's engineering, if it's
whatever it is, if it's buildingbridges, be passionate about it
.
That's my biggest advice.
So, if it is your passion,absolutely open the door and go
for it, because there is so muchopportunity.
And, as I just said, I don'tthink it matters if you're male
or female.
Michael van Rooyen (35:29):
I think it gives you.
Nichole Wynne (35:30):
There's an amazing opportunity in this
industry for people to grow andto contribute and to be part of
something that's only justbeginning, in terms of what
we're doing with technology andAI and how it's driving our
everyday decisions.
Michael van Rooyen (35:45):
Last one for you is and I ask this of all
the guests who attend is tell meabout the most significant
technology change or shift thatyou've been involved with or
seen in the industry.
So it can be anything.
It doesn't have to necessarilybe ICT design or anything that
you've specialised in, but justthe biggest shift we've seen in
your time 25 years or more.
Nichole Wynne (36:04):
I think it's just connectivity.
Connectivity, everything'sconnected.
Yep, everything is driven by acomputer somewhere and
availability.
Everyone's available 24-7.
Everyone's connected 24-7.
I'm not saying it's a goodthing.
Michael van Rooyen (36:19):
No sure.
Nichole Wynne (36:19):
But it's definitely a.
Thing.
Michael van Rooyen (36:20):
Yes.
Nichole Wynne (36:21):
It's definitely something that's been a big
change, a big shift.
Again, you know watching yourkids grow up knowing that when
you're a kid, if the phone rangon the wall, you wouldn't have a
conversation because the wholehouse could hear it, because it
was in the kitchen.
And now you know these kids.
They've got so many platformsthat they can communicate on.
Michael van Rooyen (36:36):
Yeah, discreetly, yeah, exactly.
Nichole Wynne (36:38):
So it's just yeah , it's connectivity.
Michael van Rooyen (36:40):
Yeah, hyper-connected, yeah,
hyper-connect.
That's a great point becauseeverything underpins that.
I mean, as you know, I'm adigital plummet heart and I just
think people still don't.
You talk about projectmanagement art.
I think connectivity as an artis just people don't see it.
It's just there and reliabilityhas changed.
You know you talk aboutavailability, but also think
about the internet as well, howreliable it's become.
It's an underlying mechanismand I completely agree, it's
(37:03):
revolutionised the world, right?
Absolutely, nicole, again,appreciate the time today.
Uh uh, thank you for coming inand spending time with me
excellent, thank you for havingme no problem.
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