May 6, 2024 • 57 mins
There comes a moment in every seeker's journey where the path forward demands not just intention, but a guiding hand. Our latest episode answers one of the questions we get a lot from beginners. 'Can I trip solo or do I need a guide?' Choosing a sitter or guide for psychedelic journeys, is a choice almost as critical as the experience itself. We share heartfelt narratives that illuminate the emotional intricacies of such decisions, discussing how relationships evolve and how these transformations can affect the sense of security one feels with a trip sitter. Unspoken bonds, trust, and the financial realities that often lead to non-professional support all come under our thoughtful gaze. We're not just talking about safety nets here; we're revealing the soul connections that make or break transformative experiences.
As we wade into the waters of our consciousness, the ripples of our psychedelic journeys extend far beyond the shores of the experience itself. We unravel the importance of integration, a journey that continues long after the effects of the substances have faded. It's a discussion that extends a hand to those who find it hard to ask for help, highlighting the power of surrendering to the care of a community. Each unique integration process is like a thread woven into the fabric of our lives, sometimes subtle like the benefits of microdosing, other times profound and life-altering. Our conversation takes a compassionate look at the lifelong dance of integrating insights into the everyday, a ballet of the soul that requires grace, patience, and the courage to be vulnerable.
Our exploration doesn't end at the boundaries of the mind; it spans to the significance of surrounding oneself with the right people. We reflect on what to look for in a trip sitter — someone who brings calm to the chaos, who lets emotional expressions flow uninhibited, and whose own inner work shines like a beacon in the tempest. The episode isn't just a guide; it's a companion piece to those seeking to embrace their quirks and the weirdness that makes us wonderfully human. We discuss resources like the Fireside Project for those in need, and through it all, a message is clear: the right support person isn't just valuable; they're essential, lending their serenity to our inner turmoil and aiding in the journey toward healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, leah, angelina.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, diane, there you go.
Christine, diane, what are wetalking about today?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Okay, so someone reached out to us and said that
she was wanting to trip sit forher sister and vice versa.
Okay, that we typicallyrecommend, but I feel like it's
(00:43):
a question, or it's a topic thatgets brought up a lot, where
people don't let's say theycan't afford to go to a retreat,
they don't feel comfortablewith you know someone they don't
know facilitating for them ortrip sitting for them, um, and
(01:06):
they don't have anybody that hasdone heroic doses and knows the
medicine to sit for them.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Another obstacle I think that I have come across is
some people can't afford tohave someone sit with them.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's expensive, it's really expensive.
Going to a retreat is expensive, whether you do it in the U S,
you know, out of the country you, you know you're doing it with
a psychedelic therapist.
You do it with a psychedelictherapist.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It's all expensive, yeah, and so I understand that.
So I wanted to talk about thattoday.
If it none of those things workfor you going to the retreat,
you know, doing psychedelictherapy, whatever the reason and
this is the way that you'regoing to go we want you to do it
(02:00):
safe, with the right person,and so we want to dive into that
today.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So the question is should I journey with a guide or
trip sitter, or should I do itsolo?
I feel like that's like theencompassing question, or I
guess in some of our listenerscases like could my boyfriend
(02:28):
sit for me, could my roommatesit for me?
Yeah, yeah.
So, to get into it, I think thefirst thing that we need to do
is talk about the differencebetween somebody being a trip
sitter and someone being a guide.
Okay, to do is talk about thedifference between somebody
being a trip sitter and someonebeing a guide.
Okay.
So I think being a trip sitteris a little less involved.
(02:50):
So you know how there's likelevels to a wedding planner and
there is like the person who sheworks with you for months and
does all the details and comesto you with decisions, like
final decisions, and then she'sthere the whole day, or I'm
saying she could be a he, likethey're there the entire day of
(03:11):
the wedding and you don't haveto do much work.
And then there's the package,the lower end of the package,
where it's like I'm just goingto be there the day of Right To
me, that's the differencebetween, like, someone who is a
guide and someone who is goingto be a trip sitter for you.
And I also.
There's a lot of negative.
(03:33):
I feel icky sometimes using theword guide because we're not
guiding Nobody's.
Nobody should be guiding youinto some type of experience.
They're really just there andyou are the person who is
guiding yourself.
But it's important to havesomeone who knows what that
looks like, and so there is alittle bit of a difference in
(03:55):
that and the word guide.
We're just using that in thisepisode because it's that more
in-depth person who is helpingyou prepare, helping you
integrate, helping you like amonth before your journey and a
month after your journey.
They know the medicine.
They know the medicine.
They've journeyed with itthemselves.
(04:17):
They're doing their own work.
That's to me like thedifference between a guide and a
trip sitter.
A trip sitter is like someonewho's like maybe done
psychedelics for fun a few timeshere and there, and they have a
little bit of experience, butnot much.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So, like Jason has trips that for you, tony has
trips that for me.
Yes, they don't necessarilyTony's done one journey.
Yeah, he doesn't necessarilyknow the medicine that well and
has been around it that often ormuch, but he is somebody who I
feel safe with, he is somebodywho, um, I trust he is somebody
(04:57):
who, like, makes me feel calm inthat type of an environment,
and so he has sat for me before.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You know it's interesting.
I just had this thought as youwere saying that, like my first
journey, I was not with myhusband, like I didn't feel safe
with him, period.
I was with a guide in the woods.
Yeah, the second journey, I wasin on this couch, actually in
the basement, by myself.
It was in the middle of the day, he was working and I was like
(05:27):
I don't need you, but I'll be inthe basement and I'll just let
you know if I need you, youdon't need to do anything.
And then towards the end of thetrip, like I needed him because
I couldn't human, couldn'tfunction as a human, function as
a human I don't know if, ifyou've ever experienced it
(05:47):
before, it's hard to explain,but like doing daily tasks seems
impossible, yeah, and I heardsomeone say in a podcast it's
like turning into a baby allover again.
Yeah, like you're like I wantwater, but oh my God, how do I
get, how do I do that?
Like I know I need water, butlike I'm going to have to go up
the stairs and I'm going to haveto get a glass and I'm going to
have to get the water and Ijust want to drink it.
(06:09):
Right, I just want somebodyelse to do that for me.
It's like reverting back to atoddler, where you're being
taken care of.
Um, and then the third journeyI did.
He actually did sit with me thewhole time, but I also think
that's a testimony of theevolution of our relationship.
Oh, absolutely Like where ittook years of healing and
(06:34):
evolving and growing for me tofeel emotionally safe with him,
and I actually have a video ofhim sitting with me in my last
journey and I kind of want toshare it eventually you should
Just a clip.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't think I've ever seen it.
Oh, yes, I have.
Yeah, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I like cry and tear up every time I see it,
because I'm like he was the bestsupporter in what I needed in
that time.
So I also.
We just released an episodeabout like the LSD and how we
had like a trips that are there.
Who was just there in casesomething went wrong?
(07:14):
Right, who was going to be thesober person If somebody fell
down and broke their leg or weneeded a ride out of the woods
or you know whatever?
Yeah, just someone there tokeep you safe.
There's also a differencebetween, like, a nanny and a
babysitter for a night, you know, yeah, so there's levels to
this.
Absolutely so sorry, I didn'tmean to go on a tangent, but you
(07:36):
were talking about how, like,Tony sat with you in your last
one but he didn't guide you.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
No, and honestly, when I was under the medicine, I
like he would come just to likesee if I was okay, and I would
literally tell him back like Iknow, like I'm sitting here.
That was the one where you'resweating out.
I'm like sweat out every traumaof my ancestors and what the?
(08:03):
You were having a rough time.
I was having a rough time and Istill told them I was fine.
Interesting because I knew thatI could get myself through it,
not saying that like I don'tneed you, I don't need you.
It was.
I knew I had to experience itand I had to experience it alone
(08:28):
because it was my ancestors.
Nothing personal there's nothinghe could have done Right, but I
knew like I just had to sitwith it.
And that was when my hair waslike super red and I was sitting
outside and I was like, oh, andit was fresh red.
It was fresh red and I didn'tput my hair up.
(08:51):
So dumb, so dumb.
I did not put my hair up and Iwas literally laying on my side
in a fetal position.
I've never sweat like that inmy life.
I have a sauna and I don'tsweat like that, and sweat beads
were literally coming out ofevery pore and my hair's in my
(09:14):
face and I, when I get done, Iliterally I lay in a cold bath
for like two hours and I hatefucking cold.
So that that just shows howchallenging it was.
But I look in the mirror andI'm like, oh my god, I looked
like Carrie.
Oh, because the red dye likebled on my face because I was
(09:37):
sweating that much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Oh my god, it was like just I should have taken a
picture, but I'm like I'm scaredyou shouldn't take.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I'm scared, I'm terrified of myself.
It looked like somebody hadpoured pig's blood over me.
Oh, that's disgusting.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was insane.
I really am mad you didn't takea picture.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Honestly, I am too, but it was really hard for me to
function for like a whilereally hard for me to function
for like a while.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And that's the thing.
Like you revert back to thatlike toddler, like state where
you want to be taken care of alittle bit and you need someone
there.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, but in that I it was like it took everything
out of me and I know this soundsweird and it was crazy, but it
was.
It was a necessary releasebecause I felt like I was
healing a lot of justgenerational trauma that I was
carrying and it's like for thatmoment I needed to be alone, to
(10:39):
just sit with it and decompressfrom it.
Just sit with it and decompressfrom it.
And so having a trip sitter whocan sit with you if you need it
also having a trip sitter whois not going to take it personal
and respects if you want to bealone and you need that too is
important.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So I think one of the first questions, whether you
are trying to decide whether youwant a trips that are going
solo, is like or the or guide umis what is your intention when
you're taking the medicine?
Are you just trying to havelike a good fun time with some
friends, maybe someone?
(11:18):
They're sober, maybe sometimesyou don't even need that and it
depends on the dose.
Like honestly, but like if youare going to go in to do a
heroic journey or to do somedeep, introspective healing work
, that's when I think like youneed somebody with you.
And there's a lot of opinionsabout this.
(11:40):
A lot of people think, no, youdo it solo, you do it solo.
This is why I disagree withthis.
A lot of people think, no, youdo it solo, you do it solo.
This is why I disagree withthis.
We are not meant to be a solosociety.
We are meant to be in community.
We are meant to be inconnection with people, and I
think there is something to besaid for healing the divine
(12:04):
feminine in you to be taken careof for a little bit, yeah, and
to feel like you're not a burden.
And I think one of the hardestthings for a lot of women these
days is feeling like they don'tneed to be taken care of.
And I think that there comeshealing when you realize like
it's okay to be taken care of.
And I think that there comeshealing when you realize like
(12:25):
it's okay to be taken care ofand it's also okay to ask for
help, because one of the thingslike we'll get into this, but
like when you have a trip sitteror somebody there with you,
like you can ask them forsomething yeah, can you get me
water?
Yeah, yeah, can you get mesomething to eat?
Right, and even if and that'shard when you're not, when
you're used to like notpracticing that muscle of asking
(12:45):
for help.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right and even like for me with that last journey.
Yes, I wanted to be alone, butI also knew he was there.
Yes, so like it wasn't that Iwas alone, I wanted some, some
space for myself to process whathad happened, but he was in the
other room and was there, youknow, on hand if I needed him at
(13:10):
any moment.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
You know what I think I just I think a guide is
important if it's your firsttime because, like I said before
, they're that person who'sgoing to be with you and help
you prepare for like a monthbefore.
They're going to help youreally, like they know and
(13:32):
understand the medicine so wellthat they're going to help you
fully prepare for yourexperience.
They're going to help you withthe diet, they're going to help
you with the protocols, they'regoing to help you every step of
the way and then, the day of,they're there with you and then
after that, they're helping youprocess and integrate and
helping you find guidance.
If they can't help guide you insome type of way with the
(13:54):
integration, and then, once youhave that understanding of what
the process looks like and it'skind of what we did I don't need
a guide anymore.
Yeah, I do need someone to sitwith me though.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that Um, because we have a
lot of um.
We have heard a lot of storiesof people who do it and then two
months later they'll do itagain, and two months later
they'll do it again, and twomonths later they'll do it again
where it's like it's reallyimportant to sit with the
(14:31):
medicine for a little while tohelp with integration.
And I think that's where aguide comes in to explain that,
yeah, whereas you've been onthis journey before, so you
already know that that's theintegration piece is is such an
integral, integral yeah, okay,that sounded weird when I said
(14:53):
it a little bit did, but I knewwhat you were saying.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay, I was like an integral part.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, it didn't sound right Integral part of the
process.
Yeah, so you just have to.
Again, if you're going to do atrip sitter, you don't have the
means to a guide or access to aguide.
Understand that that's such avital piece to it.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
It's not the piece that only goes with your first
trip, right?
You should be taking that withevery journey here on out A
hundred percent, and I thinkthat that's why you and I
afterwards were like we don'tneed a guide, right, but I?
But, because we know what thisprocess looks like.
We don't need someone to tellus what, how to surrender to the
(15:39):
medicine, because we'veexperienced it and we know what
that looks like.
Um, we don't need someone tohold our hands Right and we know
, experienced it and we knowwhat that looks like.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
We don't need someone to hold our hands Right and we
know the first time we did Rightand we know that integration is
not like OK, I do A, b, c, d, e.
Yes, integration can bedifferent for each journey,
depending on what you need, butit's being able to sit with
yourself to kind of dissect allpieces of your life, like, all
(16:05):
right, how am I showing up in mymarriage?
How am I showing up as a parent?
How's work, how are the peopleI surround myself with?
What needs to change?
I'm going to start somatictherapy soon.
That's something I've neverdone before and realized that I
really really needed it.
(16:26):
Integration looks verydifferent every single time and
I think it's like I just can'tstress that enough Like being
able to sit with yourself andreally take that introspective
look to see what it is that youneed to integrate.
I just had this thought becauseit never ends.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It really never ends Like a lot of the integration
process is like the next sixmonths after your journey, Like
and I say the rest of your life.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
True Integration is your entire, like it is
literally your life.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I just had this thought, because you know how
we've done an episode onmicrodosing and with microdosing
it's like you don't feel theeffects, but then we tell people
, like at the end of the day,maybe look back at your day and
see where or how you showed up alittle bit different or where
(17:17):
you may you were triggered, butinstead of respond, reacting,
you responded and you sat withit, like that means it's working
Right, and so with a microdose,it's something that you're
taking like every other day,every two or three days, and
that's the part of the processwith a large journey, I would
(17:37):
almost say because it's a largerjourney and it's a larger scale
at the end of the month sinceyour journey and say what's been
different this month?
How have I showed updifferently?
You know what I'm.
Does that make sense?
What I'm trying to say?
Like I'm trying to like relateit back to the microdosing and
(17:59):
at the end of the day, with,with, with the medicine, it's
like at the end of every monthbecause your second month might
not be so easy, your third monthmight get a little bit harder,
and we tell people this all thetime, but like you might stay in
that mushroom glow or thatmushroom cloud for a little bit
and things might be awesome andgreat.
And we actually just did anepisode with Allie where she had
(18:21):
that experience.
And then life happens, yeah,six months after her journey,
yeah, where it's like, oh shit,now I have to put in the real
work.
Now it's not so rainbows andbutterflies and it's not so
peaceful, and you know, this iswhere the work starts.
So I think when you're doing ajourney, too often you don't
(18:45):
allow yourself that time toreally integrate fully the
experience and let it sit outfor a little bit.
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's.
That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So my thing was going to be like the difference
between a trip sitter and aguide, um who?
Well, I'm just going to handyou my phone, Um, I think that
one of the important things isthat, no matter who you're with,
if your intention is to do deepwork, you need to be someone
(19:21):
who is with someone who is alsodoing that and who has an
understanding of what doing thework means.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yes, it can't just be your bestie right, it really
can't, and it may not be yourhusband, it may not be your wife
, it may.
So it's again, it's like youhave to use.
If you're going to do a tripcenter, again, we want you to do
it safely, as safely aspossible.
It may not be the personclosest to you which I kind of
(19:50):
want to get into.
Yeah, you know what and when I,when we say like a heroic
journey and you need a tripsitter, I would say like three,
three grams up, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yes, I'm going to let you just kind of go down the
list and I can all like speak oradd, or we can like elaborate
on some of them.
So when choosing someone to sitwith you, these are probably
the things that you want to lookfor in someone.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, okay, so it would.
This isn't always going to bethe case, but it is.
Would be nice if you hadsomebody who was knowledgeable
about the medicine, understoodthe dose, its effects, all of
that, and I'll get into morelater on as to why.
Yeah, ok, because when you do ajourney, you don't know what's
going to come up.
Yeah, and they don't either.
(20:49):
There's no way to predict that.
It's not a black and whitething.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I should also say there are a lot of tools out
there for people.
One of the things I did beforeI sat with someone for the first
time was there's a book, thePsychedelic Explorer's Guide.
Yes, that kind of teaches youabout each medicine.
So I went to the chapter onpsilocybin and I read every part
(21:19):
of that.
Let it soak in, we'll link itand good idea.
And I didn't.
It's not like necessarily like,and now you know how to guide
people, but I wanted a betterunderstanding of it.
Even though I had already satwith the medicine, I wanted to
be prepared for anything.
So that's important in findingsomeone.
I have talked with peoplebefore who has had their husband
(21:44):
sit with them and their husbandhas never done the medicine.
I've talked with their husbandand said this is what may or may
not come up and this is whatyou should or shouldn't do, and
this is what it means to be insupport of someone on a journey
and you really don't interfere.
(22:04):
So it can be someone, as longas that person is willing to
really dive in and understandwhat it means to be in support
of you with this medicine and beknowledgeable in the best way
that they can be.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, Okay, so some characteristics to look out for,
and again I want to stress thatyou may not have someone who is
every single one of these.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
True.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It may be a hard thing to find.
So, again, using your bestjudgment, let's say who's the
most of these in your life, whochecks the most boxes?
Okay, so you want somebody whois nonjudgmental, um, and
(22:59):
they're able to be curious andinquisitive.
So I guess an example I woulduse is there are a lot of people
who I've told that I did aheroic journey and it has
nothing to do with them, andthey don't even want to hear
(23:20):
about it.
Like they can't hear about itbecause it's against everything
that we got taught.
So it's like they can't evenlike digest what I'm telling
them.
They don't want to.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Don't tell me things I don't want to know.
Probably not the right person.
Definitely not the right person.
What about can I add to that?
Absolutely, keep, like, addwhatever I say.
Okay, let's say, like you feelI'm just going to throw this out
there You're close with yoursister, but your sister is this
like I don't.
I just don't believe in themeta, I just don't believe in
this kind of stuff.
It goes against everything Ibelieve.
(23:50):
But like, okay, fine, I'll sitwith you.
No, yeah, no yeah, because thatenergy is going to show up,
yeah, and you're going to be inyour head that day energetically
thinking like I shouldn't bedoing this.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
So no, yeah, and it doesn't even have to be about
psilocybin no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Give them some homework.
Be like this is what I read,this is what I've watched, this
is what the process is.
You should watch and do thesame things, and I'm going to
take that even back to, likewhat I said in a previous
episode about the what to expect.
When you're expecting justwanting my partner to to know
what I was going through, yeah,that to me is like a big green
(24:57):
flag.
If you're doing this withsomeone and they want to know
more about it in the way thatyou do, a hundred percent.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Um, um, someone who is easygoing.
So do you know those people who?
They are the control freaks.
They have to have a say, theyhave to like, they have to take
over.
Also, not the right person.
(25:29):
You want somebody who again,because what I said earlier, you
don't know what's going to showup for you, you don't know the
emotions you're going to feelduring.
They don't know what's going toshow up for you.
There is a lot ofunpredictability with this.
Yes, you could have the bestjourney of your life and
everything's rainbow andbutterflies, or it could be like
(25:49):
my journey, where it's likehundreds and hundreds of years
of ancestral trauma.
I don't know Dungeons anddragons, I'm not sure you don't
know.
And so somebody who is able tokind of roll with what's going
on and they're not going to tryto control the situation or
(26:09):
control you in this situation.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Can I give such a small example of that?
Yeah, such a small examplewould be of someone not to have
with you is someone who's likeit's okay, don't cry.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Don't cry, which I feel like that's a level of
control.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Right, yeah, like they're uncomfortable with you
crying and they're like you knowit's okay You're, you're on
mushrooms, but you know don'tcry.
Yeah, no, you want someonewho's going to be like it's okay
to cry.
Yeah, let it out.
Yeah, whatever you need to do,let it out.
I'm here to witness and watchand not watch like creepy, not
in a creepy way.
But, like you know, I'm here towitness your healing and and if
(26:55):
you need to jump around andscream, do that.
I'm not going to judge you forfeeling that way.
Like I've sat with people who,like shake uncontrollably and
they're apologizing for it andI'm like you're having a very
somatic experience, Like youremotions are leaving your body
in a in a somatic way, Likedon't apologize for that.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, it's not weird, absolutely At all.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Absolutely yeah.
So basically, be with someonewho's okay with, like, seeing
some weird shit.
Yeah, and there is not going tobe weird about seeing some
weird shit, right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Right Now we kind of were talking about it with, with
, with Jason, um, how, in thethird journey that you did, he
sat with you the whole time andhe was very attentive.
So attentive so you wantsomebody who is going to like
(27:48):
care for you if you need it.
You basically need a mother.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yes, yes, yes.
Can I explain further on how hewas attentive?
Sure, um, at this point I hadjourneyed solo, solo ish.
When I say solo, I always hadsomebody with me.
But, like at this point, I hadjourneyed solo ish and I
probably wouldn't have asked forhelp.
But he noticed I was strugglingand he straight up was like do
(28:18):
you need any help?
And just hearing that broke medown.
I was like, yeah, I think I do.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And he came over and he sat next to me, but like
having someone to who is awareenough and attentive enough to
see that you're struggling, whocan ask what you need, because
you may not be able toarticulate what you need.
You may not even know thatthat's an option because you're
(28:46):
still in this other world.
You're like wait, I think I doneed a little bit of help.
Yeah, can you just come sitnext to me, or can you hold my
hand, or can you turn the lightson, or can you change the music
, so someone who can notice thatyou're being, that you're a
little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I'm going to add to that.
Go for it.
This is so small but it's notSomeone who would be willing to
help you go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Like who do you feel comfortable and who do you have
trust and faith, knowing theywill help you go to the bathroom
?
I Because you Would not haveeven thought of that May need
help going to the bathroom.
Well, I'm saying that they'regoing to have to wipe your ass,
but you just need you know youmight, it might, you might and
you might just need help walkingto the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I think a good thing to ask is they might not ever
need to wipe your ass, but wouldyou feel comfortable if they
did wait?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So would you wipe my ass if I needed it?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I probably would in that setting.
Yeah, I really probably would.
I would too, but I wouldprobably like also I don't
something I don't think a lot ofpeople know is that, like
psilocybin, is also a diuretic,so it can make you want to shit
or puke.
Okay, puking, that's anotherthing you might throw up.
Have someone with you who's notgoing to be grossed out by you
(30:16):
puking and who's going to cleanit up and be like oh my gosh,
don't worry about it, it happens.
Yeah, because that could happen.
You might pee your pants, youmight not, but if someone sees
you struggling and they're likeare you okay, do you need
anything?
You're going to be like I thinkI need to pee, yeah, and they
can hold your hand to thebathroom.
(30:37):
Which side note, yeah, thediuretic.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
That is why we fast the day of yeah, so just keep
that in mind.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, what goes?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
in must come out.
I mean not always.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's not ayahuasca true I will just say I have not
well, I just tell people, orshat I recommend fasting of
psilocybin, true, and but Ialways recommend fasting because
it's like you will get nauseousand if you have stuff sitting
in your stomach, it's gonna comeup.
It's probably gonna come up.
It's probably going to come up.
So, if you want to eat, makesure you're okay with it coming
(31:13):
back up.
Yeah, yeah, because it'sprobably going to happen.
Yes, okay, keep going.
Sorry, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So we we talked about how, again, you can have this
beautiful, everything'sbeautiful type journey, but also
you can have something that'sreally really hard or
challenging.
You want someone who is calm inthat sense and somebody who is
(31:43):
not just going to react and isnot just going to be impulsive
to go do something.
They're able to kind of take abreath.
They're.
They're able to maybe handle alittle bit of pressure.
They, they handle pressure alittle well.
Um, and we have said we don'thand handle pressure well, but
not in this situation, becausewe know and we're more
(32:06):
comfortable, we know that thisis kind of how the process is
supposed to go.
But somebody who is, if you'rehaving a hard time, they're like
, okay, I'm gonna take you tothe hospital or I'm gonna call
the cops or I'm going to youknow what I mean.
They're going to freak out andyou're going to feel that yeah,
you want somebody who is alittle calm, level-headed.
They're not just going to react, they're going to think and sit
(32:27):
with it for a second.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Well, let me give a little bit of an example of that
Like.
So, sometimes people can getcaught in loops, and that is a
natural thing.
It can happen.
Have you ever been caught inone?
I feel like we've talked aboutthis, maybe not.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
No, I have not Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
They're terrifying because you, before you go into
an experience, know that you'regoing to be in and out within
you know six to eight hours andif you get caught in a loop,
that feels like an eternity.
It feels like you're nevergoing to get out of it.
It feels like this is the waythat you're going to be for the
rest of your life, and Ishouldn't have done it.
(33:03):
I'm the one that they werewarning me about it.
Fucked with my like.
Now I'm in.
Now I'm in psychosispermanently, like it'll fuck
with you if you get stuck in aloop and being with someone who
is who knows that that's apossibility can kind of hold
your hand through that and sayyou're not like this.
It's not going to stay like thisforever.
You're on mushrooms right now.
(33:23):
You're going to stay like thisforever.
You're on mushrooms right now.
You're going to come out of it.
It's going to take a little bit, but you're going to be fine,
instead of someone who's goingto freak out and be like, oh my
god, yeah, what if you're inpsychosis?
Oh shit, I don't know what todo with this, oh my god, we
fucked up right, right, youwould fuck up.
you would be so fucked up ifsomeone was telling you that
that was supposed to be likesitting with you.
(33:45):
Yeah, that would really fuckwith your head.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Oh, 100%, 100%.
Okay, here's another one.
Okay.
So you, for example, okay, youare someone that I can talk to
about deep, dark things.
I've been talking to you aboutmother wounds, father wounds,
(34:10):
past trauma, all this heavystuff that is oftentimes hard
for us to talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Especially when talking to the wrong person
Sometimes even our closestfriends.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
It's hard to do.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Oh God, yeah, 100%.
But on the other hand and Ithink people can see from
listening to us on the podcastor seeing our content I also
have a lot of fun with you.
We can joke, we can laugh, wecan be silly.
I think both are essential.
You want someone who can doboth, because I've had two
(34:48):
journeys now where ancestralstuff came up.
First one, I came out, I wassmiling, I was grinning from ear
to ear.
I was like I was like that wasamazing and we were like
laughing about it and likeamazing.
And we were like laughing aboutit and like it was happy and
all was good.
Well, you weren't there for theother one, but that one was.
(35:14):
It was really challenging andit was hard and it was dark, um,
and I was able to talk to youabout both and I felt safe doing
so and I think finding someonewho can hold space for all of it
is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
That's a really good point.
I'm going to rewind it a littlebit about like the being calm
or something.
We've said this before, but Ithink a big part of being a
guide or a trip sitter islending someone your calm
nervous system.
That's a huge piece of beingable to sit with someone and
(35:54):
remaining calm in their chaos iscan you remain a calm nervous
system so when they're freakingout, they can feed off of your
calm energy, because if youfreak out, they're going to
freak out even more yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, the person that you'rethinking of sitting with you how
do they handle their home,their own life?
Do they suppress their emotions?
Do they um not takeaccountability?
Do they um project onto otherpeople?
(36:37):
Do they?
Are they kind of like what yousaid?
Are they doing the work?
Are they doing the work?
I don't want someone to sit forme who doesn't do the work,
doesn't take accountability fortheir actions, doesn't do any
type of introspective work, umprojects their wounds,
(37:08):
suppresses their emotion.
Anger is not a valid feeling.
To feel like you know that's.
I don't want that.
So it's like the person who youwant to sit with you.
How do they live their life?
Yeah, is it a life where, like,they're on their own healing
journey?
Or is it a life where theyavoid all of those things,
because those things are hard, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I really like that you're saying this, because
sometimes I think people arelike well, what does it matter
if they're just sitting with mefor a few hours?
Energy baby, that matters somuch.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh God, yeah, so much Because, again, let's say,
something comes up and you're,you're you're not like in the
depths of it, but you, you comeout of it, you're still a little
, still a little loopy and youwant to talk about it.
How are they going to show upfor you in that moment?
What advice are they going togive you?
Right, if they're not doing thework themselves?
(38:01):
I'd be like your advice sucksRight Like hell.
No, yeah, no.
So it's like, think about thatperson and how they are living
their life.
That's a big one, that's a hugeone.
(38:21):
Okay, another thing you comeout of it.
You may want to talk for hours,you may not shut the hell up
about what just happened.
I feel like that happens a lotTotally.
And, yes, you want someone totalk, but I've done journeys.
You know there's I've donejourneys where I've sat with
people and they come out of itand I have no idea what happened
(38:45):
.
I have no idea what theyexperienced.
I have no idea any details ofit.
Yeah, that is also okay,because it's not my journey,
it's theirs.
So is that person okay with,like you holding on to it for a
(39:06):
little bit and you keeping it toyourself?
Like, are they comfortable if,like you're, like I don't feel
like talking about it, or youjust don't say anything at all I
usually that is something Iwill tell someone's spouse.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, when they are like coming home from a journey,
like, don't ask too manyquestions, they will share when
they're ready to share.
Don't get upset if they can'texplain it, because their mind
and their body are playing alittle bit of catch up right now
and you putting pressure onthem to share their experiences
(39:44):
is only gonna make it harder forthem to share their experiences
, is only going to make itharder for them to share.
Yeah, so yeah, that goes withthe trip sitter too.
Like a lot of times people comeout of it and I don't know what
they experienced, but we'restill talking for hours.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, my last journey .
I didn't tell Tony any details.
For a long time we sat insilence and he was okay with
that.
I love that, because talkingwas not what I needed at the
moment, but to me he held spacefor me to be able to just sit in
(40:18):
silence and still be, it beokay.
And and then, when I was ready,then I started to talk about it
more.
Yeah, so somebody who is aboutit more.
Yeah, so somebody who is okaywith that.
Yeah, this is a good one.
Okay, someone who isemotionally intelligent, that's
a hard one.
That is a hard one.
(40:39):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Literally.
Up until a few years ago, Iused to always say like I'm not
book smart, but I'm street smart, and I did not realize what I
was trying to say was.
I am emotionally intelligent.
I am not IQ smart.
Yeah yeah, but I didn't knowthere was a difference.
And it's like now that I'vewatched a few TED Talks on it
about the importance ofemotional intelligence and why
(41:04):
it's more important than IQ, andI'm like, holy shit.
I've had some conversationswith people who are IQ smart but
not very emotionallyintelligent and it is hard.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know emotional
intelligence and being able to,like hold space for yourself,
hold space for other people.
Um, again, going back to oh,like no, no, no, no, Don't cry.
(41:40):
Oh no, no, no, no, don't don'tbe mad, don't feel sad, don't
feel sad, don't feel angry whereit's like no, I shouldn't feel
mad.
Yeah, an emotionallyintelligent person is going to
be able to hold space for all ofthose things, because it it's
they're comfortable with theirown expression of emotions.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yes, yes, yeah, I used to, not too long ago, get
very upset with my husbandbecause he could not hold space
for my emotions, and it wasbecause he wasn't able to hold
space for his.
Yeah, and have you ever heardthat word Like if you are with
someone who's emotionallyunavailable, it's not because
(42:23):
they're emotionally unavailableto you, it's because they are
unemotionally available tothemselves.
They do not know how to holdspace and express their emotions
, so they don't, and so whensomeone else does, it makes them
very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
I've dated a lot of men who struggled if I felt sad
about something, if I was angryabout something, but they missed
out, because Tony allows me tofeel the depths of sadness and
(43:05):
grief and frustration and angeralso.
On the other end, there's deeplove, there's deep peace,
there's happiness, like.
I feel this because and I alsoget to feel this Mm-hmm and both
are necessary and important.
(43:27):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
I like that one Emotionally intelligent.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
I do too.
Okay, here's another one.
Who is someone that you feelcomfortable with?
That you feel comfortable with.
(43:54):
You went camping with them, oryou're out in the woods or in
the forest or whatever, and youwould be okay with that person
for a week or two.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's a hard one.
That is a hard one.
Let me tell you why.
There are people that I havevacationed with, but then I
retreat back to my little roomto take a little break from
peopling with the people and Ialso am like okay, that was a
(44:26):
lot.
I come home and I want todecompress, I want to take
another vacation from the peopleI just vacationed with.
So I think it would need to besomeone that, like you, can
vacation with for two weekswithout wanting the breaks and
without feeling like you have to.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yeah.
You're so patient after you'reyou're really right, cause there
have been trips.
I've gone on where I'm like ohmy God, this person is
exhausting.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yes, and you get the energies just don't match up.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, they just don't align, and that's okay, it's
not, but it's almost like well,it's vacation, it's like we're
hanging out you know in the past, drinking, doing this, whatever
and then you go back to yourroom.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I guess what I mean is I have a thought Okay,
someone you can be with for twoweeks without your mask on, oh,
so good.
Because those kinds ofvacations are very different,
(45:36):
where you feel seen, fully seenby the people that you're
surrounding yourself with.
So that's why I'm like that.
When you showed me thatquestion, I was like we can
elaborate, and that's why Ithink it's important to
elaborate, like going onvacation with someone with a
family member, or like you guyshave been friends for a long
(45:58):
time, like that's very differentthan going on vacation with
someone where you can fullyunmask.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And be your authentic self, yeah, self where you
don't have to put the mask onfor anybody, right, yeah,
there's a difference, absolutely.
So what if it's like who youcan vacation, who you can put
your mask away with for twoweeks?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yes, put your mask away with two weeks.
I love that.
I love that because, becausethat is so true, because you
know like, again, using you asan example, I feel like I can be
myself.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Be your weird batty self.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
But like, yes, you see goofy, you see silly, you
see funny, but also you see deepand you see, you know strong
emotions that feel and anddarkness that I feel, like y'all
think we're weird.
Now you should hear us when themics aren't on I know like we
have some weird fuckingconversation, yeah I literally
(46:56):
did mvma and I was talking thewhole time and this past weekend
and I out loud, I'm like, oh myGod, I sound so fucking weird
right now and I knew that.
But again, the person who I waswith, it was OK, it was OK.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
The thoughts that are coming out.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I'm like I'm speaking my thoughts and I don't know
how OK they are.
They sound fucking weird.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Two years ago I'd been like weird oh, and now you
embrace your weird exactly.
I'm like yeah a vacation withsomeone who is okay with you
being your fucking weird self.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Okay, and I'm just gonna say why there was.
I was doing MDMA and I wasoutside, and there was, I was
doing MDMA and I was outside and, um, there was a moth, a
beautiful moth, and you have athing with moths.
I never had a thing with moths.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
You didn't understand my thing.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Well, you know what I probably didn't have a thing
with moths because I didn'tnotice.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't, and maybeI wasn't ready to notice.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Exactly.
The teacher comes when thestudent is ready.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And so this, this, this little, this moth, comes
and sits like like literallyright next to me and I'm like,
hi, dad, that must be my dad.
And I was like it's my dad, ortony, it's your mom or your dad.
And I was like you know whichone is it?
And I'm like if I were sayingthat to some random fucking dude
(48:36):
, chick, whatever, they'd belike mental health hospital, um,
I'm, I'm going to need to,christine, I'm going to need to
send her in.
Yeah, it's a moth where he waslike oh yeah, maybe I bet, cause
I bet I bet it's your dad,cause I and again I was talking
(49:00):
about family things, yeah and soI was like oh my God, it's my
dad holding space for me whileI'm talking about it.
I don't think that's weird atall.
Thanks, moth Dad.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Well, now it's getting weird.
I love our relationship now.
Now, every time you see me, heyDad, hey Dad, oh shit.
And if you are a new listener,dad is dead not that that's
funny.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
No, it's not.
Oh, it's the moth.
It's that.
I think he's a moth, right,that's what's funny.
Yes, yes, but I, and, but, I,and I, I, I really do think he's
, I really thought he probablywas.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I know, I'm not even saying he probably was, that was
your dad.
It was, that was your dad, hewas literally holding space for
me.
How many people.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Can you say that to Exactly my point, Exactly who
can you tell that to whenthey're like?
Okay, I'm going to leave now.
I feel uncomfortable becauseshe needs to be medicated.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Okay, so I want to really quickly go into why I
don't recommend doing solo, evenif you're experienced.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
And what I mean by that is exactly like the way
that you and I have said, likewe'll do it solo, but there's
always someone with us whounderstands.
And I do think we're very Idon't want to say lucky or
blessed, but I think it's aprivilege that we have two
(50:40):
partners who are in this spacewith us, because I recognize
that not everybody has that, orsometimes it's like your partner
that you're trying to heal from, but just sometimes having them
in this in the area, and theyalso understand the medicine, to
know that like, oh, she's goingto need help.
When she's done, I'm going tobe there for them to help them.
(51:04):
Help when she's done, I'm goingto be there for them to help
them.
So those little things likemake a big difference.
I, the few times, the one timethat I was like completely by
myself in my house all alone,you thought you were going to
die.
I thought I was dying.
Yeah, I really did.
I can't imagine being in thatheadspace right the entire time
(51:26):
and feeling like I have no oneto reach out to and no one to
support.
So I feel like, at the veryfucking least, the very least,
have someone know what you'redoing.
Like, again, I'm gonna, I'mgonna reiterate and I'm gonna
say this again I don't recommenddoing it solo.
Yeah, 100 by yourself.
I really don't.
But if you'm going to say thisagain, I don't recommend doing
it solo.
(51:46):
Yeah, 100% by yourself.
I really don't.
But if you are going to be thatperson, at the very least have
someone on standby, can we?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
also talk about um, just in case, if you need it.
Fireside project Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Okay, what are they?
The fireside Project is anonprofit, free organization who
offers support 24-7 to anyonewho is experiencing a
challenging psychedelicexperience, and you can text or
call them.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and isn't the numberliterally just Fireside Project?
Is that what you're trying todo and you couldn't get into?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
my phone, literally Okay, because I was trying to
find the number.
Literally just Fireside Project.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Is that what you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (52:24):
and you couldn't get into my phone, literally Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Because I was trying to find the number.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
The Fireside Project.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I think it's literally Fireside Project or
it's Fireside, it's something.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Yeah, it's a psychedelic support line that
provides emotional supportduring and after you call or
text 6 to Fireside.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
OK 6 to Fireside.
I was like I knew it hadsomething with Fireside.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And I was wrong.
They used to be 24 hours.
Now it says open every day 11am to 11 pm.
Ok, that's still pretty good soyou can call or text someone.
Oh, I really like their wholewebsite.
They've changed.
They've changed and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
They've evolved and we love it.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
This literally on their website front page.
Don't go solo I love that Donot journey at a moderate to
high dose without a sober friendnearby who can provide a
supportive grounding presence.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
God we're so good.
Look at us.
Just what we said.
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought, not me,not me.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
On that note.
On that note I really thinklisten again.
We are not meant to do lifesolo.
We're not.
So at the very least, have alittle bit of support.
Have a trip sitter with you whoknows what they're doing.
If it can't be a guide, have asitter yeah can't be a sitter.
(53:58):
Have a friend who checks asmany of those boxes.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
yeah, and if you um this episode was beneficial to
you or it could be beneficial tosomeone you know who is
interested in the space, send itto them please, cause I feel
like this is very informative.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
All right, all right, let's wrap it up.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
All of our listeners hope you're being safe.
Be open, stay curious, we'llsee you on the other side.
Bye, always different.
Okay, leah, angelina.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, diane, there you go.
Christine, diane, what are wetalking about today?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Okay, so someone reached out to us and said that
she was wanting to trip sit forher sister and vice versa.
Okay, that we typicallyrecommend, but I feel like it's
(00:43):
a question, or it's a topic thatgets brought up a lot, where
people don't let's say theycan't afford to go to a retreat,
they don't feel comfortablewith you know someone they don't
know facilitating for them ortrip sitting for them, um, and
(01:06):
they don't have anybody that hasdone heroic doses and knows the
medicine to sit for them.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Another obstacle I think that I have come across is
some people can't afford tohave someone sit with them.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's expensive, it's really expensive.
Going to a retreat is expensive, whether you do it in the U S,
you know, out of the country you, you know you're doing it with
a psychedelic therapist.
You do it with a psychedelictherapist.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It's all expensive, yeah, and so I understand that.
So I wanted to talk about thattoday.
If it none of those things workfor you going to the retreat,
you know, doing psychedelictherapy, whatever the reason and
this is the way that you'regoing to go we want you to do it
(02:00):
safe, with the right person,and so we want to dive into that
today.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So the question is should I journey with a guide or
trip sitter, or should I do itsolo?
I feel like that's like theencompassing question, or I
guess in some of our listenerscases like could my boyfriend
(02:28):
sit for me, could my roommatesit for me?
Yeah, yeah.
So, to get into it, I think thefirst thing that we need to do
is talk about the differencebetween somebody being a trip
sitter and someone being a guide.
Okay, to do is talk about thedifference between somebody
being a trip sitter and someonebeing a guide.
Okay.
So I think being a trip sitteris a little less involved.
(02:50):
So you know how there's likelevels to a wedding planner and
there is like the person who sheworks with you for months and
does all the details and comesto you with decisions, like
final decisions, and then she'sthere the whole day, or I'm
saying she could be a he, likethey're there the entire day of
(03:11):
the wedding and you don't haveto do much work.
And then there's the package,the lower end of the package,
where it's like I'm just goingto be there the day of Right To
me, that's the differencebetween, like, someone who is a
guide and someone who is goingto be a trip sitter for you.
And I also.
There's a lot of negative.
(03:33):
I feel icky sometimes using theword guide because we're not
guiding Nobody's.
Nobody should be guiding youinto some type of experience.
They're really just there andyou are the person who is
guiding yourself.
But it's important to havesomeone who knows what that
looks like, and so there is alittle bit of a difference in
(03:55):
that and the word guide.
We're just using that in thisepisode because it's that more
in-depth person who is helpingyou prepare, helping you
integrate, helping you like amonth before your journey and a
month after your journey.
They know the medicine.
They know the medicine.
They've journeyed with itthemselves.
(04:17):
They're doing their own work.
That's to me like thedifference between a guide and a
trip sitter.
A trip sitter is like someonewho's like maybe done
psychedelics for fun a few timeshere and there, and they have a
little bit of experience, butnot much.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
So, like Jason has trips that for you, tony has
trips that for me.
Yes, they don't necessarilyTony's done one journey.
Yeah, he doesn't necessarilyknow the medicine that well and
has been around it that often ormuch, but he is somebody who I
feel safe with, he is somebodywho, um, I trust he is somebody
(04:57):
who, like, makes me feel calm inthat type of an environment,
and so he has sat for me before.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
You know it's interesting.
I just had this thought as youwere saying that, like my first
journey, I was not with myhusband, like I didn't feel safe
with him, period.
I was with a guide in the woods.
Yeah, the second journey, I wasin on this couch, actually in
the basement, by myself.
It was in the middle of the day, he was working and I was like
(05:27):
I don't need you, but I'll be inthe basement and I'll just let
you know if I need you, youdon't need to do anything.
And then towards the end of thetrip, like I needed him because
I couldn't human, couldn'tfunction as a human, function as
a human I don't know if, ifyou've ever experienced it
(05:47):
before, it's hard to explain,but like doing daily tasks seems
impossible, yeah, and I heardsomeone say in a podcast it's
like turning into a baby allover again.
Yeah, like you're like I wantwater, but oh my God, how do I
get, how do I do that?
Like I know I need water, butlike I'm going to have to go up
the stairs and I'm going to haveto get a glass and I'm going to
have to get the water and Ijust want to drink it.
(06:09):
Right, I just want somebodyelse to do that for me.
It's like reverting back to atoddler, where you're being
taken care of.
Um, and then the third journeyI did.
He actually did sit with me thewhole time, but I also think
that's a testimony of theevolution of our relationship.
Oh, absolutely Like where ittook years of healing and
(06:34):
evolving and growing for me tofeel emotionally safe with him,
and I actually have a video ofhim sitting with me in my last
journey and I kind of want toshare it eventually you should
Just a clip.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't think I've ever seen it.
Oh, yes, I have.
Yeah, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I like cry and tear up every time I see it,
because I'm like he was the bestsupporter in what I needed in
that time.
So I also.
We just released an episodeabout like the LSD and how we
had like a trips that are there.
Who was just there in casesomething went wrong?
(07:14):
Right, who was going to be thesober person If somebody fell
down and broke their leg or weneeded a ride out of the woods
or you know whatever?
Yeah, just someone there tokeep you safe.
There's also a differencebetween, like, a nanny and a
babysitter for a night, you know, yeah, so there's levels to
this.
Absolutely so sorry, I didn'tmean to go on a tangent, but you
(07:36):
were talking about how, like,Tony sat with you in your last
one but he didn't guide you.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
No, and honestly, when I was under the medicine, I
like he would come just to likesee if I was okay, and I would
literally tell him back like Iknow, like I'm sitting here.
That was the one where you'resweating out.
I'm like sweat out every traumaof my ancestors and what the?
(08:03):
You were having a rough time.
I was having a rough time and Istill told them I was fine.
Interesting because I knew thatI could get myself through it,
not saying that like I don'tneed you, I don't need you.
It was.
I knew I had to experience itand I had to experience it alone
(08:28):
because it was my ancestors.
Nothing personal there's nothinghe could have done Right, but I
knew like I just had to sitwith it.
And that was when my hair waslike super red and I was sitting
outside and I was like, oh, andit was fresh red.
It was fresh red and I didn'tput my hair up.
(08:51):
So dumb, so dumb.
I did not put my hair up and Iwas literally laying on my side
in a fetal position.
I've never sweat like that inmy life.
I have a sauna and I don'tsweat like that, and sweat beads
were literally coming out ofevery pore and my hair's in my
(09:14):
face and I, when I get done, Iliterally I lay in a cold bath
for like two hours and I hatefucking cold.
So that that just shows howchallenging it was.
But I look in the mirror andI'm like, oh my god, I looked
like Carrie.
Oh, because the red dye likebled on my face because I was
(09:37):
sweating that much.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Oh my god, it was like just I should have taken a
picture, but I'm like I'm scaredyou shouldn't take.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I'm scared, I'm terrified of myself.
It looked like somebody hadpoured pig's blood over me.
Oh, that's disgusting.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was insane.
I really am mad you didn't takea picture.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Honestly, I am too, but it was really hard for me to
function for like a whilereally hard for me to function
for like a while.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
And that's the thing.
Like you revert back to thatlike toddler, like state where
you want to be taken care of alittle bit and you need someone
there.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, but in that I it was like it took everything
out of me and I know this soundsweird and it was crazy, but it
was.
It was a necessary releasebecause I felt like I was
healing a lot of justgenerational trauma that I was
carrying and it's like for thatmoment I needed to be alone, to
(10:39):
just sit with it and decompressfrom it.
Just sit with it and decompressfrom it.
And so having a trip sitter whocan sit with you if you need it
also having a trip sitter whois not going to take it personal
and respects if you want to bealone and you need that too is
important.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So I think one of the first questions, whether you
are trying to decide whether youwant a trips that are going
solo, is like or the or guide umis what is your intention when
you're taking the medicine?
Are you just trying to havelike a good fun time with some
friends, maybe someone?
(11:18):
They're sober, maybe sometimesyou don't even need that and it
depends on the dose.
Like honestly, but like if youare going to go in to do a
heroic journey or to do somedeep, introspective healing work
, that's when I think like youneed somebody with you.
And there's a lot of opinionsabout this.
(11:40):
A lot of people think, no, youdo it solo, you do it solo.
This is why I disagree withthis.
A lot of people think, no, youdo it solo, you do it solo.
This is why I disagree withthis.
We are not meant to be a solosociety.
We are meant to be in community.
We are meant to be inconnection with people, and I
think there is something to besaid for healing the divine
(12:04):
feminine in you to be taken careof for a little bit, yeah, and
to feel like you're not a burden.
And I think one of the hardestthings for a lot of women these
days is feeling like they don'tneed to be taken care of.
And I think that there comeshealing when you realize like
it's okay to be taken care of.
And I think that there comeshealing when you realize like
(12:25):
it's okay to be taken care ofand it's also okay to ask for
help, because one of the thingslike we'll get into this, but
like when you have a trip sitteror somebody there with you,
like you can ask them forsomething yeah, can you get me
water?
Yeah, yeah, can you get mesomething to eat?
Right, and even if and that'shard when you're not, when
you're used to like notpracticing that muscle of asking
(12:45):
for help.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right and even like for me with that last journey.
Yes, I wanted to be alone, butI also knew he was there.
Yes, so like it wasn't that Iwas alone, I wanted some, some
space for myself to process whathad happened, but he was in the
other room and was there, youknow, on hand if I needed him at
(13:10):
any moment.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
You know what I think I just I think a guide is
important if it's your firsttime because, like I said before
, they're that person who'sgoing to be with you and help
you prepare for like a monthbefore.
They're going to help youreally, like they know and
(13:32):
understand the medicine so wellthat they're going to help you
fully prepare for yourexperience.
They're going to help you withthe diet, they're going to help
you with the protocols, they'regoing to help you every step of
the way and then, the day of,they're there with you and then
after that, they're helping youprocess and integrate and
helping you find guidance.
If they can't help guide you insome type of way with the
(13:54):
integration, and then, once youhave that understanding of what
the process looks like and it'skind of what we did I don't need
a guide anymore.
Yeah, I do need someone to sitwith me though.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, I'm glad you said that Um, because we have a
lot of um.
We have heard a lot of storiesof people who do it and then two
months later they'll do itagain, and two months later
they'll do it again, and twomonths later they'll do it again
where it's like it's reallyimportant to sit with the
(14:31):
medicine for a little while tohelp with integration.
And I think that's where aguide comes in to explain that,
yeah, whereas you've been onthis journey before, so you
already know that that's theintegration piece is is such an
integral, integral yeah, okay,that sounded weird when I said
(14:53):
it a little bit did, but I knewwhat you were saying.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay, I was like an integral part.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, it didn't sound right Integral part of the
process.
Yeah, so you just have to.
Again, if you're going to do atrip sitter, you don't have the
means to a guide or access to aguide.
Understand that that's such avital piece to it.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
It's not the piece that only goes with your first
trip, right?
You should be taking that withevery journey here on out A
hundred percent, and I thinkthat that's why you and I
afterwards were like we don'tneed a guide, right, but I?
But, because we know what thisprocess looks like.
We don't need someone to tellus what, how to surrender to the
(15:39):
medicine, because we'veexperienced it and we know what
that looks like.
Um, we don't need someone tohold our hands Right and we know
, experienced it and we knowwhat that looks like.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
We don't need someone to hold our hands Right and we
know the first time we did Rightand we know that integration is
not like OK, I do A, b, c, d, e.
Yes, integration can bedifferent for each journey,
depending on what you need, butit's being able to sit with
yourself to kind of dissect allpieces of your life, like, all
(16:05):
right, how am I showing up in mymarriage?
How am I showing up as a parent?
How's work, how are the peopleI surround myself with?
What needs to change?
I'm going to start somatictherapy soon.
That's something I've neverdone before and realized that I
really really needed it.
(16:26):
Integration looks verydifferent every single time and
I think it's like I just can'tstress that enough Like being
able to sit with yourself andreally take that introspective
look to see what it is that youneed to integrate.
I just had this thought becauseit never ends.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
It really never ends Like a lot of the integration
process is like the next sixmonths after your journey, Like
and I say the rest of your life.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
True Integration is your entire, like it is
literally your life.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I just had this thought, because you know how
we've done an episode onmicrodosing and with microdosing
it's like you don't feel theeffects, but then we tell people
, like at the end of the day,maybe look back at your day and
see where or how you showed up alittle bit different or where
(17:17):
you may you were triggered, butinstead of respond, reacting,
you responded and you sat withit, like that means it's working
Right, and so with a microdose,it's something that you're
taking like every other day,every two or three days, and
that's the part of the processwith a large journey, I would
(17:37):
almost say because it's a largerjourney and it's a larger scale
at the end of the month sinceyour journey and say what's been
different this month?
How have I showed updifferently?
You know what I'm.
Does that make sense?
What I'm trying to say?
Like I'm trying to like relateit back to the microdosing and
(17:59):
at the end of the day, with,with, with the medicine, it's
like at the end of every monthbecause your second month might
not be so easy, your third monthmight get a little bit harder,
and we tell people this all thetime, but like you might stay in
that mushroom glow or thatmushroom cloud for a little bit
and things might be awesome andgreat.
And we actually just did anepisode with Allie where she had
(18:21):
that experience.
And then life happens, yeah,six months after her journey,
yeah, where it's like, oh shit,now I have to put in the real
work.
Now it's not so rainbows andbutterflies and it's not so
peaceful, and you know, this iswhere the work starts.
So I think when you're doing ajourney, too often you don't
(18:45):
allow yourself that time toreally integrate fully the
experience and let it sit outfor a little bit.
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's.
That's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So my thing was going to be like the difference
between a trip sitter and aguide, um who?
Well, I'm just going to handyou my phone, Um, I think that
one of the important things isthat, no matter who you're with,
if your intention is to do deepwork, you need to be someone
(19:21):
who is with someone who is alsodoing that and who has an
understanding of what doing thework means.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yes, it can't just be your bestie right, it really
can't, and it may not be yourhusband, it may not be your wife
, it may.
So it's again, it's like youhave to use.
If you're going to do a tripcenter, again, we want you to do
it safely, as safely aspossible.
It may not be the personclosest to you which I kind of
(19:50):
want to get into.
Yeah, you know what and when I,when we say like a heroic
journey and you need a tripsitter, I would say like three,
three grams up, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yes, I'm going to let you just kind of go down the
list and I can all like speak oradd, or we can like elaborate
on some of them.
So when choosing someone to sitwith you, these are probably
the things that you want to lookfor in someone.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, okay, so it would.
This isn't always going to bethe case, but it is.
Would be nice if you hadsomebody who was knowledgeable
about the medicine, understoodthe dose, its effects, all of
that, and I'll get into morelater on as to why.
Yeah, ok, because when you do ajourney, you don't know what's
going to come up.
Yeah, and they don't either.
(20:49):
There's no way to predict that.
It's not a black and whitething.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
I should also say there are a lot of tools out
there for people.
One of the things I did beforeI sat with someone for the first
time was there's a book, thePsychedelic Explorer's Guide.
Yes, that kind of teaches youabout each medicine.
So I went to the chapter onpsilocybin and I read every part
(21:19):
of that.
Let it soak in, we'll link itand good idea.
And I didn't.
It's not like necessarily like,and now you know how to guide
people, but I wanted a betterunderstanding of it.
Even though I had already satwith the medicine, I wanted to
be prepared for anything.
So that's important in findingsomeone.
I have talked with peoplebefore who has had their husband
(21:44):
sit with them and their husbandhas never done the medicine.
I've talked with their husbandand said this is what may or may
not come up and this is whatyou should or shouldn't do, and
this is what it means to be insupport of someone on a journey
and you really don't interfere.
(22:04):
So it can be someone, as longas that person is willing to
really dive in and understandwhat it means to be in support
of you with this medicine and beknowledgeable in the best way
that they can be.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, Okay, so some characteristics to look out for,
and again I want to stress thatyou may not have someone who is
every single one of these.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
True.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It may be a hard thing to find.
So, again, using your bestjudgment, let's say who's the
most of these in your life, whochecks the most boxes?
Okay, so you want somebody whois nonjudgmental, um, and
(22:59):
they're able to be curious andinquisitive.
So I guess an example I woulduse is there are a lot of people
who I've told that I did aheroic journey and it has
nothing to do with them, andthey don't even want to hear
(23:20):
about it.
Like they can't hear about itbecause it's against everything
that we got taught.
So it's like they can't evenlike digest what I'm telling
them.
They don't want to.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Don't tell me things I don't want to know.
Probably not the right person.
Definitely not the right person.
What about can I add to that?
Absolutely, keep, like, addwhatever I say.
Okay, let's say, like you feelI'm just going to throw this out
there You're close with yoursister, but your sister is this
like I don't.
I just don't believe in themeta, I just don't believe in
this kind of stuff.
It goes against everything Ibelieve.
(23:50):
But like, okay, fine, I'll sitwith you.
No, yeah, no yeah, because thatenergy is going to show up,
yeah, and you're going to be inyour head that day energetically
thinking like I shouldn't bedoing this.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
So no, yeah, and it doesn't even have to be about
psilocybin no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Give them some homework.
Be like this is what I read,this is what I've watched, this
is what the process is.
You should watch and do thesame things, and I'm going to
take that even back to, likewhat I said in a previous
episode about the what to expect.
When you're expecting justwanting my partner to to know
what I was going through, yeah,that to me is like a big green
(24:57):
flag.
If you're doing this withsomeone and they want to know
more about it in the way thatyou do, a hundred percent.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Um, um, someone who is easygoing.
So do you know those people who?
They are the control freaks.
They have to have a say, theyhave to like, they have to take
over.
Also, not the right person.
(25:29):
You want somebody who again,because what I said earlier, you
don't know what's going to showup for you, you don't know the
emotions you're going to feelduring.
They don't know what's going toshow up for you.
There is a lot ofunpredictability with this.
Yes, you could have the bestjourney of your life and
everything's rainbow andbutterflies, or it could be like
(25:49):
my journey, where it's likehundreds and hundreds of years
of ancestral trauma.
I don't know Dungeons anddragons, I'm not sure you don't
know.
And so somebody who is able tokind of roll with what's going
on and they're not going to tryto control the situation or
(26:09):
control you in this situation.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Can I give such a small example of that?
Yeah, such a small examplewould be of someone not to have
with you is someone who's likeit's okay, don't cry.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Don't cry, which I feel like that's a level of
control.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Right, yeah, like they're uncomfortable with you
crying and they're like you knowit's okay You're, you're on
mushrooms, but you know don'tcry.
Yeah, no, you want someonewho's going to be like it's okay
to cry.
Yeah, let it out.
Yeah, whatever you need to do,let it out.
I'm here to witness and watchand not watch like creepy, not
in a creepy way.
But, like you know, I'm here towitness your healing and and if
(26:55):
you need to jump around andscream, do that.
I'm not going to judge you forfeeling that way.
Like I've sat with people who,like shake uncontrollably and
they're apologizing for it andI'm like you're having a very
somatic experience, Like youremotions are leaving your body
in a in a somatic way, Likedon't apologize for that.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, it's not weird, absolutely At all.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Absolutely yeah.
So basically, be with someonewho's okay with, like, seeing
some weird shit.
Yeah, and there is not going tobe weird about seeing some
weird shit, right.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Right Now we kind of were talking about it with, with
, with Jason, um, how, in thethird journey that you did, he
sat with you the whole time andhe was very attentive.
So attentive so you wantsomebody who is going to like
(27:48):
care for you if you need it.
You basically need a mother.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yes, yes, yes.
Can I explain further on how hewas attentive?
Sure, um, at this point I hadjourneyed solo, solo ish.
When I say solo, I always hadsomebody with me.
But, like at this point, I hadjourneyed solo ish and I
probably wouldn't have asked forhelp.
But he noticed I was strugglingand he straight up was like do
(28:18):
you need any help?
And just hearing that broke medown.
I was like, yeah, I think I do.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And he came over and he sat next to me, but like
having someone to who is awareenough and attentive enough to
see that you're struggling, whocan ask what you need, because
you may not be able toarticulate what you need.
You may not even know thatthat's an option because you're
(28:46):
still in this other world.
You're like wait, I think I doneed a little bit of help.
Yeah, can you just come sitnext to me, or can you hold my
hand, or can you turn the lightson, or can you change the music
, so someone who can notice thatyou're being, that you're a
little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I'm going to add to that.
Go for it.
This is so small but it's notSomeone who would be willing to
help you go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Like who do you feel comfortable and who do you have
trust and faith, knowing theywill help you go to the bathroom
?
I Because you Would not haveeven thought of that May need
help going to the bathroom.
Well, I'm saying that they'regoing to have to wipe your ass,
but you just need you know youmight, it might, you might and
you might just need help walkingto the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I think a good thing to ask is they might not ever
need to wipe your ass, but wouldyou feel comfortable if they
did wait?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So would you wipe my ass if I needed it?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I probably would in that setting.
Yeah, I really probably would.
I would too, but I wouldprobably like also I don't
something I don't think a lot ofpeople know is that, like
psilocybin, is also a diuretic,so it can make you want to shit
or puke.
Okay, puking, that's anotherthing you might throw up.
Have someone with you who's notgoing to be grossed out by you
(30:16):
puking and who's going to cleanit up and be like oh my gosh,
don't worry about it, it happens.
Yeah, because that could happen.
You might pee your pants, youmight not, but if someone sees
you struggling and they're likeare you okay, do you need
anything?
You're going to be like I thinkI need to pee, yeah, and they
can hold your hand to thebathroom.
(30:37):
Which side note, yeah, thediuretic.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
That is why we fast the day of yeah, so just keep
that in mind.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, what goes?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
in must come out.
I mean not always.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
It's not ayahuasca true I will just say I have not
well, I just tell people, orshat I recommend fasting of
psilocybin, true, and but Ialways recommend fasting because
it's like you will get nauseousand if you have stuff sitting
in your stomach, it's gonna comeup.
It's probably gonna come up.
It's probably going to come up.
So, if you want to eat, makesure you're okay with it coming
(31:13):
back up.
Yeah, yeah, because it'sprobably going to happen.
Yes, okay, keep going.
Sorry, Okay.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So we we talked about how, again, you can have this
beautiful, everything'sbeautiful type journey, but also
you can have something that'sreally really hard or
challenging.
You want someone who is calm inthat sense and somebody who is
(31:43):
not just going to react and isnot just going to be impulsive
to go do something.
They're able to kind of take abreath.
They're.
They're able to maybe handle alittle bit of pressure.
They, they handle pressure alittle well.
Um, and we have said we don'thand handle pressure well, but
not in this situation, becausewe know and we're more
(32:06):
comfortable, we know that thisis kind of how the process is
supposed to go.
But somebody who is, if you'rehaving a hard time, they're like
, okay, I'm gonna take you tothe hospital or I'm gonna call
the cops or I'm going to youknow what I mean.
They're going to freak out andyou're going to feel that yeah,
you want somebody who is alittle calm, level-headed.
They're not just going to react, they're going to think and sit
(32:27):
with it for a second.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Well, let me give a little bit of an example of that
Like.
So, sometimes people can getcaught in loops, and that is a
natural thing.
It can happen.
Have you ever been caught inone?
I feel like we've talked aboutthis, maybe not.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
No, I have not Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
They're terrifying because you, before you go into
an experience, know that you'regoing to be in and out within
you know six to eight hours andif you get caught in a loop,
that feels like an eternity.
It feels like you're nevergoing to get out of it.
It feels like this is the waythat you're going to be for the
rest of your life, and Ishouldn't have done it.
(33:03):
I'm the one that they werewarning me about it.
Fucked with my like.
Now I'm in.
Now I'm in psychosispermanently, like it'll fuck
with you if you get stuck in aloop and being with someone who
is who knows that that's apossibility can kind of hold
your hand through that and sayyou're not like this.
It's not going to stay like thisforever.
You're on mushrooms right now.
(33:23):
You're going to stay like thisforever.
You're on mushrooms right now.
You're going to come out of it.
It's going to take a little bit, but you're going to be fine,
instead of someone who's goingto freak out and be like, oh my
god, yeah, what if you're inpsychosis?
Oh shit, I don't know what todo with this, oh my god, we
fucked up right, right, youwould fuck up.
you would be so fucked up ifsomeone was telling you that
that was supposed to be likesitting with you.
(33:45):
Yeah, that would really fuckwith your head.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Oh, 100%, 100%.
Okay, here's another one.
Okay.
So you, for example, okay, youare someone that I can talk to
about deep, dark things.
I've been talking to you aboutmother wounds, father wounds,
(34:10):
past trauma, all this heavystuff that is oftentimes hard
for us to talk about.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Especially when talking to the wrong person
Sometimes even our closestfriends.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
It's hard to do.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Oh God, yeah, 100%.
But on the other hand and Ithink people can see from
listening to us on the podcastor seeing our content I also
have a lot of fun with you.
We can joke, we can laugh, wecan be silly.
I think both are essential.
You want someone who can doboth, because I've had two
(34:48):
journeys now where ancestralstuff came up.
First one, I came out, I wassmiling, I was grinning from ear
to ear.
I was like I was like that wasamazing and we were like
laughing about it and likeamazing.
And we were like laughing aboutit and like it was happy and
all was good.
Well, you weren't there for theother one, but that one was.
(35:14):
It was really challenging andit was hard and it was dark, um,
and I was able to talk to youabout both and I felt safe doing
so and I think finding someonewho can hold space for all of it
is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
That's a really good point.
I'm going to rewind it a littlebit about like the being calm
or something.
We've said this before, but Ithink a big part of being a
guide or a trip sitter islending someone your calm
nervous system.
That's a huge piece of beingable to sit with someone and
(35:54):
remaining calm in their chaos iscan you remain a calm nervous
system so when they're freakingout, they can feed off of your
calm energy, because if youfreak out, they're going to
freak out even more yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, the person that you'rethinking of sitting with you how
do they handle their home,their own life?
Do they suppress their emotions?
Do they um not takeaccountability?
Do they um project onto otherpeople?
(36:37):
Do they?
Are they kind of like what yousaid?
Are they doing the work?
Are they doing the work?
I don't want someone to sit forme who doesn't do the work,
doesn't take accountability fortheir actions, doesn't do any
type of introspective work, umprojects their wounds,
(37:08):
suppresses their emotion.
Anger is not a valid feeling.
To feel like you know that's.
I don't want that.
So it's like the person who youwant to sit with you.
How do they live their life?
Yeah, is it a life where, like,they're on their own healing
journey?
Or is it a life where theyavoid all of those things,
because those things are hard, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I really like that you're saying this, because
sometimes I think people arelike well, what does it matter
if they're just sitting with mefor a few hours?
Energy baby, that matters somuch.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh God, yeah, so much Because, again, let's say,
something comes up and you're,you're you're not like in the
depths of it, but you, you comeout of it, you're still a little
, still a little loopy and youwant to talk about it.
How are they going to show upfor you in that moment?
What advice are they going togive you?
Right, if they're not doing thework themselves?
(38:01):
I'd be like your advice sucksRight Like hell.
No, yeah, no.
So it's like, think about thatperson and how they are living
their life.
That's a big one, that's a hugeone.
(38:21):
Okay, another thing you comeout of it.
You may want to talk for hours,you may not shut the hell up
about what just happened.
I feel like that happens a lotTotally.
And, yes, you want someone totalk, but I've done journeys.
You know there's I've donejourneys where I've sat with
people and they come out of itand I have no idea what happened
(38:45):
.
I have no idea what theyexperienced.
I have no idea any details ofit.
Yeah, that is also okay,because it's not my journey,
it's theirs.
So is that person okay with,like you holding on to it for a
(39:06):
little bit and you keeping it toyourself?
Like, are they comfortable if,like you're, like I don't feel
like talking about it, or youjust don't say anything at all I
usually that is something Iwill tell someone's spouse.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, when they are like coming home from a journey,
like, don't ask too manyquestions, they will share when
they're ready to share.
Don't get upset if they can'texplain it, because their mind
and their body are playing alittle bit of catch up right now
and you putting pressure onthem to share their experiences
(39:44):
is only gonna make it harder forthem to share their experiences
, is only going to make itharder for them to share.
Yeah, so yeah, that goes withthe trip sitter too.
Like a lot of times people comeout of it and I don't know what
they experienced, but we'restill talking for hours.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, my last journey .
I didn't tell Tony any details.
For a long time we sat insilence and he was okay with
that.
I love that, because talkingwas not what I needed at the
moment, but to me he held spacefor me to be able to just sit in
(40:18):
silence and still be, it beokay.
And and then, when I was ready,then I started to talk about it
more.
Yeah, so somebody who is aboutit more.
Yeah, so somebody who is okaywith that.
Yeah, this is a good one.
Okay, someone who isemotionally intelligent, that's
a hard one.
That is a hard one.
(40:39):
I did not.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Literally.
Up until a few years ago, Iused to always say like I'm not
book smart, but I'm street smart, and I did not realize what I
was trying to say was.
I am emotionally intelligent.
I am not IQ smart.
Yeah yeah, but I didn't knowthere was a difference.
And it's like now that I'vewatched a few TED Talks on it
about the importance ofemotional intelligence and why
(41:04):
it's more important than IQ, andI'm like, holy shit.
I've had some conversationswith people who are IQ smart but
not very emotionallyintelligent and it is hard.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know emotional
intelligence and being able to,like hold space for yourself,
hold space for other people.
Um, again, going back to oh,like no, no, no, no, Don't cry.
(41:40):
Oh no, no, no, no, don't don'tbe mad, don't feel sad, don't
feel sad, don't feel angry whereit's like no, I shouldn't feel
mad.
Yeah, an emotionallyintelligent person is going to
be able to hold space for all ofthose things, because it it's
they're comfortable with theirown expression of emotions.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yes, yes, yeah, I used to, not too long ago, get
very upset with my husbandbecause he could not hold space
for my emotions, and it wasbecause he wasn't able to hold
space for his.
Yeah, and have you ever heardthat word Like if you are with
someone who's emotionallyunavailable, it's not because
(42:23):
they're emotionally unavailableto you, it's because they are
unemotionally available tothemselves.
They do not know how to holdspace and express their emotions
, so they don't, and so whensomeone else does, it makes them
very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
I've dated a lot of men who struggled if I felt sad
about something, if I was angryabout something, but they missed
out, because Tony allows me tofeel the depths of sadness and
(43:05):
grief and frustration and angeralso.
On the other end, there's deeplove, there's deep peace,
there's happiness, like.
I feel this because and I alsoget to feel this Mm-hmm and both
are necessary and important.
(43:27):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
I like that one Emotionally intelligent.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
I do too.
Okay, here's another one.
Who is someone that you feelcomfortable with?
That you feel comfortable with.
(43:54):
You went camping with them, oryou're out in the woods or in
the forest or whatever, and youwould be okay with that person
for a week or two.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's a hard one.
That is a hard one.
Let me tell you why.
There are people that I havevacationed with, but then I
retreat back to my little roomto take a little break from
peopling with the people and Ialso am like okay, that was a
(44:26):
lot.
I come home and I want todecompress, I want to take
another vacation from the peopleI just vacationed with.
So I think it would need to besomeone that, like you, can
vacation with for two weekswithout wanting the breaks and
without feeling like you have to.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yeah.
You're so patient after you'reyou're really right, cause there
have been trips.
I've gone on where I'm like ohmy God, this person is
exhausting.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yes, and you get the energies just don't match up.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah, they just don't align, and that's okay, it's
not, but it's almost like well,it's vacation, it's like we're
hanging out you know in the past, drinking, doing this, whatever
and then you go back to yourroom.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I guess what I mean is I have a thought Okay,
someone you can be with for twoweeks without your mask on, oh,
so good.
Because those kinds ofvacations are very different,
(45:36):
where you feel seen, fully seenby the people that you're
surrounding yourself with.
So that's why I'm like that.
When you showed me thatquestion, I was like we can
elaborate, and that's why Ithink it's important to
elaborate, like going onvacation with someone with a
family member, or like you guyshave been friends for a long
(45:58):
time, like that's very differentthan going on vacation with
someone where you can fullyunmask.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And be your authentic self, yeah, self where you
don't have to put the mask onfor anybody, right, yeah,
there's a difference, absolutely.
So what if it's like who youcan vacation, who you can put
your mask away with for twoweeks?
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yes, put your mask away with two weeks.
I love that.
I love that because, becausethat is so true, because you
know like, again, using you asan example, I feel like I can be
myself.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Be your weird batty self.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
But like, yes, you see goofy, you see silly, you
see funny, but also you see deepand you see, you know strong
emotions that feel and anddarkness that I feel, like y'all
think we're weird.
Now you should hear us when themics aren't on I know like we
have some weird fuckingconversation, yeah I literally
(46:56):
did mvma and I was talking thewhole time and this past weekend
and I out loud, I'm like, oh myGod, I sound so fucking weird
right now and I knew that.
But again, the person who I waswith, it was OK, it was OK.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
The thoughts that are coming out.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I'm like I'm speaking my thoughts and I don't know
how OK they are.
They sound fucking weird.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Two years ago I'd been like weird oh, and now you
embrace your weird exactly.
I'm like yeah a vacation withsomeone who is okay with you
being your fucking weird self.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Okay, and I'm just gonna say why there was.
I was doing MDMA and I wasoutside, and there was, I was
doing MDMA and I was outside and, um, there was a moth, a
beautiful moth, and you have athing with moths.
I never had a thing with moths.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
You didn't understand my thing.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Well, you know what I probably didn't have a thing
with moths because I didn'tnotice.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't, and maybeI wasn't ready to notice.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Exactly.
The teacher comes when thestudent is ready.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
And so this, this, this little, this moth, comes
and sits like like literallyright next to me and I'm like,
hi, dad, that must be my dad.
And I was like it's my dad, ortony, it's your mom or your dad.
And I was like you know whichone is it?
And I'm like if I were sayingthat to some random fucking dude
(48:36):
, chick, whatever, they'd belike mental health hospital, um,
I'm, I'm going to need to,christine, I'm going to need to
send her in.
Yeah, it's a moth where he waslike oh yeah, maybe I bet, cause
I bet I bet it's your dad,cause I and again I was talking
(49:00):
about family things, yeah and soI was like oh my God, it's my
dad holding space for me whileI'm talking about it.
I don't think that's weird atall.
Thanks, moth Dad.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Well, now it's getting weird.
I love our relationship now.
Now, every time you see me, heyDad, hey Dad, oh shit.
And if you are a new listener,dad is dead not that that's
funny.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
No, it's not.
Oh, it's the moth.
It's that.
I think he's a moth, right,that's what's funny.
Yes, yes, but I, and, but, I,and I, I, I really do think he's
, I really thought he probablywas.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I know, I'm not even saying he probably was, that was
your dad.
It was, that was your dad, hewas literally holding space for
me.
How many people.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Can you say that to Exactly my point, Exactly who
can you tell that to whenthey're like?
Okay, I'm going to leave now.
I feel uncomfortable becauseshe needs to be medicated.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Okay, so I want to really quickly go into why I
don't recommend doing solo, evenif you're experienced.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
And what I mean by that is exactly like the way
that you and I have said, likewe'll do it solo, but there's
always someone with us whounderstands.
And I do think we're very Idon't want to say lucky or
blessed, but I think it's aprivilege that we have two
(50:40):
partners who are in this spacewith us, because I recognize
that not everybody has that, orsometimes it's like your partner
that you're trying to heal from, but just sometimes having them
in this in the area, and theyalso understand the medicine, to
know that like, oh, she's goingto need help.
When she's done, I'm going tobe there for them to help them.
(51:04):
Help when she's done, I'm goingto be there for them to help
them.
So those little things likemake a big difference.
I, the few times, the one timethat I was like completely by
myself in my house all alone,you thought you were going to
die.
I thought I was dying.
Yeah, I really did.
I can't imagine being in thatheadspace right the entire time
(51:26):
and feeling like I have no oneto reach out to and no one to
support.
So I feel like, at the veryfucking least, the very least,
have someone know what you'redoing.
Like, again, I'm gonna, I'mgonna reiterate and I'm gonna
say this again I don't recommenddoing it solo.
Yeah, 100 by yourself.
I really don't.
But if you'm going to say thisagain, I don't recommend doing
it solo.
(51:46):
Yeah, 100% by yourself.
I really don't.
But if you are going to be thatperson, at the very least have
someone on standby, can we?
Speaker 1 (51:53):
also talk about um, just in case, if you need it.
Fireside project Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Okay, what are they?
The fireside Project is anonprofit, free organization who
offers support 24-7 to anyonewho is experiencing a
challenging psychedelicexperience, and you can text or
call them.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and isn't the numberliterally just Fireside Project?
Is that what you're trying todo and you couldn't get into?
Speaker 2 (52:23):
my phone, literally Okay, because I was trying to
find the number.
Literally just Fireside Project.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Is that what you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (52:24):
and you couldn't get into my phone, literally Okay.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Because I was trying to find the number.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
The Fireside Project.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
I think it's literally Fireside Project or
it's Fireside, it's something.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Yeah, it's a psychedelic support line that
provides emotional supportduring and after you call or
text 6 to Fireside.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
OK 6 to Fireside.
I was like I knew it hadsomething with Fireside.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
And I was wrong.
They used to be 24 hours.
Now it says open every day 11am to 11 pm.
Ok, that's still pretty good soyou can call or text someone.
Oh, I really like their wholewebsite.
They've changed.
They've changed and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
They've evolved and we love it.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
This literally on their website front page.
Don't go solo I love that Donot journey at a moderate to
high dose without a sober friendnearby who can provide a
supportive grounding presence.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
God we're so good.
Look at us.
Just what we said.
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought, not me,not me.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
On that note.
On that note I really thinklisten again.
We are not meant to do lifesolo.
We're not.
So at the very least, have alittle bit of support.
Have a trip sitter with you whoknows what they're doing.
If it can't be a guide, have asitter yeah can't be a sitter.
(53:58):
Have a friend who checks asmany of those boxes.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
yeah, and if you um this episode was beneficial to
you or it could be beneficial tosomeone you know who is
interested in the space, send itto them please, cause I feel
like this is very informative.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
All right, all right, let's wrap it up.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
All of our listeners hope you're being safe.
Be open, stay curious, we'llsee you on the other side.
Bye, always different.
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