84 | Exploring Psychedelic Healing for Veterans (with Lauren Myers of VETS) - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, okay, welcome everybody to another episode of
See you on the Other Side Today.
I am so excited we have LaurenMyers here with us.
She is the Director of Women'sPrograms at VETS, and VETS is a

(00:21):
nonprofit that stands forVeterans Exploring Treatment
Solutions.
Hello, lauren, hi, lauren, hi,thanks for having me, thanks for
coming on, and I was tellingyou earlier, I've been trying to
get vets on for like threeyears.
It's something.
This is a topic that hits closeto home for me and I really

(00:42):
want to talk about howpsychedelic treatment can help
veterans.
But I do want to get to vetslater on, but first I kind of
want to learn about you and yourjourney and kind of how you
came into this space.
So can you kind of introducethe listeners to who you are and

(01:06):
how you got started?

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Sure, hello everyone, I'm Lauren Myers.
Just a little bit about me.
I'm born and raised in LosAngeles, california, went into
the military in 1994.
Women in the military in the90s was a little bit interesting
experience, I have to say.
I was at the Air Force Academyand when I graduated from there

(01:30):
I went on to become a pilot andretired in 2019.
I did half my career flying andactive duty and then the second
half in reserves.
I met my husband while incollege.
He became a Navy SEAL.
So we had very busy lives,especially during the Iraq War,
and you know we both reallyloved what we were doing.

(01:53):
And I will say, probably about10 or so years after a lot of
his major deployments, westarted seeing things surface
for him like post-traumaticstress and traumatic brain
injury and anxiety anddepression and things like that.
And so that is what led us tothe psychedelic space he tried

(02:17):
everything from.
He probably spent a third ofone year in inpatient treatment
trying to get better talktherapy, pharmaceuticals, emdr,
recreational therapy, like youname it.
He tried it.
He was desperate to get betterand finally one day a good buddy
of his from the seals checkedin and said, hey, how are you

(02:39):
doing and thankfully he washonest and just said not great.
And that guy told him aboutpsychedelic therapy, which we
thought was crazy.
Right, we're like you know.
Hello, we're from the like,just say no you know, era.
So, you know, it's like drugs,what you know.
So, um, we, but at that pointwe had tried everything else and

(03:03):
so we just thought, let's,let's do this.
And so he went into it, um, atthe beginning of 2020.
So it's been just over fouryears and I remember just
thinking, if he can just getbetter, we're going to be okay.
That was just, that was my kindof mantra I had.
If he can get better, we'regoing to be okay.
Cause we were just struggling asa couple, as a family, as
individuals, and I was justfull-time focused on keeping him

(03:27):
safe and our family safe and,you know, just managing a lot of
things that come along withpost-traumatic stress, traumatic
brain injury, those things.
And he went and he came back andhe was so much better and it
was like the guy that I met in1995, his smile, touched his
eyes, he like it just seemedlike a weight had lifted off of

(03:48):
him and I was so grateful forabout a minute.
And then, you know, then it wassuch a weird kind of experience
because things were okay, andthen suddenly I started feeling
angry and resentful and jealousbecause he was better, but I
still felt the same.
And now my job of taking careof him and managing triggers and

(04:12):
keeping the kids quiet anddoing all these things like that
was gone, and so it just leftthis open space in me for all of
my unprocessed trauma that Ididn't even know was there to
come to the surface, trauma thatI didn't even know was there to
come to the surface, and itjust hit me like a train and I
fell apart.
It was like we switched placesovernight.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Can I say something to that?
So we just dropped an episodethis past week about our
personal experiences and similarbut different.
My husband got sober and whenhe got sober I got worse and our
psychiatrist was like becauseyou're finally safe enough to
feel your stuff.
And so that's kind of what thatreminds me of.
It's like I think, as women,we're so focused on being the

(05:02):
managers and making sureeveryone's safe and everyone's
okay.
And are you okay?
All right, cool, cool.
We don't do that enough withourselves.
So the minute something,someone else, is okay, I think
that gives us like time andspace to like our stuff starts
to come up that we didn't knowwas there.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Yeah, and because I'm notspending all that time doing the
managing right and we can talkabout this later.
But that is one of my biggestfocuses when I'm talking to
spouses, as as the veterans arecoming into our program so that
they don't do what I did and I,I reassure them if I didn't
derail his healing journey, youwon't either, Can?

Speaker 1 (05:44):
I can I ask what um treatment he did?

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Um.
So he uh went to Ibogaine um inMexico, and that one we've seen
be very, very effective for ourveterans.
It's um.
We actually just completed astudy with Stanford and they saw
significant um improvement inpost-traumatic stress anxiety
and depression, um, and sothat's typically what the

(06:09):
veterans will go to, so that'swhat he went to.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Okay, and can you explain what um Ibogaine is
Cause I think a lot of peopledon't.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
We haven't done an episode on this.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
We've never done an episode on it.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh, it sounds like you got an episode.
Yeah, so Ibogaine comesainecomes from a root out of Africa.
It's the most powerful.
It's not really a truepsychedelic, it's actually known
as an oneirogen, which is itbasically induces a waking dream
state.
So it's different from apsychedelic where you might be

(06:40):
totally encompassed inside ofthis experience, whereas with
Ibogaine you're still aware ofyour surroundings and it's like
you're almost viewing as anobserver what's happening, as
it's working through thesevisions and things like that.
It's also very, very longlasting.
So where mushrooms might lastfour to maybe eight hours on the

(07:01):
long end, this is in yoursystem, 24 to 36 hours to maybe
eight hours on the long end,this is in your system, 24 to 36
hours.
So it's a very yeah, it's very,very intense, um, physically
and, you know, visually and allthat stuff.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Typically, um, now, everyone's going to be different
, obviously, but and it's shownto help a lot with addiction too
.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Right, yeah, I think it's the only thing with opioid,
yeah, yeah, and there's a lotof great information out there,
but, yeah, it basically clearsthe receptors, um, and I I
actually personally know peoplewho have benefited from that to
break opioid addictions Um, soit's, it's a very, very
impressive medicine, but it isincredibly challenging, um, in

(07:41):
multiple ways.
So, uh, but it works, you know,and and so that's, uh, I think,
why, uh, people are seekingthat treatment now.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
So so when he came back, he was just completely
different.
And what do I do?
He?

Speaker 2 (07:58):
was before, you know, and I had seen kind of a slow
decline over you know seven oreight years, and it was
manifesting in drinking, it wasmanifesting in depression, it
was manifesting in panic attacksand it was just kind of
increasing and increasing.
And so that's why I was sofocused on him and so that.

(08:20):
But that's why this particularIbogaine just works so
incredibly well, um, to breakkind of all that apart, or just
you know, it will work like theother psychedelics where it
allows people to process traumaswithout necessarily being
re-traumatized.
Um, you know, just kind ofthings like that.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
So, um, yeah, so anyway, I can't remember exactly
where we were on that questionbut how long did it take before
you were like, okay, I need todo this?

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Um days because I was so angry and so resentful and I
was like this is not me.
You know, like I, I, weliterally switched places.
I started binge drinking.
I um I moved out of the bedroom, I?
Um started keeping a hatejournal, like it was.

(09:10):
I was in a bad place, a reallybad place, cause I was so
resentful of all the work that Ihad put in for him.
And now I was just like what ishappening here?
Like I just felt shatteredreally and um, and I knew it
wasn't me, and thankfully,because he had done this
treatment and he was veryfocused on healing and

(09:31):
integration um, he had the spaceto hold for me in that moment
and I, like I said I didn'tderail his healing, so he just
really supported me, thankfully,because I was a mess.
I was an absolute mess.
So I said, you know what you'regoing to get better.
I'm going to go get better too.
So I just started researchingdifferent, you know, psychedelic

(09:52):
retreats and things like that,and I was like I'm just going to
go do my own thing.
And he said, well, hey, let'stalk to the doctor that you know
facilitated my retreat and justsee what he recommends.
And so I talked to him on maybea Monday or a Tuesday and he
said well, I'm hosting my firstwomen's psilocybin retreat on

(10:12):
Friday, if you can get to CostaRica.
And I said I'll be there.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Holy shit Wow.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, so I went and I said that I just knew I needed
it, you know, because we wereoperating on such different
levels at that point, Like youknow, it was just like he was up
here and I was just downdrowning, you know.
And so I went and I did all thepreparation I still fit in my
two coaching sessions before Iwent and, you know, made my

(10:40):
intentions and I just thoughtthis has to work, Something has
to work, you know, and I Ididn't know what to expect
because I have zero experiencewith any kind of um, mind
altering substances, really.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
We were the dare graduates.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, just say no.
Um, so I went.
I don't know where you.
If you want me to keep going,yeah, I'm so into this yeah
Story time.
I need to clear my throat realquick, though I'm going to mute
real quick, if that's okay.
Yeah, I didn't want to likeblast your face.

(11:20):
I'm assuming you can edit somethings.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Don't worry about it.
Okay, great, so, yeah, so Iwent.
I didn't know who I was goingwith at the time.
We did not share.
Uh, I went through vets, vets.
So vets put my husband throughthe Ibogaine treatment and vets
also, um, sent me to thisretreat for psilocybin and um.
At the time they wouldn't tellus who else would be there,

(11:46):
cause they just want it.
We're very we are very carefulwith people's identities.
Not everybody wants people toknow that they're seeking this
type of treatment and stuff likethat.
So I just went by myself,didn't know who I was going to
meet, and just was like I hope Ican find them, you know, Um.
So, yeah, I flew down there andum it, two other women, and it
actually turned into.
We have become the best offriends.

(12:08):
This is four years later.
We celebrate our psilocybinanniversary every year via text
or whatever, and, yeah, they'rejust really, really special
people, and so it was for me avery challenging experience, um,
you know, and I went in.
I was already in a pretty badplace when I went Um, and so for

(12:31):
me it was physicallychallenging, like I.
You know, it's not normal forpeople to purge um with
psilocybin.
I was, it was.
Yeah, it was a thing for me,but it was.
It served a purpose.
It was towards the end.
You know, the medicine wasthere.
Theilocybin was saying the onlyway out is through, and you know
what to do, and it was like, oh, you know, so I just it was

(12:51):
hard and I don't necessarilylike to share everything, just
because I think everyone'sexperience is going to be the
same and I never want todiscourage anyone from trying
just because mine was soterrible.
But you know, I hear so oftenfrom people like, oh, was it a
bad trip?
Was it a bad trip?
And I just don't think peoplereally truly understand when
they ask something like that.
You know what a challengingexperience like mine is actually

(13:14):
doing.
It's.
It was truly helping me getthrough the traumas that I
needed to process from.
You know all different parts ofmy life actually, and what I my
answer to people when they askabout to process from.
You know all different parts ofmy life actually, and what I my
answer to people when they askabout bad trips is you know, it

(13:36):
wasn't a bad trip because I knewI was in a safe place with safe
people, and so it allowed methe safety to go into a very
physically, emotionally,mentally challenging experience
like that, knowing that I wasgoing to be safe.
So, yes, was it hard?
Absolutely.
But was it bad?
No, and that ended up beingjust so pivotal and
transformational in my life.
And when I came back to myhusband, we were speaking the

(13:57):
same language, if you will.
He was up here and I was ableto rise up to where he was and
we were supporting each otherthrough these healing modalities
.
And we were supporting eachother through these healing
modalities and you know we'revery focused on integration and
the different mind, body, spiritpractices that support
continued healing.
Um, because that's alsosomething I really like to
emphasize is this thepsychedelic portion is such a

(14:18):
small piece of this healingjourney and you know, especially
for veterans and their spouses,like we have just been through
so much Um, but also we arehumans living in this really
bonkers world and we're we'restill have a mortgage and we
still have bills and a lot of ushave kids, and there's going to
be daily stress and there'sgoing to be future traumatic

(14:40):
events, and so what the this,the psilocybin, is doing is
giving you tools to processthese things so that you don't
store these traumas again,because that's all it is.
It's stored traumas that don'tget processed, and so that's
what was so important for us onthis path was just continuing to
like.
Yesterday afternoon we justwent outside and picked a
meditation and sat together,facing each other, and did the

(15:01):
meditation together, and youknow just, it's being committed
to each other and to our ownhealing as well.
So that's been our journey.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
I love that.
I love it too, and you knowwe've we talk a lot about
integration.
Can you share, kind of like,what your opinion is on
integration and what it means toyou?

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Sure, Integration, I think, is the most important
part of any psychedelicexperience.
Integration to me, means takingthese lessons that have been
shown to you in this experienceand then figuring out how to
incorporate that, to make thechanges in your life so that you

(15:44):
can become the person that youwant to be and live the life
that you want to live.
And a lot of times it's notclear in the moment what that
lesson is.
It's something as you workthrough in the integration,
working on, you know, coachingor meditation or whatever,
walking in nature, some of thosethings can continue to process

(16:04):
and you'll start to understandlike, oh, that's what that meant
.
And for me, you know, sometimesit was like six months later I
was like I remember that fromthe journey and now I get it.
You know it makes sense.
But that's why it takes so muchtime, because I think some
people can fall into the trap ofkind of chasing.
It's not a high, obviously, butthey're chasing that like great
feeling that you often haveafter a psychedelic experience

(16:28):
and then when the medicine wearsoff, they're like, oh, I need
to do it again, rather thanthinking like I don't know if
you guys have ever seen a comicwhere there's this guy talking
about like I think I need to godo psychedelics again.
There's this like zombie likeintegrate me.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.
We share that.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
I swear, I feel like we share it like once a month
because it's so true.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, it is tiny, like you know.
Minute experience, you know,and then incorporating it into

(17:15):
the rest of your life.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
I love that so much.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Do you feel like that's why you waited another
two years before you did ajourney?
Because that integrationprocess was, like so much bigger
than you expected it to be?

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Um, I waited two years cause I swore I would
never do it again.
It was so hard.
Okay, that makes sense.
Really really tough, physicallytough journey, which isn't
common for people with mushrooms?
Yeah, Like I was in like a fullbody cramp, like I couldn't move
, I couldn't talk.
It was awful, but I think whatI was doing was processing a lot

(17:53):
of what his demons were, if youwill, um and so, yeah, so I was
releasing a lot of things and,uh, you know, the two other
women had beautiful, likeglorious frolic, literally
frolicking the waterfallsexperiences, and I was just like
laid out on my bed, I couldn'tmove, I couldn't eat dinner.

(18:14):
They were just like so pumpedand I was like you guys can have
my food.
I was sad, like I just had somuch stuff coming up and, um,
you know, they, they held thespace for me really beautifully,
but it was really, really hardand I was like I'm good, I don't
ever need to do anything likethat again ever.
But then I think, you know, asI continued, because I was so
committed, I was going to thegroup integration calls, I was

(18:34):
meditating, I was.
I really love Qigong, I you know, if you haven't incorporated
that practice, I highlyrecommend it.
It's kind of like a predecessorto, or I think it is a
predecessor to, tai Chi.
So it's very much about movingenergy through the body and
helping to move your, your, youryourself, into the
parasympathetic nervous system.
So it's a really beautifulpractice.

(18:55):
Highly recommend it.
So I had been very yeah, it's,it's phenomenal.
So I'd been very dedicated toall of that and then I just
started feeling this pull againto.
And it was different this timebecause, for me, the first time
I was in a low, hard, angry, sadplace, and the second time I

(19:18):
knew it was time for me to goagain and it was more about
determining how or what mypurpose was in the world.
How to, what is, what is mycalling here?
You know, what am I here to do?
Who am I here to serve?
Um, and I knew that was more ofthe basis for that.
That second um, psilocybinjourney, um.

(19:41):
So that that's really why ittook two years, because I didn't
want to do it, because I and Ididn't and you know they always
talk about not settingexpectations but I was like,
well, if it was really bad thefirst time, it might be really
bad the next time too, but itended up being a really
beautiful experience.

Speaker 3 (19:55):
I was going to ask.
I was like did you get therainbows and butterflies?
Because?

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I did.
It was amazing.
It was absolutely amazing.
Yeah, it was incredible.
Um, and so that was two yearsago and I guess I'm on a
two-year cycle.
I'm actually preparing to goagain this summer to my third
psilocybin journey.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
So are you going costa rica, uh mexico okay, nice
, nice, yeah, I think thatthat's the thing that people
really don't understand when wetalk about what we do, because
they think we're doing this likeevery weekend or every month
and we're like whoa, no like.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
This is like once a year once every 18 months.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
Like I, even the good ones, even our good ones, are
like they're a lot.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
There's still a lot to process.
Absolutely yeah.
There's just so much to workthrough and so much to process,
if you're doing it for the rightreasons and looking to heal and
looking to integrate andlooking to um you know, improve
your life and improve the worldaround you.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, Intention matters.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Well, it's also too.
It's not something um that I'mlike oh, I'm going to go do this
.
I'm so excited, I am anxious, Iam nervous I know that it's
something that I need and I, andI, I start to feel when I need
it, um, it's, it's almost like Ithink of it as just it's
necessary.

(21:21):
It's it's not necessarily likegoing to a party, um, and that's
when, when, when people saythat I, oh yeah, you don't know
what it means because it's notlike this fun thing I'm going to
go do no.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, I think a lot of people have an idea like, oh,
we're at a rave or whatever.
No, yeah, it is.
It's not fun.
You know it really isn't.
It's a lot of work.
It's physically exhausting,even if it is a great experience
.
Um, you're, you're givingyourself a clean slate in your
brain and that's exhausting.
Yeah, um, so yeah, but it wasjust to kind of wrap back around

(21:55):
to that second experience.
I came out of there and I thinkthat this is answering your
very first question like how didI end up in this space?
It was that second psilocybinjourney.
I came out of that knowing Iwanted to serve somehow in some
capacity in the psychedelicspace, and within a couple
months of me saying like puttingit out there, like I really
want to work in the psychedelicspace, amber Capone called me

(22:17):
from vets and said we want tocreate a position for you.
We want to serve our spousesand our female veterans, and you
were both, and so we think thiswould be the perfect position
for you and that's how I endedup here.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
That's perfect.
Look at the universe.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
And I want to get into vets in just a sec, but I
wanted to ask one more questionhow has your family dynamic
changed since both you and yourhusband have used these
medicines?
Because, obviously, Ipersonally, it's made me a
better partner, it's made me abetter mom, it's all of these
things, but what's?
What's your experience?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
I would say the exact same.
I'm a better partner and abetter mother.
It's given me this space.
I've got two teenage girls andeveryone's like, ooh, that must
be hard, but it's amazingthey're, they're incredible
people.
But I think, you know I'm I'm abig believer in like parents,
are parents, not their kidsfriends.
You know, like them, I'm aparent, but I treat them with

(23:19):
respect.
I, you know, I listened to them.
I don't I pull them closer whenthey're struggling, like if
they're having a hard time orthey're, you know, getting sassy
with me or whatever, I willpull them into a hug.
I will not push them away, andI think that is a dynamic that
absolutely has shifted within me, because I wasn't that way
before.
I have a lot more patience andjust a better perspective, I

(23:45):
think, on this role as a mom anda wife uh, you know to to
support my family better.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
I think she did it like so the opposite of us,
cause I loved what you saidearlier about speaking the same
language as your husband.
Um, because Christine and I didit first, and then our partners
didn't do it for like a year,but it was like when it finally
happened, that's exactly what itfelt like we're like okay, now

(24:14):
you see what I see.
Now you understand where.
I am and that being able to holdspace.
But another thing that I wasgoing to ask to piggyback on the
parenting thing is like well, Iwas wondering if it was normal
for you and I think I hear thiswith a lot of other parents
after they do some type ofpsychedelic journey, to go

(24:35):
through this phase of likefeeling guilty for not knowing
what you knew sooner andparenting different sooner.
Did you ever feel that?

Speaker 2 (24:52):
different sooner.
Did you ever feel that?
You know, I think my firstpsilocybin journey was actually
about releasing guilt, shame andobligation, and so I didn't
really experience that, becauseyou can't undo what you did.
You know, I should say likeevery now, and then I'll think
back to like why did I do that?
But I don't beat myself upabout it anymore and I just
acknowledge it and I know I'mdoing better now and the kids

(25:15):
are benefiting from that.
So I try not to, because that'sa really low vibrational kind
of place to be.
So I try not to sit there fortoo long.
I just like allow myself tofeel it and then let it go.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
I love that.
I love that that was your firstjourney.
I was like oh wow.
But you're like yeah, it wasreally hard, Okay, so all those
lessons, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
So, yeah, yeah, I think you know.
So, all those lessons, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, I think you know
most people are in unison thatwe, we want to help veterans,
but I feel like there's not thatdeep conversation about how we

(26:06):
can help veterans and then theirmental health, and so I just
wanted to share some statisticswith the listeners to get like a
better grasp of how big of anissue this is and how much more
we need to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
And why vets is doing God's work.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yes, that too, and we'll get into that.
But so I got this fromcharliehealthcom and then
there's another nonprofit calledSoundOff where we got this
information from.
But one in three vets from thewars in Iraq and Afghanistan
have PTSD and that's those whohave come forward.
Ptsd rates among female vetsare more than double those of

(26:40):
male vets.
About one in 10 vets returningfrom war in Iraq and Afghanistan
struggle with alcohol or druguse.
About one in 10 outpatientmilitary clinic appointments is
for depression.
Since 9-11, military suiciderates are four times higher than
deaths in war operations.
22 vets commit suicide daily inthe US.

(27:01):
47% of post 9-11 vets who showsigns of PTSD and depression do
not seek help.
37% of soldiers and Marinesfelt mental health resources
lack confidentiality and youknow, before we interviewed you,
we were talking about it and wewere just talking about how sad
um that is.
And I have people that I knowwho served in Iraq and

(27:26):
Afghanistan and it's common forthem to be on 10 different
medications and they stillstruggle and it's as somebody
who is just, you know, a lovingfriend or a family member.
It can be very hard to watch um, because I don't know and I

(27:46):
don't understand that everythingthat they experienced um and
went through.
But I just personally feel likethere are better ways to help
veterans, and and we're, we'rewe need to do a better job.
We need to do better.
Yeah, um which.

(28:07):
So now I want to get into vetsand and and and and what you do
and how you guys are able tohelp and how this kind of came
about.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Sure.
So that's was born from Amberand Marcus Capone and his search
for and their search really for, or her, I should say probably
her search to basically save hislife.
Yeah, save his life.
He was just on a path where Iremember her on one of her other
podcasts.
She went on saying you know shedidn't, if he was alive in a

(28:42):
year or two, she would have beenshocked.
On saying you know she didn't,if he was alive in a year or two
she would have been shocked.
And so she heard about thispsychedelic treatment from
someone else and said, look, canwe please try this?
And it worked so well for himthat they decided, like we need
to get more guys coming throughthis.
And so it started off verygrassroots.
Um, just, you know, a couple ofguys at a time, um, actually

(29:06):
we're coming up on the five-yearanniversary of that's being
started.
So, um, you know, eventually,uh, they started to get enough
interest from private donorsthat they could have a more
formalized program and putthrough uh, put more guys
through the program at the time,um, and I think I'm going to
need you to repeat some of yourquestions, cause I don't

(29:26):
remember.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
There are just I have so many about that.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
So what we're doing?
So essentially what that hasbecome is we have kind of three
main pillars.
One we provide um foundationalgrants for for veterans and
their spouses to go seekpsychedelic-assisted therapy.
We don't provide thepsychedelic-assisted therapy, we
just provide the grants forthem to go.
They choose the location thatthey want to go, the psychedelic

(29:53):
that they want to take.
All of that we do have somevetted providers that most will
typically go to, but there's acouple that will go to other
places.
We also.
The second pillar is research.
We partner with majoruniversities to conduct research
around psychedelics.
So, like I mentioned earlier, astudy with Stanford and
Ibogaine.
We've also got an ongoing onewith the Ohio State University.

(30:14):
I think there might be oneupcoming with a university on
the East Coast.
So constantly looking to backthe anecdotes of how well we
know this works with science,because that's the key to our
third pillar, which isadvocating for legalizing this
treatment for veterans in theUnited States.
Right now our veterans who haveserved this country have to

(30:38):
leave this country to go getmeaningful treatment, because
right now the treatment iswoefully inadequate.
As you mentioned, they're onmultiple pharmaceuticals.
It's just a bandaid and itdoesn't get to the root of the
problem, which is why they'restill suffering.
So now we have found somethingthat works, but I think in order
to get it to get past here inthe U?
S we need to have that scienceto back it up so those really go

(31:01):
in hand in hand.
So that's our focus from ourthree pillars and then from
there we've just built out theprogram to support the veterans
and their families.
So my role as director ofwomen's programs is to primarily
work with the spouses and thefemale veterans that come
through from our specialoperations veterans.
Initially we were just reallyfocused on the veterans and

(31:25):
there wasn't a ton of support.
So, like when my husband wentthrough, there was nobody for me
to talk to to prepare me.
Cause I think if I had known,hey, this is normal to feel
angry or resentful, I would haveknown like, maybe not to turn
to alcohol, maybe not to be soangry, um, like that it was
normal and that I should work onmy own healing.
I didn't know that I needed towork on my own healing and so

(31:48):
that is my biggest focus.
So I put together a 75-pageworkbook for spouses and
supporters coming in to focus ontheir own healing and walk them
through before he goes throughhis retreat, when he's at his
retreat, and what to do afterthe retreat.
We've got a preparation callthat both the grant recipients
and their supporters are welcometo come to so that they can

(32:09):
understand what's going tohappen.
We don't like to setexpectations, but just so that
they understand the process andhow things can work and they can
hear from us I do this with mymale counterpart and they can
hear from both of us about ourexperiences weekly spouse
support calls, weekly couplescalls, um weekly women's

(32:30):
integration calls.
And then I've I set up a lot ofdifferent workshops, um,
throughout every single month.
We've got ongoing ones likeheart centered communication,
trauma release exercises.
We've got weekly meditation,weekly breath work, weekly yoga.
All of that is just thewraparound.
Services are just the the.
You know the real crux to thiswhole, this whole program, in
helping people to keep movingforward and not just rely on

(32:52):
that singular psychedelicexperience.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
So you give them kind of like prep support, help
during, and then integrationhelp after.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
That's incredible.
Yes, and everyone automaticallygets five coaching sessions,
one-on-one coaching sessions aswell, so they'll typically do
two beforehand and threeafterwards.
Those are the individualsessions and then the weekly
group sessions as well.
What?

Speaker 3 (33:15):
I love, like I love all of that, but one of the
things that I love even more isthat you provide spousal support
.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah, and that's really been, I think, key to
longer term healing for theveterans, because the veterans
really can't truly heal unlessthe family heals together, and
so the spousal support is, Ithink, making a huge impact in
that.
So they're getting connected tome right from the start.
I'm having conversations withthem right from the start,

(33:44):
they're getting the workbook sothat they're you know, they can
see all of these things thatthey're feeling and thinking and
wondering about.
It's totally normal andeverybody has the same questions
, and I basically built it.
I sat down with 10 spouses andsaid let's go back.
You know, if you, when youfirst came to this program, what
would you have wanted to know?
And we, I built it out fromthere, and so it just came

(34:05):
straight from the people that Isupport, um, to understand how
to like, really support themwith this workbook.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Like this is normal.
What you're going through isnormal and you're not alone.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
And just hearing that , yeah, just hearing that is
huge, and that's also why weinvite um.
Starting about a month prior tothe retreat, we start inviting
the spouses to come to the calls, just so that they can get
support from women who are onthe other side of it already
Hearing like, okay, oh my gosh,you had that too.
You feel that way too, becausea lot of times about leading up

(34:37):
to the retreat and a month prior, a lot of times issues will get
worse with the veterans oranyone who's going to prepare to
go to psychedelics.
I don't know if you've evernoticed this for yourself, but
sometimes your ego startsfighting back a little bit
before you go to thispsychedelic experience, and so
things can be really amplifiedand so it can be really
challenging for the spouses inthat moment.

(34:58):
So it's just great for them tohave that support leading up to
the retreat, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
So I do know someone who was a Navy SEAL, who went
through vets, and that'sactually kind of how we found
out about you guys in the firstplace, and this was years ago.
And, from what I understandabout their story, him and his
wife, like as soon as she madethe call, as soon as they made
the call, he was on a plane liketwo days later to Mexico, and

(35:26):
that's something that I reallyreally love about.
I mean, it sounds like it'skind of the same with you, like
we're doing a retreat Friday,let's go Like it's like there's
no waiting, like there is alittle bit now, just because
people have heard about us.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
A big wait list, okay .

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Back then, back then, when, now, if someone is in
crisis, we will work with themto get them um help as soon as
we can Um.
But typically, you know, we, wereview applications, we are
looking at you know who's themost, who has the biggest need,
um, you know.
And then so it can take alittle while.
It doesn't tend to, but it cantake a little bit.
It's not going to be like twodays later, typically, okay,
okay.
Yeah, that was probably four orfive years ago, yeah, when most

(36:13):
people hadn't heard of that.
But now there's, we have moredemand than we can support now,
oh wow.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Unfortunately.
So do you guys have plans togrow then?
Because of that, Becausethere's such a obviously.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
We would love to, yeah, yeah, but there's also,
you know, the financialconsiderations, you know.
So we need people to donate tosupport the cause.
That's going to be always thebiggest factor that is going to
help us to serve as many peopleas possible.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
And also like the legalities in the US.
Like it would be so much easier, I think.
I would think if it was likeeasier to access and right next
door and instead of trying tomake connections all throughout
outside of the US.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
And we're taking these guys who are really
struggling with anxiety anddepression and all these other
you know symptoms, and makingthem get on airplanes, which is
often very uncomfortable, andmaking them travel to foreign
countries.
And you know, it's just, it's ahuge ask for these guys that
should be able to get treatedhere in the country that they
serve.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
I didn't even think about that.
Yeah, that's wild to me.
So earlier, when she was um,that's wild to me.
So earlier, when she was sayingall of these statistics, one of
the things that I rememberreading and coming across was
that there are we lose moreveterans to suicide than in
combat, and I don't know whymore people don't know that.

(37:39):
But the other thing that, like,really really bothers me is
that not all of them comeforward about their struggles.
They don't feel safe to comeforward, and so what we're
hearing- about the people, orthey feel like it will impact
their career.
Yes, like it'll impact theircareer.
Soundoff is like an anonymoustreatment place, like where they

(38:01):
keep all of your informationanonymous and it's it's.
It's just really sad, kind ofgoing back to what Christine was
saying at the beginning, likehow much we want to support our
veterans, but how much werealize now we're not doing what
we could be doing.
We're not doing as much as wethought we were.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, yeah it's.
I think that is a real fearwhen you are still in the
service, of coming forwardbecause you can be removed from
your job and you know thatpeople don't want that to happen
.
So I think that's going to be aharder thing to shift to
improve people coming forwardfor mental health support while

(38:41):
active duty.
I have seen huge improvementwhen people are finally out of
the military, because even a fewyears ago nobody was really
talking about how much they werestruggling.
Because the way I look at it is, these guys loved what they did
, they loved what they did, butnow they're suffering because of
it and there's this cognitivedissonance.

(39:01):
I shouldn't be suffering, Iloved what I did, but they are,
and so nobody wants to talkabout that.
But I think as more and moreguys are coming through I
shouldn't just say guys as moreand more people are coming
through our program and sharingit with their friends and the
differences that they're seeingand feeling, more people are

(39:23):
talking about their strugglesand I mean, even for me I didn't
ever want anyone to know that Iwent and did drugs, you know,
to get better Like, yeah, that's, there's this.
There's still a stigma and ashame associated the story that
I shared with you at thebeginning of this podcast.
I never would have said fouryears ago, but now I realize
unless I start talking about itand sharing my struggles, other

(39:45):
people won't know like this isnormal and I can get help for
that.
And I think also when peoplestart to understand that this is
not for the parties.
This is.
This is a lot of work andcommitment and dedication to a
very long process and you know,I think the military is the
perfect example of that.
They're like we are verydedicated and diligent people,

(40:07):
so we're going to do this theright way and for the right
reasons, and so people start tounderstand that more and hear
more stories like mine or myhusband's, or Marcus and Amber's
and you know all the peoplethat are coming through our
program.
That can make a difference, tostart shifting the tide and the
perception around seekingpsychedelic assisted therapy.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
And I think that that's the biggest thing is like
this is psychedelic assistedtherapy, not just going out and
doing mushrooms or ketamine orany other substance, like with
just a friend at a concert.
A friend of mine.
Her brother is a veteran and Imentioned one at one point,

(40:48):
something about ketamine, andshe was like, oh yeah, no, he
had a really bad experienceduring a surgery one time and
was like hallucinating and hewould never.
And I'm like, oh, that reallysucks, that like there's always
a negative story or a bad trip.
That like really makes peoplelike terrified.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
to be open to like the therapy part of it, the
right therapeutic side, of it,right, yeah, and that's why
we're we so focused on set andsetting.
You know, having the intentionsand the retreats that our
people go to are absolutelyincredible, like they're the
best retreats I've been on,psychedelics or otherwise.

(41:29):
They're just.
They take such good care of ourpeople and the food is
incredible.
And, you know, there's just somuch more to it with with yoga
and meditation and massages andgroup counseling sessions and
all that stuff, and and so itjust makes such a big difference
, um to people, um, as they'regoing through the process.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Do you have any um advice on how to talk to loved
ones who are veterans, who havePTSD and who are struggling?
Um, I sometimes think that whenyou present an option or a

(42:07):
lifeline, it's um people can beoffended by it or um very closed
off to it because they're likedrugs, like I'm not going to
like why would I do drugs to getbetter?
Um, mm-hmm.
Do you have any feedback onlike how to bridge that gap, to
like inform and educate peoplewho are maybe not open to

(42:31):
talking or they think of this asbad?

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah.
So I think there's so manyresources out there now that are
really starting to legitimizeand mainstream at least the
thought of it.
So, like the how to change yourmind series on Netflix is such
a great starting point forpeople.
You know, I just think the bookis phenomenal and the series
actually I'm sure you've seen itall expands on the book.
It's not just like a repeat ofthe book, which I thought was

(42:58):
amazing.
I think that's a great startingpoint.
Or like a Netflix.
Another Netflix show called themind explained about
psychedelics.
There's an episode just thatpeople understand.
The purpose is not to.
I think when people view thisas drugs, it's they're seeing it
as someone using it to numb,just like they've used alcohol
or other substances to numb.

(43:19):
But the whole point ofpsychedelics is to help you feel
and you know this is what wetell everyone on our preparation
call that it's not aboutfeeling better, it's about
getting better at feeling and sohelping people to understand
that piece.
So you know, if you want toshare those, just say like hey,
you know I've been.

(43:40):
I mean, you guys have a podcastall about this, so you can be
like I look at all theseresources, thought you might be
interested, just sharingsomething like that or sharing
other podcasts.
There's so many podcasts outthere where even our grant
recipients have have been on, orMarcus and Amber have been on.
There's so many things outthere that you can share with
people and just say, hey, Ithought you might be interested,
or you know, and if you don't,if you don't even want to be

(44:04):
that secretive and just be likeyou know, I love you, I'm
concerned about you, I just wantto help.
Here's maybe something to checkout, and all you can do is
offer it to them, cause thething is, you cannot force
somebody to heal.
You cannot force someone to healand so yeah, I know, I know,
trust me.
But you can lay it before them,you know, and then it's up to
them to pick up the breadcrumbsand follow the trail to get

(44:25):
there.
But if you don't tell themabout it then they don't know,
you know.
So you have to open the door,at least for them to be able to
walk.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's always a battle of like am I sharing or am I
being annoying?

Speaker 2 (44:39):
I guess yeah, but you know, if being annoying is
going to save someone's life, beannoying.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
So true, I'd rather be annoying.
I would rather be annoying.
I really like what you saidearlier.
It's about like, not like.
What did she say about learninghow to feel?

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Oh no, not feeling better, but getting better at
feeling.
That I can't.
That's not my quote, I don'tknow who first said it, but it's
amazing, we're clipping itanyway.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Cause that was never heard that before.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
And that is like the truest thing I've ever heard,
because I think so many peopleare terrified to do these
modality, to try thesemodalities, because they're like
, well, I don't want to relivethat, or I don't want to feel
that and I'm like but you'refeeling it every day, anyway,
you just don't realize it, likeit's showing up every day,
anyway, you're just running fromit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
So that's, the body keeps the score of that book.
The body keeps the score.
That's another great resourceto share with people.
Just share it with a triggerwarning that one's a heavy, a
little bit of a heavy it is, butI think it helps people
understand the like you know.
So here's the way I look at it,especially for veterans and
having been one myself, when Iwas flying and I had something

(45:46):
stressful or scary or somethingreally awful happen, I didn't
have time to process it becauseI'm flying a plane at hundreds
of miles an hour, so I had tobox it up, put it away.
I'll deal with it later.
You know, same thing for ourspecial operations warriors.
They're in the middle ofgunfights.
They see someone get shot.
You know they can't be like laydown and cry.
They got to keep fighting toget out of there.

(46:07):
They have they box it up, putit away, process it later.
The problem is nobody processesit and so now, decades later
from when these things firsthappened, they don't understand.
Why am I angry all the timeLike nothing really happened?
I know I shouldn't be having apanic attack, but I am like,
logically, it's because it'sliterally stored in their
tissues and it has to come outat some point, and so now the

(46:29):
body's letting it out, and thatthat's why they're not not not
understanding it.
Um, so it's just so important.
That's an, I just think,another great resource to share
with people.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
For that reason, you literally just summed the body
keeps the score in like 30seconds, I love that the quick
version.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
You're right though.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
The non-heavy version , yes, I don't think people
realize, and we say this all thetime, like it's still there,
like you didn't just get rid ofit.
It's, it's showing up in otherways, so Right.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Right.
And is it Gabo Mate who says,like trauma is not what happened
to you, it's what happened inyour body when the trauma
happened?
Yeah, you know.
So so much of what happens tois like, did you have someone
there to support you in thatmoment to process it, or could
you even process it?
So, yeah, that's.
It's just.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
it's so much about the body, and that's why
psychedelics are so effective,because it helps to release it
from the body, so then you canstart processing well, and I I
think too about like justsociety's conditioning, family
conditioning, you know, growingup with child trauma and then
for somebody to join themilitary and then have those
traumatic experiences like inwar and all of that and I'm like

(47:39):
it just is like layered on andso it's.
It's the psychedelics, it's likethat fresh pile of snow, that
kind of it's that fresh snowfall.
So, instead of always goingthis way, this way and this way,
like you always have done, it'slike no, you can go this way
now and you can go this way, andyou can go this way, yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Yeah, or I was having a conversation with someone a
couple of weeks ago where I saidyou know these other substances
like they might take you out ofthe head momentarily, but the
psychedelics will take you outof your head and put you into
your heart.
So, and that's to me like amuch better alternative than the

(48:22):
substances to numb personally.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
So yeah, well it's.
It's about connecting to thebody.
It's all about connecting tothe body because we spend so
much time disconnected and up inour thoughts, not realizing
like, oh, that heartburn I haveis actually anger or whatever.
You know, it's just, there's somuch in there to process.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah, so what other?
I know that vets doesn'tprovide the modalities and I'm
sure that you all have so manyconnections around the world for
different medicines.
Um, what modalities do you guyswork with?

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Like we said, Ibogaine for sure, ibogaine and
psilocybin for sure.
We do have some people whochoose to go to ayahuasca
occasionally, occasionallyketamine, not as often.
Um um Iboga.
Some people have gone to Ibogainstead of Ibogaine.
Iboga is the actual root bark,whereas Ibogaine is the pure um

(49:21):
particle, particle.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
So I thought they were the same thing.
I didn't know that.
Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, yeah, so there's, there's a difference
there.
So those are kind of the mainones um that people are
utilizing.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Has there been any with MDMA um that?

Speaker 2 (49:38):
people are utilizing.
Has there been?

Speaker 3 (49:41):
any with MDMA?
Um, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Those are harder to find you don't really like hear
about a lot of MDMA retreats.
Yeah, no, I don't think so.
I mean, you know, obviouslyJohns Hopkins had that huge,
huge study that they've got.
But, um, I know that they arestarting to look at MDMA for
couples, um, which is actuallypretty unique.
If they decide to move forwardwith it, it would be the first
time that a spouse would gettreated as well, um, not just

(50:06):
the veterans, oh, like veterancouples Okay.
Yeah, veteran couples Okay, um,so I don't think that that I
don't know where that is, um ina in the process or anything but
anything.
But I know that's somethingI've heard mentioned before.
But yeah, I would say theIbogaine psilocybin are the two
main ones.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
A 5-MeO DMT also is another one as well, like active
in, and I don't know if this isa dumb question, but anyone who
is kind of actively servingright now, they will not get
access to it because no, no,they can't and we won't.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
we won't put anyone through that's active duty.
They have to wait till they'reout of the military to do it.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Hopefully, hopefully, one day.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yeah, well, that was recently passed in the NDAA bill
um that active duty memberscould be included in psychedelic
research.
So it did it did pass.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Now it's down the road,probably when anything would
actually happen, but at leastlike the fact that a bill passed
with psychedelics and activeduty members in the same
paragraph is pretty amazing tome.
So, um, yeah, it's definitelybeing talked about and
considered.
Um, and it did pass um justearlier this year.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
That's wonderful and I'm glad I asked that question.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
I know, yeah, I wasn't sure, yeah, um.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
So what else, like what is the hope for vets in the
future?
Because obviously over the lastfive years you guys have grown
tremendously.
What's the goal for the nextfive years?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
I mean, I know the ultimate goal is to basically be
out of business where itbecomes legalized.
And they, you know, they don'tneed us to do this.
You know, because, as Imentioned earlier, the demand
exceeds our capabilities.
And you know, I think servingthe special operations veteran
population, it's a very smallpopulation and even just within

(52:06):
that population we still can'thelp everybody that wants help.
But I think they are key togetting legislation passed down
the road to then open it up toall veterans.
So, yeah, that would be ideallythe goal, you know, and I think
just, but along the way, youknow, getting more studies done
to have more science to back upthese stories of great success

(52:28):
that we have.
And you know, I'm not sure whatelse.
It's just, I think, just tohelp as many people as we can,
you know, but it's, there'salways going to be like that.
Where's the tipping point ofwhere we want to be able to do
it well and we want to be ableto support everybody, um, in the
best way that we can.
So it's just finding that thatgroove.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
What are ways that um us regular folks, civilians,
civilians can help?

Speaker 2 (52:53):
um, you know, sharing our social media encouraging
people to donate to us.
Um, you know, if anyone isinterested in donating, we're
all all private donation funded,so just the more donations that
we can get, the more peoplethat we can serve, cause it's it
costs typically about $7,500 toput um a veteran through the

(53:15):
program with coaching andeverything.
So if we can start getting morefunds raised to help, then
that's that's the biggest thingis just sharing, raising
awareness, sharing stories.
I actually did a couple ofInstagram live interviews with
one of our grant recipients.
So just sharing those people'sstories.
I think that's what reallyhelps the most is to get that

(53:36):
information out there and peopleto see like these are real
people who are getting realbenefit from real medicine, if
you will.
It's just such a differencefrom the pharmaceutical world
and the things that just arejust a band-aid.
It's like helping people get tothe root of their issues and

(53:57):
processing and then finallymoving from surviving to
thriving.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Well, and that's the thing, Like this is one of those
like last resort situations fora lot of people and we're
hoping that like it's not thatanymore, like you don't have to
jump through books and try allthese medicines and modalities
to finally find solace.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Yeah, well, I think that's where you know, in active
duty.
Obviously they can't utilizethese, these psychedelics yet,
but if they started preemptivelyteaching breath work or
meditation or, you know, givingthem tools that would help
process these traumaticsituations in the moment or
trauma release exercisesphenomenal, and all it is is

(54:39):
shaking your legs it can make ahuge impact on what they
experience down the road tolessen the severity or prevent
it altogether.
Is that happening?

Speaker 3 (54:50):
or no.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
No, that's what I think should happen.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
I was like why aren't they doing that?
Wait a minute, Right, right.
Especially if, like, we knowthat once you're out of once
you're not in duty anymore.
These are things that arecontinuing to show up in
veterans, like, why are we notsteamrolling and getting into it

(55:13):
before Interesting?
Yeah, very interesting.
We'll get there someday,hopefully Interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Very interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
We'll get there someday.
Okay, I hope so too.
I really do.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
It's baby steps.
Well, we're going to get theword out for sure.
Um, we've been like savingstats just to post this week, or
with this episode.
Um, specifically, and you know,get out there and don't just
eat a hot dog to celebrateVeterans Day and you know, like,
actually do something.

(55:42):
So hopefully a lot of peoplewill hear this and have a
different mindset.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, I think everyonecan support a different aspect
of it.
If someone's more interested inresearch, you know, donate for
that.
If you're interested inadvocating for legalization,
donate for that.
If you want to just help putpeople through the program,
donate for that.
You know, pick your avenue andjust support it, love that.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
I love that so much.
Thank you for coming on.
Thank you for sharing yourstory.
We love all that you're doingand the voice you're being in
this space and grateful we gotto talk to you today and, yeah,
you're wonderful.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
Thank you for your service, but you're still
serving Like you're stillserving.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
So thank you for all of it.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Thank you, no, it's my honor, all right, and to all
of our listeners, we will linkvets in the link notes below and
we'll see you guys on the otherside.

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84 | Exploring Psychedelic Healing for Veterans (with Lauren Myers of VETS)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}84 | Exploring Psychedelic Healing for Veterans (with Lauren Myers of VETS)