83 | Just Don't It (A New Perspective on Depression and Anxiety) - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
we have so much to unpack today.
Yeah, and it's an episode thatI have we've been wanting to do
it, but I feel like now is thetime to do it.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
With may being mental health May is mental health
awareness month.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
I have gone through many an Instagram posts during
may before in my times ofstruggle.
Um, no, no, I'm not even goingto say that.
I opened up about my mentalhealth during Mental Health
Awareness Month years ago andthe amount of people that

(00:37):
bombarded me in the DMs withlike, oh my God, are you okay?
Do you want to talk about it?
We can, you know, you reach outif you ever want to chat, and
I'm like, I'm fine now.
You didn't see me when I wasstruggling.
Yeah, like you didn't know whenI was struggling.
I'm posting about it nowbecause I'm out of it, and I

(01:01):
think that that's a thing a lotof people don't understand.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, that's funny.
You say that because I'vegotten that too, where I've
posted about my struggles andpeople have been like, oh my God
, do you need anything, are youokay?
And I'm like listen, yes, butvulnerability is a superpower.
Yeah, but it's almost likewe're so conditioned to think

(01:24):
it's like this weakness, yeah,when it's like, no, I'm getting
myself out of it, but it's likeI'm empowered because I'm
sharing that.
I went through this and gotthrough this, and you're seeing
it as like, oh, poor you.
And it's like, no, when I wasdown, bad, you didn't even

(01:45):
fucking know, right, and I didthat on purpose I think a lot of
people do Right Because you're,you feel shame and so you put
on that mask and and so, like mebeing like no, I really did
struggle.
I really did struggle on a deeplevel.
I think that's coming from anempowered place.
It can totally kid yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
And there's sometimes the opposite, like, um sure, I
see people sometimes will postyou know, I'm in the worst low
of my life right now and I don'tknow what to do Like they'll
post statuses and updates andthings like that, and to me like
that is a definite cry for help, because if you're posting that
while you're in it, like that'sextremely brave of you and, yes

(02:31):
, somebody needs to check on you.
But if you are posting likethis is what I went through and
this is how hard it was likenine times out of 10, you're not
in it anymore.
Right, you've gotten out of it.
Nine times out of 10, you'renot in it anymore.
Right, you've gotten out of it.
But I wanted to talk aboutmental health, because where I

(02:51):
am with it now and what I thinkabout depression and anxiety now
is very different than what Ithought about it when I was in
it years ago.
I feel like you would say thesame thing.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh, absolutely so.
We've learned so much what.
What did you think about itwhen?

Speaker 1 (03:12):
you were in it.
What was your feelings andexperience in the moment?
I hate to?
I hate to do story time, but Ifeel like I have to do like a
little bit of a back track,because the first time I ever
experienced depression, um wasafter I had my daughter.
I was diagnosed with postpartumdepression and anxiety.
I didn't even know it until shewas a year old and it blew my

(03:37):
fucking mind.
This is in 2006.
She was born in 2006.
And it wasn't until 2007 that Irealized.
Did you say 2006?
I did.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I meant to say 2016.
That's very inaccurate 2016.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
A whole decade later I was like she's not that old,
she's seven.
So the math wasn't math.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Thank you for that.
I never would have noticed.
Tell me to interrupt.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
No, I was like Thank you for that, Thank you for that
2016,.
I had my daughter and it wasn'tuntil 2017 that my husband was
like I think you might bedepressed.
What did?
How did it show up?
I don't even know how todescribe it because it wasn't
what I thought it was.

(04:23):
It was this feeling of like youknow, people talk about the
baby blues and the baby bluesare like they're supposed to go
away.
They never went away.
But I wasn't sad all the time.
I wasn't suicidal.
I wasn't in my room crying allthe time, Like so.

(04:45):
I didn't want to hurt my babyfor some fucking reason.
I thought that postpartumdepression, the marker of
postpartum depression, was ifyou wanted to hurt yourself or
your baby.
I can't be the only one whothought that.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
No, and I want to put a pin.
I want to hear your storybecause I never thought I had
depression and I always haddepression, because I thought
depression was oh, you can't getout of bed, you're just.
You know you can't do anything,and it can look like it can be
that, but mine wasn't that.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Well.
So it was a lot of like feelinglike I was drowning for a year
and also just accepting it andand instead of saying there's
something wrong, I was very muchlike well, I guess this is just
life with three kids.

(05:41):
I had no idea it would be thishard and this is just what the
rest of my life is going to looklike.
I had no idea it would be thishard and this is just what the
rest of my life is going to looklike.
And I was in my head about likeI shouldn't have had a third
kid.
I shouldn't have, I shouldn'thave wanted another baby.
Like I didn't know it was goingto be this hard.
Nobody told me it was going tobe this hard, you know like.
So to me, what I wasexperiencing was just life with

(06:03):
a third child.
That's what I thought it was.
So what really scares me ispeople who get that, who are
diagnosed with postpartumdepression with their first
child because they don't knowany difference.
So I'm like they reallyprobably are thinking oh my God,
this is what life with a babyis like.

(06:25):
This is what being a mom islike.
I didn't know it was going tobe like this.
I had two other kids.
So like I still didn'tunderstand it, I still was like
well, it's that third one.
It just kind of pushed me overthe edge and life is never going
to be the same.
So when he was like I think youmight be depressed, I was like

(06:46):
no, no.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Did it offend you?
I?
I was a little bit like I'm notdepressed, you're just being an
asshole.
So, yes, it was a little bit itoffended me, cause I was like
I'm not fucking depressed, yeah,no.
So, um, he was like I think youmight want to talk to your
doctor, my OB, um, but I Googledit after that, cause you know

(07:12):
me and my rabbit holes, and IGoogled it and like what the
symptoms and signs of postpartumdepression were, and I was like
nine out of 10, like nine outof 10.
I was like, oh fuck, I didn'tknow this.
There are so many signs andsymptoms of depression.
I'm going to give an example.

(07:34):
I did end up going onantidepressants for a little bit
.
I tried really hard to avoidthem.
I sat on this prescription forlike several months and I was
like I'll start working out andthen I'll get better, and then
I'll start doing this and thenit'll get better, and it never
got better.
So I did go on antidepressants,um for about six months or so
and then I weaned myself off.

(07:55):
Um, I didn't like the way theymade me feel.
I felt like they made me feelvery numb, um, which I guess
works for some people.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Can.
Can I share something thatyou've shared with me that like
sticks out to me?
Yeah, you said once that whenyou were on antidepressants,
like Jason was still an addict.
Yeah, and so let's say he wouldgo out, yeah, you'd be in

(08:24):
before the antidepressants.
It would make you upset.
Yeah.
Where then on theantidepressants, you're like meh
.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I was very numb to my emotions.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
And it's even the good ones he liked me better or
even the ones where you shouldfeel angry because it's valid.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Or you know what I mean.
The reason I got off of themwas because I was watching um, a
star is born with a friend andI don't want to give the movie
away, but there's a part of themovie where something very
emotional happens.
Yeah, and I didn't cry.
And I am a big crier, as we allknow.

(09:02):
I am big in my feelings.
So for me not to cry and lookover and see this other person
very emotional, I'm like what'swrong with me?
Why am I not crying?
But then I started to realizeall the things that it was
making me numb to.
So, yeah, I was very apatheticin our relationship, like he was

(09:26):
very much still an addict, hewas very much still going out
and not coming home, and I juststopped caring, like I didn't
have any emotions over it.
So, yeah, there was a pointwhere, when I came off of them
and started having thesefeelings come up again, it was a
lot.
It was a lot.
And he was also like I likedyou better on medicine because I

(09:49):
didn't get angry, I didn't getupset about what he was doing.
I was, I was a shell of myself.
Even my aunt, who you met thispast weekend, was like your
sparkle was gone, there wassomething off, and I didn't.
She didn't tell me this untilafter I came back off of him and
I was like, explaining this butlike you don't know, you're in

(10:12):
that until you come out of it,and I was like, oh my God, I
wasn't just like complacent andcontent and happy, I was numbed
to what was going on around me.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, so well, and I was just going to say like I
think a lot of people are scaredof feelings, I can see why
Right, and I and I and Iunderstand it and I get it, yeah
, but like Jason being like, ohwow, she's feeling things like
you should go back on medicine,yeah, which I want to get into
that later too, absolutely Well.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
And so the the scared of feelings like those feelings
were telling me so many things.
My panic attacks were tellingme things, my anxiety was
telling me things, thatdepression was telling me stuff,
and I was just trying to getrid of it because it didn't feel
good yeah.
Yeah, because it didn't feelgood.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
And I think even in my relationship being married to
an alcoholic he preferred me tonot have feelings.
You know we've come a long wayRight Since then.
Now I'll just cry on fornothing.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
I can feel that I'm going to cry this episode.
I can literally just feel it.
You can feel it.
I don't know when it.
You can feel it.
I don't know when it's coming,but it'll happen, it'll happen.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
So I'm thank you for like sharing that part, because
there there's so much to itthere's no way I can touch on it
in one episode or in one littlestory time.
So, um, depression for mewasn't what I thought.
There was another instance.
I had a client years ago tellme, you know, she would open up
to me about things and, um, I,one of the things that she was

(11:54):
feeling a lot of was like rageand anger, bouts of anger, and I
remember at the end of the atthe end she was just like you
know I opened up to my therapistand she told me I was worried,
I was depressed, and she told mewell, you can't be depressed
because you're you're angry, andif you're depressed you don't
feel anger.
And I, I interjected no.

(12:16):
I interjected and I said I Ihate to like say anything about
your therapist, but what worriesme about what she said is that
when you look up the signs andthe symptoms of depression,
anger is one of them and it'slike bursts of anger.

(12:38):
And so I said I don't know thatwhat she said is accurate.
I would feel bouts of rage allthe time when I was depressed
and I got in my head about itbecause afterwards I was like I
shouldn't have said that.
Oh my God, like now she's goingto hate me.
The next appointment she cameto me and she was just like you

(12:58):
were right.
Turns out I was depressed and Iwas like, oh, thank God,
because I felt like Ioverstepped.
You know I felt like Ioverstepped.
You know I felt like Ioverstepped by saying that.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
But I'm happy that I shared.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Cause I was like I didn't, but I I thought I did at
the time.
This was years ago.
I was finding my voice at thetime and every time it came out
I'd be like, oh God, oh God, itcame out Well and the inside
thoughts came out.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Well, and to share, like about me, I never thought I
was depressed.
Yeah, because I was angry andso like if I would have had
someone like you who was like,no, I don't think that's just
whatever.
Like I think that there mightbe some, some sadness and grief
there.
So, like you brought up youraunt, yeah, I met her this past

(13:46):
weekend and she is divine,absolutely lovely, like, so
wonderful, and like she's thefirst again human design, but
she's the first reflector thatI've ever met and I know, and it
was like whatever anyone, anyperson needed, she had this way

(14:09):
of like giving it back.
Yeah, it's kind of wild andhard to explain but she is nasty
with her.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
She's going to be nasty back.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh, no, scorpio sis, but what I was going to say is
we were talking the other nightand she sent me like a really
nice message, like it was sonice meeting you, yada, yada,
yada, and you're like I love herso much and I'm like I get it,

(14:38):
yeah, fuck.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Are you going to cry?
I'm sorry, I'm not sorry.
It's just feelings, it's justemotions, it's okay.
We can't reach the clean end ofthis.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
But she's wonderful and you said she was my safe
space.
Did you have that In any auntsor uncles or anybody?

(15:14):
And I was like no, I didn't.
And I really needed it badly.
And I never thought I wasdepressed because I went to work
, I went to school, did college,did all the things.
But I was so angry.
But the reason why I was angryis because there was so much

(15:39):
grief, because I didn't haveanybody and I didn't have
support and I didn't have thetools.
But a lot of things happenedand I didn't know what to do
with it all and it was a lot andI really wish I would have had
that.
And again, I've done a lot ofhealing.

(16:00):
But that moment it made me feelwhen we had that conversation,
it made me feel really sad.
That conversation it made mefeel really sad but it also made
me feel really proud of myselffor the work that I've done.
Yeah, um, I told you it wascoming we didn't know it'd be
that quick I could feel it.

(16:21):
Um, I don't even know where Iwas going with that.
But again, I think a lot ofpeople think that depression is
this like one size fits all, andit's not that it doesn't look,
and so I spent a lot of yearssuffering because I didn't think
I was depressed, I just thoughtI was angry.
But it was really like Igenuinely, genuinely did have

(16:44):
depression and I had depressionfor most of my life and I didn't
.
I didn't know it and I didn'thave help.
I didn't have tools.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
So thank you for sharing that.
I feel really bad.
Don't feel bad, I shouldn't.
I know I'm sorry.
Bad, don't feel bad, Ishouldn't.
I know I'm sorry.
Yeah, don't feel bad.
Okay, I knew that thatconversation was like it hit
yeah, yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, there's this.

(17:14):
You know, yours, I think yours,was a lot of anger and mine was
a lot of sadness yeah andthat's how it showed up.
I would cry every day on my wayto work and it's like thinking
back.
Now I'm like duh, motherfucker.
I was crying every day on myway to work, but I would just
chalk it up to feeling well, I'moverwhelmed and this is my

(17:39):
break from my family life, but Ialso feel like being at work
was not a break.
Yeah, you know, but can I saywhy?

Speaker 2 (17:47):
I wasn't sad.
Yeah, I wasn't safe enough to.
I didn't feel safe enough to besad holy shit, holy shit.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
So anger was yeah, felt safe for you.
Yeah, that makes a lot of senseBecause it was that makes me
like just want to hug you so bad.
I'm sorry, no it's okay.
God, not even like 10 minutesin Jesus, 20 minutes in, it's
just feelings.
It's just feelings, no.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's not a big deal I didn't have.
I didn't feel safe to be sad.
That was way too vulnerable forme, so angry was the mask that
I wore, and I wore it so peoplewouldn't mess with me.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
You wore it Well.
You wore it Well.
I think I remember talking toyou in the beginning of our like
newfound friendship, like aboutdepression and what it was like
for me and you being like waita minute, was I depressed?
Was that what I was feeling?

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
What's interesting is , several years later, my
husband, I started noticing umthe same signs and symptoms,
like just this feeling of likeunworthiness, like hopelessness,
feeling stuck in life, not likehe used to always say to me and

(19:15):
this is pre sober husband, likeyou have nothing to be
depressed about.
Like you have three healthykids.
Like look at our life, Our lifeis so good.
Like we have food on the tableand clothes and shelter, and
like life is good.
Why are you so depressed?
And I'm like, and that wouldmake me feel even worse, yeah.

(19:36):
It didn't help at all, becausethen I would be like you're
right, right.
Why am I depressed?
And I would like get depressionguilt?

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Because I think there's a lot of shame with it
there is.
There's so much shame with it.
Yeah, so you know I, I totallyunderstand that.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
So when he started to get there and I'm looking at
him seeing the signs, seeing thesymptoms, and it went on for a
few months.
And I'm looking at him seeingthe signs, seeing the symptoms,
and it went on for a few monthsand I finally said I think I
think you're depressed, right,this is before he ever did his
first mushroom journey, which wedon't have to get into that.
But he did his first mushroomjourney because he was depressed

(20:20):
, not because he was trying toget sober.
Oh shit, I don't know if youknew that.
I don't know why I do that.
No, he did it because he wasdepressed and he wanted out of
it.
He didn't like it.
So I was like, I came to him,he's opening up to me and I was
like yeah, I think you'redepressed.
He's like no, I'm not sad.
And I'm like I think you have avery big misunderstanding of

(20:42):
what depression actually is,like I can see it in you.
And it took him going to hisdoctor, who's a male, and his
doctor prescribing himWellbutrin and saying I think
you're depressed.
For him to come home and belike I think I'm depressed.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Did he take Wellbutrin?
He didn't.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
No he's always been very anti medication for himself
, because his mother is veryhighly medicated and even with
me being on medication at first,he was like hesitant, like
that's why I didn't take it fora while.
Because he was like maybe ifyou start working out, maybe if

(21:22):
you start going outside more,maybe if you start journaling,
like you know, he did try tohelp when nothing helped and
nothing helped because I was ina toxic relationship and not a
safe environment to feel myfeelings Right.
So, yeah, I ended up I want tosay caving, I don't think of it
that way now.
But I caved and I was just like, fuck it, I'm going on meds,

(21:45):
give it that way now.
But I caved and I was just likefucking, I'm going on meds.
Um, so yeah, interesting,because he asked me to guide him
on a mushroom journey becausehe was depressed and he didn't
want to be depressed anymore andit pulled him out of it.
Pulled him out of that, butthen it started to show him his
shit yeah and life for him gotmuch harder afterwards.
So, anyway, I didn't want, Ididn't mean to like.

(22:06):
That's what I'm like.
This is a really big episode.
I don't know how we're going todo this.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, I feel like this might be a long one.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
I don't know.
I'm so sorry.
It's.
It's just an interesting, it'san.
It's a very large topic, but Ithink it needs to be talked
about.
So, um, after my first round oflike postpartum depression,
getting on medication, weaningoff after six months um, it felt

(22:35):
like it had gone away.
And then it came back a fewyears later.
Um, like right before COVID hit, came back and in my mind I'm
thinking, okay, well, it's notpostpartum anymore, this is just
depression.
Like I could feel it and itfelt the same and I was like

(22:59):
well, I guess I am just going tohave this on and off the rest
of my life now and it's just theway I am, and it's a chemical
imbalance and something is wrongwith me.
So, like, every time I startfeeling depressed, I'm going to
start, I'm going to go back onthe meds for a little while and

(23:20):
then wean myself off.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
I so relate to that feeling of doom.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
This is just how I am .

Speaker 2 (23:26):
This is just how it's going to be.
This is just how I'm going tofeel.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, and it comes and goes Sure and that's just
kind of what I thought, thatlike it was going to be for the
rest of my life, like I'm justgoing to be this person who
comes in and out of depressiveepisodes, this person who comes
in and out of depressiveepisodes.
And the weird thing is like thesecond time around I knew it, I
could feel it.
I could feel it as it wasalmost like this, like wave

(23:52):
coming towards me and I couldn'tlike escape it.
I was like I could feel itcoming.
There's nothing I can do aboutit.
Here we go again, you know.
And then about six months afterthat is when I did my first
mushroom journey somebody we hadsomebody on a podcast
previously who was talking aboutmushrooms and mental health and

(24:14):
depression and anxiety, and Iwas like it blew my fucking mind
and we've said it before, youhad a podcast about cannabis.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
I wasn't the co-host, but you were all the cannabis
trained and now I'm not.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
I'm not like a hater no, no, no At all Like I just
don't use it the way I used touse it.
Well, you used to use it as anescape.
Yes, a hundred percent.
I started to realize I wasdoing exactly what my husband
was doing, just in a differentway.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
I think too, like intention, with everything,
matters so much, whether it's asubstance, it's literally
everything in your life.
Intention matters.
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
About.
That was interesting.
Side note Um, a couple of weeksago I was at the track with a
group of friends and the personwho was working in our um um
suite who was just like kind ofthe hostess, um, doing all the
food and the drinks and stuff,for some reason we got talking
about anxiety and she was likeyou know, they make, they make

(25:18):
meds for that.
And she wasn't talking to me,but then the conversation kind
of went on from there.
She was like see, the trick is,though, don't take them too
long, wean off of them, becauseotherwise you'll get addicted
and you'll stay on them for therest of your life because
they'll just keep upping yourdose.
And so even her view of likebeing on the medication to help

(25:41):
with anxiety was just like don'tstay on them too long, wean
yourself off.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
But I also think that's much easier said than
done.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's absolutely much easier said than done, but I was
just like good for you for notlike Right, just saying just use
this for the rest of your life,yeah, and up your dose when it
stops working and try this onewhen that one stops working, and
maybe if you try this one ontop of this one that'll work,
you know.
So I like what she said aboutit, but to me that was like
intention matters.

(26:08):
So if you have to have it, okay, maybe you don't have a safe
space, maybe you don't have anenvironment where you can feel
like you can work through theseissues, and medication is like
the only option that you have.
But for me personally, what Iwould believe, and now that,
looking back, I would say getyourself into a position where

(26:32):
you can work through thosethings, find a safe place, get a
safe environment, removeyourself from the toxic
environment so you can work onthose things and heal those
things.
So, anyway, I was going to readsomething that I wrote.
I feel like we have severalthings that we have.
I remember this.

(26:52):
Okay, so I wrote this after mysecond mushroom journey, which
came about a year after my firstone, so 2021, this was October
21 that I wrote this and I justhad all of these realizations
about depression because I didmy second journey, because I was

(27:13):
in a depressive episode again.
I was like what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, so you were in probably the worst depressive
episode you've ever had.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Because of, like Jason was deep in his addiction.
There was a lot of like you didnot have a good environment
around you.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, and, and if I can rewind a little bit, um, I
did my first journey June of2021 or June of 2020.
My husband did not get soberuntil June of 2021.
A few months after his firstjourney.
So a year later, he gets soberand I start slipping into like

(27:56):
one of the worst depressiveepisodes of my life.
And it didn't make sense to meat the time, Cause I'm like he's
getting sober, what the fuck iswrong with me?
And our psychiatrist, dr Shealydude.
My man said to me well, itmakes sense to me because it's

(28:17):
like you've been holding yourbreath for 15 years and you're
finally able to let go andbreathe, and so all of this
stuff is coming up that you'vebeen avoiding and suppressing
because you've just been insurvival mode.
So I never thought of it thatway, but I that's exactly as
soon as he said that, I was like, oh my God, that makes so much

(28:39):
sense because now he's doing thework.
But all this shit that I'vebeen like pushing down and
pushing down and pushing down isstarting to come up because
it's starting to get safe.
That's something I don't thinkpeople talk about enough is how

(29:01):
much comes up when you're in it,when you are finally in a safe
environment, oh my god yeah withsomeone who's safe in a safe
household like that's when allthis shit starts to surface,
because you wouldn't be able tosurvive if it was just like all
the time right even now I could.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
I could feel myself getting emotional because it's a
it's a heavy topic and it'ssomething that I never used to
ever talk about.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Well, you said just right then, like you had a safe
space, right.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
And you didn't Like I feel safe to share it now.
I didn't feel safe to share itbefore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I thinkyou know even me crying, like
oftentimes when, when that comesup, people feel like, oh, my
God, I'm crying, you know, andI'm like no, but you need to cry
.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Right, you should cry , let it out.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Right, Like was traumatic for you and so like
suppressing it doesn't work, butanyways even when you think it
does.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
It doesn't, even when you think it does like even my
husband used to say well, what'sthe point of feeling it?
That's not productive.
I've got to, I've got to livemy life, I've got to do my job,
I've got to take care of my kids, I got to take care of my
family, and I'm like you saythat, but it keeps showing up.
It keeps showing up in theseother areas of your life, and so

(30:32):
, while you think you're doing areally good job of like packing
it away and there's no point inlooking at it, I see it, I can
see it.
Still, you may not, but thepeople around you do, the people
who love you do you know?
Yeah, so after my second journey, which was when I was like in

(30:54):
the lowest depressive episode ofmy life, because I was able to
let go and finally breathe and Iwas finally safe, and what's
wild is like I felt safe enoughto like let it out, like I was
having, like I don't even it.
They felt bigger to me thanpanic attacks.
They felt bigger than ananxiety attack.

(31:16):
They were like full blown, justmental breakdowns where I
wanted to be hospitalizedbecause I didn't know how to
stop them and my husband didn'tknow what was going on.
And I was like oh, it terrifiedhim.
Yeah, I think you needed to seeit though.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Um, I mean, that's what got him sober Like cause.
He was just like oh shit, I'mhurting someone.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
I didn't realize that I was doing this Right.
So, yeah, those were the thingsthat I was like pushing down.
Anyway, see, now I'm likegetting emotional.
Jesus Christ, this is gonna bea tough one, Okay.
So I wrote this out because Ijust had this different view of
what depression was for me.
I said hear me out.
What if depression and anxietyis your body telling you that

(32:05):
there's some healing you need todo.
It's begging you to address it,to feel it and to learn from it
.
What if my postpartum depressionwasn't just triggered because I
had had a baby, but because Ihad had unhealed mother wounds
that were magnified when I had adaughter of my own, and that
the mother-daughter relationshipI craved my entire life was

(32:27):
just triggered and sent me intoa spiral of emotions I wasn't
prepared for that's interestingtoo, because I had two boys and
I didn't feel it until I had her.
But I had some deep, deepmother wounds, yeah, Um, and
also like taking a step back andseeing my relationship for what
it was and realizing like Iwould never want my daughter to

(32:50):
be treated the way that I wastreated ever.
I don't know how to explain it,but it's different with boys.
It's not because I didn't like.
I felt like having her was likereliving my childhood.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Oh, I get that.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Well, and for me, like I have a lot of deep father
wounds, yeah, and mother wounds, but you know.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
We got both.
You know we're just a bag oftricks over here.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
So, you know, having a child has like, in a lot of
ways it's can be very triggering, because you see this little
innocent child, innocent child,and you're like, oh shit, I got
treated in certain ways or wasexposed to certain things or
experienced certain things.
I like literally can't imaginemy son experiencing those things

(33:48):
or not sitting with him and hisfeelings, or you know it's this
blessing and a curse, becauseit's you feel a deep amount of
grief.
Yeah, becoming a mother, yeah,because you didn't get those
things, yes, and you're givingthose things.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
It's okay.
This is kind of what I'm saying.
Like that postpartum is likereally like a reflection of,
like, maybe something you didn'thave as a child and realizing,
like realizing you didn't Iunderstand, I understand, it's
okay.
You want me to keep going?

(34:31):
Okay, you're right, though,like it's you know, I saw the
way that I finally like woke upto how I was being treated and I
was just like I can't imaginemy daughter like being in a
relationship like this or havingthe childhood that I had, or

(34:51):
and again, it's not that Ididn't think that with my boys,
but, like you know, I did mybest to like give them a
different life, but it was justthat daughter hit me in my
wounds.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
I also think too that , like when you had your boys,
you were just surviving.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Oh, I was in it so deep I didn't know what I was in
.
Right, I did not know.
I didn't wake up to what I wasin until I did.
Mushrooms.
Yeah, those are the.
Show you your shit, and let me,let me remove that veil for you
so you can get a glimpse ofwhat your life is really like,
and not what you thought it was.
And that really fucked my worldup.

(35:28):
It really fucking did, Okay.
So, um, what if?
What if becoming a parentbrings out our inner child and
the pain that we felt?
That was never acknowledged.
How can you heal from somethingwhen you keep telling yourself
there isn't anything to healfrom?
What if, instead of prescribingyour medications at the first

(35:49):
sign of depression, your doctorsuggests you see a therapist or
a psychiatrist or get helpinstead?
What if they actually asked youwhat you've been going through,
what your childhood was like,what kind of trauma you've
experienced, the whys, the deepstuff that we don't even like to
ask ourselves?
What if, instead of acceptingthat it runs in your family and
it's genetic, maybe it's therebecause of the generations of

(36:10):
trauma and pain that have beenignored or swept under the rug
and no one has been able to healfrom them yet because they
didn't know how.
What if you're the one who'ssupposed to break that cycle?
What if breaking that cyclemeans your children won't have
to feel all the things you felt?
They have better coping skills.
They don't repeat the patternsyou did.
They recognize the red flagssooner.

(36:30):
They know how to heal.
Now I'm going to cry.
I kind of wrote this like threeyears ago and it still hits.
What if we have to go in to getout of it?
We're so busy trying to get outof our heads.
But what if the answer is there?

(36:52):
What if you can't fix yourmarriage or your relationships
because you're working with twobroken parts and until you fix
those individually, nothing willever be as good as a whole?
What if you can both heal at thesame time but you have to
unlearn patterns you've bothbeen holding onto for a very
long time?
And what if we can't healbecause there are people in our

(37:14):
lives holding us back and thosepeople are hard to let go of
Maybe their family, lifelongfriends, spouses or significant
others?
What if, instead of medicatingor drinking and disassociating
and smoking yes, I said thatbecause at the time I was
smoking staying busy andignoring the trauma to get out
of our heads.
We ask ourselves how we canmove through them and heal from

(37:35):
them, Ask ourselves where thepain is coming from and we ask
ourselves why we continue tolive the same things over and
over.
Why are we so okay withpretending we're okay when we're
not?
Why are we going through themotions of life of living but
dying inside?
That's all I wrote.
And then I said this wasshortly after my journey and I

(37:56):
said one day I'll document andmaybe share.
Who knew that?
I know right now I'm stillprocessing, integrating, living.
My first experience withmushrooms changed me.
My last one saved me.
I found myself again when Ithought I had lost her.
I realized that, as much as Ifeared abandonment, I had been

(38:17):
abandoning myself.
It helped me understandparenting my inner child,
something I didn't want to dobecause I didn't think it was
fair.
We'll talk about that.
It taught me how to love myselfenough to want better, and I
deserved better than what I hadbeen allowing.
So what's interesting is thatsame summer, a study came out

(38:40):
proving proving Can, yes, shareit.
That depression is not achemical imbalance.
It's not.
Let me tell you why.
They will prescribe you SSRIsand SNRIs that are pumping you

(39:01):
full of serotonin, because theyhave always said depression is a
lack of serotonin.
And what they have found inthis study when studies come out
like this, they've been workingon them for decades, They've
been trying to find the prooffor decades.
It's not just on a whim.

(39:22):
This study came out.
They have been working on thisfor a very long time and they
were finally able to prove thatdepression has nothing to do
with serotonin.
You can have high levels ofserotonin and still have
depression.
So, knowing that and here'swhat's wild the study came out
in July of 2021.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Nobody's talking about it.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Nobody's talking about it.
So my question is you know why?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Because I feel like it doesn't fit the agenda Right
and again.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
It's like when we had our episode on MDMA and Oprah
did the episode where it putsholes in your brain and she
didn't do the episode thatdebunked that.
Right, it's like, oh, butthat's not getting talked about.
Right, the other side of it'snot getting talked about.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Well, and we are a pill pushing society.
Yeah, that's the world that welive in, so something like that.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
And knowing what I know now and how it made me feel
I can see why people push it.
Yeah, like it removes yourempathy in situations.
Now, and how it made me feel Ican see why people push it.
Yeah, like you, it, it it.
It removes your empathy insituations that I think that
that's why we are such a worldwho is like, lacking empathy.
You think you're empathetic butyou're not.
It removes that like it, it it.

(40:43):
Oh, I can't even describe itlike I had no empathy for what
happened in that movie.
I was very apathetic to whatwas going on in my life, but I,
but I was complacent I do likehow you're like, no, but usually
like you had enoughself-awareness where you're like
usually something like thiswould make me sob because I

(41:04):
would feel so sad for what'shappening and I don't feel that.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Why don't I feel that ?
Right, I think sometimes it maybe hard for people to recognize
that because they're so deep init.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
And I also think that some people feel like it's not
good to cry yeah, a lot.
Well, yeah, we're a society,like I said we don't like
feelings.
Yeah, and, and I'm in a verydifferent place now and I will
cry 10 times a day and it's not,it's nothing.
What did?
You say Nothing, what did yousay the other?

Speaker 2 (41:33):
day.
Uh, our friend Sarah was likeare you about to cry?

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh yeah, and you're like she goes, are you okay?
I was like no no, you go yeah.
Yeah and she goes.
You look like you're about tocry and I was like I am, and
then I just started bawling.
But we were both laughing aboutit because she was like, are
you okay?
And I was like, yes, I'm justgoing to cry.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Well, and also like even me crying earlier, like I
feel, like I feel better that Ireleased it Right you know what
I mean Instead of holding it inCause I could feel myself
holding it in.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
I just I think it makes people really
uncomfortable because they justwant to fix it.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
But also they're uncomfortable because they're
uncomfortable with their ownfeelings.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Right so you having feelings is very uncomfortable
for someone who is emotionallyunavailable in a relationship is
not able to sit with their ownemotions.
It has nothing to do with you.
It's because they'reemotionally unavailable for
themselves.
So, like all that crying andlike they're like, I don't cry,
I don't do that.
I can't remember the last timeI cried, right, well, that's not

(42:43):
what are you what are you?
stuffing.
What are you avoiding?
Like we are meant to feel, likewe're meant to have emotions
and to feel things deeply.
So, um, where was I going withthat?
The chemical imbalance?
The chemical imbalance, it'snot a thing.

(43:04):
So again, I'm not on here likehating on anybody who's on
medications.
I just want people to thinkabout what they're doing, and
why.
Because if you're being toldthat you have a chemical
imbalance and it's genetic andit's passed down from mother to

(43:26):
grant, from grandmother tomother to you, or grandfather to
father to you, and you justbelieve it, then of course
you're gonna be like oh well,then this pill will help me
because it'll help fix thatimbalance.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
But to that I say depression isn't passed down.
No, trauma is passed down.
Yes, yes, and you know grandmawas traumatized because of this,
this and that, and then didn'thave the tools, didn't have the
knowledge, didn't have thesupport.
None of those things pass itdown to mom.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Grandma was sad because she stuffed it down.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Well, and think about this, Think about being raised
by a depressed mom, and thenwhat your experience may be like
yeah, so it's not necessarilythat it's passed down
genetically, it's just thatthat's what you're around.
Think about like being raisedby a traumatized adult.
Right, it's all, it's what.

(44:24):
You've never done anything todeal or heal with it.
And again I'm I gave a lot ofcompassion to the older
generations because they didn'thave the tools, right.
But we have better tools, wehave the tools and we have the
knowledge.
They didn't have the knowledge.
We have Tik TOK the knowledge.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
We have tiktok, we have podcasts there's us.
We have people out there givingdifferent information, and it's
the information is out therewhen you're searching for it.
It's not hidden either, likeit's right.
It's out there, right?

Speaker 2 (45:00):
but going back to like, sometimes people choose,
because I've gotten in argumentswith people about this, about
what about like.
Well, it's just, it's just howI am it's just a chemical
imbalance yes, and I'm like youthink that way, because you're
searching for things to validatethat right.
So that's shown to not be trueanymore.

(45:25):
But you're not willing to seethat because it doesn't go with
what you want it to be Right.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Which that's a whole other thing.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
But so, yeah, there's just a lot of information out
there.
That's that's kind of provingotherwise, and I think the
generational trauma that issomething that can be passed
down.
Coping skills can be learned,but they can also be unlearned,
and so that's another thing.

(45:56):
I'm giving examples and I havethe same things, but I still do.
We all do.
We have coping skills that welearned and that we picked up
and behaviors.
But I'm giving this examplebecause it's such an easy one.
But my husband would give methe silent treatment when I was
upset with him.

(46:16):
Oh yeah, and so, because I haveabandonment issues, I would
like to get that connection backbecause he was giving me the
silent treatment.
I would apologize for beingupset to get that connection
back because he was giving methe silent treatment.
I would apologize for beingupset and it would fix the
connection.
I thought Like it wasn't realbut it would fix it.

(46:37):
Yeah, I was gonna say it was afalse connection, it was a false
connection, but I feltconnection because I didn't want
him to take it away from me.
It was almost like a punishment.
And it wasn't until the lastseveral years that I watched and
I saw where he got it from.
And he got it from his mom andhis mom would give the silent
treatment when she was upset,but wouldn't tell you why, and

(46:58):
so that, like that's what helearned, right, it's learned
behavior, it's it's like if I'mupset I'm just not going to talk
to her.
Right's not upset anymore.
And until she can talk to me,until she apologizes to me, I'm
just not going to talk to her.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
And so I was like picking up on all these patterns
of behavior and being able topinpoint where they came from in
myself too, right, right, andit just kind of like it fucked
me up a little bit, because wehad to do a lot of work to
unlearn that for me to be like,no, you can't give me the silent

(47:41):
treatment.
You've got to communicate withme If I'm upset.
Or if you're upset with me,tell me why, so I can understand
it and not do it anymore, or wecan have a conversation about
it.
You know, post drinking,pre-drinking, I'm like I didn't
do anything wrong for being madthat you stayed out all night,
you know whatever it's hard tounlearn, I think, I think, I

(48:03):
think healing is a lot ofunlearning.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
I think healing is a lot of unlearning.
It's so much unlearning andunbecoming, yeah, and undoing
and just being.
But I watched a father who gotangry and people were scared or
intimidated and so I thoughtthat was like power, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
And use that.
Yeah, I can see how people getstuck in that because it does
feel anger is very powerful.
It feels very powerful, but theway I see it now is very
different, because I'm like,actually, you're really sad.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
There's so much grief under there.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Like you're not angry , You're sad.
Let's talk about it.
I know, I know.
Like what, what?
What are you?
What are you running from?
Yeah, Like what are you hiding?

Speaker 2 (48:55):
We're also.
We're also really conditionedto not talk.
We're conditioned to not talk,we're conditioned to not feel,
and so now I feel like we havemore tools than we've ever had.
But also mental health is sucha big issue.
Right now.
I see so many teens who aremedicated and struggling and and

(49:21):
again like we have all of thisat our fingertips.
So why?
Why is this a problem?

Speaker 1 (49:27):
I wonder that sometimes, and I think that,
like, maybe my algorithm isdifferent, like I feel like
we're so in this space, andsometimes I think, what is
common knowledge for us?
Someone else has never heard aday in their lives, and so that
makes me really sad.

(49:49):
Yeah, that's true, it reallydoes, because it's not the stuff
that's being put out there,it's the stuff you kind of have
to go digging for, um, or bearound people who, who know
these things, Um, so, yeah, it's, it's sad the way I see
depression now, and I I think Isaid something to you about this

(50:10):
because I sent you a real um onInstagram because I was like I
feel this way but I've nevertalked about it because I don't
know why I feel this way.
And then I just heard someoneelse say the same thing about
depression and I was like, oh,I'm not the only one who feels
that.
Okay, what was it?
I'll remember it was the Are weman Enough podcast, I think.

(50:31):
And he was like asking him todescribe depression or like what
depression as a man feels like,and the way that he was
describing it is the way that Ifeel about it.
I'm like I think it's normaland natural to feel these things
.
And let me go back, because weinterviewed our friend Allie,

(50:53):
who was talking about after herfirst mushroom journey.
She went into like a depressiveepisode and was like staying in
, and I remember when I firstand to someone on the outside,
they would look at me and thinkI was depressed again because I

(51:15):
was isolating, I was keeping tomyself.
From the outside it probablylooked very similar, but I was
like, no, this is different,though.
I'm going into my feels and I'mfeeling them because I know
it's going to come and go andthen I'm going to come out fresh
and renewed.
So if you don't hear from me,I'm okay.

(51:37):
But like if I was depressed, Iwouldn't have been.
Does that make sense?
So it looks similar.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
But I think when you, you like, start doing the work,
a lot of things come up, a lotof realizations come up, and
they're heavy and there's a lotof grief that comes with it, and
so it's okay and you need tofeel it and you know you're
going to be okay, but they'restill heavy.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
So that's kind of where my stance is now.
Like I'm like now I don't evenknow if I would call them
depressive episodes, because youknow.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I would call them depressive episodes because you
know they'll come and they'll go.
But I know now spiritualawakenings?

Speaker 1 (52:18):
no, I don't.
I think it's just some thingsthat I need to sit through.
Yeah, sit, sit in for a littlebit, yeah, and then come out of
when I'm done.
So to me, I'm not getting stuckin the depression, I'm feeling
what I need to feel.
It's like a calling to like nowwe're going to go do some more

(52:40):
work, like you did this workover here, but like now, this
stuff is coming up and you needto sit with this and you need to
understand it and you need toprocess it and you need to feel
it so we can work through it.
So, like now, it's almost likean invitation to go in.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, and I do it because Iknow I'm going to find my way

(53:01):
back out.
I think a lot of people don'tsee it that way and they try to
get rid of it.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
That and I think a lot of people like when we say
you know, you got to feel toheal, I think a lot of people
there it's that's such a foreignconcept to them.
They're like I don't, I don'teven know where to start.
I got to go to work, I got mykids, I got this like I got that
.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
I don't have time to do that Right.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
So what would you say to somebody who said that or
thought that?

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Oh God, that's a hard one, because I feel like, yes,
it does take time, but I feellike if you don't do it, like
it's going to just keep bleedingon the rest of your life and
it's going to keep gettinglouder and it's going to keep

(53:59):
getting harder to ignore.
So like, why not set aside time?
It doesn't mean you don't haveto go to work, it doesn't mean
you don't have to live your life, but maybe don't go out on the
weekends and drink with yourfriends.
Maybe isolate a little bit,maybe don't.
Maybe isolate a little bit,maybe don't.

(54:22):
I think when I isolate, I don'thang out with people a lot, and
I think that before old mewould have never said no to
plans and I would have hadsomething going on every weekend
, and so now I am okay withsitting at home and working on
my shit, so I can be better whenI come out of it.
I think a lot of people don'tknow how to say no to those

(54:44):
things.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
I have Jomo, the joy of missing out Jomo, jomo.
I do not have FOMO, I have Jomo.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Oh my God, like you're totally fine, I feel like
I'm fine with like missing outon things too.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I used to.
I used to want to miss out butthen get pressured into doing
things.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
So I did where now I'm like actually I'm fine.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
God, that doesn't sound like it's a bad thing.
Okay.
So we have another screenshotthat I wanted to say let me.
Let me see if it's like okay,I'm gonna read this first.
Okay, because this kind of goesalong with what I'm saying.
Um, I, I hyper fixate on booksthat I feel like changed my life

(55:32):
.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
I don't think that's bad.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
No, I don't think it's bad, but I I feel like I
recommend this book a lot.
It's kind of like with the fouragreements and the alchemist.
I'm like these are the booksthat changed my life, Like this
is one of them, and there is afinished it.
Yeah, I'm going through itagain and I'm like highlighting.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Okay, I'm going through it again and I'm
highlighting.
Okay, I'm going to literallybuy it today.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Yeah, it's so, so, so good.
Yeah, I'd let you borrow it,but I'm kind of a book whore and
I'm stingy with it.
So this is called the Heroine'sJourney A Woman's Quest for
Wholeness.
And then, part of the Heroine'sJourney, we will have someone
who talks about this.

(56:15):
Um, there's the separation fromthe feminine, identification
with the masculine and gatheringof allies.
The road of trials, finding theillusionary boon of success,
awakening to feelings ofspiritual aridity, initiation
and descent to the goddess.
That's the part I'm about toread.
The initiation urgent yearningto reconnect with the feminine,

(56:39):
healing the mother-daughtersplit, healing the wounded
masculine, and then theintegration of the masculine and
the feminine feminine.
So there's like steps to thisjourney.
It's not linear.
You can be on this step andthen this step and then this
step, and then, like you, can beon multiple steps at then, this
step and then this step, andthen, like you can be on
multiple steps at once.
But the initiation and thedescent is what I want to read

(56:59):
about.
I'm really sorry.
Story time.
Okay, the descent ischaracterized as a journey to
the underworld, the dark nightof the soul, the belly of the
whale, the meeting of the darkgoddess, or simply as depression
.
It is usually precipitated by alife-changing loss.
Experiencing the death of one'schild, parent or spouse, with

(57:22):
whom one's life and identity hasbeen closely intertwined, may
mark the beginning of thejourney to the underworld.
Women often make their descentwhen a particular role, such as
daughterhood, motherhood, loveror spouse, comes to an end.
A life-threatening illness oraccident, the loss of
self-confidence or livelihood, ageographical move, the

(57:45):
inability to finish a degree, aconfrontation with the grasp of
an addiction or a broken heartcan open the space for
dismemberment and dissent.
The journey to the underworldis filled with confusion and
grief, alienation anddisillusion, rage and despair.
A woman may feel naked andexposed, dry and brittle, or raw

(58:05):
and turned inside out.
I felt this way while fightingadvanced cervical dysplasia,
during the dissolution of mymarriage and when I lost
confidence in myself as anartist.
Each time I had to face truthsabout myself and my world that I
wish not to see, and each timeI was chastened and cleansed by
the fires of transformation.
In the underworld, there's nosense of time.

(58:28):
Time is endless and you cannotrush your stay.
There's no morning, day ornight.
It is densely dark andunforgiving.
This all-pervasive blackness ismoist, cold and bone-chilling.
There are no easy answers inthe underworld and there is no
quick way out.
Silence pervades when thewailing ceases, one is naked and
walks on the bones of the deadTo the outside world.

(58:51):
A woman who has begun herdescent is preoccupied, sad and
inaccessible.
Her tears often have no name,but they are ever present,
whether she cries or not.
She cannot be comforted.
She feels abandoned.
She forgets things.
She chooses not to see friends.
She curls up in a ball on thecouch or refuses to come out of

(59:12):
her room.
She digs in the earth or walksin the woods.
The mud and the trees becomeher companions.
She enters a period ofvoluntary isolation, seen by her
family and friends as a loss ofher senses.
Several years ago, in the midstof a lecture on the heroine's
journey that I was giving at CalState, long Beach, a woman in

(59:33):
the back of the lecture hallraised her hand and impatiently
interrupted me.
When I mentioned voluntaryisolation, she cried out you've
just named what I've been goingthrough the past nine months.
Everyone turned their heads tosee the woman in her late 40s
rise from her chair with dignity.
Up until this time I was theowner and chief executive of a

(59:54):
large design firm pulling downover $200,000 a year.
And one day I went into workand I just didn't know who I was
anymore.
I looked in the mirror and Ididn't recognize the woman
looking back at me.
I was very disoriented.
I left work, went home andnever went back again.
She goes into her story but it'skind of similar, so I'm not
going to read all that.
She goes into her story butit's kind of similar, so I'm not

(01:00:16):
going to read all that.
Um, she had just spoken a truththat every woman who has made
the descent knows.
Women find their way back tothemselves not by moving up and
out into the light like men, butby moving down into the depths
of the ground of their being.
Her metaphor of digging theearth to find her way back to
herself expresses a woman'sinitiation process.
The spiritual experience forwomen is of moving more deeply

(01:00:38):
into yourself rather than out ofyourself.
Many women describe the need toremove themselves from the male
realm during this period ofvoluntary isolation.
Okay, I read this and I waslike like that's exactly how I
feel I have looked at depressionrecently.

(01:00:58):
Is this is the descent intohealing?
So and I do it willingly now,like it's not comfortable, but I
voluntarily isolate and I workmy shit out, and I think you do
too.

(01:01:19):
Like, where I think we'regetting it wrong is so many
people try to avoid that they'refeeling the initiation, but
they're doing everything theycan to avoid it because you know
what we're told to do.
And this is why the episodewith Allie kind of reminded me
of this Her sister's calling herand telling her like you just

(01:01:40):
got to go, you just got to do,just get out and go somewhere
and get out and meet people.
And Allie kept saying I justwant to be Like I don't want to
do, don't want to do.
And so so many people try totalk us out of the being and the
descending and the figuring itout.

(01:02:00):
Just be happy, just go out andhave fun, go spend some time
with your friends.
Like go do this, go out here, godo this, go exercise.
And while I believe thatexercise and movement helps when
it is real, when it is like adepression and a call to like

(01:02:21):
the dark side of your shit, likethere's no escaping it, like
you can't medicate it away, youcan't run from it, you can't
avoid it, you can't smoke itaway, what you're supposed to do
is just be in it, go in, andthat's really hard for us as a
society and it's not what we'vebeen taught.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Yeah, so that was my little added touch, I know and
it's funny because, like, I havenot read that book, but that's
like what I naturally do.
Now, that's right, right, likeI know it's going to be okay.
That's why I know, like comingout on the other end, yes, I'm

(01:03:05):
going to be fine.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
That's why, when I saw that guy talk about what
depression meant for him, I waslike I have felt that, but I
didn't know how to explain it.
And then, same reading this him, I was like I have felt that,
but I didn't know how to explainit.
And then, same reading thisbook, I was like, oh my God, I
do that now.
Like when I feel the call todescend, like I just go.
I don't want to say willingly,because we know like we know

(01:03:30):
when it's coming and we knowit's going to be really hard,
but like we don't run from itthe way that we used to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
yeah, I'm gonna read that book and so what I've been
doing with tony is we read likeI literally read to him and it's
it's very healing and it's likeso it's like it's collaborative
and we're taught like we'lllike.
Right now we're reading us byterrence real, which I highly,

(01:03:57):
highly, highly recommend forcouples, um, but it's like we'll
read, he'll be, it's atherapist, um, who works with
couples, and he'll be saying,like some of the patients that
he has and like what theirstruggles are, and I'm like, oh,
my gosh, it makes me think ofthis person, or this person or
myself, or whatever, and we talkand it's like collaborative,

(01:04:21):
and so this is next on our list.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Yeah, it's a good one because because the heroine's
journey, while this book is likea woman's quest for wholeness,
men go through this too.
Like just like women go throughthis too.
Like, just like women gothrough the hero's journey, men
also go through the heroine'sjourney and they also connect
with, like, the divine feminineand heal the divine masculine.
And you know so, this would bea really good one for you guys.

(01:04:43):
Yeah, yeah, especially as afather of daughters, I know so I
love that you guys do that.
Sometimes, when we talk aboutour relationships now on the
podcast, like we sound likethose cheesy couples and I just
need everybody to know thatthat's not the way we used to be
.
We've had to like create that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
No, I trained him right right, I trained him, that
is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
That's my puppy you did a good job, a great job.
You did too.
I too, I know I created my safe.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
But I think, I think the women started yes and and
women start the healing.
Yeah, that whole, like I thinkthat's that's our role as women,
Like we have the opportunity tostart the movement.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Well, and the thing that I wrote, where it said,
like, even though you don't feellike it's fair, like we didn't
touch on that, but like, well,let's touch on it.
Let's touch on it before youspeak to that thing, because
when you realize you have to bethe one to do the work, even
though you were the one who wastraumatized and hurt, there is
an air of why should I have todo all this?

(01:05:55):
This is really hard.
It's not fair.
The other people don't have todo anything to mend this.
I have to do this.
That's not fair.
Yeah, and you said the samething.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Oh, I was, I was, was .
I was angry that I was like I'mgonna do it, I'm gonna do the
work, but it just pisses me offthat I'm the one that has to
fucking do this and they don'thave to do this and they don't
have to do this and they don'thave to do this.
Where now that has changed?
yes, especially after my lastjourney where it was like

(01:06:32):
experiencing all of theancestral trauma, where it was
like this person was raped, youknow feeling the trauma of
childbirth, you know, thisperson grew up with an addict
this, this, this, this, this,like so much that got passed
down, um, where it was like no,let that go because you get to

(01:06:54):
do this.
They didn't have the tools,they didn't have the knowledge.
Whatever it was, you do and youwere the chosen one to get to
change the narrative of thisfamily lineage.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
That is exactly how I feel about it now, because,
because you and I and the peoplewe love are doing the work, the
people who aren't I feel reallybad for yeah, because I'm
because and and it's not like a,it's, this isn't fair thing
anymore, this is, it's almostlike a.
You could do this too, and Ifeel really bad that you're not,

(01:07:33):
because you're miserable andyou make everyone around you
miserable and that's sad, yeah,and it doesn't have to be that
way, right?
So that whole like this isn'tfair thing.
Now I see it very different.
Now I see it as, like I used tobe, like karma doesn't ever
come after them, but it doesn'tever come after them.
Why doesn't karma ever work?

(01:07:53):
And it's like, actually, no, itdoes.
They're suffering, they'resuffering, yeah, and I hate that
.
Right, I hate it.
But it's also like but youdon't have to, but you don't
want to do the work necessary.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Well, and it's all hard, yeah, it's all hard, right
.
And so before, when I wasn'tdoing anything because I didn't
know what to do, that was reallyhard, but it was a, it was a
comfortable hard, yeah, becauseit was what I knew, right, this
has also been hard, yeah,feeling things, facing myself,

(01:08:25):
facing these wounds, but it'sbeen worth it because of, like,
the peace that has come with it,the like I feel like I know
myself, I feel like I've beenable to unbecome things that
were conditioned in me and I'lltake that hard any day over that

(01:08:45):
hard well, it's like that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
You see that meme that goes around.
That's like divorce is hard,staying in a bad marriage it
it's hard.
Choose your hard.
And it like gives, like theseexamples, and it's like choose
your hard.
So it's like now I know tochoose the hard.
That's not the same as what Icontinue to choose, like, yes,
they're both hard, but if Ichoose this, nothing changes in

(01:09:10):
my life.
I'm going to choose the hard.
That makes things change.
Yeah, it's going to be reallyuncomfortable, but it's
different.
And if I'm going to choose thesame thing, nothing's going to
change, right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
So yeah, and it also like it gives you power.
It gives you your power backinstead of being powerless to
everything around you, like it'slike no, like this can change,
because I'm going to change.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Yeah, yeah, it's very empowering.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Okay.
So there was a post um from apsychologist and it's about
depression and I loved it and soI'm going to share it.
So she says depression is anatural response to the loss of
emotional intimacy,understanding depression as
grief.
We live in a hyper independentworld that glorifies not needing

(01:09:59):
anyone.
In reality, emotional intimacyis one of our greatest needs.
We're designed to depend onothers and to have others depend
on us.
Having secure friendships,family relationships and
romantic partnerships makes usmore physically healthy,
confident and resilient.
When we lose emotional intimacyfriendship or romantic the loss

(01:10:22):
is intense.
Our nervous system goes intofight or flight.
Depression or a free state inthe body is a natural response
to a loss of emotional intimacyin the body is a natural
response to a loss of emotionalintimacy.
Connection is so key to oursurvival that when we lose it,
stop eating, have no energy,cannot sleep.
The state of grieving is oftenpathological, path A lot.

(01:10:44):
Why can't I say that wordpathologically?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
path a lot, path pathologized pathologized Okay,
I didn't know what you'rereading Great job as a disorder
or something that's abnormal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
People who seemingly do well we were literally just
talking about that after theloss of a relationship tend to
be those who are disassociatedor who repress their emotions or
they move on quickly to escapethe discomfort that they feel.
Without fulfilling connectedrelationships with people we can
count on, depression will beour natural state.

(01:11:19):
Belonging and bonding are justas important to how we eat and
how often we move our bodies.
If you're ready to connect with, okay, nevermind.
Oh, yeah, that last one.
I.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
DM me Right there.
Okay, I just had this likevisual as you were saying all of
that.
Okay, because we said this fromthe beginning like it's like
about that having that emotionalsafety, and I do have that now.
I have the safety of my partnerwho allows me to like feel

(01:11:52):
these things and who isn'tgaslighting me into feeling
better.
But I also think about.
There are people that I knowwho are in a like a state of
depression, always Like I'vealways known them to be that way
.
I don't know them any other way,but they're always going out on

(01:12:14):
the weekends hanging out withtheir friends, and it's like you
need people, you need people,you need your friends.
So I'm hearing this and I'm inmy head visualizing how this
person sees like that.
That could be a good thing, butwhat I'm seeing in my head is
these friends being like see,we're having fun, we're not
depressed, be happy, you know.

(01:12:35):
And it's like no, that's notthe connection we're talking
about.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
That's not the friendships we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:12:42):
We're talking about the friend who you can sit down
with and talk to them about whatyou're going through and what
you're feeling, and who can likehold space for that without
talking you out of it.
Like I literally rememberhaving to like train Jason how

(01:13:03):
to hold like to hold space forme, and it was really hard for
him.
It was really hard because I'dhave to be like I don't need you
to fix it, I just want to talkabout it, I just need you to be
here, just be here, you don'tneed to fix it, you don't need
to say anything.
And then he'd like starttalking.
I'm like Nope, well, I think alot of men do that they're
fixers.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
They are fixers and I think they have to allow the
woman to have space to just feelWell.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
what did you say about men and women?
What did I say?
Women are the weather.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Oh, okay, here it is Okay.
So women are the weather, womenare.
It could be sunny, it could bewindy, it could be rainy, bitch,
that could be a fucking tornadoand some hail.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
I don't know, men are the sky and they hold space for
whatever is coming up.
I love that.
I love it too.
I love it.
Do you make that up?
No, oh, I was like so impressed.
I read it somewhere on Tik TOK.
Yeah, I saw it somewhere.
I love it, though, and I had tolike, train him to like.
That sounds terrible that I'msaying that, but it's true,
cause I had to be like I am justgoing through emotions and I
don't need you to do or say orfix anything, just let me go

(01:14:24):
through them.
And it's like it was a practice, because he would realize that
when he was able to do that,they would come and go Right and
then things would be fine,right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
And I know not all relationships are obviously
heterosexual Right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
But I think it's Masculine and feminine energies.
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, we all have both.
Right, I hold space for hisemotions, right, exactly when
he's having them.
That, too, like that, notfeeling like you don't need
anybody, that is a verymasculine trait, like I don't
care if you're female or male.
Oh, if you are like I don'tneed anybody and I don't need to

(01:15:05):
open up to people and I don'tneed anybody to witness me, like
that is a very in yourmasculine trait.
So the feminine is the one whois like, opening up to you or
allowing herself to bevulnerable, allowing themselves
to be vulnerable with somebody,and men have feminine and

(01:15:28):
masculine as well yes so justelaborate yeah, yeah as well.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Yes, so just want to elaborate.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Yeah, you got anything to add?
No, we didn't really touch onanxiety.
I don't know if we have time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:42):
Where are?

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
we at 119.
I mean we could we could?
It's going to be a little bitdifferent because I feel like
you and we don't have to go deep, deep into it because we've
talked about it before.
Yeah, like how.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
I'd never thought that I had depression.
I always thought it was justanxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
I think it was both.
You want me to be honest?
Yeah, which it's.
It's interesting that you wentto your OBGYN, because I did the
same thing, yeah, and she putme on benzos and I didn't take
them for a long time at all, um,and I didn't like them and and,

(01:16:27):
um, I don't even know where Iwas going with that, but but it
was.
There was a lot of things in mylife where I'm like, oh, I
understand why you felt that way, like I understand where you
had all of those feelings,because I wasn't connecting with
myself, I wasn't doing any workto heal from my traumas.

(01:16:48):
I like there was so much lossof connection, so I always just
felt off.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
And so now you look back and you're like that makes
sense yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Yeah, and so it's.
It's hard when you see peoplewho are in that space.
Yeah, Because you're like Iwill, I promise you, like I was
where you were and there is away out.
But it you, you have to go, youhave to connect with you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
And I don't know how to tell you to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
It's a really hard thing to tell somebody it's so
hard and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
It's especially like when you are around people and
it's they're in this hamsterwheel and you're like, do I hold
, just hold space for them, do Igive, like, do I offer them
lifelines.
But oftentimes, when they're inthat space, they're not.
They're not ready to accept thelifeline.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Those are the.
Those are, unfortunately, thoseare, unfortunately, those are
the types of friendships thatI've had to let go of.
What if?

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
they're not friendships.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
You mean what if they're like relationships, or
like what if they're like um?

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
you know what if they are family?

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
It's really hard.
It's really really hard.
It's hard to sit back and watchsomeone suffer when you know
they don't have to, but they areokay with it.
It's difficult.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Well, it's not even that they're okay with it
because they're not okay.
They're not okay, right Again,it's what they know and that's
their comfort over doing theunknown, uncomfortable thing.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
I have heard people say this is just how I am.
I've always lived this way.
I'm used to it.
I've heard a lot of people saythat yeah, and it may.
It breaks my heart because I'mlike that isn't who you are,
though, and there is a betterway to live and you don't have
to suffer with that.
Yeah, and it doesn't have to belike this every day.

(01:19:08):
Yeah, so it it.
It's heartbreaking, but I guesskind of went to what you were
saying, like when someone'sstuck in that hamster wheel and
you know there's like all theyhave to do is step off of it.
Like it's really frustratinghearing this person talk about
how hard the hamster wheel is Iknow it's very difficult, yeah,

(01:19:32):
but, and but you're right, causeI've I've also been like, but
I've been there too, like Iunderstand it, cause I've been
there also, I didn't know that Icould step off of it, right,
and I'm telling you you can.
It's like I'm getting this likeliteral hamster wheel visual.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
I'm too Cause.
It's really hard, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Have you?
Did you ever have anxiety?
I did, yeah.
Yeah, I had post postpartumdepression and anxiety, okay,
yeah.
So anxiety is weird for me nowand we we talked about this with
Allie too, and in that episode,like I, it's almost like.
It's kind of like the same wayI feel about depression, like
ask yourself why it's there, whyit's showing up where it's

(01:20:18):
showing up.
Like where in your life does itshow up more than than usual?
And sometimes it's like, well,I feel it when this person calls
me Right, okay, why do you feelthat way?
I don't know.
Well, are you settingboundaries?
Does?
Is that person right for you?
Is that person, is that personhighly anxious?

(01:20:41):
And it makes you feel anxiousbeing around that person?
Um, or is it showing up everytime you go to work?
Do you hate your job, like you,but you can't leave?
Do you hate your job, like you,but you can't leave?
You know, I feel like once youcan figure out what's causing it
, like it makes it a little biteasier to sit in.
Um, sometimes those are likeunavoidable, like my

(01:21:04):
relationship was causing me alot of anxiety and I had to make
changes and so did he, um, butthen there are the little things
that give me anxiety, likebeing in the car with my 16 year
old while he's learning todrive.
Well, yeah, right, and that'swhat she was saying.
She was like, well, that'sthere's.

(01:21:25):
There are some things that arejust unavoidably going to give
you anxiety.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Okay.
So I told you this morning Ihave really bad anxiety and I
don't see anxiety as a bad thinganymore.
I used to, um, I know I'm in asituation that's temporary, for
the next few days where, um, I'mnot in my comfort, so it makes

(01:21:50):
me feel a little anxious.
I know it's not forever andit's okay Like I'm, I'm okay
with sitting with it sitting in,a little anxious.
I know it's not forever andit's okay like I'm, I'm okay
with sitting with it sitting init because you know that in a
few days it's going to go away.
But so, like I never thought Iwas depressed, I always thought
I had just anxiety.
And then I did my firstmushroom journey and I didn't

(01:22:12):
have anxiety for a while.
But oftentimes people were like, oh, so you're, is your your
anxiety just gone, it healed it.
It healed it and I'm like, uh,no, um, I just know now, when
something like I can feel I'mmore connected to myself

(01:22:57):
no-transcript where now I don'thave panic attacks because I
know when the anxiety isstarting to creep up and I
usually know why.
I know it's a person, I knowit's a place where I feel

(01:23:19):
uncomfortable, I know it's.
You know, being around somebodywho's highly anxious, I like, I
know the situation and I knowwhen it creeps up.
So then I know what to do with,I know the why and then I know
like, okay, this is temporary.
Or if it's not temporary, whatdo I need to do?
Do?
I need to remove this friend?
Do I need to have boundarieswith this person?

(01:23:40):
Do I need to remove myself fromthis situation?
Like what needs to change?
So I think that anxiety can bean invitation on like what do I
need?
Why is it happening and whatdoes my body need in this moment
.
What do I need?

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
Paul Conti says I'm going to find this.
It's about anxiety.
Sorry, You're good.

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
But I think it's your body's way of telling you
something is up or off.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
This is what he says.
Okay, we all have anxiety.
If you think you don't look atwhere you're manic, anxiety is
an invitation to move andinitiation.
It's our body telling ussomething needs to change.
Look at where and when you arefeeling anxious.
Is there a theme?
Is it with work?
Is it with a friend, a partner,your family?
So literally exactly the samething that you were saying,

(01:24:43):
coming from a psychiatrist of 30years 30 plus years who's
written several books.
So you're not wrong.
These are just the ways.
The way that we're talking aboutthis is not the way that a lot
of people talk about it.
They're like well, it's normalto have anxiety, like here's
some medication so you don'thave it anymore, right, I think
it's like your body telling yousomething when something is off.

(01:25:04):
It's almost like an, a gutfeeling and intuition, I think.
Put a finger on what it is andthen you can like recognize it.
So I know that when I'm drivingmy son like when he's driving

(01:25:26):
and he's got to get his hours inI'm super anxious.
I've talked with my husbandabout it.
We're putting him in drivingclasses because I can't.
I'm like I will feel betterwhen he's a more comfortable
driver, but right now.
My anxiety is not good for himin the car Right, because then
he's on edge and I need him tobe comfortable.

(01:25:48):
But I can't like I am freakedout being in a car with a
16-year-old and I am just nowhaving this realization.
The first accident I was everin was when I was 16, with a
friend, with a group of friendsoh shit.
And it was the first time thatI was allowed in a car with

(01:26:10):
somebody else that wasn't myparents and it was an accident,
and we were truck flipped on theroad, like people under the
truck, like all of us had to goto the hospital, like it was
fucking.
I am just now having thisrealization.

Speaker 2 (01:26:25):
Oh shit, there's where it's from well, and that's
what I'm kind of mean by like,it is your, it's your body's way
of looking out for you.
We don't remember trauma.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
We relive it oh my god, the fact that I'm like it's
of course I'm going to haveanxiety.
He's 16 and he's learning todrive.

Speaker 2 (01:26:43):
It's always deeper than what it is.
Oh, my God, I am just nowremembering this yeah, so that
makes so much sense so your bodyhere.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
I'm weird about my kids being in cars with other
kids with other people too.
Like the thought of him gettingin the car with another kid,
another teenager, like gives meso much anxiety because I was
part of a situation where itwent poor and it could have gone
so much worse and it didn'tRight.
I've had ex-boyfriends die incar accidents, like so that at

(01:27:14):
16, 17 years old, so that typeof stuff like yeah.
So I told Jason, I was likeit's not good for him.
I don't know how to be stoic inthis situation.
I don't know how to be calmwhile he's learning to drive.
It needs to be you or we needto put them in classes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
But again, like, when people are anxious, they try to
suppress it, they try to numbit.
I know a lot of people who theyfeel so much anxiety and so
they drink or they smoke becausethey don't want to feel that
anxiety.
So many people, it's wild, it'stheir way of coping.
And again, this can be anopportunity to like figure out

(01:27:57):
the why.
Yeah, instead of suppressing it, instead of just wanting it to
go away, be like okay.
Well, when do I feel anxious?
Why, why, why?
Why keep asking the why?

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Yeah, Didn't?
Um?
In Dora one time when we weretalking about like how to know
if you're ready for like amushroom journey, she was, like,
continue to ask yourself whyand then allow the mushrooms to
assist you in the why.
Like, when you can figure, whenyou can answer the why, allow
them to assist you in it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:29):
Love that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
This has nothing to do with mushrooms, by the way.
I just thought that that waslike an interesting take, like I
think finding the why is somuch bigger than we give it
credit for and should really bethe question we ask ourselves in
any of these mental healthsituations.
I know that the holidays aregoing to put me in a depressive
episode or a spiral.

(01:28:51):
I don't even know if I want tocall it that anymore, because I
know what the holidays are forme.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
I think grief comes with the holidays for the both
of us.
We've learned, which is why wehave decided we don't record
during the holidays because,we're going in, we're going in,
we're taking our descent, we dobecause it is.
I think it's time.

(01:29:19):
That's the time to go inwardand connect with ourselves so we
can show up for our family.
So the podcast takes a backseat.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
When you asked earlier what I would recommend
for people to do when they havejobs and families and can't do
stuff, what I would say now andI'm rethinking this because, as
you said, that I'm like do less.
You don't have to quit your job, but do less of the other
things that take away from goingin, which is what we did.

(01:29:55):
We isolate during the holidays.
We isolate so hard that weforget that we're friends.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
We do, but you know what?
I love, though.
What I love, though, is is likethere is this mutual respect
that we both know that we'reboth isolating, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):
It's hard as fuck, but we both come out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
But I see a lot of people who struggle with
depression or anxiety and I'mlike, okay, you have this, you
have this you have this on yourplate, like take some stuff on
your plate, but there's anattachment to it because there's
, I think, an unconsciousavoidance to go in and to sit
with themselves and to just be,because when they are, you know

(01:30:44):
they're um PTA mom, they they're, they have their job.
There was just going to helpwith carpool.
They're doing this, doing that,volunteering here or or even
just I can't be alone.
I always have to be with friends.
Yeah, there's an avoidancethere, yeah, and so I think

(01:31:11):
there has to be some someself-accountability within that,
yeah, like if you're on thishamster wheel.
That's a really great firstplace to start is doing less.
Do less, say no to more things.

Speaker 1 (01:31:21):
I have had clients who open up to me about what
they're going through, but thenthey are like the volunteer mom,
the PTA mom and they're notwilling to give it up, booking
this and booking that and doingthis and doing that, and there's
nothing that they want to letgo of.
Here's something somebody toldme a long time ago and I don't
know where I heard this or how Iheard it, but imagine

(01:31:43):
everything in your life as ballsthat you're juggling.
Some are glass, some are rubber.
So your family and you, you'reglass balls.
Sometimes a career can be aglass ball.
Balls Juggle those balls Jiggleit.
And sometimes you're going tohave to let go of some of those

(01:32:03):
rubber balls so those glass onesdon't shatter.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
So like for you and I .
We closed our businesses.
Um, we lost a lot offriendships.
We not that we were ever bigdrinkers, but, like I, became
much more introverted and thepeople who stayed were the
people who stayed, yeah.

(01:32:26):
And so oftentimes we have, wethink that we have these deep
attachments to things outside ofourselves when we kind of
really don't.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
Yeah, but I can understand why people think that
they do A hundred percent Welland like.
So the mom that I was talkingabout when I'm like well, but
why do you do that?
Well, nobody else is going todo it.
People did it before you.
Right, right, let some otherschmuck be the one Like.
Like you, take care of you.
Yeah, like, just because you'rethe one they go to doesn't mean

(01:33:01):
you're the only option.
That's a lesson.
But we are a society thatrewards busy.
Yeah, yeah.
So like and they people look ather and they're like oh my God,
she does it all Wow, but then,like I know, she's not okay with
doing it all.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Well, and they people On the outward because, again,
a lot of times when we're notokay, people have no fucking
idea, right?
So people look at thatoutwardly and they're like, wow,
look at her, she's fuckingcrushing it.
I've said that about you, whereI'm like I thought you had the
perfect family, everythingaesthetically pictures.
It looked all like rainbows andbutterflies and unicorns, but

(01:33:39):
it wasn't that.
No, but we reward that, yeah.
So slowing down, saying no,doing less, just being instead
of doing, that is an act ofrebellion, so it might not feel
right.
Quote unquote right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
Yeah, it's literally what Allie was saying in her
episode, her sister being likejust do, just do.
And I so wanted to step in andbe like no, I'm glad you didn't
do, I'm glad you were just beingyou rebel, you Just don't it.
That's the episode.

(01:34:21):
Just don't it, just don't it,just don't it.
I love that so much, just don'tit, just don't it we are anti
nike.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
Just do it.
No, just don't it just don't it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:34):
I'm gonna get that on a pair of nikes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
Just don't I'm tired of doing.
Yeah, it's always do yeah right, we're anti.

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
Just do it, just don't it.
I'm tired of doing.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
It's always do to you Right.

Speaker 1 (01:34:44):
We're anti.
Just do it Just don't it.
I want to be, just be, be, be,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:48):
Oh, I love that Great way to end.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
Okay.
So I feel like we need to saynone of this is medical advice.
That's with any of our episodes, though, oh God.
But I hope that you got thisfar and maybe are rethinking
your thoughts about mentalhealth, just being open to a

(01:35:14):
possibility that it's not whatyou thought and that there is a
way out of it and there isanother side, and it's a
beautiful side and it's a reallyhard side, but's super fucking
rewarding, um, so, yeah, that'sit and the heroine's journey.
We'll link it, because this isone of those books that, like I
said, I'm rereading it andhighlighting because I didn't do
it the first time.

(01:35:35):
So dummy, so fucking good, I'mgonna just carry a highlighter
with me everywhere I go.
You should, um, yeah, be open.
Stay curious, we'll see you onthe other side.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
And happy Mental Health Awareness Month.
Mental Health Awareness.

Speaker 1 (01:35:48):
Month Happy Mental Health Awareness Month.

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Why did I say that, cut it, cut it.

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83 | Just Don't It (A New Perspective on Depression and Anxiety)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}83 | Just Don't It (A New Perspective on Depression and Anxiety)