April 25, 2021 • 25 mins
Welcome to Security Chipmunks podcast where we talk about the development of cybersecurity skills. To stay up to date in today's world you need to be resilient, that’s why as Advanced Persistent Chipmunks we keep chipping away at it.
Today we are joined by special guest Jillene VanNostrand
Cybersecurity Talent Initiative
https://cybertalentinitiative.org/
Connect with our guest
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillene-vannostrand/
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- Join our Chipmunk community Discord server: https://discord.gg/9yfWP6evYQ
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Welcome to Security Chipmunks podcast, where we talk
about the development ofcybersecurity skills.
To stay up to date in today'sworld, you need to be resilient.
That's why as advanced,persistent chipmunks, we keep
chipping away at it.
My name is Mick Sedna-Johnson,and my co-host is Neil Smalley.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Today, we are joined by a special guest, Jalene Van
Ostrand.
SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Hello, Jalene.
Hi, Edna.
How are you?
I'm good.
Happy to have you here today.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
To get started, why don't youtell us a little bit about
yourself and what do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
Okay, I'm Jalene, obviously.
I am a mom of five.
I've been a stay-at-home mom thepast 18 years.
I just finished my lastassignment at WGU, so I should
be graduating soon.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
That's amazing.
That's quite an accomplishment.
So how quickly did you gothrough the degree program at
WGU?
I
SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
started July 1st and took December off to spend time
with my kids for the holidaysand then just finished up this
week.
So about nine months of study.
That's really fast.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Yes.
All right.
So what was the most fun partabout your school or any hobbies
that you have?
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I think the Most fun part about school has been
joining the Cybersecurity Club.
And I plug this all the time onLinkedIn because it's such a
great resource.
There's an amazing group ofpeople there.
We've done a lot of differentchallenges and CTFs and just
different group learningactivities that have really
augmented my studies and helpedme build my skills.
And it's been a great way tomake friends and have some
(01:53):
social time too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
That's awesome.
I love to hear that you'replugging the Cybersecurity Club
because as you know, I'm thevice president.
SPEAKER_02 (02:03):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
But that's where we know each other from.
So it's been great having youjoining us for competitions and
activities.
I just have to say, you've beensuch a great help with other
students, helping them to learnnew skills and encouraging them
to learn and study and buildupon what they know.
Thanks.
(02:26):
Yeah.
All right.
So how did you juggle studyingand everything else?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I am lucky.
that my kids are a little bitolder.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
My youngest is four, so shestill needs me a lot.
But the older teenagers arereally good about helping out.
My husband's been reallysupportive in helping with
household stuff so that I canfocus on school.
So I've been able to focus on itlike a full-time job and spend
(02:52):
about 40 to 50 weeks or 40 to 50hours each week on schoolwork.
So that helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Oh, wow.
So you've had a reallysupportive family and being able
to spend that much time onschool wow that's that's a lot
even just I'm just blown away bythat number because that's a lot
of brain power to get like mybrain would be fried at the end
of the day
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
so as a stay-at-home mom for 18 years my brain has
had a lot of rest and so it wasreally kind of fired up and
ready to just do something thatwas a little bit more
challenging and engaging so Ireally enjoyed it
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
good well That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Partially explains how you went through so quickly
because I think the typicalamount that they say you're
supposed to study for WGU islike minimum of 20 hours a week
or something like that.
Yeah.
If you have more time to devoteto it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
It's definitely helped in my ability to
accelerate.
And I see a lot of peoplecommenting on my pace and
wondering how they can do itthat fast.
And it really isn't that I'mdoing it that fast I'm just
doing it in smaller I guessbigger chunks maybe so instead
of spreading it out over alonger length of time because I
have fewer hours per week towork on it I kind of crunched it
(04:15):
all into a shorter span of timebut I'm still putting in just as
many hours as anyone else wouldbe and it's definitely been
challenging and very engagingbut yeah it's not I don't have
like some miracle recipe of likeboom now your brain knows
everything that's not how itworks
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Right.
If only.
SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
seriously.
Yeah, I wish I had that magicosmosis learning.
But yeah, I guess nobody doeshave that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I feel like that kind of covers one of the
questions we have, which is,what is one common myth about
your school experience that youmight want to debunk?
I think that actually kind ofcovers that a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
I do.
The other thing I've encounteredwith that, that I get fairly
often on LinkedIn, because I'vemade a lot of connections there,
is people they'll say somethingabout like how to build skills
or just the idea that becauseI'm doing it quickly, I can't be
learning very much or absorbingvery much that I'm just kind of
cramming and passing and thenforgetting it all.
(05:18):
And that's not true at allbecause I really am putting in
the hours.
It seems fast externally becausemaybe other students are only
doing six or seven hours a weekor 10 hours or whatever it is
they have outside of work andfamily obligations to put into
it and so they just see that I'mdoing it really fast and they
can't understand how I couldpossibly be retaining any of it
(05:40):
but I really am putting in youknow a lot of hours into doing
it it's not just a quickmemorize this chart take a test
and then move on and forgetabout it that's not how it works
at all
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
yeah and regarding that I would take what people
say on LinkedIn sometimes with agrain of salt
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
oh
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
yeah no I don't take it seriously at all okay yeah
everybody has advice andopinions on their If you start
to look at all of the opinionspeople have, they start to have
contradicting opinions.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
I am fantastically skilled at ignoring what I don't
want to see or hear.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
I'm not worried about that.
Speaking of LinkedIn, do youmind talking about that for a
little bit?
I've seen you've been reallygreat with making connections on
LinkedIn.
I have taken...
I know you don't like giveadvice on how to do LinkedIn,
but I have taken what I see youdo and apply that formula to my
(06:39):
own strategies and it worksphenomenally.
So do you mind talking aboutwhat you're doing on LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's not like a secret thing oranything.
I followed Neil Bridges adviceto form connections and I tried
to make sure that they weremeaningful connections, that
they were with people in thefield that have jobs that I'm
interested in or who I thinkhave knowledge that they could
share that might be interestingor who I thought might benefit
from anything I might have toshare.
And it kind of sounds prideful,but one of my passions is
(07:12):
definitely the more human sideof things and security
awareness.
And like I said, I have fivekids.
We've homeschooled throughvarious points in their
educations.
And I'm very passionate abouthelping people learn and grow
and better themselves.
And so I like sharing that andencouraging people.
I like seeing others' successesand seeing them overcome their
(07:33):
challenges.
And so that's kind of one of thethings for me with LinkedIn is I
feel really passionate about it.
I like having a space to sharethat passion and to kind of
encourage everyone else andshare in their successes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
All right.
Very good.
So the kind of posts that youpost, I've seen they bring out a
lot of engagement.
So you've got some of thatexperience with education.
And that kind of comes out inyour posts.
And you also seem to really careabout your fellow human beings.
(08:09):
So, yeah, that's been a keyingredient.
And also celebrating things.
I noticed that you celebrate alot of achievements.
And that's been fun seeing yourprogress as you go through the
program and earn certificatesand complete classes.
(08:32):
That's been wonderful to see.
SPEAKER_02 (08:34):
So my thought behind that is I didn't have the best
childhood, and I never reallyfelt celebrated or appreciated
for a long time.
And then I decided, you knowwhat?
I'm going to celebrate myselfbecause I deserve to be
celebrated.
Everyone does.
And so I think when you'reputting in all of that effort
and all of that work and reallytrying to accomplish something,
(08:55):
you should be celebrated.
You should be shouting it fromthe rooftops because what you've
done is amazing.
And I feel that way abouteverybody.
And so I try to model thatthrough my own approach to
celebrating accomplishments andachievements, because I think
it's okay to do that.
You know, it's a good thing torecognize your strengths and
what you've been able to do andwhat you've been able to
(09:17):
overcome and to just kind oftake a moment and to really
cherish that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
And I do love to
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
see everyone else's accomplishments too.
I think it's fun and it'sexciting and it's, you know, I'm
always just genuinely happy foreveryone.
So if I figure if I share more,maybe everyone else will too.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, you've gotten me to sharemore things.
Good.
For sure, yeah.
I cheer
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
every time you post something.
I'm like, yeah!
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
It's great.
I love that.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
And I'm so glad I have, like,I'm creating my own cheerleading
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
squad.
Yes, we all need one.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yes.
Gets us through
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
those hard moments.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Absolutely.
And I'm looking forward to whenI accomplish things and I can
share them with you and mynetwork and everyone now so yeah
that's been great.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
With going to school and all that I know we all end
up wanting to get jobs what isyour dream job and or what job
are you currently pursuing orwhat's going on in the
employment realm for you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
I applied for the Cybersecurity Talent Initiative
back last fall in November andit was kind of on a whim because
I was still early enough in myschooling that I really didn't
know how fast I would be able tofinish or if I would actually be
graduating in time for theirqualifications but I thought
maybe I might be able to so Iwent ahead and applied and went
(10:52):
through several interviewingphases and they actually
selected me so I have a joblined up beginning this summer
or fall I'm just waiting onsecurity clearance wow with a
government agency.
And it's gonna be this reallyamazing opportunity because I'll
have two years of being mentoredand learning various roles
within cybersecurity andfiguring out kind of where my
(11:15):
niche is.
And then they have a corporatepartnership after the government
part.
And if you elect to work withone of their corporate partners,
that entity will pay up to75,000 in student loans.
So it's an amazing opportunity.
I encourage anyone to apply ifthey think it might be a good
(11:37):
fit for them.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Did you say$75,000 in student loans?
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
Yeah, it's pretty significant.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Oh, yes, that is.
Wow.
Okay, well, that sounds amazing.
Nice.
I'm very happy for you.
That's a great opportunity.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
Thank you.
I'm really excited.
Their first cohort, they onlyselected 10 people.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
was like,
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
I didn't really think I stood a chance so I was
really amazed when I made it butyou can learn more about that at
cybertalentinitiative.org okayyeah
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
was that one of the reasons why you needed or why
you were trying to graduate soquickly it is I
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
initially so when I first signed up for school I
came into this with no priorexperience I had some college
experience before but it wasn'tat all IT related it was
languages.
I spoke Arabic when I was in thearmy and I was going to college
for Spanish and French to becomea high school Spanish or French
(12:40):
teacher kind of thing.
So none of it was reallyapplicable to this degree.
SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
And
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
I really thought it was going to take me about two
years to finish.
And then I got through the firstterm, I got a lot more done than
I thought I was going to.
And then I thought, well, maybeI can do this in like 18 months.
And then I had applied for thecybersecurity talent initiative
and they were like, well, youhave to be a senior graduating,
you know, this May or June forthis program.
(13:08):
And I thought, well, I mean, ifI push hard, I can probably do
that.
You know, it's just no harm intrying.
So that was really my biggestmotivating factors when I
actually got through theirselection process.
And they were like, you know, wereally want to hire you.
And I was like, well, I guessI'm graduating now.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
Yeah.
Very cool.
Very cool.
So, Certifications are oftentalked about.
Some people say they don'treally matter.
Some people love them, hatethem.
Anywho, I know for ourcoursework, we have to go
through lots of differentcertifications.
What was your favoritecertification or what one has
(13:49):
brought you the most benefit?
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
That's a good question.
I had the most fun studying forthe Penn Test Plus.
And it was also the mostchallenging because I came
across so much that I hadn'tlearned yet.
And so many tools that I hadn'tencountered before but it's so
fun like it's so fun so that wasreally my favorite to study for
(14:12):
as far as benefit goes I don'tknow yet because I haven't
started working but I think theyall have value and I understand
the debate betweencertifications and whether you
know they're all that or not Ithink they can be kind of a
gatekeeping tool but I thinkthey're also a good way to kind
(14:34):
of indicate what you havelearned and what knowledge you
possess and not everyone testswell and so I don't I wouldn't
say that you know they should bemandatory but I think they're
helpful
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
all very good points that does sound like a lot of
fun I'm trying to decidepersonally between going for the
SISA or the pen test plus herenext year so start
SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
with the SISA because that covers a lot of the
information that comes up onPentest Plus.
I feel like the Pentest kind ofbuilds on that and really takes
it to a much higher technicallevel and obviously is more
Pentest focused.
But I did it in the oppositeorder.
So the SISA was easier than Iwas expecting because I'd
(15:21):
already encountered so much ofit on the Pentest.
And I think if I'd done the SISAfirst, I would have been a
little bit more prepared for thePentest and not been like, oh my
gosh, this is so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Good to know.
Yeah, it was good
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
to tell you the same thing.
Do the sci-sci first.
Yep.
If you're doing both, do thesci-sci first.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Okay, so Jalene, who has beenyour biggest supporter or a
mentor or a role model over thecourse of your degree?
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
I have really looked up to Naomi Buchwalter.
I think she is doing a lot toencourage people to break in
cybersecurity and to encourageemployers to hire
non-traditional applicantsbecause they do have something
to bring to the table.
It's not about the traditionalhelp desk to making your way up
(16:18):
from the bottom ranks of IT andgoing through all those
different iterations beforeyou're finally worthy of
cybersecurity because therereally needs to be a broader
focus for cybersecurity thanthat.
And so I I've really appreciatedthe way she speaks out to
advance the field and to geteveryone, not just cybersecurity
(16:41):
professionals, engaged in beingmore aware of security issues
and taking charge of ways theycan protect themselves and just
kind of broadening that scope sothat we have more perspectives
and we have more skill sets anddifferent ways of seeing
problems and issues andapproaching how to solve them.
(17:02):
in the field and it's not justyou know a technical advancement
through the ranks but more of aholistic approach I guess
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
absolutely and I'm pretty excited I believe she's
coming to speak at the club nextmonth
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
she is they put out the form asking for
recommendations and I was likeoh you should totally as long as
I've been in the cyber securityclub we have not had a woman
speak and so that was kind ofone of my things is that I would
love to see a female incybersecurity come in and
represent.
And so I threw her name in thesuggestion bin and then Benny
(17:43):
sent me a message and I waslike, hey, can you contact her
and get her to come speak to theclub?
And I was like, wait, me?
I have to go reach out to her?
And I was like all twitterpatedand a little starstruck.
But I did it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
Very nice.
Well, that's excellent.
Oh, I'm looking forward to it.
It's going to be fantastic.
Yes.
I have tried to get womenspeakers before, so I'm glad you
were able to do that.
That's awesome.
You were trying to saysomething, Neil?
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
It's all good.
I was going to say, yeah, theinitial contact is always the
most nerve-wracking.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
Well, so I didn't have, I mean, we were connected
on LinkedIn because she acceptedmy connection request, but I
hadn't, like, spoken to her I'veseen her speak several times at
other conferences and meetingsand whatnot and she's a
fantastic presenter so that wasmy other motivating thing is I
mean she really is a greatspeaker so I kind of was like a
little bit like fangirling hardand I was like okay I can do
(18:47):
this
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
very good all right oh that's gonna be nice I'm
looking forward to that
SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
she's really neat I adore her she's gonna be great
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
all right so you had talked about the cyber talent
initiative, but outside of that,what would be your dream job in
cybersecurity?
So if you did not have this joblined up and you were going out
to look for a new job right now,what would be your dream job?
If I
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
could just pull any job out of my hat and say this
is what I want to do, I wouldlove to travel and speak to
people about security awarenessand not necessarily from the
technical standpoint but justfrom helping people understand
(19:44):
the importance of cybersecurityand that it's not just firewalls
and technical controls butthere's this whole human element
to it and I know that that's thehardest part to control for but
I kind of love that challengeand I love engaging with others
and helping them I feel verypassionate about it And so I
want to share that passion andhelp other people understand how
(20:08):
it's relatable to them and whyit's important.
Because I think if it were to betaken out of the technical
sphere and approached in a waythat is understandable for
everyone, I think we would havea lot more success in reducing
incidences from the humanelement.
(20:30):
So like people understand, youknow, you don't, go downtown and
leave your car unlocked rightyou know you lock your car you
don't go grocery shopping andjust leave everything open for
anyone to come in and riflethrough but on the internet we
have this idea that we'reanonymous and nothing will ever
happen to us and i think there'sthere needs to be a way to help
(20:50):
them understand that it's justlike you know parking your car
somewhere you can't just youshouldn't just leave yourself
open to having your identitystolen or having your
credentials stolen and that'sthat there are things you can do
that are not complicated.
They're not hard to understand.
I think they just don'tunderstand why it's important or
(21:11):
how important it is.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
All right.
Yes, that would be fantastic.
I could see you doing reallywell in a role like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
It would be fun.
I also really like socialengineering.
This is my devious side.
I like to kind of push buttonsand see what I can get away
with.
And I look very innocuous andinnocent and motherly and so I
just kind of like the idea oftrying to see what I can do and
then coming in and saying youknow you're lucky that I look so
(21:44):
innocent and I actually ambecause I mean I do recognize
you know if I looked a differentway I would be treated a lot
more suspiciously going throughsecurity checkpoints or whatever
but because I'm an older whitefemale you know nobody looks at
me and suspects that I have anykind of ill intent or nefarious
(22:05):
motives behind you know mysneaking in or coming in without
a badge or whatever it is Imight do so I kind of like to
push that button and then saylook you know you've got to
check that bias out you can'tprejudge people you need to do
your job equally with everyoneyou can't just be like oh well
you know she's not going to doanything look at her
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
so do you think this means we will see you at some
some engineering competitions inthe future.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Maybe.
You never know.
Or maybe you won't see mebecause I'll be disguised and
you'll have no idea.
We
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
won't recognize her.
SPEAKER_02 (22:48):
You'll hear about it later and then he'll be like,
no, that wasn't you.
I'll be like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
I have heard some stories of some pretty good
disguises.
That's like half the fun.
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
Yeah.
There's a dressing like it'scalled gray man method.
You dress very plain and sonobody will actually remember
you because nothing stood out.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yep.
Then there's always the superostentatious, like, if you go in
looking all fancy and wealthyand ditzy and, like, you have no
brains in your head, then thatalso would work well, especially
with certain people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yes.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
So going back into the gender thing, I think there
are a lot of advantages to beinga female in this field.
And I think sometimes thatpeople, like there is that bias
there, of course, againstfemale.
And sometimes it's a little bitmore challenging.
But there are also advantagesbecause a lot of people
underestimate us.
And so I think we can maybe getaway with a little bit more
(23:59):
because they're not suspectingit.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Yeah.
Good points.
So out of everything we'vetalked about so far, what would
be your number one takeaway thatyou'd want to leave our
listeners with?
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
As far as school goes, I think my biggest bit of
advice would be to utilize allof the resources that are out
there.
You don't have to do this in avacuum.
You're not alone.
Everyone else who's done thisbefore you and everyone who's
doing it alongside you can be afantastic resource for support
and help and differentapproaches to learning.
(24:35):
Definitely join your socialclubs because it's not just
about the social aspect.
You're going to learn a lot.
You're going to make some greatconnections.
You're going to make friends.
You're going to find out aboutdifferent learning opportunities
that you maybe would not haveencountered otherwise.
So take advantage of all ofthat, all of the subscriptions
that your schools have accessto.
I praise LinkedIn Learning a lotbecause I really have enjoyed
(24:58):
their videos the most.
I think of all of the videoswe've done for learning
resources, they're very welldone.
So, you know, the LinkedInLearning is a great resource.
Cybersecurity Club at WGU.
If you're a student there,absolutely join.
Yeah, I think that's my biggestthing.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
All right.
Thank you so much.
Where can our listeners connectwith you online?
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
You can find me on LinkedIn at jillian-vanostrand.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure having youhere today.
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Thank you for inviting me to join you.
I had fun.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
So thanks for listening to the Security
Chipmunks.
And remember, if it seemsoverwhelming, just keep chipping
away at it
UNKNOWN (25:37):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Welcome to Security Chipmunks podcast, where we talk
about the development ofcybersecurity skills.
To stay up to date in today'sworld, you need to be resilient.
That's why as advanced,persistent chipmunks, we keep
chipping away at it.
My name is Mick Sedna-Johnson,and my co-host is Neil Smalley.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Today, we are joined by a special guest, Jalene Van
Ostrand.
SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Hello, Jalene.
Hi, Edna.
How are you?
I'm good.
Happy to have you here today.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
To get started, why don't youtell us a little bit about
yourself and what do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
Okay, I'm Jalene, obviously.
I am a mom of five.
I've been a stay-at-home mom thepast 18 years.
I just finished my lastassignment at WGU, so I should
be graduating soon.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
That's amazing.
That's quite an accomplishment.
So how quickly did you gothrough the degree program at
WGU?
I
SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
started July 1st and took December off to spend time
with my kids for the holidaysand then just finished up this
week.
So about nine months of study.
That's really fast.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:24):
Yes.
All right.
So what was the most fun partabout your school or any hobbies
that you have?
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I think the Most fun part about school has been
joining the Cybersecurity Club.
And I plug this all the time onLinkedIn because it's such a
great resource.
There's an amazing group ofpeople there.
We've done a lot of differentchallenges and CTFs and just
different group learningactivities that have really
augmented my studies and helpedme build my skills.
And it's been a great way tomake friends and have some
(01:53):
social time too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
That's awesome.
I love to hear that you'replugging the Cybersecurity Club
because as you know, I'm thevice president.
SPEAKER_02 (02:03):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
But that's where we know each other from.
So it's been great having youjoining us for competitions and
activities.
I just have to say, you've beensuch a great help with other
students, helping them to learnnew skills and encouraging them
to learn and study and buildupon what they know.
Thanks.
(02:26):
Yeah.
All right.
So how did you juggle studyingand everything else?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
I am lucky.
that my kids are a little bitolder.
My oldest will be 18 next month.
My youngest is four, so shestill needs me a lot.
But the older teenagers arereally good about helping out.
My husband's been reallysupportive in helping with
household stuff so that I canfocus on school.
So I've been able to focus on itlike a full-time job and spend
(02:52):
about 40 to 50 weeks or 40 to 50hours each week on schoolwork.
So that helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Oh, wow.
So you've had a reallysupportive family and being able
to spend that much time onschool wow that's that's a lot
even just I'm just blown away bythat number because that's a lot
of brain power to get like mybrain would be fried at the end
of the day
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
so as a stay-at-home mom for 18 years my brain has
had a lot of rest and so it wasreally kind of fired up and
ready to just do something thatwas a little bit more
challenging and engaging so Ireally enjoyed it
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
good well That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Partially explains how you went through so quickly
because I think the typicalamount that they say you're
supposed to study for WGU islike minimum of 20 hours a week
or something like that.
Yeah.
If you have more time to devoteto it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:52):
It's definitely helped in my ability to
accelerate.
And I see a lot of peoplecommenting on my pace and
wondering how they can do itthat fast.
And it really isn't that I'mdoing it that fast I'm just
doing it in smaller I guessbigger chunks maybe so instead
of spreading it out over alonger length of time because I
have fewer hours per week towork on it I kind of crunched it
(04:15):
all into a shorter span of timebut I'm still putting in just as
many hours as anyone else wouldbe and it's definitely been
challenging and very engagingbut yeah it's not I don't have
like some miracle recipe of likeboom now your brain knows
everything that's not how itworks
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Right.
If only.
SPEAKER_02 (04:36):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
seriously.
Yeah, I wish I had that magicosmosis learning.
But yeah, I guess nobody doeshave that.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I feel like that kind of covers one of the
questions we have, which is,what is one common myth about
your school experience that youmight want to debunk?
I think that actually kind ofcovers that a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
I do.
The other thing I've encounteredwith that, that I get fairly
often on LinkedIn, because I'vemade a lot of connections there,
is people they'll say somethingabout like how to build skills
or just the idea that becauseI'm doing it quickly, I can't be
learning very much or absorbingvery much that I'm just kind of
cramming and passing and thenforgetting it all.
(05:18):
And that's not true at allbecause I really am putting in
the hours.
It seems fast externally becausemaybe other students are only
doing six or seven hours a weekor 10 hours or whatever it is
they have outside of work andfamily obligations to put into
it and so they just see that I'mdoing it really fast and they
can't understand how I couldpossibly be retaining any of it
(05:40):
but I really am putting in youknow a lot of hours into doing
it it's not just a quickmemorize this chart take a test
and then move on and forgetabout it that's not how it works
at all
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
yeah and regarding that I would take what people
say on LinkedIn sometimes with agrain of salt
SPEAKER_02 (05:56):
oh
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
yeah no I don't take it seriously at all okay yeah
everybody has advice andopinions on their If you start
to look at all of the opinionspeople have, they start to have
contradicting opinions.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
I am fantastically skilled at ignoring what I don't
want to see or hear.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
I'm not worried about that.
Speaking of LinkedIn, do youmind talking about that for a
little bit?
I've seen you've been reallygreat with making connections on
LinkedIn.
I have taken...
I know you don't like giveadvice on how to do LinkedIn,
but I have taken what I see youdo and apply that formula to my
(06:39):
own strategies and it worksphenomenally.
So do you mind talking aboutwhat you're doing on LinkedIn?
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's not like a secret thing oranything.
I followed Neil Bridges adviceto form connections and I tried
to make sure that they weremeaningful connections, that
they were with people in thefield that have jobs that I'm
interested in or who I thinkhave knowledge that they could
share that might be interestingor who I thought might benefit
from anything I might have toshare.
And it kind of sounds prideful,but one of my passions is
(07:12):
definitely the more human sideof things and security
awareness.
And like I said, I have fivekids.
We've homeschooled throughvarious points in their
educations.
And I'm very passionate abouthelping people learn and grow
and better themselves.
And so I like sharing that andencouraging people.
I like seeing others' successesand seeing them overcome their
(07:33):
challenges.
And so that's kind of one of thethings for me with LinkedIn is I
feel really passionate about it.
I like having a space to sharethat passion and to kind of
encourage everyone else andshare in their successes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
All right.
Very good.
So the kind of posts that youpost, I've seen they bring out a
lot of engagement.
So you've got some of thatexperience with education.
And that kind of comes out inyour posts.
And you also seem to really careabout your fellow human beings.
(08:09):
So, yeah, that's been a keyingredient.
And also celebrating things.
I noticed that you celebrate alot of achievements.
And that's been fun seeing yourprogress as you go through the
program and earn certificatesand complete classes.
(08:32):
That's been wonderful to see.
SPEAKER_02 (08:34):
So my thought behind that is I didn't have the best
childhood, and I never reallyfelt celebrated or appreciated
for a long time.
And then I decided, you knowwhat?
I'm going to celebrate myselfbecause I deserve to be
celebrated.
Everyone does.
And so I think when you'reputting in all of that effort
and all of that work and reallytrying to accomplish something,
(08:55):
you should be celebrated.
You should be shouting it fromthe rooftops because what you've
done is amazing.
And I feel that way abouteverybody.
And so I try to model thatthrough my own approach to
celebrating accomplishments andachievements, because I think
it's okay to do that.
You know, it's a good thing torecognize your strengths and
what you've been able to do andwhat you've been able to
(09:17):
overcome and to just kind oftake a moment and to really
cherish that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
And I do love to
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
see everyone else's accomplishments too.
I think it's fun and it'sexciting and it's, you know, I'm
always just genuinely happy foreveryone.
So if I figure if I share more,maybe everyone else will too.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, you've gotten me to sharemore things.
Good.
For sure, yeah.
I cheer
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
every time you post something.
I'm like, yeah!
SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
It's great.
I love that.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
And I'm so glad I have, like,I'm creating my own cheerleading
SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
squad.
Yes, we all need one.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yes.
Gets us through
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
those hard moments.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
Absolutely.
And I'm looking forward to whenI accomplish things and I can
share them with you and mynetwork and everyone now so yeah
that's been great.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
With going to school and all that I know we all end
up wanting to get jobs what isyour dream job and or what job
are you currently pursuing orwhat's going on in the
employment realm for you?
SPEAKER_02 (10:27):
I applied for the Cybersecurity Talent Initiative
back last fall in November andit was kind of on a whim because
I was still early enough in myschooling that I really didn't
know how fast I would be able tofinish or if I would actually be
graduating in time for theirqualifications but I thought
maybe I might be able to so Iwent ahead and applied and went
(10:52):
through several interviewingphases and they actually
selected me so I have a joblined up beginning this summer
or fall I'm just waiting onsecurity clearance wow with a
government agency.
And it's gonna be this reallyamazing opportunity because I'll
have two years of being mentoredand learning various roles
within cybersecurity andfiguring out kind of where my
(11:15):
niche is.
And then they have a corporatepartnership after the government
part.
And if you elect to work withone of their corporate partners,
that entity will pay up to75,000 in student loans.
So it's an amazing opportunity.
I encourage anyone to apply ifthey think it might be a good
(11:37):
fit for them.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Did you say$75,000 in student loans?
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
Yeah, it's pretty significant.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Oh, yes, that is.
Wow.
Okay, well, that sounds amazing.
Nice.
I'm very happy for you.
That's a great opportunity.
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
Thank you.
I'm really excited.
Their first cohort, they onlyselected 10 people.
So I
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
was like,
SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
I didn't really think I stood a chance so I was
really amazed when I made it butyou can learn more about that at
cybertalentinitiative.org okayyeah
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
was that one of the reasons why you needed or why
you were trying to graduate soquickly it is I
SPEAKER_02 (12:19):
initially so when I first signed up for school I
came into this with no priorexperience I had some college
experience before but it wasn'tat all IT related it was
languages.
I spoke Arabic when I was in thearmy and I was going to college
for Spanish and French to becomea high school Spanish or French
(12:40):
teacher kind of thing.
So none of it was reallyapplicable to this degree.
SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
And
SPEAKER_02 (12:45):
I really thought it was going to take me about two
years to finish.
And then I got through the firstterm, I got a lot more done than
I thought I was going to.
And then I thought, well, maybeI can do this in like 18 months.
And then I had applied for thecybersecurity talent initiative
and they were like, well, youhave to be a senior graduating,
you know, this May or June forthis program.
(13:08):
And I thought, well, I mean, ifI push hard, I can probably do
that.
You know, it's just no harm intrying.
So that was really my biggestmotivating factors when I
actually got through theirselection process.
And they were like, you know, wereally want to hire you.
And I was like, well, I guessI'm graduating now.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
Yeah.
Very cool.
Very cool.
So, Certifications are oftentalked about.
Some people say they don'treally matter.
Some people love them, hatethem.
Anywho, I know for ourcoursework, we have to go
through lots of differentcertifications.
What was your favoritecertification or what one has
(13:49):
brought you the most benefit?
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
That's a good question.
I had the most fun studying forthe Penn Test Plus.
And it was also the mostchallenging because I came
across so much that I hadn'tlearned yet.
And so many tools that I hadn'tencountered before but it's so
fun like it's so fun so that wasreally my favorite to study for
(14:12):
as far as benefit goes I don'tknow yet because I haven't
started working but I think theyall have value and I understand
the debate betweencertifications and whether you
know they're all that or not Ithink they can be kind of a
gatekeeping tool but I thinkthey're also a good way to kind
(14:34):
of indicate what you havelearned and what knowledge you
possess and not everyone testswell and so I don't I wouldn't
say that you know they should bemandatory but I think they're
helpful
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
all very good points that does sound like a lot of
fun I'm trying to decidepersonally between going for the
SISA or the pen test plus herenext year so start
SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
with the SISA because that covers a lot of the
information that comes up onPentest Plus.
I feel like the Pentest kind ofbuilds on that and really takes
it to a much higher technicallevel and obviously is more
Pentest focused.
But I did it in the oppositeorder.
So the SISA was easier than Iwas expecting because I'd
(15:21):
already encountered so much ofit on the Pentest.
And I think if I'd done the SISAfirst, I would have been a
little bit more prepared for thePentest and not been like, oh my
gosh, this is so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Good to know.
Yeah, it was good
SPEAKER_01 (15:34):
to tell you the same thing.
Do the sci-sci first.
Yep.
If you're doing both, do thesci-sci first.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Okay, so Jalene, who has beenyour biggest supporter or a
mentor or a role model over thecourse of your degree?
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
I have really looked up to Naomi Buchwalter.
I think she is doing a lot toencourage people to break in
cybersecurity and to encourageemployers to hire
non-traditional applicantsbecause they do have something
to bring to the table.
It's not about the traditionalhelp desk to making your way up
(16:18):
from the bottom ranks of IT andgoing through all those
different iterations beforeyou're finally worthy of
cybersecurity because therereally needs to be a broader
focus for cybersecurity thanthat.
And so I I've really appreciatedthe way she speaks out to
advance the field and to geteveryone, not just cybersecurity
(16:41):
professionals, engaged in beingmore aware of security issues
and taking charge of ways theycan protect themselves and just
kind of broadening that scope sothat we have more perspectives
and we have more skill sets anddifferent ways of seeing
problems and issues andapproaching how to solve them.
(17:02):
in the field and it's not justyou know a technical advancement
through the ranks but more of aholistic approach I guess
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
absolutely and I'm pretty excited I believe she's
coming to speak at the club nextmonth
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
she is they put out the form asking for
recommendations and I was likeoh you should totally as long as
I've been in the cyber securityclub we have not had a woman
speak and so that was kind ofone of my things is that I would
love to see a female incybersecurity come in and
represent.
And so I threw her name in thesuggestion bin and then Benny
(17:43):
sent me a message and I waslike, hey, can you contact her
and get her to come speak to theclub?
And I was like, wait, me?
I have to go reach out to her?
And I was like all twitterpatedand a little starstruck.
But I did it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
Very nice.
Well, that's excellent.
Oh, I'm looking forward to it.
It's going to be fantastic.
Yes.
I have tried to get womenspeakers before, so I'm glad you
were able to do that.
That's awesome.
You were trying to saysomething, Neil?
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
It's all good.
I was going to say, yeah, theinitial contact is always the
most nerve-wracking.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
Well, so I didn't have, I mean, we were connected
on LinkedIn because she acceptedmy connection request, but I
hadn't, like, spoken to her I'veseen her speak several times at
other conferences and meetingsand whatnot and she's a
fantastic presenter so that wasmy other motivating thing is I
mean she really is a greatspeaker so I kind of was like a
little bit like fangirling hardand I was like okay I can do
(18:47):
this
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
very good all right oh that's gonna be nice I'm
looking forward to that
SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
she's really neat I adore her she's gonna be great
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
all right so you had talked about the cyber talent
initiative, but outside of that,what would be your dream job in
cybersecurity?
So if you did not have this joblined up and you were going out
to look for a new job right now,what would be your dream job?
If I
SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
could just pull any job out of my hat and say this
is what I want to do, I wouldlove to travel and speak to
people about security awarenessand not necessarily from the
technical standpoint but justfrom helping people understand
(19:44):
the importance of cybersecurityand that it's not just firewalls
and technical controls butthere's this whole human element
to it and I know that that's thehardest part to control for but
I kind of love that challengeand I love engaging with others
and helping them I feel verypassionate about it And so I
want to share that passion andhelp other people understand how
(20:08):
it's relatable to them and whyit's important.
Because I think if it were to betaken out of the technical
sphere and approached in a waythat is understandable for
everyone, I think we would havea lot more success in reducing
incidences from the humanelement.
(20:30):
So like people understand, youknow, you don't, go downtown and
leave your car unlocked rightyou know you lock your car you
don't go grocery shopping andjust leave everything open for
anyone to come in and riflethrough but on the internet we
have this idea that we'reanonymous and nothing will ever
happen to us and i think there'sthere needs to be a way to help
(20:50):
them understand that it's justlike you know parking your car
somewhere you can't just youshouldn't just leave yourself
open to having your identitystolen or having your
credentials stolen and that'sthat there are things you can do
that are not complicated.
They're not hard to understand.
I think they just don'tunderstand why it's important or
(21:11):
how important it is.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
All right.
Yes, that would be fantastic.
I could see you doing reallywell in a role like that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
It would be fun.
I also really like socialengineering.
This is my devious side.
I like to kind of push buttonsand see what I can get away
with.
And I look very innocuous andinnocent and motherly and so I
just kind of like the idea oftrying to see what I can do and
then coming in and saying youknow you're lucky that I look so
(21:44):
innocent and I actually ambecause I mean I do recognize
you know if I looked a differentway I would be treated a lot
more suspiciously going throughsecurity checkpoints or whatever
but because I'm an older whitefemale you know nobody looks at
me and suspects that I have anykind of ill intent or nefarious
(22:05):
motives behind you know mysneaking in or coming in without
a badge or whatever it is Imight do so I kind of like to
push that button and then saylook you know you've got to
check that bias out you can'tprejudge people you need to do
your job equally with everyoneyou can't just be like oh well
you know she's not going to doanything look at her
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
so do you think this means we will see you at some
some engineering competitions inthe future.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
Maybe.
You never know.
Or maybe you won't see mebecause I'll be disguised and
you'll have no idea.
We
SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
won't recognize her.
SPEAKER_02 (22:48):
You'll hear about it later and then he'll be like,
no, that wasn't you.
I'll be like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
I have heard some stories of some pretty good
disguises.
That's like half the fun.
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
Yeah.
There's a dressing like it'scalled gray man method.
You dress very plain and sonobody will actually remember
you because nothing stood out.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Yep.
Then there's always the superostentatious, like, if you go in
looking all fancy and wealthyand ditzy and, like, you have no
brains in your head, then thatalso would work well, especially
with certain people.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yes.
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (23:38):
So going back into the gender thing, I think there
are a lot of advantages to beinga female in this field.
And I think sometimes thatpeople, like there is that bias
there, of course, againstfemale.
And sometimes it's a little bitmore challenging.
But there are also advantagesbecause a lot of people
underestimate us.
And so I think we can maybe getaway with a little bit more
(23:59):
because they're not suspectingit.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Yeah.
Good points.
So out of everything we'vetalked about so far, what would
be your number one takeaway thatyou'd want to leave our
listeners with?
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
As far as school goes, I think my biggest bit of
advice would be to utilize allof the resources that are out
there.
You don't have to do this in avacuum.
You're not alone.
Everyone else who's done thisbefore you and everyone who's
doing it alongside you can be afantastic resource for support
and help and differentapproaches to learning.
(24:35):
Definitely join your socialclubs because it's not just
about the social aspect.
You're going to learn a lot.
You're going to make some greatconnections.
You're going to make friends.
You're going to find out aboutdifferent learning opportunities
that you maybe would not haveencountered otherwise.
So take advantage of all ofthat, all of the subscriptions
that your schools have accessto.
I praise LinkedIn Learning a lotbecause I really have enjoyed
(24:58):
their videos the most.
I think of all of the videoswe've done for learning
resources, they're very welldone.
So, you know, the LinkedInLearning is a great resource.
Cybersecurity Club at WGU.
If you're a student there,absolutely join.
Yeah, I think that's my biggestthing.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
All right.
Thank you so much.
Where can our listeners connectwith you online?
SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
You can find me on LinkedIn at jillian-vanostrand.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure having youhere today.
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Thank you for inviting me to join you.
I had fun.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
So thanks for listening to the Security
Chipmunks.
And remember, if it seemsoverwhelming, just keep chipping
away at it
UNKNOWN (25:37):
Thank you.
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