86 | It's JUST Emotions (A Guide to Emotional Sobriety) - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
okay, we gotta start, I know.
Oh my god, everybody.
Welcome back to an episode,another episode, an episode of
see you on the other side.
You usually do this.
Why am I doing this?
The conversation that we justhad so so uncomfortable it was

(00:23):
her.
I'm like fidgeting over here inthe corner, like squirming in
my seat it was.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Uh, I feel like it takes us a little bit to get
warmed up, like we'll startrecording and then we'll have
like a random ass sideconversation and I like that you
said foreplay, because it wasliterally about that foreplay it
was about foreplay, foreplay.
We were talking about foreplay,foreplay.
We were talking about foreplay.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, it's.
Yeah, leah's so uncomfortable,such an uncomfortable topic for
me.
Yeah, it's fine, I can talkabout it, I can do uncomfortable
things, I can do hard thingsand I can have hard
conversations.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Oh, my cheeks hurt.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
Same, so that's actually what I wanted to talk
about today is uncomfortablethings.
In a nutshell is feelings andemotions.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
What a feel like this can piggyback off of our last
episode that we did together,the mental health episode.
We could have gone into this,but it would have taken like
another hour and a half.
Um, but I remember sending youa Marco one day about emotions,

(01:44):
and if you don't know what Marcois, let me tell you.
We just got onto it and it'slike amazing.
It is the best we were.
We were like they should inventan app where we can just leave
each other video notes all thetime and then we were like oh
they do, oh they have one.
Of course they do, idiots, duh.
We've been sending videomessages back and forth for like
a year and didn't know thatthere was an easier way.

(02:06):
So anyway, I'll leave her this.
Marco and I'm like what is itabout emotions that people try
so hard to avoid having them orfeeling them or seeing them,
even like it's just emotions,and I say this all the time and

(02:27):
I and I know that it's nuancedand I know that, like some
people would be like well, but Iget that, but like it's a
feeling, it's an emotion, andsometimes they can provoke
physical feelings, so I canunderstand how and why they feel
so overwhelming.
And I'm not saying I don't getoverwhelmed by emotions myself,

(02:51):
we do.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
We get overwhelmed sometimes by our own emotions.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Emotions are hard.
Yeah, that is like probably oneof the hardest parts about the
human experience.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
But we often equate hard and uncomfortable with bad,
and they are not synonymous.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
So fucking true, so true.
So I started saying somethingto my husband a couple of years
ago and maybe I've mentionedthis in a podcast, but every now
and then, when we're having anuncomfortable conversation,
literally I told you aboutfinances, where it's just a
monthly check in about ourfinances, and I'm just in tears

(03:33):
and he's like what's wrong?
And I'm like it's just emotions, and I say that a lot and I
kind of want it on a T-shirtlike it's just emotions, because
it's not like I don't need youto stop talking, like you can
keep going, you can keep talkingto me, but like I just need you
to know that like tears aregoing to be coming out of me
because I am expressing andfeeling emotions while we're

(03:59):
having this conversation.
I'm not stuffing them oravoiding them, so it's just
energy moving through my bodythe way that it's meant to.
Yeah, and have you ever talkedto somebody who's like?
I can't remember the last timeI cried.
Oh my God, so many people, ohmy God, it's like multiple times

(04:19):
a day for me.
Yeah, it's all the time.
Like a fucking commercial, Iwill cry.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, and here's the thing too, like I see both ends
of it, because I see why thosepeople are that way, because
oftentimes we grew up in anenvironment where it wasn't safe
to feel emotions and feelcertain things.
Um, just the society we live init's, it's not taught, it's
uncomfortable, it is hard.

(04:48):
Um, I was telling you earlierlike, and then I also understand
people like you and I where weare very big feelers and have
very big emotions, and beingable to feel those emotions
around other people has oftenfelt unsafe for us because that

(05:10):
was not accepted.
So I see why people don't do itand I see why people who you
know do have those big feelingswant to hide it as well, because
of like it doesn't feel safe.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
a lot of the time it doesn't feel safe a lot of the
time, this goes back to evenbeing a child and being told to
suck it up.
Be a man, stop crying, that'snothing to cry about.
Or you know, I was a kid whogot spanked, so it was like if
you don't stop crying, I'll giveyou something to cry about you

(05:41):
know what I mean.
Like.
So I understand, like this runsdeep, yeah, in a lot of people
that conditioning, that cryingis weakness yeah and you can't
show weakness right and I.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
I got labeled.
I never got, I didn't getspanked, but I got labeled as um
, like dramatic and overlysensitive and like a cry baby I
feel like that should be one ofthose memes.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's like if you were that kid who was overly
sensitive, like how's therapynow?

Speaker 2 (06:17):
or something how's your healing journey now?

Speaker 1 (06:19):
I think that is a meme if you're the oldest
daughter or the youngestdaughter or a daughter or a son,
if you're a human being andgrew up as a child, right?
How are you doing now?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
yeah, yeah so yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
So I wanted to talk about emotions and what about
them is so hard because thereare some emotions that are
harder to feel than others,obviously, and I think it is
because we label them as goodand bad.
It's like happy is a greatemotion, nobody hides that.
Like, everybody loves happy,right, you can be happy in front
of people and it's contagious,and laughing is contagious and

(06:57):
joy is such a good feeling, butthen you hear anger and it's bad
.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
But I think anger, especially with men, is more
accepted because it is powerful.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
It's powerful.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Like there's power with it.
Yeah, where like crying andsadness and grief?

Speaker 1 (07:20):
So this drives me crazy, because women often get
labeled as like super fuckingemotional, but then the men are
the ones like punching holes inwalls and like throwing remote
controls across the room forlike literally losing a video
game, right, and we're labeledas emotional and it's like no
Joe you're just as emotional.

(07:43):
Yours is just coming out in thatone primary emotion.
Like there's primary emotions,there's secondary emotions and
this is something that, like myhusband, had to learn.
I think a lot of people arelearning in the last several
years.
A lot of people probablyalready knew this stuff.
But, like the feelings wheel,love it.

(08:05):
I love it too, because whatyou're feeling is an anger, it's
, it's something else.
And so you go to the feelingswheel and we've done a post
about it before but you go tothe feelings wheel and it's like
all these feelings underneathanger, which is like resentment,
um, disappointment,disappointment, shame, guilt,
like there's all these feelingsunder it.

(08:26):
So I remember the first time Iever asked my husband, when he
was like mad about something,like what's underneath that?
And he's like what the fuck isthat supposed to mean?
And then we go to ourpsychiatrist and he's like and
what do you think is under thatanger?
And jason's like what does thatmean?

Speaker 2 (08:42):
I'm angry well and a lot of people don't really
realize that like there'ssomething underneath that anger.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Well it's you kind of have to dig and ask the bigger
questions, like but why are youangry?
Right, you got to ask the whyYou're angry because you're
feeling resentful, or you'reangry because you're feeling
shame and you don't like feelingthat shame.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
And it triggered that shame, triggered a wound from
when you were a little shame andyou don't like feeling that
shame.
And it triggered that shame,triggered a wound from when you
were a little kid and you feltshame in this situation and so
this present.
And someone told you not tofeel that.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
And it's so Big.
There's so many things aboutemotions and I, not to like take
it back to your first journey,but I remember your first
journey, how like you had to gothrough these emotional waves

(09:35):
and each emotional wave was adifferent emotion.
Can you elaborate on that ifpeople aren't?

Speaker 2 (09:42):
don't know what I'm talking about.
Yeah, so, um, my first journeythere weren't like visuals, it
was just emotions, and so it waslike I would just feel the
angriest I've ever felt.
And then I would go back to myintention and like, which was to

(10:03):
let it go, whatever, rememberto breathe, all that but as it
kept going, cause then it wouldbe sadness and then it would be
disappointment, and then itwould be like frustration and
abandonment and all of thosethings, but as I kept feeling
them, like I was able to holdspace for those emotions, like

(10:27):
they got less uncomfortable.
Yeah, and then so by the end ofit, I'm like, oh my God, like I
just like it's OK for me tofeel, like I meant to feel, I'm
supposed to feel, like so I'vebeen suppressing the fact that
I've been this feeler my entirelife.

(10:49):
And then I did this one journeyand it was like no, feel it,
feel it and then let it go.
No, feel it and then let it go.
No, feel it, truly feel it, andthen let it go.
Like that was the entire lesson.
And I know that sounds simple,but it does, but it's.
It's incredibly profound,because how often do we truly

(11:11):
embody that in our lives?

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Sit with it and feel it.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, and then I think you know too, it's like I
need those.
I, you know, I try to do ajourney once a year because with
just conditioning and life andall of those things, like things
get, get, get piled on and thenit's like it's this reset of
like oh no, like you're here tobe, you're here to feel,

(11:36):
remember who you are, like allof that.
So it's like I do need thosereminders because life happens
and conditioning still happensand so, like I have to
continuously do the work to likenot shame myself, to feel those
things.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
I feel like it sounds simple, because you see, all
these things, it's like you haveto heal, feel to heal, and the
only way through it is through,or the only way I posted that
stuff before I did mushrooms andintellectually I understood
that right we all understandwhat that means but there's a

(12:16):
difference between, likeintellectualizing it and
embodying it, yes and trulyfeeling it in your body, and
that's something that I'm stillworking on.
We always are Right and wealways will be Right.
I think the really cool thingis being on a journey with

(12:37):
someone, having friends who arein the same space, and you get
to witness each other's growthin the same space and like, you
get to witness each other'sgrowth and you get like you can
talk about it, but then themoment that they that other
person embodies it, you're likeyou get it now, yeah, and then
you see the other person getsomething that you figured out.

(12:58):
You know what I mean.
Like that's, that's a reallycool thing to witness, but it's
it's that understanding thatlike the only way through it.
Like a lot of people they'relike, but I did feel it like.
Did you feel it, though?
Like did you let it run itscourse, or did you like you felt
angry and then you went and didsomething else to not feel

(13:20):
angry anymore?
Or did you reach for a drink soyou could like put it away for
a minute, or did you get wrappedup in like your work, so you
could like, okay, well, I feltangry, and so now I'm going to
go do this.
I don't feel angry anymore, like, call me delusional or crazy,
but like I will sit and I willfeel it until it's done.

(13:41):
Yeah, I didn't used to do that.
Yeah, and if it takes me days,it takes me days.
Yeah, I also know that.
You know you do have to like,you still have to do things, you
still have to live life, youstill have to be a parent and be
a human and have a job, and so,like I will do all of those
things, but I don't run fromthem anymore, or numb, or avoid,

(14:07):
and um, I guess that was goingto bring me to my like.
Next thing is have you everheard the word emotional
sobriety?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yes From you.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
For me.
Okay, I went down a littlerabbit hole again um emotional
sobriety.
I took notes, but I don't needthem because it was a term
coined by bill wilson who, as weknow, started aa.
Um, I feel like people thinkI'm obsessed with him and I'm
not I love him leah.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Do you think he's so hot?
Leah Shut up.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Oh my God, I just know a lot about him and the
history of what he has done andwhat he's created.
I'm a fan.
I know he did some reallyfucked up shit and so that I'm
not a fan of, but the conceptand the things that he brought
to the table like I love what hewas doing brought to the table

(15:06):
like I love what he was doing.
So, emotional sobriety he wroteabout it in one of his books is
the ability to sit with yourfeelings and your emotions
without running from them orusing a substance to escape or
numb.
Ooh, that's not like the exactdefinition of it, but it's that.

(15:26):
So he came up with this termbecause in AA and in sobriety,
the first goal is to remove thealcohol or the substance or the
drugs or whatever it is thatyou're trying to get sober from,
and with that you have to gothrough these 12 steps.
The second part of becomingsober is becoming emotionally

(15:48):
sober, and they don't talk aboutthat in AA.
Like when I brought this up tomy husband, I was like, do you
know what emotional sobriety is?
And he was like, no, I'm likeit's interesting to me that it's
not talked about in AA.
Yeah, they don't teach thispart of it.
But the more I read into it andthe more I looked into it, I

(16:22):
was like oh, this is just a wordfor what we now know and call
self-regulation.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
You know what that is ?
Yes, okay, all right.
Well, so the other thing I wasgoing to say is I feel like
addicts of a substance get thebrunt of, maybe judgment in that
way.
Yeah, where for me, like likeyou talked about when you were

(16:50):
in the thick of it with Jason,and like at your low low, like
you would shop or like peoplewill feel angry or feel sad or
feel whatever that'suncomfortable for them and
they'll eat or their shop orthey will get to work or like.
So it's not just people who use,just addicts, yes, but I feel

(17:10):
like they're the ones who getkind of the brunt of that type
of judgment when it's like no,we all do it.
Right, right, like we all haveescapes.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Yes, your phone.
We all have coping skills,social media.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
You feel a certain way, so you just go and
disassociate and look at yourphone for hours.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
There are healthy coping and unhealthy coping
skills.
It's all very, very nuanced.
I'm so afraid to speak on thisbecause I don't want anybody
coming after me being like youdon't understand what it's
nuanced.
I'm like so afraid to speak onthis because I'm like I don't
want anybody coming after mebeing like you don't understand
what it's like and I don't knowwhy.
I'm feeling like that right nowbecause we talk about a lot of

(17:51):
shit where I never give a fuckyeah.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Um come, come at you in what way.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Okay.
So in I feel like the abilityto sit with your emotions sober
and I don't mean sober fromalcohol or drugs, I literally

(18:20):
mean like that, like being ableto sit with them without running
from something is verydifficult to do, difficult to do
, and so for me, I thinksometimes people think that if
they are on SSRIs or some typeof antidepressant or a mood
stabilizer, that they are stillsober, and I'm like, but
actually you're still numbing toa degree, you're still.
That's why I feel this way,because there are a lot of

(18:42):
people in AA or in groups likethat.
And again, this isn't just thisconversation isn't about
sobriety from alcohol or drugs.
This is emotional sobriety.
So it's it's different.
But I'm going to AA becausethat's like my, what I know in
my life and what I can relate to.

(19:02):
There are a lot of people in AAwho are still on
antidepressants because theydon't know how to sit with their
feelings without the alcohol.
The alcohol is something thatthey use to run from it and then
they turn to something thatnumbs it.
And I'm saying that becausewhen my husband was first sober

(19:23):
in that first year which, toanybody who's ever gone through
this, that first year is thehardest for anybody in a
sobriety journey and it'sincredibly difficult on the
spouse or the partner as well,and someone recommended that he

(19:43):
go on medication because he washaving a really hard time
feeling his feelings.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
And having a really hard time, and this is something
that I can speak on, like a lotof addicts.
Some of those feelings thatthey run from or numb is guilt
and shame, and those are two andI hate saying bad feelings, but
those are feelings that we havelabeled as bad.
They're horrible.
They feel awful.
When you feel guilty or whenyou feel shame, that feeling

(20:18):
almost seems insurmountable.
And there were several timeswhere he would look at me and
say things like I've done toomuch damage.
You deserve better.
Like just leave me.
Like do yourself a favor andleave me, I deserve it.
Like that's.

(20:40):
I know what you're goingthrough right now.
I know you're feeling a lot ofthings, but you need to feel
them.
And so he sat on thisprescription cause he did.
He went to the doctor, got aprescription, sat on this
prescription for a minute and Iwas like just don't.
I was very much like I need youto feel these things.
You need to feel them.
The only way through it is tofeel it.

(21:01):
So I don't want you to numbthem.
And we sat and talked with ourpsychiatrist.
I said please don't starttaking them until we talk to Dr.
Shealy and see what he says, andwe made an appointment.
Dr Shealy was like.
I really think you will getthrough this much quicker if you
feel them to their fullestextent.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
You need to feel these things, no matter how
uncomfortable.
He needed to feel guilt, yeah,and he needed to feel shame yeah
, and sorry, I'm not trying togo on like a side tangent about
sobriety, but that's kind of whyI was like this is, this is a
topic that I like want to treadlightly with, because I don't
want to feel like I'm.
I don't want it to come acrossas I'm like judging people if

(21:45):
you're on medications, but Ijust want you to hear this and
know what this is saying.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, and I want to add to that because, um, we have
a lot of people who come to usand they're asking, they're
they're wanting to do a heroicjourney and they come to us for
help and to ask questions andall of that.
But there have been a lot ofpeople who they are on an SSRI
or a benzo and they want to gofrom the SSRI straight to

(22:14):
mushroom journey Because they'rethinking that it's going to do
it.
It's almost like they took the,they took the SSRI and then
they've been taking it for solong and they feel like it
doesn't work anymore and then sothey want to do another
modality and just go right to it.
The problem with that is they'revery different medicines who

(22:37):
have, you know, again, ssriskind of numb those feelings
where, if you do a mushroomjourney, it brings feelings to
the surface and it can bringuncomfortable feelings like the
guilt, shame, anger, all thestuff that you've been trying to
avoid, all of the stuff thatyou've been numbing and trying

(22:58):
to maybe avoid, or kind of pushdown.
It's going to bring it up.
And so, like we always like towarn people like these work in
very, very different ways and ifyou're not ready for the
mushrooms in that way, then itmight not be the right time, or
you may need to work with atherapist and work on like

(23:20):
slowly learning to feel yourfeelings, because it can, you
can do this, and it may feellike it's too much because
you're not used to to feelingthe things that you need to feel
.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
I really like what you just said, like work with
someone on working, like slowlyworking on how to feel your
feelings.
Yeah, yeah, that, I think, iswhat we were never taught, Never
never, never.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
And sometimes I also don't think that talk therapy is
necessarily the mode it can be,but it might not be the
modality to best help you withthat, to which I say somatic
therapy.
Somatic therapy can besomething to look into and could

(24:09):
be very beneficial, because itis.
It's like you are learning tosit with that feeling and like
where do you feel it, what doesit feel like, and get curious
about it, because it's there fora reason.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
And you know, suppressing it, it's going to
come out.
It may not come out in the sameway.
It may come out and when you'rearguing with your partner,
you're talking to your kids, oryou know, some present moment
triggers an old wound, you know,um.
So I highly, highly encouragesomatic therapy.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
That's a good one If it's something that, like you,
genuinely want to work on, ifit's something that, like you,
genuinely want to work on and itseems, it seems easy talking
about it now, but I feel like Iremember having to have
conversations with my husbandabout like he's like what do you
mean feel your feelings?
And it seems like what do youmean?
What do you mean Like, how doyou not know how to feel your

(25:01):
feelings?
I don't think I realized howmany people don't know how to do
that.
Yeah, Because I didn't fullyknow how to do it.
Um, in the last episode we did,you talked, you brought up how
when I was on medication, when Iwas on SSRIs, like I was kind
of numb to the things that hedid.

(25:21):
Yeah, and very, we could gointo that if we wanted to.
About and talk about summerhouse and the situation that's
happening and the person who isnumbed out.
Because I don't know if youshould.
We little bit, little bit whynot?
Christina's got me on to bravo.
I'm sorry my husband is so madat me.

(25:42):
Okay, Let me just let everyoneknow.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I have, like my mom was a single mom, so a lot of
times she wasn't home.
So you know when I was watchingthe real world Okay, when I was
like, but you know why?
Because I like watching.
And now it's gotten to thepoint where I've like cut back
on it so much because I'm like alot of these things have gotten
really ridiculous.
But I just like watching peopleand do what they do, just

(26:12):
whatever how they interact withothers, how they respond to
conflict, like I like thepsychology of like people just
being together and you just thedifferent dynamics.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, I didn't start getting into this stuff until
last year.
It's okay, like you gave me alist and I've, I'm going down
the list and I can say I candefinitely say I'm.
The psychology behind theseshows is very, very interesting.
And some people are like, oh myGod, like I can't believe you

(26:46):
watch that trash TV, like that'swhat my husband says anyway,
like this is so trashy, it's sodramatic, like this has to be
affecting you negatively and I'mlike maybe pre healed Leah,
like it probably would haveaffected me negatively.
But like where I am now, it'sinteresting watching it because
I'm watching these things happenand I can tell who's evolving

(27:09):
and who isn't.
And I'm, I'm it's in SummerHouse.
I'm only on season six rightnow, but I am watching my
marriage on TV.
On TV, yeah, and it is hard.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Because this person is an alcoholic and no one's
saying it.
And and we, no one talks aboutit.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
We've talked about this, so who we're talking about
.
If you don't, if you watch theshow.
His name is Kyle cook and he'sthe one who started the show
summer house.
Um, they go to the Hamptons.
They live in new york city, butthey go to the hamptons every
week, every weekend.
Um, he's in his 40s, um, hiswife is like maybe a decade
younger.

(27:54):
Um, I think they're nine yearsapart yeah, she, he, he has
cheated on her, he gets blackout, drunk and cheats on her yep,
he gets blackout drunk and he'sin his 40s and you watch him
from season one and I think nowwe're just it.
Just, they just wrapped upseason eight.
He has not evolved at all.
It's hard, but he never getsflack for it, because he's the

(28:20):
fun drunk and but and she's thecrazy one, right, but he's the
fun drunk for and she's thecrazy one, right, but he's the
fun drunk for everyone else, notfor her, not for his wife, and
so for his wife he's not funbecause he's staying out till
four o'clock in the morning.
He's blacked out.
He's blacking out, not answeringhis phone, not answering his
phone, cheating on her withother girls.

(28:40):
He gaslights the shit out ofher Like he tells her she's
boring, she's no fun.
Yeah, they have, and this isI'm like you're an idiot, but
they have an alcohol company.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
They literally own a company.
Yeah, they like an alcohol,yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
So they own a company , loverboy, and so he has to go
out promoting their products onthe show.
They drink, lover boy, nightand day, like all the time.
And so I'm like at what pointis this gonna start turning?
It already is, and we'rewatching it turn into a problem,

(29:19):
but at what point is he gonnaacknowledge that this is a
problem and he's probably gonnato lose his wife at some point?
Oh, I hope so.
Well, and then just the otherweek there were videos that came
out of him where he's at a barin Charleston and it looks
suspicious he's with anotherwoman.
They're not doing it, he's likerubbing her back or something,

(29:42):
but it looks like littlecompromising, that you could be
cheating, there could be a casefor it and it's just like.
You know, again, you, I alwayshave this belief.
So one I don't like talking toany of my neighbors.
Tony used to always hang outwith his neighbors and they used
to like all drink and hang outall the time.

(30:04):
They used to like all drink andhang out all the time.
My personal opinion when youget a group of adults who are
our parents, who are maybe notworking on their marriages, are
unhappy individually, and thenyou all party together and get
fucked up to escape yourproblems.
And get fucked up to escapeyour problems.

(30:24):
Bad shit is bound to happen,it's inevitable, it's just a
matter of time.
And so you're watching theseshows and you're like you're
watching this train wreck, andit is.
It's fucked up to watch.
But I think sometimes you seeyourself, especially your

(30:46):
wounded self, in a lot of thesepeople, and how they respond to
their partner, how they respondto conflict, how, um, they take
care of themselves.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
It's pretty pretty wild to watch.
It's, it's incredible to watch.
So I'm still two seasons behind, but, like, I will watch some,
watch a few episodes and then,like, message you and be like I
don't know what's going on now,but this is what I'm seeing and
this is how I feel.
So I was messaging you aboutAmanda and the way that her

(31:13):
husband talks to her after he'sbeen out drinking.
It's not a big deal.
Everybody was out, literallylike watching my fucking
marriage pre-sober husband whereI would just get gaslit into.
I'm not allowed to be angrybecause everybody gets drunk and

(31:34):
nothing happened.
Chill, the fuck out.
Like I came home, didn't I like?
And the emotional turmoil thatshe goes through when he's not
picking up his phone, like, andthen gets labeled as crazy,
right, right For calling him 27times in a row.
Right, if they had kids, likewe had kids and he wouldn't come

(31:58):
home and I would be freakingthe fuck out.
Yeah, Once I went on medication, I stopped caring.
Right, like, it was just like.
Well, he'll come home whenever,it's fine.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
If he doesn't, he doesn't.
And I said to you, if she's noton medication yet, she will be,
which and I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Spoiler alert I did tell Leah I was like well, she
just announced on this mostrecent reunion she is on
antidepressants Becausedepression runs in her family.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, and when she said that I was like oh girl it
doesn't though We've said thisbefore but like no, it doesn't.
Like it's not a chemicalimbalance, it doesn't run in
your family, like what I thinkdoes happen is you are not
taught these things, like youdon't know, you're not standing
up for yourself.

(32:57):
And she does.
She tries, but she gets shutdown.
So it's like it's justincredibly hard to watch,
because I used to be that personwho thought I had a voice and
then I was overpowered andovershadowed and I became the
shell of myself.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
And that's what I see in her.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
And it's you know, I and he's so likable by everybody
else.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
It's so infuriating.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
But the thing is is people still think like
depression is a chemicalimbalance and it runs in your
family.
And to that I argue okay, let'ssay your mom was depressed,
okay.
And to that I argue OK, let'ssay your mom was depressed, ok.
Now imagine being raised by amother who has severe depression
and what that may be like for achild, and that's all that they

(33:47):
know.
But the patterns that she has,the behaviors that she has, the
way that she deals with conflict, the way that she deals with
herself, like the self-worth.
You are learning that.
So it's not necessarily likeshe has it so you automatically
have it right, it's that, thatis your environment and that's

(34:08):
what you're being taught.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Those are the coping skills that you're looking and
learning from Right, like you'relearning how to behave Right
Through that Right Childhood.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
And also you're probably being raised by a mom
who didn't have the tools andwasn't equipped and so didn't
know how to handle or deal withsomething like depression and
and so you are like we havetools now, yeah.

(34:44):
So I don't really know where Iwas going with that, but it was
just an interesting concept.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
I remember taking a class um several years ago and
it was about psychedelics andSSRIs, um, and antidepressants,
and it was giving a visual oflike why they say like you
shouldn't be on SSR, SSRIs whenyou're doing psychedelic therapy

(35:09):
and why they try to reallyencourage like people weaning
off.
But this visual has always,always, always, stuck with me.
So when you are comparing anantidepressant or an SSRI or
SNRI um to psychedelics and theway that they work as
medications, as tools, um, astools, this visual and I hope

(35:39):
this sticks with other peopletoo was it's raining and this
person is out in the rain onSSRIs, unbothered, Like it's
raining, but like it is what itis the person who was on the
psychedelics, it was raining andthey pulled out an umbrella and
that, to me, is the difference.

(35:59):
Like interesting, you can sit inthe rain and be unbothered by
it, or you can troubleshoot andfigure out a way that you don't
have to get wet.
And that's kind of where I feltthat I was like, oh my God, I
was so unbothered and then itwould get to a point where I

(36:20):
never had to up my dose.
I weaned off after the firstround of dose.
But I know several people whogo up and up and up in their
doses because they start to feelthings again.
Yeah, because your body buildsa tolerance to it.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
There's someone I know who she was like.
She's younger than me and she'sat the highest dose that you
can get and she's stillstruggling.
You know who I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I do know who you're talking about.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
And it's hard to watch.
It's so hard to watch becauseshe's grasping at everything.
And I see the shame that shefeels for still struggling with
depression and I've tried to belike, hey, you should listen to
our podcast.
I know, I know Check us out.

(37:13):
But.
But if you're listen to ourpodcast, I know you should check
us out.
But if you're not ready to seeit, but it is it's hard to watch
someone you know and lovestruggle with their feelings
when you're like, oh no, baby, Iwant you to feel them and it's
going to be probably really hardand really uncomfortable for a
little bit, and it's going to beprobably really hard and really

(37:34):
uncomfortable for a little bit.
But I do think like you wouldget a very much needed release
from just allowing yourself totruly just feel it and let your
body and listen to what thosefeelings are telling you.
Because, had.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
I been aware of that before and I just always thought
that I was going to likestruggle with depression and I
didn't realize like, oh, I'mdepressed because my environment
isn't safe.
I was about to say I can't feelmy feelings because my

(38:09):
environment is not allowing meto feel my feelings feel my
feelings because my environmentis not allowing me to feel my
feelings.
So with that, can we go into,like maybe co-regulation?
Yeah, because self-regulationis when you are capable of
regulating your emotions withoutreacting.
That's another part ofemotional sobriety is like you

(38:29):
are able to get yourself to apoint where you're not
emotionally reactive, you canfeel your feelings and then you
can respond, which is likethat's a goal everybody should
really have.
Like emotional reactions arenot fun, right?

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Right and I'm somebody who like like very big
problem for me my entire life.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
But you've gotten so much better Like very big
problem for me my entire life.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
But you've gotten so much better.
I know, I know, but that waslike something like I was very
emotionally reactive, yeah, like, and it was very instant, like
I felt anger, I reacted on thatanger.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
So that should be, and I should have said this
before but that's another partof emotional sobriety.
So it's not just the notreaching and numbing, it's also
being able to not react in themoment.
Um and so with self-regulation.
I don't know if this is goingto make sense to some people
Hopefully it does but like if Iam having an emotional wave and

(39:27):
I am spiraling for a long time,it would like stress my husband
out and then he would startspiraling, and then we're both
just in this like fuckingtornado of emotions and neither
one of us can get out of it,because I need him to be calm
and he needs me to be calm.
And then we're just like, yeah,it's a fucked up situation and

(39:50):
it takes us a very long time toget out of it, and like oh God,
okay, tony.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Tony and I are very similar because, like, he is
very reactive and I am veryreactive.
So then together, if like, it'slike, we get along, wonderful,
but if there's something like wereally butt heads on, it's you
getting that tornado?
Oh yeah, because it's it's on,it's you getting that tornado?
Oh yeah, because it's.
It's.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
It's just hard because he's reactive and I'm
reactive well, I also think fora long time my husband wasn't
used to me expressing myemotions.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, I'm sure um yeah, because you were somebody
who you weren't necessarilyreactive, you withdrew and
isolated.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
I yeah, I kept it all in.
Yeah, and so it wasn't.
I was never like reactive tohim.
I would like.
My trauma response was to liketo fawn and be like I'm sorry, I
got mad at you last night fornot coming home.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, I have never related to anything.
I know we are very similar butpolar opposites.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Right, I know, I know and I get that Like looking
back on it now I'm like, oh myGod, that was so ick, yeah, but
both are ick.
Can you imagine?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
like losing your shit and you're like, okay, like I
didn't probably need to, thatwasn't necessary.
Right, right, they're all ick.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Come on, like the whole goal is to like be
regulated Right.
Um?
So when I did start expressingmy emotions because I realized
like this was after my firstmushroom journey, like oh, I
have to like get this stuff outof me, he was not having it Like
he was like I like you betteron medication and I'm like of
course you do, cause there's noaccountability and you don't
feel guilty and you don't haveto like apologize to me for shit
, like of course you did, butI'm not doing that, I'm raw

(41:42):
dogging from now on.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Good for you, and I've been raw dogging ever since
.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
And it took it's like practice with anything else.
It took him a long time to beable to like be okay with me
expressing my emotions and ittook it's like practice with
anything else.
It took him a long time to beable to like be okay with me
expressing my emotions and ittook me a long time to feel
comfortable doing that.
Yeah, but one of the thingsthat was really really difficult
for us was that co-regulation.
And I used to say this to himall the time Like when you start

(42:08):
spiraling, it takes me so muchlonger to pull myself out of
this hole, but like if you staycalm, it helps me.
I can do it without you.
I don't need you to regulate me.
I really I can do thisperfectly fine on my own.
It's just going to take alittle bit longer, but if you're

(42:28):
calm around me, it happens much, much quicker.
But if you're calm around me,it happens much, much quicker.
So that to me, is like thatco-regulation, the healthy
co-regulation, that like beingin a safe space and having
someone who can help youregulate.
It's kind of what we do when wesit with people, Like we are

(42:51):
letting you borrow our calmnervous system.
So when you are going through aturbulent journey.
You have someone there, who iscalm, that you can like ground
with.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, and I don't like like when we, when we say
like we sit with people we'renot really doing anything, but
like, let's say, someone isgoing through a really
challenging journey, I may justgo and place my hand on their
back just to let them know thatI'm there, it's okay, they're
safe, they're not alone.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
I have one friend.
I feel like she would be okaywith me saying this Sarah, who
just fucking?
Oh God she goes through it.
She goes through her.
Journeys are never easy and Ihave never experienced this with
anybody but her.
But she is like sobbing into mybosom like a little baby and I

(43:43):
am just rocking her like a babylike trying to help her calm
down.
And I'm helping her regulate hernervous system and I am like
staying calm, like, but at thesame time I'm like it's fine.
I think she's okay with mesaying that she's very open

(44:04):
about her journeys and what shegoes through, and and maybe one
day she can talk about it againon here, because they're hard
for her, yeah, but about itagain on here because they're
hard for her, yeah, but I'msaying this because we've talked
about, like how, until you likeembody it, you don't really
understand it.
But this is something I've beentrying to explain to my husband
for years.
Like I need you to stay calm.

(44:24):
Like if you get in a tizzy,then I can't pull myself out of
it.
Like me having anxiety likeused to freak him out, like, and
then he would get anxiety.
And I'm talking like simplethings, like we're having a
derby party and I need help andI'm like freaking out and I'm
yelling at you to do this, andI'm yelling at you to do this

(44:44):
and why is nobody helping me?
And then he would startpanicking.
And then now it's gotten to thepoint where he like stays calm
and then I start to calm down.
Co-regulation um, we nevertalked about this on an episode,
so I'm going to say it and I'mnot going to give the whole
story, but I'm going to explainwhy it finally started clicking

(45:10):
with us.
We did a mushroom journey atthe same time together last
November or maybe December.
Yeah, jason and I my husbandand I we've never done that
before.
We've always done themseparately, like solo journeys.
But this time we were like,let's do it together at the same

(45:32):
time and we did six grams each.
And we're laying in bed andbefore the peak of it starts
happening, I'm like you've seenme like this in ayahuasca, like
my body starts convulsing andlike I cannot stop and it's.
I'm having a very somaticexperience, like my body is

(45:53):
releasing all this stuff.
Yeah, I can't stop it.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
I'm shaking like a dog.
Well, when we did ayahuasca, Ishould have just.
It was just your leg.
You're like thumper, like pop,pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop pop
.
I should have just sat on yourleg.
Yes, you should have just beenlike I'm co-regulating with you,
bitch, Let me regulate yournervous system.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Um, but for like, I've never had this happen
before.
It was just this one time.
So we're laying in bed andwe're both like with our
blindfolds on and I'm likeshaking and I can't stop.
And so like finally, after afew minutes, like he reaches
over and he pulls me to him andhe pulls me into him.
And the second he did, Istopped shaking and then I was

(46:35):
like, oh wow, that was cool.
And then I was like, okay, I'mregulated.
Now I'm good, I'll go back overto my side of the bed and I
like roll back over and then itstarts again.
I was like what the fuck?
Like why can't I stop shaking?
And he pulls me back in andthat's where I stayed the rest
of the journey.
It was like on him, on hischest, he's like got his arm

(46:59):
around me and I stopped shaking.
But after that we talked aboutit and I was like I don't think
you realize how much yournervous system and my nervous
system are like connected,they're intertwined yeah, like

(47:19):
you are my safe space and youare my partner and so when you
are calm, it helps me stay calmand I try to do the same for you
, like if you're upset or ifyou're going through something,
I want to be that calm personfor you.
But for my husband it wasreally hard for him because he's

(47:40):
never had to do that.
He's never had to do that foranybody.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Not even for himself, Right.
So that was how, and we reallyhaven't had many situations
since then where I've been likeyou're not staying calm for me,
Like that emotional, like I needyour emotional support right
now, and you're not doing it.
It's been like I don't want tosay life changing, but like it's

(48:10):
like he understood finally howimportant it was for him to stay
calm because he saw it.
He watched it happen physically.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Do Tony and I need to do a journey together.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
I don't want to say yes, but maybe.
But it might not be like that,it might be something completely
different, right?
So how.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Since then, how has your relationship changed in the
sense of like him showing upfor you in a different way to
help you co-regulate, and whatdoes that look like so?

Speaker 1 (48:50):
I have.
Well, first off, there haven'tbeen a lot of instances where
I've like gotten so emotionallydysregulated that I'm like
losing my shit.
We all know that last year Iwent through like my rage spells
and that hasn't happened.
But, um, I was trying to giveyou an example the other day.
Um, let's say, like we rentedour house out for the PGA tour

(49:12):
and so like, for for weeksbefore that.
I was like so anxious andcleaning and doing so much.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
And you and I are very similar in that way.
Like sometimes those littlethings can feel very
overwhelming and I get veryoverstimulated and anxious about
them and then like yeah, it was, it was a lot, it was, it was
so many things.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
And there were.
I was like yelling at, like mykids, like I told you to clean
your bathroom and you didn'tclean the bathroom.
And even my 16 year old waslike, mom, calm down, you need
to calm down.
And I'm like, don't tell me tocalm down.
But then Jason comes and he'slike, do you need to take a
break?
And I'm like, yes, yes, I do.

(49:56):
And he was like all right, goin the room, I'll, I'll help
them with the bathroom, like hehelps now, or he'll check in
with me Like um, there was anexample I was telling you and I
don't remember the specifics ofwhy, but like I was upset and I
came downstairs and I was doinga workout and I was like up,
like visibly, I removed myselffrom the situation and came

(50:19):
downstairs and it was like midworkout and he comes down and
he's like are you okay?
Like he checked in on me andeven that like is not something
he used to do, like before.
I'm like what, you're not goingto check it on me?
You knew I was mad, you knew Ileft the room and he was like,
but he doesn't know what to dowith that, though Like it's
almost like I know, but I'mscared of you.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Tony does that a lot.
I don't know what to do.
I'm scared.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yes, he I think a lot of men are natural fixers and
problem solvers.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Yeah, and so, like holding space and sitting and
being calm and like kind of inthis, not fixing it, but being
more like are you okay?
What do you need from me?
Like showing up in that wayinstead of like curiosity.
Yeah, instead of curiosity, andsome flexibility instead of

(51:14):
like okay, so she's mad, this Ido.
A, b, c, d.
It's like.
Well, not not always.
Like I may need differentthings in different situations.
Like right, but their thinkingcan oftentimes be.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Can I fix this black and white?
Yes, and how can I fix it?
Yes, and what if I can't fix it, then then we're fucked right.
So, yeah, it's helped, but I Ithink it also goes to show that
it's like super important that,like, whenever you're doing this
and this is why I say like noteverybody can just feel their

(51:52):
feelings, because they're not inan environment where it's safe
to do so- and what do you say tothat?
Oh my God, oh my God.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Well, that's the other thing.
Going back to Summer House, how?
She's like yeah, I strugglewith depression and I'm thinking
well, your husband is analcoholic, your husband does not
emotionally validate you, yourhusband is abusive, Like, so
depression sounds about rightconsidering your situation.

(52:24):
And again, people who come tous for help when they are
struggling with these things,and then they tell us a little
bit about their, their life.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
You're like that makes sense.
Yeah, so it's.
It's not.
It means not going to work foryou because you're in an you're
in an environment that is notsafe.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Yeah, it may work for you for two weeks, right, but
it's not gonna like.
So I I understand and I feellike it's your body's natural
way of being like this isn'tworking for me.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
These medicines are not going to change your life
unless you're willing to changeyour life.
I forgot.
I said that once.
Fucking amen, amen, that'spreach the word, sister, because
I literally just met someone afew weeks ago and we were having

(53:23):
like dinner and she was openingup to me about like I probably
shouldn't give details I'm notgoing to give details, but how
she's been struggling withdepression and has treatment
resistant depression and she'stried ketamine and she's done
retreats and she's done A, b andC and D and E and F and none of
them are working.
And now she's going through adivorce and like feels better.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
And I was talking to her about the ketamine, I was
like, do you feel like it workedlike for a little bit of time?
And she's like it did.
and I was like until it, did ituntil life came back, right
until until you realize you'restill in the same environment.
Like you cannot remove a fishfrom dirty water and get the
fish healthy and then put itback in the dirty water.
You can't.
So a lot of times when peopleyou're right, like people will

(54:08):
message us all the time likethis is happening and this is
happening, and this is happeningand this is going on.
And this is how long I've beenstruggling and this is what I've
tried and nothing's working.
And when you really get down toit, it's like it's all about
your environment and who you'rearound and your safety and there

(54:29):
are people who are not willingto shake that up.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
No, and that's okay, like, but you may feel this way,
continue to feel this waybecause of that Like.
So it's like the medicine,mushrooms or you know, whatever
modality you're using.
It may be a catalyst and openyour eyes to something.

(54:57):
But if you're not willing tolike, change your atmosphere or
change certain patterns, thenyou're going to go back to those
old ways.
And so I've talked to peopleand they're like you know, I
have this shitty relationshipand I hate this with my job, and
so I'm depressed and it just iswhat it is.

(55:17):
And so I'll try to say thingslike well, would you be willing
to do this, or would you bewilling to do that?
Or, you know, would you beinterested in looking into this
more?
And oftentimes, when they'relike no, it just is what it is,
I'm like OK, so then you're notready to change.
It's never, it is what it is.
Right, you just want me tolisten and just whatever.

(55:40):
But like that's not what I'mhere for.
I'm here to help you move inthis way, if, if, if you want to
, but you gotta be willing to doput in some work with it.
And not everybody is ready forthat, right, because it is.
It's like it is hard to look atyour relationship.
It is hard to look at, like youknow if you need to quit that

(56:02):
job.
It is hard to look at, likeyour life patterns and your
unhelp, unhealthy copingmechanisms, like it's hard to
look at all of that stuff anddissect it and figure out why
you do that and what else youcould do instead, or whatever.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
But you just said something and it reminded me of
something that I can possiblyshare, because I think this has
come up a few times too, wherewhere we have had people reach
out and they've done a mushroomjourney but, like, nothing is
different for them, or theydidn't get a lesson in the
journey or they don't know whatto do and they don't know how to
integrate and we've said that alot and I think there is.

(56:43):
We never went into it because II once upon a time wanted him
to talk about it on his own.
My husband talk about like hisjourney, because he talked about
, like, getting sober and whatthat was like, like, but he
never really said how and it wasvery vague, like, yes, he did a
mushroom journey and, yes,that's what ultimately led him

(57:03):
to get sober, but he didn't domushrooms and wake up sober the
next day, right, that neverhappened, and I think a lot of
people might hear me say thatand think that that's what
happened, like he did mushroomsto get sober and that's why he's
been sober for three years.
It's not his story, and whatyou were saying earlier, like

(57:24):
doing something like this, mightwake you up to things.
And I will say this it took himtwo to three months for him to
finally decide that he needed toget sober Things in our life.
After his mushroom journey gotworse, amplified, my panic
attacks started getting worseand what I said to someone the

(57:48):
other day I was like, for what Ithink happened is that journey
opened him up, it woke him up,it was.
It removed this veil that hehad where he thought that, like
my panic attacks were fake orthey were for attention or it
was because I had emotionalproblems.

(58:09):
It was because I had emotionalproblems and he for the first
time saw me having these attacksand these mental breakdowns and
was like oh my God, those arebecause of the way that I'm
treating her.
He was waking up to the factthat his actions were causing

(58:31):
harm in our relationship.
He didn't wake up and think Ineed to be sober.
That's not how it happened.
So a lot of times people thinkthat, like the mushrooms, or
like the psychedelics, or what'sgoing to fix you, and it's like
no, no, no, no, no, those arejust like they're a little push
and they're going to show youthings, but you, like, free will

(58:53):
is still a thing Like you haveto ultimately be the one to make
a decision and where thosechanges need to happen.
You have to make the decisionto make those changes.
It'll show you where it'll showyou where those things are going
to show the fuck up and they'regoing to get loud.
And I remember at one point himsaying well, it didn't work for

(59:16):
me because life is worse nowthan it was before.
And I found an article andmaybe I could still find it, but
it was this article that talkedabout how life will get harder
after doing a psychedelic,because things are amplified
amplified and you're not seeingthem for what you thought they

(59:36):
were.
You're seeing them for as theyactually are shit and so it will
seem harder.
It was harder for me, it washarder for him like.
To think that you're going tocome out of this and it's going
to be rainbows and butterfliesis a very naive way of thinking.
And maybe it is.
Maybe that is how it works foryou, because maybe you have a

(01:00:00):
really good support team, maybeyour relationship was already
rock solid, maybe your workenvironment is healthy and great
that's awesome.
But for the people who reallyneed to be shaken up like it's
going to fucking shake themupside down and on their heads
and say these are all the thingsand it's going to get louder.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
And I want to add to that.
So I did a mushroom journeyabout three weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
And that I have.
No, I that we have not talkedabout, and I'm dying to hear
about it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
And this is like such a pattern.
But my ancestors showed upagain and a lot of the message
was you keep trying to do in amanifesting generator and
generator world, and that's notwhat you're meant to do.
You are meant to do in amanifesting generator and
generator world and that's notwhat you're meant to do.
You are meant to just be andyou are meant to be like you and

(01:01:02):
that's it.
Like that's literally.
What you're meant to do here onthis earth is to just be you and
figure out what that is, andthat's really hard because it is
very hard just because we livein a society that is a do, do,
do society, and your worth isbased on what you do, yeah, and

(01:01:25):
so, like I have really, uh,struggled with what my purpose
is, because I have alwaysequated it as what is it that I
need to do here on this earth,and they were like bitch, no,
like that's not it.

(01:01:47):
That's not what you're meant todo.
You're comparing yourself toeverybody else and what they're
doing and you are not meant todo that you are meant to be.
But so I have had more anxietysince my journey.
It's amplified, um, like I Iactually kind of feel it right

(01:02:10):
now where I have felt liketingly in my arms and have just
felt anxious.
But I know why it is it'sbecause I've been too busy doing
things and not just like beingand sitting with myself enough,
and so I've been trying to makethese little changes.

(01:02:32):
But I also know I have to, like,do a little bit more dissecting
with my life and figure outsome things that I need to say
no to so I can rest more and bemore and just sit with myself,
not go to my phone.
Sit with myself, not go to myphone, not go to TV.

(01:02:53):
We go on a lot of trips forTony's work.
You travel a lot, travel a lot.
I have a lot of different hatswith different little jobs here
and there, and so it just it'stoo much and my body's telling
me it's too much and you need tosit and figure out, like, the
things that you need to say noto.

(01:03:15):
And so, instead of me beinglike, oh my God, I did this
journey and now I have anxiety,this is annoying, it's like no,
my body is telling me that Ineed less, and so I need to,
like, really take a look at thatand figure out what I need to
pull back from.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Why can't we just live on a beach and be like, do
nothing, like that would be.
Why do we?
Why do we have to live likethis, like?
Why does everybody have to liveLike like?
Why we have to pay taxes?
Why do we have to have jobs?
Why do we have to like do allthe things and buy all the

(01:03:55):
things I know I just want likewater and some land and to just
like frolic because I agree.
I think that, like so manypeople are like what's my
purpose?
What's my purpose?
And I, I it's hard to like,tell someone like it's just to
be you, be authentically you,because so many people don't

(01:04:17):
know what that means.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
But I've, you know it's hard because it's like,
well, one, if you don't knowyour human design, there's that
part Like how do you know Right,you know what I mean Right.
And so, like there are peoplewho in my life, like I have a
lot of wonderful people LikeTony, is this hustler and
entrepreneur.
You go down these rabbit holes.

(01:04:41):
This person has this thing.
So I'm like what is my thing?
Like I don't know what my.
So I've struggled with that andit's not personally against any
of you guys.
I hope you guys know that it'sno, I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Yeah, because I I like you say that about me, but
I'm like, but I don't thinkthat's my purpose, right, I
don't feel like that, but like Iprobably bring something else
to the table to someone elseLike Jason's, probably not.
Like my wife is awesome.
She goes down so many rabbitholes.
Like my wife is awesome, shegoes down so many rabbit holes.
Like for Jason, I'm somethingcompletely different because I'm
just doing what I'm supposed tobe doing with that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Right, and there's even still a little bit, a
little part of me where I'm likehow am I meant to be then?
Like how, like if, like, if I'mjust meant to show up as myself
authentically and then thingswill come to me, because that
was the other thing.

(01:05:43):
Like you, be you and thingswill come to you for you.
But I'm like, okay, but likehow?

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
do I be me, how do I be me, how do I be me?

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
Right.
And so now I'm like insituations where, like I would
go work out and listen to apodcast or sit in the sauna or
go for a walk.
I'm trying to not do any ofthat and just actually just sit
with myself like go for a walkwithout music, without

(01:06:17):
headphones, without your phoneyeah, without the distraction to
just sit with myself and figurethat out, and I think that's
actually going to take a littlebit of time for me holy shit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I think that that's like really hard for anybody
like I go on drives and I listento music.
But like what if I just went ona silent drive?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
I'm constantly distracted.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Silent walk.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Even if I'm resting, you're right, cause I'm on my
phone, I'm watching TV, I'mreading.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
When I'm resting, I'm watching.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
TV Right, and doesn't mean that those things are are
are bad and I'm not going to notdo those things anymore.
But it's like to me, likereading podcasts, tv being with
Tony, being out with otherpeople those are all wonderful
things, but like I don't sitwith myself ever.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Have you ever thought about doing like a solo retreat
?
But not like you had to pay abunch of money and go and do a
retreat.
There's something they callthem something like solo
journeys where you are out inthe woods for like a few days
and it's just you by yourselfand you don't have anything else
.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
I would be worried about a bear or a man.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
I'm just saying Probably the man.
I would be more worried aboutthe man.
But instead of doing that, whydon't you like book a cabin at
red river gorge for just you forthe weekend?

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Cause.
Like I'm with you on that, likeI'm not, I'm not like a naturey
enough to be out in nature bymyself with a tent.
I've never camped in my life.
I am a glamping queen but Ihave never camped Like when I
say outdoorsy, like I want, likea bougie ass cabin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
With like Right Quartz countertops and I don't
want it to look loggy quartzcountertops, and I don't want it
to look loggy, you and I.
Camping is like giving me parisand nicole richie 100.
I can't do it.
I can't do it, I'm just a girlbut yes, like why you should do

(01:08:31):
something like that, like justbook a cabin away.
What if, like, we book likecabins together but like
separate?
Yeah, for the same weekend.
Yeah, here's the other thingtoo.
Anybody else want to come?
Anybody else want to meet us atthe gorge, but everybody's in
their own separate cabins Nottalking to each other Not

(01:08:54):
talking to each other, nottalking to each other, but we're
just there for moral support,knowing that like if I need
anybody, I can call you andyou're like a cabin away Right
Carpool yeah.
Just emotional regulationsupport.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
But the thing I realize is, like oftentimes when
I was a kid, I was alone and Iwant to go back to that, but in
a different, from a differentlens.
I understand what you're sayingLike, because then it felt like
abandonment, yeah, and now thisfeels more like empowering.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Absolutely.
Yeah, like reframe thatloneliness.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Yeah, so also I sent.
Well, tony sent Leah a video ofme, because so I did when you
were on your, when you were onmushrooms yeah, I did mushrooms
and mdma just because I wantedto see how which is?

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
go, which is called hippie flipping, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
I loved it, and the reason why I loved it is because
I felt like with the MDMA, itadded another layer of
embodiment.
Oh, okay, like it was, I waslike going through this
experience, but I was likefeeling this experience.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
So part of it was because MDMA is like physical,
like you're not going tohallucinate on MDMA Right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
What Right?
So, like part of it was OK, sothese my ancestors showed up and
it's like you're not meant todo, you're here to just fucking
be, and then things will come toyou because you're just being
like the most authentic you.
And so the second part of itwas like okay, now, bitch,
embody that.

(01:10:45):
And so I felt like I texted you.
I felt like I had an exorcismin my bed, but I'm like, but not
in a bad way, it was a goodexorcism, but it was like me,
literally like feeling andembodying what it means to be me
.
So I was having like this wholeexperience on my bed where I

(01:11:09):
was just like rolling around andlike not touching myself in a
weird way, not in a weird way.
Not in a sexual way, yeah, butlike touching myself and like
actually feeling like this isyou, this is who you're meant to
be.
Now, just go actually likeyou're feeling it now, but now,
now go live it and go beat itand figure that out, like I'm

(01:11:33):
giving you like a little tasteand go beat it and figure that
out, like I'm giving you like alittle taste, a little sample of
what that means to truly, like,embody you and what you're
meant to do here, holy shit.
So that part was wild.
But then Tony sent you a video.
I could not stop laughing.
Yes, like I.
He came in to check if I wasokay and I, just I could not

(01:11:57):
stop laughing.
And the reason why, like Icould not stop laughing is then
the message was like bitches,try to be you, but they are not
you Like, so you can try, butyou ain't it.

(01:12:21):
Like I am my own unique selfand bitches be mad.
I don't know, I don't evenunderstand.
I don't understand that part,but it was like there are people
who may try to steal it or tryto dim it, but they can't right

(01:12:42):
and like yeah, can I add to that?

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
because not only can people not be you, but, like I
think, you might go through alittle bit of an identity crisis
soon.
I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know, Iwent through mine already, but I
feel like you've always like.
You said that to me you werelike, don't take offense, but
like you, go down these rabbitholes.

(01:13:08):
Why would I take offense tothat?
First off, second off, likethat's my thing.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:21):
I don't need you to do my thing.
I know that's what I do, I know, but, like you're, you're like
searching for your place.
I know and I'm like you have,you have a place.
I know.
It's literally what you'redoing is your place.
Yeah, like you have a role,like yeah, I couldn't describe
it, I couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
I think that's not.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
I think that's what I'm having a hard time with I
think that it's weird, because Ifeel like it is what it is.
It is just being you, like you,you're just you.
Yeah, you're funny, you'resmart, you're pretty.
I mean, those are stupid thingsbut like it's, like me trying
to date.

(01:13:53):
You, you're cute and you'refunny and you're smart and I
just really like you a lot.
But like you bring so much tothe table, but like I feel like
you think you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
And I don't know how to articulate.
I don't either what it is thatyou bring to the table, because
I feel like this message isspecific for you yeah, and so
that's where I'm a littleconfused about still, but I
think that's a hard one.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
That's what I'm meant to integrate, to find out, and
I think, too, that's anotherTestament on why integration is
so important, because that partis, I still don't fully
understand it yet, and so that'swhere I'm like okay which is
why we haven't talked about itright now you got to get to work
was like people may try toemulate you, but they never can,
because that's that's you andthat's only you, so like and

(01:14:40):
that's not like an ego thing, no, no but it's also like stop
worrying about other people yeah, like do you?
yeah, just be a bad bitch andthen figure what that means to
you.
I love that so much.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
How the hell do we start with emotional sobriety
and end with this?
I don't know.
I love it though.
I do too.
I absolutely love it.
I do too.
I also love we talked aboutthis the other day, but like
Years ago, like this is such aminor thing, but like we were
talking about how, like westruggled with our skin.

(01:15:17):
I have struggled with my skinmy entire life.
Like I didn't have teenage acne.
I've had lifelong adult acneadult acne Last year before I
retired, it was like so bad itwas all over my neck and chest,
which is always weird.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
And you show up on my face.
I know, but you and I both hadthe like acne on our chin and
hormonal.
And it's very hormonal, yeah,and I think chronic stress was a
huge factor.
I think we were doing things wedidn't love to do and it's
funny because both of our skinhas cleared up so much, because

(01:15:57):
we are, I think, stepping intoourselves and stepping into our
power and healing and doing thework.
And it's showing up on theoutside as well.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Yes, and this is what I said to you.
I said I think our lives nowhave more peace than they used
to have, like it doesn't mean wedon't go through shit, but like
there's so much more peace inwhat we're doing and in our
lives and in our family lives.
And again, it doesn't meanshit's perfect, but like there

(01:16:26):
were just a lot of things thatwe had to let go of.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
Here's the other interesting thing that I find
fascinating is that so youstarted this in 2020.
I started this in 2021 or 2022,2022.
Ok, oh wow, it's only been twoyears, that's wild.
Ok, but we have a lot ofparallels, but they come at

(01:16:54):
different times.
A hundred percent.
So I don't want to get too intoit.
I know we can, but I'm startingto read the heroine's journey.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
And every.
Finally, I'm like, oh fuck, ohshit, oh, okay, that makes so
much sense.
And right now, another thingthat I'm working on and that
I've realized about myself is Iam detaching from certain things

(01:17:33):
that used to, like reallytrigger the fuck out of me, and
so I brought something up to youLike I have felt anger about
this a parent of mine and nowI'm at this place where I feel
not saying that the things thatI experienced when I was a child

(01:17:58):
were they were unfair, theyweren't right, they were all of
those things.
Like I was allowed and valid tofeel those things and I needed
to feel them and I needed toseparate myself from this parent
because, like, I was angry andI was sad and I had grief and
all of those things.
But now I'm at the point whereI'm like they are not going to

(01:18:25):
give me what I need ever, but Idon't need it from them anymore
because I have figured out howto give it to myself.
I have learned how to be my ownmother and my own father.
I have learned how to be my ownmother and my own father, and
so I am able to still have themin my life because I've really

(01:18:47):
over.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
I've really felt like over the last month I've truly
been able to like detach alittle bit the way that you said
that to me when you texted me,that you were like I don't know
how to explain this, but I feeldisconnected, I feel detached,
but not in a bad bit.
The way that you said that tome when you texted me that you
were like I don't know how toexplain this, but I feel
disconnected.
I feel detached, but not in abad way, and I was like, yeah, I
know.
Well, I know exactly whatyou're talking about, because
it's what I had to do for myself.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Right, and it's funny .
Because what I love, though,about this friendship is you
were like and this is where,like, support is so important in
your partner, but also likehaving those friendships because
you're like I've been waitingfor you to get to this point, oh
, and like I had to go throughit, yeah, and I'm, I'm behind

(01:19:31):
you in that way.
Not I'm not comparing the race,but I'm just saying I had to go
through all of those feelings.
You had to go through exactlythat situation To get to the
point where I'm like yeah, Ididn't get those things, but I
don't need them anymore and Ican give them to myself now, and
so I don't need, like I don'thave that expectation from you.

(01:19:52):
Like I used to have like showup for me, me in this way,
because this is what I need.
It's like I don't need thatanymore.
So you're okay being you, but Igot it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
That is a level of healing.
I will say this about pushingbooks onto people, because I do
feel like I've sat on books foryears before I've picked them up
and read them and I feel likeevery time I do I started at the
time that I'm supposed to.
That's how I feel right now.
I feel like if I had read itsooner, I wouldn't have

(01:20:24):
understood it.
It wouldn't have been relevantto my life, even though someone
else may have thought it wouldbe.
I wasn't ready for that lesson.
So, yeah, the heroine's journeyfor me was like another layer in
like understanding myrelationship and my role in my
family with my mom, and it'ssomething that my sisters will
never understand, becausethey've like reached out to me

(01:20:46):
and been like how are you okaywith mom?
And I'm like I have detached,and it doesn't mean I don't love
her.
It doesn't mean I don't likethink of her as like my mom
anymore.
It's because I have detachedmyself from the expectation of
her showing up in a way thatshe's never been able to my

(01:21:08):
entire life.
So why would I think she coulddo it now?

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Well, and also her not being able to.
It's not something against you,right, that's her own stuff.
But also, for the longest time,like as a child and as an adult
, you do take it personally.
Yeah, it does feel verypersonal because they're your
parents and they should show upin a way that you need.
It's not, it's, it's, it'stheir wounds and it's again.

(01:21:32):
It's not, it's, it's, it'stheir wounds and it's again.
It's another motivation on whyI want to continue to heal.
But uh, oh shit, I was gonnasay something and I forgot I'm
so sorry it's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
Uh, I don't remember I'll think of it about, like the
friendships that are on thesame journey.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, because the wonderful
thing is is you allowed me tolike go through it and doctors
like when I've seen Dr Sheelyand have talked about this, he's
like you know, he hasconstantly told me, like you are
your own mom and dad and again,intellectually I know this.

(01:22:11):
You hear what he's saying, Iunderstand that, but I had to go
through that anger and grief onmy own and actually like feel
it, to then get to a point whereI am okay, like being more
detached from it?

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
Are you saying that you had to feel all of these
emotions in order to get to theother side of this lesson?

Speaker 2 (01:22:35):
That's exactly what I'm saying, Leah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
Did we just do a full loop-de-loop?

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
We did On accident, by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
That was a total accident.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Coincidence.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Like this is not even scripted.
Sometimes I surprise myself.
That was so awesome?

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
Which?
Can we talk about?
The text messages I sent to you?
Which ones so after my journey?
Oh, on your mushroom.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
I sent her pictures, which I screenshot All of them.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
I sent her pictures where I'm just like tears
streaming down my face and Ithink I said like thank you for
being the friend who can be withKai.
You watch Kai, be with Kai andI know that he's safe, while I
can go and find myself again.
And I think that is like We'vetalked about losing friendships,

(01:23:31):
but like when you find afriendship where you can be safe
to feel all the things and andfeel, feel like you can share
them with your partner and yourfriends, that's a that's a very
beautiful place to be in, so um.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
Yeah, yeah, thank you , that was the.
What did you say.
What did you say back?
You're like oh, yeah, yeah,thank you, that was the.
What did you say.
What did you say back?

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
you're like oh yeah, that's the MDMA talking right
now.
I was like oh, you took someMDMA, didn't you?
This is just a stupid funnything.
But like you sent me one photoof you like I'm sobbing right
now, and then, like 20 minuteslater, you sent me another photo
of you sobbing and I was likeyou already sent me this photo
and then I looked and it wasn'tthe same photo, it was just a
different photo of you sobbing.
But they were like happy tears,happy tears like they're just

(01:24:23):
feelings.
It's just feelings, it is justemotions.
Yes, and they are beautifulwhen they're good, yeah, and
they're hard when they're hard.
I don't want to say they'regood, yeah, and they're hard
when they're hard.
I don't want to say they're bad, because they're hard when
they're hard.
But look how far it's gottenyou, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
Well, and then also to like, if you're the feeler,
if you're the feeler in yourgroup or your family or whatever
, like you know, really try tomake sure you're in spaces where
you are allowed, you're safe,you're safe to feel.
And then also, if you'resomebody who is maybe a little

(01:25:05):
bit, you have a partner that'sthe feeler.
Hold space for each other, likehold space where it is okay to
feel those things, Even if theyfeel very, very uncomfortable
for you.
Feelings are not gonna kill youis somebody gonna match my
freak is somebody gonna match myfreak aka?

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
you just can cry with me and like let me cry and you
be my safe space.
That's what I mean by freak.
That's it.
Just hold space for me.
That's our kink, 100%.
That's a love language.
Seriously, it's our kink.
So.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Okay, I don't have anything else to add, but I love
, I kind of like where thisepisode went.

Speaker 1 (01:25:47):
I do too.
We haven't shot the shit in awhile.
It was Kadoos to us.
Kadoos.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
Okay, kudos, I know it's kudos, it's.
I've never heard you say that.
It's a Bravo thing, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Yep, but kadoos to us .
And if anybody Listen.
This is a new thing that wejust found out.
Buzzsprout, our podcastplatform, lets you send fan mail
.

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
Oh yeah, Via text.
Talk about that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
So you guys could like literally text us
mid-podcast and, like, send ussomething.
The thing is, we don't know whoit's from, though, and we can't
respond.
We could probably respond tothem in episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
Yeah, maybe we could do an episode where we're
responding to different things.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
Yeah, because we got our first one.
This is like a new update onBuzzsprout, but we got our first
one on June 5th and I'm goingto read it because I think we
should read them out loud topeople.
I don't know who this person is,but they are from Stockton,
california.
They said I'm a user ofpsychedelics.
They do have therapeutic value,but only in the right

(01:26:49):
environment, with qualifiedtherapists.
You could really fuck yourbrain up.
So you can't just woohoo, popsome acid and I'm fine, now, not
going to happen.
And to that we say we know,that's why we have a podcast
that talks about how to do thesethings safely.
Yeah, we know that we're notjust literally the point.

(01:27:12):
I don't know what episode theywere referring to, but I don't
know that we've ever saidanything like that in an episode
, without also going into thefact that like, by the way, yeah
this is not for everyone and,by the way, there is a safe way
to do this, and it doesn't justwork like that, right?

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
so I don't know who you are.
I've not taken LSD yet becauseI want to wait for the right
time with the right people,which will be me, yep, exactly.
Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
Okay, so send us some fan mail.
We'll read them and respond.
I wish maybe, like if, becausewe don't see who it is like
maybe, if you want, if you don'twant to be anonymous, like tell
us who you are and we'll callyou out by name.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
Yeah, but if you want to be the anonymous, that's
totally fine.
Give us the tea.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
We'll still respond as ourselves.
Okay, we'll see you guys on theother side.

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86 | It's JUST Emotions (A Guide to Emotional Sobriety)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}86 | It's JUST Emotions (A Guide to Emotional Sobriety)