100 | Healing Beyond Talk: Somatic Therapy with Amanda - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Welcome everyone to another episode of See You on
the Other Side.
I am so excited because we haveour first guest for season four.
Amanda.
How do you want me to addressyou?
Amanda Newton's good.
Amanda professional.
Okay.
Okay.
I'll keep my aliases aside.
The other thing I was going tosay is I feel like you have a

(00:54):
lot of training under your beltand experience under your belt.
Can you kind of introduceyourself and give the listeners
more info about your background?
Sure.
That's funny because I wouldprobably say the exact opposite.
Really?
I disagree.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12):
So my background is in psychology.
So I got a master's inpsychology.
And my intention was to donormal therapy work.
And I started working in psychhospitals.
And I realized people weren'tgetting better.
And that was really frustratingto me because human, I've loved

(01:33):
human behavior probably sincehigh school.
Like I I could have flunked outof high school, I think, because
I never went and I hated school.
And then I found psychology,read the textbook like from
front to back in a day.
And I was just so, I don't know,enamored.
And I remember the teacher saidsomething wrong and I was like,
that's incorrect.
He's like, do you want to standup and teach the class?

(01:53):
Like, absolutely.
And I did.
And so, like, I think that'sprobably where my love of
psychology started.
And I, but when I was workingand when I was working in psych
hospitals, I was getting reallyfrustrated because no one was
getting better.
And if we got people better, wegot them to baseline, which to
me isn't overly exciting.
Like, great, you're not hearingvoices now.

(02:14):
Or, you know, and so I gotfrustrating and then kind of
went into the business end ofthings and started doing
operations and marketing andbusiness development.
And I kind of worked in every, Imean, outpatient, inpatient,
community mental health.
I still did a little clinicalwork here and there, like doing
assessments.
And then I worked with a lot ofstartups helping them start, you

(02:37):
know, their hospitals or theirtreatment centers.
And then I went into consulting.
And I don't I don't know if youwant my whole story, but I'll
give you the whole thing.
I went into consulting and acompany hired me and I was a
partial owner of the company torun it and kind of redo it.

(02:57):
And in that time, I I started toget a lot of health conditions
that were coming up.
And I I didn't have time forthat because my entire life I
was working 60, 70 hours a week.
I have two kids.
And then I I got a heartcondition that came up.
And I was like, well, I can'tquite ignore this.

(03:19):
And so I went to thecardiologist and he's like,
well, you have to give up yourstress.
And I was like, my children?
And he's like, no, your job.
And I thought, I can't give upmy job because that's my whole
entire self-worth.
That's who I am.
I wrapped my whole life up intomy job.
And I thought, who am I if I'mnot my career?

(03:40):
Well, I found out reallyquickly, but I had the
opportunity to take off and kindof heal myself.
And I went the Eastern medicineroute, did all the herbs, the
acupuncture.
And this is where I foundsomatic work.
And I knew somatic work existed,but like in the behavioral
health world, it falls under ourumbrella, but I don't think a
lot of us know about it becausewe're so busy working on the

(04:02):
cognitive side of things, whichis now what I know what I know
is kind of ridiculous.
I mean, to spend 100% of ourtime, we do need to spend some
time there, but it doesn't needto be a hundred percent of our
time.
And when I found somatic work,it well, I did cure my heart
condition, which is good, but ohwow.
Yeah, I got to the next level,like baseline's here.

(04:24):
I got up here and I thought,wait a minute, is this how we're
supposed to feel?
And everyone that works in thepsych field knows we're missing
something.
They all know it because alltherapists have done their own
work and they realize somethingis missing from here.
And I figured it out.
It was the body.
We're doing all this work on themind and not integrating with
the body.

(04:45):
And so we're only doing 50% ofthe work when we do, you know,
kind of traditional talktherapy, which is good.
We need to do that 50%, but wealso need to add in the other
50%.
And so I was like, I need tofind out everything there is to
know about this.
So I read every single book andI would not, those books are
terrible.
It's like going to medicalschool to learn about polybagel

(05:05):
stuff.
And I did all the training.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonnastart working with folks.
And when I say I I don't havethe experience, what I mean is
my experience came from workingwith people.
And I had a kundaliniactivation, but that's a whole
nother conversation.

SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Are you serious?
Yes.
So can we talk on that on thatlater?
I do.

SPEAKER_04 (05:27):
But that's really what kind of catapulted me into
the smoke neck kind of workbecause I was able to feel
energy where before I wasn'table to feel energy.
So that really did help in mywork.
But I had this wealth ofknowledge, obviously, of human
behavior.
And then I learned thesedifferent somatic practices and
kind of put all of my knowledgetogether in one.

(05:50):
And I was like, oh, these areall the things that work.
And it's kind of an iterationbecause then I see more people I
work with, the more I learn justabout, you know, the body plus
the brain and putting it alltogether.
And it's funny because half ofmy clients are therapists, which
I love because they've realized,oh shit, you're right.

(06:12):
There is something missing inthe work that we're doing.
And when I get to work withtherapists, I'm giving
everything that I know to thembecause I want them to be able
to give it to their clients.
So then everybody can start toget like, you know, a hundred
percent better instead of 50%better.

SPEAKER_02 (06:28):
So to those who don't know like what somatic
work is, can you kind of givelike a brief explanation, like a
simple explanation of what thatis?
Sure.

SPEAKER_04 (06:39):
It's soma and somatic means body.
So essentially it just meansbody work.
And there's uh a coupledifferent ways to go about this.
And mine is really getting intoyour body in the present moment
in a parasympathetic state, isreally what I'm after.

(07:00):
And so part of somatic work isnervous system regulation, and
that's usually where I startwith people because most adults
I see walking around havedysregulated nervous systems,
except for maybe some Buddhistmonks.
And the reason we're sodysregulated is usually from our
trauma responses and/or just howwe do everyday life.

(07:20):
I mean, the way that we're doinglife is not how we should be
doing life.
We should not be like waking upwith the alarm clock and getting
all these text messages andemails and running and getting
kids and I mean, we should bewaking up with an alarm clock,
going outside, you know, withour shoes off, picking some
berries, maybe feeding thechickens, not moving like
really, really quick.
My dream life.

SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
That's like my five-year plan.
But also like that's unrealisticfor a lot of people.
Yeah.
Because, you know, life is very,very busy and with kids.
And if you're, you know, a momand you work and that feels like
an impossible, it feels like adream, not a possibility.
You're right.

(08:01):
It does.

SPEAKER_04 (08:02):
And when I think about somatic work, like versus
traditional talk therapy, talktherapy is giving us coping
skills and teaching us maybe whywe think the way we do, why
other people think the way theydo, whereas somatic work builds

(09:18):
the capacity in your body todeal with the triggers at a, you
know, a kind of at a physicallevel.
And so, and Christine, you'reabsolutely right.
I try to teach people like basiclittle things to put into their
day in order to be able toregulate their nervous system.
Cause you're right, we can'tjust blow up everything.

(09:39):
I mean, I did, but we can't justblow up everything.
I thought I did too.
I'm not doing this anymore, andI'm gonna go live the simple
life.

SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah, I think it's like we had a guest on several
years ago who was like, You'renot broken, our culture is.
And I feel like that's like sucha we have to learn how to live
in our bodies in a world that'sdesigned to keep us out of our
bodies.
So I think that that'simportant.

(10:07):
When you were talking about likereading all the books, The Body
Keeps the Score.
I know that like everybody talksabout that book, but I I was
like, oh my God, it was likesuch a heavy read.
Like I felt like I was doinghomework, I couldn't like stay
focused.
I was like, this is like a bigperson book.
Like I'm not adult enough toread this and understand it.

(10:27):
I get the concept of it.
Like our body is holding on tothis stuff.
So, like another book that comesto mind is like Walking the
Tiger, where like this conceptof all these animals having this
body movement that they have,this this not a tradition.
It's not a tradition.

SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
It's like a I was literally talking to my son
about this yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 (10:49):
Like getting energy out.
I can't remember what theconcept is, but like if
something traumatic happens toan animal, they usually have
this thing that they doafterwards to release their body
of all the trauma that it'sholding on to.
And we don't do anything likethat.
Like we're not taught to dothat.
We don't know what to do to howlike how to move stuff out of

(11:11):
our body.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (11:13):
We're we're removing the negative imprint.
And I actually not all myclients do because I make them
do it in the session.
It's we get up and we startshaking because it's and it's
not just animals, we do it too.
So like if you working in psychhospitals, I've witnessed lots
of fights.
But if you're witnessing aphysical fight, people shake

(11:35):
when they get done.
And the reason is theadrenaline's leaving the body,
the cortisol's leaving the body,but our body also knows that we
have to remove that negativeimprint.
So we know to do it physically,but we forget to do it when it's
a negative emotion or trauma.
But you know what's reallyinteresting is I was reading
this study, and I can't rememberif it was mice or rats, we'll

(11:55):
call it rats, but they had, theyhad all these rats, and the
researchers were activating therats.
And what they would domid-cycle, mid-shake, the the
researchers would stop theshake.
And I think the vast majority ofthose rats that they stopped the
shake, they either dad or hadsome medical problems.
And we're the same thing.

(12:17):
We are animals, we are mammals,right?
So and then when I I have acouple of physicians in my
practice, and I'll talk to myphysicians about this.
I'm like, okay, we know thatstress in the body causes all of
our diseases and disorders,right?
And so what is stress in thebody?
It is unprocessed emotion.

(12:39):
And so, like, what if we juststarted processing emotions?
Would we still have all thesediseases and disorders?
Probably not, which is kind ofwild if you think about it.
And so I'm like, tell thedoctors, you need to teach this
to all your patients.

SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
But isn't it kind of crazy though that doctors don't
teach that, especially in a lotof, you know, in Western
medicine, that's not somethingthat's often talked about.
And when you were talking aboutlike how you were working 60, 70
hours a week, plus you're a momof two, I I feel like it's it's
really hard to balance that.

(13:17):
And you were having heartissues, and I used to own a
business, and then I have had myson, and I was, you know, also
getting sick and getting hivesand getting like constant UTIs,
and then going to a doctor andjust getting a pill, and then
the UTI would go away and thenit'd come right back.
And it wasn't until I went to aholistic doctor, and he was

(13:39):
like, I think it's stress.
I think you've got a lot on yourplate, and I think there's you
need to take some things offyour plate.
And I'm like, I can't do that.
Cause like what you said, I waslike, this gym is this is like
my identity.
And if I don't have that, Idon't know who I am and I don't
know what I'm gonna do.
And it did get to a point whereI made the choice to close down,

(14:04):
but I'm like, I'm not a personanymore.
Like now I'm just a mom, Iguess.
And I don't know what I'm I feltlike I had no purpose and I felt
so lost.
And I feel like so many peoplerelate to that and they're
struggling and they're maybeshowing they have an autoimmune
disease or they're going throughhealth issues, but they're like,
I don't know what to do, I don'tknow what to let go of, I don't

(14:27):
know where to start, I don'tknow how to regulate myself.
Like, I don't even know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (14:32):
And you you bring up a good point because like, and I
like talking about like feminineenergy and masculine energy
because oh, I love that.
Yeah.
Okay.
We we have been sold a bill ofgoods, right?
I'm 46, I think.
And and I was always told, youknow, you you can do better than
it anything a boy can do, butbetter, which yes, I agree that.

(14:56):
But it was almost kind of likewe were taught to work like a
man.
And that's not that's not we arevery powerful, but we are not
powerful in the way that we'resupposed to be working like men.
And so these corporate jobs, andI'm not saying all corporate
jobs, I'm saying sometimes howwe approach these corporate jobs
are like where entrepreneurshipis just like go, go, go, crush
it.
I hate what people are like, gocrush it.

(15:17):
I'm like, oh my god, women, weshould not be grinding it out
and crushing it.

SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
It's supposed to be crushing.
I used to say shit like thatthough, all the time.

SPEAKER_04 (15:24):
Like girl boss, go.

SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
I know like don't work girl bossing.

SPEAKER_04 (15:28):
Yes.
Yes.
And so if we work like a man,we're gonna get burned out.
And so, yeah, I can I completelyunderstand that.
And and you're right.
If but the problem is if wedon't give up stress, if we
don't give up something, and ifwe keep on grinding it out, our
body will do something to say,no, you're not.

(15:53):
Because our body's this likeperfect antenna, and it's always
giving us signs and signals.
It's like a smoke alarm.
It's like, hey, hey, listen up.
That's the same thing withanxiety.
And what we do is like, let meignore this and just go to my
brain and see if my brain canfigure this out, which is the
wrong thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 (16:13):
Well, another thing that I really have an issue with
is like, you know, I see anxietyas like a signal now too.
And I used to struggle reallybad with it.
And I was medicated to turn itoff.
And at the time it made sense,but I looking back now, I was
like, my body was telling methat I was in an unhealthy
situation.

(16:34):
And I would just kept likeignoring it and like numbing it
away so I could function on aday-to-day basis.
But looking back now, I waslike, holy shit, like I should
have listened to what it wastelling.
But I wasn't taught that.
None of us, none of us weretaught that.
I think we know a lot of peoplewho are like on a journey to

(16:57):
find the right medicine, but butI'm not like giving away
information or anything, butlike we know these per people on
a personal level, and they're invery abusive toxic
relationships, and they're inlike a horrible work situation.
And it's like, I don't think itthe med like finding the right
medicine is necessarily theissue.
Like, I think you might need tolike look at what's happening in

(17:21):
your life, in your circle, andin your home, and that's where
the answer is.
But you're trying to turn thatoff.
Like your body's telling yousomething, it's screaming at
you, and you're trying to turnit off and look away.

SPEAKER_04 (17:38):
And that's what I'd tell my clients is like, I
always want to know ifsomebody's on medication because
I always have to set theexpectation.
Like, if you're on medication,this is gonna be hard.
Because and I and I don't wantto ever convince somebody don't
take medicine, because I thinkthat's a real personal choice.
I will give people, you know,suggestions that that's what

(17:58):
they're looking for.
But when you go to do somaticwork, if you because these
medicines often work almost toowell because they're gonna numb
you out.
And so if you're numb, you'renot gonna be able to connect
with the emotions that I'mtrying to get you to connect to.
So I'm like, not that it'simpossible.
I just tell people you're gonnahave to work much harder than

(18:20):
other people will.
And like you with anxiety,anxiety is not really the enemy.
Now, it might be kind of goingoff because if our subconscious
kind of records everythingthat's ever happened to us and
our bodies are always scanningfor danger, it might pick up
something that is not dangerous,like, you know, this moss wall
behind me.
If I'm sitting here and I say,my subconscious picks up this

(18:43):
moss wall.
Oh, remember when you were fiveyears old sitting next to the
same moss wall where you got bitby a dog?
And then my nervous system goes,yeah, let's go into fight or
flight.
We're in survival mode.
So all those things are kind of,you know, hanging out in the
background that we're unawareof.
And so sometimes it's justmisfires, right?

(19:04):
Yeah.
But our anxiety is still a cluethat something is going on, and
we really had to tune into it.
And the the you know, theantidote to anxiety is not
calmness, it's safety.
And we have to teach our bodysafety and what that feels like.
And a lot of times we kind ofplace safety on other people or

(19:24):
other circumstances instead oftrying to do it within.

SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
So let me ask you this.
What would be some I guess whowould be a good candidate for
somatic therapy?
That's a good question.
Everybody knows.
I'm like, is this a goodquestion?
I don't know.
Like maybe like if there arecertain things that are
happening or if there arecertain things that you're

(19:50):
struggling with and talktherapy, like, then is somatic
therapy like a potential.

SPEAKER_04 (19:56):
So the vast majority of people I see, so I have my
therapist over here that comein, they're like, okay, it
usually they want to make surethat they're doing it
themselves.
And of course, sometimes they goto teach their clients.
And I have a lot of firstresponders because they got lots
of trauma.
And what their bodies are doingis staying at like a survival
state and they don't know how toget back to parasympathetic.

(20:18):
Wow.
So I see some firefighters, somecops, see a lot of teachers
stressed.
Yeah.
And I see a lot of it's funnybecause when I started doing
this work, I just assumed Iwould see mostly women because
we know we're all about seekinghelp and you know getting better
and being a better person.

(20:39):
But I see a lot of men, becauseI think they're like, I don't
want to talk about this shitjust working out of my body,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
I was going to ask that.
I love that because I kind ofassumed you would have mostly
women because I feel like menare taught to suppress.
At least women do.
We do have, I think thestruggles are just different.
And but women will try to gosometimes I feel like are
oftentimes better about goingand maybe trying to find

(21:07):
something.
Or to talk to our friends.
Yes, or to talk to friends oryou know, to vent about it or
whatever, where I feel like menare really conditioned to
suppress and to to not share orto not admit that they need
help, or you know, so I actuallylove hearing that.

SPEAKER_04 (21:22):
I did I know, and I'm so happy because I feel like
uh men are starting to come moreand more because other men are
talking about it.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, I loveit.

SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
This is happening.

SPEAKER_04 (21:35):
This is what I think because I'm I'm like starting to
get worried about men and womenbecause women, so much of them
are, you know, de-centering men,which I think is a good thing.
Not like I want you out of mylife, but making them the most
important or whatever is intheir life.
But what I've noticed is youhave all these women evolving
spiritually, consciously, andthe men are like, there's a gap

(21:58):
in like all these women areleaving their husbands and their
relationships.
And I'm like, okay, men, we wegotta get this party started
because you're gonna get leftbehind.
If I mean, and I I see it intraditional therapy and you
know, spiritually and in thiswork, sometimes the gap becomes
too big where someone has grownway too much and they're no

(22:19):
longer on the same sheet ofmusic.
So it's it's happening.
I'm I'm seeing more men, but alot of times I see folks
probably I would say 75% of thepeople I see are neurodivergent
or uh intellectualizers.
So they've done all the therapyand sometimes they know way more

(22:42):
than the therapist.
And so they're like, they can'ttell me anything I don't already
know.
And and I get it becausediscovery is not actually
recovery.
So they might be really good andhave all the insight in the
world, but they might not beable to make that shift.
So that's why I tell people likethat's that's just really great

(23:03):
for people that you know wouldbe appropriate for somatic work.
I also think anytime you havesignificant trauma, sexual
trauma is really good forsomatic work.
I I just think if you have aninterest in growing, you
probably need traditional talktherapy and somatic work because
those are the two things thatwork so well together.

(23:23):
Just more men are are getting tothat point where I think they're
starting to realize that theyneed to also evolve because
they're getting left behindbecause women are just like, oh
wait, I don't need you anymore.
And the fact is we don'tactually need men anymore.

SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
It's interesting because we said this before, but
like we have a lot of women whoreach out to that to us
specifically about like whatwhen we talk about psychedelics,
and they're like, My husbandneeds to do this.
And I'm like, you need to dothis first.
Like, you go first, because thenyou can like hold his hand
through the process of healingand growing.

(24:01):
And and Christine and I haveeven talked about before, like
in our relationships, you know,our husbands are doing the work
and they have come such a longway.
And I am so grateful that I havesomeone who's like willing to do
that with me, but it does feellike I'm dragging him sometimes.
But I'm like, but at least he'scoming.

(24:22):
And I have said before he gotsober, I think I told you before
this, like he's sober now.
But like before he got sober,I'm like, dude, if you don't, if
you don't step up and change andgrow, I already know I'm so far
ahead of you in this department.
But if you don't step it up,we're gonna this this isn't
gonna work.
I need you to like meet me alittle bit of the way.

(24:45):
And he he did, he stepped it up.
But I saw this quote and I wantto say this because it reminds
me of what we're talking aboutliterally this morning.
I took a screenshot.
It says, if he stops growing,you'll start dying next to him.
And I was like, oh, I love thatbecause I think women need to be
the leaders in this.

(25:05):
So we are because we're thenurturers, like you're talking
about that feminine andmasculine energy earlier.
Like we're intuitive, like we'rethe natural healers, we're the
mothers, the nurturers.
So I think men need to feel safewith us in order to evolve and
grow and change.

(25:25):
And if we can show them thatlike we're safe for them to do
so, then they'll let their guarddown a little bit.
Then they'll, you know, see,okay, if they can do it, I can
do it.
I I just I'm not saying likewomen should lead everything,
but in this sit in thisdepartment, I think we need to
be leading uh the growth.

SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
Absolutely agree.
And and for for me, like after Idid my first psilocybin journey,
it took my husband a year to belike, okay, like I've seen how
much it's changed you and howmuch you've healed from a lot of
things that you struggled withfrom your childhood.
And I think I want to do thistoo.

(26:11):
But it took a year of me justshowing up differently,
responding to thingsdifferently, kind of modeling
things for him to be like, okay,wow, this is crazy.
I've just like watched youchange and evolve right in front
of my eyes, like in real time,every single day, like
consistently.
He's like, Show me the way.

(26:32):
And then he was open to it.
But at first he was like, Imean, I don't know.
Like, you're talking aboutmushrooms.
Uh you have trauma, not me.
I'm good.
And he kind of used to do that.
Like, my parents were to getlike, you know, my trauma is his
trauma was that he lost hisparents, but he was like, you
know, you grew up with abuse,you grew up with addiction.
I think you need to do this.
And he was right.

(26:54):
But then it got to a point whereI'm like, I mean, I think all of
us could use this.
So even the ones who don't thinkthat they have trauma.
That's right.

SPEAKER_04 (27:05):
Yeah.
And and I think that that'sgreat that both your all's
husbands were willing to goalong because I agree with you.
When I think of leadership,feminine and masculine energy,
we normally think of likemasculine energy is leading, but
this is more the spiritualhealing world.
And this is, I always say womenwere leading in the spiritual
world and men are leading in thephysical world.

(27:27):
I'm like, I might run out ofgas.
I need you to make sure my carhas gas.
Like me in the physical worldsometimes.
I love that.
I love yes.
God will heal your motherwounds.
Let's go.
Let me nurture you a little bit.
But they, you know what I when Iwork with men and I hear them,

(27:50):
and what they're saying is, Ihave never found a safe space to
communicate some of thisinformation to.
Because, you know, growing up,they're told, you're fine, get
up, there's nothing wrong withyou.
So it's not like most men arenot allowed to emote because
they're not going to bevalidated.
And if they do, you know, havesome sort of emotions, they're

(28:12):
going to be teased for it andriddled ridiculed for it.
So we haven't really set up thedynamic for men to be able to do
this kind of work.
And and so I think uh I'm hopingthat like more men that are kind
of coming to this work are like,oh, this is a safe place to do
this healing work.
I can do this.
And I I'm so glad that you'reall's husbands kind of came

(28:34):
along.
I actually I had a my psilocybinjourney, I don't know, it was a
few years ago, but then Idecided to leave my relationship
after that.
So I think people have to bereally prepared before they go
in because the you know, the wayyou see the world and your part
in it changes.
And I was like, oh, this iscomplete.
There's no more work I need todo here.

SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
So I think though that is what a lot of people are
scared about because I thinkthat they're miserable, they
they want help, they knowsomething's not right, they
don't feel right in their body.

SPEAKER_02 (29:11):
But I think there's an inner knowing.

SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
Yes.
And I always go back to whatHenry said about my husband,
because I was like, my this wasbefore he had done journeys
back.
Oh yeah.
My husband is worried that he'sgonna do a mushroom journey and
then he is going to like quithis job.
That's what my husband wasworried about.

(29:36):
And Henry was like, Sounds likeyour husband hates his job.
That's weird.
What did what did he do after hedid a journey?
He literally did a journey andquit his job.
He was like, holy shit, yeah.
I like But it's like it's inthere.
It's like so it's it, but butpeople are they're scared of it.

(29:58):
And I get it because like, thinkabout that.
It could be letting go of arelationship, letting go of a
job that you have like attachedyour identity to, letting go of
these patterns that made youfeel safe, just anything.
So what do you have to say topeople like that?
Because we get that a lot.

SPEAKER_04 (30:16):
Well, that's it.
You're right, because we createdall these kind of defense
mechanisms.
And and in my experience, I quitthe job, I quit the husband, I
quit my entire life.
I sold the Range Rose, sold theha the beach house, the lake
house, the everything.
I said, you know what?
My life is so much better if Iwas simplistic, because this is
what I was struggling with.
And just what you're saying, howdo we hold all these things up?

(30:37):
Well, what if I didn't?
What if I just let everythinggo?
Oh shit.
And I've never been happier inmy life because to I I didn't
grow up with Monagar pre lowermiddle class and I learned about
wealth.
But then what I didn't realizeis you have to hold all of it up
when you have money and allthese different things, and

(31:01):
that's so much stress and somuch pressure.
I'm like, what if I just livesimply?
If I have enough money forBotox, yeah, I'll be good.
And so, and now I live in aperfect house in St.
Matthews.
I work when I want to, I reallyenjoy the work that I do.
And I don't have to worry aboutholding all these things up.

(31:23):
And my my stress is minimal.
So now, if I would have toldmyself I was gonna do all this
before my journey, I'd be like,oh, hell are I doing that?
You're getting rid of all ofthat.

SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
No, it's like we do have to warn people like you
have to almost be ready to blowyour life up.
If that doesn't happen, that'sgreat.
But like you have to be willingto because that's the only way
you're ever gonna like actuallymake a change that you need.
And if you're not willing to letgo of any of that, then this

(31:58):
probably isn't the route foryou.

SPEAKER_04 (32:00):
Yeah, but I think too, with the medicine that
helps is as you know, thesehuman beings doing this earth
school, we have all thesedoubts, right?
And then when I think when youconnect with the medicine and
you connect with that sourceenergy, oneness, it's a knowing.
So you go from like questioningto a knowing.

(32:20):
And when you get to that part ofa knowing, you're like, I'm
good.
Yeah.
And I think that's what mostpeople are missing is that
knowing part.
So if you can access that withthe medicine, then you kind of
lose some of that worry.
Or when people come in withsomatic work, which they're
usually scared of, is like, I'vebuilt up all these defense
mechanisms to protect me.

(32:40):
And so don't be taking that awayfrom me.
Cause this, this is how I'mfunctioning.
And like, I'd promise you, oh,I'd get it too, because I was
the same right.
I was, you know, a dimissiveavoidant and like I didn't have
any feelings.
I was like a robot.
I was happy all the time.
So people are like, oh, that'sgreat.
No, it's not.
Like when you're notexperiencing all of life.

(33:01):
And then I thought, oh, if Istart taking this away, am I
gonna be okay?
And what I realized, like withsomatic work, you're like
putting down the the baggage,putting down the weights.
And so actually processing youremotions is way easier than
avoiding them.
So that's a little differentwith just somatics versus doing

(33:24):
somatic work and doingpsychedelic medicine.
I do think people have to be,like you said, ready for maybe
blowing everything up.

SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:34):
Well, now I kind of want to know when you got into
psychedelics and how that cantie into what you do in your
practice.

SPEAKER_04 (33:43):
So I I've had my own experiences with psilocybin, but
I've only done one journey.
I'm gonna probably do anotherone in my lifetime.
And I've had some experienceswith MDMA just because I was
like, I'm never gonna, I'm notgonna be able to talk to my
clients about this unless I havethe experience myself.
And I've read all the research.

(34:05):
So I I've been reading theresearch for the last five
years, and I actually, if you Istill do some consulting work
with companies.
And probably about a year or twoago, I was working with the
largest behavioral healthcompany, consulting with them,
and I was talking to their chiefmedical officer, and I was
talking about the next place togo.
I was like, we really need toget into psychedelics, and I
really need you to say that'sthe direction we're going.
And he's like, I'm all on board.

(34:26):
And they had a lot ofconnections with the VA, and
they were doing a lot of workwith the VAs, and the VAs had
these beta sites that are set upto do MDMA therapy with with
trauma, right?
And so what they're finding, Ithink in the that latest study,
I can't remember, 75 or 77% ofone treatment, people did not
have the criteria to have PTSDanymore.

(34:48):
Which we don't have anythinglike that.
And so I was telling them, I waslike, if you're working with,
you know, this closely with theVA, we need to start maybe doing
putting, maybe creating betasites, you know, for private
mental health.
And it's like you really need tobe the first person to come out
and say this because if thelargest behavioral health

(35:10):
company is saying, yes, we're onboard with this, let's see where
it goes, and other people aregonna start following along.
He ended up leaving the companyso that didn't all work out.
A whole ghost wrote a wholearticle about it.
And I was so excited.
I was like, dang it.
But he's he's a mover and ashaker.
I'm sure he's doing something insome other realm.
But I remember being on thephone with the folks that were

(35:30):
working closely with the VA, andshe goes, Well, wait a minute.
If they only have one treatment,then will they not need, you
know, traditional kind ofinpatient or outpatient therapy?
I was like, no, that's thebeauty of this because the
medicine doesn't cure it.
You have to kind of do the workaround it.
Now, will they needpharmaceuticals?

(35:51):
Probably not.
That's not our problem.
Right.
So, and I was like, but we haveto beware because you know, I'm
sure the pharmaceuticalcompanies aren't gonna like this
and they're gonna try to useeverything for them not to.
And I I did some lobbying myselfin previous jobs, so I know how
the sausage is made.
So I do worry about that, and Ithink that's probably why, you

(36:15):
know, that because the, youknow, MDMA was gonna get passed,
I think, last year and it gotblocked by the FDA.
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
So all I'm doing just makes you wonder, like,
hmm, maybe because there's notas much money in this type of
treatment because it works sowell.

SPEAKER_04 (36:33):
Well, I don't even not just that it's not enough
money, it's that if we curepeople, that's a problem for
every industry.
Because if you look at, I mean,I've even worked on the employer
side of things, the employerspend, the biggest spend is
mental health.
And so if we get people better,mental health from a mental

(36:55):
health perspective or anaddiction perspective, that
affects all of healthcare, notjust mental health and
addiction.
So it it's a real problem tocure people.
And I mean, we see it intraditional kind of healthcare.
But what I know is I'm alwaysgonna be on the right side of
history.
And so I'm gonna becommunicating information about

(37:16):
research and with the clientsthat I work with, I always ask
them about their experience, ifthey've ever had any experience
with psychedelic medicine or howmuch they know.
And as we kind of work together,and I say, you know, sometimes
give them more information aboutpsychedelic medicine.
And if they ask me, I'm happy tohelp do integration work with

(37:37):
them.
It's not something I don'tprovide the psychedelic
medicine, but I'm happy to dolike pre-work or work during
with the medicine or, you know,post-work with some of the
medicine.
Because I think, as you allknow, if you've had the
medicine, it's like you can havethis moment of being one with

(37:58):
the universe and knowing exactlywhat you need to do.
But if you don't kind of keepintegrating that information, it
it doesn't really stick.
And we see that in the researchtoo.
You kind of have to, well, usethe medicine and then integrate
it.
And there's a couple differentways, you know, people decide to
integrate that information.
I like integrating with natureand somatic work.

SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
Oh, I love that.
So can you give the listeners?
We have we have talked about ourpersonal experiences with MDMA,
but can you give the listenersmaybe what your definition of
MDMA is?
And then also I want to addanother question onto that.
I was talking to someone aboutMDMA just a few weeks ago, and I

(38:41):
didn't even fight it.
Just I just kept my mouth quiet,but she brought up, she was
like, Oh yeah, that's like sobad for your brain.
So can you can you give what youwould say back to that?

SPEAKER_04 (38:54):
Well, I would agree with her if you're doing a lot.
So, like when people talk aboutMDMA, I only know it in the
therapeutic sense.
I've never used it to go partywith.
I'm like, I don't even know howpeople do that.
Clearly, there's other stuffmixed in with MDMA if people are
going to party on it.
And I mean, it can fry out yourserotonin if you're using too

(39:15):
much.
So there's definitely some somerisks with it.
But clinically, when people takea dose of it, it's usually a
much smaller dose thansomebody's gonna go out and
party with, and it's not clearlymixed with anything else.
So, but I mean, even if peopleare gonna do NDMA therapy,
really they suggest not doing itmore than once a month.

(39:38):
And it's not really necessarybecause once you really how I've
worked with it is to rework likea trauma, similar to what people
do in EMDR, but using like aspecific trauma.
Because really what I'm tryingto do is rework the trauma, feel
the emotions that you werefeeling when the trauma
happened, and then replace themwith the good emotions, like the

(40:02):
the peaceful emotions orwhatever.
And that's biochemicallyhappening when you take the
medicine, right?
So when you go to getre-triggered, the physiological
response won't come up.
It'll almost connect.
It's like what fires together,wires together, right?
So if you go and do, if yourework a trauma and then you get
re-triggered, that physiologicalresponse shouldn't come back.

(40:23):
And I I I'm a testament of this,which is this is a crazy story.
I I feel like this would onlyhappen to me.
But I had I had a a a policeofficer that was my client, and
he was telling a story aboutthis perpetrator in this past
event.
It was my perpetrator he wastalking about.

(40:44):
Of course, he didn't know.
And I'm in the middle ofsession.
I know, and I was like, wait aminute, and I can't tell him
what's happening because he's myclient.
And I'm just sitting there, I'mlike, okay.
And then I I took a moment, Iwas like, wait a minute, wait a
minute, I'm not even triggered.

(41:04):
Like, oh and I it was like, ohshit, this did work.
Wait a minute.
Because normally I would getthis entire kind of
physiological thing that wouldhappen in my body where my heart
would start beating fast and Iwould start sweating and I would
start to feel unsafe.
And like, and I was like, Oh,I'm good.

(41:27):
I mean, now granted, it was anawkward situation.
Right, that's crazy.
Yes, yes.
So, but as far as clients go,I've I've they get the medicine
themselves, and there's kind ofdifferent ways that we've done
it.
Like I've I've worked with aclient that had a mother wound.

(41:51):
And what we'll do is we'll goback to the trauma.
And sometimes we bump up againstthe trauma, we don't all all the
way go in, but it's much easierto go into the trauma when you
have MDMA because sometimes I'mnot in the business of
re-traumatizing people, but withthe medicine, it's easier to do
because they're not gonna gointo that state.

(42:11):
Or sometimes, if I, you know,clearly I know the person well
enough, I might just bump tothat trauma.
And what I'll do is bring theirolder self to the trauma and
have their older self, you know,tell their the younger self what
they needed to hear in thatmoment and maybe communicate
what the adult version needed tocommunicate to the parent.

(42:35):
And that's how I kind of workwith the trauma.
But the medicine is superpowerful.
So, like if I do work withoutthe medicine, it's just not it's
just not as intense and doesn'twork as well.
It still works, but not to thelevel the medicine's gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 (42:51):
And how would you define it?
How like if somebody asked youwhat's MDMA, what would you say?
I would say that's a goodquestion.

SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
I don't know if anyone maybe not like the
clinical definition of it, butlike maybe like how what it what
it could do for somebody, likewhat why somebody would do that.

SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
But also I I think too, people don't know what MDMA
is.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like people Yeah, it's it's hardto explain.

SPEAKER_04 (43:24):
Well it is, but I tell people, I mean, it's gonna
raise your, you know, serotoninand your dopamine and your
oxytocin.
And I I worked with it the otherday.
I worked with a client.
She has had probably some of themost significant trauma I've
ever heard of.

(43:45):
And she has never been in herbody before.
Like sh she did, she doesn'tknow when to eat, she doesn't
know when to drink.
That's how separated she is fromher body.
And I told her, it's like, youknow, with the medicine, you're
gonna feel fully in your body.
And so when I was working withher, I almost witnessed her as
an eight-year-old.

(44:05):
And it was the sweetest thingbecause she's usually like
trying to keep everythingtogether.
And she she looked beautiful,she looked like an
eight-year-old, she lookedvulnerable, and it was the most
amazing thing to witness.
She goes, Is this what peoplefeel?
Like all of the time.
I was like, Well, not at thislevel.
I said, But it is giving you ataste.
If you've never been in yourbody before or you can't

(44:27):
remember what it feels likeafter the trauma to fully be in
your body, that's what MDMA isgonna do for you.
And it's gonna, when I think ofMDMA, it's letting the ego go so
you can be vulnerable andconnect it.
And I do like, you know, whenpeople do MDMA, you know, with
their partner, especially when Ithink about like couples that

(44:47):
are really having a hard timelearning how to reconnect, MDMA
will do it automatically.
It's just like everything likewill go out the window as far as
your ego to be able to bringthat connection back.
And it's it's it's incrediblybeautiful.
I mean, most of the folks thatI've worked with when they
decided to take MDMA have hadtrauma.
I did work with one person thatread the research about autism.

(45:10):
And I haven't been on that sideof the research much, but he had
read that, you know, withautism, a lot of times they're
seeing and feeling so much atonce that it's almost like they
can't hone in on certain things.
So a lot of times, I think earlyon in autism, we thought that,
oh, these people are justtotally disconnected, which

(45:33):
we're finding that's not thetruth.
They have way more connectionthan everybody else.
But sometimes they're not ableto hone in on it.
And so, like, he took themedicine in order to experience
kind of more that the oxytocinand the feeling that he's
supposed to feel instead ofbecause it's almost like he's
disconnecting himself.
And this is like what it waslike a almost a reconnection.
So that was a that was a prettycool experience.

(45:55):
And I just did energy work withhim while he was doing the
medicine.

SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
Say, like that to me is like I've witnessed that in
my husband since he starteddoing some of the psychedelics
that I do.
Like he's on the spectrum aswell as my 17-year-old.
His ability to connect andempathize is crazy compared to

(46:19):
before.
Like I I've always said this,and I know we've already done an
episode on it, so I don't wantto go too deep into it, but like
I've always said like mushroomssave my life, but MDMA saved my
marriage.
Because the first time we didit, like we were like, oh my
God, this like I'm rememberingwhy I love you.
Like all that shit that likebuilt up, like the resentment,
like has been like we can pushthat aside for a second and

(46:45):
focus on this connecting.
But I love what you said earlierabout like helping people get in
their bodies because I would sayit helps get us completely out
of our heads and not just in ourbodies, but into our hearts so
we can have conversations.

(47:05):
I have a friend who's like beengoing through a really nasty
separation for several years.
They're not quite divorced yet,but they're they're they're
going there.
And I've even said, like, I feellike you all would benefit not
to like get closer or to mendthe relationship, but I feel
like if you all just like didsome MDMA and sat down together

(47:28):
and had a conversation, like youcould walk away from this
marriage with the with like itwouldn't be like such a bad
thing anymore.
You could see where the otherperson is coming from, you could
have deeper conversations andwalk away knowing that you did
the best you could and knowingthat they're still love there.
I don't know.
Just a thought.

SPEAKER_04 (47:49):
Yeah, I had a couple that was working with it, but he
was he had narcissisticpersonality disorder.
Oh gosh.
And why I think this is reallyinteresting is because they
needed to reconnect.
They've been together for like Ithink 20 years or whatever.
So I didn't have any part inthis.
This was just my client that umdecided to do the medicine with

(48:09):
her and her husband.
And he was so resistant to themedicine because he realized he
was gonna have to drop his egoand maybe truth would come out.
So he blocked that entireexperience.
I didn't even know that waspossible.
I didn't either, and I was like,whoa.

SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Oh my god.
Okay, so can I ask a question?
This wasn't even on my bingocard of a list of questions, but
you often you said it, so I'mgonna ask it.
We because we haven't talkedabout narcissistic personality
disorder with anybody much onhere, anyways.
Something I've I've wanted totalk more about.

(48:53):
Can psychedelics work onsomebody who has narcissistic
personality disorder?
Obviously, with that situation,he resisted, that didn't work,
but I think a lot of people canrelate to having somebody who
has NPD or they have a lot ofthe patterns, same patterns or
characteristics.

(49:14):
And I feel like a lot of peoplehave someone in their life or
you know, whatever.
So what is your I guess?

SPEAKER_04 (49:22):
I started to read things about like so that kind
of the MDMA thing was like, oh,that yeah, I've never heard
that.
Yeah.
But with mushrooms and likejourney work, I think there's a
possibility.
And normally I wouldn't say thatthere is.
Like we know our tr none of ourmedicines cure personality

(49:46):
disorders.
There's I mean, people saythere's treatment for it, but
you don't think so.
I've never seen any improvementbecause it's not a it's not a
it's not a mental healthcondition, really.
It's not like something thatgoes into remission.
It's it's a personality.
And so we know that ourpersonality is pretty set.

(50:07):
Now, what I do think withpersonality disorders is people
can decide to change theirbehaviors because it's not
working within the frameworkthat they need to work.
And they're like, okay, now arethey gonna change as a person?
No, but they can change theirbehavior in order for a certain
relationship maybe to work.

(50:27):
But when I think aboutpsychedelics, psychedelics to me
are so magical and next level.
Is there a possibility, in myopinion?
Maybe.
If there was gonna be a hope, itwould be that because I don't
know anything else.

SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
I feel like with anybody who has like a lot of
narcissistic traits or they haveNPD, they have such a fragile
ego.
And for me, specifically withlike when I've done psilocybin
journeys, any ego that I had, ittransformed it.
It didn't k to me, it didn'tkill it, it transmuted it.

(51:06):
So I see totally see what you'resaying.
Like it could transform intosomething else or make you
aware, or like you know, there'sbeen so many journeys where it's
like you know, hit me on thehead like, hey, you're
sabotaging your own life, okay?
Like I know shit happened to youwhen you were a kid, but right
now you are the problem, youknow?
And so like I guess that doesgive me a little hope, but also

(51:30):
how are most of those types ofpeople like, hey, I want to do
this because I'm wanting to workon myself?
Because that's like when I did aa journey, I was like, I I will
whatever it shows me, I'm justdon't want to feel like this
anymore.
So if there's something that Ineed to change, I'm willing to
do that, where I feel like thattype of personality disorder is

(51:54):
not because it's everybody elseor everything else.

SPEAKER_04 (51:57):
Yeah, the awareness isn't there.
So I I think I would be superimpressed if there was someone
with narcissistic personalitydisorder that had the awareness
that maybe it's me, maybethere's something I'm doing, and
I'm gonna go do this work.
Yeah, but I think that's part ofthe problem that they're not

(52:18):
willing because they don't havea problem.

SPEAKER_02 (52:20):
I feel like it would take everyone in their lives
either leaving them or pushingthem to do something in order
for them to do it.
They would never do it on theirown.

SPEAKER_00 (52:33):
And even then, like maybe even then it's like yeah,
with like addicts, it's likethey gotta hit their rock
bottom.
Sometimes, you know, everythingis.

SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
I think for somebody who probably is narcissistic or
has narcissistic personalitydisorder, like they are probably
never gonna hit a rock bottom.
I don't know.
That that's my I'm saying thatbecause like the the person in
my life who I would say ispretty diagnosable has had two

(53:08):
children not speak to her, onehasn't talked to her for 10
years, her own mother hasn'ttalked to her in 12 years, and
now her other son is not talkingto her, and it's like everybody
is like begging you to dosomething or to get help.
Everyone is, and you are like,I'm not the problem, not me.
It's it's me, I'm the problem.

(53:29):
My other sister-in-law is theproblem, you know, everybody's
the problem but her.
And so it's it's it's it'sfrustrating because it's like
everyone is trying to get you toget help.
We're not we're not like evenlike saying you're the bad guy,
but at this point, you're kindof the bad guy because you're
refusing to to see that like itmight be you.

(53:52):
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know if they'll everhave that awareness.
That's kind of what I feel like.
I'm like, if the people in yourlife that you love are are
walking away because they'vebeen begging you to get help and
you're not getting help, likethat to me is like, yeah, I
don't know if there's what moredo you need for a rock bottom?
Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (54:12):
Yeah, well, I mean it's certainly mechanism, and
that's how and then they wear itas a badge of honor sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 (54:21):
So do you work with narcissists or people who have
NPD?
Can I ask you why?

SPEAKER_04 (54:29):
Because I don't think I can help them.
Like I feel like I would besetting them up for failure.
I have trying to think, Iprobably had a client and I was
getting to the point where I wasgonna say, well, this isn't
helping because they would comeand complain about everything in

(54:51):
their life, but they were thecenter of it.
And when you kind of approachsomebody with narcissistic
personality disorder and givethem the mirror, oh, they don't
like that.
So they're usually gonnaself-select to go, or you're
gonna have them go.
And so that was the processbecause there's really no, and
normally I can see it comingfrom a mile away.

(55:14):
Nine times out of ten, I can seeit.
And it I just don't want to setpeople up for failure.
I don't want to villainizepeople that have personality
disorders because there's areason they have a personality
disorder, and it is a defensemechanism, but I don't think I
can be help much help for and tobe honest, I don't not just
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
I don't think I'm a help to mostpersonality disorders.

SPEAKER_02 (55:38):
So I never like thought about it like that.
It's not really like a mentalillness it that that you get,
like it's not anxiety ordepression that can like come
and go.

SPEAKER_04 (55:48):
It it really is like just well, what I always give
the example of we don't diagnosepeople like this anymore, but
like at the top line of adiagnosis, we would put all
their mental health disorders.
So this is your bipolar, yourschizophrenia, your anxiety,
your depression, like anythingthat can kind of get better or
get worse, right?
And then the second line is whatwe what remains stable over
time.

(56:09):
And the only two things that goon that line were mental
retardation and personalitydisorders.
So I always think of personalitydisorder is the same as mental
retardation.
They don't get better.
And that's why they went on thatline.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So when I see somebody, a lot oftimes I'll see clients that have

(56:29):
partners that have personalitydisorders and they're working
hard at it.
It's kind of like addiction.
Like I'm like, you're workingharder than the person with the
problem.
Yeah.
Like you can't fix it.
I was like, you have to eitherget to a point where you say,
Okay, I can't fix this person.
I have to accept.
I either get to a place ofacceptance and work on me, or

(56:52):
you gotta go.
There's really no two other waysabout it.

SPEAKER_00 (56:58):
Acceptance or leave.
Do you work with people whoacceptance or leave?

SPEAKER_02 (57:05):
That's that's hard.
That's hard for a lot of people.
That really is.

SPEAKER_03 (57:12):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (57:13):
I know.
I was like, did you hear whatshe just said?

SPEAKER_04 (57:17):
Even forget the the personality disorder really with
any of our partners.
We really have to accept themfor who they are and always tell
people, you know, when theyfirst when someone first starts
dating and they get some redflags, I'm like, okay, would you
be with them if it got 20% worsethan this?
They're like, oh no, this is badenough.

(57:39):
I'm like, okay, because it'sgonna get 40% worse, just so you
know.
Because we all have our problemsand we all have our baggage, and
we really have to look at ourpartner and say, okay, can I
accept this within you?
Right.
And and there's like there'sbaggage that I can accept, and
there's baggage I can't accept,and we have to really know that
about ourselves.
And that's that's why we dorelationships, right?

(58:01):
To learn and grow.

SPEAKER_00 (58:03):
Do you work with a lot of victims of NPD?

SPEAKER_02 (58:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (58:13):
Yeah.
Well, because it it's alwaysit's this repeating pattern,
right?
Because a lot of times when wethink about trauma, and always
say, you know, we end upmarrying one of our parents, the
one parent that we couldn't, youknow, get the love or how we
wanted it.
And I think people think, oh, wejust do that because that's what
we know.

(58:33):
And that's actually not true.
We do it because, you know, askids, we have no autonomy to
really do anything, fixanything.
And then as adults on asubconscious level, we have
autonomy.
So we're like, oh, let me, youknow, get into the same
situation so I can actually fixit this time.

(58:55):
Because I have power and I havecontrol and I have autonomy.
And that's why we kind of repeatthe pattern, because we're
trying to do it where weactually have some sort of
control power.
Well, we know it doesn't work,but we still learn a lot.
So what I meet is someone a lotof times that had the
narcissistic mother that now hasthe narcissistic wife.

(59:16):
And I'm like, okay.
And you know, it's like theuniverse will keep sending you
the same daggone lesson untilyou learn what it is that you
need to learn.

SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
You're exactly right.
And I would even go as far as tosay, for about 15 years, my
mother-in-law was one of my bestfriends because we were so much
alike.
Oh shit.
I, and you know this, like I'vestruggled with that because I
was also a victim of mycircumstances.
I was married to an alcoholic,so was she.

(59:46):
Like, I was like, I played thevictim.
I was the people pleaser.
And when I stopped doing that,and this again, this all ties
back to like my first journeyand like realizing like, hold
the fuck up.
I'm the problem.
I'm the problem.
Like when I stopped doing that,I was like, wait a minute, she's

(01:00:07):
also a victim.
And you know what I mean?
Like, it's like I that's areally hard thing to say out
loud, but I know I think that myhusband subconsciously like
married me for that same reason.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:21):
Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:23):
And you never said that out loud for me.
Because I don't think I've everlike hearing you say that and
knowing what I knew before,because like I said, like we
were so much alike.
Like she would call me thedaughter she wished she had, you
know.
I am like blown away right nowbecause I'm like, holy fuck, he
did marry his mom.
Yes.
Well that's a bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:47):
Like, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:50):
Look, even you know, it when I think about this, a
lot of times I'll get the thepeople that have suffered, you
know, the abuse, and I don'twant to ever blame a victim, but
I do want to have them recognizethat it's the same coin, just
opposite side of the coin.
And they're attracting you andyou're attracting them.

(01:01:13):
And so we have to be responsiblefor the frequency that we're
vibrating at.
And so when people do this work,either somatic work or just kind
of any kind of healing work, youvibrate at a different
frequency.
And the goal is to not attractthat type of person, right?
And it's great that you and yourhusband.
Have done a lot of healing worktogether because you're right.

(01:01:35):
The the people pleaser is alwaysgonna attract, you know, the the
addict personality, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:41):
That was like a really hard lesson, too, because
I'm like, I have accepted this.
Like I created this problem.
Like I played a role in it too.
Like that that was like a mindfuck in itself.
And so, yeah, knowing what Iwent through with after having
that realization, I can onlyimagine, like, let's say my

(01:02:04):
mother-in-law does psychedelicsone day and has that same
realization, she's gonna have areally hard time when she
realizes like she's the one whopushed everybody away, and she's
the one who created the lifethat she has.
Like, I can like I've gonethrough that process.
I know what that feels like, andit was a really hard thing to go

(01:02:28):
like you go through all thislike guilt and shame, and like
not that doesn't feel good.
No, it doesn't feel good.
I felt like an addict likegetting sober for the first
time.
Like Have you read All the Wayto the River yet?

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:42):
No, what's that?
You're gonna love this book.
So it's that author of Eat LovePray.
Eat Pray Love, Eat Pray, Love.
I actually about finished withthe book.
Let me see.
Elizabeth Gilbert.
Okay.
She really talks about this,like being like almost like a

(01:03:02):
love addict people pleaserherself.
And like at the end, she ends uplike marrying her best friend
who kind of goes back intoaddiction.
It's a it's a great, great,great story because she's such
an amazing wordsmith that you'llreally appreciate that book.
Okay.
Interesting.
Love that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:22):
Love that.
Okay.
What I do want to ask this.
So what is something that yousee show up in the body a lot
when you have clients come toyou with a lot of trauma?
Like, what are some of the waysthat it shows up without you
even like having to talk tothem?
Like, what do you seephysically?

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:43):
Well, so when because it normally when I work
with people, I kind of break itup in three different sections.
The first thing is I teach themthe nervous system regulation.
Because I really want to gettheir body, teach them how to
get into a parasympatheticstate, because that'll kind of
help our work.
And then then I teach them howto process an emotion in their

(01:04:04):
body instead of in their brain.
I always tell people the onlything we should be doing in our
brains is math.
Everything else should be doneat the level of the body.
And then yes.
Well, I can't even do math.
So the third me either.
I'm drunk.
The third thing is we work toget the trapped emotions and
stored or trapped emotions ortrapped trauma out of their

(01:04:27):
body.
And I do this in a coupledifferent ways, but the first
thing I do when we're doing thatkind of work is do I do Reiki.
So I'll do energy work.
And so this is where I'm kind ofscanning the body and picking
things up in the body.
Now, Reiki isn't somethingthat's, you know, woo-woo.
They're doing in hospitals now.
I'm like, finally, you're allcatching up that we're going to

(01:04:47):
do that.
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
Yes.
I know that they it wasn't MDAAnderson.
There's like some not C or side,I can't remember.
There was some big article thatcame out that they were giving
it as one of the treatmentoptions at like one of the post
world renowned hospitals.
Why I can't think of it off thetop of my head, but I think
Norton's actually used to do itin oncology.
I'm not sure if they still do.

(01:05:07):
I love that.
So, and it's nice too when Iwork with physicians and they're
like, I'm all about it.
Teach me all the things.
But part of it is I'm scanningthe body, and anybody can be
taught how to do Reiki.
I think people who areempathetic can pick up on energy
better.
I was not, I'm not an empath,but the kundalini activation did

(01:05:30):
allow me to kind of feel energy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:32):
I thought that too.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:33):
Yes.
And so it's you, it's almostlike you're being the conduit
for the energy to come and gothrough you.
And so when I'm scanningsomeone's body, whatever's
happening in their body mighthappen in my body for a split
second.
So I had to really payattention.
I'm like, is that my back painor is that their back pain?
So I have to get centered beforeI do anything.

(01:05:54):
So I realize what's going on inmy body before I start on
somebody else's body.
But what's interesting that Ipick up, and a lot of people, I
pick up a lot of like blocknessin the throat, which is a lot, a
lot of times where people aren'tspeaking their truth or they
haven't spoke their truth.
And what it feels like is justthat.
It feels like something is likestuck.

(01:06:15):
And but the thing, the trickypart is I don't know the
difference between what'semotional and what's physical.
I can I'm just picking upsomething.
So for instance, I was workingon this lady, and every time I
worked on her, she had blockedenergy in her throat.
And the practices, I mean, I wasworking to try to work that out,

(01:06:36):
you know, when I did Reiki, butI always tell her, I was like,
okay, you need to speak yourtruth.
You need to make sure you'restanding up, especially if it's
in a safe situation.
She was doing everything, doinganything, and it wasn't getting
it better.
And usually I see it get betterover time when I work with
somebody and it wasn't gettingbetter.
I was like, you need to go tothe doctor.
And she was like, okay, she hada mass on her thyroid that that
had to get surgically removed.

(01:06:57):
I was like, oh my God, I'm soglad we caught that.
Holy shit.
If you were picking that up,yeah.
Or like I had this one guy,like, there's I'm always
assuming it's emotional innature because I I guess I'm
not, I don't know, that's wheremy brain goes.
But this one guy that I wasworking on, I'm, I felt like
this, like this dense energy,almost like no, it was more like

(01:07:20):
a pressure.
That's what it is, pressure.
And I was like, what is going onin your pelvic area?
And he had his prostate wasenlarged and it was causing
pressure.
And so I was like, oh, okay.
And so every time we did energywork, I was trying to work on
his prostate area.
He went back to the doctor.
The doctor's like, it's shock.

(01:07:42):
What are you, what are youdoing?
And he was like, Do you thinkit's this?
I was like, Is are you doinganything else?
Oh my God.
So that kind of thing reallyalways shocks me because the
physical world is, oh, hang on.
The physical stuff isn'tsomething that is my background.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:59):
So I'm never really kind of expecting it.
Do you get a lot of clients whohave like a chronic condition or
autoimmune disease?
And with like somatic work,their symptoms tend to get
better.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:14):
That is my favorite thing because what I hated
working clinically in thehospitals and everything like
that is no one ever got likebetter.
There was no end.
Like I love putting furnituretogether because like, oh my
God, it's done.
Like with people, there is nodone, there's no fixed,

(01:08:34):
especially in mental health.
We don't get to check the box orlike traditional physical
issues.
You know, you broke leg, oh, youfixed it.
We don't, we don't get to dothat in the mental health world.
But somatic work, you do get todo that.
And that's what I I love.
And it is so, so incrediblebecause when people come with
autoimmune conditions and Iteach them how to put their body

(01:08:56):
into a parasympathetic state,that's the only time we can
actually heal.
And so they switch off, youknow, that response that's
triggering their symptoms.
So people go into remission.
So they get to go to theirdoctor and they're like, oh
yeah, my rheumatoid arthritis isin complete remission.
Well, that's what it does.
Or I had this one therapist whoshe had some issues with her

(01:09:21):
shoulder.
And she went to every doctor.
It'd been like two years,couldn't get anything fixed.
We did two things.
One, we saw what kind of trappedemotion she had, and it was love
unreceived.
And then we got her to talk toher body, and her body was
saying that she was holding upthe world's problems.
Duh, she's a therapist, right?

(01:09:42):
We worked that out of her, itwas gone.
And I'm just like, and thissounds like miracle stuff.
And to me, it is miracle stuffbecause I'm like, oh,
absolutely.
I've never got to witness peoplegetting better.
Like, so anytime people havetrapped emotions related to a
physical symptom, I'm like, ohyes, let's go.
Because if we can kind ofrelease it, then the problem

(01:10:04):
should, you know, in theory begone.
Like if there was this one studythey did, and I can't remember
if it was in The Body Keeps theScore.
No, it wasn't in that.
A book that I like better isWhen the Body Says No.
That's Gabramate.
That one's much better reading.
I only tell therapists andeducators to read when the, you
know, the first book, When theBody Keeps the Score, because

(01:10:25):
you're right, it's it's toomuch.
It's too dense.
Oh, yeah, it's it's too much.
But there was this one studythat they showed they were
trying to figure out what allcancers had in common.
And they could only find onething.
And what they found wasrepressed emotion.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:41):
Oh.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:42):
And the number one repressed emotion among all
cancers was anger.
So we know anger causes cancer.
And I'm like, why don't we justwork with the emotions of not
getting trapped?
And that's my goal, really, islet's let me teach you how to
not get emotions trapped in yourbody, and then let's work out
the ones that are stuck and seeif you feel better or feel

(01:11:04):
differently.
And it, I think that's why Ilove my job so much now because
I'm like, oh my God, I actuallysee people getting better when
before like working in kind ofthe systems, you don't you don't
really see a that has to be likeso satisfying to see change.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:19):
It is.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:20):
And and I I don't want obviously I don't want to
take a shit on the the placesthat like I I'd still do
consulting in the behavioralhealth world.
But when I've been in it solong, and it's really turned
some to something verydifferent, where a lot of these

(01:11:44):
companies are private equityowned, and so you're just trying
to make the money and you'retrying to keep people in the the
cycle.
And I don't know if that'shappening purposely.
I'd like to think that it's not,but just people aren't getting
better.
And so now the further that Ikind of move away from that, and
I see people that are like doinghave done the talk therapy, are

(01:12:04):
doing somatic work, haveincluded functional medicine and
psychedelic medicine, we areactually curing people.
And I've never I would never saythat before because the best we
can typically do is treatsymptoms.
And a lot of times with a lot ofthings that we're treating the
symptoms, we cause othersymptoms.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:25):
It's I just never thought after 27 years that we
could actually cure people fromthings.
It's wild to see.
Oh, you're healing people.
I know, I love it.
Exactly happening.
And I think the best part is I'mnot doing it.
They're doing it.
Like I'm giving you some tools,but they're they're the ones
doing it.
You're gonna heal yourself.

(01:12:45):
It's not gonna be a doctor, it'snot gonna be a therapist, it's
not gonna be any of that.
You you have the ability to healyourself.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:51):
And you're also giving them tools that they can
like use long after they've seenyou.
Like that's another thing Ilove.

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:58):
That's what I tell people.
Like, the hardest part of thiswork is remembering to use the
practices.
If you don't use the practices,it won't work.
And when I think about sinceI've been doing this, uh,
there's only two people I feellike I haven't been able to
help.
And one of it, I was seeing thisguy for oh, he was probably on
his fourth or fifth session, andI was like, wait a minute, I
said, do you feel like you canget better?

(01:13:19):
And he was like, No, absolutelynot.
I was like, Oh, well, we'redone.
I was like, Because I'm notgonna heal you.
I was like, people have toremember they are the placebo
effect.
We are the placebo effect.
And so if you don't believe youcan get better, you will not get
better.
So I'm like, I can't help you.
And no one else is gonna be ableto help you either.

(01:13:40):
And then the other one was adoctor that kind of wanted me to
do everything to her.
And I'm like, yeah, that's nothow this works.
You're gonna put some work intoit or you're not gonna get
better.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:51):
So you you brought up anger earlier, and I meant to
bring that, I meant to bringthat up when we were talking
about men, but then we, youknow, whatever.
But I feel like with men,they're taught to suppress, but
the one emotion that they canshow is anger.

(01:14:11):
It's also something that I verymuch so relate to.
I had a very angry father, andthen he was an absent father,
and then I grew up with a momwho I think I got her perception

(01:14:33):
about men and I didn't realizeit, and it was very negative,
and I felt like I was somebodywho was a woman who was very in
her masculine.
I've definitely worked on beingmore in my feminine and
softening up, but anger has beensomething that I've been more
comfortable showing as well.
Vulnerability that is much, muchharder.

(01:14:58):
What I guess I don't even knowif it's a question.
But I feel like what something Irealized is there was anger and
I was more comfortable showingit, but behind it was honestly
like a lot of grief and sadness.
Like so much grief, but angerfelt I felt more powerful and I

(01:15:19):
felt it felt I felt protected ifI was angry, if that makes
sense.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:23):
Yeah.
I I posted the other day thatanger is sadness is bodyguard.
I'd heard that somewhere.
I was like, that's perfect.
And vice versa, too, right?
So well, what I think aboutanger is I always tell people no
one's doing it correctly.
Like women, we're not allowed tobe angry, so we like push it

(01:15:44):
down.
And men, they it's like they'retrying to give it away.
They're like, take this.
And so it's like none of us areprocessing it correctly.
And anger is not a bad thing.
Anger is actually a really goodthing because a lot of times it
it's what I consider a secondaryemotion, right?
A lot of when I'm working withpeople, I'm like, what's that
emotion?
They're like, is it anger?

(01:16:05):
That's probably that's probablywhat happened after you were
hurt or after whatever.
But we shouldn't look at angeras something that's bad, it just
needs to be expressed andprocessed correctly.
But I do think you're right.
We do kind of hide behind itbecause it's like it's this is
my power.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:24):
But yeah, anger is anger's a tricky thing.
What is maybe a somatic practicewhen someone is feeling really
angry and it they want to do itin a productive way?
What is a suggestion that youwould offer?

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:42):
My favorite anger practice, and I tell people you
don't have to do it when you'reangry, but it's gonna feel good
when you do it when you'reangry.
But we probably all have somestored anger in there so you
can't get it out.
So I'm gonna show you what itlooks like.
It looks quite ridiculous.
So I tell people like, it'sfunny because I'll I'll go and
train companies on nervoussystem regulation.
I'll train them on how to dothis so they won't get burned

(01:17:02):
out and leave their jobs.
But I was like, if you do this,don't do it around other people.
So I'm like crazy.
So what we're trying to do isreally move the anger out of our
body so it doesn't kind of getstuck in our body.
And so what I tell people to dois like sit up in a chair and
like pretend like you're holdinga like a weighted ball, you

(01:17:25):
know, the ones that you have inthe gym, and you want it to be
like really heavy, so likeyou're pushing it out.
And that's really what we'retrying to do.
You're trying to get it fromyour body to go out.
So it's really heavy, but you'regonna grunt how you do this.
So it looks like this.
Like that.
And like really, like reallyheavy.
So it's like you're pushingsomething.

(01:17:45):
And so I tell people to do likefour or five rounds of it.
Okay and then sit there and belike, is it does it feel better?
Because really, the reason thatyou're angry, that's the story,
right?
Now, but if you process it inyour body to process an emotion
takes about 90 seconds, and soyou can do anything for 90
seconds, right?

(01:18:06):
Oh wow.
There's a couple different waysto do this, but that's like my
favorite anger practice.
And what happens is if you canprocess something in your body,
you don't go to your brainbecause it's like all our body's
trying to do is feel safe.
We did the day thing, or likecomplete the entire stress
response.

(01:18:26):
And so that's kind of what yourbody's doing.
And so it's like, oh, okay.
Now the story might still bethere, but it might not have the
angst around it, or like, I'mgonna fight you right now, kind
of deal.

unknown (01:18:39):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:40):
Yeah.
I was telling like my daughter,I gave her like a pillow that
she like screams into when she'sangry because she went through a
phase where she would like breakthings.
And I I know that phase.
Like I went through that as anadult.
So I get that, but I'm like, wegotta teach you how to get this
anger out.
Like, I don't want you to feellike you can't be angry, but

(01:19:02):
like we gotta figure out a wayto do it where you're not
breaking things or hurtingpeople because that's never
happened.
So yeah, she screams into apillow in her room.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:13):
Yeah, tell her to move something because it's like
you can really like that.
Yeah, I want to teach her that.
I want this is for us too, justso you know like this is also
for us.

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:23):
Yeah, I always tell people anytime I work with
adults, I'm like, no, go homeand teach your kids this because
nobody's gonna teach them this.
And if we can teach kidsemotional regulation and nervous
system regulation, I don't knowif there's a better thing that
we can't teach them in lifebecause they're gonna they're
gonna feel better inside theirbody, they're gonna feel better.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:44):
And they're not learning this shit in school, so
it's kind of our job to teachthem all this.
Although I'm teaching my kidsstuff I didn't learn till I was
in my late 30s, so I feel likethat's like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (01:19:54):
That's right.
Well, I'm I had to, you know,they have read with your kid or
whatever in school.
And I went and brought a bookand I got to the teacher.
I was like, hey, I brought thisbook, but I really don't want to
do this.
I want to teach the kids, youknow, some somatic work and some
meditation and stuff.
And can I do that instead?
And she's like, Yeah.
Because I thought I'm gonnateach these kids.
I'm gonna teach them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:15):
I love that.
So somebody who's scared to justfeel anything, what what would
you say would be one simple stepin like the right direction?
Who to feel anything?
Because I think a lot of us areit we've become conditioned to
be scared to feel.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:34):
Well, I think And we just do.

SPEAKER_04 (01:20:36):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like we have thesechopped-off bodies where we just
walk around with this head andthis brain and let me think
about it.
And if anybody is any ifanybody's had anxiety, they know
that their brain is usually nottheir friend.
So, what I tell people to do issomething that we call
interoception.

(01:20:57):
It's a perception internally.
And so it's really sitting in asensation.
And you can practice even happysensations or angry or sad.
I tell people to close theireyes because it's easier to do
with your eyes closed.
Like if you're angry withsomebody or frustrated or
whatever, unless you're droughtor something, don't do that.

(01:21:18):
Just close your eyes and payattention to where you feel that
in your body.
There's some emotions that areeasier to feel in your body than
others.
Like, vulnerability is a goodone.
I had vulnerability stuck in myhand and I didn't know what it
was for like two weeks.
I'm like, what is this?
What is this?
What it took me that long tofigure out what this was.
So, because it kept on comingup, and I was like, in certain

(01:21:39):
like difficult conversations,and I was like, is this sadness?
Is this loneliness?
Is this what I figured found thefairy is a vulnerability?
But I do when I say sit in thesensation.
So if you get excited aboutsomething, what does that feel
like in your body?
And try to sit in it as long asyou can.
So, like when I get excitedabout something, I feel it's
like my heart has like thislight coming out of it.

(01:22:02):
And so I just try to sit in thatsensation.
Or when I when something is a noin my body, it's in my gut and I
can feel it.
Now, this doesn't work if peopledisassociate.
So I am a fellow disassociator.
So when I first started doingthis work, a masomatic therapist
was like, Where do you feel thatin your body?

(01:22:23):
I was like, what the fuck areyou talking about?
Right?
I had no idea because I was socut off from my body.
And so when I have people likethat that can't pick up a
sensation in their body, I'dtell people when they're first
starting to do this, pick up,try to pick up the easier ones.
Like when you're stressed, youmight feel like teness in your

(01:22:44):
neck and just sit in thatteness.
Because what we try to do isavoid it, right?
Like, oh, I'm so stressed.
Let me think about how I can getout of this.
But your body is just trying tosay, hey, pay attention to me.
And so if you acknowledge yourbody and say, oh, okay, neck, I
see it's kind of tensing uphere.
You want to narrate almostwhat's going on physically
instead of narrating things inyour brain of what's going on.

(01:23:05):
Like, okay, my neck is tense.
Okay, now it's almost almostmoving down to my shoulders.
My shoulders feel like they'removing up to my ears.
That's kind of what you want todo.
That's the interoception part.
But if you don't, if youdisassociate, meaning, like a
lot of times with people withtrauma, they cut kind of go into
this place of void when there'sdifficult times or just people

(01:23:26):
not being in their body.
You actually have to start withphysical symptoms.
So, like hunger, having to pee,having to poop, thirst, and have
them sit in that feeling.
So, like if you're hungry, okay,what does that sensation feel
like?
It feels like, I don't know,like things popping in my
stomach and try to sit in thatsensation.
What that does is it builds apathway, almost a trust back

(01:23:51):
into your body.
And that will build the pathwayfor the emotions to come up,
which I didn't really believe.
I was like, oh, is that reallyhappening?
Yep.
Then you'll start to feelemotions in your body.
And you should actually feelemotions in your body before
they hit your brain.
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:07):
I know that takes a while to notice, but
interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:11):
Uh, probably a lot of practice too.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:13):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:15):
Hey, you got anything, Leah?
No, I wanted to touch on thekundalini, but I know we don't
have time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:20):
That next time or in person would be like, no, we're
already at an hour.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:24):
I know, like talk later in person.
But here's my last question, andit's like a fun one.
Do you watch Love is Blind?
No.
Damn it.
Okay.
Then never mind on thatquestion.
So this is still another funone.
To close out, if you could havethe answer to any question in
the world, what would you ask?
If you could know the answerinstantly.

(01:24:47):
Like personally or like a worldquestion?
Either.
Any anything.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:52):
What is the purpose of the physical world?

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:57):
That's a good one.
I love that.
That's a good one.
I need to understand that.
Does anybody know?
No.
Next time we all do your journeyto ask for a cudge.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:10):
Yeah.

unknown (01:25:11):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:11):
Go in with that uh being our intention.
Amanda, thank you for for comingon here with us today.
Thanks for being our first guestback.
Like some people to you.
Yes.
But also, I kind of want to go,I want to come see you myself.
Yeah, love that.
And to all of our listeners,we'll put her information in the

(01:25:35):
bio.
Do you do Zoom or Yeah?

SPEAKER_04 (01:25:38):
I have people all over the world.
I prefer in person, but okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:43):
That's even better because we have a lot of
listeners who aren't local toLouable.
So yeah.
So we'll put her information inthe bio and the show notes and
stay open, be curious.
We'll see you guys on the otherside.

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100 | Healing Beyond Talk: Somatic Therapy with Amanda

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