82 | Bridging Ancient Wisdom with Modern Psychedelics (with Azalea Montaño-Kemp) - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're silly Like a kid.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
I get so excited for these interviews because I feel
like each interview is like justI learned so much.
It's great integration for usand I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Can I say what we were saying earlier?
Yeah, like when we found outyour age, I want to say like the
thing that popped in my headwas like age is nothing but a
number.
Because immediately we werelike and she's only in her 20s,
I feel not intimidated, butwhere you are, I could not have

(00:36):
imagined being in my 20s or evenmy 30s.
It took me into my well, I'm 40now, but it took me a long time
to get to where it sounds likeyou have been for quite a while.
So it's very commendable.
And I'm like, oh my God, we'renot in the presence of a 20
something year old.
We're like in the presence oflike wisdom.

(00:58):
We're in the presence of amedicine woman.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
So, literally, our best behavior.
We're in the presence of amedicine woman.
Literally, we need to get ourbest behavior, I know?
Okay.
So, azalea, welcome to See onthe Other Side.
We are so excited to have youon.
You emailed us I think twoyears ago and I remember this

(01:25):
vividly.
The second I saw your email, Itook a screenshot of it, sent it
to Leah and I'm like I have toemail her back.
She sounds incredible.
And I emailed you back and Iwas like I think verbatim, what
I said was I don't mean to soundweird, but I feel like I'm

(01:47):
already obsessed with you and Ididn't hear back and I was so
sad and I think I tried emailingyou again just recently and we
figured out that you didn'treceive my email.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, and I was so sad, I was so sad.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
So Christine is in charge of like booking and I
remember every time I would seea new name on the on our
schedule, I'd be like is thisthat girl?
And she was like no.
She never responded and I'mlike dang it.
Oh, I've said that a couple oftimes.
I was like is this the one?
Yeah, so we are honored to haveyou.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
We are very excited.
One of the things that you saidin your email is that you
consider yourself a modern daymedicine woman.
Can you kind of elaborate onjust who you are and what you're
doing in this space now andwhat that means?

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Oh yeah, definitely yeah, and I'm so happy to be
here.
Thank you for having me.
I mean, I felt the same.
I sent the application and Iwas so sad not to hear back, so
I'm really glad that it allworked out and we found each
other in the right timing.
But yeah, this whole modern daymedicine woman thing, I hold
like really old and ancienttraditions of curanderismo,

(03:19):
which is healing with plantmedicines, and specifically I'm
Mexican and working in a lineagewhere I hold traditional
mushroom ceremonies and theseare very, very ancient practices
that date back to our ancestorsthousands and thousands of
years ago.
But at the same time I am Gen Zand I just like have a fun

(03:41):
little life of my own, you know.
So I just always look for waysto kind of like integrate that
ancient medicine work into themodern age.
For example, microdosing islike a really beautiful way to
do that, because microdosing isa super ancient practice that
has been done in indigenouscommunities for a long time too.
But now that it's coming intothe scope of the modern world

(04:05):
and we have like the Fatimansprotocol, which is still new,
and things like that, I reallylike to find ways to still
integrate the ancient ways ofbeing with this medicine and
making microdosing kind of likean offering to the path of life
instead of just a pill that weconsume.
So this is just kind of like areally easy explanation of how I
try to integrate those worldsand sort of walk that path just

(04:45):
a pill you take.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
This isn't a replacement for your
antidepressants.
This isn't a replacement foryour anti-anxiety medications.
There is like a practice andyou can't it's not easy to
explain to someone who doesn'tunderstand that like there's
like a ceremonial thing to it orlike a sacred practice to it.
So, yeah, I love that, becauseI would like to know how to

(05:06):
incorporate that more into mypractices, into my microdosing
protocols and also into justwhen I commune with medicine in
general, like how can we do thisand also hold space for the
indigenous practices of thismedicine?
It's not a new, modern thingand everybody thinks it's new

(05:29):
and modern and it's not.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, and part of the reason that I was so excited
when I found y'all and Ioriginally reached out is
because I really loved that yourpodcast was one of the few like
psychedelic therapy orpsychedelic therapy adjacent
podcasts where you talk aboutlike the fun of taking these
medicines, you know, and howthese recreational experiences
can be really therapeutic aswell.

(05:53):
And, just having my backgroundand my training, I'm really
passionate about likedecolonization, education and I
think that that's a really bigpart of like decolonizing even
the modern therapy model.
But decolonizing psilocybin aswe see it today, like this
medicine, is also for us to playwith the spirit of it and to
hear both of you just like speakabout that all the time was

(06:16):
really exciting.
And a lot of people you know,they know my background and they
see my work they think that I'mgoing to be this really black
and white shaman or whatever.
They start to place labels onme and they think that I'm going
to be really opposed to evenmicrodosing.
But I don't think that's reallya part of it.
You know, the shamanism or thepractice of curanderismo doesn't
need to be strict.
It's a practice of being indeep relationship to plants and

(06:39):
plant spirits and a lot of thatis play.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
That's huge.
We get a lot of like.
Sometimes we get pushback onour TikTok for being playful
about it and they're like thisis serious work and I think
we're funny with and withoutthat, and so why would we
pretend to be serious when we'retalking about something like?

(07:06):
When?
We're not serious all the timeanyway, Right.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
And it's both yes, yes, well, we're both like we're
.
We're a lot of things like, yes, I can be deep, we were, you
know, we were just talking aboutit before we started recording.
Yes, I can be deep and havethese intense conversations and
carry grief and anger and allthese things, but also I can be
really goofy and I can laugh andI cannot take myself too

(07:34):
seriously and love to jokearound, like you know, putting
ourselves or labeling ourselveslike we have to be one thing or
the other.
Same thing with this medicine,right, all of the things.
Same thing with this medicine,right, All of the things.
So, yes, yes, can I ask you,did you grow up with this around

(07:54):
you, or how did you kind of getinto this space?

Speaker 3 (08:01):
So I didn't grow up with psilocybin practices
specifically but, like I said,my mom's side of the family is
Mexican and they're indigenous,so I grew up with a lot of
curanerismo and herbalism in thehome and just like natural ways
of healing, and I was alsoraised Christian.
But my parents did a reallybeautiful job of always making

(08:22):
this even religious practiceabout like prayers into the
earth and about connecting tocreation.
So a lot of like the sort ofconcepts of how I raised were
there.
And then, as I got older, Iwent into my own journey with
mental health.
I was depressed for as long asI can remember.
I had PTSD since I was a child.

(08:42):
I was anorexic for many years.
I used to be a professionaldancer, actually.
So there's just a lot of thingscoming into the color of my life
that we're adding to this inaddition to just general
childhood trauma and that sortof stuff, and I had been doing
lots of meditation, yoga,mindfulness.

(09:03):
I was in regular therapy formany, many years and it was all
really supportive and helpful.
But things just got to a pointwhere I felt like I needed to
take antidepressants orsomething.
I needed some support.
But being raised in this moretraditional way, really
connected to the earth.
I was always encouraged to justnot take medications and try to

(09:24):
find my own healing naturally.
So I just did some really deepresearch on, like you know,
natural supplements or whateverinstead of SSRIs.
And I actually came across aReddit thread for ayahuasca, as
many people do, and I had nevertaken a psychedelic but I was
like, yeah for sure.

(09:44):
I mean I knew we used to havepeyote in the home.
That was another part of, likemy family, but as a kid I never
thought about it.
It was just like the cactus onthe table.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
So like Took it as like nobody took the peyote.
It was just kind of in yourhome as a plant, I guess.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
As a plant, but as medicine as well, like if
somebody was sick they wouldtake a little bit, or often,
like working with the spirit,like if somebody I don't know,
if one of my cousins fell offtheir scooter then my grandpa
would like rub the peyote oil onhim, like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
I mean, I love that, I had no idea.
Okay, that's really cool.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it has so many medicinal uses,
yeah, but I found this sort oflike Reddit thread about
ayahuasca and, again, nopsychedelic experience.
But I was like this feels likesomething for me.
It's done in ritual.
You go visit a tribe or a clanand you sit in the ceremony.
Done in ritual.
You go visit a tribe or a clanand you sit in the ceremony.

(10:49):
So I booked my experience andthen, about a week before I was
supposed to go, it got canceledand I was really upset because I
had spent like months evenpreparing with my therapist,
right Like on the dieta.
And then I just reached out toone of my close friends who I
know takes a lot of psychedelics, and I just told her like I
don't know, maybe I should justlike take mushrooms, like I know
it's not going to be the same,but I think it could be fun and

(11:10):
I'm in a good mindset, I'm onthis diet.
And she was like yes, likeyou're going to love them, this
is perfect for you right now.
And we were just going to liketake mushrooms in my house and
like have a good time, and I'vetaken edibles many times, so I
thought it was just going tolike laugh and you know that was
it.
But I had this huge experienceof, you know, just coming to

(11:31):
terms with, like, all of thesethings I had been working on in
therapy and meditation andmindfulness practices, like
coming to fruition during thisexperience with mushrooms my
mind was like what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Can you elaborate on that?

Speaker 3 (11:44):
Like I had spent years just working with specific
traumas that I had been goingthrough in therapy, but I still
felt like deep symptoms ofdepression and when I had the
psilocybin experience, it wasalmost like somebody flipped a
switch and was like you did thework, you can release this,
you're good, and I just feltlike my depression had slipped

(12:07):
away like straight up it justleft.
So, it wasn't?

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Oh, go ahead, sorry, no, no, go ahead.
Um, I was just going to say so.
After this experience, were youlike, oh, wow, like I feel such
a connection to this, like whatelse is out there?

Speaker 3 (12:24):
oh, wow, like I feel such a connection to this, like
what else is out there A littlebit.
But it was during theexperience that I had that
reconnection to like lineage andto this practice.
Because while I had kind ofentered the experience with this
like flipping of switches in mybrain, I also just had this
experience of like plants andtrees coming out of the walls

(12:45):
and like wrapping themselvesaround me, vines wrapping around
me and the mother earth likecradling me like a baby and I
kept hearing these likeinvitation into a path of
shamanism and at the time Ididn't even know what a shaman
was.
I remember like Googling itafter this experience, like what
is a shaman?

(13:05):
And I was just like like Icould literally hear and feel
the earth speaking to me andasking me to engage in this path
, and I didn't know what itmeant, but it felt really,
really true in my heart.
So after that experience I waslike, okay, well, if I tell

(13:28):
people about this, I thinkthey're gonna think I'm crazy.
But months later I'm like nomedicine at all, I haven't taken
anything, and I'm at the parkand like trees are talking to me
and they're like telling me tocome work with mushrooms and
like to come to Oaxacaspecifically, and it was just
like such a, such a surrealexperience.
But I knew that I hadexperienced such deep healing

(13:48):
and the healing was like solong-term.
You know, I didn't feeldepressed for so long after that
.
So I dove really deep into theresearch side to see like, okay,
what really happened, like whatwas happening in my brain I was
studying psychology at the timetoo, so really thinking about,
like, if you know, parts work,internal family systems, like
what parts were activated,what's going on with my parts

(14:10):
right now, the different partsof my psyche and I just went
like straight into theintellectualization of it to
learn what happened, at the sametime feeling this spiritual
calling.
So finally, six like six monthslater, I go to drink ayahuasca
in Peru with the Shipibo shamansand all of my ayahuasca

(14:32):
experiences were very muchasking me to work with mushrooms
.
It was just like mushroomexperience.
I felt the mushroom spirit inthe room and I spoke to one of
the teachers at the center thatI went to and he told me that my
Mexican ancestors were cominginto the ceremony and asking me

(14:53):
to like reopen our lineage withmushrooms.
So then he and some of theother teachers in the center
connected me with teachers inOaxaca who still hold these
ancient mushroom traditions, andthen I went into a path of
going into these communities,being a part of the community
being initiated learning thetraditional ways and also a path

(15:13):
of like relearning what wasinside of me or even the things
that I was around as a littlegirl that I had to reconnect to.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Wow, when?
How long ago was this when allof this happened?

Speaker 3 (15:27):
This was, let's see, yeah, this was about four years
ago.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Wow, I mean, did you ever in a million years think
you would like a Reddit threadwould take you down Like you're?
Like, wait a minute, that's notwhat I was expecting.
I was just trying to heal somestuff and I accidentally ended
up a shaman, literally.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
And so you apprentice under and correct me if I say
it wrong Mazatec shamans underMaria Sabina's lineage.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Right, so this is the town that Maria Sabina comes
from and I'm not specificallyunder her family, but the same
lineage, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Can you share with our listeners who Maria Sabina
is?

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yes, of course.
So Maria Sabina was thisindigenous Mexican woman,
mazatec.
So Maria Sabina was thisindigenous Mexican woman,
mazatec.
She lived in the mountains ofOaxaca and she worked with
psilocybin mushrooms, butspecifically she was a mushroom
healer.
So a lot of people in thiscommunity don't often use
mushrooms for divination orspiritual experience.
They usually take mushroomswhen they're sick, like

(16:41):
physically.
If you're physically sick, yougo to see a mushroom doctor or
curandera and she helps you toheal with mushrooms.
So Maria Sabina was a curandera.
And eventually there was like aWestern New York banker, gordon
Wasson, who heard about thesemagical mushrooms you could find

(17:02):
in the mountains of Mexico andhe went into Mexico searching
for these mushrooms and hecouldn't find them.
And eventually he got led toOaxaca and even so the Mazatec
people would not share with himbecause they had to hide a lot
of their traditions duringcolonization.
So a lot of people wereskeptical about sharing with
people, not just foreigners, butanybody who wasn't of

(17:24):
indigenous blood or Mazatecblood at that time.
So eventually Gordon Watsonjust kept going back to Huautla,
this village, trying to findsomebody who would take him in.
And the story goes that he raninto Maria Sabina at the market
and told her that his son wasreally sick.
A lot of people don't know ifthat was true or not, or if he

(17:45):
was just trying to kind of like,get the ceremony, yeah.
So.
So she took him in anyways andjust told him not to share with
anybody her name or the locationof this ceremony, and of course
he had a huge experience, thenwent home to New York, wrote
about it in Life magazine orsomething, and everybody started

(18:08):
flooding to Oaxaca to try themagic mushroom that he wrote
about, because at this timepeople didn't have an
understanding that thesemushrooms actually just grow
anywhere or you can grow themyourself in a shoebox if you
wanted to.
So everybody was traveling tothis town, huautla de Jimenez,
to seek out mushroom shamans andhave this experience.

(18:29):
And this was all in 1955.
So this was like really thestart of that big psychedelic
boom that we saw in the West.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and we just did an episode on that.
but like the LSD psychedelic,like boom and it's all
intertwined, like it all kind ofhappened around the same time.
So it's interesting that youwere talking about like the
being playful and serious side,because we literally had a
conversation about that too, how, when LSD was a thing like,

(19:00):
there was the you know West whowas trying to be playful and,
you know, just have fun with it,and then the East was like, no,
this is a sacred practice andyou have to be serious and this
is a spiritual experience andit's not fun and it's like
somewhere along the middlesomewhere in the middle people

(19:20):
were like this can be both Right.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, and you see issues with each side right,
like there's harm to being tooserious and there's harm to
being too playful.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, yeah there.
You know, even I have friendsor friends who only do it
recreationally and I'm like, oh,you would get, yeah, there's so
much you could work through ifyou you did this with the
intention of healing.
But then also it's like, yeah,but it is really fun too
sometimes, and it can be bothand I love that.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah.
So how can Indigenousspirituality and philosophy also
be great for harm reduction forpeople?

Speaker 3 (20:10):
That's such a good question, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I also have some Westernpsychology background, and
specifically in usingpsychedelics to treat substance
abuse issues.
Abstinence only doesn't workfor everybody and a lot of

(20:40):
people who are on that path tosobriety in the past have not
looked at psychedelics becausethey've seen them as drugs.
And we're in this space nowwhere people are more open to
working with psychedelics, whichare drugs, which are substances
to get away from othersubstances, and the key to
really making that work islooking at someone's
relationship to what they areconsuming.
And that is like a very ancientindigenous practice, like you

(21:05):
cannot go into mushroom ceremonywithout creating or opening a
relationship between yourselfand the land that you're going
to be consuming on yourself andthe lands that the mushrooms
came from, yourself and themushrooms, the mushroom spirit,
you know.
And a lot of this work in theharm reduction specifically for
addiction is like helpingsomebody understand what their
relationship to these differentsubstances is like.

(21:25):
Right, the abusive relationship, of course, is easy to identify
how they're abusing a substance, but when they introduce a new
substance, be it mushrooms,ketamine, et cetera, to try to
get away from these othersubstances and to find healing,
they have to create a newrelationship to that substance
they have to think about insteadof something that they're
consuming.
How are they engaging with thissubstance, and how are they

(21:48):
working with, in the case ofmushrooms?
How are they working with thisplant spirit to assist them on
their journey of sobriety or toassist them on their healing
journey, rather than seeing itas a substance or a pill that
they take?

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Do you find it's hard to um for some people to
understand like this language oflike energies and the spiritual
practice of things Like I don'tknow I'm?
I'm saying that because I feellike when my husband first
started on this journey and hewas an addict, like if I were to
say like it's the energy youput into it or like the

(22:25):
spiritual, he'd be like get thefuck out of here, right, right,
I don't understand what you'retalking about.
That's bullshit.
Very different now, but I thinka lot of people resist that
type of language and I think oursociety has a lot to do with
that.
But but how can you walksomeone into that without

(22:47):
scaring them away?

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Right, right, yeah, and that's a lot of part of the
work that I do.
And like going back to thismodern medicine woman, it's like
I know the language that I useto relate to these things, but I
changed these words dependingon who I talk to.
So you know, right now I usethe word plant spirit because
I'm talking to y'all.
I feel comfortable here sayingthat.
But typically whenever I openup a conversation with somebody,

(23:12):
I offer them like vocabularyand ask them what they would
like to use.
So, instead of like plantspirit, we can use plant energy,
uh, plant vibration, plant ally, like ways for them to really
start to personalize the plantinstead of seeing it as a drug
or a substance again.
Um, but yeah, it really doesn'tmatter what word somebody is

(23:34):
using.
It matters how they connect.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Very good the language they speak.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, yeah, no, and I I you know, to elaborate on
Leah like I feel like I will saythings to people and they're
like I'm, I'm not understandingwhat any of that means because
of just how we have grown up,how we're conditioned Again, the
thought of like I'm taking thispill and it's treating this
symptom like thinking of thingson a much, much deeper and more

(24:05):
profound level.
Right, and that's.
It depends, yeah, it depends onthe audience, and sometimes I
don't know my audience.
I'm not a shaman.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
Yeah, but it's all about just like asking people
and like, right, it's aconversation.
I don't go up to people andjust say like you need to be
talking to the plant spirit,like we see where they are, we,
we meet each other where we'reat, and there's also like a or
at least you know most peoplethat find me are interested in
that more traditional aspect.
So there's usually a base ofthe holistic understanding of

(24:38):
holistic medicines that are noteven psychedelic, right, like
just the concept of.
I know that meditation issupportive to me.
Maybe I don't know why.
I know that yoga really helpsmy body relax.
I know that a tea over twomonths, healing like the root of
something, is going to be a lotbetter than a medication over
two weeks.
You know, like there's kind ofa base of understanding there,

(25:01):
but it's definitely liketeaching moments and learning
moments.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yes, yes, definitely, definitely.
Now you oh, I feel like youwear a lot of different hats,
and you are.
You also work with theMicrodosing Institute.
What do you do for them?

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Oh, I just help them sort of integrate like the
indigenous practices or theMazatec history specifically
into their microdosing cohorts.
So they do these like six weekcohorts where people come on and
learn how to microdose and ofcourse they're really based in
like research and science sopeople get to learn all of that
and then I get to teach peoplethe indigenous history as well

(25:48):
as offer them pathways intoreally integrating that into
their microdosing protocol ifthey choose.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
I love that too choose.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
I love that too.
I love that too.
You're like booming withquestions.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
I'm like trying to keep up and I'm like not even so
, you just keep doing it and, um, when you, when you emailed us,
you also mentioned that you doa lot of, uh, psychedelic
journalism.
Is this kind of the stuff thatyou write about?

Speaker 3 (26:21):
It is when I first, like I was explaining that time
period where I went really deepinto the research of
psychedelics, I got really intowriting and actually this came
out of my first trip too.
After the trip I was like Iwant to write a book about this
experience, just for my friends.
I'm not going to publish it, Ijust really want to share with

(26:41):
all of my friends what Iexperienced, and I'm just going
to write a book about it.
And I started writing this bookand at the same time I was like
going through the research side.
So then I had a lot of friendswho just knew that I was like
really into mushrooms orwhatever, and would asking me
I'm sure you know you wentthrough this too like saying, oh
, how do you microdose?
Or where can I find this kindof stuff.

(27:02):
So then I started like adding onto the book a section about
like if you want to microdose,like here's a protocol you can
follow.
And it just had like thehistory of microdosing, the
science etc.
And then I would just send itaround like to my friends as a
PDF.
And my friends were like Azalea, this is good, you should
publish this to see if I coulddo some writing because I really

(27:39):
enjoyed that.
So a lot of the writing startedout as like more integration
content, like helping peopleunderstand why community is a
big part of these experiences,or how to integrate an
experience, how to tell yourfamily about psychedelics, and
then eventually transitions tomore of this like personal
journalism or personal writingspecifically about my own
journey of integratingpsychedelics, integrating that

(28:02):
modern psychology with theindigenous apprenticeship and
ways of like being a steward ofthis medicine.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I kind of feel like we're a little bit of the
journalists in this space, alittle bit Like we, we base
things, things off of the typeof questions that we get.
So it's interesting.
You're like I'll write thislittle journal and then somebody
asks about microdosing andyou're like, oh, let me add that
that's kind of what it feelslike when we're doing something.

(28:30):
Is there's questions we don'tthink about, especially because
we're already in this space, andthen we'll have somebody new
come along and ask a questionand we're like I never thought
about that Right.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Let me dig into that.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Let's have someone on to talk about that.
Yeah, you know.
So we're doing it like, notwith the writing, but with with
the bringing people on andhaving them talk about their
experiences.
Yeah, that's so beautiful, butit's that's so beautiful, but
it's hard too, because I feellike in the world of
psychedelics, it is a huge oceanof information and it can be

(29:10):
extremely overwhelming.
And sometimes I forget howoverwhelming it can be to
someone who is just steppinginto it or just wanting to learn
something, and I'm like, oh, myGod, duh, like just Google it,
and I'm like, wait, no, it's notthat easy, it really isn't so.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
No, and you're right, I think like being so like
deeply involved, and especiallywith these ancient traditions
that are just like a whole otherworld than the psychedelic
movement itself.
I have such a hard timeremembering, like what it's like
to be in the beginning or whatkind of questions people ask you
know.
So I think it's so beautifulthat people are coming to you

(29:51):
with that and you get to likereconnect to it and learn a
little bit more yourself aboutthe things that you maybe didn't
think about.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, and I feel like with each interview we learn a
lot and then we get to continueto spread that information with
others.
Absolutely, we just keep onpassing it on and I love that.
I have a question People whoaren't indigenous but want to

(30:26):
have respect it to.
Maybe, let's say, they don'thave the resources or the means
to go to Mexico and go to aretreat.
They have to do it somewherehere, but they still want to be

(30:52):
respectful.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Like serving medicine .

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Partaking in it.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Partaking Partaking, yeah yeah.
Like serving medicine,partaking in it, partaking
partaking, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Things to look out for or, like you know, I don't
know, just just ways that theycan be respectful I think it
starts with gratitude, like,like informing yourself, having
a holistic understanding of notjust the people who kept these
practices, but also what theywent through to get these
practices to the US and thepractices didn't even really

(31:28):
travel, it was just the medicine, right.
So having that understanding,like really being in gratitude
around that, and that is likelike really being in gratitude
around that, and that is like Imean, that's the key, in my
opinion, to serving medicine, toconsuming medicine, is like

(31:48):
being in that gratitude andbeing in like a long-term
relationship, that this is notjust like a one-time experience
and maybe you do only consume itone time in your whole life,
but that this follows you.
You know like the integrationpath is like.
You know like the integrationpath is like you're still
walking with a plant ally.
It becomes a part of your life,it becomes a part of your path.
So having that understanding ofthe concept of right

(32:08):
relationship, for example, whichis this concept that, like, as
humans, we're not in this foodchain, we're in a circle of
reciprocity, so being an activeparticipant in that is like a
really important part ofconsuming this medicine, I
believe.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
I love that answer.
When you started this journey,were all of your friends and
family supportive.
Did they understand?
Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
No, I'm sorry, I was like that's literally what I was
thinking.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
I think people I don't, you know, I don't know
I'm still learning to this daylike how people felt about it,
because at the time it felt sotrue to me that I was like like
I might have to go through someshit, but like I don't care.
This is my truth.
I know deep down that like thisis the real work and I'm going
to do it, um, but when I, youknow, some, some of my family

(33:03):
members today, still feel a wayabout it which is so ironic,
because I'm like dude, you'reliterally native, and you're
going to be mad at me for, like,connecting to our practices,
you get a lot.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
So, yeah, I grew up in the Marshall Islands, where I
was born.
In the Marshall Islands, my, mymother is white and she brought
me to the States and I gotdisconnected from my culture and
a lot of my family.
But when I have used psilocybinI feel so connected to my

(33:44):
lineage and I feel so connectedto my heritage and that has
seemed to be the focal point ofa few of my journeys now.
But the thing that I strugglewith is I get a lot of flack
from my family.
But it's hard because I'm like,but I don't think you
understand, I feel so connectedand I've always, my entire life

(34:06):
I've felt disconnected and thisis something where I actually
feel so connected to where Icome from and I don't understand
.
I wish you could understand andexperience what I'm
experiencing.
So then, like to me, I feellike I'm respecting it in the
most profound way and wherebefore I felt so lost.

(34:33):
So I I just that's, that's,that's something that I have
struggled with is getting flackfrom that family where, you know
, we use a lot of plant medicine.
I don't, I don't think thatthey've used psilocybin, I don't
know, but plant medicine is acommon practice, so it's it's.

(34:57):
It's just been interesting tonavigate, I guess.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, and, like you know, I say it as if I was just.
Like you know, I don't give afuck, I'm going to do this and I
don't care what people say.
But of course it was difficultand actually like on that, one
of the hardest things on thatjourney was some of my best
friends that I grew up withstopped talking to me when they
started seeing me post aboutmushrooms and I didn't hear from
them for years.
And recently, literally liketwo weeks ago, I went back home

(35:26):
to visit and one of them reachedout to reconnect because she
started microdosing and she waslike you were right.
I mean that is so big because Ithink I also maybe didn't
realize how much it affected me.
You know that time that weweren't speaking and how I felt

(35:47):
really judged by her.
But when we reconnected and shewas just like yeah, like I took
mushrooms and I was like, oh,azalea was right like this is a
really beautiful medicine andand it was nice to reconnect and
also to not have harsh feelingsabout it.
Like I get it, she was at thatpoint in her journey.
I was on my path and like inthe midst of that it's so hard

(36:10):
to accept and you just keepreminding yourself, right?
You know I'm following my heart, I know that it's going to be
okay.
I don't know how but it will beand I could have gone my whole
life not talking to her and justtrusted that that was supposed
to happen.
But I was blessed to have hercome back in and to like
reconnect in that way.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
I love that you just shared that, because that is
probably one of the thingspeople are constantly bringing
to us is like how do you dealwith the loss of friendships?
And it's something we've neverdone, a full episode on it,
because some of those friendshiplosses are still very, very,
very deep and lot.
But it's also nice to know thatother people and I hate saying

(37:04):
it like that, but I hope youunderstand what I'm saying it's
nice to know that other peoplehave also felt that disconnect
from people that they reallynever expected that from.
Because we've gotten it fromfamily.
We've gotten it from family.
We've gotten it from closefriends, and I think a lot of
times people, before theypartake in some type of ceremony

(37:25):
, they think like, oh, that'llnever happen to me though, right
, like I've been friends withthese people for my entire life
and my family is supersupportive of what I'm doing.
And then it happens and you'relike wait a minute, I thought
you guys were going to be mywriter.
It doesn't always happen likethat, so I'm not trying to turn

(37:47):
this into a question, but I kindof am.
Now, what kind of advice wouldyou give to someone who's
experiencing that for the firsttime?

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah, honestly, the first thing that comes to mind
is like, hang in there becauseyou know that what you're doing
is right.
And it's like, yes, we'retalking about psychedelics here,
but it's almost like with anyboundary you set right.
You have to trust that you knowwhat you need, you know what's
good for you and not everybodyis going to understand that.
And on your path, on yourjourney to self-realization or

(38:20):
self-love, you have to be okaywith not everybody understanding
that.
You have to be okay with losingpeople maybe who don't
understand that.
But the other little nuggetI'll drop in is that nine times
out of 10 that this has happenedto me or I've seen it happen to
other people with psychedelics,the people who were resistant
try psychedelics and have a muchbetter understanding of what's

(38:43):
going on and totally changetheir mind, whether or not they
continue like taking thepsychedelics or believe in it,
whatever, usually they have theexperience and they're like, oh,
okay, I get it and it's fine,like oh, okay, I get it and it's
fine.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
And I like what you mentioned, that sometimes people
like they come back, like you,you can reconnect again.
I mean, I've I've had thatwhere it's people who have been
like, wow, you know, I reallykind of judged you when you
started posting stuff and I waslike you know what's she doing?
She's a mom, she's this, she'sdoing drugs and kind of the
stereotype, she stereotype,she's doing drugs.
And then it was like, oh, butthen I know somebody that helped

(39:20):
with addiction or I watchedthis documentary or I, you know,
and it just opened my eyesbecause it's we don't know what
we don't know.
And at the time and sometimespeople need some time to, you
know, digest some things andmaybe they're used to a certain
version of you.
So then when you come out andyou're like I've done mushrooms

(39:41):
and I'm this different personnow and I think differently and
it can be a lot, it is, and Iunderstand that as well.
So it may be hard to kind ofdigest a little bit.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, and kind of like back to this original
question.
You asked about how my familyand friends reacted.
The majority of the reactionswere like oh, that makes sense,
because you've grown so much.
You come out or you startspeaking about your experience.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
You are an example of that medicine and the way that
you carry yourself the way thatyou walk through life, people
will start to notice that, yeah,integration right there.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
You're exactly right.
I feel like your first instinctis to defend and ask why.
But you're exactly right.
I think you know.
Ask why.
But you're exactly right.
I think the more youunapologetically show up and it
kind of resonates with with somepeople and I feel like they see
it, the people that we've ranaway, they see it, they just

(40:50):
don't know what to do with it.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, and even my partner, um, he didn't do a
journey until a year after I didmine, but the reason why he
chose to do one is because hesaw me change.
He saw me heal day in, day outfor a year and saw how I started
to get better.

(41:14):
Get better struggling withanxiety, depression, past
childhood trauma, eatingdisorders, all of that.
So I think when they see thattransformation, it makes them
you know, some of them a littlecurious, like, oh, maybe I can
do that too, something'sdifferent.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Maybe it's those mushrooms she kept talking about
in the beginning, because thisis going to be talking about in
the beginning, because this isgoing to be I'm a little bit
making fun of myself a littlebit but I think a lot of times
when people first do apsychedelic and they have this
really, really positiveexperience, they want to shout
it from the rooftops, theyreally do.

(41:53):
Or they are like immediatelylike this is what I need to be
doing with my life.
This is it and that that thathigh lasts for a little while
and then, like real life, hitsand you're like, well, maybe
that's not what I was supposedto be doing, but I was
definitely supposed to have thatexperience and definitely see
the power in this medicine.
I love that.

(42:13):
For you, though, that literallywas like the path that it took
you and kept you on.
You're like I need to be doingsomething with this.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
And I went through so many waves with it as well,
especially like going deeperinto it.
And you hear all these storiesabout the person who, like,
takes mushrooms and is like oh,I'm a shaman and it's just like
not really legit.
So I questioned myself a lot,which was part of the path.
You know, like I think ifyou're not questioning yourself,
then you should be looked out,for you know what I mean.

(42:49):
But I went through a lot ofwaves of and still to this day,
I think part of the path, orbeing somebody who is in
stewardship with these medicines, who holds this ceremony, is
like being okay with having tolet go of that.
If you had to, like not makingit your identity right, Not
letting your ego get involvedand like this is just what I do

(43:11):
for work and if tomorrow I gowork at a coffee?

Speaker 2 (43:12):
shop, then that's what I do for work.
Love that I do too, which kindof leads me so I feel like
sometimes there's controversy orconfusion with the word shaman
and what that means.
What would you define as ashaman?

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yeah, it's such a tough question because I almost
feel that the word shaman shouldnot exist in vocabulary because
it's an identity.
But the path to shamanism issomething that you can practice
okay, can you?

Speaker 1 (43:53):
I hate to say like can you elaborate on that?
But like, could you please?
I know I'm like taking that in.
I'm like holy shit.
I think the first time I evermet a shaman, I was kind of like
you.
I was like I didn't even knowthey wore regular clothes.
Like she was in my house likelooking all normal and stuff and

(44:14):
oh my gosh, it's a person.
I'm like I thought you guyslived in the mountains, have
this complete misunderstandingof what the word actually is,
but I like that you're sayingthat because it's honest.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
No, and it's true what people think, and we have
to learn, and so you knowbecause shamanism's been like
ripped from most of modernculture so we don't have this
understanding right.
And this is also what I mean bylike being the modern medicine
woman.
You know people see me as ashaman or whatever, but I'm just
like also walking down thestreet in my air force ones and

(44:48):
like my crop top I said I'm amodern medicine woman styles
evolve, yes, but yes, let meelaborate though because I know
that might have been a bitconfusing.
But you know a lot of people,especially in indigenous
societies, like they don't likethe people who you would

(45:11):
identify as shamans.
They don't like being called ashaman because it comes with a
lot of ego and identity andthere's this sort of like more
modern definition that theshaman is like somebody who was
the chosen one and they didn'treally have to work for it, they
were just born into it.
But the path to shamanism is alittle bit of both.
Like you're often born into areally difficult life path with

(45:34):
a lot of trauma.
That gives you a deeper andwider understanding of the world
.
But the path to shamanism islike working with healing your
own trauma, to have that deeperunderstanding, to bring it back
to your community.
Like the traditional role of ashaman is to be available for
community healing in whateverform that takes, right.
So if we're going to talk aboutlike modern shamanism, right,

(45:58):
and what that works with orspecifically I use the term
curanderismo because it'sspecifically like learning
shamanism with plant medicinesand that's a whole other world
of shamanism is like walkingthat path, healing your trauma,
learning how to help others heal, how to help others walk the
path.
But then you're also learninghow to create really deep

(46:19):
relationships with differentplant spirits that assist you on
that journey.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
So could we one day be modern day Shaman On a plant
medicine shaman journey, the waythat you're saying it.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
it kind of reminds me of like the hero, the heroine's
it, or how you were able toalchemize the situation into a
positive, like sharing that withother people and not
withholding that information.
I mean, I feel like the word,the word has a negative impact
on a lot of people, or anegative, icky feeling on a lot
of people or a negative ickyfeeling on a lot of people.
It's kind of like the wordnarcissist, like everybody over
the word that's overused andmisunderstood and misused and
and so, yeah, we had, when wedid ayahuasca and our shaman,

(47:27):
like people were really agitatedthat he called himself a shaman
and but I'm like, but I see himas a shaman, Like it doesn't
bother me, that's what he goesby.
I mean, it wasn't like his name, but you know what I mean.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
No, it's true, it's true and it's like you know it's
a complicated topic, butessentially it's a path that you
walk and I bring this upbecause it's true that everybody
has this within them.
Anybody can really like walkthat path to understanding
themselves, understanding others, helping other people.
But not everybody can be ashaman and not everybody has

(48:03):
what it takes to be a shaman.
And in a lot of indigenouscommunities I'm using this term
broadly because I'm thinking nowof Mazatak and Shipibo Like
people actually don't reallywant to be shamans, Like it's
not an exciting thing becauseit's really fucking hard.
Like it's a hard path to walk.
So at the end of the day, likedifferent people feel a

(48:24):
different way about that term.
But you go into training forshamanism, you learn how to walk
that path.
You're given sacred tools liketobacco pipe or popo shikomi,
which is like an incense holderfor kopal, and you're given
initiation to like really learnhow to use these tools.
But again, it's at the end ofthe day, it's always up to you
to create the relationship thatreally enables the healing that

(48:47):
comes from these plants.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
I am glad that you elaborated on that, and I was
totally joking earlier.
I do not want thatresponsibility.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
No, no, well, I mean, it's kind of like the way that
I'm saying it.
Like you know, people will callme a healer, call you a healer,
and I'm like oh, I don't likethat word.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Like I know that I am because I've done these things.
You know, like I'm a healer ina different way.
I'm not like a healer in thetradition.
I mean, I guess it is atradition, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
No, but it's like you know.
As we've said, there's healingthat can take place in so many
different ways and, while I dobelieve that the person who had
the MDMA and the heart openingexperience and immediately
wanted to start leading MDMAsessions and they're doing
really good work it's verydifferent than the plant
shamanism, where you'reliterally fasting for multiple

(49:45):
weeks alone in the jungle justto be able to have experience
with one plant plants, you know.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
So we're talking a lot about psilocybin
specifically.
Do you help facilitate withother?

Speaker 3 (50:06):
plant medicine and if so, what is that?
So I mostly facilitate withpsilocybin because that's what
I've been called to work withand it's in my ancestry and it
just feels right, you know.
But I also work with cacao, butcacao is a great partner to
psilocybin.
Part of the path to initiationfor psilocybin is working with
cacao in the Mazatec lineage.

(50:26):
So I see them as partners,these two plants, and recently I
started working more with bluelotus.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
I know nothing about blue lotus.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
I've sent you articles about it before because
what I have read about it itcan really help with dream
states, and maybe I'm wrongabout that.
That's just something that Ihave learned on my own, but can
you elaborate on it?
I would love to learn, likefrom you.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yes, of course, Definitely dream states that the
blue Lotus is like the Egyptianpsychedelic.
It was like the psychedelic ofthe ancient Egyptians and they
would take it for spiritualmeans.
They would sometimes mix it intheir wine for parties.
It's really really beautifulherbal medicine and while you're

(51:19):
not going to have a psychedelictrip unless you maybe drink a
lot of blue lotus tea you'regoing to have a deep meditative
state that sometimes can giveyou visuals, kind of like a
sound bath.
You know, when you're put intoreally deep meditative state,
Definitely for communing withyour dreams.
So you'll have not just reallyvivid dreams, but the blue lotus

(51:42):
helps you to remember more ofyour dreams so you can do a lot
of dream work.
It's a third eye herb so itreally helps with your intuition
, like trusting yourself whenyou feel a certain way, feeling
more deeply connected to yourheart and not so stuck in your
head.
It's really good for thenervous system, so great for
people who have a lot of anxietyand also just generally good

(52:06):
for sleep because of that dreamstate that it puts you in.
So if you have insomnia and youdrink Blue Lotus before going
to bed, it's really good for you.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Good to know.
We haven't talked about thisand I would love to have
somebody on who does talk aboutthis.
But for a minute I was reallyfocused and trying to figure out
how to lucid dream.
That's why I was looking intothe Blue Lotus in the first
place.
Yeah, you go through a lot ofphases I go through.
Yeah, I'm a manifestor, that'swhat I do.

(52:35):
So I'm like how can I learn howto lucid dream?
And I literally for weeks, wasworking on practicing
remembering my dreams and thatstarted working.
And every time it shocked me.
I would wake up and be like, ohmy God, the fact that I
remember every detail of mydream, like what just happened.
So I stopped halfway throughbecause it's kind of started to

(52:56):
freak me out a little bit.
Nothing negative happened, butit was very powerful that I had
the ability to do even what Idid.
But I was like, okay, this is alittle much.
I don't know if I want to likelucid dream yet I may need to
like work on this a little bit.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Well, you manifested this conversation about blue
lotus.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
For real.
Okay, so maybe I need to likego back into that.
That was my sign.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yes, no, it's a very, she's a very beautiful medicine
.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Wow, and is is blue lotus.
I feel like that's legal.
It is, it's not Okay.
That's what I thought too,cause you can.
You can get that.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Okay, good to know, so not to bring it down.
Um, uh, I, on both my mom anddad's side, have, um, there's a
lot of addiction, um, andsubstance abuse and um, again,

(54:01):
bringing up plant medicine,bringing up psilocybin, bringing
it up that these medicines cantreat addiction has been
something where I've been metwith, like using a drug to treat
alcohol addiction.
That doesn't, that doesn't makeany sense.

(54:24):
Like how can you take a drug tothen treat an addiction to a
different substance?
Um, that's hard to explain.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
So can you explain it?
Cause it is, it's, it's, it's.
It's hard to explain to someonewho has never used the medicine

(54:48):
to understand why that would be.
And also, I am somebody whoused to be bulimic and I feel
like you know, at the core of itis trauma, but it's like then
this person uses alcohol to cope.
I use bulimia, you use Xenorex.
You know everyone has theirdifferent coping strategies.

(55:10):
It's not necessarily thesubstance.
But yeah, can you elaborate onthat?
For sure, for sure.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
I think one of the easiest ways that I've been able
to tap into that conversationis to remind people that these
are things that we can find onthe earth.
They're natural, right, liketaking away the conversation
from this being a drug and thisliterally being not just a plant
medicine.
But mushrooms are actually asuperfood.
Like this is actually just apart of your diet at this point,

(55:38):
especially when somebody islike microdosing, this is like a
supplement that you're taking.
My family also.
I have addiction on both sidesof my family and that was part
of the struggle to coming outabout what I do, because it was
going to be seen as a drug.
But I was able to have thatconversation with my parents
that like no, actually this is agift from the earth and

(56:01):
thankfully, my parents had thatholistic understanding so they
were able to go like, oh, that'strue, why do we see that as a
drug?
Because we can literally justpick this from the mountains, or
the same as lavender, the sameas like lavender, or whatever.
So helping people to rememberthat, I think, is really, really

(56:21):
helpful.
And what you're saying aboutthis thing that everything stems
from the trauma, right, ifsomebody that you're speaking to
has that understanding already,then what you can help explain
is that psilocybin doesn't shunyou from the trauma.
That's what all of these otherdrugs do, things that we abuse
are shunning us from the trauma.
It actually puts a spotlight onthe trauma, so it's just very
different.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Sometimes you're like I don't want to feel all this.
This is a lot and it's heavyand I was down for a reason.
But yeah, no, I'm glad youelaborated on that, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Yeah, yeah.
And also just the idea thatpsychedelics in general will
help you to explore thesubconscious and bring things to
your awareness, and that's sodifferent than, like you said,
suppressing something.
It actually just like holdsyour hand as you walk the
journey of your mind.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Which I think it's interesting how we've been
conditioned to demonize goinginto our own subconscious Right.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
I guess my head Do what I want with it.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Right Even what you're saying, Leah, about like
dream work and how that kind ofgets overwhelming sometimes Like
there's a lot of people thatbelieve dream work is demonic
about.
Like dream work and how thatkind of gets overwhelming
sometimes Like there's a lot ofpeople that believe dream work
is demonic, but dream work isjust the exploration of your
mind.
Talk about literally demonizingthe mind.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
I never thought about it that way, which is again why
these interviews are such great.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
How are you going to make my dreams illegal?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yes, so you live in Mexico and you facilitate
retreats.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
I do, yes, I facilitate ceremonies and
retreats.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yes, I would love to talk about that.
We're obviously in the US.
Do you do them only in Mexico?
Like, tell us all of the things.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
Tell our listeners.
I would love to do them in theU S, particularly because these
retreats are a lot of lands workwe work a lot with like healing
the land and just ancestraltraditions, and I think the U?
S could use a lot of that love.
But just because of thelegality issue, I'm doing these
in Mexico because Mexico wereprotected by indigenous law to

(58:40):
continue these practices.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Okay, okay.
So where can people find you?
When is your next retreat?
Give us all of the details ofthat as well, please.
Yes, of course.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
So we do our retreats right now in San Miguel de
Allende, which is in Guanajuato,and it's just this beautiful
little village and it'sconsidered the heart of Mexico.
So it was also veryintentionally chosen for the
energy that that land holds uswith, and the retreats are
typically a week long because Ireally like to give people that

(59:15):
space to integrate.
I feel like it's really harshto just come into an experience
and go home right.
This is why I also don't liketo do one-off ceremonies or even
weekend experiences.
We really need that space toalso be in relationship with the
land, with the peoples and withthe medicine itself.
So we'll have like a lot ofintegration and preparation

(59:40):
activities throughout the weekyoga, meditation I do like
psychological preparation withpeople as well.
We'll typically have amicrodose day and we'll use that
day as like an offering to theearth.
Before the ceremony We'll gointo this beautiful nature
reserve.
We have like a guided spiritwalk and then it's also a nice
way for people to experience thesubtlety of the medicine,

(01:00:01):
especially people who have notyet taken psilocybin.
It's nice for them to take thesmaller amount and see what it's
like before stepping into theceremony.
And then, of course, we'll havethe ceremony things throughout
the week, like a cow ceremony.
I mean, I've said it, but we doso many land offerings and just
really like trying to make thisprocess sustainable so that when

(01:00:23):
you leave the retreat centeryou're not done or you don't
feel like, okay, I'm home and Idon't know what to do now, like
you really are handheldthroughout that process.
But yeah, you can find it on mywebsite, which is
vibrationalhealingme, becausewe're all about self-healing and
being your own personal healer.

(01:00:44):
And the next one is in June,which is super soon.
That one is for the summersolstice and also an offering to
Tlaloc, which is the Aztecdeity for rain, because it's the
beginning of our rainy season.
And then the next one we'llhave is going to be in September

(01:01:05):
with the equinox.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Wow, I've done cacao and I've obviously done
psilocybin, but I've never donethem together, so I would love
to try that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
They're great friends .
I mean, the cacao teaches you alot about the spirit of the
mushroom.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Are they good together?
Because it's like the cacaohelps open.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Well, they're both heart openers, for sure, but we
actually don't.
Well, we'll take the mushroomswith cacao seed, but the cacao
ceremony happens days before themushroom ceremony.
Okay, so that the spirit isworking with somebody before
they consume the mushroommedicine okay, can uh people
find you on social media?

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
yes, okay, what's that?
My well included in our shownotes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Perfect.
My handle on Instagram is at.
I'm going to say it in anEnglish accent because it's in
Spanish, so sorry, to theSpanish listeners this is going
to sound horrible.
Yes, we'll do both.
It's Azalea de Tierra, butAzalea de Tierra, yeah, which

(01:02:13):
means in Spanish like azalea ofthe earth.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
I love that.
I love that.
Okay, I'm going to do one morething, because I texted you late
last night.
This is what we do, like in themiddle of the night.
I'm like I'm texting you justnow so I don't forget.
But I think we need to startasking our guests this question.
Oh, I didn't see that.
It was at like yeah, you wereprobably asleep.
I was sleeping.
I said this is something I wantto start asking anyone who has

(01:02:42):
had psychedelic experience.
Um, and the reason I wanted tostart asking this is because we
have a lot of people interestedin doing journeys or microdosing
, but they are afraid ofsomething and that's the thing
that's holding them back.
I'm thinking of a couple ofpeople in particular who have

(01:03:04):
been putting off a journey foryears because they're so afraid
of what would come up.
And so my question that I wantto start asking people who have
experienced this medicine workand who have, who are years out
of it and it's not like superfresh on your mind, because I
think sometimes super fresh,you're like don't do it.
But my question is what wereyou most afraid of going into

(01:03:27):
your first ceremony and what didyou least expect to happen?

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Wow, good question.
That's such a good question.
Wow Oof.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
Let's see.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
Take your time.
Yeah, I have to really thinkabout that, to be honest, with
my first mushroom experience Iwasn't really afraid.
I felt really safe.
I did a little bit of research,I was in a good mindset my

(01:04:10):
friend had done mushrooms manytimes so I felt really safe,
like comforted by that, knowingI was going to do this with her.
But there was more of this likethe fear of the unknown right,
like I couldn't say that I wasafraid I was going to see
dragons or I was afraid thatlike I was going to lose my mind
.
It was more just like I'mstepping into like truly unknown

(01:04:31):
territory, and that comes with,maybe like the energy of a
little bit of fear in terms oflike I don't know what I'm
stepping into, but I rememberthis, this quote making me think
of this quote.
It says courage is not theabsence of fear, rather that
something else is more importantthan the fear itself.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
That was perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Because the fear is there and it's natural, but you
have to make the decision likehow much you want that fear to
stop you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
You're exactly right.
I think we were terrified withour first journeys and we did it
anyway, and I would be lying ifI said there wasn't a little
bit of fear every time afterthat oh yeah, there's always
that always fear.
I think it's.
I think it's like we're not notafraid.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
It's a little new because it you really don't know
.
You don't know what's gonnacome up, you don't know.
You know, I had one journeywhere it was the most beautiful
connection with my ancestors andrainbows and butterflies, and I
came out and I was just sohappy.
And then another journey whereit was about my ancestors, but

(01:05:46):
it was like experiencing all ofthe generational trauma and and
and that was incredibly painfuland took me a minute to really
sit with it, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
So, the fear of the unknown.
The fear of the unknown Ishealthy.
If you weren't afraid, I wouldbe like that's a little psycho.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Yeah, I mean, that's always there.
You know, I've sat in so manyceremonies, I've led so many and
still you never know what'sgoing to happen.
But that's why I use thislanguage of like long term
sustainability path, becauseit's a practice.
You just get better at likebeing okay with the fear.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Yeah, that is exactly .
You just explained it in a waythat I couldn't like.
You just be okay.
You're just okay with the fearat some point.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
Well, thank you for taking the time today to talk
with us, and I am so glad wereconnect like we were able to
connect after this you know wewere very excited to talk with
you today.
We're also both incrediblynervous, I know.
I don't know why we just were,but I'm I'm incredibly grateful

(01:06:58):
that we had this conversationwith you and got to connect.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
I'm so grateful.
Thank you so much for even justmaking room for these
conversations.
You know there's not a lot ofindigenous voices that get to be
heard in this space too, so Ireally appreciate you bringing
lineage into your podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Yes, and maybe one day we'll meet you on retreat.
I was just going to say I wouldlove that.
Yes, what's happening in theuniverse?
Yeah, All right.
And to our listeners staycurious, be open and we will see
you guys on the other side.

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82 | Bridging Ancient Wisdom with Modern Psychedelics (with Azalea Montaño-Kemp)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}82 | Bridging Ancient Wisdom with Modern Psychedelics (with Azalea Montaño-Kemp)