July 28, 2025 • 39 mins
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In this compelling episode of the Security Halt Podcast, we delve into the profound topics of PTSD and mental health, exploring their significant impacts on individuals and communities. Join us as Dr. Kate Pate shares her insights and experiences, shedding light on the often-overlooked aspects of these conditions. Through personal stories and expert analysis, we aim to foster understanding and provide hope for those affected. Tune in to discover how knowledge and empathy can pave the way for healing and resilience..
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
look at us technology , technology blessing and a
curse oh man, yeah, I deal withthis at least once once a week,
um, but hey, thank you,riverside I think, thank you, I
think I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think maybe I don't know, but yeah, think, maybe I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
But yeah, once you get started working with the
individuals and and you gainrapport, they trust you.
It's easy to see the sameissues pop up from person to
person.
I mean, when I was stillstruggling with everything, I
had the same view.
I had the same view that only Ihad this.
That I was weird.
How dare I have any sort ofissues?
I must be messed up.
Everything.
I had the same view.
I had the same view that only Ihad this.
(00:45):
That was weird.
How dare I uh have any sort ofissues?
I must be messed up.
Everybody else is fine.
What the hell is wrong?
And I would?
I have to imagine that when youare armed with knowledge, where
you have information, you startthinking, okay, let's get
butcher block out, let's startwriting some stuff out, because
something doesn't make sense.
All these individuals have thesame thing.
(01:07):
Where did you start?
How did you go make that switchfrom worrying?
You know you're working withindividuals trying to make
changes in T, triple C inadvance.
You know great new things.
How did you clear the slate andsay you know what I got?
There's?
This seems pretty important.
This seems like nobody'stalking about it because 2015,
(01:27):
2016,.
Nobody was talking about it.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
No, yeah, I mean it was kind of a gradual thing.
Over the years I just startedto become more and more
concerned.
And you know, I grew up withthree older brothers and so a
lot of the community members Iinteracted with were men.
Of course there's women,brothers, and so a lot of the
community members I interactedwith were men.
Of course there's women too,but in a lot of the spaces that
I was working I didn't reallysee very many women, but a lot
(01:53):
of the dudes that I was around,honestly it kind of felt like
brothers to me in a lot of ways,like people just kind of
brought me into the mix and likekind of treated me like a
little sister in a certain senseand it created a sense of like
connection with the community.
That was, I think, reallyunique for me.
But also I'm, you know, I'mtough in a lot of ways but I
(02:18):
have a pretty big bleeding heart, that you know.
When I see people that I careabout suffering, it really
bothers me and it compels me towant to do something if I can.
Sometimes it's just literallybeing with a person and sitting
there and there's nothing youcan do to fix it, but if there's
something you can do to help orto fix anything that's going on
(02:41):
, why would you not?
And so for me, as I started tokind of, you know, get drawn
into the community, that Istarted to feel really just
passionate about helping.
My brother was a part of thiscommunity at the time.
It was just like and again, youknow, he and I never really
talked about this kind of thingbecause it, you know, although
I'm his sister, we didn't.
(03:02):
You know, he wasn't sharinganything going on with him like
that, just like very few peoplein the community were.
But I think that as I startedto see that I just was like you
know what, there's enough, Iwant to be able to offer
something.
So as the years kind ofprogressed, I started to dive
(03:32):
more and more into the researchon.
I had already my background.
I had done a postdoc in mygraduate degree was in
respiratory neurophysiology andthen as a postdoc I studied
traumatic brain injury andspinal cord injury.
So I had a lot of like thephysical health knowledge and
relevant information for TBI.
(03:52):
But what I was missing was themental health piece.
I didn't understand PTSD.
I didn't really know what thatwas.
I didn't really understand whatdepression was.
I didn't understand all theseother things that people were
experiencing.
What depression was?
I didn't understand all theseother things that people were
experiencing.
But I started, as Iinvestigated that I started to
see the link between braininjury, chronic stress, toxic
(04:13):
exposures and a lot of the youknow, the subjective experiences
that people were feeling.
And so I tried to explain thoselinks for my friends.
I tried to share more and moreabout what I understood or what
the pieces of the puzzle I sawfitting together.
And then I looked intotreatments.
Well, what can we do aboutthese things?
And is our understanding ofsomething like PTSD even really
(04:35):
helpful for the community?
And then Chris Free andcolleagues eventually came out
with Operator Syndrome the paper, the research paper.
I think it was 2020.
We were in the pandemic.
It might have been 2021, aroundthere.
You know, we were kind ofcoming out of the pandemic and
it was pretty impactful, but alot of people hadn't read it.
(04:58):
It was in the you know,peer-reviewed literature, so you
know your average lay personisn't going to go find that and
read it.
And so I found this paper.
I didn't know Chris at the time.
I found this paper and then Isaw some other write-ups around
the same kind of thing.
(05:19):
People may have remembered theModern Warfare Destroys Brains
document that came out as welland that was kind of referencing
operator syndrome.
They kind of referenced thatcluster of symptoms that you
know people were experiencingand this had a term all of a
sudden.
And so I remember creating onInstagram.
(05:41):
I put, basically it was likeoperator syndrome.
And then I put together thelist of what Chris and his
colleagues found to becommonalities as part of
operator syndrome and I justmade a quick little image, put
it on Instagram and it blew up.
I shared it on LinkedIn and itblew up and it was like wait,
(06:02):
there's a term, oh my gosh.
And people were now all of asudden checking boxes that they
realized, oh my gosh, this is anactual um like thing that
somebody studied.
So I'm not the only one Cause,like you know, in my
conversations with the community, I would tell people you're
saying the same things thateverybody else is saying.
(06:24):
You're not alone.
I want you to know that this isreal and many people are also
going through the same thing andpeople hear it, but it doesn't
really land.
Sometimes they're like yeah,yeah, you're just like blowing
smoke trying to make me feelbetter.
Some of them took it to heart,but some of them really just
didn't grasp that that was thetruth until this paper came out
(06:47):
and until people started talkingabout it.
And then it was like there'spermission now to say something
about this.
And that was changing for somany people and I have a
love-hate relationship withterminology because, like this,
this is a perfect example of itgave people permission.
(07:09):
They now had something to graspand wrap their arms around.
It made it real and that was so, so important for the community
in so many ways.
But the flip side of that is nowit's something people are
holding on to of.
I'm expecting, to quote unquotehave operator syndrome or
(07:33):
everything that they experienceis now under the umbrella of
that, and it's all related tooperator.
It's like same thing, you seeit, with post-traumatic stress
disorder.
When somebody gets thatdiagnosis, it becomes almost
like an identifier for them anda part of who they are, rather
than a thing that they'reexperiencing.
(07:55):
And sometimes we can get hungup on the labels and I don't
know in the long term if that'shelpful for the individual.
I think as scientists andclinicians, we have to have
something that's defined inorder to study it right.
Like we can't, we have to agreeupon something to study it
(08:29):
After the initial relief.
If they don't then move throughit and beyond it, it can be
something that they kind of holdon to and it becomes maybe more
integrated with who they thinkthey are instead of something
that they're experiencing.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Absolutely.
It's not a badge of courage.
It's not something to put onlike a warm, comforting jacket.
Badge of courage.
It's not something to put onlike a warm, comforting jacket.
It's just like the moniker ofPTSD and disgruntled veteran.
These aren't things that youidentify with as your new
identity.
You're giving the enemy a name.
Now you know what you'refighting.
Go after it.
Highlight the paper, understandevery detail about the enemy
(09:04):
and understand where you can goto get help.
These diagnoses are incrediblyhelpful because they help you
understand that you're not crazy.
What you're going through nowhas definitions and terms.
Well, look how they can improve.
Look at all the things you cando to improve.
And the thing that I love nowis is before and to some extent
(09:25):
still, the main thing thatyou're going to be funneled
towards or pushed towards ispharmaceutical intervention.
And look, I understand whateveryou need to get started on the
road to journey.
I had to start with SSRIs.
I don't advocate for them.
I don't advocate for long-termpharmaceutical intervention, but
I'm not going to sit there andsay, like the guy that's dealing
(09:47):
with something right now, ifyou need it and that's where
your journey begins.
That's where your journeybegins, but it doesn't have to
be the end all of your journey.
Now more than ever, we haveadvocates talking about the
importance of everything to getthe mind, body and spirit back
on track, and it really has tobe multiple modalities, not just
one thing.
Don't just cling desperately toone thing.
Be brave, be bold, be willingto look at every aspect.
(10:11):
I was the asshole that saidmindfulness wasn't gonna help me
.
I was a complete friggingasshole to that doctor at the
Intrepid Spirit.
And what did I get?
My certification in Mindfulness?
What do I teach and coach withMindfulness?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's a beautiful story.
When you get down to it, it's abeautiful story.
I was dealing with incrediblepain, suffering and misery and I
wanted all I wanted wassurgical intervention and the
doctor told me maybe, maybe thepain will not go away.
Are you willing to look at thatand just understand it?
I'm like, no, fuck you.
Make the pain go away, carve meup, cut out my you know, make
(10:49):
like as if they could just cutthe pain out, and I told her
that she was a complete idiot.
That was stupid.
I don't believe in mindfulness.
And here I am, years later,understanding that, yeah, it
works and and that's how our wehave to change as individuals.
Not just the scientists and thedoctors are helping us, but
individual, the patient.
If you're suffering right nowand you're being an asshole,
(11:12):
take a look in the mirror.
Man.
Like.
Sometimes we get in the way ofour own healing, like on this
journey, when you start lookingat the enemy, whether it's TBI,
moral injury, what were some ofthe things that you started
leaning towards trying toexplore more of?
To give guys some of thatpersonal autonomy for their own
healing journey, because a lotof times, like you know, people
(11:34):
still don't look at journalingand gratitude.
These things are important forlife, but turns out they are,
and there's so many differentthings out there that we can do
to take ownership of the problem.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, and it's.
It's.
You know it's funny, it's notunique to this community that
desire to want to have like abig change.
Now it's, you know, I mean it'shuman nature.
We like the small, daily,incremental practices seem like.
You know, I don't need toinvest in that.
I want something that's goingto make me feel very different
(12:07):
in a very short period of timeand so a lot.
You know I don't need to investin that.
I want something that's goingto make me feel very different
in a very short period of timeand so a lot.
You know, as human beings, wediscount.
Okay, did you prioritize sleepand get good sleep and work on
sleep hygiene?
Do you eat well?
Do you move?
Do you get outside in sunlight?
Do you journal, do you talkabout?
You know, like all thesedifferent things and people like
no, no, no, yep, next, likenext tool, please, and um, and
(12:28):
so I I try to take an approach,cause I have worked with people
across the spectrum of wherethey're at in their career, what
they're willing to do, levelsof desperation versus like real
hope and um, energy andmotivation to put small
practices into place.
I mean, you know how it is whenyou're in that place and someone
(12:50):
, you just everything hurts.
You're angry.
You know you don't feel likeyourself when someone tells you
to journal and be mindful.
You're like.
You know it's, it's I get itlike it's hard.
You know it's like whensomeone's in a depression and
somebody comes along like justbe happy.
You know it's like whensomeone's into a depression and
somebody comes along and like,just be happy.
You know, and it's just.
That's not how we work.
(13:11):
So I try to take the approachof like.
When I work with people, I tryto assess where they're at and
what kind of phase they're in.
Are they in that phase wherethey're just in pain and they
need something to fix the painbefore they can even get the
motivation to do other things?
There are tools that can helpthat person, but I do try to
(13:37):
explain everything because Iwant to plant the seeds, like
you had the experience withmindfulness.
At the time you were likeabsolutely not, that'll never
happen, not interested.
But that seed was planted andlater you revisited it, and so
for me I say like, look, thismay not be a tool for you today,
but you need to know about itand you need to know why it's
(13:59):
important, because I promise youyou're going to come back to
this one day, and so I try to gothrough the whole gambit of
tools for people and there is, Ithink, a good order of
operations to these tools.
I think that if you can get youknow your physical health
addressed which often makes usfeel better pretty quickly then
(14:21):
everything you build on top ofthat is going to take root so
much stronger.
So, for example, psychedelicseverybody's talking about that
these days and I got intoworking in that space in 2018
with Heroic Hearts Project,doing research with them.
I was their director ofresearch and I see psychedelics
(14:43):
as a really valuable tool and avery powerful tool.
But so many times I've seenpeople who were in a really
valuable tool and a verypowerful tool, but so many times
I've seen people who are in areally bad place and hurting and
just in need of change go dothat before they do anything
else, and they do it and they dofeel better.
They do have some reallypowerful insights and then over
(15:04):
time, they end up right backwhere they were because they
didn't put anything else intopractice.
So did they have a goodexperience and a good outcome?
Yes, was it worth it?
Possibly, but did it ultimatelylead to the change they were
seeking?
Not always, and in many casesno, because they didn't do all
these other things, and sosometimes with people, and in
(15:26):
many cases no, because theydidn't do all these other things
, and so sometimes with people.
If you can get that really likesolid foundation built, then
when you go do these otherthings you're like primed to get
the most out of it.
It's just like accelerationfrom there, and so I like to try
to start with the little things.
I don't want to overwhelmpeople, but it's like little
(15:46):
incremental things that you cando.
Build that discipline muscle,especially in the soft community
.
Everybody's so used toregimental approaches to fitness
and their skills that arerequired for their job and
there's so much disciplinearound that, and I try to get
(16:07):
people to apply that samediscipline to a new task, which
is taking care of yourself,prioritizing your health, and
it's hard.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely it's harder.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It's hard for all of us.
I don't know why that's harderfor us to be disciplined about
than other things, but thatneeds that same discipline needs
to be applied, and then, youknow, start with these
incremental things, but forthose people who are really in a
dark place and really hurting,they do need a little bit of a
win before they're really ableto, you know, muster up the
(16:39):
energy and motivation to do someof the things that require a
lot more of them to keep it, tokeep it going.
One of the things I will say,though, is that sometimes, you
work with people and they wantto feel better, and they want
something to change, and they'reasking you for tools, and then
(17:01):
there's this one thing thatthey're still unwilling to let
go of, and you're like I couldgive you all the tools, but if
you keep doing that thing, it'snot gonna be very helpful, and a
perfect example of this isalcohol.
It could be anything else.
Yeah, it could be anything elsetoo.
I mean, there's other things,but alcohol is the one.
(17:23):
I have friends and clients whohave pretty severe brain
injuries, both like fromconcussions and sports, but also
from blast, and they're askingme about tools, and they want to
do psychedelics or they wantHBOT or they want, you know,
supplement ideas.
And I'm asking what they'realready doing and they're
(17:44):
telling me that their sleep ishorrible and all these things
are terrible.
And they're still drinkingpretty regularly, and sometimes
heavily, and caffeine andnicotine and all these things.
And so I'm like, well, I hearyou, could you potentially like
decrease that and maybe abstainfor a while?
(18:06):
Because I can tell you that ifyou do all these things, they
might work a little bit, butthey're not going to fix that
stuff that you're still doing.
And when people have a hardtime stopping, that's when the
bigger question comes out aboutlike, okay, do we need to talk
about?
You know what's underlying thisbehavior too, you know, can we
address some of that as well,but it's, it's complicated.
(18:28):
We humans man, we were the onlyspecies that needs a user
manual.
It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know it's funny you bring up a user manual
because there's there's onething that I think you know we
talk about mind, body and spirit.
In spirit, in regards to thethings that we have to address
to really help ourselves comeout of this, and the one domain
that arguably a lot of us forthe vast majority of my life I
(18:58):
wasn't plugged into that, butit's the spirit we want to talk
about and everybody has theirown flavor.
I'm just saying there issomething to be said about
plugging into that aspect andfinding your operator's manual
sort of speed on a daily basis.
Um, is that something that youdove into?
Because a lot of times we tendto visualize this as two
(19:19):
separate entities.
When it comes to healing.
You have the science and andthe medical field and then
spirits all the way over here,but I think that they go well
together.
I think that by addressing thespirit side and understanding
how that helps shape the mentalhealth aspect, I think that it's
a powerful force for good.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean to me I see spiritualhealth as the backdrop for
everything else.
So you can talk about mentalhealth, you can talk about
physical health and to someextent, emotional health, but I
think that's more tightlyintertwined with the spiritual.
But the spiritual is kind ofthe backdrop or maybe even the
(20:01):
foundation.
Just because people don't thinkabout this very much, I guess
some people do.
And just because people don'tthink about this very much, I
guess some people do, but a lotof times people don't.
Your spiritual beliefs, how youconnect with the unseen and
wrestle with these existentialquestions that is a perspective
that you look through whenyou're living your life.
(20:23):
It colors every aspect of yourlife.
If you believe that there's ahigher power, if you believe
that you're connected to it insome way, you're going to
respond to adversity orpotentially even
life-threatening situations in avery different way than a
person who believes that this isall there is and there's
(20:46):
nothing after and there is noguiding hand in anything that.
You know how we move throughthe world is colored by that.
I was talking to a friendrecently about this, about you
know.
He suffers greatly from prettysevere anxiety and he doesn't
believe in a higher power andyou know, for him it's kind of
the physical world is what thereis and science is kind of like
(21:11):
the religion.
You know, it's like that's whatI believe in.
And we were talking aboutspirituality, because I went
back to school not that long agoto dive into philosophy and
theology, because I wanted moretools for my toolbox.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I was in a master's program not that long ago for
this.
I didn't finish it because workgot in the way and everything,
life and whatever.
But I mean I was verypurposeful about wanting to
pursue this because I recognizedI don't have as many tools in
that toolbox to help people as Iwould like.
And so I dove in, absolutely, Idove into this for my own
(21:47):
personal growth, but tounderstand these tools to help
people as I would like.
And so I dove into this for myown personal growth, but to
understand these tools to helpothers.
And so he and I were talkingand I was telling him about a
friend of mine who workedthrough his anxiety through
prayer and kind of leading,leaving it up to God and
trusting that process.
And I was explaining it to myfriend not to try to influence
him in any way, I was justoffering a story and he asked me
(22:11):
he's like do you think myanxiety is so bad?
Because I don't have anythinglike that.
And I was like I mean, you knowyou asked the question.
I don't know, that's a questionyou have to wrestle with.
You know, yeah, and possiblyyou know, possibly that that
(22:32):
might be something that couldcontribute to worsening anxiety
in somebody, if that is a youknow, almost like this
existential threat looms overtheir head all the time.
I have other friends who don'tbelieve in a higher power at all
, who are unbothered by that,but again, some people might be
bothered by it.
So, yeah, I mean, it's huge andI believe that we're spiritual
(22:56):
beings and so to not have somesort of framework for how to
make sense of that.
You're sort of just a leafblown in the wind and you have
no container for your experience, and especially for something
like psychedelics, wheresometimes you can have deeply
spiritual experiences.
If you don't already know whatyou believe or have a container
(23:17):
for it, that can be veryconfusing and unsettling and you
don't really know how tointegrate it.
So, to answer your question,that's a very long answer, but
the answer is yeah.
I think spiritual health andunderstanding what your
spiritual beliefs are or aren'tis critical.
I don't think enough people areasking that question of
themselves these days.
I think we discount it ingeneral as a society.
(23:39):
We just don't put much stock inthat anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Very true, Absolutely .
It's crazy that when I say thisall the time, when I look back
at the guys that didn't struggleor didn't stumble as hard as I
did, by and large individualsthat were able to navigate
injuries were able to navigatemental health issues faster and
(24:07):
with more grace.
That pillar of spirit waswell-defined, well-structured.
They knew where they were going.
Every Sunday it was the pillarat their home.
They had that concrete pillar.
If their body failed, if theirmind failed, they had that, it
was up and for a lot of us it'sa full body assault.
Mental assault is the spiritualassault.
(24:29):
There's nothing to fall back on.
So if you go into this fightwith that one pillar that is
strong, that will get youthrough everything when
everything else falls apart,you're going to pull through
this.
And one thing that I realizedwhen you go into your healing
intentionally and you're willingto explore and ask questions in
(24:51):
every aspect of your healing,it eventually brings you up to
this point where you're like youknow I was practicing
mindfulness and meditating andnot going to church, and finally
it became part of my family, itbecame part of rituals and it
brought me back to my faith andI realized, okay, I pulled that
string all the way through andit got me here.
(25:12):
And praying the rosary is nodifferent than doing a
meditation.
It's the same thing.
And that's when I realized,okay, I'm already doing this,
let's just get back into it.
I've had a lot of friends thathave that same discovery and
that's what's made me a littlebit more comfortable talking and
being more open about it,Because at first it's almost
(25:33):
easier to speak about everythingelse on earth versus talking
about your spiritual journey,where you're at and what your
faith is.
It's almost like we made itthis thing.
That's like, oh, it's so taboo.
But if you just speak about itfrom a place of where you're at
in your own journey, what you'redoing to make yourself better,
I think it can help other peopleand enlighten and it affords
(25:55):
somebody else the opportunity tofeel comfortable sharing their
own journey, which I find it'sincredibly helpful to help
somebody else feel comfortablewhat they're doing.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
It's one of the things that I realized that if
we're going to help and we'regoing to advocate, we're going
to be able to talk about allaspects of it.
Because we're losing so manypeople Just this month alone.
We lost another guy recently,and suicide is something that we
can't seem to find ourselveswinning, or at least turning the
(26:28):
tide.
In your perspective, from yourlived experience and everything
that you do, what are some ofthe things that we can start
doing to better engage and talkabout this, to be better sensors
amongst our own force, withinour own fairs uh, friends,
groups, to have that dialogue.
I mean, we don't know what ourguys are dealing with because we
(26:50):
don't talk about it, but if wedon't talk about it, we're going
to lose more people.
So how can we open up thatdiscussion and be better
discussing, at you know, theemotional issues, the things
that will get us deeper downthat road, to where that becomes
the ultimate, only thing we'rewilling to do?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, it's.
I mean that is it's such achallenging question to answer
because you know it.
Really it asks a lot of peopleand in that you know from my
experience, if everybody'swalking around hiding the real
struggles that they have, peopledon't feel comfortable asking
(27:31):
for help because they do feellike the only one.
Especially in the communitywhere everybody's been selected
and there's this elite statusand you're expected to be, you
know, this upper echelon ofhuman being, those cracks almost
feel like am I a fraud?
You know, like what is going on, and so people are really
hesitant.
But then when they do feel likethey're the only one and that
(27:54):
they are broken and flawed andthat there's something uniquely
wrong with them, that isabsolutely a huge risk factor
for somebody who you know isstruggling greatly and deciding
whether they want to stay and behere anymore.
And so the best thing thatpeople can do you know I always
(28:15):
try to recommend that if youhave those close buddies, you
know the people that you trust,where, if you open up, you know
that that vulnerability thatyou're willing to embrace isn't
going to be weaponized againstyou Like this is key, right.
You don't want to just go spillyour guts to anybody who's
willing to listen.
(28:35):
You really want to make surethat you're sharing with people
who you're concerned about orthat you really confide in, and
that vulnerable space is aninvitation.
It's being real with thesepeople and I can't tell you how
many times in my own life whereI've shared my struggles, I've
dealt with a lot and gonethrough a lot and lots of dark
(28:58):
periods, and the more peoplethat I've shared that with it
was like, oh, thank God.
Okay, so I got to tell youabout my story now.
And it's just like there's thisbonding and this connection and,
no, it doesn't solve yourproblems, doesn't make it all go
away.
But you realize, oh shit, okay,this isn't something that is
(29:21):
uniquely wrong with me I'm notthe flawed one here something
that is uniquely wrong with me,I'm not the flawed one here.
This is just something that isa sort of a well of course,
given what you've been through.
Right, so I would say that oneof the protective things that
people can do is being honestabout their own story with
people in the community thatthey trust, because it starts to
(29:43):
break down this false narrativethat everybody else has their
shit together but me.
And if everybody starts sharingand people realize, oh, we're
all struggling.
You know, my marriage is on therocks and this is going on, or
I did this thing that I'm reallyashamed of, but I, you know, in
the time I was just trying notto feel any pain and you know,
if you start going through thosetypes of discussions, it just
(30:05):
allows, like the just likebreathing room for everybody.
And so when people ask if youknow they want to help, I often
say start with yourself andstart getting real with yourself
and honest with yourself,because that's the best place to
start.
I know so many people who andI've been this person, so I have
great compassion for how we areas humans.
(30:27):
It's like I don't want to dealwith my shit.
I have a lot of shit, but whatI'm going to do is go help
others, you know, and that'swhat's going to fix everything,
and meanwhile the people you'rehelping think you've got your
shit together and you don't.
You know, and you're just like,if you just focus on being real
with yourself and then openingthat up and letting other people
(30:49):
in to see that I think thatthere can be a lot that is
beneficial.
Does that solve the suicideepidemic?
No, but does it?
Is it going to help people?
I would absolutely say yes,that that's going to help people
, and maybe there will be somewho choose not to go that route
because they're starting to seeoh wait, a minute.
Like you know, what I'm dealingwith is real.
(31:09):
I have so many friends whoconfide in me because, again,
I'm not part of any unit, I'mnot part of an official, you
know, anything like I, nothing'sgoing to get back to anybody
that they work with and so theycan confide in me and they're
telling me things that they'regoing through.
And I'm asking do your buddiesknow?
Does your psych know?
(31:30):
Do you know?
Who have you told in your worldabout these things?
Nobody, and I'm like this isnot like this.
This is not OK, because thepeople in your life think that
you are absolutely fine.
And I see underneath that and Iknow the exact opposite is true.
(31:51):
So you need to start talking toyour buddies.
Whether you know, maybe teammedic you know, go talk to your,
whoever it might be.
There needs to be some sort ofconnection there.
Maybe it's somebody off theteam, right Like you don't
necessarily want to burden theteam with that, and so you talk
to somebody else, but there is,there is a personal
responsibility there.
(32:11):
And at the same time, I getthat it's tricky because I do
have friends who've been burnedby this too.
You know and and the you knowthey've off, they've opened up
to the wrong person and didn'tknow, and and unfortunately,
that was used against them insome way.
And so I'm not trying to saythat this like knowing how to
navigate, that's easy, um, butit is something that I would
(32:34):
encourage people to try to dowith people they trust.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, vulnerability is a strength and he said it
helps other people feel likethey're seen and they can
actually share, and it works inevery demographic.
It just takes a lot of courage,it takes a lot of guts to sit
down and be the first one to saysomething, but that opens up
the discussion, it opens up theother individual to say hey, man
(33:03):
, yeah, me too, and that'ssomething that and we see it in
the advocacy space a lot Um,you're dealing with something,
you're hurt, you're struggling,you're in a lot of pain, and
then immediately you think, well, I'll just help, I'll just pour
myself into this great causeand be a helper.
That's awesome.
(33:23):
But when are you going to takecare of yourself?
When are you going to getbetter?
When are you going to go to thetreatment center?
And it becomes almost like adistraction.
I see it all the time.
People get burnt out and then itgets worse and worse and worse
and it's like, hey, if you canjust pour into yourself for a
little bit, pour into your owncup, go that treatment center,
(33:44):
go get checked out, get on theother side of healing, get on
your your journey to gettingback to a hundred percent,
you'll be a much better advocate.
You'll be a greater force forgood Cause.
Now you understand and you seethe entire problem, um, so if
you're out there and you seeyourself doing that, you're
being everybody else's caretakertake a knee.
You deserve to get better too.
(34:05):
It's not just about helpingeverybody else.
You got to help yourself, and Ithink that's a powerful thing
that we can all do Absolutely,because it makes you a better
sensor.
You're more aware.
You can finally be attuned tolike oh shit, that guy, I can go
talk to him, share my journey,just share what you.
(34:30):
What's helped you.
Um, it helps so many people inyour space right now.
What are you working on?
That, uh, is exciting and newman.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
You know, I work with a lot of different nonprofits
and it's my favorite thing to beable to go out on retreats with
folks and educate.
I absolutely love that aspectof what I do.
So I basically show up and Iget to participate in these
really cool week-long retreatswith wonderful humans who are
(34:56):
all there to try to help eachother and to grow and you know,
and I just get to educate on allthe things that we're talking
about.
I dive into neuroscience andphysiology and trauma and what
does that mean and how do wemake sense of this.
So I'm extremely passionateabout that and I'm doing.
I'm actually still leaving mymilitary medical company at the
end of the year so I can focusmore on the community directly.
(35:20):
So I can do more of that.
But one thing I'm going to beworking on is that I'm really
excited about is trying to putout more content in the form of
like courses, essentially likeeducational courses.
Like for the individualoperator, their families, or for
those who want to work in thespace and help and be individual
(35:41):
operator, their families, orfor those who want to work in
the space and help and be, youknow, a healthcare provider,
practitioner, healer, and sothere will be different options
to try to basically like how dowe scale, how do we force,
multiply this information?
Because there are still peoplewho don't know.
I mean, I work a lot in thefirst responder community and
firefighters and law enforcementare, like, I feel, like in the
dark ages with this stuff.
Nobody in their communities,they're not talking about it,
(36:04):
and so the veteran community isstill suffering greatly, but the
first responder community issuffering even more and there's
just no support for them and noeducation.
Take this knowledge that somany incredible researchers and
clinicians and service membersand all of the people who have
(36:25):
been trying to look at this fromdifferent angles how do we take
all of that and just put it outthere for people to easily
access and then go on and helpothers?
You know, it's just this dominoeffect.
So I'm trying to solve thatproblem in the way that I know
how, and some people write books, some people start podcasts,
some people are prolific inother types of creative
(36:46):
endeavors and I'm an educator atheart.
So for me, that's like where Ifeel like I'm supposed to go and
take my gifts, and so I'm goingto put together some courses
that hopefully will help people.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
That's awesome, heck, yeah, I cannot wait for that to
come out.
Have you done work with theBest Defense Foundation?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, I love those guys.
They're awesome.
I actually am heading out onthere's two upcoming programs
this summer that I'll be working.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Oh, heck yeah.
And of course you've workedwith Nick Jones over at Talents
Reach Foundation.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yep, yep, I love that organization so much it's
incredible and I used to live inMontana, so that's where we
connected two QR codes.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Head on over to those websites.
Leave us a donation or two.
Help them out, because they'redoing great things for our soft
veterans.
Very partial to both of thoseas individuals that run those
organizations are incrediblehuman beings.
And shout out to you Flo, doinggreat work.
Man, so proud of you, I cannotthank you enough for being here
today.
It is remarkable what you'redoing for the community.
Shameless plug.
(38:02):
Where can people go to findyour work?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Good question.
Right now I don't have much ofa social presence.
I'm on Instagram, that's aboutit.
I have LinkedIn for those whowant to connect in a
professional way, and then Iwill have a website up soon.
It'll just be docpatecom.
That'll be up soon and therewill be docpatecom.
That'll be up soon and therewill be more information and
eventually the courses will liveon that site and then a lot of
(38:27):
the writing and otherinformational stuff that I find
I'll push out through there tooAwesome.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Well, I cannot wait to have you back.
And we barely touched oneverything.
Moral injury we got to diveinto that one because that's one
that people go back and forth.
I love talking about thatbecause, let me tell you, a lot
of GWAT veterans are dealingwith moral injury and it's not
talked about enough.
I'm open to hearing both sides.
I've had individuals that sayit's absolutely fucking stupid,
(38:53):
it doesn't belong.
But when you meet individualsand they divulge their stories
of what they're going through,I'm like it has a leg to stand
on.
I believe it, I see it.
I talked to individuals thatare struggling with it and I'd
love to get your take on it on afuture episode.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
We're wrapping up.
Yeah, yeah, if you would pauseright now, go to the episode
description.
All the links are there forLinkedIn, instagram, where you
can get Dr Pay and send her afriend request, follow her and,
you know, connect with herprofessionally on LinkedIn,
because that's where you knowbusiness gets done.
That's certainly where I find alot of individuals.
Again, thank you so much forbeing here and to everybody
(39:32):
tuning in, thank you so much.
We'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Thank you.
look at us technology , technology blessing and a
curse oh man, yeah, I deal withthis at least once once a week,
um, but hey, thank you,riverside I think, thank you, I
think I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think maybe I don't know, but yeah, think, maybe I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
But yeah, once you get started working with the
individuals and and you gainrapport, they trust you.
It's easy to see the sameissues pop up from person to
person.
I mean, when I was stillstruggling with everything, I
had the same view.
I had the same view that only Ihad this.
That I was weird.
How dare I have any sort ofissues?
I must be messed up.
Everything.
I had the same view.
I had the same view that only Ihad this.
(00:45):
That was weird.
How dare I uh have any sort ofissues?
I must be messed up.
Everybody else is fine.
What the hell is wrong?
And I would?
I have to imagine that when youare armed with knowledge, where
you have information, you startthinking, okay, let's get
butcher block out, let's startwriting some stuff out, because
something doesn't make sense.
All these individuals have thesame thing.
(01:07):
Where did you start?
How did you go make that switchfrom worrying?
You know you're working withindividuals trying to make
changes in T, triple C inadvance.
You know great new things.
How did you clear the slate andsay you know what I got?
There's?
This seems pretty important.
This seems like nobody'stalking about it because 2015,
(01:27):
2016,.
Nobody was talking about it.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
No, yeah, I mean it was kind of a gradual thing.
Over the years I just startedto become more and more
concerned.
And you know, I grew up withthree older brothers and so a
lot of the community members Iinteracted with were men.
Of course there's women,brothers, and so a lot of the
community members I interactedwith were men.
Of course there's women too,but in a lot of the spaces that
I was working I didn't reallysee very many women, but a lot
(01:53):
of the dudes that I was around,honestly it kind of felt like
brothers to me in a lot of ways,like people just kind of
brought me into the mix and likekind of treated me like a
little sister in a certain senseand it created a sense of like
connection with the community.
That was, I think, reallyunique for me.
But also I'm, you know, I'mtough in a lot of ways but I
(02:18):
have a pretty big bleeding heart, that you know.
When I see people that I careabout suffering, it really
bothers me and it compels me towant to do something if I can.
Sometimes it's just literallybeing with a person and sitting
there and there's nothing youcan do to fix it, but if there's
something you can do to help orto fix anything that's going on
(02:41):
, why would you not?
And so for me, as I started tokind of, you know, get drawn
into the community, that Istarted to feel really just
passionate about helping.
My brother was a part of thiscommunity at the time.
It was just like and again, youknow, he and I never really
talked about this kind of thingbecause it, you know, although
I'm his sister, we didn't.
(03:02):
You know, he wasn't sharinganything going on with him like
that, just like very few peoplein the community were.
But I think that as I startedto see that I just was like you
know what, there's enough, Iwant to be able to offer
something.
So as the years kind ofprogressed, I started to dive
(03:32):
more and more into the researchon.
I had already my background.
I had done a postdoc in mygraduate degree was in
respiratory neurophysiology andthen as a postdoc I studied
traumatic brain injury andspinal cord injury.
So I had a lot of like thephysical health knowledge and
relevant information for TBI.
(03:52):
But what I was missing was themental health piece.
I didn't understand PTSD.
I didn't really know what thatwas.
I didn't really understand whatdepression was.
I didn't understand all theseother things that people were
experiencing.
What depression was?
I didn't understand all theseother things that people were
experiencing.
But I started, as Iinvestigated that I started to
see the link between braininjury, chronic stress, toxic
(04:13):
exposures and a lot of the youknow, the subjective experiences
that people were feeling.
And so I tried to explain thoselinks for my friends.
I tried to share more and moreabout what I understood or what
the pieces of the puzzle I sawfitting together.
And then I looked intotreatments.
Well, what can we do aboutthese things?
And is our understanding ofsomething like PTSD even really
(04:35):
helpful for the community?
And then Chris Free andcolleagues eventually came out
with Operator Syndrome the paper, the research paper.
I think it was 2020.
We were in the pandemic.
It might have been 2021, aroundthere.
You know, we were kind ofcoming out of the pandemic and
it was pretty impactful, but alot of people hadn't read it.
(04:58):
It was in the you know,peer-reviewed literature, so you
know your average lay personisn't going to go find that and
read it.
And so I found this paper.
I didn't know Chris at the time.
I found this paper and then Isaw some other write-ups around
the same kind of thing.
(05:19):
People may have remembered theModern Warfare Destroys Brains
document that came out as welland that was kind of referencing
operator syndrome.
They kind of referenced thatcluster of symptoms that you
know people were experiencingand this had a term all of a
sudden.
And so I remember creating onInstagram.
(05:41):
I put, basically it was likeoperator syndrome.
And then I put together thelist of what Chris and his
colleagues found to becommonalities as part of
operator syndrome and I justmade a quick little image, put
it on Instagram and it blew up.
I shared it on LinkedIn and itblew up and it was like wait,
(06:02):
there's a term, oh my gosh.
And people were now all of asudden checking boxes that they
realized, oh my gosh, this is anactual um like thing that
somebody studied.
So I'm not the only one Cause,like you know, in my
conversations with the community, I would tell people you're
saying the same things thateverybody else is saying.
(06:24):
You're not alone.
I want you to know that this isreal and many people are also
going through the same thing andpeople hear it, but it doesn't
really land.
Sometimes they're like yeah,yeah, you're just like blowing
smoke trying to make me feelbetter.
Some of them took it to heart,but some of them really just
didn't grasp that that was thetruth until this paper came out
(06:47):
and until people started talkingabout it.
And then it was like there'spermission now to say something
about this.
And that was changing for somany people and I have a
love-hate relationship withterminology because, like this,
this is a perfect example of itgave people permission.
(07:09):
They now had something to graspand wrap their arms around.
It made it real and that was so, so important for the community
in so many ways.
But the flip side of that is nowit's something people are
holding on to of.
I'm expecting, to quote unquotehave operator syndrome or
(07:33):
everything that they experienceis now under the umbrella of
that, and it's all related tooperator.
It's like same thing, you seeit, with post-traumatic stress
disorder.
When somebody gets thatdiagnosis, it becomes almost
like an identifier for them anda part of who they are, rather
than a thing that they'reexperiencing.
(07:55):
And sometimes we can get hungup on the labels and I don't
know in the long term if that'shelpful for the individual.
I think as scientists andclinicians, we have to have
something that's defined inorder to study it right.
Like we can't, we have to agreeupon something to study it
(08:29):
After the initial relief.
If they don't then move throughit and beyond it, it can be
something that they kind of holdon to and it becomes maybe more
integrated with who they thinkthey are instead of something
that they're experiencing.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Absolutely.
It's not a badge of courage.
It's not something to put onlike a warm, comforting jacket.
Badge of courage.
It's not something to put onlike a warm, comforting jacket.
It's just like the moniker ofPTSD and disgruntled veteran.
These aren't things that youidentify with as your new
identity.
You're giving the enemy a name.
Now you know what you'refighting.
Go after it.
Highlight the paper, understandevery detail about the enemy
(09:04):
and understand where you can goto get help.
These diagnoses are incrediblyhelpful because they help you
understand that you're not crazy.
What you're going through nowhas definitions and terms.
Well, look how they can improve.
Look at all the things you cando to improve.
And the thing that I love nowis is before and to some extent
(09:25):
still, the main thing thatyou're going to be funneled
towards or pushed towards ispharmaceutical intervention.
And look, I understand whateveryou need to get started on the
road to journey.
I had to start with SSRIs.
I don't advocate for them.
I don't advocate for long-termpharmaceutical intervention, but
I'm not going to sit there andsay, like the guy that's dealing
(09:47):
with something right now, ifyou need it and that's where
your journey begins.
That's where your journeybegins, but it doesn't have to
be the end all of your journey.
Now more than ever, we haveadvocates talking about the
importance of everything to getthe mind, body and spirit back
on track, and it really has tobe multiple modalities, not just
one thing.
Don't just cling desperately toone thing.
Be brave, be bold, be willingto look at every aspect.
(10:11):
I was the asshole that saidmindfulness wasn't gonna help me
.
I was a complete friggingasshole to that doctor at the
Intrepid Spirit.
And what did I get?
My certification in Mindfulness?
What do I teach and coach withMindfulness?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's a beautiful story.
When you get down to it, it's abeautiful story.
I was dealing with incrediblepain, suffering and misery and I
wanted all I wanted wassurgical intervention and the
doctor told me maybe, maybe thepain will not go away.
Are you willing to look at thatand just understand it?
I'm like, no, fuck you.
Make the pain go away, carve meup, cut out my you know, make
(10:49):
like as if they could just cutthe pain out, and I told her
that she was a complete idiot.
That was stupid.
I don't believe in mindfulness.
And here I am, years later,understanding that, yeah, it
works and and that's how our wehave to change as individuals.
Not just the scientists and thedoctors are helping us, but
individual, the patient.
If you're suffering right nowand you're being an asshole,
(11:12):
take a look in the mirror.
Man.
Like.
Sometimes we get in the way ofour own healing, like on this
journey, when you start lookingat the enemy, whether it's TBI,
moral injury, what were some ofthe things that you started
leaning towards trying toexplore more of?
To give guys some of thatpersonal autonomy for their own
healing journey, because a lotof times, like you know, people
(11:34):
still don't look at journalingand gratitude.
These things are important forlife, but turns out they are,
and there's so many differentthings out there that we can do
to take ownership of the problem.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, and it's.
It's.
You know it's funny, it's notunique to this community that
desire to want to have like abig change.
Now it's, you know, I mean it'shuman nature.
We like the small, daily,incremental practices seem like.
You know, I don't need toinvest in that.
I want something that's goingto make me feel very different
(12:07):
in a very short period of timeand so a lot.
You know I don't need to investin that.
I want something that's goingto make me feel very different
in a very short period of timeand so a lot.
You know, as human beings, wediscount.
Okay, did you prioritize sleepand get good sleep and work on
sleep hygiene?
Do you eat well?
Do you move?
Do you get outside in sunlight?
Do you journal, do you talkabout?
You know, like all thesedifferent things and people like
no, no, no, yep, next, likenext tool, please, and um, and
(12:28):
so I I try to take an approach,cause I have worked with people
across the spectrum of wherethey're at in their career, what
they're willing to do, levelsof desperation versus like real
hope and um, energy andmotivation to put small
practices into place.
I mean, you know how it is whenyou're in that place and someone
(12:50):
, you just everything hurts.
You're angry.
You know you don't feel likeyourself when someone tells you
to journal and be mindful.
You're like.
You know it's, it's I get itlike it's hard.
You know it's like whensomeone's in a depression and
somebody comes along like justbe happy.
You know it's like whensomeone's into a depression and
somebody comes along and like,just be happy.
You know, and it's just.
That's not how we work.
(13:11):
So I try to take the approachof like.
When I work with people, I tryto assess where they're at and
what kind of phase they're in.
Are they in that phase wherethey're just in pain and they
need something to fix the painbefore they can even get the
motivation to do other things?
There are tools that can helpthat person, but I do try to
(13:37):
explain everything because Iwant to plant the seeds, like
you had the experience withmindfulness.
At the time you were likeabsolutely not, that'll never
happen, not interested.
But that seed was planted andlater you revisited it, and so
for me I say like, look, thismay not be a tool for you today,
but you need to know about itand you need to know why it's
(13:59):
important, because I promise youyou're going to come back to
this one day, and so I try to gothrough the whole gambit of
tools for people and there is, Ithink, a good order of
operations to these tools.
I think that if you can get youknow your physical health
addressed which often makes usfeel better pretty quickly then
(14:21):
everything you build on top ofthat is going to take root so
much stronger.
So, for example, psychedelicseverybody's talking about that
these days and I got intoworking in that space in 2018
with Heroic Hearts Project,doing research with them.
I was their director ofresearch and I see psychedelics
(14:43):
as a really valuable tool and avery powerful tool.
But so many times I've seenpeople who were in a really
valuable tool and a verypowerful tool, but so many times
I've seen people who are in areally bad place and hurting and
just in need of change go dothat before they do anything
else, and they do it and they dofeel better.
They do have some reallypowerful insights and then over
(15:04):
time, they end up right backwhere they were because they
didn't put anything else intopractice.
So did they have a goodexperience and a good outcome?
Yes, was it worth it?
Possibly, but did it ultimatelylead to the change they were
seeking?
Not always, and in many casesno, because they didn't do all
these other things, and sosometimes with people, and in
(15:26):
many cases no, because theydidn't do all these other things
, and so sometimes with people.
If you can get that really likesolid foundation built, then
when you go do these otherthings you're like primed to get
the most out of it.
It's just like accelerationfrom there, and so I like to try
to start with the little things.
I don't want to overwhelmpeople, but it's like little
(15:46):
incremental things that you cando.
Build that discipline muscle,especially in the soft community
.
Everybody's so used toregimental approaches to fitness
and their skills that arerequired for their job and
there's so much disciplinearound that, and I try to get
(16:07):
people to apply that samediscipline to a new task, which
is taking care of yourself,prioritizing your health, and
it's hard.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely it's harder.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It's hard for all of us.
I don't know why that's harderfor us to be disciplined about
than other things, but thatneeds that same discipline needs
to be applied, and then, youknow, start with these
incremental things, but forthose people who are really in a
dark place and really hurting,they do need a little bit of a
win before they're really ableto, you know, muster up the
(16:39):
energy and motivation to do someof the things that require a
lot more of them to keep it, tokeep it going.
One of the things I will say,though, is that sometimes, you
work with people and they wantto feel better, and they want
something to change, and they'reasking you for tools, and then
(17:01):
there's this one thing thatthey're still unwilling to let
go of, and you're like I couldgive you all the tools, but if
you keep doing that thing, it'snot gonna be very helpful, and a
perfect example of this isalcohol.
It could be anything else.
Yeah, it could be anything elsetoo.
I mean, there's other things,but alcohol is the one.
(17:23):
I have friends and clients whohave pretty severe brain
injuries, both like fromconcussions and sports, but also
from blast, and they're askingme about tools, and they want to
do psychedelics or they wantHBOT or they want, you know,
supplement ideas.
And I'm asking what they'realready doing and they're
(17:44):
telling me that their sleep ishorrible and all these things
are terrible.
And they're still drinkingpretty regularly, and sometimes
heavily, and caffeine andnicotine and all these things.
And so I'm like, well, I hearyou, could you potentially like
decrease that and maybe abstainfor a while?
(18:06):
Because I can tell you that ifyou do all these things, they
might work a little bit, butthey're not going to fix that
stuff that you're still doing.
And when people have a hardtime stopping, that's when the
bigger question comes out aboutlike, okay, do we need to talk
about?
You know what's underlying thisbehavior too, you know, can we
address some of that as well,but it's, it's complicated.
(18:28):
We humans man, we were the onlyspecies that needs a user
manual.
It's not easy.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know it's funny you bring up a user manual
because there's there's onething that I think you know we
talk about mind, body and spirit.
In spirit, in regards to thethings that we have to address
to really help ourselves comeout of this, and the one domain
that arguably a lot of us forthe vast majority of my life I
(18:58):
wasn't plugged into that, butit's the spirit we want to talk
about and everybody has theirown flavor.
I'm just saying there issomething to be said about
plugging into that aspect andfinding your operator's manual
sort of speed on a daily basis.
Um, is that something that youdove into?
Because a lot of times we tendto visualize this as two
(19:19):
separate entities.
When it comes to healing.
You have the science and andthe medical field and then
spirits all the way over here,but I think that they go well
together.
I think that by addressing thespirit side and understanding
how that helps shape the mentalhealth aspect, I think that it's
a powerful force for good.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean to me I see spiritualhealth as the backdrop for
everything else.
So you can talk about mentalhealth, you can talk about
physical health and to someextent, emotional health, but I
think that's more tightlyintertwined with the spiritual.
But the spiritual is kind ofthe backdrop or maybe even the
(20:01):
foundation.
Just because people don't thinkabout this very much, I guess
some people do.
And just because people don'tthink about this very much, I
guess some people do, but a lotof times people don't.
Your spiritual beliefs, how youconnect with the unseen and
wrestle with these existentialquestions that is a perspective
that you look through whenyou're living your life.
(20:23):
It colors every aspect of yourlife.
If you believe that there's ahigher power, if you believe
that you're connected to it insome way, you're going to
respond to adversity orpotentially even
life-threatening situations in avery different way than a
person who believes that this isall there is and there's
(20:46):
nothing after and there is noguiding hand in anything that.
You know how we move throughthe world is colored by that.
I was talking to a friendrecently about this, about you
know.
He suffers greatly from prettysevere anxiety and he doesn't
believe in a higher power andyou know, for him it's kind of
the physical world is what thereis and science is kind of like
(21:11):
the religion.
You know, it's like that's whatI believe in.
And we were talking aboutspirituality, because I went
back to school not that long agoto dive into philosophy and
theology, because I wanted moretools for my toolbox.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I was in a master's program not that long ago for
this.
I didn't finish it because workgot in the way and everything,
life and whatever.
But I mean I was verypurposeful about wanting to
pursue this because I recognizedI don't have as many tools in
that toolbox to help people as Iwould like.
And so I dove in, absolutely, Idove into this for my own
(21:47):
personal growth, but tounderstand these tools to help
people as I would like.
And so I dove into this for myown personal growth, but to
understand these tools to helpothers.
And so he and I were talkingand I was telling him about a
friend of mine who workedthrough his anxiety through
prayer and kind of leading,leaving it up to God and
trusting that process.
And I was explaining it to myfriend not to try to influence
him in any way, I was justoffering a story and he asked me
(22:11):
he's like do you think myanxiety is so bad?
Because I don't have anythinglike that.
And I was like I mean, you knowyou asked the question.
I don't know, that's a questionyou have to wrestle with.
You know, yeah, and possiblyyou know, possibly that that
(22:32):
might be something that couldcontribute to worsening anxiety
in somebody, if that is a youknow, almost like this
existential threat looms overtheir head all the time.
I have other friends who don'tbelieve in a higher power at all
, who are unbothered by that,but again, some people might be
bothered by it.
So, yeah, I mean, it's huge andI believe that we're spiritual
(22:56):
beings and so to not have somesort of framework for how to
make sense of that.
You're sort of just a leafblown in the wind and you have
no container for your experience, and especially for something
like psychedelics, wheresometimes you can have deeply
spiritual experiences.
If you don't already know whatyou believe or have a container
(23:17):
for it, that can be veryconfusing and unsettling and you
don't really know how tointegrate it.
So, to answer your question,that's a very long answer, but
the answer is yeah.
I think spiritual health andunderstanding what your
spiritual beliefs are or aren'tis critical.
I don't think enough people areasking that question of
themselves these days.
I think we discount it ingeneral as a society.
(23:39):
We just don't put much stock inthat anymore.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Very true, Absolutely .
It's crazy that when I say thisall the time, when I look back
at the guys that didn't struggleor didn't stumble as hard as I
did, by and large individualsthat were able to navigate
injuries were able to navigatemental health issues faster and
(24:07):
with more grace.
That pillar of spirit waswell-defined, well-structured.
They knew where they were going.
Every Sunday it was the pillarat their home.
They had that concrete pillar.
If their body failed, if theirmind failed, they had that, it
was up and for a lot of us it'sa full body assault.
Mental assault is the spiritualassault.
(24:29):
There's nothing to fall back on.
So if you go into this fightwith that one pillar that is
strong, that will get youthrough everything when
everything else falls apart,you're going to pull through
this.
And one thing that I realizedwhen you go into your healing
intentionally and you're willingto explore and ask questions in
(24:51):
every aspect of your healing,it eventually brings you up to
this point where you're like youknow I was practicing
mindfulness and meditating andnot going to church, and finally
it became part of my family, itbecame part of rituals and it
brought me back to my faith andI realized, okay, I pulled that
string all the way through andit got me here.
(25:12):
And praying the rosary is nodifferent than doing a
meditation.
It's the same thing.
And that's when I realized,okay, I'm already doing this,
let's just get back into it.
I've had a lot of friends thathave that same discovery and
that's what's made me a littlebit more comfortable talking and
being more open about it,Because at first it's almost
(25:33):
easier to speak about everythingelse on earth versus talking
about your spiritual journey,where you're at and what your
faith is.
It's almost like we made itthis thing.
That's like, oh, it's so taboo.
But if you just speak about itfrom a place of where you're at
in your own journey, what you'redoing to make yourself better,
I think it can help other peopleand enlighten and it affords
(25:55):
somebody else the opportunity tofeel comfortable sharing their
own journey, which I find it'sincredibly helpful to help
somebody else feel comfortablewhat they're doing.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
It's one of the things that I realized that if
we're going to help and we'regoing to advocate, we're going
to be able to talk about allaspects of it.
Because we're losing so manypeople Just this month alone.
We lost another guy recently,and suicide is something that we
can't seem to find ourselveswinning, or at least turning the
(26:28):
tide.
In your perspective, from yourlived experience and everything
that you do, what are some ofthe things that we can start
doing to better engage and talkabout this, to be better sensors
amongst our own force, withinour own fairs uh, friends,
groups, to have that dialogue.
I mean, we don't know what ourguys are dealing with because we
(26:50):
don't talk about it, but if wedon't talk about it, we're going
to lose more people.
So how can we open up thatdiscussion and be better
discussing, at you know, theemotional issues, the things
that will get us deeper downthat road, to where that becomes
the ultimate, only thing we'rewilling to do?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, it's.
I mean that is it's such achallenging question to answer
because you know it.
Really it asks a lot of peopleand in that you know from my
experience, if everybody'swalking around hiding the real
struggles that they have, peopledon't feel comfortable asking
(27:31):
for help because they do feellike the only one.
Especially in the communitywhere everybody's been selected
and there's this elite statusand you're expected to be, you
know, this upper echelon ofhuman being, those cracks almost
feel like am I a fraud?
You know, like what is going on, and so people are really
hesitant.
But then when they do feel likethey're the only one and that
(27:54):
they are broken and flawed andthat there's something uniquely
wrong with them, that isabsolutely a huge risk factor
for somebody who you know isstruggling greatly and deciding
whether they want to stay and behere anymore.
And so the best thing thatpeople can do you know I always
(28:15):
try to recommend that if youhave those close buddies, you
know the people that you trust,where, if you open up, you know
that that vulnerability thatyou're willing to embrace isn't
going to be weaponized againstyou Like this is key, right.
You don't want to just go spillyour guts to anybody who's
willing to listen.
(28:35):
You really want to make surethat you're sharing with people
who you're concerned about orthat you really confide in, and
that vulnerable space is aninvitation.
It's being real with thesepeople and I can't tell you how
many times in my own life whereI've shared my struggles, I've
dealt with a lot and gonethrough a lot and lots of dark
(28:58):
periods, and the more peoplethat I've shared that with it
was like, oh, thank God.
Okay, so I got to tell youabout my story now.
And it's just like there's thisbonding and this connection and,
no, it doesn't solve yourproblems, doesn't make it all go
away.
But you realize, oh shit, okay,this isn't something that is
(29:21):
uniquely wrong with me I'm notthe flawed one here something
that is uniquely wrong with me,I'm not the flawed one here.
This is just something that isa sort of a well of course,
given what you've been through.
Right, so I would say that oneof the protective things that
people can do is being honestabout their own story with
people in the community thatthey trust, because it starts to
(29:43):
break down this false narrativethat everybody else has their
shit together but me.
And if everybody starts sharingand people realize, oh, we're
all struggling.
You know, my marriage is on therocks and this is going on, or
I did this thing that I'm reallyashamed of, but I, you know, in
the time I was just trying notto feel any pain and you know,
if you start going through thosetypes of discussions, it just
(30:05):
allows, like the just likebreathing room for everybody.
And so when people ask if youknow they want to help, I often
say start with yourself andstart getting real with yourself
and honest with yourself,because that's the best place to
start.
I know so many people who andI've been this person, so I have
great compassion for how we areas humans.
(30:27):
It's like I don't want to dealwith my shit.
I have a lot of shit, but whatI'm going to do is go help
others, you know, and that'swhat's going to fix everything,
and meanwhile the people you'rehelping think you've got your
shit together and you don't.
You know, and you're just like,if you just focus on being real
with yourself and then openingthat up and letting other people
(30:49):
in to see that I think thatthere can be a lot that is
beneficial.
Does that solve the suicideepidemic?
No, but does it?
Is it going to help people?
I would absolutely say yes,that that's going to help people
, and maybe there will be somewho choose not to go that route
because they're starting to seeoh wait, a minute.
Like you know, what I'm dealingwith is real.
(31:09):
I have so many friends whoconfide in me because, again,
I'm not part of any unit, I'mnot part of an official, you
know, anything like I, nothing'sgoing to get back to anybody
that they work with and so theycan confide in me and they're
telling me things that they'regoing through.
And I'm asking do your buddiesknow?
Does your psych know?
(31:30):
Do you know?
Who have you told in your worldabout these things?
Nobody, and I'm like this isnot like this.
This is not OK, because thepeople in your life think that
you are absolutely fine.
And I see underneath that and Iknow the exact opposite is true.
(31:51):
So you need to start talking toyour buddies.
Whether you know, maybe teammedic you know, go talk to your,
whoever it might be.
There needs to be some sort ofconnection there.
Maybe it's somebody off theteam, right Like you don't
necessarily want to burden theteam with that, and so you talk
to somebody else, but there is,there is a personal
responsibility there.
(32:11):
And at the same time, I getthat it's tricky because I do
have friends who've been burnedby this too.
You know and and the you knowthey've off, they've opened up
to the wrong person and didn'tknow, and and unfortunately,
that was used against them insome way.
And so I'm not trying to saythat this like knowing how to
navigate, that's easy, um, butit is something that I would
(32:34):
encourage people to try to dowith people they trust.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, vulnerability is a strength and he said it
helps other people feel likethey're seen and they can
actually share, and it works inevery demographic.
It just takes a lot of courage,it takes a lot of guts to sit
down and be the first one to saysomething, but that opens up
the discussion, it opens up theother individual to say hey, man
(33:03):
, yeah, me too, and that'ssomething that and we see it in
the advocacy space a lot Um,you're dealing with something,
you're hurt, you're struggling,you're in a lot of pain, and
then immediately you think, well, I'll just help, I'll just pour
myself into this great causeand be a helper.
That's awesome.
(33:23):
But when are you going to takecare of yourself?
When are you going to getbetter?
When are you going to go to thetreatment center?
And it becomes almost like adistraction.
I see it all the time.
People get burnt out and then itgets worse and worse and worse
and it's like, hey, if you canjust pour into yourself for a
little bit, pour into your owncup, go that treatment center,
(33:44):
go get checked out, get on theother side of healing, get on
your your journey to gettingback to a hundred percent,
you'll be a much better advocate.
You'll be a greater force forgood Cause.
Now you understand and you seethe entire problem, um, so if
you're out there and you seeyourself doing that, you're
being everybody else's caretakertake a knee.
You deserve to get better too.
(34:05):
It's not just about helpingeverybody else.
You got to help yourself, and Ithink that's a powerful thing
that we can all do Absolutely,because it makes you a better
sensor.
You're more aware.
You can finally be attuned tolike oh shit, that guy, I can go
talk to him, share my journey,just share what you.
(34:30):
What's helped you.
Um, it helps so many people inyour space right now.
What are you working on?
That, uh, is exciting and newman.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
You know, I work with a lot of different nonprofits
and it's my favorite thing to beable to go out on retreats with
folks and educate.
I absolutely love that aspectof what I do.
So I basically show up and Iget to participate in these
really cool week-long retreatswith wonderful humans who are
(34:56):
all there to try to help eachother and to grow and you know,
and I just get to educate on allthe things that we're talking
about.
I dive into neuroscience andphysiology and trauma and what
does that mean and how do wemake sense of this.
So I'm extremely passionateabout that and I'm doing.
I'm actually still leaving mymilitary medical company at the
end of the year so I can focusmore on the community directly.
(35:20):
So I can do more of that.
But one thing I'm going to beworking on is that I'm really
excited about is trying to putout more content in the form of
like courses, essentially likeeducational courses.
Like for the individualoperator, their families, or for
those who want to work in thespace and help and be individual
(35:41):
operator, their families, orfor those who want to work in
the space and help and be, youknow, a healthcare provider,
practitioner, healer, and sothere will be different options
to try to basically like how dowe scale, how do we force,
multiply this information?
Because there are still peoplewho don't know.
I mean, I work a lot in thefirst responder community and
firefighters and law enforcementare, like, I feel, like in the
dark ages with this stuff.
Nobody in their communities,they're not talking about it,
(36:04):
and so the veteran community isstill suffering greatly, but the
first responder community issuffering even more and there's
just no support for them and noeducation.
Take this knowledge that somany incredible researchers and
clinicians and service membersand all of the people who have
(36:25):
been trying to look at this fromdifferent angles how do we take
all of that and just put it outthere for people to easily
access and then go on and helpothers?
You know, it's just this dominoeffect.
So I'm trying to solve thatproblem in the way that I know
how, and some people write books, some people start podcasts,
some people are prolific inother types of creative
(36:46):
endeavors and I'm an educator atheart.
So for me, that's like where Ifeel like I'm supposed to go and
take my gifts, and so I'm goingto put together some courses
that hopefully will help people.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
That's awesome, heck, yeah, I cannot wait for that to
come out.
Have you done work with theBest Defense Foundation?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, I love those guys.
They're awesome.
I actually am heading out onthere's two upcoming programs
this summer that I'll be working.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Oh, heck yeah.
And of course you've workedwith Nick Jones over at Talents
Reach Foundation.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yep, yep, I love that organization so much it's
incredible and I used to live inMontana, so that's where we
connected two QR codes.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Head on over to those websites.
Leave us a donation or two.
Help them out, because they'redoing great things for our soft
veterans.
Very partial to both of thoseas individuals that run those
organizations are incrediblehuman beings.
And shout out to you Flo, doinggreat work.
Man, so proud of you, I cannotthank you enough for being here
today.
It is remarkable what you'redoing for the community.
Shameless plug.
(38:02):
Where can people go to findyour work?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Good question.
Right now I don't have much ofa social presence.
I'm on Instagram, that's aboutit.
I have LinkedIn for those whowant to connect in a
professional way, and then Iwill have a website up soon.
It'll just be docpatecom.
That'll be up soon and therewill be docpatecom.
That'll be up soon and therewill be more information and
eventually the courses will liveon that site and then a lot of
(38:27):
the writing and otherinformational stuff that I find
I'll push out through there tooAwesome.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Well, I cannot wait to have you back.
And we barely touched oneverything.
Moral injury we got to diveinto that one because that's one
that people go back and forth.
I love talking about thatbecause, let me tell you, a lot
of GWAT veterans are dealingwith moral injury and it's not
talked about enough.
I'm open to hearing both sides.
I've had individuals that sayit's absolutely fucking stupid,
(38:53):
it doesn't belong.
But when you meet individualsand they divulge their stories
of what they're going through,I'm like it has a leg to stand
on.
I believe it, I see it.
I talked to individuals thatare struggling with it and I'd
love to get your take on it on afuture episode.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
We're wrapping up.
Yeah, yeah, if you would pauseright now, go to the episode
description.
All the links are there forLinkedIn, instagram, where you
can get Dr Pay and send her afriend request, follow her and,
you know, connect with herprofessionally on LinkedIn,
because that's where you knowbusiness gets done.
That's certainly where I find alot of individuals.
Again, thank you so much forbeing here and to everybody
(39:32):
tuning in, thank you so much.
We'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Thank you.
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