September 22, 2025 • 45 mins
Art Poghosyan shares his journey from IT security consultant to CEO of Britive, a cloud-native identity and access management company. His experience during economic downturns shaped his understanding of how cybersecurity services remain resilient through various market cycles.
• Started in IT security right after completing a master's in technology risk management
• Worked with early IAM solutions including LDAP directories, SSO, and authentication systems
• Founded Advanced Technology Solutions focusing on IAM implementation services
• Identified growing challenges with traditional IAM solutions in cloud environments
• Created Britive to address cloud-native identity management challenges
• Witnessed explosion of machine identities in cloud environments creating security risks
• Now focused on securing new identity types including AI and agentic identities
• Cybersecurity consulting proves relatively recession-proof as security needs persist in both growth and contraction
• Capital One AWS breach highlighted risks of excessive privileges in cloud environments
• Current focus includes securing agent-to-agent interactions in AI systems
Connect with Art on LinkedIn or email him at art@britive.com to learn more about Britive's solutions for cloud and AI identity challenges.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How's it going?
Art, it's great to get you onthe podcast.
You know I'm not sure when thiswas scheduled, to be completely
honest with you.
But you know I'm glad that wedidn't have to go through like a
process of rescheduling andeverything else.
But I'm sure my fall is aboutto go into that mode because my
kids are back in daycare fulltime and they're just about to
(00:23):
start getting sick, I know it.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gosh, yeah, great to be here, joe, and I was looking
forward to the conversationtoday.
I'm glad the schedules andeverything worked out.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's challenging at times, forsure, you know, because like
you're trying to bring your ownschedule, which is already like
jam-packed, you know, withsomeone like yours, right, where
it's like okay, I think I havean hour this week.
You know what I mean.
It's like it can be prettycrazy.
And we're just on the other endof kind of like the busy season
(00:54):
for cybersecurity conferences,right, like it kind of kicks off
end of April during, you know,middle of May with like RSA and
then kind of wraps wraps up withBlack Hat and DEF CON and
whatnot.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
True, true, but we do have a couple important ones
towards the end of the year.
Gartner IAM is a big one thatwe usually tend, and it happens
to be in December, I think,right after AWS, reinvents, yeah
, so I'll be on the road.
I don't know about you, butI'll be on the road for a few of
the conferences until end ofthe year.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, I haven't been to AWS reInvent or reInforce for
that matter.
I really want to go, though.
I feel like I would reallyenjoy it.
You know AWS is the cloud thatI'm like the most I guess
officially like certified in and, you know, most experienced
with, so a lot of this stuffjust like kind of makes sense to
(01:43):
me, like by default, right,because you go through those
such an arduous process gettingthose professional level
certifications.
It's like grilled into you, youknow.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, I would recommend certainly reinvent and
reinforce as well.
If your focus is more onsecurity.
Both would be great events.
I would certainly recommend.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah yeah, maybe, maybe next year.
I mean, I the problem is I getseparation anxiety for my kids,
right, and so I'm sure they they, you know get a little bit
anxious when I'm away too.
But now it's like I'm in a partwhere it's like, okay, I want
to go to DEF CON, you know.
I want to go to AWS, reinforceand reinvent.
I got to like shuttle thesekids around too because I want
(02:23):
go to it, you know.
So it's just, it's moredifficult, it's more logistics
and everything which you know isnormal with kids.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I guess, right, like yeah, I've got everything more
complex.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I've got three, so I'm very familiar with the story
yeah, yeah, well, art, you know, why don't we dive into your
background?
Right?
How did you get into IT?
What made you want to go down?
Security, you know as like aspecialty.
And then you know, maybe forthat third phase of it, why in
the world do you want to, youknow, lead a company or be a CEO
(03:00):
of a company in this space?
I mean, it just seems like sucha competitive space.
You know, like me, trying toconvince myself to do it, it
would be difficult for me toconvince myself to do it because
it's so competitive.
It's like, well, you know, Idon't know, I'm going to put all
this time and money and effortinto it and it may not work out
right.
Like, what was that journeylike for you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I really appreciate the question because
when you look at startups andcompanies and so on, what you
see is from the PR lens, right,what you see from publicly
available information and so on,what you don't see a lot of is
the history, the genesis of thevision and all that.
And I appreciate the question.
And it does start with people.
(03:40):
It does start with the personsetting goals and seeing an
opportunity and so on.
So for me, how I started in IT,I would say it was pretty much
in IT security right off the bat, because I had just graduated
from the master's program with aspecialization in technology
risk management and startedworking for a big four firm
(04:06):
right at the gate and the ITsecurity was a very sort of a
niche segment of the technologyservices market and you had a
lot of the people who were inthat space were with former
military, dod, nsa background.
Not so many people camedirectly from the graduate
school or commercial sector.
(04:26):
So it was competitive back thenwhen these people were already
fairly seasoned, you knowsecurity analysts and systems
engineers and so on.
But I loved it right out thedoor.
I mean the big companiesusually they don't waste time.
They put you on a project evenin the first week and you're off
to some client and doing somework already right.
(04:48):
So you learn, kind of learn asyou go.
For me, security in the firstcouple of years was mostly about
vulnerability management,network penetration, testing and
so on.
Those are early 2000s, whereI'm talking about right 2002,
2003.
But there was an interestingpivot moment there and I got
pulled into a project that wasnot about breaking stuff like
(05:11):
network controls, it was moreabout actually deploying it.
At the time the LDAPdirectories were becoming
popular and you know they werebeing used as network
authentication systems and so on.
I got pulled into a project todesign an LDAP director and
deploy it on the customer'snetwork and when I did that I
learned.
It was a steep learning curvebut I learned the other side of
(05:34):
tech or security technologies,not the side and the tools that
you use to break it, but theones that you use to actually
build security, and thatactually excited me a lot more.
I kind of really decided tojust seek those opportunities,
and very quickly.
You probably remember somenames from those days, like
companies like Netegrity was thefirst in the single sign-on
(05:56):
authentication space.
Others at the time CA had someother interesting technologies
which Netegrity actually laterwas acquired by CA.
So I got more opportunities tokind of go deeper into what
would become later identityaccess management.
At the time it wasauthentication, sso, ldap
directories and I continued tofocus on that and as part of EY,
(06:19):
where I was part of theircybersecurity practice, I worked
on a lot of projects with majoryou, with major enterprise
organizations, fortune 100s, todeploy the identity and access
management products which werebecoming a little bit broader
than just authentication.
Soon we started seeing theaccess provisioning and
privileged access productsstarting to enter the market,
(06:41):
and that took me to about 2009.
To enter the market, and thattook me to about 2009.
And that's when I really sawkind of that, had this
entrepreneurial itch.
I didn't even know what it wasall at the time, but I felt like
there was a bigger opportunitythat I wanted to address and
just as an entrepreneur, ratherthan just being a part of a big
(07:02):
company and you know, servingclients, but being part of a
bigger brand name and a team, Ifelt like the opportunities to
really kind of address the needin the market differently, with
much more focused and expertkind of approach, which would
also mean alignment, very closealignment with the technology
and products that are in themarket, which, if you know the
(07:24):
big four model, the bigconsulting model they always
present an agnostic view.
They want to always be atrusted advisor and not present
any kind of a biased view of anyproduct, which is great, I mean
.
That's very much appreciated byclients.
But there's also a point fromthe customer standpoint where
they want a partner to help themdefine very technical and
(07:48):
specific requirements, find aproduct that will meet the
requirements and help themdeploy it and move to production
and maybe even operate in thesupport mode afterwards.
That was the opportunity I sawin the market afterwards.
That was the opportunity I sawin the market and at the time it
was also the if you rememberthe mortgage, you know the
(08:12):
mortgage meltdown and recessionthat followed that.
The mortgage industry meltdown,a lot of companies, the budget
shrunk, almost disappeared, butthe compliance needs did it and
that helped me get started withmy first business.
I started a company calledAdvanced Technology Solutions
focusing on, specifically,identity and access management
solutions, design andimplementation services, and
some of the great names you seein the market today were still
(08:34):
early stage startups, the likesof Ping, identity and Avexa,
which RSA acquired SailPoint bigplayer in the space, even like
PAM vendors that you know todayare the top, the big three, as
they call them CyberArk, delenia, fiat Trust.
We're new in the market andtheir market traction was just
starting to accelerate Workedwith those companies and became
(08:56):
a trusted partner to helpimplement these products for
their customers.
We had a great run for aboutsix years, I would say.
And Optif Security, a bigservices player in the
cybersecurity space, noticed usand felt that the
identity-related services are abig and growing business and
(09:16):
they came and offered to acquirethe business.
The timing of that exit wasvery interesting because at
Vance and my company beforeBrighton, timing that exit was
(09:36):
very interesting because atVance my company before Brighton
, we already had built someproducts of our own which we
weren't really selling asproducts but we're selling as
more integration solutionsbetween various vendor solutions
, vendor products, and we werealready starting to see a bigger
opportunity to move into aproduct business.
Moving to a product business,optive Acquisition kind of gave
us a sort of a great sort ofexit ramp into the next
objective, which becameBrightiff.
Brightiff is all about cloudnative identity and access
management.
(09:56):
Privileged access is kind ofour primary lens on access, but
it's also about a broaderidentity landscape.
Back then, when we wereimplementing SailPoint, ping
Identity and so on, theseproducts were primarily designed
and deployed for humanidentities.
We saw that change very quicklyand today, as you I'm sure know
(10:19):
, there's a lot more of othertype of identities, like machine
workload NHI generally is howthe industry is referred to them
and there's yet a special newtype of identities agentic
identities and AI identities,right.
So for us it's all about theworld that we were moving into
and kind of leaving the datacenter behind, and there are
(10:41):
products that have been therefor years and they do the job
for the data center.
But our main focus was thefuture technologies and the new
needs and new identity kind ofproblems that we we could solve,
that we wanted to solve.
So that got us really kind ofexcited and you know there's not
been a dull day since westarted Brightim.
I'm sure you're well aware ofthat in this space.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, no, it's definitely a fascinating journey
.
You know, I've done over and Ithink it's over 250 episodes at
this point, right, and I haven'theard the same background twice
, you know, but every time thatI've talked to people that went
to consulting, they all say theexact same thing that, like,
(11:25):
you're basically drinking fromthe fire hose, you know, like
they immediately throw you intothe fire and you either sink or
swim.
Basically, you know, I thinkback, like right now, I wouldn't
want to like go to the, theconsulting, like the big, the
big four route, necessarily,because it's just so much travel
, right, you're travelingconstantly.
(11:48):
That's not very conducive for,you know, someone that wants to
be like a like you know not,someone that wants to be you
know something, right, but forsomeone with a young family,
that's not very conducive, right?
So I couldn't imagine doing itright now and earlier on in my
career I feel like I wouldn't begood at it because I wouldn't.
I don't know if I'd be able tolike swim, you know, so to speak
(12:09):
, but it's.
It's interesting.
Everyone that I've talked toand I've talked to people that
actually got out of it, you know, within like six months of
starting at one of the big four.
This is like yeah, you know I'mon the road four out of five
days a week, every single week.
Yeah, I have a whole lot ofpoints and miles and everything
(12:30):
else, but like I'm paying for anapartment that I'm not even at,
you know, it's an interestingworld.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Expensive storage, as we used to call it Expensive
storage.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, and you get exposure, though, like, the
benefit is that you get exposureto so many different things.
I mean, you get exposure to aninfinite amount of environments
and configurations and reasonsand purposes behind why it was
built that way, which is reallyas a consultant.
You have to understand that.
You have to understand, heywell, why did you make this
(13:00):
decision right from the verybeginning?
Because to me this looks like awrong decision, but obviously
to you it wasn't a wrongdecision.
It's working to some degreeright, like you know, you can
absolutely argue that there wasa valid point there.
But understanding that why iscritical.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You know, when you're a consultant, when you're
making those kinds of decisionsand recommendations, Yep, yep,
if I may just comment on thatthought and that's a brilliant
way to put it right it's not foreveryone for sure.
There's always like anything inlife, there's always trade-offs
and you have to as anindividual, you have to decide
what it does for you, what itdoesn't do, and is that what you
(13:40):
want to do In consulting?
I think you're absolutely right.
That is broader exposure to alot of different companies, a
lot of different companies'problems and how each requires a
little bit of a unique approachto solving it, understanding
their culture, understandingtheir technology preferences and
so on and process design and soon.
(14:00):
It gives you a broad but veryrich kind of experience.
The downside is a lot of timesthe customer will say, well, you
have helped us, you know.
Let's say, you know, select asolution and implement that, but
you don't have the experienceof operating it.
You don't, you don't, you'reeven stuck around to see how it
actually works for years afterthat's implemented.
(14:22):
That's true A lot of times.
That's what is needed from anyparticular organization
standpoint the operationalexperience.
For me, it's always been thethrill of being able to go and
help the customer to go fromlike zero to 60 miles to 90
miles an hour and really helpthem be structured and focused
(14:42):
in this effort, because a lot oftimes also organizations are
stuck in this analysis paralysisprocess.
There's a lot of misalignmentof interests and objectives and,
you know, that's where I thinkconsultants do bring value to
organizations to help them alignon objectives and get more
organized and move forwardfaster and deliver results.
Where you know, if you just letit be the way it is, it would
(15:04):
have taken years.
So I think that's also fromboth my consulting experience
and now to being a founder of aproduct company.
I enjoy that a lot.
I think we as a company enjoythat a lot and now that we also
have a product, it's not justabout like the services and the
solution, design and so on.
It's also about delivering aproduct that plugs a hole or
(15:26):
meets a certain you know productrequirement.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, that is that's critical, you know, and I feel
like when I was starting out insecurity, right, I would get on
the call with these vendors andthey would just like kind of
throw like the whole you knowkitchen sink at you and
hopefully something would stickRight.
And I took that away, you know,kind of like as a as a lessons
(15:49):
learned, where now, when I'm inthe role that I'm in which I
don't know if it's fortunate orunfortunate that you know now
I'm allowed to like put mycompany on LinkedIn so people
can actually look it up.
But now, in the role that I'min, I mean, the very first thing
that I ask people right afterthe introduction is what's your
biggest problem?
You know what's your problems.
(16:11):
And the last thing that Irecommend typically is a product
right, because I want tounderstand their environment
before I go and say, hey, go buythis thing and it'll solve
everything.
Right, because, yeah, maybe itwill.
But if I'm not making thateducated decision and giving
them the proof and the reasonsand proving it all out to them,
you know it's kind of just,you're just another vendor, you
(16:31):
know, you're just anotherreseller or whatever it might be
.
And so being able to kind oftake my own experiences and then
modify that for what I alwayswanted when I was on the other
side of security, right, it's aninteresting situation, for sure
.
Now I wanted to ask you so youmentioned that you were on the
(16:51):
consulting side during therecession and right now the
economy seems, you know, alittle uncertain, right, like
we'll put it as that as beingpretty generous right From your
perspective.
Back then, did you see or maybeidentify consulting as maybe a
(17:11):
field that's a little bit moreresilient to economic
uncertainties?
And the reason why I questionit is because it actually makes
a lot of sense for that toactually potentially be true,
because, as as a, as a firm, youhave more than one customer.
You know, like, you're workingwith a whole lot of different
companies throughout a whole lotof different industries.
(17:32):
That company will still needyour skill set, you know,
potentially, yeah, there may bea little bit of a contraction,
but in essence, if they stillwant those business functions
running, you know, and stilloffering them up to customers,
they still need you to somedegree, right?
So, which I feel like is alittle bit different, because
internally, on the internal sideat companies, you know, you
(17:54):
always just, I always just feltlike I was a number, right, like
I'm just a number.
They can get rid of me at anypoint in time for no reason
whatsoever, and that's just howit is right.
Not every company operates thatway, but at the end of the day,
if the company has to choosebetween, you know, meeting their
shareholders demands andeliminating you like, you're
going to be the first one gone.
(18:14):
You know what was yourexperience with that?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, I think there's a couple interesting questions
here you're bringing up right.
So I think one that earlieryou're alluding to the economic
cycles and how consultingbusinesses adapt and survive
these cycles.
I think that I experienced.
I actually experienced even theone in the early 2000s, the
post dot-com cycle, but Istarted in an industry and I
(18:41):
think that's also a good exampleto highlight here.
Yes, a lot of the consultingindustry was shrinking at the
time, but what was emerging isfor today, it's become
cybersecurity consulting andagain the story repeated in
around the 2008, 2009 recession,I think also because
cybersecurity consulting andcybersecurity services in
(19:02):
general have proven to besomewhat recession resilient,
and I'll explain why.
And true also for this mostrecent, you know recessionary
cycle.
I think you know cybersecurityhas got this interesting aspect
that's different from other ITconsulting or, you know,
application, you knowdevelopment services or those
(19:25):
types of services.
Here's the big differenceSecurity is needed whether the
businesses are growing fast orshrinking fast.
Both present a very difficultchange for the organization to
manage and be able to manage therisk of that change.
So in a fast growth economy,the businesses are growing fast,
they're acquiring, they'reexpanding, they're investing in
(19:48):
new tools and new technologiesand people, of course, right,
and that needs to be donesecurely because otherwise
there's very, very painful priceto pay.
Now the reverse scenario iswhen they're shrinking fast.
Maybe they're shrinking theheadcount or divesting business
units and whatnot.
Again it presents a big sort ofsecurity risk, especially
(20:09):
nowadays, right, that's whysecurity services are somewhat
recession-proof.
I think one common problem thatthese businesses create for
themselves they grow too fast,they become sort of bloated and
when they can't support enoughbusiness because of the economic
(20:31):
cycles, they have to shrink theheadcount as well.
So that's when you know somepeople won't be there.
But the cycles also changequickly and you know a lot of
these companies actually do havethis sort of boomerang culture.
I've come across that atcompanies where they will rehire
people who were there before.
It's just you know, it's thetiming.
(20:51):
Unfortunately, the timingforced them to make those
decisions.
But I do think thecybersecurity consulting is
somewhat recession-proof.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it seems like it, right, because it's
different.
You know, for, like, internalcompanies, because, yes, you're
paying for a service and they'renot doing you know absolutely
everything, right, like on aninternal security team, you can
absolutely be asked to dosomething that is completely
(21:18):
outside of what you were hiredfor or skilled in or anything,
right.
But for consulting, you'rehiring someone for a very
specific task and if thatchanges, like, there's a lot of
different things that have to gowith it, you know, and you're
not paying for the medical,you're not paying for the
retirement, it's just an upfrontflat fee.
You know, typically, right, andso it's different, it's viewed
(21:40):
differently than an actualheadcount at a company, right.
So I think that both sides havetheir benefits.
You know their pros and theircons, but it's just, it's a
fascinating world, right,because we're in a transition
period right now and I knowpeople that have been unemployed
for almost two years, right andit's.
(22:00):
They're in a situation whereit's like, well, I don't even
know what I'm doing wrong.
You know, like, at this point Idon't know, I'm the type of
person that tries to pushforward and prepare for the
unknown and that sort of thing.
So it's just, you know it'svaluable to get that perspective
.
I guess Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yes, yes, it's painful when you happen to be
one of the people who thecompany says you know, look, we
don't have enough opportunityfor you, right?
But I don't think it's alwaystrue that there is no
opportunity in the market foryou, for your talent, for your
experience.
I think it's.
Yes, I know some people alsobeen in the past few months,
(22:37):
have been unemployed and arelooking, but really the only
thing they can do is continuelooking for the right
opportunities for themselves.
And also there's a greatopportunity right now to revisit
your skills and kind of doalmost like an honest
self-assessment of where youthink you can improve your
skills, whether it's thetechnical or soft skills or
whatnot and invest in that.
(22:57):
You have the time right now.
Invest in those gaps that youthink are going to help you, you
know, with it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
No, it's a really great point, you know, and it
kind of takes me back to likewhen COVID kicked off, right,
Like when COVID kicked off andwe're locked inside, you know,
with our significant other orwith ourselves, right, I
admittedly, yeah, I took a week,you know, caught up on some
shows and whatnot, but thenafter that, and literally every
day after that, I was revampingmy skills, right Like, I got
(23:28):
into content creation, I startedcreating courses, educational
courses, I started to teach onthe side, right, I started to do
this podcast.
I created that and all of thosethings built me in different
ways to where, you know, Ialready someone and explain the
problem and, you know, discusswhy there's a solution and this
(24:07):
is the right solution for youand whatnot.
To even just hold aconversation with anyone, you
know, of a diverse background,like I do on this podcast,
that's a skill in and of itselfand that actually makes it, you
know, kind of a rare commoditywithin the IT slash security
world for employers becausethey're like, oh well, this guy,
you know, this guy can talk,he's he's good on the phone,
(24:31):
he's good on the webcam, right,he does this podcast, he has the
brand and he has the technicalskills.
I mean, that's something youdon't see you know very often at
all, right, so it was aninteresting opportunity that I
definitely took advantage of.
But, you know, in an effortright to kind of maybe circle
back around to Bridev, why don'twe talk about the problem that
(24:53):
Bridev, you know, was created tosolve?
Right?
And I always want to startthere and I'll tell you why.
This is my own personalexperience with IAM in the cloud
is we had these cloud providersthat kind of took almost their
legacy approach to IAM and putit into the cloud and then they
(25:16):
made it readily accessible,available, ready to scale for
developers, to just blow up yourenvironment with a million
accounts, a million serviceaccounts, you know, user
accounts, all that sort of stuff.
And it's like they created, youknow a great solution and with
it came an insurmountableproblem.
(25:38):
And that is something that I'veexperienced firsthand where,
you know, I go into anenvironment and you know they
have like a thousand person,company, and there's a hundred
thousand IDs, right, there's ahundred thousand user accounts,
and I'm sitting here and it'slike, well, what are you doing?
Like, what's the purpose ofhaving a hundred thousand?
(25:58):
What are you getting the valueout of it.
You know what.
Do you even know what these arefor?
Like I bet I could eliminate 50000 right now and you won't
know what even broke, ifanything broke, you know yeah,
yeah, yeah, no, happy to share alittle bit of that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know how, how the whole idea kind of crystallized
for us to start another companyand build a product.
It was very much along thelines of what you described.
I think, having been in theidentity space, kind of in the
front row seat with a lot of theenterprise IAM projects and
(26:37):
products that we're deploying,we've seen where the companies
were somewhat blindsided to newenvironments and new problems
that were sort of alreadybrewing but hadn't yet
manifested themselves to thescale and size that would be
considered a big enough problemto solve.
(26:58):
What I'm referring to is in the2014, 2015,.
You had adoption of publiccloud technologies, aws, kind of
leading that movement.
You had teams that were alreadychanging the application
development and adopting newapproach like DevOps in
automation and tooling.
All that was happening sort ofalmost like outside of the main,
(27:19):
the control frameworks andconstructs that existed in the
same company that have beenbuilt and matured for years.
That includes identity andaccess, management, tooling and
process and so on and policies.
It almost felt like this newworld was sort of evolving and
emerging on its own and for awhile it was kind of not being
(27:40):
seen and noticed from securityand IEM side.
But it was also soon when wesaw the problems specifically in
the identity-related breachesin this environment.
You I'm sure will recall, onethat made big sort of headlines
was the Capital One breach inAWS, and that was already the
(28:02):
time when we Brighter was theproduct sort of the product
design was already in flight andwe had already talked to
several people in our circle,including CISOs and technology
leaders, who told us that, well,they couldn't use the existing
products in their cloudenvironments because the teams
didn't like them.
They were flat out sort ofrejecting these existing
(28:24):
products because they were seenas very sort of high friction
and more like a barrier to thevelocity, the agility of their
cloud environments and theprocesses.
So that was an interesting wayto sort of understand the
problem and then kind of reallystart digging into why.
Why that is the case.
(28:44):
And it came down to things likewell, one, the identity
products that we knew that werebuilt for data center were
really not built to be the firstline of defense.
They weren't built to be thefirst security product.
It was normally the firewallsand other layers of security.
Before you get to even theidentity management system,
cloud had completely turned itupside down.
(29:05):
It was the first line ofdefense.
The other thing was also withthat, security of access was
essentially assumed to be goodenough with the existing access
model Like, for example, you'rea developer, you need access to
compute in AWS, you need storage, whatever here's your admin
access to be able to stand upEC2 instances or whatever, and
(29:27):
that's fine because that's howthings have been done before
Turns out very bad idea Becauseas soon as that access gets in
the hands of a malicious user,something bad will happen.
That's what the Capital Onebreach really kind of surfaced
and a lot of times in the cloud,access was given very broadly
(29:47):
because the cloud technologiesbeing new technologies and the
infrastructure teams not beingIAM experts didn't really need
to go and understand every finegrain detail of access you know
and decide what would be theleast privileged access to give
to the user.
They just gave them full adminand that admin access existed 24
(30:12):
by 7, whether that user neededit or not.
And what also complicates andthe other part of the problem
you were alluding to is not onlythese users needed that access
to be able to go in and log inthemselves, they also need that
to automate things likeTerraform.
You know they wanted access forthe Terraform job to be able to
go and execute tasksautomatically.
There's your API tokens, keys,credentials, logins in some
(30:37):
cases, and, to your point, yeah,those things sort of quietly
exploded in the environment andnobody even noticed how it
happened.
For us, that was the tip of theiceberg.
That was what was actually tocome at a much bigger scale, a
few years down the road, whenthese organizations went to, for
(30:58):
example, using cloud, you know,just to try and deploy a few
applications to okay, now we'regoing to shift everything to
cloud, and we were predictingthat to happen.
Give it five years or so.
Cloud is going to become thecenter of gravity, not like some
kind of a project sandbox thatthey're going to do right.
Here we are.
(31:19):
That they're going to do right.
Here we are.
And soon after, we also wereseeing the evolution of new
technologies and AI very quicklycame to prove that.
So when we were thinking abouta solution, we were thinking
about that.
We were thinking about how thisproblem can go from you know
yeah, maybe it's a problemthat's not big enough today to
it is so big that, unless yousolve it now and you solve it
(31:43):
for your future five to 10 years, your business will most likely
suffer major losses andconsequences, and we saw some
businesses actually shut downfrom some sort of a catastrophic
breach right.
And I think that's also verymuch true now with the AI and
agentic AI initiatives thatorganizations are looking at and
(32:04):
saying if we don't really putsome security guardrails around
these new technologies, agenticAI and AI technologies that
we're adopting, they couldbecome catastrophic, you know,
if compromised, if breachedright.
So yeah, that's a little bit ofthe origin story and where we
are today with the newtechnologies.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of companies that
are still, or even people thatare still kind of not
understanding the real securityrisk with agentic AI.
You know, allowing an AI agentto have access to you know your,
your calendar, your email, yourtext messages right, your
(32:46):
account on, let's say, expediaor whatever.
You know when you're, whenyou're texting your friends
saying hey, let's go do a tripto to vegas, and that ai
immediately starts populating.
You know prices for differentthings based on what you guys
are talking about, and andyou're just you know, clicking a
button saying, yeah, book it,it goes and does that.
Well, it has your credit cardinformation.
(33:07):
It has access to all theseother accounts right, like it
has the ability.
If it has that ability, it'llchange it.
Right, like it could change itif it wanted to All these
different things, and so that'sjust that's exploding
environments, right, we're justat the very beginning of it.
I mean, this is literallysomething that is six, eight
(33:28):
months old for agentic AI.
I mean, I don't even think thatthat was a term last year, was
it?
Or was I just out of the game?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
No.
No, you're right.
No, it was about LLMs and Right, yeah, but agentic AI is
probably a year old.
That became sort of popular.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's when it really started to kind
of increase in its popularity ofuses, and I just feel like we
just spent the last year andpeople are just now kind of
waking up to what it actually isand people are just now kind of
waking up to what it actuallyis.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, and I think the example you were describing
earlier kind of that human to AIassistant interaction and AI
assistant performing tasks onbehalf of a human that's very,
very popular and very muchalready in production use, right
, both from business context andconsumer context standpoint.
But what we're also seeing now,as I'm sure you know, is the
(34:25):
agent-to-agent and agenticsystem deployments, and this is
where it's like the nextevolution of the agentic
technologies is when not only ahuman will direct an agent to do
things, but also in an agenticsystem, you have agents
directing other agents, creatingmaybe even agents kind of for a
(34:46):
specific task and potentiallyeven eliminating that agent when
the task is done.
Much more complex, much moreadvanced kind of AI use case,
much more difficult to secure aswell, and especially from
identity standpoint, yeah, youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Art, just from talking with you, right, like
you've obviously done thetechnical side, like you said in
the very beginning of oursession here, right, but now,
with you being the CEO of acompany, even though it's still
a technical company, right, likeI mean you're very much in the
weeds of people's environmentsand whatnot, how do you stay up
(35:22):
to date with all the differentevolutions of cybersecurity, of
technology overall that's goingon.
I mean we're seeing, like backto back, monumental shifts in
not just security but intechnology just overall, and so,
like I'm really curious to hearyour answer to it Because I
mean you're you're kind of inboth worlds.
(35:43):
I mean that's very difficult,that's really difficult to
achieve.
I haven't talked to that manyCEOs that have achieved that, in
my opinion at least.
You know like they kind of weretechnical at one point and then
they go into the leadershiprole and it kind of drops off.
You know, like that's verycommon with a lot of leaders and
really any industry probably,right, so how do you stay up to
(36:06):
date on everything?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Wow, that's a great question and I don't know if
anybody's asked that question insimilar discussions, at least
in the recent memory.
I appreciate that questionbecause to me, that question,
because to me that's very muchhow I have evolved as a
professional, as a leader, as anentrepreneur and so on.
I think learning is constantand especially in this space,
(36:37):
especially in the cybersecurityspace, today, you miss a beat,
you're behind by years and it'svery hard to catch up.
My approach has always been toreally kind of put myself a
little bit in an uncomfortablesituation, so it forces me to
constantly stay on top of it,and some examples of this would
be let's take a Gen, take AI,for example, and I was a few
months ago I think it was at aGoogle conference and it was the
(37:00):
theme of the conference.
And before I showed up thereand I had set up some meetings
with some analysts, someprospects and customers, and
before I showed up there, Iblocked off time and said I need
to get up to speed with what'sgoing on.
What's Google talking abouthere?
You know what is the A2A, youknow standard they just
(37:22):
published and things like that.
Because when I show up and Italk to people there.
I want to sound like I know atleast the ABCs of that, right?
So I kind of really forcemyself to be ready for these
conversations and it's becomesort of natural, Doesn't make me
almost like, doesn't make meuncomfortable anymore.
(37:47):
But the initial learning curvealways is a bit uncomfortable,
right, you're trying to wrapyour head around some
terminology, some concepts thatyou've not heard before.
Or you know, sometimes you'veheard the terminology but like,
let's take that anthropics, mcp,like model context, protocol,
and like wow, I understand thewords but I don't know what the
hell this means together, right,things like that really kind of
pushes you to try to reallyunderstand what is going on.
(38:07):
How are the people who areintroducing these technologies
and these concepts?
How do they think?
Who are they, what roles theyhave in these companies?
So that's how I kind of reallytry to keep myself in the loop
and up to speed on the differenttechnologies.
The conversations are soimportant.
Also, when you have a goodconversation with someone who
(38:27):
also understands the space andthey're much deeper than you are
in the space, very quicklearning there as well.
Hopefully that answers thequestion.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
I really relate to you when yousaid, you know, going into an
uncomfortable situation, right,because that forces you to
either sink or swim, and I thinkeveryone would rather swim
rather than sink, right, thatwould not be fun and I relate to
(38:56):
it myself.
You know, I'm sure my audienceis so tired of me, you know,
talking about my PhD, right, butpart of the reason why I went
down the journey of, you know,doing my PhD was because I was I
realized that I was getting toocomfortable, even with the
difficult stuff that I was doing, and I needed to push myself
(39:16):
right.
And I couldn't have done it,maybe at a worse time in my life
.
I'm still going through itright now.
But I mean having two kidsduring your phd, you know, I got
a two-year-old and afour-month-old and it's like,
it's insane, what, like?
What if I could go back andjust smack the younger joe, you
know, in the face and be likewhat are you thinking about?
Like, no, you're an idiot.
(39:37):
Stop, stop doing it.
Like I would, you know, becausethat, because that is so stupid
.
But you know, again, there'ssome value when something is so
difficult and there's so muchpressure, right that you, you
just you have to come out on top, and I find myself, you know,
doing what you mentioned as well, right, when there's a meeting
coming up that you know, I knowI need to know these three
(40:01):
things, and I know one of them,or I know two of them, right,
well, the other one is okay.
Well, what did this person inthis call write about it
recently, you know?
Did they write anything aboutit?
Is there any papers out on itfrom their company or anything
like that?
Like I should be prepared,which is funny, because I'll do
that for my day job, but then Iwon't do it for the podcast and
(40:22):
all of these questions have beenunscripted.
So it's like it makes for aninteresting conversation, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, and kudos to you that doing a PhD with two
kids and a full-time job, thatis, I mean you really set the
bar so high for yourself thatyou know it really.
I think it's about, like, howyou manage your priorities and
how you keep yourselfdisciplined about your life,
your educational pursuits, yourprofession and everything right
(40:51):
yeah it's like it couldn't beany more difficult.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's probably 10 times more difficult than what I
expected going into it, andit's also because I'm I am
studying an area that I have noexperience with.
Right About two thirds of it.
I've never touched satellitesbefore.
I've never touched quantumencryption before.
You know, I know like the basefoundation of the research, but
(41:15):
it's like to put it on top of,you know, the already
extenuating circumstances isjust insane.
But it also makes me learnquicker too, right, because I
can't reread these papers 10times like I used to be able to
in my bachelor's or my master's.
I don't have the time.
I have a little kid that youknow I call a terrorist jokingly
(41:36):
, but she is a little terroristand if I let her run around the
house, you know unimpeded likeI'm going to come back and like
the couch is going to be on fireor something you know, like
that's how, that's just how sheis, so like I have to use my
time very efficiently, you know,and very effectively.
So I'm not revisiting thesethings.
I get it, I consume it, Iunderstand it and I'm moving
(41:57):
forward with the next, the nexttopic.
But you know it, and I'm movingforward with the next topic,
but I didn't mean to drone outthere a little bit too long at
the podcast.
Unfortunately, we're at the topof our time here.
I mean the conversation hasjust flown by.
I feel like I need another hourwith you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Same here.
Yeah, it's been a great, greatconversation, great to hear a
little bit about you and yourlife, your professional and
personal life.
I think, yeah, this is rare,this format is rare, and I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well, Art.
I really appreciate you comingon.
And before I let you go, howabout you tell my audience where
they could find you if theywanted to connect with you and
where they could find Bridev ifthey wanted to learn more?
And, you know, maybe gettogether to learn more about the
solution.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, certainly.
So I am very active on LinkedIn.
It's really kind of my onlysocial network that I try to
keep up with and stay active on,so they can always find me on
LinkedIn.
My email Bridev email is art atBridevcom, brightofcom.
(43:02):
And just a couple words aboutbright of, and our mission today
is really to make sure we helpthe, the companies and the
leaders at these companiesmanage their, their move move to
an adoption of moderntechnologies, and ai is one of
the big ones.
It's very challenging.
They're not not all answers arealready known yet, but bright
of is a, is a company.
As a company and a team, we arealways there to be a partner.
(43:26):
Our technology was built in.
We have dozens of enterprise,very large organizations that
we've already partnered over thepast few years and helped them
accomplish these goals, whetherit was a cloud adoption, public
cloud, private cloud and todayAI, and that's what we bring to
our relationships.
Happy to hear from anyone whois currently trying to address
(43:48):
problems, whether it's the cloud, public cloud, multi-cloud AI,
energetic AI and identities oneverybody's mind at the moment.
Feel free to reach out.
We'd love to have a chat.
We'd love to even justbrainstorm if that helps.
We enjoyed the time today and,joe, great to be on the show and
be talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it was a fantastic
conversation.
Well, you know everyone.
If you're looking to learn moreabout Bride Develop, put the
links down in the description ofthis episode.
And yeah, thanks for listeningeveryone.
How's it going?
Art, it's great to get you onthe podcast.
You know I'm not sure when thiswas scheduled, to be completely
honest with you.
But you know I'm glad that wedidn't have to go through like a
process of rescheduling andeverything else.
But I'm sure my fall is aboutto go into that mode because my
kids are back in daycare fulltime and they're just about to
(00:23):
start getting sick, I know it.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gosh, yeah, great to be here, joe, and I was looking
forward to the conversationtoday.
I'm glad the schedules andeverything worked out.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's challenging at times, forsure, you know, because like
you're trying to bring your ownschedule, which is already like
jam-packed, you know, withsomeone like yours, right, where
it's like okay, I think I havean hour this week.
You know what I mean.
It's like it can be prettycrazy.
And we're just on the other endof kind of like the busy season
(00:54):
for cybersecurity conferences,right, like it kind of kicks off
end of April during, you know,middle of May with like RSA and
then kind of wraps wraps up withBlack Hat and DEF CON and
whatnot.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
True, true, but we do have a couple important ones
towards the end of the year.
Gartner IAM is a big one thatwe usually tend, and it happens
to be in December, I think,right after AWS, reinvents, yeah
, so I'll be on the road.
I don't know about you, butI'll be on the road for a few of
the conferences until end ofthe year.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, I haven't been to AWS reInvent or reInforce for
that matter.
I really want to go, though.
I feel like I would reallyenjoy it.
You know AWS is the cloud thatI'm like the most I guess
officially like certified in and, you know, most experienced
with, so a lot of this stuffjust like kind of makes sense to
(01:43):
me, like by default, right,because you go through those
such an arduous process gettingthose professional level
certifications.
It's like grilled into you, youknow.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, I would recommend certainly reinvent and
reinforce as well.
If your focus is more onsecurity.
Both would be great events.
I would certainly recommend.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah yeah, maybe, maybe next year.
I mean, I the problem is I getseparation anxiety for my kids,
right, and so I'm sure they they, you know get a little bit
anxious when I'm away too.
But now it's like I'm in a partwhere it's like, okay, I want
to go to DEF CON, you know.
I want to go to AWS, reinforceand reinvent.
I got to like shuttle thesekids around too because I want
(02:23):
go to it, you know.
So it's just, it's moredifficult, it's more logistics
and everything which you know isnormal with kids.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I guess, right, like yeah, I've got everything more
complex.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I've got three, so I'm very familiar with the story
yeah, yeah, well, art, you know, why don't we dive into your
background?
Right?
How did you get into IT?
What made you want to go down?
Security, you know as like aspecialty.
And then you know, maybe forthat third phase of it, why in
the world do you want to, youknow, lead a company or be a CEO
(03:00):
of a company in this space?
I mean, it just seems like sucha competitive space.
You know, like me, trying toconvince myself to do it, it
would be difficult for me toconvince myself to do it because
it's so competitive.
It's like, well, you know, Idon't know, I'm going to put all
this time and money and effortinto it and it may not work out
right.
Like, what was that journeylike for you?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, I really appreciate the question because
when you look at startups andcompanies and so on, what you
see is from the PR lens, right,what you see from publicly
available information and so on,what you don't see a lot of is
the history, the genesis of thevision and all that.
And I appreciate the question.
And it does start with people.
(03:40):
It does start with the personsetting goals and seeing an
opportunity and so on.
So for me, how I started in IT,I would say it was pretty much
in IT security right off the bat, because I had just graduated
from the master's program with aspecialization in technology
risk management and startedworking for a big four firm
(04:06):
right at the gate and the ITsecurity was a very sort of a
niche segment of the technologyservices market and you had a
lot of the people who were inthat space were with former
military, dod, nsa background.
Not so many people camedirectly from the graduate
school or commercial sector.
(04:26):
So it was competitive back thenwhen these people were already
fairly seasoned, you knowsecurity analysts and systems
engineers and so on.
But I loved it right out thedoor.
I mean the big companiesusually they don't waste time.
They put you on a project evenin the first week and you're off
to some client and doing somework already right.
(04:48):
So you learn, kind of learn asyou go.
For me, security in the firstcouple of years was mostly about
vulnerability management,network penetration, testing and
so on.
Those are early 2000s, whereI'm talking about right 2002,
2003.
But there was an interestingpivot moment there and I got
pulled into a project that wasnot about breaking stuff like
(05:11):
network controls, it was moreabout actually deploying it.
At the time the LDAPdirectories were becoming
popular and you know they werebeing used as network
authentication systems and so on.
I got pulled into a project todesign an LDAP director and
deploy it on the customer'snetwork and when I did that I
learned.
It was a steep learning curvebut I learned the other side of
(05:34):
tech or security technologies,not the side and the tools that
you use to break it, but theones that you use to actually
build security, and thatactually excited me a lot more.
I kind of really decided tojust seek those opportunities,
and very quickly.
You probably remember somenames from those days, like
companies like Netegrity was thefirst in the single sign-on
(05:56):
authentication space.
Others at the time CA had someother interesting technologies
which Netegrity actually laterwas acquired by CA.
So I got more opportunities tokind of go deeper into what
would become later identityaccess management.
At the time it wasauthentication, sso, ldap
directories and I continued tofocus on that and as part of EY,
(06:19):
where I was part of theircybersecurity practice, I worked
on a lot of projects with majoryou, with major enterprise
organizations, fortune 100s, todeploy the identity and access
management products which werebecoming a little bit broader
than just authentication.
Soon we started seeing theaccess provisioning and
privileged access productsstarting to enter the market,
(06:41):
and that took me to about 2009.
To enter the market, and thattook me to about 2009.
And that's when I really sawkind of that, had this
entrepreneurial itch.
I didn't even know what it wasall at the time, but I felt like
there was a bigger opportunitythat I wanted to address and
just as an entrepreneur, ratherthan just being a part of a big
(07:02):
company and you know, servingclients, but being part of a
bigger brand name and a team, Ifelt like the opportunities to
really kind of address the needin the market differently, with
much more focused and expertkind of approach, which would
also mean alignment, very closealignment with the technology
and products that are in themarket, which, if you know the
(07:24):
big four model, the bigconsulting model they always
present an agnostic view.
They want to always be atrusted advisor and not present
any kind of a biased view of anyproduct, which is great, I mean
.
That's very much appreciated byclients.
But there's also a point fromthe customer standpoint where
they want a partner to help themdefine very technical and
(07:48):
specific requirements, find aproduct that will meet the
requirements and help themdeploy it and move to production
and maybe even operate in thesupport mode afterwards.
That was the opportunity I sawin the market afterwards.
That was the opportunity I sawin the market and at the time it
was also the if you rememberthe mortgage, you know the
(08:12):
mortgage meltdown and recessionthat followed that.
The mortgage industry meltdown,a lot of companies, the budget
shrunk, almost disappeared, butthe compliance needs did it and
that helped me get started withmy first business.
I started a company calledAdvanced Technology Solutions
focusing on, specifically,identity and access management
solutions, design andimplementation services, and
some of the great names you seein the market today were still
(08:34):
early stage startups, the likesof Ping, identity and Avexa,
which RSA acquired SailPoint bigplayer in the space, even like
PAM vendors that you know todayare the top, the big three, as
they call them CyberArk, delenia, fiat Trust.
We're new in the market andtheir market traction was just
starting to accelerate Workedwith those companies and became
(08:56):
a trusted partner to helpimplement these products for
their customers.
We had a great run for aboutsix years, I would say.
And Optif Security, a bigservices player in the
cybersecurity space, noticed usand felt that the
identity-related services are abig and growing business and
(09:16):
they came and offered to acquirethe business.
The timing of that exit wasvery interesting because at
Vance and my company beforeBrighton, timing that exit was
(09:36):
very interesting because atVance my company before Brighton
, we already had built someproducts of our own which we
weren't really selling asproducts but we're selling as
more integration solutionsbetween various vendor solutions
, vendor products, and we werealready starting to see a bigger
opportunity to move into aproduct business.
Moving to a product business,optive Acquisition kind of gave
us a sort of a great sort ofexit ramp into the next
objective, which becameBrightiff.
Brightiff is all about cloudnative identity and access
management.
(09:56):
Privileged access is kind ofour primary lens on access, but
it's also about a broaderidentity landscape.
Back then, when we wereimplementing SailPoint, ping
Identity and so on, theseproducts were primarily designed
and deployed for humanidentities.
We saw that change very quicklyand today, as you I'm sure know
(10:19):
, there's a lot more of othertype of identities, like machine
workload NHI generally is howthe industry is referred to them
and there's yet a special newtype of identities agentic
identities and AI identities,right.
So for us it's all about theworld that we were moving into
and kind of leaving the datacenter behind, and there are
(10:41):
products that have been therefor years and they do the job
for the data center.
But our main focus was thefuture technologies and the new
needs and new identity kind ofproblems that we we could solve,
that we wanted to solve.
So that got us really kind ofexcited and you know there's not
been a dull day since westarted Brightim.
I'm sure you're well aware ofthat in this space.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Yeah, no, it's definitely a fascinating journey
.
You know, I've done over and Ithink it's over 250 episodes at
this point, right, and I haven'theard the same background twice
, you know, but every time thatI've talked to people that went
to consulting, they all say theexact same thing that, like,
(11:25):
you're basically drinking fromthe fire hose, you know, like
they immediately throw you intothe fire and you either sink or
swim.
Basically, you know, I thinkback, like right now, I wouldn't
want to like go to the, theconsulting, like the big, the
big four route, necessarily,because it's just so much travel
, right, you're travelingconstantly.
(11:48):
That's not very conducive for,you know, someone that wants to
be like a like you know not,someone that wants to be you
know something, right, but forsomeone with a young family,
that's not very conducive, right?
So I couldn't imagine doing itright now and earlier on in my
career I feel like I wouldn't begood at it because I wouldn't.
I don't know if I'd be able tolike swim, you know, so to speak
(12:09):
, but it's.
It's interesting.
Everyone that I've talked toand I've talked to people that
actually got out of it, you know, within like six months of
starting at one of the big four.
This is like yeah, you know I'mon the road four out of five
days a week, every single week.
Yeah, I have a whole lot ofpoints and miles and everything
(12:30):
else, but like I'm paying for anapartment that I'm not even at,
you know, it's an interestingworld.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Expensive storage, as we used to call it Expensive
storage.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, and you get exposure, though, like, the
benefit is that you get exposureto so many different things.
I mean, you get exposure to aninfinite amount of environments
and configurations and reasonsand purposes behind why it was
built that way, which is reallyas a consultant.
You have to understand that.
You have to understand, heywell, why did you make this
(13:00):
decision right from the verybeginning?
Because to me this looks like awrong decision, but obviously
to you it wasn't a wrongdecision.
It's working to some degreeright, like you know, you can
absolutely argue that there wasa valid point there.
But understanding that why iscritical.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You know, when you're a consultant, when you're
making those kinds of decisionsand recommendations, Yep, yep,
if I may just comment on thatthought and that's a brilliant
way to put it right it's not foreveryone for sure.
There's always like anything inlife, there's always trade-offs
and you have to as anindividual, you have to decide
what it does for you, what itdoesn't do, and is that what you
(13:40):
want to do In consulting?
I think you're absolutely right.
That is broader exposure to alot of different companies, a
lot of different companies'problems and how each requires a
little bit of a unique approachto solving it, understanding
their culture, understandingtheir technology preferences and
so on and process design and soon.
(14:00):
It gives you a broad but veryrich kind of experience.
The downside is a lot of timesthe customer will say, well, you
have helped us, you know.
Let's say, you know, select asolution and implement that, but
you don't have the experienceof operating it.
You don't, you don't, you'reeven stuck around to see how it
actually works for years afterthat's implemented.
(14:22):
That's true A lot of times.
That's what is needed from anyparticular organization
standpoint the operationalexperience.
For me, it's always been thethrill of being able to go and
help the customer to go fromlike zero to 60 miles to 90
miles an hour and really helpthem be structured and focused
(14:42):
in this effort, because a lot oftimes also organizations are
stuck in this analysis paralysisprocess.
There's a lot of misalignmentof interests and objectives and,
you know, that's where I thinkconsultants do bring value to
organizations to help them alignon objectives and get more
organized and move forwardfaster and deliver results.
Where you know, if you just letit be the way it is, it would
(15:04):
have taken years.
So I think that's also fromboth my consulting experience
and now to being a founder of aproduct company.
I enjoy that a lot.
I think we as a company enjoythat a lot and now that we also
have a product, it's not justabout like the services and the
solution, design and so on.
It's also about delivering aproduct that plugs a hole or
(15:26):
meets a certain you know productrequirement.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, that is that's critical, you know, and I feel
like when I was starting out insecurity, right, I would get on
the call with these vendors andthey would just like kind of
throw like the whole you knowkitchen sink at you and
hopefully something would stickRight.
And I took that away, you know,kind of like as a as a lessons
(15:49):
learned, where now, when I'm inthe role that I'm in which I
don't know if it's fortunate orunfortunate that you know now
I'm allowed to like put mycompany on LinkedIn so people
can actually look it up.
But now, in the role that I'min, I mean, the very first thing
that I ask people right afterthe introduction is what's your
biggest problem?
You know what's your problems.
(16:11):
And the last thing that Irecommend typically is a product
right, because I want tounderstand their environment
before I go and say, hey, go buythis thing and it'll solve
everything.
Right, because, yeah, maybe itwill.
But if I'm not making thateducated decision and giving
them the proof and the reasonsand proving it all out to them,
you know it's kind of just,you're just another vendor, you
(16:31):
know, you're just anotherreseller or whatever it might be
.
And so being able to kind oftake my own experiences and then
modify that for what I alwayswanted when I was on the other
side of security, right, it's aninteresting situation, for sure
.
Now I wanted to ask you so youmentioned that you were on the
(16:51):
consulting side during therecession and right now the
economy seems, you know, alittle uncertain, right, like
we'll put it as that as beingpretty generous right From your
perspective.
Back then, did you see or maybeidentify consulting as maybe a
(17:11):
field that's a little bit moreresilient to economic
uncertainties?
And the reason why I questionit is because it actually makes
a lot of sense for that toactually potentially be true,
because, as as a, as a firm, youhave more than one customer.
You know, like, you're workingwith a whole lot of different
companies throughout a whole lotof different industries.
(17:32):
That company will still needyour skill set, you know,
potentially, yeah, there may bea little bit of a contraction,
but in essence, if they stillwant those business functions
running, you know, and stilloffering them up to customers,
they still need you to somedegree, right?
So, which I feel like is alittle bit different, because
internally, on the internal sideat companies, you know, you
(17:54):
always just, I always just feltlike I was a number, right, like
I'm just a number.
They can get rid of me at anypoint in time for no reason
whatsoever, and that's just howit is right.
Not every company operates thatway, but at the end of the day,
if the company has to choosebetween, you know, meeting their
shareholders demands andeliminating you like, you're
going to be the first one gone.
(18:14):
You know what was yourexperience with that?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, I think there's a couple interesting questions
here you're bringing up right.
So I think one that earlieryou're alluding to the economic
cycles and how consultingbusinesses adapt and survive
these cycles.
I think that I experienced.
I actually experienced even theone in the early 2000s, the
post dot-com cycle, but Istarted in an industry and I
(18:41):
think that's also a good exampleto highlight here.
Yes, a lot of the consultingindustry was shrinking at the
time, but what was emerging isfor today, it's become
cybersecurity consulting andagain the story repeated in
around the 2008, 2009 recession,I think also because
cybersecurity consulting andcybersecurity services in
(19:02):
general have proven to besomewhat recession resilient,
and I'll explain why.
And true also for this mostrecent, you know recessionary
cycle.
I think you know cybersecurityhas got this interesting aspect
that's different from other ITconsulting or, you know,
application, you knowdevelopment services or those
(19:25):
types of services.
Here's the big differenceSecurity is needed whether the
businesses are growing fast orshrinking fast.
Both present a very difficultchange for the organization to
manage and be able to manage therisk of that change.
So in a fast growth economy,the businesses are growing fast,
they're acquiring, they'reexpanding, they're investing in
(19:48):
new tools and new technologiesand people, of course, right,
and that needs to be donesecurely because otherwise
there's very, very painful priceto pay.
Now the reverse scenario iswhen they're shrinking fast.
Maybe they're shrinking theheadcount or divesting business
units and whatnot.
Again it presents a big sort ofsecurity risk, especially
(20:09):
nowadays, right, that's whysecurity services are somewhat
recession-proof.
I think one common problem thatthese businesses create for
themselves they grow too fast,they become sort of bloated and
when they can't support enoughbusiness because of the economic
(20:31):
cycles, they have to shrink theheadcount as well.
So that's when you know somepeople won't be there.
But the cycles also changequickly and you know a lot of
these companies actually do havethis sort of boomerang culture.
I've come across that atcompanies where they will rehire
people who were there before.
It's just you know, it's thetiming.
(20:51):
Unfortunately, the timingforced them to make those
decisions.
But I do think thecybersecurity consulting is
somewhat recession-proof.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, it seems like it, right, because it's
different.
You know, for, like, internalcompanies, because, yes, you're
paying for a service and they'renot doing you know absolutely
everything, right, like on aninternal security team, you can
absolutely be asked to dosomething that is completely
(21:18):
outside of what you were hiredfor or skilled in or anything,
right.
But for consulting, you'rehiring someone for a very
specific task and if thatchanges, like, there's a lot of
different things that have to gowith it, you know, and you're
not paying for the medical,you're not paying for the
retirement, it's just an upfrontflat fee.
You know, typically, right, andso it's different, it's viewed
(21:40):
differently than an actualheadcount at a company, right.
So I think that both sides havetheir benefits.
You know their pros and theircons, but it's just, it's a
fascinating world, right,because we're in a transition
period right now and I knowpeople that have been unemployed
for almost two years, right andit's.
(22:00):
They're in a situation whereit's like, well, I don't even
know what I'm doing wrong.
You know, like, at this point Idon't know, I'm the type of
person that tries to pushforward and prepare for the
unknown and that sort of thing.
So it's just, you know it'svaluable to get that perspective
.
I guess Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yes, yes, it's painful when you happen to be
one of the people who thecompany says you know, look, we
don't have enough opportunityfor you, right?
But I don't think it's alwaystrue that there is no
opportunity in the market foryou, for your talent, for your
experience.
I think it's.
Yes, I know some people alsobeen in the past few months,
(22:37):
have been unemployed and arelooking, but really the only
thing they can do is continuelooking for the right
opportunities for themselves.
And also there's a greatopportunity right now to revisit
your skills and kind of doalmost like an honest
self-assessment of where youthink you can improve your
skills, whether it's thetechnical or soft skills or
whatnot and invest in that.
(22:57):
You have the time right now.
Invest in those gaps that youthink are going to help you, you
know, with it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
No, it's a really great point, you know, and it
kind of takes me back to likewhen COVID kicked off, right,
Like when COVID kicked off andwe're locked inside, you know,
with our significant other orwith ourselves, right, I
admittedly, yeah, I took a week,you know, caught up on some
shows and whatnot, but thenafter that, and literally every
day after that, I was revampingmy skills, right Like, I got
(23:28):
into content creation, I startedcreating courses, educational
courses, I started to teach onthe side, right, I started to do
this podcast.
I created that and all of thosethings built me in different
ways to where, you know, Ialready someone and explain the
problem and, you know, discusswhy there's a solution and this
(24:07):
is the right solution for youand whatnot.
To even just hold aconversation with anyone, you
know, of a diverse background,like I do on this podcast,
that's a skill in and of itselfand that actually makes it, you
know, kind of a rare commoditywithin the IT slash security
world for employers becausethey're like, oh well, this guy,
you know, this guy can talk,he's he's good on the phone,
(24:31):
he's good on the webcam, right,he does this podcast, he has the
brand and he has the technicalskills.
I mean, that's something youdon't see you know very often at
all, right, so it was aninteresting opportunity that I
definitely took advantage of.
But, you know, in an effortright to kind of maybe circle
back around to Bridev, why don'twe talk about the problem that
(24:53):
Bridev, you know, was created tosolve?
Right?
And I always want to startthere and I'll tell you why.
This is my own personalexperience with IAM in the cloud
is we had these cloud providersthat kind of took almost their
legacy approach to IAM and putit into the cloud and then they
(25:16):
made it readily accessible,available, ready to scale for
developers, to just blow up yourenvironment with a million
accounts, a million serviceaccounts, you know, user
accounts, all that sort of stuff.
And it's like they created, youknow a great solution and with
it came an insurmountableproblem.
(25:38):
And that is something that I'veexperienced firsthand where,
you know, I go into anenvironment and you know they
have like a thousand person,company, and there's a hundred
thousand IDs, right, there's ahundred thousand user accounts,
and I'm sitting here and it'slike, well, what are you doing?
Like, what's the purpose ofhaving a hundred thousand?
(25:58):
What are you getting the valueout of it.
You know what.
Do you even know what these arefor?
Like I bet I could eliminate 50000 right now and you won't
know what even broke, ifanything broke, you know yeah,
yeah, yeah, no, happy to share alittle bit of that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know how, how the whole idea kind of crystallized
for us to start another companyand build a product.
It was very much along thelines of what you described.
I think, having been in theidentity space, kind of in the
front row seat with a lot of theenterprise IAM projects and
(26:37):
products that we're deploying,we've seen where the companies
were somewhat blindsided to newenvironments and new problems
that were sort of alreadybrewing but hadn't yet
manifested themselves to thescale and size that would be
considered a big enough problemto solve.
(26:58):
What I'm referring to is in the2014, 2015,.
You had adoption of publiccloud technologies, aws, kind of
leading that movement.
You had teams that were alreadychanging the application
development and adopting newapproach like DevOps in
automation and tooling.
All that was happening sort ofalmost like outside of the main,
(27:19):
the control frameworks andconstructs that existed in the
same company that have beenbuilt and matured for years.
That includes identity andaccess, management, tooling and
process and so on and policies.
It almost felt like this newworld was sort of evolving and
emerging on its own and for awhile it was kind of not being
(27:40):
seen and noticed from securityand IEM side.
But it was also soon when wesaw the problems specifically in
the identity-related breachesin this environment.
You I'm sure will recall, onethat made big sort of headlines
was the Capital One breach inAWS, and that was already the
(28:02):
time when we Brighter was theproduct sort of the product
design was already in flight andwe had already talked to
several people in our circle,including CISOs and technology
leaders, who told us that, well,they couldn't use the existing
products in their cloudenvironments because the teams
didn't like them.
They were flat out sort ofrejecting these existing
(28:24):
products because they were seenas very sort of high friction
and more like a barrier to thevelocity, the agility of their
cloud environments and theprocesses.
So that was an interesting wayto sort of understand the
problem and then kind of reallystart digging into why.
Why that is the case.
(28:44):
And it came down to things likewell, one, the identity
products that we knew that werebuilt for data center were
really not built to be the firstline of defense.
They weren't built to be thefirst security product.
It was normally the firewallsand other layers of security.
Before you get to even theidentity management system,
cloud had completely turned itupside down.
(29:05):
It was the first line ofdefense.
The other thing was also withthat, security of access was
essentially assumed to be goodenough with the existing access
model Like, for example, you'rea developer, you need access to
compute in AWS, you need storage, whatever here's your admin
access to be able to stand upEC2 instances or whatever, and
(29:27):
that's fine because that's howthings have been done before
Turns out very bad idea Becauseas soon as that access gets in
the hands of a malicious user,something bad will happen.
That's what the Capital Onebreach really kind of surfaced
and a lot of times in the cloud,access was given very broadly
(29:47):
because the cloud technologiesbeing new technologies and the
infrastructure teams not beingIAM experts didn't really need
to go and understand every finegrain detail of access you know
and decide what would be theleast privileged access to give
to the user.
They just gave them full adminand that admin access existed 24
(30:12):
by 7, whether that user neededit or not.
And what also complicates andthe other part of the problem
you were alluding to is not onlythese users needed that access
to be able to go in and log inthemselves, they also need that
to automate things likeTerraform.
You know they wanted access forthe Terraform job to be able to
go and execute tasksautomatically.
There's your API tokens, keys,credentials, logins in some
(30:37):
cases, and, to your point, yeah,those things sort of quietly
exploded in the environment andnobody even noticed how it
happened.
For us, that was the tip of theiceberg.
That was what was actually tocome at a much bigger scale, a
few years down the road, whenthese organizations went to, for
(30:58):
example, using cloud, you know,just to try and deploy a few
applications to okay, now we'regoing to shift everything to
cloud, and we were predictingthat to happen.
Give it five years or so.
Cloud is going to become thecenter of gravity, not like some
kind of a project sandbox thatthey're going to do right.
Here we are.
(31:19):
That they're going to do right.
Here we are.
And soon after, we also wereseeing the evolution of new
technologies and AI very quicklycame to prove that.
So when we were thinking abouta solution, we were thinking
about that.
We were thinking about how thisproblem can go from you know
yeah, maybe it's a problemthat's not big enough today to
it is so big that, unless yousolve it now and you solve it
(31:43):
for your future five to 10 years, your business will most likely
suffer major losses andconsequences, and we saw some
businesses actually shut downfrom some sort of a catastrophic
breach right.
And I think that's also verymuch true now with the AI and
agentic AI initiatives thatorganizations are looking at and
(32:04):
saying if we don't really putsome security guardrails around
these new technologies, agenticAI and AI technologies that
we're adopting, they couldbecome catastrophic, you know,
if compromised, if breachedright.
So yeah, that's a little bit ofthe origin story and where we
are today with the newtechnologies.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of companies that
are still, or even people thatare still kind of not
understanding the real securityrisk with agentic AI.
You know, allowing an AI agentto have access to you know your,
your calendar, your email, yourtext messages right, your
(32:46):
account on, let's say, expediaor whatever.
You know when you're, whenyou're texting your friends
saying hey, let's go do a tripto to vegas, and that ai
immediately starts populating.
You know prices for differentthings based on what you guys
are talking about, and andyou're just you know, clicking a
button saying, yeah, book it,it goes and does that.
Well, it has your credit cardinformation.
(33:07):
It has access to all theseother accounts right, like it
has the ability.
If it has that ability, it'llchange it.
Right, like it could change itif it wanted to All these
different things, and so that'sjust that's exploding
environments, right, we're justat the very beginning of it.
I mean, this is literallysomething that is six, eight
(33:28):
months old for agentic AI.
I mean, I don't even think thatthat was a term last year, was
it?
Or was I just out of the game?
Speaker 2 (33:36):
No.
No, you're right.
No, it was about LLMs and Right, yeah, but agentic AI is
probably a year old.
That became sort of popular.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's when it really started to kind
of increase in its popularity ofuses, and I just feel like we
just spent the last year andpeople are just now kind of
waking up to what it actually isand people are just now kind of
waking up to what it actuallyis.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, and I think the example you were describing
earlier kind of that human to AIassistant interaction and AI
assistant performing tasks onbehalf of a human that's very,
very popular and very muchalready in production use, right
, both from business context andconsumer context standpoint.
But what we're also seeing now,as I'm sure you know, is the
(34:25):
agent-to-agent and agenticsystem deployments, and this is
where it's like the nextevolution of the agentic
technologies is when not only ahuman will direct an agent to do
things, but also in an agenticsystem, you have agents
directing other agents, creatingmaybe even agents kind of for a
(34:46):
specific task and potentiallyeven eliminating that agent when
the task is done.
Much more complex, much moreadvanced kind of AI use case,
much more difficult to secure aswell, and especially from
identity standpoint, yeah, youknow.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Art, just from talking with you, right, like
you've obviously done thetechnical side, like you said in
the very beginning of oursession here, right, but now,
with you being the CEO of acompany, even though it's still
a technical company, right, likeI mean you're very much in the
weeds of people's environmentsand whatnot, how do you stay up
(35:22):
to date with all the differentevolutions of cybersecurity, of
technology overall that's goingon.
I mean we're seeing, like backto back, monumental shifts in
not just security but intechnology just overall, and so,
like I'm really curious to hearyour answer to it Because I
mean you're you're kind of inboth worlds.
(35:43):
I mean that's very difficult,that's really difficult to
achieve.
I haven't talked to that manyCEOs that have achieved that, in
my opinion at least.
You know like they kind of weretechnical at one point and then
they go into the leadershiprole and it kind of drops off.
You know, like that's verycommon with a lot of leaders and
really any industry probably,right, so how do you stay up to
(36:06):
date on everything?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Wow, that's a great question and I don't know if
anybody's asked that question insimilar discussions, at least
in the recent memory.
I appreciate that questionbecause to me, that question,
because to me that's very muchhow I have evolved as a
professional, as a leader, as anentrepreneur and so on.
I think learning is constantand especially in this space,
(36:37):
especially in the cybersecurityspace, today, you miss a beat,
you're behind by years and it'svery hard to catch up.
My approach has always been toreally kind of put myself a
little bit in an uncomfortablesituation, so it forces me to
constantly stay on top of it,and some examples of this would
be let's take a Gen, take AI,for example, and I was a few
months ago I think it was at aGoogle conference and it was the
(37:00):
theme of the conference.
And before I showed up thereand I had set up some meetings
with some analysts, someprospects and customers, and
before I showed up there, Iblocked off time and said I need
to get up to speed with what'sgoing on.
What's Google talking abouthere?
You know what is the A2A, youknow standard they just
(37:22):
published and things like that.
Because when I show up and Italk to people there.
I want to sound like I know atleast the ABCs of that, right?
So I kind of really forcemyself to be ready for these
conversations and it's becomesort of natural, Doesn't make me
almost like, doesn't make meuncomfortable anymore.
(37:47):
But the initial learning curvealways is a bit uncomfortable,
right, you're trying to wrapyour head around some
terminology, some concepts thatyou've not heard before.
Or you know, sometimes you'veheard the terminology but like,
let's take that anthropics, mcp,like model context, protocol,
and like wow, I understand thewords but I don't know what the
hell this means together, right,things like that really kind of
pushes you to try to reallyunderstand what is going on.
(38:07):
How are the people who areintroducing these technologies
and these concepts?
How do they think?
Who are they, what roles theyhave in these companies?
So that's how I kind of reallytry to keep myself in the loop
and up to speed on the differenttechnologies.
The conversations are soimportant.
Also, when you have a goodconversation with someone who
(38:27):
also understands the space andthey're much deeper than you are
in the space, very quicklearning there as well.
Hopefully that answers thequestion.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
I really relate to you when yousaid, you know, going into an
uncomfortable situation, right,because that forces you to
either sink or swim, and I thinkeveryone would rather swim
rather than sink, right, thatwould not be fun and I relate to
(38:56):
it myself.
You know, I'm sure my audienceis so tired of me, you know,
talking about my PhD, right, butpart of the reason why I went
down the journey of, you know,doing my PhD was because I was I
realized that I was getting toocomfortable, even with the
difficult stuff that I was doing, and I needed to push myself
(39:16):
right.
And I couldn't have done it,maybe at a worse time in my life
.
I'm still going through itright now.
But I mean having two kidsduring your phd, you know, I got
a two-year-old and afour-month-old and it's like,
it's insane, what, like?
What if I could go back andjust smack the younger joe, you
know, in the face and be likewhat are you thinking about?
Like, no, you're an idiot.
(39:37):
Stop, stop doing it.
Like I would, you know, becausethat, because that is so stupid
.
But you know, again, there'ssome value when something is so
difficult and there's so muchpressure, right that you, you
just you have to come out on top, and I find myself, you know,
doing what you mentioned as well, right, when there's a meeting
coming up that you know, I knowI need to know these three
(40:01):
things, and I know one of them,or I know two of them, right,
well, the other one is okay.
Well, what did this person inthis call write about it
recently, you know?
Did they write anything aboutit?
Is there any papers out on itfrom their company or anything
like that?
Like I should be prepared,which is funny, because I'll do
that for my day job, but then Iwon't do it for the podcast and
(40:22):
all of these questions have beenunscripted.
So it's like it makes for aninteresting conversation, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, and kudos to you that doing a PhD with two
kids and a full-time job, thatis, I mean you really set the
bar so high for yourself thatyou know it really.
I think it's about, like, howyou manage your priorities and
how you keep yourselfdisciplined about your life,
your educational pursuits, yourprofession and everything right
(40:51):
yeah it's like it couldn't beany more difficult.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's probably 10 times more difficult than what I
expected going into it, andit's also because I'm I am
studying an area that I have noexperience with.
Right About two thirds of it.
I've never touched satellitesbefore.
I've never touched quantumencryption before.
You know, I know like the basefoundation of the research, but
(41:15):
it's like to put it on top of,you know, the already
extenuating circumstances isjust insane.
But it also makes me learnquicker too, right, because I
can't reread these papers 10times like I used to be able to
in my bachelor's or my master's.
I don't have the time.
I have a little kid that youknow I call a terrorist jokingly
(41:36):
, but she is a little terroristand if I let her run around the
house, you know unimpeded likeI'm going to come back and like
the couch is going to be on fireor something you know, like
that's how, that's just how sheis, so like I have to use my
time very efficiently, you know,and very effectively.
So I'm not revisiting thesethings.
I get it, I consume it, Iunderstand it and I'm moving
(41:57):
forward with the next, the nexttopic.
But you know it, and I'm movingforward with the next topic,
but I didn't mean to drone outthere a little bit too long at
the podcast.
Unfortunately, we're at the topof our time here.
I mean the conversation hasjust flown by.
I feel like I need another hourwith you.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Same here.
Yeah, it's been a great, greatconversation, great to hear a
little bit about you and yourlife, your professional and
personal life.
I think, yeah, this is rare,this format is rare, and I
appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well, Art.
I really appreciate you comingon.
And before I let you go, howabout you tell my audience where
they could find you if theywanted to connect with you and
where they could find Bridev ifthey wanted to learn more?
And, you know, maybe gettogether to learn more about the
solution.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, certainly.
So I am very active on LinkedIn.
It's really kind of my onlysocial network that I try to
keep up with and stay active on,so they can always find me on
LinkedIn.
My email Bridev email is art atBridevcom, brightofcom.
(43:02):
And just a couple words aboutbright of, and our mission today
is really to make sure we helpthe, the companies and the
leaders at these companiesmanage their, their move move to
an adoption of moderntechnologies, and ai is one of
the big ones.
It's very challenging.
They're not not all answers arealready known yet, but bright
of is a, is a company.
As a company and a team, we arealways there to be a partner.
(43:26):
Our technology was built in.
We have dozens of enterprise,very large organizations that
we've already partnered over thepast few years and helped them
accomplish these goals, whetherit was a cloud adoption, public
cloud, private cloud and todayAI, and that's what we bring to
our relationships.
Happy to hear from anyone whois currently trying to address
(43:48):
problems, whether it's the cloud, public cloud, multi-cloud AI,
energetic AI and identities oneverybody's mind at the moment.
Feel free to reach out.
We'd love to have a chat.
We'd love to even justbrainstorm if that helps.
We enjoyed the time today and,joe, great to be on the show and
be talking to you today.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it was a fantastic
conversation.
Well, you know everyone.
If you're looking to learn moreabout Bride Develop, put the
links down in the description ofthis episode.
And yeah, thanks for listeningeveryone.
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