88 | Why We Don't Drink (A New Perspective on Alcohol)

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Is alcohol is the new cigarette? Join us as we explore this provocative analogy through our personal journeys of sobriety. The difference between sober and not drinking. Leah shares an eye-opening article that has helped many reevaluate their drinking habits. She also recounts her own eight-year journey that began with pregnancy and a pursuit of better mental health and clarity. We dive into the often misunderstood societal perceptions of sobriety and discuss why choosing not to drink is frequently seen as an admission of a problem.

From blackout experiences to the pressures of socializing, we unpack the complexities of alcohol use disorder and how it varies across the spectrum as defined by the DSM-5. Our conversation reveals surprising insights about the physical and mental toll of drinking, along with the challenges of navigating alcohol-heavy environments. We also highlight the stark misconceptions about what constitutes a drinking problem, emphasizing that addiction doesn't always manifest in a life falling apart.

As we reflect on the emotional and relational aspects of sobriety, Leah opens up about her marriage's transformation post-sobriety. We discuss the stigmatization of choosing a sober lifestyle and the significance of making mindful choices. Finally, we extend an invitation to our listeners: reconsider your relationship with alcohol and discover the profound personal growth and authenticity that can follow.

Why I Gave Up Drinking: https://relevantmagazine.com/life5/why-i-gave-up-alcohol/

Alcohol Use Disorder: https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Okay, yeah Well, hello, hello, hello to our
listeners.
Welcome back to another episodeof See you on the Other Side,
leah, what rabbit hole are wegoing down today?

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Well, I came across a podcast, and in that podcast
she was talking about how shecame to the decision to stop
drinking.
And listening to this podcast,the story was very similar to

(00:39):
ours, and I think in thatepisode she also quoted an
article.
Read an article, and I foundthat article and I kind of want
to read it.
Okay, I think.
Before I read it, though, Ithink we should maybe preface

(01:00):
this episode by saying um, youknow, this is something that you
and I both are, um, we both seeeye to eye on when it comes to
alcohol consumption.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
And can I also add in there that we saw eye to eye on
that even before we started ourjourney with any psychedelic?
A hundred percent so.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I have been, I would.
So I had dinner with someone acouple of weeks ago and she was
like can I get a glass of winein front of you, is that okay?
I was like, oh, yeah, that'sfine.
And she was like oh, you just,you're not sober, you just don't
drink.
And I was like, fine.
And she was like oh, you just,you're not sober, you just don't
drink.
And I was like, exactly, and Inever heard anyone else say that

(01:53):
in a way that made like.
I was like, oh my God, sheunderstands, right.
Most of the time people thinkthat I had a drinking problem.
Okay, so that's the other thing.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Why is it that if you choose not to drink, people
automatically assume that thereason why you don't drink is
because you have a problem oryou're pregnant?
It's the one.
It's like the one and only drugwhere, if you don't do it,

(02:22):
people assume that there'ssomething wrong with you.
It's the weirdest, it's fuckingconundrum.
It's fucking wild and I thinkyou know.
Hopefully we're evolving out ofthat, but there are it's it's
still a thing.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
I was reading this article.
Imagine that that was talkingabout how, like, alcohol is
becoming the new nicotine, likethe big alcohol industry is
becoming the big nicotineindustry, where, like, we're
learning more and more about it.
But this episode is probablyit's going to be hard for me for
reasons that I explained in aprevious episode because I have

(03:00):
a hard time talking about this,because I don't like coming
across as judgmental and itfeels weird talking about it.
So I also think we shouldpreface this by saying this is
our own lived experience withalcohol.
It's a very taboo subject.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
And I think a lot of people are triggered by hearing
some of the things that we nowknow about alcohol.
Yeah, and there's a.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I find that interesting that, like that,
like if I am choosing not to doit, I'm going to could
potentially trigger somebodyelse and I have to explain why
I'm not doing it Right.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
That's a very weird thing to me.
So, um, before I read thearticle, which I know it looks
really long, but, um, it's notas long as it seems.
Are you going to be able to sitstill through this reading?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
of it If I'm upside down kicking my leg, mind your
business.
No, because it's interesting tome.
Okay, okay, I'll be okay.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
I think we should talk about where we stand with
it first.
Okay, because, as some of ourlisteners know, my husband is
sober three years now and ispart of an Alcoholics Anonymous
program, was very much dependenton alcohol and for me, I drank,

(04:39):
but I stopped drinking when Igot pregnant with my last child,
so she's seven now.
So, like seven and a half eightyears ago, I stopped and I
nursed her for two years, sodidn't drink for two years and
then decided just to never do itagain.

(04:59):
I didn't miss it.
There was absolutely nothingabout it that made me want to go
back to it.
I think what it did was it mademe really sit back and take a
look at why I drank and this isgoing to sound really fucked up
but a reason I drank was becauseI wanted to spend time with my

(05:20):
husband to drink.
Oh, shit.
Um, and then earlier thismorning, with you sitting across
from me, I was searching forthis article, and I was
searching for it in my text,because when I find an article I
really like, like I'll send itto myself in a text, so I don't
have like 500 tabs open.

(05:41):
And when I searched for why Idon't drink in my texts, a text
message thread from 2018 betweenme and my husband popped up,
and you only read one part of it, but I read multiple parts of
it, and we were fighting becauseif we went on a date night and
I asked him not to drink, likehe would be like ready to go

(06:04):
home as soon as dinner was over,like because there was no
alcohol involved.
Wow, and so that's what we werefighting about.
Like I was like you'll stay outtill two o'clock, three o'clock
in the morning.
Sometimes you won't even comehome On a date night.
No, that's what we were fightingabout.
Oh, okay, okay, I was likesaying like you have no problem

(06:26):
staying out all night when it'slike drinking, or with it if
it's with your friends.
But if you and I go to dinner,you want to be home and in bed
at 10 o'clock, like what's wrongwith me that you don't want to
spend time with me.
Why do you prefer to be outdrinking?
That's what that fight wasabout.
So I think whenever I and atthis point my daughter was two

(06:53):
when we were like having thatargument, I just started to
realize, like the less I drank,the more the less he wanted to
spend time with me.
So I just really started to seethings and I didn't like what I
saw.
Um, we would go out.
I would be that you knowtrooper who would go out, and
then eventually I stopped goingout with him because I didn't

(07:14):
like what I saw.
I didn't like the way he talkedto me in front of people.
I didn't like the way heinteracted with girls in front
of me, cause in my head I'm like, if he's doing this right in
front of me, imagine all thethings I missed when I was
drinking because I wasn't payingattention to this or because
when I drank, I blacked out.
Um, I was never fully presentin the moment.

(07:38):
Um, he used to always say, likeI liked you better when you
were drinking, you were way morefun.
And I was like well, I likedyou better when you were
drinking, you were way more fun.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
And I was like well, that's never going to happen
again because, well, fromexperience, I think you're an
incredibly wonderful time, sober.
Thank you you too.
Yeah, so this is definitely alike this.
It's very close to home for youthis topic.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, and I think maybe that's why it's to home
for you this topic, yeah, and Ithink maybe that's why it's so
hard for me to talk about,because I think I think a lot of
people would relate to this butmaybe haven't really given up
the alcohol because they arelike, but that's how we spend
time together.
So, yeah, the the less I drank,the less and less time I spent

(08:25):
with my husband and it reallyreally pushed us very far apart.
And he used to say like that'swhen we started having problems.
And I'm like he's not wrong, Ithink that's when I really
started to see the problems.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
And acknowledge the problem.
The problems were there.
The problems were there beforeyou got sober.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, they were always there.
Yeah, but this is when, like, Ijust feel like I was more clear
headed Um and again for me,like making the decision to quit
drinking was not a difficultone.
It didn't.
I didn't need to go into aprogram, I didn't need to go to
rehab, I didn't need to make aconscious decision every day to

(09:12):
wake up and not drink.
It was not that's how I know.
Like I wasn't as addicted as Ithought.
And also like I drank maybeonce a month.
We would go out, we'd get asitter, we'd go out, I'd go out
with him and his friends orwhatever.
Um, so it was just really easyfor me to just be like, yeah, I

(09:33):
don't want to ever again.
I understand that's not thecase for a lot of people, and
that was the case with him,which was a struggle bus,
because I'd be like why don'tyou try to go?
I can stop drinking whenever Iwant to.
Well then, do it.
I don't want to like that.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's a very common response, by the way.
I've heard a lot.
Here's the other thing too.
So there are people who, like,go to a, go to rehab, consider

(10:11):
themselves an alcoholic, yeahOkay.
And then there are people who,who I would consider that they
have a drinking problem, butthey're functioning, functioning
yeah, and they're very likelike, oh, this person, yeah,

(10:31):
well, they needed to go to rehab.
I can still work, I can stilldo this, my family's fine,
Whatever, whatever.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I don't have a problem.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
I don't have any problems.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
I keep talking, I'm looking for something, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
And and a lot of those people.
They're functioning, but theyvery much so have problems.
Or the reason why they saidthat response in the first place
is because someone isstruggling with their drinking
and their partying.
And the specific example isthat I'm talking about was a

(11:02):
child, a teen teen, and the daddecided to go to AA.
And the mom was like that loser, he's going to AA, he's, he's
going to rehab, he's doing this,he's doing that.
But then the daughter was likewell, you drink too much, too,
ooh.
And the mom was like no, Idon't.

(11:26):
I, you know, I only drink oncea month or twice a month, and
you know I can still work, Istill have this, I still have
that and I'm like what about the?

Speaker 1 (11:33):
I can handle my alcohol.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
They can't Right that and I'm like that's interesting
because you're saying you don'thave a problem.
In here, your daughter issaying that she struggles with
your relationship with alcoholas well.
Right, and you're not willingto see it because, like, you
think that alcoholism is thislike Living in the gutter Right,

(11:57):
can't function without it.
Right, drinking and driving,losing everything in your life,
and that's not.
It can be that Absolutely, butit's.
It's not just that.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
So the DSM five actually doesn't call it
alcoholism anymore, alcohol usedisorder.
It's alcohol use disorder andit runs on a spectrum.
As with everything else, Ithink, honestly, spectrums are
the best thing ever, because itmakes things a lot less black

(12:32):
and white and there are areaswhere you may be high in this
area, but low in this area, andso when you look at the entire
spectrum of symptoms, you'relike, oh, I do fall somewhere in
this, right?
So that's something that, like,not a lot of people understand.

(12:53):
I've sent this alcohol usedisorder like checklist to
several people before, because Iknow people who are like I only
drink on the weekends, so Idon't have a drinking problem.
I only drink on the weekends,so I don't have a drinking
problem.
Um one, this one's a tough one.
I know someone who startsdrinking at five o'clock every

(13:13):
day, but they don't think theyhave a drinking problem because
they do it at home, oh love.
And so it's like where did weget this idea that you only have
a problem with it if you'reliving in a gutter, can't hold
down a job and your family's nolonger intact, right?

(13:34):
Why is that?
The definition of someone whohas a drinking problem Right.
Has a drinking problem, right?
So this, if, if we're beingcompletely honest, it's like a

(13:55):
checklist and so there's likemild, moderate and severe, and
you're supposed to go throughthis checklist and answer these
questions.
Honestly, can I do it?
I wasn't planning on doing this.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
But can I do this?

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Because technically, if I went through this checklist
while I was drinking, I wouldhave had a mild, mild.
What is the word?
Severity of alcohol usedisorder?

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I would say like in college and young adult life I
had issues with alcohol becausefor me, my dad was an alcoholic.
But whenever I would drink, Ihad the mentality of like I
can't just have one.
If I'm going to drink, I'mgoing to get fucked up because

(14:37):
otherwise it's a waste of anight.
What's the point, right?

Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I drank in high school.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
I drank in college and then I drank a little bit
out of college and almost everytime I drank I blacked out,
which, if you do blackout,that's, that's, that's a, that's
a tall tale sign that, um, youhave CPTSD if you blackout
frequently and easily.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
I blackout almost every time I drink.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
So do I.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
It's.
I used to have a friend whothought I was lying until it
happened to her one time.
Yeah, she was like that happensto you every time and I'm like,
yeah, pretty much yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
And I also um threw up about every single time that
I drank.
I have Asian glow, so a lot ofAsian people are missing an
enzyme that digests alcoholproperly.
So I genuinely felt like I wasallergic to it.
But I would do it because Ididn't.

(15:34):
Alcohol never resonated with me.
But this is where the peoplepleasing in me comes.
I struggle with peer pressurevery, very badly and I also want
to be fun and have fun, and sothere was that pressure to drink
and then be a lot of fun andmake people laugh, and so there

(15:58):
was that.
Now I know I make, I can makepeople laugh and be sober, but
yeah, that's to.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I kind of want to put a pin in that Asian glow thing.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Because there is a very common misconception that
addicts and addiction is genetic.
Oh, okay, and it's not Okay,but we can put a pin in that,
okay, can you?
Can you remember that?
Yep, I'll remember.
All right, thanks Okay, but wecan put a pin in that.
Okay, can you?
Can you remember that?
Yep, I'll remember.
All right, thanks Okay.
So these questions that theywould ask you to determine
whether you have alcohol usedisorder, and would you kind of

(16:35):
go from there, Like, if you havea mild alcohol use disorder,
like you're probably going to beless likely to change because
you're like, oh, it's not thatbad, you know, but it's still.
I think this, really seeingthis, made, if anything, me be
more intentional.
Like why am I drinking?

(16:56):
What am I doing this for?
Do I like the taste of it?
99% of the time, absolutely not.
So why am I going to drink it?
Um, am I doing this?
As because I want to feel morecomfortable around this group of
people, because I have socialanxiety.
Well, why am I around thisgroup of people then?
So it just made me moreintentional with, like, when and

(17:18):
how and why I drink.
So also wanted to preface all ofthis by saying, when I say I
don't drink, it does not meanthat you won't see me having
like a glass of wine.
Honestly, though, in the pastcouple of years, even that has
been like I don't really see thepoint.
Yeah, so I just.

(17:38):
I think I'm just moreintentional with it.
There used to be a time acouple of years ago, where if I
would see a drink on a menu andit was like super fruity and
looked good, I would ask if theycould make it as a mocktail, or
I would get it as is and justsip on it because I liked the
taste of it.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
I like, like I love a Bloody Mary.
I like a mule.
Now I do mocktails becausesometimes it is nice to drink
something Like if you're goingout with your friends right To
drink something other than water, or like a soda, right Like,
have something that's just likea little fancy glass.
But that's where.
That's where, like, I feel likeit's, it's, it's changing

(18:16):
because mocktails are becoming athing.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, there's a mocktail bar a more normalized
thing.
And so I'm like boom, there yougo.
Yeah, yeah, easy, easy peasy.
You look like you're one of therest, which?

Speaker 2 (18:28):
also.
That's a whole nother.
Thing.
I hate that.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Right, I was just going to say, like I hate
feeling like I have to look likeI'm drinking, so people leave
me the fuck alone.
So it's not a thing, right?
So, and we'll get into that ina little bit too, because I

(18:50):
think it makes other people moreuncomfortable than it makes me,
right, oh for sure.
So all right.
So we'll go through thesequestions and I know we're going
to say no to all of these now.
But, like, think about old me,old you, old me and any
listeners who may want to justtake a step back and take a look
at your relationship withalcohol and what it means to you
.
In the past year, have you hadtimes when you ended up drinking
more or longer than youintended?

(19:11):
Yep, we're answering this likeOld us 10 years ago, Okay, yes,
more than once wanted to cutdown or stop drinking or tried
to, but couldn't.
Yep, I would say Shit.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
I would say Again, for me it was the peer pressure.
Yeah, I didn't like I wouldhave if, if all of my friends
would have been like, you know,fuck going out, let's stay in
and watch a movie, or whatever,I would have been so down.
Or my ex-husband if he wouldhave been down, I would have
been like, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
I'd rather do that Right.
I also used to bartend, so likeI feel like alcohol was very
much a big part of my life andmy friend circle too, so if I
wanted to hang out with myfriends yeah we were drinking.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
I used to bartend too , but it was for a hot five
minutes because it was like this.
It was in my college town, butit wasn't like where the college
kids went.
It was where all the old peoplewent, and all of the old men
would pressure me to get drunk.
So every time I worked I'd befucking hammered and then

(20:17):
someone would have to come pickme up and I'm like I can't,
fucking do this.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
See, I worked as a shot girl for a while and we had
like fake shots on the backline.
So we would walk around sellingshots and if somebody was like
I'll, I'll buy one, if I can buyyou one, I would have like a
row of fake shots.
Genius learned that the hardway, though, because I have
passed out in many dj booths.
Um, they actually they put methere because I used to work at

(20:43):
the bars.
So like everybody knew me,which like thank fucking god,
because could you imagine justbeing like a random stray girl,
like passing out and nobodyknowing where your friends were,
like my friends knew.
When they couldn't find me,like oh, we'll just go up to the
DJ booth I bet that's wherethey put her, cause I knew
everybody.
So fucked up Could have turnedout so much worse.

(21:03):
That's so dangerous, by the way, okay, um, so yeah, more than
once wanted to cut down or stopdrinking or tried to, but
couldn't number three spend alot of time drinking, being sick
from drinking or getting overother after effects hungover
also, I would have the worstanxiety and or panic attacks

(21:23):
after drinking.
It's a.
I learned this.
It is a stimulant and also adepressant, and how it can be
both is while you are drinkingit.
It is a stimulant it likebrings you up, you think it is,
but then, as your body isremoving it from your system, it
becomes a depressant and youstart going through withdrawals.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
We've talked about this a lot.
But when you are sober andsomeone is drunk and they feel
like the hottest person on theplanet, they feel so good, they
feel sexy.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
They're like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm big and bad and
I'm this and that, and thenyou're the sober one and you're
like, oh, but if you could onlysee from my eyes that was me,
and we've talked about thisbefore too how like, oh my God,
I used to be such the fun girlbut, like, after saying that so

(22:19):
many times because I used tothink I was like the fun girl,
drunk, after saying it so manytimes and taking a step back,
I'm like hold on, my friendswould like lose me.
Like for my 21st birthday itwas a joke they put like a
balloon a helium balloon on mywrist and tied it around my
wrist so they couldn't lose me.
Um, I would pass out all thetime, like maybe I thought I was

(22:43):
fun, but taking care of me wasprobably not that fun.
Watching that happen wasprobably embarrassing.
Like, if I could go back andlook at myself like I was.
Like I thought I was fun, right, and maybe I was for a time, a
little bit, until it went toofar.
So, yeah, I I've said thatbefore Like these people on

(23:07):
Summer House, the way that theydrink and get up the next day
and drink again.
Like how are they not hungover?
Number one, number two how arethey not looking at these
episodes, watching themselvesthe way that they behave, and
like taking a step back.
One of them did Right.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
What's crazy is like they're in their 30s and 40s.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
That's why how were you not hung over for a week
straight?
I don't understand that.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
I, for me it was.
It was easy to give it upbecause my body felt the effects
.
So it was.
I blacked out, I threw up.
I would throw up violently thenext day.
I would throw up during it.
I was not.
I was never a like puke andrally.
I was a I'm throwing up.

(23:56):
Right, I'm going to puke allnight long until four o'clock in
the morning, till I havenothing left in my stomach, and
then the next morning I'm goingto wake up and I'm going to like
, have nothing in me, feel awful, have panic attacks, have
anxiety.
So for me, like I got aftercollege, I got sick of it very
quickly and then it got to apoint where I'm like, well, I'm

(24:18):
only going to drink like thatonce or twice a year, but when I
do that, I'm going to go hardin the balls in the wall and I'm
going to fucking.
I said that wrong.
Balls to the wall.
I'm sorry I had to stop becausethat was wrong okay you got
what I was saying we need towork on your, your shit, talk

(24:42):
whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
I am not good at that , you are terrible.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
I'm so bad at it you are.
Anyways, yeah, I would drinkonce or twice a year and I would
always regret it.
And then it got to the pointwhere now I may have a drink.
There's an Italian restauranthere in Louisville and they have
a drink called the Rossini,which is my fiance's last name.
I'll drink it.
I'll usually have like two orthree drinks.

(25:06):
It's a little too sugary for methese days and then I'm like
that's good, but like I alwayshave to get it whenever I go
there.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
But now it's, it's.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
It's to the point where now, if I even finish a
drink once in a blue moon,you're like, oh wow, you're
really Can't believe I finishedthat.
Right, but that's literallyabout hard in the paint.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
I said that right though, Didn't I?
I want to put that same pin.
That I did earlier is part ofthis conversation the way that
you wake up hungover and the waythat some people don't.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
And okay, so there there are a lot of people who
don't do that.
Yeah, so they can keep going.
Yeah, right, I like that.
I got sick because my body waslike bitch, no, bitch, fuck, no,
right, stop.
So, people who they don't havethose physical symptoms.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
That is genetic, that the way that your body
processes alcohol is genetic,yeah, I feel more bad for those
people, the ones who don't havelike the hangovers.
Yeah, because they keep, theydon't really have a reason to
not to stop a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
They keep going and going, they, they, they don't,
they don't get sick.
They can puke and rally.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
The way they argue it , though, is like Jackson
Brittany on um Vanderpump rulesthe Valley.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Oh sorry, the Valley where I hate that.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
I'm like referencing Bravo now, but like I love it.
I feel like some of ourlisteners will get it the way
that Jax is like I drank a wholebottle of tequila and look at
her, she's like puking.
She can't even handle herliquor.
I can handle my liquor andwe've said this before but like
that is not a flex.
Good for you that your geneticsmake it to where you are not
puking after a bottle of tequila.

(26:53):
That's great.
That can be genetic.
It's like when you were talkingabout the Asian glow that can
be genetic.
So like the way our bodyprocesses alcohol and the way
that we react to alcohol is whatis genetic well.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Alcohol got introduced to us much, much
later, so our bodies weren'tbuilt to be able to handle
alcohol are you talking about,like your um ancestors?
Yeah, your ancestors yourculture yeah, yeah, it didn't.
It didn't get introduced to us.
So it's like I think, genuinelylike our bodies weren't not

(27:31):
saying that anyone's bodies arebuilt.
No one is built for it right,but do you know what I'm?
Do you know what I'm trying tosay?

Speaker 1 (27:37):
yeah, yeah, yeah or when you have built up such a
tolerance that you're like I canhandle my liquor and you can't.
It's like no good for you.
That means you drink a lot.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Right.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Right, good for you, right, that's not that's not a
flex.
Um, all right.
So yeah, I've spent a lot oftime drinking, being sick.
Uh, wanted to drink so badlyyou couldn't think of anything
else.
That was never me.
Never me either.
Never me.
That was a hundred percent.
My husband, like.
The reason he wanted to leavethese date nights is because all
he could think about wasleaving and going and getting

(28:08):
drunk.
He like lived for a Friday sohe could go out and drink, like
hung over for days, like was ashit human the next day, which

(28:29):
was another thing that used toreally bother me, because sunday
it's like our day off.
I used to work saturday, solike sunday is like our one day,
that like we have family time.
And he was like a lump on thecouch and just that would be
couldn't do anything verytriggering.
It was I, it was I'm like, dobetter, right, like your kids
want to spend time with you.
I want to spend time with you,right, and you're useless right

(28:52):
now.
Right, yeah, because youpartied Friday, partied Saturday
and now you're going to be hungover all day today and rinse
and repeat yeah, so yeah, wantedto drink so badly you couldn't
think of anything else.
That was him.
Um, found that drinking orbeing sick from drinking often
interfered with taking care ofyour home or family, oh shit or

(29:16):
cause job troubles or schoolproblems.
See, I never really had thatthis is where it affected, but
it never affected his jobbecause he could do his job in
his sleep.
So lucky him.
Um.
So, yeah, it was really hardfor him to like come to terms
with the fact that he had adrinking problem, because he is

(29:38):
a functioning member of society,has a great job, never been
fired for drinking on the job.
He never drank during the week.
He he called himself a weekendwarrior.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
That's warrior.
That's the other thing thatpeople are like.
Well, I don't drink every day.
That almost made it harder toconvince him, because people
have this again, this mindset ofwhat an alcoholic is, and it's
someone who drinks and getsdrunk every single day.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, and that's what his dad was.
His dad was a non-functioningalcoholic who didn't keep a job,
whose family did break apart,who had nothing left but alcohol
and who drank every morningwhen he woke up and till the day
he died.
So that was what he thought analcoholic was.
He was like I'll never be thatand I'm like, dude, you were

(30:25):
like one divorce away from that.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
But it's interesting too where you see people who had
an addict parent and they'relike I'm never going to be that
and they are not exactly that,but they are a version of that
and they don't fucking realizeit.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
But they are a version of that and they don't
fucking realize it.
Or I had a conversation withsomeone recently whose husband
did other stuff.
I'll never be an alcoholic likemy dad, so now he's doing other
drugs.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
That was my ex-husband.
His grandfather was analcoholic, and so his dad became
a complete pothead.
And then because his dad was astoner and a pothead.
He was like I'm never going todo pot, but I'm going to drink.
So I was like it went fromgrandfather being an alcoholic

(31:20):
and the son rebelling andbecoming a stoner to then his
son rebelling and becoming analcoholic.
You guys are literallyrepeating the addiction pattern.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
That's why they would be like.
That's why addiction runs in myfamily.
It's genetic and I'm like butit's not.
You guys are just following intheir footsteps because no one
taught you how to cope with yourfeelings.
You were picking up bad habitsand you're not being taught

(31:53):
healthy coping skills.
That oh my God, why do we keepdoing that?
I don't know.
We're in sync today in so manyways.
You guys, we both went throughour luteal phases at the same
time and we started at the sametime we're blood sisters.

(32:15):
We're blood sisters now.
Basically, that's what.
Yep, that's what we are.
We spend a little too much timetogether here's the.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
The other thing, too, I want to add to that yeah,
somebody who stops drinkingbecause they use drinking as a
way to cope and goes right to anSSRI.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
That's what I was saying in that one episode where
I was like afraid to touch it.
Yeah, because again you'rerepeating this pattern of not
dealing with your feelings,right?
So what you're teaching yourchildren and it's interesting
because I'm just going to saythis, I'm just going to say it
Even though my husband's fatherwas full blown alcoholic, like

(32:58):
typical what you would think analcoholic would be who, like,
just didn't live a good life andended up dying alone, that's
what he used to like.
I'll never be that.
I'll never be that.
His mother is on like a verylarge amount of pharmaceuticals

(33:24):
and has been as long as I'veknown her and I've been in this
family for 18 years, so a longtime Also, never, never, taught
my husband how to have hardconversations, how to be held
accountable, how to deal withyour shit, how to handle stress,

(33:46):
how to cope with feelings.
These are all things that myhusband didn't learn until he
got sober and we worked on thosethings.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
So I hope we get into that topic more one day.
One day we will One day.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
One day, we will One day.
So it's funny because she wasvery judgmental of his father
being an alcoholic.
But yet you were doing the samething with different substances
.
You are running.
I remember having reallydifficult conversations with
this person and her leaving theroom to go take a pill because

(34:26):
it was too hard of aconversation to have and I
called her out on it.
I was like imagine that can'thave a conversation sober.
So anyway, we'll get into thatone these days, all right.
So, um, found that drinkingokay, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah interfered with taking careof your home or family and

(34:48):
unfortunately, I feel likethat's maybe people's rock
bottoms is when it startsaffecting their families or jobs
.
So, like, why are we not takinga look at our relationship with
alcohol before that happens?
It didn't affect us.
So I thought until I got soberI don't even like saying sober

(35:10):
because I don't think I don'tconsider myself sober until I
stopped drinking is when itstarted affecting us.
Um, okay, how many do we have?
We have three still.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Um, next question, or next one continue to drink even
though it was causing troublewith your family or friends.
That was not me, that was myhusband, because I would beg him
, like and we would get into,like, I would watch him get into
fights with friends becausethey would be like, dude, you're
taking things too far.
Shut up, you know.
And I'm like, oh my God, stoptalking.

(35:42):
Like.
People are getting reallyuncomfortable right now.
Um, given up.
Here's the next question in thepast year, have you given up or
cut back on activities youfound important, interesting or
pleasurable so you could drink?
That was my husband, not me,Okay.
Have you in the past year, morethan once gotten into

(36:05):
situations, while or afterdrinking that increased your
chances of getting hurt, such asdriving, swimming, using
machinery, walking in adangerous area or unsafe sexual
behavior?
Next question have youcontinued to drink even though
it was making you feel depressedor anxious, or adding to
another health problem, or afterhaving an alcohol related
memory blackout?

(36:25):
Wow, this one is wild.
My husband ran into a friend atthe gym a couple of weeks ago
who we've known.
He was, like, once upon a timelived with my husband.
I know this guy.
He drinks so much that he hasdeveloped gout.
Oh yeah, I know what gout is,which is what they call the

(36:48):
King's foot, and it's like whenyou drink alcohol your feet
swell up so bad that you cannotphysically walk because they
hurt so bad.
Came up to my husband at the gymand was like you know, I think
I might like you know.
My wife was looking at me thegym and was like you know, I
think I might like you know, mywife was looking at me the other
day and said have you everthought that maybe you have a
problem with alcohol because youhave this health issue and you

(37:12):
still continue to drink it?
And he was like and it reallygot me thinking, oh Lord, Like
we.
I laughed Cause I'm like you'vebeen talking about having gout
for like 10 years and instead ofremoving the thing that's
causing it because that's what'sblowing my mind, Like you know
for a fact the alcohol iscausing it.

(37:34):
And instead of removing thealcohol, you are going to take
medication to help soothe thegout.
That blows my mind.
And you're still drinking.
And you're just now getting tothe point where someone had to
say it to you and you'requestioning it.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
But to that I say how crazy is it that these
substances are so normalized?
And it's so normalized to bethat disconnected from yourself.
That's a whole other topic.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
That you didn't you like cause.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
For me, one plus one equals two.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right and the fact that you're like, you're just
now putting this together and ittook your wife saying it to you
for you to be like.
You know.
She said I might have a problemwith alcohol and I'm, you know,
maybe I do.
Yeah, but I also love that Likenow.
My husband is this like soberguy in this friend group, so
when people start to likequestion it, they always go to

(38:37):
him.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Well, in that friend group and if it's the friend
group that I'm thinking, a lotof those men have problems with
drinking.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
It's the friend group that I'm thinking a lot of
those men have problems withdrinking A hundred percent.
That's why a lot of them have.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
But they, they shut him out.
Shut him out because he's theone with the problem.
Yeah, where I'm sad, it's verysad, where I'm like he's the one
who's healing from the problem.
And you guys have a problem andyou guys are completely

(39:08):
avoiding it and gaslightingsomebody else like you don't
have that same problem.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
I never in a million years would have said this about
my husband several years ago,but I'm going to say it now.
I really think people couldlearn a lot from him.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
And I'm proud of him, I never would have said that
I'm proud of him that he hasdone this and he's lost so many
friendships because people arelike he's sober.
What do we need?
Like, what are we?

Speaker 1 (39:37):
going to do.
We can't invite him because hedoesn't drink anymore.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
That's.
That's fucking sad, I know, andthat I know that shows how much
those friendships lacked trueconnection and depth and this is
a very, very, very sensitivesubject for me.
I get that, but you know what?

Speaker 1 (40:01):
I get very angry about it.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, I don't know any of these fuckers.
No offense, but like shame onthem.
Yeah, that's how I get veryangry about it.
Yeah, I don't know any of thesefuckers.
No offense, but like shame onthem.
Yeah, that's how I shame on you.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Guys are missing out because he's a better person now
than he.
I can't even, but I thinkthat's Imagine the person that
he is now.
I couldn't have imagined ityears ago and his sponsor's wife
told me in the very beginningof him getting sober you'll
start to fall in love with themagain and that started happening
.
I was like, oh my God, this issomeone like.

(40:31):
This person's great, you knowlike doesn't mean we don't have
our fucking moments Like we're amarried couple life happens,
but I am.
I think it's a beautiful thingto get to witness the person I
am with today.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, but what a sad thing that they don't get to
witness that, like truly, who heis, like he's becoming more
authentically himself, and theydon't even get to see it and
they're not willing to.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
I was going to put a pin in this, but maybe I should
just say it now, because that isone of the things that happens
when you stop drinking is likepeople start to feel
uncomfortable around you, and Ithink a lot of it is like either
projection or well, if theyhave a problem, then I have to
admit that I have a problem aswell, and one of his closest

(41:20):
friends I did call out last year.
I said you know, I think it's,I think it's really, I think
it's bullshit that you consideryourself a best friend and he's
been sober at this point for twoyears now and not once have you
reached out to him and askedhim about his sobriety.
You don't ask him to hang outanymore.
You know all these like I'mlike he made a Facebook post and

(41:42):
gets hundreds of commentscongratulating him on his
sobriety and not a word from you.
It's almost like it's like thisyou can't say sober in front of
Jason.
It's really fucked up.
And he said, well, selfishly, Ifeel like I lost my drinking
friend.
Wow, and I was like that'sexactly my point.

(42:02):
That's really fucked up.
That like.
I just feel like if I had afriend who had a drinking
problem and or maybe I don'tknow, they had a drinking
problem, but I hear they'regetting sober.
I would be like I'm so proud ofyou.
That's incredibly hard work.
How are you doing, do you?
Do you want to go get dinner orgrab lunch?

(42:24):
But like that's the thing, likethis group doesn't do that.
Everything they do revolvesaround alcohol, and it makes me
incredibly sad because he lostan entire friend group.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
I feel bad for their partners and their children.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Anyways yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
That's where I'm like it comes across as judgmental,
because I'm like it's sad.
Really there's a lot of angerhere.
I have a lot of anger.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I, I totally towards his friends.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, and I, I totally get that Like I like,
why can't you ask You've knownthis person since middle school
and you can't ask him to go todinner or lunch or get your kids
together, like and just hangout without alcohol, like, like
it?
Just it's wild to me.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
I have lunch with my friends all the time.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
That's very sad and this is a little off topic, but
there is this assumption thatwhen we are together, we are
fucked up.
Yeah, because we share ourjourneys using psychedelics.
Yeah, people think of the waywe use these substances.

(43:33):
They think of it like it's likealcohol.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
It's like a replacement for alcohol.
Well, they're not drinkingbecause they're doing this Right
, and that's not it.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Right.
So oftentimes we have gottencomments like we had one video
on TikTok that went viral and itwas like we're psycho nuts, we
do this and you know we wouldsay something Woo, woo, that we
do and I can't tell.
Like there were so manycomments.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Hundreds.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Hundreds of comments where people are like, oh,
they're tripping right now.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
You can tell they're fucked up.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
You can tell they're fucked up, like oh, they're
tripping right now, you can tellthey're fucked up.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
You can tell they're fucked up, and some of them were
nice because it was just likedude.
I want to be tripping with youguys right now, Right.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
We get this comment all the time.
Yeah, spoiler alert.
Most of the time we arecompletely stone cold, fucking
sober.
I've said that.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
We are just weird yeah, I'm like first off, if we
were on mushrooms we wouldn'thave been recording ourselves
doing a fucking real we wouldn'thave been on our phone.
We wouldn't have been on ourphones yeah here's the other
thing.
And when we are on mushrooms,that is what happens like
there's no content when we're onmushrooms.
That is what happens.
Like there's no content whenwe're on mushrooms, cause like

(44:47):
we're like too busy havingconversations with each other,
being in the present moment,like nobody has, nobody's
pulling out their phones, yeah,yeah, and again, it's not like
we used to drink and then we didthis.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
No they're very, very different.
I feel like mushrooms is a waytruly for me to connect with
myself or the people that I'maround.
Hence why dose set setting isso important?

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, I don't like to do mushrooms now with people
who are drinking.
Yeah, I don't.
It's not the vibe for me.
Yeah, so that's anothermisconception.
Is that like I'll use mushroomsas a social lubricant when
everybody else is drinking andit's like, no, I'll actually
just remove myself from thesituation.
It took me a while to get there, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, but a lot of times we can go out and we are,
we're sober you guys.
So there's breaking thatmisconception.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
But also if you see us dancing at play like mind
your business.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, Not saying that we're sober, I'm just saying
that's never happened.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
I'm just saying, like it's a bucket list, yeah, if
you're out in.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Louisville, and her eyes are looking a little crazy.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
No, I'm just kidding.
But also I'll be honest withyou too.
Like, if you see us out likeI'll be like actually we're
sober right now.
Honest with you too, like ifyou see us out like I'll be like
actually we're sober right now,and if I have, if I'm not, I'll
tell you, yeah, um, okay.
All right, sorry, we got alittle off topic, but like, this
is kind of okay, um, okay.
So that one was the continue todrink, even though it was making
you feel depressed or anxiousor adding to another health

(46:19):
problem.
That was the gout thing.
Okay, we have two more.
Next, one had too much to drink.
More than once.
You had to drink much more thanwhat?
Oh my God, why am I having ahard time reading?
Okay, in the past year, haveyou had to drink much more than
you once did to get the effectyou want?
Oh shit, or found that yourusual number of drinks had much

(46:44):
less effect than before?
In other words, do you have atolerance?
Yeah, can you drink a bottle oftequila and handle it?
If you can, that's not normal.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
I never had a tolerance.
I actually always got made funof because of how little
tolerance I had.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Lightweight, easy date, cheap date, what do they
call it?
Yeah, not easy date.
I was a cheap date.
Yeah, like one glass of wineand I'm tipsy.
Same, yeah, same.
And then the last one have youin the past year, found that
when the effects of alcohol werewearing off, you had withdrawal
symptoms such as troublesleeping, shakiness,
restlessness, nausea, sweating,a racing heart, dysphoria, mal,

(47:27):
malice, feeling low or a seizure, or sense things that were not
there, which is like tremors,like you can hallucinate and
have like very crazy, likehallucinations, and think people
are after you.
I had someone one time reachout because they had a boyfriend
who was detoxing for three days, hadn't had a drink in three
days and was seeing shit.
And still, when I brought upthe word alcoholic, they were

(47:49):
like, well, he's not analcoholic, though I'm like you
told me he was in rehab twicebefore and it didn't work, and
he's gone to aa and it doesn'twork, and now he's having
tremors and you don't considerthat an alcoholic.
It's so funny it's not funnybut it's.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
It's really, really interesting how that word is
such a triggering word forpeople that's what I mean.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
that's like people who drink that word is like.
It's such a trigger we wouldget into screaming matches
because my husband would be likeare you calling me an alcoholic
?
And I'd be like no.
But I really think you shouldmaybe take a look at the way you
have a relationship withalcohol, Because you can't just
say that word.
You can't, you absolutelycannot.

(48:39):
It's so fucking triggering,it's deep.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
It runs deep yeah In our conditioning.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah.
And then he does mushrooms onceand goes to an AA meeting and
comes home and is like, wow, Ihave a problem drinking.
I'm like, finally, you said it.
Yeah, yeah, that was a reliefTook some years.
Took several fucking years yeah.
God bless you, you okay so thatliterally is like an online

(49:07):
thing anybody can go to.
If you answered yes to two orthree, you have mild alcohol use
disorder, which I think was us.
I had three, yeah, um, if youanswered four to five, you had a
moderate alcohol use disorder,and if you were six or more, you
have a very severe version ofalcohol use disorder.
And if you were six or more,you have a very severe version

(49:27):
of alcohol use disorder and youshould probably reevaluate your
relationship with alcohol, whichhonestly everybody should
anyway.
So there was a another podcastwith um.
Who's that famous guy whoplayed Spider-Man, tom Holland?
Yes, did you listen to thatinterview with him?

(49:47):
No, when he talked about how hegot sober.
He said he started doing dryJanuary and then just kind of
kept going from there and thenhe would get social anxiety,
having to like go to thesedinners and like want to drink
but then realize like wait aminute, I want to drink because
I'm socially anxious, because Idon't want to be having this

(50:10):
dinner, I don't want to be goingto this function, I don't want
to be doing this.
So he said it really made himtake a step back and like
evaluate why he drank in socialsituations and whether or not he
was okay with that.
So then he was just like sothen I just started saying no to
these things that I didn't wantto go to anymore.

(50:32):
I respect that so hard, same.
So, another misconception, andI want to say this before I read
this article and I'll give youlike final thoughts to whatever
you want to say, I feel like I'msorry, I've talked a lot.
No, that's okay.
It's big, it's a big topic forme.
Um, another misconception, andsomeone a couple of people, have

(50:54):
actually said this to merecently like um, oh, that
person always leaves the partyearly because they are, like,
sober, and if they are aroundpeople drinking, they want to
drink too.
So they always leave early.
And I think that is a very bigmisconception.

(51:15):
And while that might be true forsome addicts, it is not true
for all, because I can relate tothat, because I'm like, I don't
consider myself an alcoholic, Idon't think I had a drinking
problem in the way that somepeople did, but I have a hard
time being around people whodrink when I'm sober, and it has

(51:38):
nothing to do with me itchingfor a drink.
Itching for a drink, right, it'sbecause I have a hard time
connecting with people whenthey're not sober and I am.
There is this level of I don'teven know how to explain this

(51:58):
without sounding wooey, but likethere is this energetic level
and it feels like this is whereit sounds judgy, and I hope
people understand that this islike on an energetic level.
I feel here, and before they'redrinking it feels here and then
when they start to drink andthe more they drink, it starts

(52:20):
to lower the vibration they areslurring their words starts to
lower the vibration.
They are slurring their words.
I'm having to repeat multiplethings because they don't
understand what I'm saying.
They're on another level that Idon't want to be on.
So I remove myself from thesituation, not because I'm
wanting to drink and becauseit's hard for me to be around

(52:42):
people drinking, but because Ijust am not vibing anymore.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I think people lose a lot ofawareness with themselves and
with other people Like I thinkabout when I drank.
I think about the like guysthat I talked to.
If I were sober I wouldn't haveeven beer goggles, yeah,
entertain them or give them thetime of day.
Goggles, yeah, entertain themor give them the time of day.

(53:09):
Um, I think about so manythings that I did when I was
drinking it clouds your judgmentand your intuition?
Yes, how unaware I was of likedanger, the things that were
around me, men, um, I'll, evenI'll.
I wasn't planning on saying it,but I'll just say it.
After a night of drinking Ithrew up and got really, really

(53:33):
sick and I was with a group ofpeople and somebody said that
they were going to take me homebecause they were my friend, who
happened to be a guy.
And they never took me home,they took me back to their house
.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
That type of shit, I think, happens way more often
than we want to admit.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
And the next day I felt awful because I didn't want
that person to take me home andthat person did things to me
that I didn't want them to do,and so then the next day I was
like that was my fault.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
I was drunk.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
I was drunk.
I shouldn't have gotten sodrunk.
That's why this happened.
When now I'm like no, that wasrape and like no matter how
drunk you are, it's not okay,but like I made the choice then
to really think about myrelationship with with alcohol.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
I'm going to say this and it sucks, but like I think
that happens to a lot of it'shappened to me.
I think it's incrediblydangerous that it's normal to
put ourselves in that situationand for us to be blamed because
we drank too much.
But it's like.
No, this is like literally whathappens.

(55:02):
Like you put yourself insituations that you wouldn't put
yourself in sober 100% and I'mnot at fault for what happens
and I hate to even say I'm notat fault for how like I was at
fault for how much I drank, butwhat I didn't know was that it

(55:24):
greatly affected my perceptionand my reality and it affected
my judgment and my um intuitionand I don't want to do anything
that is going to dim thosethings about me.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah, and you know I am somebody who doesn't drink
and I take the energy that Igive to others very seriously
now and I think about, when Idid drink, how I would just give
my energy to people who weren'tdeserving of it, your energy

(56:07):
budget.
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Yeah, by the way, I'm sorry, I'm sorry too, and I'm
sorry to listeners that that'shappened too, because I think
it's like the numbers and thestatistics of that happening are
like way too high and it'sunfair.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
So and I don't think that they are accurate, because
I think there's people like meand you who never considered it
what it was Right and justgaslit ourselves that it was our
fault.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
I am a very big flirt when I drink.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
So am I.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
I used to always say that like I would become like
the makeout queen when I wasdrunk, because I would make out
with people on the dance floorand have no idea no idea and it
just blows my mind Like I wouldget to a point where I'm like I

(57:01):
can't be out without my husbandbecause I might accidentally go
home with someone Cause I blackout and you know if, if he's
there with me, at least I knowhe's taking me home.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Yeah, For me.
I think that a lot of my daddyissues came out when I drank oh,
oh, oh shit ha, ha, yay me oh,so one I would do things to make
my friends laugh yeah, and Iwould literally bring up my dad,

(57:29):
oh God, so they would like becringing but also be like just
dying laughing.
It was like I use that as likeyour protective shield.
Yeah, oh my God.
And then also like the biggestdick at the bar who was like the

(57:50):
nothing to do with you, yeah.
Who wanted nothing to do with meor who I knew was going to be
mean to me.
That's who I liked.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Damn.
I think that probably happensto a lot of people.
Like, when you're drinking,your issues come out.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Yeah, yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Yeah, I would probably.
I would definitely agree withthat.
The pin that we put in aboutthe genetics, like we didn't get
to like completely finish that.
But I just implore people tolook up the difference between
genetics and epigenetics theyalso.
I'm going to talk about Dr CarlHart for a second.

(58:33):
He's the author of um drug usefor grownups.
Um, or maybe it's drugs forgrownups.
Don't remember the full name,but it's in our Amazon link.
Yes, he is a researcher.
Um has been working for I thinkhe worked for Stanford for a
very long time, has done allthese trials with drugs and one

(58:55):
of them was this rat experimentwith cocaine, because they talk
about how highly addictivecocaine is.
So he put these rats in a cageand would see how quickly they
became addicted to it.
And they did like almostimmediately.
Like would go to the cocainebefore they went to the water or
the food or whatever it wasthat they would put in there to

(59:17):
like, give them to choose from.
And then he decided to do thisexperiment where he puts the
rats in cages with each otherinstead of singling them out and
putting them in cages bythemselves.
So he put them in cages withother rats.
He mimicked their naturalhabitat, their natural
environment, put things in therelike you know, plants, and they

(59:40):
were in there with their littlefamilies, their little rat
families.
They never touched the cocaine.
So he argues and I wouldprobably say I am of this belief
too that it is not genetic butit is environmental.
Up in and in the environmentthat you choose to be in as an

(01:00:14):
adult is going to be whatprobably pushes you to reach for
a substance.
So if you're in a healthyenvironment, you are less likely
to reach for that substance Wow, no matter how addictive it is.
So I would argue that, likeit's environment over genetics I
wouldn't even argue that it isit's environmental over genetics

(01:00:34):
.
And then epigenetics is alittle bit different, because
that's what we were talkingabout earlier, Like Asian glow.
That's a thing.
That's a real thing.
You're going to be less likelyto drink because of the way that
it affects your body, so likebecause of your genetic makeup.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, I get red and flush.
My skin gets super inflamed.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Or if you have this, the epigenetics, where you can
handle your liquor and you don'tget a hangover, you're probably
more than likely going todevelop a dependency on this
substance.
So it's just go down thatrabbit hole.
Okay, anything else you want toadd?
No, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
I want to listen to this article, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
So this particular episode, the podcast I was
listening to, said that this iswhat changed her complete, total
outlook on why she drank, and Iwas in tears when she was
reading it.
And I should also preface thisby saying like there is the word
, there is the mention of likeGod in this article, but like, I

(01:01:41):
think where I am, I can lookpast that word and take it and
understand it for what I believeGod is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah, I mean I believe in God, but I think God
is the universe.
I mean I I believe in God, butI think God is the universe.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Same so and I used to like get really triggered when
I heard the word God in anarticle and be like, oh, this is
, this is Christian propaganda.
Now I it doesn't trigger me asmuch because I'm like I'm going
to replace that God with my God,my universe, my spirits,

(01:02:15):
whatever.
All right, so take the god outof these words, all right, you
ready?
Yeah, story time.
Let me get my talking voice.
We'll close with it's your sexvoice.
I also want to link this articlefor anybody who, like, wants to
read it and maybe like send itto somebody oh, great idea okay,
the first I drank alcohol.
I was about 14 years old.
I lied to my parents and wentto a party at a friend's house

(01:02:36):
where we drank cheap red wineand those sickly sweet wine
coolers with all of the coolkids.
I didn't like it much, but Ikept at it.
After all, it was worth theeffort.
Look at how I was fitting in.
I was already smoking a pack aday.
What was a bit of booze?
And a year later I had moreregrets than any 15 year old
should have at 17.

(01:02:57):
I decided to follow God for myown self.
I quit drinking as part of thedeal and didn't touch the stuff
for 10 years.
Am I missing a page?
I'm missing a page.
Shit Hold that.
Thought we're going to editthis part out.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Yeah, what happens?

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
okay, start over okay , how's my hair?
Good, okay.
So I'm gonna read this article.
I have part of it printed out.
For some reason it didn't allprint out, so I'm gonna start
reading from my phone.
I'll link it in the bio sopeople can read this themselves.

(01:04:12):
Print it out, send it to afriend, whatever get your
tissues, fuck all right.
One of my most vivid childhoodmemories is of my mother and
father standing at our kitchensink in winnipeg surrounded by
the last empty bottles, bigsmiles on their faces as my
mother poured each one out.
The bottles made that glug-glugnoise when the pouring is too

(01:04:36):
fast for the wide opening.
We made an occasion out of thatmoment as a family.
It was a celebration, amilestone one that my sister and
I didn't quite understand, butwe felt relief in our home.
My parents had a complicatedrelationship with alcohol, not
exactly personally, althoughthere was some of that, but
within their larger story offamily and friends.

(01:04:58):
When they converted toChristianity in their 30s, they
were under no illusions and theywere desperate to make
everything new.
They poured out all of thealcohol in the house in a grand
renunciation of the old ways,the old bondages, the old
addictions, the oldpossibilities.
They wanted something new anddifferent and better.
They were new people, a newcreation.

(01:05:19):
A new story was going to bewritten about their family.
In the old, hard drinking daysof business, my father never
veered from his Diet Coke once.
Their relationships with somefamily members became tense
because no one remembered how tohang out without a beer.
They tried not to judge others,but they knew what they knew.
To them, this wasn't even achoice to stop drinking, it was

(01:05:42):
simply who they were now.
They untethered drinking fromtheir identity and never looked
back.
It's been about 30 years sincethat decision.
Now A lot of their friends andfamily have joined them in their
temperance.
So I never saw an adult drunk inmy childhood.
To my memory, I never witnessedan excess of alcohol.
I grew up in a sober home whereadults having fun was never

(01:06:04):
linked to clinking ice cubes orlipstick stains on a wine glass.
My parents were young.
They were filled with life andjoy and hope.
Who needed alcohol?
Now, switching to my paper.
The first time I drank alcoholI was about 14 years old.
I lied to my parents and wentto a party at a friend's house
where we drank cheap red wineand those sickly sweet wine

(01:06:26):
coolers with all of the coolkids.
I remember those.
I do too.
I didn't like it much, but Ikept at it.
After all, it was worth theeffort.
Look at how I was fitting innow.
I was already smoking a pack aday, what was a bit of booze,
and a year later I had moreregrets than any 15-year-old
should have.
At 17, I decided to follow Godfor my own self.

(01:06:48):
I quit drinking as a part ofthe deal and didn't touch the
stuff for 10 years.
I decided I wanted to have winewith dinner.
Like civilized grownups, Iwanted the lovely glass of red
beside me as I read books.
I wanted to know about theworld of wine, tastes, bouquets,
tannins, regions, all of it.

(01:07:08):
Brian began to enjoy craft beer.
He would buy a six pack of beerand it would last for six
months.
I would buy a bottle of red andit would last for a week.
We sipped wine occasionally andturned the radio to NPR.
For 10 years we drank alcoholin this way occasionally, barely
and with interest.
We liked to learn about it.

(01:07:29):
We liked the world of craftbeer and wine, but slowly I
began to drink more than myhusband.
His rare growler of beer stilllasts.
But my bottle of wine on thesideboard began to disappear a
bit sooner and then the bottlebecame a bigger bottle of
cheaper variety, and then thebig bottles became a box of wine
and I kept it on the kitchencupboard.

(01:07:50):
My parents grew accustomed to mydrinking, even accepting I
never drank in front of them outof respect for their journey.
They listened to my reasoningsabout social drinking and
moderation and our freedom inChrist.
I grew to love the imagery ofwine in scripture, to see it as
an emblem of the new city and ofheavenly banquets.
I liked the sophistication ofwine, the theology of wine, the

(01:08:11):
metaphor of wine, the communityaround wine at the table.
I like the celebration ofchampagne, the warmth of a
cabernet, the summer light ofchardonnay.
Without noticing, I wasdrinking almost every night.
Now it didn't bother me in theleast.
I've learned that when you arewalking with Jesus, the Holy
Spirit is always up to somethingand when it comes to conviction

(01:08:34):
, I have found the Spirit to begentle but relentless.
Change and transformation is anongoing process.
I'm always grateful how theSpirit isn't harsh or
overwhelming, but rather how, atthe right time and in the right
moment, we know it's time tochange.
We begin to sense that thisthing that used to be okay is no
longer okay.
The thing that used to meanfreedom has become bondage.

(01:08:56):
I'm already going to startcrying.
The thing that used to signaljoy has become a possibility of
sorrow.
The thing that used to meannothing has become something,
perhaps everything, or at leastthat's what happened to me.
It was fine, everything was fine, and then I knew it wasn't
going to be fine for much longer, because a year ago I knew that

(01:09:20):
God wanted me to stop drinking,and I fought it with my reason.
Oh, I had all the excuses forwhy I could keep enjoying my
wine in the evenings.
I work hard, I give so much.
I'm not an alcoholic, I'm neverhungover, it doesn't affect my
life, it's social, it's fun.
It's in the Bible, for pity'ssake, but still I sensed that

(01:09:42):
the Spirit, the infinitepatience and rueful love waiting
for me to trust the invitation.
As I defiantly poured anotherglass of wine, I began to be
haunted by the writer of Hebrewswho said let us strip off every
weight that slows us down,especially the sin that so
easily trips us up, and let usrun with endurance the race God
has set before us.

(01:10:03):
I began to wonder why I wasresisting throwing off the
weight of alcohol, why I was sodetermined to keep running my
race with this habit that hadbegun to feel so heavy In my
soul.
I could see the Holy Spiritpractically jogging alongside of
me to say every now and thenaren't you ready to put that
heavy weight down?
Yet I think it's time youstopped this one.

(01:10:24):
It's your time to put it down.
It looks to me like it'sgetting heavier the longer you
hold on.
No, no, I'm fine, I'll justkeep going like this.
Everyone else does, it's fine,we're all fine.
I'm fine.
Look at how fine we are.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
I have to take breaks .
I'll take a break, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Maybe I'll just sit at the side of the road for a
while to catch my breath.
In my life, when it comes tothe dawning of change, it can
feel as if God presses a thumbdown on something in my life, as
if to say here, this spot, thisone, let's stay here for a
while.
I want to lean on this.
It has happened about otherhabits or dependencies or sins

(01:11:08):
or stumbles in my life as I'vefollowed Jesus.
I'm always glad for it.
This has been the source of alot stumbles in my life as I've
followed Jesus.
I'm always glad for it.
This has been the source of alot of transformation in my life
.
Something that was okaysuddenly becomes not okay, and
inside of that there is aninvitation to more shalom, more
peace, more hope, more love,more trust, more wholeness.
It's never about deprivation.

(01:11:28):
It's about becoming who we aremeant to be all along.
In the old days they used tocall this holiness or
sanctification Both words wedon't hear much because they
lost some meaning by theirmisuse.
Perhaps I do know this sort oftransformation, whatever we want
to call it, hardly ever happensall at once.
It's a slow burn and it refinesand clarifies and distills we

(01:11:51):
grow into our new choices.
I remember when I felt thatthumb pressed down on my
cynicism, for instance.
I'd become so dependent on mycynicism, on my know-it-all
tendencies, on my yeah, but whenit came to everything that I
was missing so much of life andgoodness and hope and
possibility, I felt thatchallenge from the Holy Spirit
for a year before I began inearnest to lean into the healing

(01:12:15):
, into the renewal of hope againin my life and that was one of
the hardest and best things Godhas ever done to me.
The pressing of God's thumb hasfelt like the hand of a massage
therapist to someone with knotsin their back.
Here is the knot, the pressurepoint, the source of the pain.
Knots in their back.
Here is the knot, the pressurepoint, the source of the pain,
and the pressing perhaps feelslike more pain, until it

(01:12:36):
suddenly releases an exhale andmovement.
Does that make sense?
Okay, yes, god's thumb had comedown on my drinking and I was
wriggling under the weight,resisting and bargaining and
excusing.
Conviction often begins withnoticing.
I began to see howalcohol-centric our culture has

(01:12:57):
become, to see how much of ourversion of fun revolves around
wine or beer or some form ofalcohol.
To see how unhealthy ourdependence is to see the
industry around it capitalizingand marketing and selling and
manipulating and exploiting.
I began to see what those nofun, no, no fun teetotalers what

(01:13:19):
is that?
Teetotalers a hundred years agohad seen, I guess, when they
like during the prohibition.
I think that's what she'stalking about.
How the victims of alcohol werealmost always the ones who were
most vulnerable.
How it impoverished familiesand lives, how it threw a lit

(01:13:40):
match into powder kegs oflongings.
I began to see how unhealthy itmade me feel in mind and body.
I began to read news stories Ihad somehow missed about how
alcohol was linked to so muchphysical toll in our bodies.
I began to see women of mygeneration becoming increasingly
dependent, as wine was marketedto women as the rest or the

(01:14:03):
treat they deserve for theirexhaustion and their diligence
and their selflessness.
I began to see news storieseverywhere about the rise of
women drinking.
I began to read memoirseverywhere about the rise of
women drinking.
I began to read memoirs andstories and articles from women
who had become caught indrinking too much and about how
they felt addicted and dependentand entangled almost before
they knew it.
I also began to notice how thechurch had begun to embrace

(01:14:26):
drinking as well, others of mygeneration who had also grown up
in legalism regarding orabstention, abstentation from
alcohol perhaps.
And so we're exploring theiremancipation with micro brews
and homemade wine over thicktheology books and Bible studies
and hymns things.
Then I began to wonder aboutstumbling blocks and I couldn't

(01:14:46):
seem to shake off early churchadmin admonitions to consider
one another, to give preferenceto one another's weaknesses.
Were we setting someone else up?
Were we judging the ones whoabstain as legalists?
I remembered Brennan Manning,the man who had translated the
love of God in a way that Icould receive it more than

(01:15:07):
probably any other writer wasaddicted to alcohol, and I
re-read up one of his last booksbefore he died All is Grace, a
ragamuffin memoir, where hevulnerably writes about his
battle, what his battle has costhim, even as he experienced the
unending and unconditional loveof God in the midst of it, how
he experienced regret and painand loss alongside of the love

(01:15:31):
and tenderness of God in hisdependency.
And I thought about theragamuffin for many, many days.
I began to notice my friends whowere in recovery.
I began to notice how hard itis to be in recovery, to be an
abstainer in a world of drinking, and how it was somehow just as
hard to be an abstainer in thechurch as it was outside of the

(01:15:52):
church.
I stopped posting pictures ofwine on my Instagram.
I began to wonder if I wasthinking of myself and my own
freedom more than I wasconsidering others.
I began to notice how one glassof wine almost always means two
or three.
I began to realize I was not aspecial snowflake, somehow
immune to addiction anddependence.
I began to see what was not aspecial snowflake, somehow
immune to addiction anddependence.
I began to see what my parentshad always seen, because I began

(01:16:15):
to see it in myself.
And still, the Holy Spirit satwith me, waiting for me to trust
this invitation Not tomoderation, not to legalism, not
to counting drinks oraccountability or reasonableness
.
No, I was under no illusionsthat this would be a full scale.
I was under no illusions.
This would be a full scalesurrender, laying down my

(01:16:39):
preferences and rights toembrace what just might be
something better.
I thought it would be hard.
I thought it would be awful.
I thought I would have no morefun.
I thought it would be boring.
I thought I would miss the wayalcohol softened and blurred the
hard edges of life.
I thought I was giving up somuch.
I thought I'd be an outsidernow.
I thought I'd be the odd personout in get-togethers.

(01:17:01):
I thought I wouldn't fit inanymore.
I thought I'd be perceived as alegalist.
I thought I'd be judged for myown convictions.
I thought I would miss it toomuch.
So I quit drinking Quietly,without a lot of fanfare.
It's been a while now.
I simply stopped one day and Ihaven't had anything to drink
since that day.
The surprising thing to me isthis it's been good.

(01:17:23):
I haven't missed it.
I haven't felt like an outsider.
I haven't felt longings todrink.
In fact, I have noticed that mynot drinking has given other
people permission to stop too.
I wonder if my experience hereis a grace that was given to me
once.
Once I stepped out in trust,once I said yes to the
invitation from God, I was metwith goodness.

(01:17:44):
I was prepared for struggle toquit.
I wasn't prepared for how goodI would feel in my body, in my
mind, in my soul.
It felt exactly like settingdown a weight.
I was surprised at how wide andspacious I began to feel in my
soul.
I would think do I want winetonight, and always I would
respond to myself no, I'm anon-drinker.

(01:18:04):
Drinking isn't who I am anymore.
I stopped asking myself if Iwanted to drink.
I always didn't.
I don't know where that thoughtcame from.
I have my suspicions that thatwas prompted by the Holy Spirit.
Let us strip off every weightthat slows us down, especially
the sin that so easily trips usup, and let us run with
endurance the race God has setbefore us.

(01:18:26):
I began to move freely.
Then I felt like I was flying.
My older children asked me aboutit and eventually they said Mom
, you don't buy wine anymore, doyou?
I said no, I don't.
They both smiled and one ofthem said good, I'm glad.
I don't think it's good for you, I'm glad you're like Granny

(01:18:47):
and Papa now.
I said me too.
I didn't know that my childrenwere paying much attention to me
pour that glass of wine everynight, but they were watching,
aren't they always?
So much of what we teach ourchildren is caught rather than
taught.
I still don't think drinking issin across the board.
No, it's a deeply personalchoice.

(01:19:08):
Not all sin is clear cut.
It's often deeply tied to ourmotives and our hidden choices.
I have zero judgment on anyoneelse's choices.
Conviction isn't one size fitsall.
After all, I was fine withdrinking for a really long time
until all of a sudden I wasn'tanymore.
For some people a drink is justa drink and that's okay.

(01:19:28):
But there are a lot of peoplewho know that a drink can be
dependence and distrust anddamage and danger.
I don't presume to makedecisions for anyone else.
I am wary of taking on the roleof Holy Spirit in someone
else's life.
But if it feels like a weight,imagine how free you'll be when

(01:19:48):
you lay it down.
If you're sensing theinvitation, it's not an
invitation to deprivation but aninvitation to abundance.
I think that conviction hasgotten a bit of a bad rap in the
church over the past littlewhile it's understandable we
have an overcorrection to a lotof the legalism and boundary
marker Christianity that damagedso many the behavior

(01:20:10):
modification and rulemaking andimposition of other people's
convictions onto our own souls.
But in our steering away fromlegalism, I wonder if we left
the road to holiness or begun toforget that God also cares
about what we do and how we doit, and why.
Conviction is less aboutcondemnation than it is about
invitation.
It's an invitation into freedom.

(01:20:31):
It's an invitation intowholeness.
Perhaps our choices towardsthose invitations from God are
really an intersection for ouragency or free will and the Holy
Spirit's activity.
Maybe that's where thetransformation begins.
I quit drinking because I feltlike God asked me to quit
drinking.
I've never regretted saying yesto God On a Saturday morning I

(01:20:52):
poured the last of my wine inthe house, down the sink.
I was alone, no audience for me.
I thought of my mother andfather and their brand new
believer, zell, how all of thoseyears earlier I had witnessed
the same moment in their lives.
Perhaps I was always headedtowards the same emancipation.
I'm a bit older than they wereon that day in Winnipeg when
they poured out the booze.

(01:21:13):
Then I pour out my fancy wineglass.
Then I put our fancy wineglasses away and liked how open
and clean everything looked.
Now I put the kettle on for apiece of tea, for a cup of tea.
Why did I say a piece of tea?
Um, okay, there's a little bitmore.
So.
This piece originally appearedon sarahbessiecom.

(01:21:36):
I can link it below.
It was republished withpermission.
After it was originally posted,sarah shared this update and
this is what I want to share.
This essay was about my personalexperience of journeying with
God and about how things thatare not sinful per se can become
a weight to us.
It was about drinking, but itwas also about discipleship.
It was not an essay aboutdealing with alcoholism.

(01:22:00):
I'm not an alcoholic and I wasnever an alcoholic.
That is why I could quitdrinking with such little
fanfare or suffering or processor support.
For me it was simply a matterof quality decision.
But for the people who areaddicts or in the grips of the
disease of alcoholism, or peoplewho have become dependent, you
need to know that my story hereis not prescriptive, nor is it

(01:22:24):
normative.
Most people who are strugglingwith drinking need help, and
that is a good thing, and I am abig, big, big fan of you
getting the help that you need.
In one of my books I wrote thisMiracles sometimes look like a
kapow, lightning strike,revelation, and sometimes
miracles look like showing upfor your counseling appointments
.
Sometimes miracles look likemedication and patience and
discipline.
Your story of quitting drinkingmay look like getting yourself

(01:22:45):
to Alcoholics Anonymous everysingle time the doors are open.
It will look like showing up.
It may look like counseling.
It may look like a long road ofreconciliation and forgiveness.
It may look like creating aplan for success.
It may look like a supportnetwork and accountability, and
that is good and holy.
It would deeply grieve me foranyone to read my essay and
think well shit, she quitdrinking in one decision, so why

(01:23:07):
can't I?
It is not the same thing.
You are taking on a burden thatisn't yours to bear.
There's a big differencebetween sin and addiction, but
you don't need to take on anyshame or condemnation for either
one.
If it's a sin, sure, like me,you can, in cooperation with the
Holy Spirit, pull the root out,and if it's addiction, you
might be set free instantly, andI pray for that.

(01:23:27):
But it is just as amazing andjust as miraculous for you to
put your hand up for help and tosurrender to the daily work of
sobriety.
In my mind, people who ask forhelp are heroes.
So I implore you if you arefeeling that alcohol has a hold
on you, if you feel dependent,if you know you are addicted, if
you are losing yourself, ifyou're paying the price already,
if you are tired and hungoverand miserable and longing for

(01:23:50):
freedom, please get help.
Put your hand up.
Tell someone we need you.
I promise your life is worthsaving and we'll be cheering you
on.
I love that.
So I think that last part wasreally for, like, people who
struggle with alcohol usedisorder, but the first part of
that was for people like us.

(01:24:12):
Yeah, did you almost fallasleep?

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
no, no, not at all.
I was just you and you andyou're crying.
I know I can't help, but I knowit hits close to home and I
totally get it home and Itotally get it.
But but I think a lot of us canrelate to that either part,
yeah, so that's kind of, I thinkI think that was a good way to

(01:24:38):
end it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Intention, with a lot of things matters, and I think
that if you're going to questionanything like, the first
question you should be askingyourself is why am I doing this?
That's, I think, witheverything, yeah, yeah.
Why am I reaching for thisglass of wine?
Why am I taking the shot?
Why am I doing these mushroomstonight?
Because, I will admit, in thebeginning of my journey I did

(01:25:02):
choose to do mushrooms insteadof drink with groups of people,
and now I just choose not to bearound those groups of people.
So intention matters, y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
That's all I got.
That's all I got.
And on that note stay curious,be open.
We'll see you guys on the otherside.
Bye, that was good.